They have a 450 class so I think it’s fair that anything under the 450cc should be able to race that class especially in pro but the problem is if Honda or KTM made a 325cc 2 stroke then they would easily win. Why is this concise red not fair? Because a 325 2 stroke would be to fast for the 450 4 stroke. That tells us right there that the 4 strokes are not competitive and not true racing machines. You can hear it just listening to the engine as well as watching a race
Best 4T vs 2T comparo ever. These power numbers make me think they were dynoed at the P.C. dyno, which is my reference point. It's amazing how 250 2T can squeeze so much horsepower these days. Before power valves and reed induction (and now fuel injection), 25-30 hp would be a rocket! Excellent!
Except they left the peak torque numbers out as always. Were the 2 stroke absolutely decimate the 4 strokes. Peak power anyways. 4 stroke just has a flat torque curve giving it the illusion of torque.
Totally agree with you. I have been riding a 250 250sx and it's just an absolute blast, probably not as fast but just makes every ride fun and at the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
Part of motocross was to try and master the 2 stroke. Electric bikes could blow both of these away but we are getting away from what motocross is which is what we did with adding 4 strokes. Just because they are racing does not make them a true race bike. The 2 stroke are the true motocross bikes
I'm a two stroke guy. That being said, it's mainly because I'm a vintage guy. My whole deal with two strokes and vintage bikes is that if you can learn to be fast on something with less suspension and more erratic power, just think how fast you'll be on something with linear power and good suspension.
i strongly agree with that and you can also argue that riding a two stroke especially a 125 will make you much more comfortable with using your clutch in the right places, also there’s no engine braking it’s 100% manual
Totally agree. I grew up a 2-stroke guy: Husky & CZ 250's and the suspension back in the late 60's-early 70's kept us from truly using all that power effectively. I haven't rode an MX bike in a while and would love to hop on a new KTM 250SX 2-stroke to see how far they've come suspension-wise and being able to manage the power. Looks as though they're MILES apart...in a good way. I wouldn't be racing at this point, so the 250SX sounds good to me.
I think its a good fit cause I'm similar in my love of 2stroke but I'm also 40 not 17.. so something that's smooth & capable but still a smoker is perfect.. I would roll with a sx.125 tho... I plan on getting a new 1 once I sell my house. My kid needs a new one as well
It's interesting that when a 4 stroke passes by, the exhaust sounds AND smells bad...the 2 stroke smells GOOD and sounds good (to me). The simplicity of the 2 stroke is where I think it's always going to rule. 4 strokes just have too many parts.
Just a recreational rider, but my experience matches your take exactly. The 2 stroke is just a more lively ride, it feels like you're going faster, the snap is exhilarating, and the sound just adds to the fun. The four stroke bikes can sometimes hide your flaws in technique and hold corners better but are missing the x factor of the 2 stroke. At my old age i now only ride trails on 450. Ive settled down a lot and ride more lazy now and the torque makes this so easy to do, but i can still enjoy the grunt in short bursts when its appropriate. Good video, good reviews, I say pick the one you will win with if youre racing, and pick the one that will make you smile more if you're not.
I have 2022.5 250 Rockstar and the 2023 TC250, so similar comparison on the Husky side. I would say try to match your talent/skill level to the horsepower. The 250 two stroke still hits harder, so you will have more fun if you have the skill to not wheelie out of ruts when there is traction and the skill not to slide out of control when its slick. The 250 four stroke is more forgiving and would be "better" for someone still learning. I ended up using the rockstar for Moto and then set up the TC for woods and hard enduro. These new TBI engines are really awesome, and it works great off road with the stock Moto engine set up.
I am a new subscriber to your channel - I ride a 2023 KTM SX 250 ( pre mix ) lol a 21 KTM factory edition 450 , 92 KTM MX 500 ( aka The Hulk ) and a 89 KTM EXC 350 2 stroke !!! I love this comparison video and must say my 2023 250 w/o doubt is the best bike I have ever ridden / raced - really enjoyed your commentating and remarks etc - thank you for such great content
Great debate. And thank you so much for not comparing a 250 2-stroke to a 450 4-stroke!!! It's great to see a proper comparison instead of one bike vs a cheater bike. I hope these conversations help rewrite the rules of motorX that have disadvantaged 2-strokes into nonexistence. It is such a complex debate. It's not just about horsepower & weight because many riders STILL prefer 4-strokes. Rider comfort, power delivery, user friendliness, clutch/throttle manipulation, traction, and fun factor are all just as important. I really like to see the advances in TBI 2-stroke technology bridge the gap between 2T & 4T. I would really like to see 2Ts be competitive again in motorX. The new TBI technology is helping 2Ts gain the advantages that made many riders move to 4Ts. I just hope it can be refined in time before motorX moves to electric😅
The 2 stroke has to be more powerful than the 4 stroke. Not sure what they are saying. This is why they changed the classes and made a pro 250 and 450 class because the 4 strokes where no where close in power. I think all motocross race classes should be based on the motors cubic inch. If it’s a 250 then it races a 250 class. If the 4 stroke can’t win in that class then to bad.
