I'm sorry that most of the comments didn't watch the video 😂 i agree, trying to set up a 4 card combo is way too slow especially when you have 3 or more other players who can remove your stuff. It sounds good on paper but irl you might not have enough mana to counter their removal. Thanks for the video and the ideas.
Awesome video again! Again i like how you dont just go with whatever is the top pick on edhrec but you actually think about it more carefully and deeply. I also would love it if you could make a zombie tribal scarab god deck?
He was one of my first commanders when I sucked at deck building and would really love to see where you take him, plus Itd be awesome for me to build a better version of him
I was paying attention until you said cut bloodghast. A single card gives you a permanent sac target for the entire game as long as it's not exiled, and easily goes infinite with 1/2 other cards. It's one of the best cards for this deck you don't know what you're talking about.
I'm putting together a Z&D deck now, and this is definitely an interesting direction to take it, and one would consider running. That said, I feel like the deck you presented here would be better with Omo, Queen of Vesuva at the helm, rather than Z&D. I feel like Z&D has the option to win in multiple avenues, but forcing it exclusively into a Maze's end shell ends up making the deck a lot more proactive to play, rather than midrange/combo, with using all of the untap things to gain bursts of value. I do agree with a lot of what you said about some of the landfall payoffs, like Ob Nixilis (who I've now cut from my build). For me, I think I'll stick with a more midrange version, but I'd love to pilot this version at some point.
This video is going to be interesting. I am working on a Zimone and Dina deck but its not like anything you've seen before. I just picked the commander for the colours. It's actually a skeletal swarming deck. I cast skeletal swarming and copy it as much as possible. I would freaking love if you did a "You don't know how to build a Skeletal Swarming deck"
While not the way I'm going with Z&D (gates), I really appreciate this take. I had the same reservations about some of the popular includes like Ob Nix and the standard combo lines in the time I've played with a more typical version.
This is a pet deck, but my build is all about drawing my deck out and winning with thassa's oracle. Also Z&D is an excellent combo commander. z&D combos with bloodghast (or anything that makes a body with landfall) + retreat to coralhelm + bounce lands. Also intruder alarm and thornbite staff. My build can also win farely with tokens, but in playgroups where combat is usually answered having a catch all is great. Also having z&d activate with 8+ lands is already super hard to come back from as it generates so much value
I was looking at the new Flubs, the Fool and thought maybe I could build him gates? Landfall isn't really my cup of tea and a friend is already building him storm, so I wanted to try something unusual if that makes sense. I really like Azusa and Eruth but they don't fit in any of my decks.
Hey man. great video! just curious though do you try to aim towards more budget choices? interested what the deck would look like with a higher budget ceiling if possible.
Thanks for watching! My budget restriction isn't as simple as a lot of other brewers, but it looks like this: - Is the effect that X card is contributing to my gameplan worth the price? Is it essential? - Is the effect unique? How unique is it? Can I find a version that's 70-80% as strong for 10% the price? *For example,* in a Smeagol helpful guide deck, the effect that Nazgul bring to the gameplan is a 3 mana Ring Temptation attached to a sack-able body. But Nazgul are over $10 apiece. Uruk-Hai berserkers are about $0.10 apiece and bring the same effect to the table, so one of the Nazgul can be swapped out for a Berserker. I only started this recently, but now, if I ever exclude a card *for no reason other than its price,* I'm tacking it onto the credits on the "Honorable Mentions" pane. Thanks again for watching!
The way this decks built makes no sense to me. Is your plan to win only through mazes end? I've been staring at it and it looks so weak to combo or aggro and loses immediately if mazes end gets removed somehow?
It's a fantastic card, and it was the first card I put in my first draft for the deck. Like I said- there were games that it did work (and it clearly interacts well with the commander), *but in those games,* if my objective is to spew more lands into play, I'm less likely to spend 3 mana on it than anything else in my hand. For untaps to be relevant, you need creatures. This doesn't provide creatures. For our commander's ability to max out and those untaps be worth more, we need more lands in play directly- something we're already trying to spend those earlier turns on- and RTC doesn't do that. It's really only doing the most work towards the end of the game when I need to be closing, not durdling. Thanks for watching!
