I killed two with this bullet this year! Complete pass-thru on both with big exit holes. I could not be happier with the terminal performance. The Gold Dots are my go-to hunting bullet for the time being. instagram.com/p/B4pfzHEgRYz/
Good to know they’re plenty capable for deer. I haven’t hunted with my 6.5 yet but have a buddy who uses it hunting consistently for up to 650 yards...
@@JohnnysReloadingBench Any thoughts/verdict on Peterson vs Starline for AR10 platform? Going small rifle primer & was curious about whether the smaller flash hole was an advantage.
I've killed a 5x4 mule deer buck in Colorado in 2020 using this 140 gr. Gold Dot. 1 shot thru the neck @ 279 yards. The buck bed down & he just lay his head down. Clean, humane kill. No tracking just dead deer. My load was using Superformance powder 34.1 gr. Great combination in my rifle.
In my opinion this is by far the best bullet in the 6.5 Creed for hunting. Works from 25 to 400 yards. And the price is a whole lot cheaper than other “premium” bullets.
I just bought a box of 120 grain 6.5mm Gold.Dot from Midway.Feb.2020. I have just started load work up for 6.5 Grendel & 6.5 Creedmoor but expect good things!
Just read that they have a special coating on the gold dots to reduce friction and reduce copper fouling to make a more consistent shot spread. I thought they looked a little weird. I would think this will be a very popular bullet for hand loaders in next few years as the word gets out. Thank you for the video.
The gold dot has been around a long time and has enormous amount of street cred with "terminal" ballistics because a ton of l.e. departments used it pistol rounds. Great video thanks for sharing, God bless
I have a similar video on these bullets (combined with RL16) in my editing software right now. I'm going to link to yours. Your SDs came out better than mine.
I have a few hundred rounds of 120gr Gold Dots loaded in 6.5G. Good stuff. Only just started with 6.5CM when I won one and found match ammo half the cost of 6.5G. May as well give it a try. Nice presentation as always
I've shot Gold Dot LE ammo in 223 in several ARs and in a Tikka T3, and a custom Rem 7 based bolt gun. The ARs liked the 64 gr and 75 gr loads. The bolt guns shot larger groups with this ammo, which surprised me. None of my guns liked the 55 gr ammo. A POF Pilgrim AR shoots best with the 75 gr load, nearly 1 MOA. Nothing else even handloads shoots close.
Speer Impact, a bonded VLD with a BC of .646 is about to become available according to Midway soon. It has a thicker jacket construction with a Balistic Tip !
Well then sir, big big fan of bullets that hold together. Fragmentation kills in the 70s I was not a fan. Moved to Barnes Bullets have not looked back. Looks like I will be purchasing some Speer Gold Dot bullets for sure. Many half inch groups the Speer hot core bullets and past
Johnny's Reloading Bench you will like them! I picked up a couple boxes from Midsouth Shooters, they work great in Grendel with both 2000-MR and 8208XBR. Glad to see some new vids, was worried you’d forgotten about us lol.
Johnny's Reloading Bench curious, when was the last time you cleaned out the suppressor?? I know you’ve put a TON of rounds through it, it could possibly use a good douching.......
@@JohnnysReloadingBench absolutely love your work. You sold me on buying a t/c 6.5 and watched your load development it helped soooooo much due to limited compass reload experience. Just want you to know how much I appreciate you
I been shooting a new lothar walther 20 inch creedmoor barrel this week with rl16 and this bullet. It favors the starting load and hornady brass over win and rem brass. Best group was a .4, lots of groups right under and inch.
That looks like a great bullet. I am deffinalty going to get some in 30 Cal for 300 win and 308 and 3006. If they perform half that good they will be great deer medicine. Thanks Johnny I love your videos. Hope to see you soon with that 300 win mag. Thanks Johnny
Ever since you tried to duplicate the factory pistol Gold Dot loads I have been wondering when you would dive into the rifle caliber Gold Dots... I'm so glad it's finally happening and that you are having good results and confirming my suspicions that Gold Dots are GTG regardless of caliber.
