The first time I heard someone suggesting that historical wargamig was in danger of dying out was back in 1969 when I was 13. The hobby wasn't in danger then and it isn't in danger now that I'm 64. The hobby has changed, but I think it's changed for the better and I have never felt so spoiled for choice. My problem is choosing what games to invest in, there are more excellent games (historical, SF and fantasy) I'd like to get involved in than I can possibly manage to find time for. Life is just too short.
Yep, it's a good problem to have, having too much choice! I agree, it hasn't died in anyway in the last three decades that I have gamed either, only expanded.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Problem with the "too much choice" results in having a lot of difficulty to find players that play the same set of rules/period than you. That is, for me, the main reason why historical wargame is in bad shape. I wouldn't say that it is dead, but it is definitely weaker than it was.
I've heard the argument that the increase in skirmish and large scale skirmish games has encouraged more people to get into the hobby. No longer does one need an army of 2-300 figures to play. anything from 20 to 50 figures can work for things like Sharpe Practice, Lion Rampant, Blood and Plunder etc etc etc. Also the attitude that leans towards having a fun game rather than historical pedantry helps.
Your experience matches mine. Reading through old issues of the British Model Soldier Society's old bulletin (in the 1950s) shows how much historical miniature gaming has grown since that time.
An excellent response video--thoughtful, measured opinions and observations. Your view that the historical side of the hobby is "treading water to slightly growing" is one shared by 75% of the people we interviewed. Hopefully next week you'll be willing to weigh in with some ideas on how we can go from "slightly growing" to "absolutely growing!" It's a discussion I think those of us in the community now can and should have. Are there steps we can take together to lower the barrier to entry and get even more new players interested in giving this hobby a try?
Cheers, I am glad you enjoyed the response. I will have a think over the week about the barriers, but I am also trying to tackle those with my series of introductory videos for the historical side of things. As you guys have a huge audience, maybe that is one thing to try. I'll ponder some more and look forward to your next video on the subject.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Hah, a "huge audience" by historical wargaming standards perhaps! But for a Warhammer/GW channel we wouldn't even be on the radar! Doing an introductory video series for new players is a great idea. Love it.
The two periods many folks get into gaming is before they married and after they retire. I was a heavy gamers before I got married, once married my gaming dropped because my focus was on my job, but now I am approaching retirement my gaming is increasing. This does not describe everyone, but this is a hobby which attracted reasonably intelligent folks with good career prospects, who may have a similar experience to myself. If this is correct the older will always outnumber the younger because you only have a small window of gaming when you are young, perhaps 10 years maximum, and as long as you look after yourself, you have a longer period of gaming when you retire, hopefully 20 years.
Couldn’t agree more, spent the last 25 years building a career and raising kids. Gaming dropped off to nothing except for a little painting late at night. I am getting back into it with nearly being an empty nester
This is an interesting topic and I’m glad the guys at LW broached the subject. It is an issue that we as gamers need to take seriously, regardless of whether or not we agree with the statement. I’ve been gaming for 46 years, and my love of the hobby (fortunately) is supported by my very understanding non-gamer wife. Is miniature gaming dying out? I don’t think so. The arrival of fantasy and sci-fi miniatures games has done a lot to bolster the hobby. However, I do feel that historical miniatures gaming may be slipping slightly, although I wouldn’t say it’s dying out. My opinion stems from the fact that the new generation is used to doing things faster, with immediate gratification. They are also very attached to their electronic devices. The fact that many schools are now going virtual is not helping this one bit. I say this with nothing but affection; but, miniatures gaming is the complete antithesis of immediate gratification. You have to save up a significant amount of money to buy the rules/minis/terrain/etc.. You have to invest an enormous amount of time painting said minis and making the terrain (or, you have to save up additional money to buy everything painted). Plus the rules themselves require time and effort to digest. Added to that is the fact that military history is being taught less and less with each passing school year, meaning that fewer kids are being exposed to this amazing subject. I don’t think the Historical Miniatures Apocalypse is going to happen - at least not for a very long time. But, my point is we all need to band together and find a way to expose these youngsters to this hobby, so it will continue to flourish.
I agree, it is the younger generations that will keep things afloat, but also those people who have the time and income to spend on the hobby are equally important.