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 The creature issue is mainly because you've cut all free token generators from the deck. The land bounce is particularly worth it because you won't need to run so many lands in your deck as you can "recycle" them for landfall through bouncing. And in combination with untap options you suddenly create highly explosive turns that even if they don't win you the game, you will have so much value and resources that you probably win the turn after (or after the left player's turn since you can do almost everything at instant speed). I like your other builds but with this one you've created a weaker version of Zimone and Dina.
@@0rcd0c I'm not convinced that's true. At all stages of the game, the pieces around which Z&D decks revolve - Z&D, Field of the Dead, Maze's End- all care about land count, not creature count. Taking detours to turn your landfalls into creatures diverts focus from powering out the lands you need to win with Maze's End as quickly as possible, and it diverts focus from getting Z&D's ability powered up as quickly as possible, and none of it is actually needed for the deck to execute its strategy. And if I'm not taking detours to develop a heavier creature presence, RTC really underperforms. I think RTC is kind of spectacular with Field of the Dead in play, but that can't be the sole justification for its presence here when Quirion Ranger exists. And- not to toot my own horn, but don't be too quick to judge it just yet: my Z&D is undefeated this year, and I'm proud enough of this take on it to pretty confidently say that I think it is better than the average Z&D deck theory. But regardless, I'm glad you enjoy my other videos- thanks for watching!
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 It's true that you won't need many landfall creatures if you want to go the Gates route. The Gates route is quite slow and inconsistent since you still need the cards that fetch them and most importantly a lot of time. The usually strategy of landfall tokens, extra mana/untapped entry, untap creature effects and land bounce create much more synergy with the commander and between themselves. Achieving the density for each of these types is very easy to do even on a budget. A
I don't know, I kinda think that's waaay too many pieces to make a good combo. I try to evaluate combo pieces based on how they perform when not being used as a combo as well, and Meloku, Cutthroat and (reluctantly) RTC don't really fit the bill. The tower is decent though, just not as good as its price would suggest, given that we want to primarily sacrifice to our commander instead.
If you were so inclined, then probably, yes (though I think I'd still play it out, or else you encourage the group to play surgical extraction type effects). Though the same can be said for most win conditions. There are cards in the list that can get it back from the graveyard (Eternal Witness, Fungal Rebirth, etc), but exile is more difficult, and not necessarily worth preparing for specifically. If you know there's an Etali (or similar effect) coming (like in the command zone), that's what I'd save a counterspell for- the rest of the problems on the board can be controlled through other ways. If you were worried enough about that scenario, there are a few other routes that'd slot in fairly seamlessly like a big X spell, such as Torment of Hailfire (and Etali can't even cast those spells) or a mass reanimation spell like Command the Dreadhorde.
Thanks for you quick response. Sadly, I am tied to a budget for my pod. So using Torment of Hailfire etc are not viable options. I dont think there is enough countermagic present in the current decklist. I will take yours as inspiration and shape it towards the needs of my own pod. Thanks though! Great deck tech as always.
That's not even the start of it. There are so many silly good ramp cards just looking for the right deck to do something insane. Caravan Vigil is a 1 mana rampant growth that puts the land in play *untapped,* and Far Wanderings fetches 3 lands into play for 3 mana.
I thought there were some good ideas here but I think it’s not helpful to only promote poor reasons why certain cards are popular. For example coralhelm and meloku are part of combo lines where zimone and dina can draw the entire deck. Even if you think the combo is inefficient or not what you’re trying to brew, I think it is more helpful to explain that rather than just saw they are bad untappers or land bouncers.
Thanks for watching! I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. At 6:48 I acknowledge the combo, and while I try to be concise, thought that describing it as "a four card combo that doesn't win without a fifth card" was enough to describe why the cards are bad *as combo pieces.* So the only reasons left to talk about them should have been what they're doing *when they're not combo pieces.* I'll try to spend more time on it in the future though.