That’s why they have factory teams to handle that issue give these bike to the privateers and we’ll see David and Goliath battles every time. They definitely belong in their OWN Class and if not Change it to the “250f Class” so that there is no confusion or controversy🤦♂️ True 250 Class enough said 💪
@@eric6rock I wasn’t sure if they still had works bikes so now that I see that they do they need to give rides to the top 20 riders. Maybe 4 per team. This will help the sport and make it much better for the fans. There’s a hero out there but maybe he just doesn’t have the money so they need to have scouts as well as testing centers for riders to be watched and clocked to see if they really may have what it takes
@@joellarsson9486 Just a little lesson! The 4 stroke that was allowed in the first pro race was 200cc large than a 250 at 450cc. They allowed 4 strokes to race but they had to race in a lower class to compete. There is no way that a Honda CRF 250 would be able to beat the Honda CR250 or any 2 stroke 250 for that matter. If you just look at the specs on the bikes you clearly see the 2 strokes with an advantage which is why the AMA changed the ruling in the classes because it was the only way they could bring in this market of 4 strokes. I’m defending our incredible sport by wanting true race bikes in there racing which are 2 strokes. We are getting away from what this sport is all about. They now have electric bikes that could smoke the crap out of every bike but as you can see the sport doesn’t want them in there. We need to stick with the sport and support them bringing 2 strokes back. The e excitement level would be unreal and you would see incredible racing
One key thing I noticed testing both the 250 4t and new TBI 2t back to back was the lug-ability of the new 2t’s and the anti-stall character of the mapping. Its so good that I think the 2t is better than the 4t from a clutch use standpoint. I found that I was having to get into the clutch way too much on the 4t. Where as I could do 3 complete laps in a row with better exit speed out of corners without ever even touching the clutch (no clutch use at all) on the TBI 250 2t. So if you’re trying to save $ on cheaper rebuilds and less frequent clutch use, the TBI 2t’s are in some ways better than a 4t with a rekluse radius CX. It was easier to ride the TBI 2t without the clutch, than it was to ride the 4t with a radius CX on the moto track. Less clutch burn = less racing cost. And the power was way better IMO on the 2t.
So I guess one important piece of this debate has to be tuning and competition running costs. I mean I guess for the average hobby rider the bike really doesn't matter at all. Carson Brown is gonna blast by you in 1970s Husqvarna with 3 inch suspension any day. But i think when it comes to semi professional to professional racing the two stroke has something to offer. It's just so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper and easier to modify. With the fuel injection you can literally swap pipes next to the track upload a different mapping and have a totally transformed bike. You can still to this day do a lot with a Dremel and some knowledge about porting. I think it would give the smaller teams a better shot against the big spenders
I find it way more difficult to ride a 4 stroke for one main reason, engine braking. I can not for the life of me get used to engine braking, always catches me off gaurd. I prefer small bore 2 strokes but to each his own
i'm a dirt bike guy. i rebuild busted rusted mistreated bikes in a box. i blow my paychecks on rocky mountain. i follow my dirt bike youtubers. you couldn't pay me to watch supercross with 4 strokes. the sound doesn't make my heart beat. if im a dirt bike darrell and you can't sell me the pinnacle of the sport imagine the likelihood of barbra from HR tuning into the Peacock for a week 6 SX. until 2 strokes are back and featured on supercross, the casual fans will never be back and it will be in the bargain bin of televised sport in the US. i mean....look at the explosion of hard enduro. you're talking about a sport that has little to no televised or nationally televised attention and it's booming on social media. even the gncc where most of the pros are riding 4 strokes, there's still 1000 2 strokes hitting the line in a weekend. howards hole and the iron man hill climb are attracting crowds the wnba would kill for. if the planets no concern, and it's all buisness, the 2 strokes need to be featured again.
@@davidmolyneux7284 yes i've ridden them both? modern 4 strokes are fantastic machines that have come a million miles in the last 20 years and superior machines in most ways. the sound of 30 angry bees when the gates drop will always be better television
I went from the 250sxf to the 300sx and it made me a better faster rider. Ironically because it punishes me if my posture is wrong, it has trained me to ride properly and now i can ride it harder longer than a 4t.
Too bad the AMA and those that influence them are antiquated in their ways of thinking about displacement. Allowing 250 2T in the 250 class for pro racing should allow for more competition from privateers that can’t pay for the full factory motor Hp, high cost rebuilds, etc.
250 2-stroke vs a 250 4-stoke, 2 strokes are faster, lighter and much easier to rebuild and maintain. 250 2-stroke vs a 450 4-stroke, the 4-stroke makes better power over a wider rpm range. Only a girl would pick a 250 4-stroke over a 2-stroke.
Love the vid and both perspectives you guys have im a new rider I’ve only ridden 125s before but I wanna upgrade and get a 250 which should I choose 2 stroke or 4 stroke I’m not gonna race or get competitive I just wanna get better and have fun and hit trails or the woods if you could get back to me ?
It sucks all the the other sanctions run a true 250 class 2- Stroke and 4-Stroke are permitted to race each other. Honda is a big proponent of not allowing 250 2-St in the 250 class. It would be cool to see many different Displacements allowed and of course cannot surpass their respective class they are in 250 or 450. They allowed the 350 before why can they do that and not have the 300 in!? AMA Sucks the transition years were pretty cool, 02-05 different types of bikes running. Their should be a true 250 class if not deem it the “250f” class then 🤦♂️
Government regulations forced the transition into 4-stroke, I remember this when it happened during the 2000s. Also I ran big bore bikes to train and get better for the 250s. You always need to learn the track's condition regardless if you race and will get tired quickly if you don't nail it down. An experienced rider can beat a 2-stroke if that person on the 4-stroke is better. I perfer 2-stroke any day.
I'm Team both 2 Stroke & 4 Stroke ! because they both have there advantages . I race and like 2 stroke on tight tracks, and 4. stroke on long tracks . If you can only have one bike then a 2 stroke would be preferred because of cost to operate.
Wow its amazing.how far the 4Ts have come... 47 bhp is incredible. I had an xr250 which was a great bike but it could have done with a little.more power. I know its an old bike by todays standards. Then i got an rmz250 which was drastically more powerful. It really depends what you're doing though, like you mention its much more tiring fighting with the 450s wearing yourself out all day instead of just focusing on getting round the track. Great review 👏
I have a 19 150sx and a crf250r 2006 which have around the same power and I feel the ktm is just straight up more fun but you have to dance around in the gears and the powerband more. Not gonna compare handling since the Honda is way older the Honda still rips tho!
i loved this video, but you can't race straight displacement at most tracks afaik. so it's kind of a pipe dream. I do like the idea of the 300 or 350 (bore kit?) 2T in open or vet classes.