I'm 21 and I've been in and out of fantasy/scifi minis for the best part of 10 years, and I got really into 40k over the last 4 years. Now I'm turning my focus towards building myself a medieval army, starting with a few units to represent the end of the hundred years war, since it will be a could place to start if I want to expand to before the hundred years war, or on to the war of the roses. So I would count myself as one of the younger ones coming in to the hobby.
DBA : the rule book itself gives you an army list for all the ancient and medieval armies and they are a good starting point as there are only 12 bases in an armies. However DBMM is great, the armies are anything from 100 points (the same size as DBA) to 400 or even 500 points. Some armies like Hundred Years War English will give you a small elite army where some of the eastern armies are quite large with light troops and irregulars cost less in points. It is the only wargame rules that have international, national and regional competitions.
I first started back in the seventies with fifteen mm Napoleonics and American Civil War. Later I added WW two naval and Battletech. I have never truly stopped just sometimes some of my armies will sit on their shelves for months and months but sooner or latter they wander back on the table. I have lived in many parts of the United States and over the years collected many armies because in different places different games rule.
There used to be a National Wargames competition every year. Regional finals for southeast , southwest, East Midlands West Midlands north east north west Scotland and Wales. The winners in each region went on to the national finals. However holding a game show in the local town hall became far to expensive but we always found somewhere. The periods were ancient medieval renaissance Napoleonic ACW and wwii in both seniors and juniors. The latter became the most important for bringing in new members.
I posted this on the Little Wars site too, but thought might apply here: I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart breaking. The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone. There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games. This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore. If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms. .
Yep, TTS is well known in the world of historical wargaming. There are loads of mods for Chain of Command, Blucher, etc that I have seen on the platform. It's a good thing during the pandemic, really.
I think you're very right about the ease of entry that some historical war games have these days. Being able to just buy the rule book and a starter army make it much more inviting to new players as it's easy for them to see what they need to get started. Even games like Flames of War which add a campaign book to the starting mix is still a pretty simple way to start. After the player has a few games under their belt, then they can start figuring out what other miniatures they'd like to add to their army.
The fact there is a large number of Historicals manufacturers speaks volumes in itself. And in that I lump figure manufacturers, terrain, rules, magazines... if there wasnt a market, and by extension a solid hobby base to sell to, they wouldnt still be in business!!
You hit the issue right on the head - available time and cash. I did a lot of wargaming when I was a teen into my early twenties, then life intervened along with work, marriage, university, and children etc. In my mid 40's I finally had the time and funds to get back into it and wargaming has been my primary hobby for the last decade plus.
Cheers, yep, I now have way more money than I ever had before and spend appropriately! I practically lived on the road during my 20s and 30s, so it's only recently that I've been more settled and able to indulge myself.
I started gaming 62 years ago with Hex and Counter Board Wargames and about 45 years ago, I started playing with Miniatures. I agree with you that miniature gaming is still strong. It is has changed and adapted but I still play in my mid 70's. Board Hex and counter wargaming has declined since the 70's. Good video!
Followed the channel mate. As i said on FB It's a very good question and one we should be looking at. Not just for gaming but for interest in history. We can play our games, teach history and make it fun to the young ones.
Thank you, that's much appreciated. Yep, a huge part of historical gaming for me is the history itself and playing games for fun is key to engaging new players.
The only people "dying" are we the wargamers. Just sayin'... :D I've been dying since the moment I was ejected from womb. It's been a wonderful life since then! Keep painting, keep gaming. Enjoy your mates. Have fun. Fun. FUN!
As someone who is newly interested in the hobby (I’m young) I find it tough to play because my friends have the attention span of a gnat even though they enjoy history. Also I’m having trouble finding a club or group to play with near me and because I’m so young it’s a very expensive hobby too. As a newcomer I noticed these things that may be some obstacles for the growth of Wargaming, but I don’t think the hobby is dying!
@@logankevitt8401 good to hear we have new blood. Yep, it can be expensive, but buying things when you can afford them makes them that bit more special. Have a look at my other videos on solo wargaming, there may be some ideas in there if you ever fancy just setting up a game for yourself. I'd be surprised if there isnt a club close to you, there are a few club directories online, alternatively join a forum like The Wargames Website and ask on there?