Nice, I really wanted to make a zimone and dina mystical archive tribal. It's a self limitation, but I really liked the idea. The problem is mystical archives are instants and sorceries which don't really synergize a lot, but I'll use your list to see if I can at least make it work with 25 mystical archives
Taking out retreat to coralhelm is a mistake imo. Combine it with a bounce land and an effect like bloodghast/FoD/Scute swarm you can go infinite and draw your deck. And with amulet of vigor have the lands come in untapped for mana
I'm not sure. That's precisely the 🤮 combo I was talking about. With - Your commander, - a Bounce land, - A self replacing body, and - Retreat to Coralhelm, you're looking at a 4 card combo that still hasn't won the game. I try to evaluate the pieces of the combo based on how they perform while not winning the game, and while I love what RTC does (it was the first card I put in the first draft of the deck), when it's not being used as part of the combo, it's a win more card: it's at its best when we've already met the land threshold and have plenty of bodies. We're already so well-set-up by that point, and it doesn't win us the game outright. So I don't think that's a great idea. Even if you then included cards like Thoracle, Jace, or Lab Maniac- which don't do anything in the deck at any other point in the game, which I'm also really averse to- to turn it into a 5 card combo, those cards are much easier to win with if we dropped the other cards and just used Demonic Consultation effects instead for a 2 card combo- which also doesn't seem like a great fit for the deck. Tacking on an Amulet of Vigor adds another piece to this already really convoluted "combo." It suffers from a lot of the same problems that RTC has (it's not a body, doesn't supply bodies, doesn't fetch lands, and it's really only great when we're already doing great). It's just too many moving pieces that don't satisfy the other goals of the deck for me to be very happy with. Good combos should come in small (read, 1-3 cards) packages. Not this novel people keep using.
@aegisgamingofficial2178 Valid point. Assembling the combo is definitely much less reliable in a budget version of the deck without any tutors. Another similar combo I like is intruder alarm and scute swarm. If im correct, if you have 6 or more lands, you should be able to respond to each individual trigger of the scute swarms making copies of themselves to sac a scute swarm and continue digging for a land thus continuing the loop. A bit more reliable version that can essentially be just as effective with less cards.
In all seriousness though, outside of cedh I've only ever seen Armageddon played alongside Avacyn. If somebody puts those two together, that's their win condition, not really an intermediate play. There's nothing to "survive." It's like asking how to survive an overrun or a Thassa's Oracle: if you didn't stop it then the game is over no matter what deck you were playing. And if they're playing Armageddon when it's not as a win condition? Yeah...find better friends. As for how one might survive Winter Orb- which definitely isn't a win condition and definitely is an intermediate play- having certain pieces like Mortality Spear, Culling Ritual, Baral's Expertise and the like can help, but my favorite is Foundation Breaker since you can spin off of evoking it into more Z and D activations.
I'm sorry that most of the comments didn't watch the video 😂
i agree, trying to set up a 4 card combo is way too slow especially when you have 3 or more other players who can remove your stuff. It sounds good on paper but irl you might not have enough mana to counter their removal.
Thanks for the video and the ideas.
This is a seriously awesome video I am so surprised you have so few subs. Instant subscriber!
Damn you won me over. I'm piecing this together this weekend.
Awesome video again! Again i like how you dont just go with whatever is the top pick on edhrec but you actually think about it more carefully and deeply. I also would love it if you could make a zombie tribal scarab god deck?
He was one of my first commanders when I sucked at deck building and would really love to see where you take him, plus Itd be awesome for me to build a better version of him
That's awesome! Scarab God is an excellent commander. It'll be a while before I get around to it but I'd love to add it to my list!
@aegisgamingofficial2178 of course! take your time. but i will definitely be looking forward to it 👍
I was paying attention until you said cut bloodghast. A single card gives you a permanent sac target for the entire game as long as it's not exiled, and easily goes infinite with 1/2 other cards. It's one of the best cards for this deck you don't know what you're talking about.