I love the take on being able to ride the bikes to their potential. Yes 2t are so much fun, but I’ve personally never met or seen someone besides pros ride it to its limits. Being able to ride a slower bike fast is fun in itself.
Ive test ridden a TE300 and FE350 2024 back to back. The 300 had better front end feel, more planted and more grip. Ive always been told 4 strokes have better front end feel. I did not have that experience at all. The terrain we rode was hard pack and slippery
Most important thing you never covered . Forget best! The only thing one must make in his/her decision is two strokes cant legally ride on the roads :{ I've never ridden a 4 stroke but I'm looking at the 350 EXC-F and upgrade it to the max. Grew up on Yamaha YZ's 80', 250's two strokes Honda 500, Husqvarna 490 I think it was, but Ill have to switch to a 4 stroke so I can ride anywhere and any rally. Yes im old.
Not much experience on a two stroke here. But personally, the big jumps can be sketchy on the 2T. While riding borrowed bikes, I have had unexpected nose high or nose low leaps. I think it’s from the power delivery being not as smooth.
I have a 23 125 and compared to the 2022 ktm 125sx i have noticed that there is a much less powerful power band but there is more buttom end. Carbs for the win
I have owned both. One huge consideration is the top end on each. The two-stroke is so much cheaper and easier to replace parts. If something goes wrong on the four-stroke, you are looking at a huge bill because it will take out valves and cylinder.
350 is my next move raced both 250f’s and 450’s and always felt a little less confident on the 450’s when tired at the end of motos and 250’s always wanted more low end im lazy I want to lug so I hope the 350 even if I have to do some mods hits my niche for being a weekend guy now
I agree the racing classes should change. I think we should eliminate the 450 class. The bikes are too damn powerful. When I was younger on a Honda 450 I was blown away at the power and always thought it was stupid to have that much power. The only place I could see it really worth it would be maybe like desert racing. Now I'm old and fat and the 300 2t is my favorite bike. As for racing I think maybe a 250 class with 2 or 4 strokes and a 350 class allowing 300 or 350 2 strokes.
For me the 2 strokes all day long. I own the KTM TPI-xcw. Grew up on 2 strokes. Had a Yamaha WR 4 stroke for a while. Don’t like the engine breaking on a 4 stroke.Penton, real Husky’s, CZ’s, Montessa, now KTM, Gas Gas.
For 250 class absolutely not we have a yz250f and yz250 and the 2 stroke smokes the yz250f in speed and lap times, the 2 stroke has may more power output in high end 125 vs 250f and 250 and 450f classes
250 two stroke should compete against 250 4strokes. The cc handicap is nuts! Even the early generation 4strokes won races and think about the difference between those bikes and the modern 4strokes
Markets don’t lie: 4 strokes get slaughtered in price the second you get it off the lot. People can say what they want, price shows everyone’s preference.
For a moto track, 4 strokes are easier to ride for a longer time. However, off road, racing & trails, 2 strokes are better and easier to ride for longer.
I also agree that 250s should ride against 250s whether or not they’re two stroke or four stroke because they’re both about the same. Maybe not the same but you can’t put a 250 2 stroke up against a 454 stroke. Not if you wanna be competitive.
I love my 2 stroke but if i was racing for cash im taking the 4 stroke. Id take electric if theyd allow it. Racing is all about giving yourself the grestest advantage, if that means 0.05 seconds faster then so be it.
This is what I have always hated about California dirt bike mags. They bullshit and lie; "the four stroke is better because it is slower and the average rider can almost ride it to its full potential". Just think about that idiotic statement. Don't we want to ride the best bike? Well, the two stroke, given the same amount of time and money put into the development will always beat the four stroke. It is just that simple. The development of four stroke racing dirt bikes was a political decision to have "less pollution" by a bunch of scared board members and owners of dirt bike companies.
@@stevesmith756 Manufacturers have always had the technology to make ridiculously fast 2 stroke MX bikes but it was deemed too dangerous to employ their road racing technology into MX as a simple primitive 500 cc 2-stroke engines are fast enough for MX. 4-stroke MX engines are cutting edge toned down f1 and road racing technology. Yamaha when developing the first competitive 4-stroke MX bike looked to their old f1 car technology and their YZ400F was basically a single-cylinder of their Yamaha OX11A 3.0 V10 F1 engine lol after that, all the Manufacturers followed suit. Back in the 80's and 90's though all the Manufacturers and especially HRC was getting 200 to 250 BHP out of their 2-stroke 500cc race bikes that's 400 to 500 BHP per litre no naturally asperated 4 stroke could ever make that sort of power. even today 1000cc to 1100 4 stroke race bikes are only making 230 to 250 bhp.
they left the peak torque numbers out as always. Were the 2 stroke absolutely decimate the 4 strokes. Peak power anyways. 4 stroke just has a flat torque curve giving it the illusion of torque. Thats why the 4 stroke always have better traction. A 250 2t generally lays down around mid 30s lbft peak power torque only a few numbers off a 450 4t. That's PEAK power not overall the 450 flat average torque across the power range is much better than the 2t But the 250 4t are only around 20 lbft
They have a lot more engine torque, but not that much more wheel torque, and that's what accelerates the bike. A 250 Smoker is done at 8,500RPM, which means to go the same speed per gear as a 250F that revs to 13k+, it needs to have taller gearing, which reduces wheel torque. It's why a Harley can have some crazy torque number on the dyno but is relatively slow on the track; it' doesn't rev high, so it needs much taller gearing to go the same speed, hence why it accelerates slower than say a high revving 600cc inline four. It's how you can have a 50% disparity in torque on the dyno and still end up with bikes that are pretty closely matched.