I’ve just got into wargaming in general(40k) but the idea of historical is pretty cool just seems from my perspective like there are too many time periods of interest to get enough people on the same page
I think there's a few things to consider 1 you already captured and a point I certainly agree with is when older we tend to have more disposable income. Also 35 years ago I was playing with the seniors and we did a mix of ACW, Star Fleet Battles, Medieval, WW2, Laserburn with Daleks. Then 40K launched and I played that and stuck with 40K till about 5 years ago when I've been branching out to Historical. My last point is a survey is only completed by those in the hobby and what I mean by this such as with myself is we start gaming as kids/teens and then real world with wine women and song happens, and for others they go onto a family and a mortgage which isn't settled until there of the greying generation. Look at forums across the board and you'll see posts about down sizing due to life commitments (ie giving up the hobby due to other priorities) and how many equal number of after x years and often a direct nod to kids of to uni/life of their own and I'm getting back into the hobby. So really are these surveys just capturing the natural flow of many a gamers life, gaming at thee start, gap in the middle and hey presto were all old all of sudden cause we outnumber the younguns when going back to the hobby. I also didn't complete these sort of surveys till I was hitting my mid 40s.
It certainly seems to be changing. Games involving small groups of figures seem to be on the rise. I would guess that this is driven by a desire to start playing faster, rather than having to spend lots of time (and money) on large armies before starting. I also think that smaller 'gang' games probably fit better on the dining room table than the 'more traditional' 6' x 4' table with hundreds of figures. Things are changing, but then again they always have and always will. When they stop changing then we should worry, until then not so much.
I have been hearing that historical Wargaming is dying for 50 years and all I have seen is growth. If you look at major companies manufacturing miniatures there are more today than there have ever been. People as they get older and become part of the grey part of the hobby lament there aren't enough young people involved which isn't true. You just aren't gaming with them as they are gaming with mates their own age the same as you are.
Yep, this is something that rears its head every few years really, and every few years the answer is the same as far as I am concerned. it was interesting to see the difference in opinions in the two sides of the Atlantic in the original Little Wars TV video.
You are right in my opinion, there are much more people in historical wargaming than 20 years ago. But they are inn other ways connected if at all. Now there are a many small groups which do not show up on the surface.
Yes, there's lots of splinter groups within the wider hobby, but that has always been the case as well, it's more pronounced now with the different FB groups and the like as well.
I completely agree with this. The hobby isn’t dying out, it is the group of middle aged men beeing replaced by new men entering their middle age 🤣 me included.
Clearly most people don't think it's dying and here in Australia it certainly is alive and well. Interesting though about the decline of US manufacturers. I've rarely seen US gear in shops here so that doesn't influence things much. The local and overseas choices of games/rules/stuff are much broader than at anytime and social media helps to link it all up. I agree that NOW is the Golden Age.
Very interesting video and discussion - thank you. I will share some thoughts from my country - Poland. The wargaming as such is growing constantly since mid 1990's, with faster growth from 2000's. Initially it was almost only Games Workshop, later Infinity etc. But after several years of playing fantasy and science fiction, and when people started to earn more money, I saw that more and more players wanted to try something new. And here comes historical wargaming, where you have to win by tactics, and not by just army rooster, OP magic or characters. So I see two groups interested in historical wargaming: Experienced wargames who want something else than fantasy and SF. Most of them will play Bolt Action, Flames of War, Black Powder, a number of them play our our Gods of War: Lee in 6 mm scale. The second group is young people who are interested in history. Their biggest challenge is to paint miniatures, not every one want or can do that (first group don't have problems with it). So where I see challenge is to persuade young people to paint miniatures or at least to give their miniatures to some professional painter to be painted. But there are new players coming in. So in Poland - I thought you may be interested in situation also from my country - it's not dying our, just the opposite.
Very good points. Actually, we are seeing new and motivated comers. As you said, people coming from GW and/or with an interest in History. However, we cannot say, at least around us, that the community is as dynamic as a thriving hobby. More like a greying generation with some new blood, not a second generation coming behind.
I have been involved since the early 80’s and I concur with what the speaker says; fantasy has provided an excellent gateway into historical figure gaming and a battle in a box appeals to those who are not yet confident model makers and painters.
Agree 100%. US viewer/gamer here. While the hobby isn’t rapidly expanding here, it is doing well. Those that do play are dedicated - thinking of the old adage that the best customer is a repeat customer. The need is that the hobby needs to diversify a bit by encouraging different aspects of gaming historically and understanding the strengths of war gaming over video games. Biggest barrier to entry is having enough mentors to help new gamers navigate the hobby and find what they like (or not) and encourage newbies to stay active and playing.