He removed cards that go infinite from the list, because is a 3+ piece combo
I'm putting together a Z&D deck now, and this is definitely an interesting direction to take it, and one would consider running.
That said, I feel like the deck you presented here would be better with Omo, Queen of Vesuva at the helm, rather than Z&D. I feel like Z&D has the option to win in multiple avenues, but forcing it exclusively into a Maze's end shell ends up making the deck a lot more proactive to play, rather than midrange/combo, with using all of the untap things to gain bursts of value. I do agree with a lot of what you said about some of the landfall payoffs, like Ob Nixilis (who I've now cut from my build). For me, I think I'll stick with a more midrange version, but I'd love to pilot this version at some point.
This video is going to be interesting. I am working on a Zimone and Dina deck but its not like anything you've seen before. I just picked the commander for the colours. It's actually a skeletal swarming deck. I cast skeletal swarming and copy it as much as possible.
I would freaking love if you did a "You don't know how to build a Skeletal Swarming deck"
That sounds absolutely hilarious and awesome.
Oh wow, I used to run that on Arena in a golgari control build. That's awesome!
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 really have been enjoying your builds btw. I playtest them on moxfield for fun all the time!
😊
While not the way I'm going with Z&D (gates), I really appreciate this take. I had the same reservations about some of the popular includes like Ob Nix and the standard combo lines in the time I've played with a more typical version.
This is a pet deck, but my build is all about drawing my deck out and winning with thassa's oracle. Also Z&D is an excellent combo commander. z&D combos with bloodghast (or anything that makes a body with landfall) + retreat to coralhelm + bounce lands. Also intruder alarm and thornbite staff. My build can also win farely with tokens, but in playgroups where combat is usually answered having a catch all is great. Also having z&d activate with 8+ lands is already super hard to come back from as it generates so much value
Yep. That's the one. That's the combo I made the "🤮" emoji over 😂 I used to play an Archelos turtle tribal deck that did a similar thing.
I was looking at the new Flubs, the Fool and thought maybe I could build him gates? Landfall isn't really my cup of tea and a friend is already building him storm, so I wanted to try something unusual if that makes sense. I really like Azusa and Eruth but they don't fit in any of my decks.
With all do respect I just disagree with most if not all of the video. I appreciate the different take on the deck though
Hey man. great video! just curious though do you try to aim towards more budget choices? interested what the deck would look like with a higher budget ceiling if possible.
Thanks for watching! My budget restriction isn't as simple as a lot of other brewers, but it looks like this:
- Is the effect that X card is contributing to my gameplan worth the price? Is it essential?
- Is the effect unique? How unique is it? Can I find a version that's 70-80% as strong for 10% the price?
*For example,* in a Smeagol helpful guide deck, the effect that Nazgul bring to the gameplan is a 3 mana Ring Temptation attached to a sack-able body. But Nazgul are over $10 apiece. Uruk-Hai berserkers are about $0.10 apiece and bring the same effect to the table, so one of the Nazgul can be swapped out for a Berserker.
I only started this recently, but now, if I ever exclude a card *for no reason other than its price,* I'm tacking it onto the credits on the "Honorable Mentions" pane.
Thanks again for watching!
@aegisgamingofficial2178 ok man I gotcha.
The way this decks built makes no sense to me. Is your plan to win only through mazes end? I've been staring at it and it looks so weak to combo or aggro and loses immediately if mazes end gets removed somehow?
Retreat to coralhelm is a bomb in my zimone and dina deck 😬
It's a fantastic card, and it was the first card I put in my first draft for the deck. Like I said- there were games that it did work (and it clearly interacts well with the commander), *but in those games,* if my objective is to spew more lands into play, I'm less likely to spend 3 mana on it than anything else in my hand.
For untaps to be relevant, you need creatures. This doesn't provide creatures. For our commander's ability to max out and those untaps be worth more, we need more lands in play directly- something we're already trying to spend those earlier turns on- and RTC doesn't do that. It's really only doing the most work towards the end of the game when I need to be closing, not durdling.