Follow the money, suck up to the governing bodies and their stupid regulations lobby-ed by Yamaha, who truly started all the 4 stroke B.S. movement. All that to still have Europa as the better builder of cross bikes.
This is how the racing should have started when 4stroke mx bikes started racing. How they thought it was fair 450 4strokes against 250 2strokes was what ruined alot of manufacturers stop developing or even building 250 2strokes. Even now 300cc 2bangas aren't aloud to race 450 4strokes. Sounds like they did it on purpose so they could make more money because of parts needed and repair costs. Extreme and hard enduro are almost always 2strokes. More fun on them. Avagud1
Not when you’re going against factory riders no mercy for the 4 strokes, the 250 2ts should race against 250fs in their respective class. Hell this would be a lot of fun for incoming pros for Yamaha or KTM Group factory riders picking their Power output but not displacement. Not only they would sell more bikes but racing would be a lot more fun and really based on talent and picking the right tool for the job thus making each bike viable.
The 250 sxf actually has 47 horsepower. If ktm says so it is true its their bike they have a Dyno too in their factory and engine etc etc. Its not 45. Or 44.5 its 47. Said and done boys. Dont believe Dynos on TH-cam if ktm has one too and they've got 47 hp on it.❤
HP output depends on the dyno used. It is not useful to compare two bikes on two different dynos. MXA dyno'd all of the 2024 models on the same dyno. The numbers don't matter except for the comparison between all the machines. KTM's peak output has still been beaten in 2024 by Kawasaki.
Yes but is the factory HP, flywheel HP, or BHP I think it's flywheel HP So the 4-stroke with the extra weight of the frame and the rider will be around 40 to 44 BHP and the 2 would be around 44 to 47 BHP. Manufacturers tend to develop an engine and then Dyno that engine and all the power output is gathered from that its the same for cars aswell its not true BHP which is the HP from the wheels with a rider sitting on the bike when it's being Dynoed.
Notice what these guys said! The 4 stroke was easier to ride with less effort.So in other words less skill to ride it. Also notice when they mention the positives of the 4 stroke it was things that don’t really matter. The HP difference of 6 hp is a lot of power. This is one reason these 2 strokes are so wild. This is what made them race bikes.
Gotta love youtube I am watching the 2024 RNC Convention and the comments seem to be about the difference between 4strokes and 2 Strokes. Weird! So for the record Trump and 2Strokes ROCK!
I own two Ducatis but my next purchase is a dirt bike with no-stroke. Electric with no noise to disturb the neighborhood cottage residents and my ear drums which are already plagued with Panigalis DucaTinnitus.
You said it! Now give us 300 2T vs 350 4T! Goldilocks bikes for us vet riders.
They have a 450 class so I think it’s fair that anything under the 450cc should be able to race that class especially in pro but the problem is if Honda or KTM made a 325cc 2 stroke then they would easily win. Why is this concise red not fair? Because a 325 2 stroke would be to fast for the 450 4 stroke. That tells us right there that the 4 strokes are not competitive and not true racing machines. You can hear it just listening to the engine as well as watching a race
I go back and forth but at the end of the day I'm picking 2t because its faster, lighter, and most fun.
Hard to go wrong with that!
Ryan brought up a great point. Would love to see 300 SX vs 350 SX-F. Great vid!
Thanks Anthony!
Best 4T vs 2T comparo ever. These power numbers make me think they were dynoed at the P.C. dyno, which is my reference point. It's amazing how 250 2T can squeeze so much horsepower these days. Before power valves and reed induction (and now fuel injection), 25-30 hp would be a rocket! Excellent!
Thank you for the support! The weights are our own but the power numbers are from KTM.
Except they left the peak torque numbers out as always. Were the 2 stroke absolutely decimate the 4 strokes. Peak power anyways. 4 stroke just has a flat torque curve giving it the illusion of torque.
You say it right!!
Ktm 250sx two strokes have had 50+hp since 2003!!!!
@@crazychad2720 - yes, I know, at least on the Pro Circuit dyno. A 1975 CZ 250 had 22hp. You were not born yet. Cheers!
Totally agree with you. I have been riding a 250 250sx and it's just an absolute blast, probably not as fast but just makes every ride fun and at the end of the day, that's all that matters to me.
Right on!
Part of motocross was to try and master the 2 stroke. Electric bikes could blow both of these away but we are getting away from what motocross is which is what we did with adding 4 strokes. Just because they are racing does not make them a true race bike. The 2 stroke are the true motocross bikes
I'm a two stroke guy. That being said, it's mainly because I'm a vintage guy. My whole deal with two strokes and vintage bikes is that if you can learn to be fast on something with less suspension and more erratic power, just think how fast you'll be on something with linear power and good suspension.
i strongly agree with that and you can also argue that riding a two stroke especially a 125 will make you much more comfortable with using your clutch in the right places, also there’s no engine braking it’s 100% manual
Totally agree. I grew up a 2-stroke guy: Husky & CZ 250's and the suspension back in the late 60's-early 70's kept us from truly using all that power effectively. I haven't rode an MX bike in a while and would love to hop on a new KTM 250SX 2-stroke to see how far they've come suspension-wise and being able to manage the power. Looks as though they're MILES apart...in a good way. I wouldn't be racing at this point, so the 250SX sounds good to me.
I think its a good fit cause I'm similar in my love of 2stroke but I'm also 40 not 17.. so something that's smooth & capable but still a smoker is perfect.. I would roll with a sx.125 tho...
I plan on getting a new 1 once I sell my house. My kid needs a new one as well
It's interesting that when a 4 stroke passes by, the exhaust sounds AND smells bad...the 2 stroke smells GOOD and sounds good (to me). The simplicity of the 2 stroke is where I think it's always going to rule. 4 strokes just have too many parts.