Yep, at the very worst it remains the same as always. I don't think it is shrinking by any means and i agree with the diversification, but that is noticeably happening these days.
Really looking forward to challenging your head in a jar to a game of Chain of Command. I’ll probably lose that one too! 😂 Excellent response and obviously completely aligned with the views I expressed in the video.
Ha ha, I can just imagine various heads in jars arguing about dice rolls in the future... Thanks Henry, I liked your response in the original video as well, it was well considered and accurate I think.
Storm of Steel Wargaming I just thought it was a rather lazy “Aunt Sally” premise in the first place, headline-grabbing rather than based on any evidence. If it had been “real statistics and business closures indicate that historical wargaming is in serious decline” then we’d have something real to debate, rather than what I see as lazy, tabloid-style journalism. But then I spent ten years running magazines where I had to be sure contributors weren’t making baseless claims. In fact, even in America there’s the notable success of Jim Purky with Fife & Drum and Minden Miniatures for 18th century stuff Wee Wolf Miniatures, Cigar Box Battle mats to name just a few off the top of my head.
@@HenryHydeCreative I agree the title is a but click baity, but over all there is a very positive response in their original video anyway. Especially from this side of the Atlantic. I dont mind these kind of questions, they have been around since the dawn of gaming, but they also allow everyone to throw their opinion in as well. Like me, for what its worth.
As I pointed out on that video, a big reason why it might seem like it's dying is that most people will only play games with figures they can buy in a game store, which gives the game store a stranglehold on what is "allowed" to be played in a given area. At least that's my experience. So the fact that few historical games are "mainstream" is a big downside to their popularity.
TBH the opposite is true for me, the people I follow on Twitter generally buy their figures directly from the companies producing them. It may be true of the people who game in the games stores, but there are other ways to skin that cat. Obviously local games store like to garden wall their customers, as they have a business to run, which is why the people you mention are directed towards the big sellers, as the owner of the store might not want to take the risk on getting some 10mm Numidians in if they won't sell.
I live in teh USA and at least my local game store is very open to historical The Guild House in Bellflower California.. We start with Wings of Glory and then it grew and they carried it. Then Bolt Action and they loved it. It was and is a very modern game store yet they were like if people show up and play we will support it and it grew .
It can't fizzle out just now... I've got the average wargamers hord to finish yet! I've not enough lifespan to finish it all but that's just par for the course. I agree with your conclusions. It was ever thus...passing the half painted baton from old git to old git. I have not yet progressed from blog to TH-cam channel but give me time.... I'm only 60
A good movie, or mini-series can spark interest - one hobby shop owner I knew said he never said so many sets of US Paratroops after 'Band of Brothers' screened.
At my club (Hackney Area Tabletop Enthusiasts) Bolt Action has been a gateway for a decent number of players to move into historical gaming and we are constantly playing new periods and different scales. Most of us are the people described in your video, late 30's- 40s men, played GW games since we were kids but wanted something a bit different. Bolt action acted as that jumping in point as its easy to understand and cheap (for a war game). What I would say might be changing is the type of historical war gaming going on as I don't see myself or any of my club mates going down the road of spending £1000's and 1000's of hours painting a massive 1/72 or 28mm scale Napoleonic army or any single army really that is a multi year investment in time as I know gamers of a older generation did.
I love the club's acronym! I agree, the older style of bigger armies may be the biggest change in the field, but there still are those few that create the big armies (myself included). But as an entry things like Bolt Action are great for getting the hook into new players.
Didn't realize you were a local! And I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, Games Workshop style and historical gaming BOTH have their parts to play and should not be exclusive of each other, I see it as odd as the rivalry between Sci-Fi series!
@@StormofSteelWargaming Rotherham here and I play both types of game, which is why I hate it when historical gamers look down at GW gamers and vice versa.
@@ianchappell3062 good man! Rotherham here as well. I only play a couple of scifi games, Judge Dredd, Star Wars and stuff like Arkham Horror. I'm not a fan of GW, but if that's your bag, good for you.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Exatecly, you might not liek it but I assume you wouldn't mind playing a game or two. I have just started a 6mm Napoelonics collection, but, have WWII in 20mm and AVBCW along side some fantasy and Sail and Steam
From everything I've heard, it sounds like the main reason people think historical wargaming is dying is because most of the players are middle-aged and older, and there are very few new, young players. Trouble is, I've also heard a lot of people say that they only got into historical wargaming as they got older and became less interested in bombastic space-warriors and more interested in nuanced history and tactics. So to me, it sounds less like the hobby is dying, and more like the hobby appeals to an older audience. You don't see new young folks because most of the new folks are middle aged.