Thanks for watching!
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 I see your point and it’s fair … thx for your input! :)
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 The creature issue is mainly because you've cut all free token generators from the deck. The land bounce is particularly worth it because you won't need to run so many lands in your deck as you can "recycle" them for landfall through bouncing. And in combination with untap options you suddenly create highly explosive turns that even if they don't win you the game, you will have so much value and resources that you probably win the turn after (or after the left player's turn since you can do almost everything at instant speed).
I like your other builds but with this one you've created a weaker version of Zimone and Dina.
@@0rcd0c I'm not convinced that's true. At all stages of the game, the pieces around which Z&D decks revolve - Z&D, Field of the Dead, Maze's End- all care about land count, not creature count. Taking detours to turn your landfalls into creatures diverts focus from powering out the lands you need to win with Maze's End as quickly as possible, and it diverts focus from getting Z&D's ability powered up as quickly as possible, and none of it is actually needed for the deck to execute its strategy. And if I'm not taking detours to develop a heavier creature presence, RTC really underperforms. I think RTC is kind of spectacular with Field of the Dead in play, but that can't be the sole justification for its presence here when Quirion Ranger exists.
And- not to toot my own horn, but don't be too quick to judge it just yet: my Z&D is undefeated this year, and I'm proud enough of this take on it to pretty confidently say that I think it is better than the average Z&D deck theory. But regardless, I'm glad you enjoy my other videos- thanks for watching!
@@aegisgamingofficial2178 It's true that you won't need many landfall creatures if you want to go the Gates route. The Gates route is quite slow and inconsistent since you still need the cards that fetch them and most importantly a lot of time. The usually strategy of landfall tokens, extra mana/untapped entry, untap creature effects and land bounce create much more synergy with the commander and between themselves. Achieving the density for each of these types is very easy to do even on a budget. A
Z&D+phyrexian tower+meloku+ zulaport cuthroat/blood artist+ Retreat to coraheim is an infinite.
I don't know, I kinda think that's waaay too many pieces to make a good combo. I try to evaluate combo pieces based on how they perform when not being used as a combo as well, and Meloku, Cutthroat and (reluctantly) RTC don't really fit the bill. The tower is decent though, just not as good as its price would suggest, given that we want to primarily sacrifice to our commander instead.
What if we lose Maze's End through exile, like with Etali for example. Would this result in an immediate scoop?
If you were so inclined, then probably, yes (though I think I'd still play it out, or else you encourage the group to play surgical extraction type effects). Though the same can be said for most win conditions. There are cards in the list that can get it back from the graveyard (Eternal Witness, Fungal Rebirth, etc), but exile is more difficult, and not necessarily worth preparing for specifically.
If you know there's an Etali (or similar effect) coming (like in the command zone), that's what I'd save a counterspell for- the rest of the problems on the board can be controlled through other ways.
If you were worried enough about that scenario, there are a few other routes that'd slot in fairly seamlessly like a big X spell, such as Torment of Hailfire (and Etali can't even cast those spells) or a mass reanimation spell like Command the Dreadhorde.
Thanks for you quick response. Sadly, I am tied to a budget for my pod. So using Torment of Hailfire etc are not viable options. I dont think there is enough countermagic present in the current decklist. I will take yours as inspiration and shape it towards the needs of my own pod. Thanks though! Great deck tech as always.
I didn't know there were so many 4 cmc put 2 lands into play cards.
That's not even the start of it. There are so many silly good ramp cards just looking for the right deck to do something insane. Caravan Vigil is a 1 mana rampant growth that puts the land in play *untapped,* and Far Wanderings fetches 3 lands into play for 3 mana.
I thought there were some good ideas here but I think it’s not helpful to only promote poor reasons why certain cards are popular. For example coralhelm and meloku are part of combo lines where zimone and dina can draw the entire deck. Even if you think the combo is inefficient or not what you’re trying to brew, I think it is more helpful to explain that rather than just saw they are bad untappers or land bouncers.
Thanks for watching! I'll try to keep that in mind for the future.