Just because they’re simple doesn’t make them better. Modern 4T are stone cold reliable
Just a recreational rider, but my experience matches your take exactly. The 2 stroke is just a more lively ride, it feels like you're going faster, the snap is exhilarating, and the sound just adds to the fun. The four stroke bikes can sometimes hide your flaws in technique and hold corners better but are missing the x factor of the 2 stroke. At my old age i now only ride trails on 450. Ive settled down a lot and ride more lazy now and the torque makes this so easy to do, but i can still enjoy the grunt in short bursts when its appropriate. Good video, good reviews, I say pick the one you will win with if youre racing, and pick the one that will make you smile more if you're not.
Well said!
If modern 2 strokes had the same amount of money dumped in them for as long as the 4 strokes had the 2 stroke would win hands down.
@cycle news : Great review !!! Yes please do the 350 v 300 🎉
Will do👍
I have 2022.5 250 Rockstar and the 2023 TC250, so similar comparison on the Husky side. I would say try to match your talent/skill level to the horsepower. The 250 two stroke still hits harder, so you will have more fun if you have the skill to not wheelie out of ruts when there is traction and the skill not to slide out of control when its slick. The 250 four stroke is more forgiving and would be "better" for someone still learning. I ended up using the rockstar for Moto and then set up the TC for woods and hard enduro. These new TBI engines are really awesome, and it works great off road with the stock Moto engine set up.
I am a new subscriber to your channel - I ride a 2023 KTM SX 250 ( pre mix ) lol a 21 KTM factory edition 450 , 92 KTM MX 500 ( aka The Hulk ) and a 89 KTM EXC 350 2 stroke !!! I love this comparison video and must say my 2023 250 w/o doubt is the best bike I have ever ridden / raced - really enjoyed your commentating and remarks etc - thank you for such great content
Welcome! Awesome fleet you've got there. Thanks for the support.
Great debate. And thank you so much for not comparing a 250 2-stroke to a 450 4-stroke!!! It's great to see a proper comparison instead of one bike vs a cheater bike. I hope these conversations help rewrite the rules of motorX that have disadvantaged 2-strokes into nonexistence. It is such a complex debate. It's not just about horsepower & weight because many riders STILL prefer 4-strokes. Rider comfort, power delivery, user friendliness, clutch/throttle manipulation, traction, and fun factor are all just as important. I really like to see the advances in TBI 2-stroke technology bridge the gap between 2T & 4T. I would really like to see 2Ts be competitive again in motorX. The new TBI technology is helping 2Ts gain the advantages that made many riders move to 4Ts. I just hope it can be refined in time before motorX moves to electric😅
The 2 stroke has to be more powerful than the 4 stroke. Not sure what they are saying. This is why they changed the classes and made a pro 250 and 450 class because the 4 strokes where no where close in power. I think all motocross race classes should be based on the motors cubic inch. If it’s a 250 then it races a 250 class. If the 4 stroke can’t win in that class then to bad.
The 2 stroke is faster and lighter than the 4 stroke. But yes, agree on the 250 vs 250 class.
That’s why they have factory teams to handle that issue give these bike to the privateers and we’ll see David and Goliath battles every time.
They definitely belong in their OWN Class and if not Change it to the “250f Class” so that there is no confusion or controversy🤦♂️
True 250 Class enough said 💪
@@eric6rock I wasn’t sure if they still had works bikes so now that I see that they do they need to give rides to the top 20 riders. Maybe 4 per team. This will help the sport and make it much better for the fans. There’s a hero out there but maybe he just doesn’t have the money so they need to have scouts as well as testing centers for riders to be watched and clocked to see if they really may have what it takes
Exactly. And 4strokes would still win races.
@@joellarsson9486 Just a little lesson! The 4 stroke that was allowed in the first pro race was 200cc large than a 250 at 450cc. They allowed 4 strokes to race but they had to race in a lower class to compete. There is no way that a Honda CRF 250 would be able to beat the Honda CR250 or any 2 stroke 250 for that matter. If you just look at the specs on the bikes you clearly see the 2 strokes with an advantage which is why the AMA changed the ruling in the classes because it was the only way they could bring in this market of 4 strokes. I’m defending our incredible sport by wanting true race bikes in there racing which are 2 strokes. We are getting away from what this sport is all about. They now have electric bikes that could smoke the crap out of every bike but as you can see the sport doesn’t want them in there. We need to stick with the sport and support them bringing 2 strokes back. The e excitement level would be unreal and you would see incredible racing
One key thing I noticed testing both the 250 4t and new TBI 2t back to back was the lug-ability of the new 2t’s and the anti-stall character of the mapping. Its so good that I think the 2t is better than the 4t from a clutch use standpoint. I found that I was having to get into the clutch way too much on the 4t. Where as I could do 3 complete laps in a row with better exit speed out of corners without ever even touching the clutch (no clutch use at all) on the TBI 250 2t. So if you’re trying to save $ on cheaper rebuilds and less frequent clutch use, the TBI 2t’s are in some ways better than a 4t with a rekluse radius CX. It was easier to ride the TBI 2t without the clutch, than it was to ride the 4t with a radius CX on the moto track. Less clutch burn = less racing cost. And the power was way better IMO on the 2t.
So I guess one important piece of this debate has to be tuning and competition running costs. I mean I guess for the average hobby rider the bike really doesn't matter at all. Carson Brown is gonna blast by you in 1970s Husqvarna with 3 inch suspension any day.
But i think when it comes to semi professional to professional racing the two stroke has something to offer. It's just so much cheaper to run and so much cheaper and easier to modify. With the fuel injection you can literally swap pipes next to the track upload a different mapping and have a totally transformed bike. You can still to this day do a lot with a Dremel and some knowledge about porting.