It’s definitely not ‘dying out’ in my opinion. I watched the original video and if people have been saying it’s going to die out since the 1980s and it hasn’t yet then why will it anytime soon? These hobbies will always remain. They’re passed down from generation to generation and people get to a certain age and actively seek these kinds of hobbies out... Have model train sets died out? How long have they been around? Airfix? It’s certainly changing and evolving with things like Kickstarter but I wouldn’t say it’s dying out by any means.
I agree completely, at worst I see that it remains constant, but not dying out. As you say, the amount of stuff out there gives us huge choice now. We've never had it so good.
The Little Wars TV video was confusing. It starts out with talking about US historical miniatures gaming, which has been slowly dying out. Sam Mustafa's observations in the beginning of the video pertain only to the US. Here in the US, historical gaming is sometimes compared to gun sales: number of gun owners remains about steady over last two decades or so, but the number of guns sold is way up. How many US historical gamers have loads of miniatures and keep adding to their collection of mostly incomplete gaming projects? Historical gaming in Europe and the UK appears to be robust. These days, nearly all historical miniatures games come from Europe, or the companies originated there.
Yep, I totally agree with the bulk of you - the old fellas in the 80s are now replaced by 'new' old fellas who were young then and so it continues. One question though; the 'grey brigade' who are just getting into historicals - is it because they consider that their memories from being young are now found in the history books, making them part of history itself, hence the greater interest in past eras? One problem which has always been and getting worse is the fact that there are almost as many rulesets as gamers. Find your local group and see what they are playing, and maybe try to get them to try the period you are in to. As has been pointed out, there is a LOT more choice in figures (& scales) than when I first started in the 70s. Long live the hobby.
I could write War and Peace on this but I'll refrain. Suffice to say I hope that dying implies decline and anyone who feels historical wargaming is waning compared to a conceived prior golden age - when was that? I've never had greater access to figures and ranges of figures ever- and I've been wallowing in this madness for over 40 years. Comparative growth might be behind sci-fi or fantasy (I call it playing with dolls) but I don't recall a better time.
If you call sci-fi and fantasy “playing with dolls”, what do you consider historicals? Whether we like it or not we are all playing with toys - it doesn’t matter what’s getting pushed around the table. Embrace your inner child. . . BTW - my toys can beat up your toys!!😀😂
No - It's evolving. So much more in figures & scenery too is available these days. Yes add Si-Fi & futuristic (and alternative), games also. Wargaming is growing / expanding in general (look at 'Salute' in London when the Excel centre is available - South London Wargamers run it, several thousand usually attend the one day event - get ready for the next one. Since H.G.Wells wrote his 'Little Wars' book (still available), there have been several more 'historical' wars since to add to the list - If you're interested in tactics and nobody actually getting injured - there's something out there for you....
I completely agree that it's not at all in danger. If anything the historical game is stronger than it ever was. Of course fantasy and sci-fi have also grown, and maybe more so, but that doesnt mean to say that historical is dying. I've been gaming since 1985 and I believe there are so many more historical games and figures and companies producing such than ever before.
im 21 but it realy took awhile for me to get the right amount of intreast in history. i know that some people start getting realy intrested when they are 30-40. that is also another part people might forget
Yeah, I mentioned that a lot of people get ore interested in history as they age. But some of us, like yourself and me are interested from a young age.