I have a Aero precision M5-E1 , I wonder if you would consider a video using win 760/ h414 with a Hornady 129 grain interlock flat base...My rifle showed high pressure at 41 grains.( Starline brass, Win LR primers, seated at the book recommended 2.268 col...2820 fps I may just have a tight chamber, however headspace is OK.. I also experienced an occasional bump fire, I guess because of a too light trigger pull...Thanks
Great information! Looks like the RL 16 is excellent powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor. I just bought a TC Compass in 6.5 creedmoor and am trying to settle in on the best hunting load. That Gold Dot bullet performs great but it's hard to come by. I bought a box of the 143 gr ELD-X. Do you have any load data using the ELD-X with the RL 16 powder shot from your TC Compass?
Have you had any issues with the AR-10? Have same one, with some minor feed issues. Also, can you include a picture of your shooting bench? I really like how the rifle tracks straight back. I also have the compass, and love both of them.
shoulder pad needs to come up an inch to mitigate the recoil bounce....that and a bedding job, a few layers of card board as a cheek rest raiser, and she should be sweet......
Tell me the recipe in 308win sierra tgk 165, what is the speed before overdose? How much is the maximum download? What is the depth of the bullet landing? Thanks.
Great video! I have had great results with R15 and R17 in my 308 and 7.55x55. How temperature sensitive has R16 been for anyone reading my comment. I'm in the Toronto area so that's why I have been using H4350.
I wish I could post pictures, I just shot these rounds out of a tikka tac a1 and all the 5 round groups were under .76. My base to ogive was 2.258 and 2.268 and they all shot amazing.
I have a Browning 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel and shooting 43.0 grains of reloder 16 I get just a hair under 3000 FPS incredible 4 inches of barrel can get you. My hunting load though is Hornady 143 ELD-X, 42.0 gr RL 16, federal 210M, in Nosler brass, and that gets me 2853 FPS with a 3-5 FPS SD and groups around 0.5" at 200 yards. I love the 6.5 videos!
Please do another 6.5 Grendel video. Try the Hornady 123gr SST with AR Comp you should see really good SD numbers around 27grs+ I've got a load with SDs of 3.56
this video just gave me an idea for another video Johnny! how about you make us a powder overview recap for powders that you tried so far. pick best 3-5 for each of the calibers/bullet combinations, maybe compile a spreadsheet for us too while at it. but even w/o spreadsheet it would be great. Every time i go to the store i mean to pickup some powders that you had good success with but it doesn't happen very often and ussualy by the time i'm at the store i can't remember what powders i wanted. with spreadsheet i'll just download it onto my phone and keep it there for when i'm at shop again. maybe make it an annual or semi-annual thing - a 'special powder recap' video by JRB
What's your thoughts on these as a cheap accubond alternative? The federal fusion/ Buckmaster factory ammo is marketed as a "deer" bullet but these seem to hold together better than accubond which is a popular elk size bullet.
Your chamfer on the case mouth is minimal at best, you need to make it much deeper as the chamfer acts like a bullet guide into the case mouth. Also, notice how the front sling swivel is digging into the bag on the front rest? This front sling swivel is taking away from potential accuracy, and of course by now you have learned that the lab radar is better than the magneto speed hanging on the barrel for shooting groups.
Would you shoot some of your 6.5 creedmoor bullets through something like a pork shoulder with the bone in it? I used the Hornady 143 grain eldx on a mule deer this year and when it hit the front shoulder it basically exploded and had no more penetration. Would love to see that test across several bullets to see how the compare. Would even donate some to see something like that tested.
If you're going for shoulder shots I would use a monolithic bullet like a Barnes or a bonded bullet. Regardless of caliber. Shoulders are funky and can blow up a lot of bullets
I really love your compass. I would love to build a compass in 308 like you built your 6.5. they have extended thier sale so I hope I can buy one. I think I'm going to sell my recoding studio and do a huge upgrade my reloading room and a few firearms. I could have bought a house for what I put into my studio. The equipment is only worth a 1/4 of what I paid for it. I hope I can get enough to get my reloading room to back to what it was before my dad died. Thanks for the great videos that you make. I hope to make my videos as professional as yours. Happy Shooting
I shot a lot of these into lined up gallon jugs of water from creedmoor at 100 and 200 yards. They come out perfect mushrooms around .7 or so across and weighing 130 to 133gr. Very consistent.