I think it would give the smaller teams a better shot against the big spenders
I find it way more difficult to ride a 4 stroke for one main reason, engine braking. I can not for the life of me get used to engine braking, always catches me off gaurd. I prefer small bore 2 strokes but to each his own
That's actually a very valid point
On these newer ktms you can set engine braking very low with the app.
i'm a dirt bike guy. i rebuild busted rusted mistreated bikes in a box. i blow my paychecks on rocky mountain. i follow my dirt bike youtubers. you couldn't pay me to watch supercross with 4 strokes. the sound doesn't make my heart beat. if im a dirt bike darrell and you can't sell me the pinnacle of the sport imagine the likelihood of barbra from HR tuning into the Peacock for a week 6 SX. until 2 strokes are back and featured on supercross, the casual fans will never be back and it will be in the bargain bin of televised sport in the US. i mean....look at the explosion of hard enduro. you're talking about a sport that has little to no televised or nationally televised attention and it's booming on social media. even the gncc where most of the pros are riding 4 strokes, there's still 1000 2 strokes hitting the line in a weekend. howards hole and the iron man hill climb are attracting crowds the wnba would kill for. if the planets no concern, and it's all buisness, the 2 strokes need to be featured again.
Have you been on them both like ride them both? If you haven't then you can't talk. If you have then I fully understand your comment
@@davidmolyneux7284 yes i've ridden them both? modern 4 strokes are fantastic machines that have come a million miles in the last 20 years and superior machines in most ways. the sound of 30 angry bees when the gates drop will always be better television
I went from the 250sxf to the 300sx and it made me a better faster rider. Ironically because it punishes me if my posture is wrong, it has trained me to ride properly and now i can ride it harder longer than a 4t.
That's awesome
Too bad the AMA and those that influence them are antiquated in their ways of thinking about displacement. Allowing 250 2T in the 250 class for pro racing should allow for more competition from privateers that can’t pay for the full factory motor Hp, high cost rebuilds, etc.
250 2-stroke vs a 250 4-stoke, 2 strokes are faster, lighter and much easier to rebuild and maintain.
250 2-stroke vs a 450 4-stroke, the 4-stroke makes better power over a wider rpm range.
Only a girl would pick a 250 4-stroke over a 2-stroke.
Also costs a fortune when 450f blows up !!
Love the vid and both perspectives you guys have im a new rider I’ve only ridden 125s before but I wanna upgrade and get a 250 which should I choose 2 stroke or 4 stroke I’m not gonna race or get competitive I just wanna get better and have fun and hit trails or the woods if you could get back to me ?
It sucks all the the other sanctions run a true 250 class 2- Stroke and 4-Stroke are permitted to race each other.
Honda is a big proponent of not allowing 250 2-St in the 250 class.
It would be cool to see many different Displacements allowed and of course cannot surpass their respective class they are in 250 or 450. They allowed the 350 before why can they do that and not have the 300 in!?
AMA Sucks the transition years were pretty cool, 02-05 different types of bikes running.
Their should be a true 250 class if not deem it the “250f” class then 🤦♂️
Government regulations forced the transition into 4-stroke, I remember this when it happened during the 2000s. Also I ran big bore bikes to train and get better for the 250s. You always need to learn the track's condition regardless if you race and will get tired quickly if you don't nail it down. An experienced rider can beat a 2-stroke if that person on the 4-stroke is better. I perfer 2-stroke any day.
Displacement is king. 250 class 300 and so on. Ain’t no way they should have ever allowed 450F’s to compete against the 250t
Can't say we disagree. Seems like the 300 two stroke would be a more fair matchup against the almighty 450.
The 2stroke sounds like a racing bike and not Bubba's bean farts.
I'm Team both 2 Stroke & 4 Stroke ! because they both have there advantages . I race and like 2 stroke on tight tracks, and 4. stroke on long tracks . If you can only have one bike then a 2 stroke would be preferred because of cost to operate.
Good evaluation but, 2T = Life.
Finally, the review I was always looking to.
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed
Why didn't they show the torque numbers? The sx has quite a bit more than the sxf.
Wow its amazing.how far the 4Ts have come... 47 bhp is incredible.
I had an xr250 which was a great bike but it could have done with a little.more power. I know its an old bike by todays standards. Then i got an rmz250 which was drastically more powerful.
It really depends what you're doing though, like you mention its much more tiring fighting with the 450s wearing yourself out all day instead of just focusing on getting round the track.
Great review 👏
Thanks for sharing!
I have a 19 150sx and a crf250r 2006 which have around the same power and I feel the ktm is just straight up more fun but you have to dance around in the gears and the powerband more. Not gonna compare handling since the Honda is way older the Honda still rips tho!
'06 was a great year!
i loved this video, but you can't race straight displacement at most tracks afaik. so it's kind of a pipe dream. I do like the idea of the 300 or 350 (bore kit?) 2T in open or vet classes.
There's nothing like a 2 stroke
Nothing!👍
I love the take on being able to ride the bikes to their potential. Yes 2t are so much fun, but I’ve personally never met or seen someone besides pros ride it to its limits. Being able to ride a slower bike fast is fun in itself.
Ive test ridden a TE300 and FE350 2024 back to back. The 300 had better front end feel, more planted and more grip. Ive always been told 4 strokes have better front end feel. I did not have that experience at all. The terrain we rode was hard pack and slippery
Interesting take
Great video! Would love to see the Yamaha YZ 250 and YZ 250F.
Coming soon!
@@cyclenews that's what she said.
Most important thing you never covered . Forget best! The only thing one must make in his/her decision is two strokes cant legally ride on the roads :{ I've never ridden a 4 stroke but I'm looking at the 350 EXC-F and upgrade it to the max. Grew up on Yamaha YZ's 80', 250's two strokes Honda 500, Husqvarna 490 I think it was, but Ill have to switch to a 4 stroke so I can ride anywhere and any rally. Yes im old.