Throwing in my 2 US cents. I don't think the hobby is dying...currently. 30+ years ago I would go into the hobby shop (there was 1 in Miami at the time) and see model kits of military vehicles, Dungeons & Dragons, some hex and chit wargames, and maybe some miniature figures (along with RC cars and planes). I was drawn into model kits because I had that 1 odd older cousin who was also into that. And in time I moved into sci-fi modeling kits and one came across Rogue Trader in the late 80s. That's how I got into the hobby. But, it was a much different time and on this side of the Atlantic it's a much different environment. Miniature games and dioramas seem to be a much more accepted pursuit over there than it was here. But again, that was then. Taking a look at a 12 year old now and seeing if they would be interested in wargaming at all much less historical is questionable. That child has had video games all their lives and has a portable gaming device in their phone. Tying into that is that, honestly, the US has had a serious shift towards anything resembling intellectualism. Knowing things, reading, voluntarily learning are all frowned upon if not actively discouraged. I'm not going to get into our current politics but when even video games did away with printed instruction manuals and guides because gamers could no longer be bothered to read them then what motivates someone to read a 100+ wargame over just playing a video game. If they have an interest in Roman history it's much simpler to just load up Total War than read a manual, purchase and assemble figures, assemble some terrain/set aside a playing area, paint said figures, and get someone to dedicate a few hours of time to play a single scenario. And I'm not just saying it's easier to play a video game than a miniature wargame (you can't argue that it's not) but you're also competing as well with regular boardgaming. Boardgames have blown up in recent years and there are many more players now than ever. But even getting them to come over from boardgaming to wargaming is often like pulling teeth. Firstly, many boardgamers don't even read the enclosed rules and learn to play from online videos. And, it's notoriously hard to get most of them to play any longer duration, more complex games (though many love their exceedingly complex Eurogames). Many don't seem to want to get into anything more complex than Memoir '44. And the last barrier is the modeling aspect of the hobby. I came from a background of building model kits so I had no issues transitioning to building and painting but getting a younger generation to clip parts of sprues, scrape mold lines, glue together figures, prime them, paint them, then base them is a very serious set of hurdles. So the problems I see for the future of the hobby (say in 30 years or so) is getting kids today to go down the path where reading large tomes before playing a game is normal, along with putting enough effort into assembling miniatures (I'm not even concerned with painting or terrain), and dedicating the batch of time needed to play a game somehow beats out turning on a machine and playing a video game after a few minutes. The social factor is removed thanks to online gaming. And, honestly, I'm not even considering the cost of wargaming to be a barrier when the next wave of consoles will go for $500 with games at $70 a pop, before addons and other monetizations. I'm hoping that the anti-intellectual atmosphere in the US changes in the near future but if not that also remains another barrier. So what factor does a miniature wargame offer that a video game can't? Sorry if this is long and rambling but I see all of these factors as strongly diminishing the wargame community (much less historical wargaming) in the near future. And I'm not alone as even our SE branch of the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society in Florida had started (pre-2020) including teen tournaments to our two big conventions in Florida. As has been said, I think historical wargaming in the UK and Europe will be able to renew and sustain their communities over time but I see it having a much harder time in the US as the decades pass.
Agree, our hobby has to do some shifting to pre painting minis and some simpler, faster rules and flexible terrain in order to bring in the younger crowd. It’s honestly been the same for me, I get tired of the hours and hours just to play 1 game
I have heard this old chestnut almost as long as I have been buying miniatures and looking to play with what ever rules I could find. Early in my life I was buying Aixfix soldiers and using rules found at a local hobby shop. Was I a historical wargamer? Latter I got into D and D, RPGs, and boxed games, some historical others not so much. Was I a historical wargamer then? Later I did more board games, magazine games mostly historical. I did American Civil War and World War II. I even did the whole of Tarawa on the table. Today I have ships, fantasy dogs and 1940 World War II troops on the painting bench. I still play board games and RPGs so what does that make me? The first question for me is, what is a historical wargamer? Does that mean Bolt Action for some and Chain of Command for others. How historical is it? Second are we talking the hobby world wide? The naysayers were mostly in the US with complaints about major HMGS show and the lack of US manufacturers. For me I do not care where I get my rules and miniatures. It can be a store, online, at a show, or trading with another gamer. Do I want to buy American, sure but it is not the reason I do it. If you want to see more US produced rules, feel free to write them. I attend smaller local shows, buy from the vendors and have fun. I attended 1 major show last year and the games were fun but I bought things that were already on the list to get online. Not a big win there for the vendors. It was a large show in a major metropolitan area and no one out side of the hobby knew it was there. Lastly we need to make this easier to get involved. You want to play ACW, ok lets start with a skirmish game and unpainted figures. With simple rules mechanics and a couple of boxes of figures you can play same day. You want over the top terrain and painted figures that takes longer. My brother never would play historical miniatures because GW told him all he needed to know game wise. He did not care about the Battle of Fredericksburg or Battle of the Bulge. Ok, he saw the movie. He felt historical wargames had to much baggage and that is true some some. He told me he want to play, not read a history book. So let’s define the question better, look fo better ways to get new gamers in the hobby and lets just have fun, oh and my thoughts, yes I am a historic wargamer and game. And I do not think the hobby is dying out.