Your chamfer is not very deep, cut the chamfer almost out to the outside edge. The chamfer is actually a "bullet guide". The front sling swivel is centered right on the front bag, and this really wreaks havoc with accuracy.
hopefully your Peterson brass works out for you better than mine has! my Peterson Fat-neck brass is way too soft and primer pockets loosened up to the point where they are junk or questionable if they should even be reloaded after only 3 loadings of mainly mild loads and one loading that was close to max published but still below. Contacted them and after going through my data they said maybe just try the small rifle primer version instead. I don't know if I'll be buying any of their brass again after this and their suggestions but I'll certainly be watching to see how this brass works out for you and see what you think of it. as always Johnny a great video and thanks for your contribution
Its only a single deer... But a stiff load of AR-comp in the Grendel with a 120GD bullet totally exploded in a deer this year. The load was honest 3/4MOA loading.Shot was from above @ 75 ish yards quartering slightly away. Impact was centered in lungs 3" above center. NO BONES impacted... The deer was a quite large specimen at 227# 3days after hanging. Bullet went BETWEEN ribs, blew a 2" hole thru the lungs but did not "pulp" them as expected. bullet exploded leaving paunch, and large intestines shredded. Deer was recovered, but traveled some distance.I wont be using them again.
Choronzon 12 wouldn’t be much difference if any to the 6.5CM in velocity or accuracy unless he went with a 260AI or 260Terminator, then he would see a 100-200fps jump in velocities.
308 guy as do I, but honestly things like 308win, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 30-06 Springfield, etc have had so much written/videod/posted about them it’s crazy. Mind you, because of it’s massive popularity over the past decade, the same can now be said for the various .264/6.5mm calibers. Personally I would love to see some precision load development done for a 6mm cartridge, or maybe some big bore AR10 stuff, like .358 Winchester!
What ya hunting tanks, elk seem to be tough as tanks or moose, but to use on deer sized game is completely ridiculous or chase away trying to find them, and my rifle does not shoot them accurate and the sectional density is way to high unless your after the big criders, but the velocity has to be alot faster at 2850 or so but have good luck.
I would love to see what they do to deer sized game, thanks for sharing
I killed two with this bullet this year! Complete pass-thru on both with big exit holes. I could not be happier with the terminal performance. The Gold Dots are my go-to hunting bullet for the time being. instagram.com/p/B4pfzHEgRYz/
Good to know they’re plenty capable for deer. I haven’t hunted with my 6.5 yet but have a buddy who uses it hunting consistently for up to 650 yards...
Thanks for reviewing this bullet and showing the expansion
@@JohnnysReloadingBench Any thoughts/verdict on Peterson vs Starline for AR10 platform? Going small rifle primer & was curious about whether the smaller flash hole was an advantage.
I've killed a 5x4 mule deer buck in Colorado in 2020 using this 140 gr. Gold Dot. 1 shot thru the neck @ 279 yards. The buck bed down & he just lay his head down. Clean, humane kill. No tracking just dead deer. My load was using Superformance powder 34.1 gr. Great combination in my rifle.
In my opinion this is by far the best bullet in the 6.5 Creed for hunting. Works from 25 to 400 yards. And the price is a whole lot cheaper than other “premium” bullets.
I just bought a box of 120 grain 6.5mm Gold.Dot from Midway.Feb.2020. I have just started load work up for 6.5 Grendel & 6.5 Creedmoor but expect good things!
Just read that they have a special coating on the gold dots to reduce friction and reduce copper fouling to make a more consistent shot spread.
I thought they looked a little weird. I would think this will be a very popular bullet for hand loaders in next few years as the word gets out. Thank you for the video.
Nice shooting. The little TC Compass continues to impress!
I knew that I would be spending money after watching this video. Great video as always Johnny!
Two videos in the same day. Mana from heaven!
The gold dot has been around a long time and has enormous amount of street cred with "terminal" ballistics because a ton of l.e. departments used it pistol rounds. Great video thanks for sharing, God bless
Wow. Those are beautiful mushrooms. Maximum expansion with retained weight.
If you care to get rid of the stuck gel you can heat the bullets with a lighter and it'll melt out. You won't melt the lead before the gel drips out.
Would love to see a load work up and gel test for the Hornady 160 grain interlock for the 6.5 creedmoor. Thanks keep these awesome videos coming!!
I have a similar video on these bullets (combined with RL16) in my editing software right now. I'm going to link to yours. Your SDs came out better than mine.