Not much experience on a two stroke here. But personally, the big jumps can be sketchy on the 2T. While riding borrowed bikes, I have had unexpected nose high or nose low leaps. I think it’s from the power delivery being not as smooth.
I have a 23 125 and compared to the 2022 ktm 125sx i have noticed that there is a much less powerful power band but there is more buttom end. Carbs for the win
I have owned both. One huge consideration is the top end on each. The two-stroke is so much cheaper and easier to replace parts. If something goes wrong on the four-stroke, you are looking at a huge bill because it will take out valves and cylinder.
That's a great point
Wait why would you test a 250f vs 250 2 banger? Two different power groups
Really well done video thx 👍🇨🇦
Thanks Alex!
What are the top speeds of both of these? I'm guessing the 2 stroke has a faster top speed?
350 is my next move raced both 250f’s and 450’s and always felt a little less confident on the 450’s when tired at the end of motos and 250’s always wanted more low end im lazy I want to lug so I hope the 350 even if I have to do some mods hits my niche for being a weekend guy now
Think you'll like it!
Just switched from a 250 4 stroke to a 250 2 stroke & I love it!!!
Awesome! Which one did you go with?
How did you find the cornering on the two stroke. I’m thinking of doing the same. I ride a ktm 250sxf
@@thomasvinsen1410 I haven’t been on a moto track yet, but on my woods loop, it’s amazing!
I agree the racing classes should change. I think we should eliminate the 450 class. The bikes are too damn powerful. When I was younger on a Honda 450 I was blown away at the power and always thought it was stupid to have that much power. The only place I could see it really worth it would be maybe like desert racing. Now I'm old and fat and the 300 2t is my favorite bike. As for racing I think maybe a 250 class with 2 or 4 strokes and a 350 class allowing 300 or 350 2 strokes.
kg`?
For me the 2 strokes all day long. I own the KTM TPI-xcw. Grew up on 2 strokes. Had a Yamaha WR 4 stroke for a while. Don’t like the engine breaking on a 4 stroke.Penton, real Husky’s, CZ’s, Montessa, now KTM, Gas Gas.
Don’t matter what year bike , im a weekend warrior just ride for fun so 2 stroke all day every day!! But great video!
Thanks Brian!
The 250cc Two Stroke is in the same HP and TQ #'s as a 450 4puke. So, why are you always comparing the 250cc two stroke against the 250cc 4stroke?????
Ill just keep havin fun on my 03 cr250😂
Still an awesome bike!
After watching this, I still don’t know which one to buy
For 250 class absolutely not we have a yz250f and yz250 and the 2 stroke smokes the yz250f in speed and lap times, the 2 stroke has may more power output in high end 125 vs 250f and 250 and 450f classes
How about a 10% disadvantage in engine size 225cc & 400cc but a 10lb. lighter weight advantage 2 stroke against the 4 strokes in Professional racing?
250 two stroke should compete against 250 4strokes. The cc handicap is nuts! Even the early generation 4strokes won races and think about the difference between those bikes and the modern 4strokes
For racing 4s.. for offroad and occasions on the mx track ..all around bike is 2s
2 stroke all day. I ride for fun. Even when I race its for fun as well.
Well said!
If you are chasing championships the 4T is better. For the weekend go out to have fun the 2T is better.
Well said
My next bike will probably be a 250f had no idea they were pumping 47hp! The 450 kicks my 140 pound ass.
How do you compare the 250sx vs the 300 sx for a vet rider? Which is easier to ride ?
They are very different. The 300 has about 10 more horsepower than the 250F.
Get a 350 and call it a day
awesome job 👍🤠
Thanks 👍
Markets don’t lie: 4 strokes get slaughtered in price the second you get it off the lot. People can say what they want, price shows everyone’s preference.
Whoa! 9:45 Ronnie Mack?😂
2T 250-300
For a moto track, 4 strokes are easier to ride for a longer time. However, off road, racing & trails, 2 strokes are better and easier to ride for longer.
Great point.
I also agree that 250s should ride against 250s whether or not they’re two stroke or four stroke because they’re both about the same. Maybe not the same but you can’t put a 250 2 stroke up against a 454 stroke. Not if you wanna be competitive.
I think the difference between a 250 two stroke and a 450 four stroke is much different than the two 250's
It's been settled long ago Two Strokes cost have as much to maintain and flat out more fun to ride are they faster doesn't matter
Tom keen talking motocross
I love my 2 stroke but if i was racing for cash im taking the 4 stroke. Id take electric if theyd allow it. Racing is all about giving yourself the grestest advantage, if that means 0.05 seconds faster then so be it.
I have both😊
Very cool!
This is what I have always hated about California dirt bike mags. They bullshit and lie; "the four stroke is better because it is slower and the average rider can almost ride it to its full potential". Just think about that idiotic statement. Don't we want to ride the best bike? Well, the two stroke, given the same amount of time and money put into the development will always beat the four stroke. It is just that simple. The development of four stroke racing dirt bikes was a political decision to have "less pollution" by a bunch of scared board members and owners of dirt bike companies.
unfortunately not. many younger riders will happily ride the slower, easier to ride bike
Thanks for the comment Thomas👍👍
Are you high? No 2T can touch a modern 4T 450
@@stevesmith756
Manufacturers have always had the technology to make ridiculously fast
2 stroke MX bikes but it was deemed too dangerous to employ their
road racing technology into MX as a simple primitive 500 cc 2-stroke
engines are fast enough for MX.