My experience in the US historicals are dying out. In my area over the last couple decades 40k has taken over table top gaming. Historical gamers have moved to loose clubs that meet maybe two to four times a year. The problem is there is little interest in historical gaming so the local stores can't afford to stock the products. If there are no products to buy at stores interest goes down more. Also some stores are unfriendly to historical games. One local store banned US civil war games because of the southern flag and WW2 games can't have any german symbols on models.
Certainly not true of my part of the U.S., I mean yes fantasy and sci fi is big and what stores are here don't carry much historical (with the exception of a new one in Richmond) but even with our smaller population we have two historic gaming clubs, mine meets weekly and the other meets twice a week, We also support a number of little conventions in the area, or do in a normal none covid year.
@@CryHavocWarGaming The stores along the gulf coast are catering to the MTG and rpg crowd Some stores have a small amount of D&D figures, a few 40k kits, and a GW paint rack. For historicals maybe a bolt action kit someone special ordered and didn't buy. For a proper miniature wargame store you'd have to go to the GW store in new orleans. For historical gaming there is a club that does a FOG ancients tournament maybe twice a year and there are 4+ cons (none are specifically for miniatures).
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I started watching that Little Wars video yesterday but I stoped after first few minutes and I'm not sure if I want to continue... It struck me as very US centring - they gave me an impression that they are living in some kind of bubble in the US and don't know and don't care what is going around the world.
First of all, I will state that I love the Little Wars channel. How anyone interprets what they do as anything but good for the hobby is beyond me, but we are all entitled to an opinion. I also don't see it as clickbait. Having spoken to Greg on a couple of occasions, he has a genuine interest in this topic and a desire for the hobby to grow and be accessible to all. To say it is a US centric view is, to be fair, stating the obvious. Little Wars is US based, but they have canvassed opinion from the UK too and one of the interesting points is that the UK does seem to be in a good place. I have never attended a US convention so can only go from what I hear. Their events still seem well attended although what the demographic is I couldn't say. When Sam mentions that there are few content producers in the US, I'm not certain he says there are none...just not many. Greg himself has written two excellent ruleset. The Disposable Heroes rules were written by members of Greg's club and they were pretty successful. So there is good content and products coming out of the US. Pro rata, maybe far less than the UK, but it's still there. My own club is a good example of how younger members into 40k can become involved in historical gaming. For me the issue is for the older generation to make the hobby as inviting and as inclusive as we can. Don't turn our backs on younger gamers who show an interest in the hobby. Actively encourage them to roll dice with you, explain the history of the game you're playing. Generate the excitement that is historical gaming and light that spark that will make them come back for more. I come from the generation of men who were given boxes of toy soldiers to play with and made guns from sticks to play war with in the local park. I'm not sure this happens anymore...boxes of toy soldiers are replaced by computer games. But the likes of Total War and Call of Duty are to me those boxes of toy soldiers that fire the imagination, and might lead to an interest in our hobby. With GW on most high streets, the concept of buying, building, painting and playing with toy soldiers isn't a strange one to many youngsters. Exposure to the wider hobby beyond GW, may be. Without a local club that plays historicals, a youngster might never have the exposure. We have relatively few independent game stores where that youngster can see Bolt Action or Flames of War being played. How we capture those people and show them historical gaming is the question. Gaming has never been in such a strong place. It's becoming increasingly socially acceptable. The Perry twins were in the Economist for goodness sake! There has never been more choice. You can buy historical miniatures for the same price I was paying 30 years ago due to how cheap plastics are. To be negative about why this question has been asked is in my humble opinion poor form. It has generated a lot of debate. It has, as Alex says, started a conversation. Agree, disagree, or sit on the fence are all valid responses. But to question the motives of why the question was asked? I don't get it. I'll end this longer than intended comment by saying....lets all play nice. Listen to one another. Respect all opinion even if you don't agree with it. Join the debate. This is the greatest hobby in the world and long may that continue.