I've shot the 120g GD in creedmoor shoots amazing! 1/2"-1" groups @2900-3015fps with reloader 16
I have a few hundred rounds of 120gr Gold Dots loaded in 6.5G. Good stuff. Only just started with 6.5CM when I won one and found match ammo half the cost of 6.5G. May as well give it a try.
Nice presentation as always
I've shot Gold Dot LE ammo in 223 in several ARs and in a Tikka T3, and a custom Rem 7 based bolt gun. The ARs liked the 64 gr and 75 gr loads. The bolt guns shot larger groups with this ammo, which surprised me. None of my guns liked the 55 gr ammo. A POF Pilgrim AR shoots best with the 75 gr load, nearly 1 MOA. Nothing else even handloads shoots close.
Speer Impact, a bonded VLD with a BC of .646 is about to become available according to Midway soon. It has a thicker jacket construction with a Balistic Tip !
Well then sir, big big fan of bullets that hold together. Fragmentation kills in the 70s I was not a fan. Moved to Barnes Bullets have not looked back. Looks like I will be purchasing some Speer Gold Dot bullets for sure. Many half inch groups the Speer hot core bullets and past
I've been a Speer Grand Slam guy for decades.....I may be changing over to these bad boys
Speer does offer a 120 grain in 6.5mm gold dot.
You're right! Can't believe I overlooked it. I'll definitely pick some up for the Grendel. Thanks!
Johnny's Reloading Bench you will like them! I picked up a couple boxes from Midsouth Shooters, they work great in Grendel with both 2000-MR and 8208XBR. Glad to see some new vids, was worried you’d forgotten about us lol.
Johnny's Reloading Bench curious, when was the last time you cleaned out the suppressor?? I know you’ve put a TON of rounds through it, it could possibly use a good douching.......
@@JohnnysReloadingBench They work great in my Grendel. I use Leverevolution powder and BR4 primers A fine hunting round
@@JohnnysReloadingBench absolutely love your work. You sold me on buying a t/c 6.5 and watched your load development it helped soooooo much due to limited compass reload experience. Just want you to know how much I appreciate you
I been shooting a new lothar walther 20 inch creedmoor barrel this week with rl16 and this bullet. It favors the starting load and hornady brass over win and rem brass. Best group was a .4, lots of groups right under and inch.
That looks like a great bullet. I am deffinalty going to get some in 30 Cal for 300 win and 308 and 3006. If they perform half that good they will be great deer medicine. Thanks Johnny I love your videos. Hope to see you soon with that 300 win mag. Thanks Johnny
I would like to see them make it in.284 maybe next year!!! Great shooting!!!
Ever since you tried to duplicate the factory pistol Gold Dot loads I have been wondering when you would dive into the rifle caliber Gold Dots... I'm so glad it's finally happening and that you are having good results and confirming my suspicions that Gold Dots are GTG regardless of caliber.
These are my new favorites I just shot some last weekend. 3/4 moa in my savage. Which is really good with me behind the rifle.
The different colored jacket is from the factory HBN coating.
How do you find the target number with the bullet comparator? I have not been using mine because I dont know how to find the correct measurements.
I feel like it’s Christmas with a double posting
Interested in fort Scott munition 6.5 . Any thoughts ?
I have a Aero precision M5-E1 , I wonder if you would consider a video using win 760/ h414 with a Hornady 129 grain interlock flat base...My rifle showed high pressure at 41 grains.( Starline brass, Win LR primers, seated at the book recommended 2.268 col...2820 fps I may just have a tight chamber, however headspace is OK.. I also experienced an occasional bump fire, I guess because of a too light trigger pull...Thanks
Great information! Looks like the RL 16 is excellent powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor. I just bought a TC Compass in 6.5 creedmoor and am trying to settle in on the best hunting load. That Gold Dot bullet performs great but it's hard to come by. I bought a box of the 143 gr ELD-X. Do you have any load data using the ELD-X with the RL 16 powder shot from your TC Compass?
Have you had any issues with the AR-10? Have same one, with some minor feed issues. Also, can you include a picture of your shooting bench? I really like how the rifle tracks straight back. I also have the compass, and love both of them.
shoulder pad needs to come up an inch to mitigate the recoil bounce....that and a bedding job, a few layers of card board as a cheek rest raiser, and she should be sweet......