4-stroke MX engines are cutting edge toned down f1 and road racing
technology. Yamaha when developing the first competitive 4-stroke
MX bike looked to their old f1 car technology and their YZ400F was
basically a single-cylinder of their Yamaha OX11A 3.0 V10 F1 engine lol
after that, all the Manufacturers followed suit.
Back in the 80's and 90's though all the Manufacturers and especially
HRC was getting 200 to 250 BHP out of their 2-stroke 500cc race bikes
that's 400 to 500 BHP per litre no naturally asperated 4 stroke could
ever make that sort of power. even today 1000cc to 1100 4 stroke
race bikes are only making 230 to 250 bhp.
two stroke sound and fun, nuff said
Hard to beat!
Ruining the 2 stroke vibe by turning them into a wanna be 4 stroke
If you ever go on first gear trails the 2 stroke won’t stall on you
It's fun to ride somebody else's 250F full out, but not your own. Those constant $1500 top end rebuilds get old if you are the one paying for it.
Fair point
I agree with most every in this video, I'm a 33 yo fat guy and I love my sxf lol
I wish manufacturers would at least make a 400cc 2 stroke
That would be cool!
Two Stroke forever!!
they left the peak torque numbers out as always. Were the 2 stroke absolutely decimate the 4 strokes. Peak power anyways. 4 stroke just has a flat torque curve giving it the illusion of torque.
Thats why the 4 stroke always have better traction.
A 250 2t generally lays down around mid 30s lbft peak power torque only a few numbers off a 450 4t.
That's PEAK power not overall the 450 flat average torque across the power range is much better than the 2t
But the 250 4t are only around 20 lbft
They have a lot more engine torque, but not that much more wheel torque, and that's what accelerates the bike. A 250 Smoker is done at 8,500RPM, which means to go the same speed per gear as a 250F that revs to 13k+, it needs to have taller gearing, which reduces wheel torque. It's why a Harley can have some crazy torque number on the dyno but is relatively slow on the track; it' doesn't rev high, so it needs much taller gearing to go the same speed, hence why it accelerates slower than say a high revving 600cc inline four. It's how you can have a 50% disparity in torque on the dyno and still end up with bikes that are pretty closely matched.
@@DoctorMotorcycleYou need to do more research, as what you posted is ridiculous.
@@DoctorMotorcycleYeah no, these modern 250 2T put down 30 lb/ft to the wheel, while the 250F’s put down 20 lb/ft
gasgas is beter whrn you buy the exstras
2 strokes and a silly grin!!!!
Can't beat it!
4 stroke areint as fast as made oit or power
2 stroke always!
Nearly ALL the national enduro competitors who used to be on 2stk are now on 4stk....hmmmmm
Follow the money, suck up to the governing bodies and their stupid regulations lobby-ed by Yamaha, who truly started all the 4 stroke B.S. movement.
All that to still have Europa as the better builder of cross bikes.
This is how the racing should have started when 4stroke mx bikes started racing. How they thought it was fair 450 4strokes against 250 2strokes was what ruined alot of manufacturers stop developing or even building 250 2strokes. Even now 300cc 2bangas aren't aloud to race 450 4strokes. Sounds like they did it on purpose so they could make more money because of parts needed and repair costs. Extreme and hard enduro are almost always 2strokes. More fun on them. Avagud1
They would still have to keep the 250 2 stroke nearly stock against a built 250 4 stroke to be fair. Cause 4 strokes sucks
Not when you’re going against factory riders no mercy for the 4 strokes, the 250 2ts should race against 250fs in their respective class.
Hell this would be a lot of fun for incoming pros for Yamaha or KTM Group factory riders picking their Power output but not displacement.
Not only they would sell more bikes but racing would be a lot more fun and really based on talent and picking the right tool for the job thus making each bike viable.
it has 45 at the wheel hp
Rad video
Thanks Conner👍
2 stroke ❤❤❤
maico 700 enduro 111kg
Just keep the rpm’s up.
2 stroke
The 250 sxf actually has 47 horsepower. If ktm says so it is true its their bike they have a Dyno too in their factory and engine etc etc. Its not 45. Or 44.5 its 47. Said and done boys. Dont believe Dynos on TH-cam if ktm has one too and they've got 47 hp on it.❤
That's what we put in the video.
@@cyclenews ik I just put a point out for the other people haha 😂❤️
HP output depends on the dyno used. It is not useful to compare two bikes on two different dynos. MXA dyno'd all of the 2024 models on the same dyno. The numbers don't matter except for the comparison between all the machines. KTM's peak output has still been beaten in 2024 by Kawasaki.
Yes but is the factory HP, flywheel HP, or BHP I think it's flywheel HP
So the 4-stroke with the extra weight of the frame and the rider will
be around 40 to 44 BHP and the 2 would be around 44 to 47 BHP.
Manufacturers tend to develop an engine and then Dyno that engine
and all the power output is gathered from that its the same for cars
aswell its not true BHP which is the HP from the wheels with a rider
sitting on the bike when it's being Dynoed.
Notice what these guys said! The 4 stroke was easier to ride with less effort.So in other words less skill to ride it. Also notice when they mention the positives of the 4 stroke it was things that don’t really matter. The HP difference of 6 hp is a lot of power. This is one reason these 2 strokes are so wild. This is what made them race bikes.
Gotta love youtube I am watching the 2024 RNC Convention and the comments seem to be about the difference between 4strokes and 2 Strokes. Weird! So for the record Trump and 2Strokes ROCK!
🇺🇸✌️💨
I own two Ducatis but my next purchase is a dirt bike with no-stroke. Electric with no noise to disturb the neighborhood cottage residents and my ear drums which are already plagued with Panigalis DucaTinnitus.
2 stroke!!!!!!
The only difference between 2 and 4 stroke is Fun Factor I like fun and I like lazy so I will go with both
Can't pick one, pick both! Love it
Traction,traction,traction that what it really comes down to
Bingo