At 6:48 I acknowledge the combo, and while I try to be concise, thought that describing it as "a four card combo that doesn't win without a fifth card" was enough to describe why the cards are bad *as combo pieces.* So the only reasons left to talk about them should have been what they're doing *when they're not combo pieces.* I'll try to spend more time on it in the future though.
if you're playing sultai gates why not play the commander built around that?
Because that commander is ass ngl
Nice, I really wanted to make a zimone and dina mystical archive tribal. It's a self limitation, but I really liked the idea. The problem is mystical archives are instants and sorceries which don't really synergize a lot, but I'll use your list to see if I can at least make it work with 25 mystical archives
Bro what? Said coaralhelm isn’t what he wants to draw. That goes infinite so easily.
You say "easily," but the only combos I've seen with it involve at least four cards...so call me skeptical.
how to make a commander boring. Took note on some of the arguments to take out popular options but really so boring
I feel like you could give yourself less work and make your videos more visually appealing by making less edits with effects and such
Taking out retreat to coralhelm is a mistake imo. Combine it with a bounce land and an effect like bloodghast/FoD/Scute swarm you can go infinite and draw your deck. And with amulet of vigor have the lands come in untapped for mana
I'm not sure. That's precisely the 🤮 combo I was talking about. With
- Your commander,
- a Bounce land,
- A self replacing body, and
- Retreat to Coralhelm,
you're looking at a 4 card combo that still hasn't won the game.
I try to evaluate the pieces of the combo based on how they perform while not winning the game, and while I love what RTC does (it was the first card I put in the first draft of the deck), when it's not being used as part of the combo, it's a win more card: it's at its best when we've already met the land threshold and have plenty of bodies. We're already so well-set-up by that point, and it doesn't win us the game outright. So I don't think that's a great idea.
Even if you then included cards like Thoracle, Jace, or Lab Maniac- which don't do anything in the deck at any other point in the game, which I'm also really averse to- to turn it into a 5 card combo, those cards are much easier to win with if we dropped the other cards and just used Demonic Consultation effects instead for a 2 card combo- which also doesn't seem like a great fit for the deck. Tacking on an Amulet of Vigor adds another piece to this already really convoluted "combo." It suffers from a lot of the same problems that RTC has (it's not a body, doesn't supply bodies, doesn't fetch lands, and it's really only great when we're already doing great). It's just too many moving pieces that don't satisfy the other goals of the deck for me to be very happy with. Good combos should come in small (read, 1-3 cards) packages. Not this novel people keep using.
@aegisgamingofficial2178
Valid point. Assembling the combo is definitely much less reliable in a budget version of the deck without any tutors. Another similar combo I like is intruder alarm and scute swarm. If im correct, if you have 6 or more lands, you should be able to respond to each individual trigger of the scute swarms making copies of themselves to sac a scute swarm and continue digging for a land thus continuing the loop. A bit more reliable version that can essentially be just as effective with less cards.
How does this deck survive an armaggedon?
2 ways:
- Drawing into Arcane Denial first
- Finding friends who don't play Armageddon outside of cedh.
In all seriousness though, outside of cedh I've only ever seen Armageddon played alongside Avacyn. If somebody puts those two together, that's their win condition, not really an intermediate play. There's nothing to "survive." It's like asking how to survive an overrun or a Thassa's Oracle: if you didn't stop it then the game is over no matter what deck you were playing.
And if they're playing Armageddon when it's not as a win condition? Yeah...find better friends.
As for how one might survive Winter Orb- which definitely isn't a win condition and definitely is an intermediate play- having certain pieces like Mortality Spear, Culling Ritual, Baral's Expertise and the like can help, but my favorite is Foundation Breaker since you can spin off of evoking it into more Z and D activations.
If you do a Rowan video, I'll sub your patreon ❤❤❤
😂 Bet!
FIRST
Also I would suggest making the patreon link in your description a hyperlink to make it easier for people to click on it
@@godofchaos007 0_0 let me fix that really quick 😅
dude this is trash