Tell me the recipe in 308win sierra tgk 165, what is the speed before overdose? How much is the maximum download? What is the depth of the bullet landing? Thanks.
Great video! I have had great results with R15 and R17 in my 308 and 7.55x55. How temperature sensitive has R16 been for anyone reading my comment. I'm in the Toronto area so that's why I have been using H4350.
I wish I could post pictures, I just shot these rounds out of a tikka tac a1 and all the 5 round groups were under .76. My base to ogive was 2.258 and 2.268 and they all shot amazing.
I have a Browning 6.5 Creedmoor with a 26" barrel and shooting 43.0 grains of reloder 16 I get just a hair under 3000 FPS incredible 4 inches of barrel can get you. My hunting load though is Hornady 143 ELD-X, 42.0 gr RL 16, federal 210M, in Nosler brass, and that gets me 2853 FPS with a 3-5 FPS SD and groups around 0.5" at 200 yards. I love the 6.5 videos!
Please do another 6.5 Grendel video.
Try the Hornady 123gr SST with AR Comp you should see really good SD numbers around 27grs+ I've got a load with SDs of 3.56
I am just starting building a Grendel AR and would like more Grendel videos but i appreciate all of Johnny's videos no matter what the caliber.
as soon as this video was posted I put that on his FB page
The .223 SGD's are good on coyote pelts too.
Love your videos
Think this might be worth trying. I’d be interested to see if you try this with the other powders.
this video just gave me an idea for another video Johnny! how about you make us a powder overview recap for powders that you tried so far. pick best 3-5 for each of the calibers/bullet combinations, maybe compile a spreadsheet for us too while at it. but even w/o spreadsheet it would be great. Every time i go to the store i mean to pickup some powders that you had good success with but it doesn't happen very often and ussualy by the time i'm at the store i can't remember what powders i wanted. with spreadsheet i'll just download it onto my phone and keep it there for when i'm at shop again. maybe make it an annual or semi-annual thing - a 'special powder recap' video by JRB
Soaking those projectiles in boiling water should dissolve any retained gel.
Very impressive results.
Cheers ol' mate
🇦🇺 🍺🍺
I know that is a defense round, but I imagine it would be fantastic on smaller bodied whitetail.
These BulletS are impressive (going off several reviews) You should load these light and shoot them in gel to simulate 500ish yards
What's your thoughts on these as a cheap accubond alternative? The federal fusion/ Buckmaster factory ammo is marketed as a "deer" bullet but these seem to hold together better than accubond which is a popular elk size bullet.
I think those bullets are the one federal uses in the Fusion. You should compare and see.
Jimhans 1 maybe your right have you seen the new 300prc from hornady looks interesting
I does. There's a lot of competition in the 30 cal too. Should be interesting.
Nice job Johnny. I should shoot that for Missouri gun season. Looks like 42.5 if R16 is the cat's meow in the compass. God bless ya brother.
I never seen a semiauto bolt action before, where I get one?!?
Your chamfer on the case mouth is minimal at best, you need to make it much deeper as the chamfer acts like a bullet guide into the case mouth. Also, notice how the front sling swivel is digging into the bag on the front rest? This front sling swivel is taking away from potential accuracy, and of course by now you have learned that the lab radar is better than the magneto speed hanging on the barrel for shooting groups.
Do u reload for people? And also could u test the Winchester extreme point bullets?
So what do you think of the Peterson brass?
Why did you shoot the gel block from 10 yards?
What is the worst group you've had with that compass? I think I have watched them all and don't remember any bad groups. I also Like the new stock.
What is the barrel length on the Aero precision/BA ?
Just loaded my first 6.5mm cm loads, I got rings on my bullets with the rcbs dies:(...
Did you clean your dies / take them apart to inspect?
Would you shoot some of your 6.5 creedmoor bullets through something like a pork shoulder with the bone in it? I used the Hornady 143 grain eldx on a mule deer this year and when it hit the front shoulder it basically exploded and had no more penetration. Would love to see that test across several bullets to see how the compare. Would even donate some to see something like that tested.
If you're going for shoulder shots I would use a monolithic bullet like a Barnes or a bonded bullet. Regardless of caliber. Shoulders are funky and can blow up a lot of bullets
What dies do you use for your 6.5 creedmoor
I really love your compass. I would love to build a compass in 308 like you built your 6.5. they have extended thier sale so I hope I can buy one. I think I'm going to sell my recoding studio and do a huge upgrade my reloading room and a few firearms. I could have bought a house for what I put into my studio. The equipment is only worth a 1/4 of what I paid for it. I hope I can get enough to get my reloading room to back to what it was before my dad died. Thanks for the great videos that you make. I hope to make my videos as professional as yours. Happy Shooting
Do a video for speer deep and berrys for 50ae with h110 and blue dot
Could you do a video of these in the gel at 200 yards with the Compass? That would be great!
I shot a lot of these into lined up gallon jugs of water from creedmoor at 100 and 200 yards. They come out perfect mushrooms around .7 or so across and weighing 130 to 133gr. Very consistent.
Pretty sure the Fusion ammunition is loaded with the Gold Dot.
I think it looks similar on the outside, but I wonder about the inside. I haven't found any fed fusion ammo that shoots good in anything.
I must have missed it in your videos. Are you crimping the AR-10? Or just using neck tension? Thanks.
Crimp not required
Where've ya been, Johnny??
Your chamfer is not very deep, cut the chamfer almost out to the outside edge. The chamfer is actually a "bullet guide". The front sling swivel is centered right on the front bag, and this really wreaks havoc with accuracy.
Woooohoooo! 6.5 creed video! Grendel vids coming soon too? #fingerscrossed
Holy smokes the flash holes are different in the two pieces of brass. Maby Its an optical illusion.
Finallllllllllly.....my fix
hopefully your Peterson brass works out for you better than mine has!
my Peterson Fat-neck brass is way too soft and primer pockets loosened up to the point where they are junk or questionable if they should even be reloaded after only 3 loadings of mainly mild loads and one loading that was close to max published but still below. Contacted them and after going through my data they said maybe just try the small rifle primer version instead.
I don't know if I'll be buying any of their brass again after this and their suggestions but I'll certainly be watching to see how this brass works out for you and see what you think of it.
as always Johnny a great video and thanks for your contribution
NICE!
Good video. Get some 120 gn and get a grendel video. Thanks
Its only a single deer... But a stiff load of AR-comp in the Grendel with a 120GD bullet totally exploded in a deer this year. The load was honest 3/4MOA loading.Shot was from above @ 75 ish yards quartering slightly away. Impact was centered in lungs 3" above center. NO BONES impacted... The deer was a quite large specimen at 227# 3days after hanging. Bullet went BETWEEN ribs, blew a 2" hole thru the lungs but did not "pulp" them as expected. bullet exploded leaving paunch, and large intestines shredded. Deer was recovered, but traveled some distance.I wont be using them again.
Question I have a 6.5 compass did you bed yours in the Boyds stock?
very nice info... SD. very low..
When are you gonna shoot something other than 6.5
Or maybe start reloading 260 Remington.
308 guy 6.5 is the new .30cal for the 21st century.
Choronzon 12 wouldn’t be much difference if any to the 6.5CM in velocity or accuracy unless he went with a 260AI or 260Terminator, then he would see a 100-200fps jump in velocities.
I like 6.5 but i like other calibers to
308 guy as do I, but honestly things like 308win, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 30-06 Springfield, etc have had so much written/videod/posted about them it’s crazy.
Mind you, because of it’s massive popularity over the past decade, the same can now be said for the various .264/6.5mm calibers. Personally I would love to see some precision load development done for a 6mm cartridge, or maybe some big bore AR10 stuff, like .358 Winchester!
That T/C shoots!
6.5 CM...still doing exactly what the 6.5x55 has been doing for 125 years...😴
In a short action?
Yeah, with lower prices, higher accuracy, more options as far as rifles go and higher popularity
Time for the light bullets in 6.5 and 223
That speer sheet looks like 2.700 coal
Is that right?
1
ha ha mine says no views too but you beat me
What ya hunting tanks, elk seem to be tough as tanks or moose, but to use on deer sized game is completely ridiculous or chase away trying to find them, and my rifle does not shoot them accurate and the sectional density is way to high unless your after the big criders, but the velocity has to be alot faster at 2850 or so but have good luck.