I.) I find that people who got into gaming via fantasy or sci fi are extremely blinkered with respect to historicals. They don't know what they don't know, and that the realities of historical conflict were much more bizzarre and incredible that imaginary tropes. They think the fictional settings are richer, when in fact the opposite is true, so these gamers are usually lost to us unless we can make the sale and remedy their lack of information. II.) Political scolds make some periods or armies less popular, and younger people seem to be much more sensitive to social pressure so skip historicals entirely to avoid censure; as a result, more of these games are played privately or in smaller circles and so appear to be in decline when in fact the venue has shifted, and the numbers remain stable. III.) Historicals are more easily played solo. Established doctrine or known, scripted battle plans make it easier to replay given actions to play 'what ifs'. Solo gamers of course drop of the radar almost entirely. IV.) A clear exception to the above is in the arena of Ancients gaming. A lot of young people get pulled in when they see warbands, legions, phalanxes, elephants etc. etc. in any scale. If the rules are not too dense it is an easy sell to make, and an easy transition from fantasy which is mostly derivative from ancients. Ancients minis are exciting. Korean War, not so much for most hobbyists. V.) Relative to the last point, I think that contemporary, future and near future conflict wargaming with the right miniatures and rules could pull people in from scifi. We are on the cusp of it after all, with smart munitions, AI directed AFVs and robot soldiers, etc. VI.) Despite all of the above, I find myself more and more like the closed off grognards of my youth who played Napoleonics, and only Napoleonics, and only with their tight circle of friends. The new guy in their group joined ten years ago or more. They did not want me or my friends and made that clear. But I think gaming is expanding, on balance, including historicals but not at the rate of fantasy and scifi. VII.) I have used Roman numerals in this post to underscore my personal antiquity, dignity and gravity. Now, punks, get off my lawn!
I think Historical wargaming will grow, especially if we're including stuff like Flames of War and Bolt Action. I used to play a bit of Flames of War and I still have some models lying around and the books. I don't think it'll die out, but I think there are a couple of factors to keep into account. 1. Older demographics do tend to go for it. Not particularly sure why, but if your young and you do it, you're probably a history buff in some respect. Uncle Atom does a good video about age and historical wargaming and I certainly agree that certain demographics and age groups go for it more. In my old club it was mostly military guys who played FOW because it was close to their job. 2. I think there are some things that are going to impede it's growth. GW has been making plays at expanding their demographic to be more than white guys with disposable income with their marketing and statements about inclusion. I think this is a great thing. But, it also shows that there is a strong following within the wargaming community in general who are either willingly or unwillingly ignorant to that or who are actively hostile to the hobby becoming more "mainstream" or diverse, they'd rather people who look like them play. I'm for sure not saying this is the community on its own, but I've met plenty of racists and bigots who play this. But that exists in nerd culture in general, it's a slow and necessary change but it's changing nonetheless. I don't think many companies are willing or in fact able to do that yet; whether for historical reasons of local culture and custom (like England in the middle-ages). But others, like to pick on FOW are set in time periods that feature things like Nazis and Swastikas and imagery like that, like for example someone having a fully painted SS division with a DYI nazi flag hanging off of a tank can be unnerving for a lot of people. Or when FOW sold SS accessories, it's one thing to include the rules and models for a historical campaign, it's another thing to cash in on the imagery or dress up as German soldiers during battle demos. It can come off as tone-deaf and in poor taste for an army that killed millions of people and committed war crimes. 3. There aren't a lot of unifying factors and eras. WH40k and AoS/Fantasy are popular because they exist on a singular timeline, you can have Empire and Vampire Count armies battle and say it's set in the vampire wars or in the end times and the rules/models won't change. But, your Roman Legion can't play against my Boshin War Samurai rebels. The vastness of History and the plethora of companies out there setting bits and pieces does hold it back, the exception being the WWII/20th century scene where FOW and Bolt Action are doing well. Basically, I think historical wargaming will grow or shrink a little bit over the years, it certainly has a leg up now because of internet exposure even though there aren't a lot of content creators or outlets that can really market the hobby the same way GW or D&D can market their own hobby. I think historical wargaming will be stagnant for awhile and feed off of interest people have in GW as they learn more about the hobby and go from there. FOW and BoltAction will serve as likely entry points.
Great contribution to the debate Alex I think this is an incredibly difficult question to answer given the evidence is almost entirely anecdotal. The great war game survey has made a start but as there wasn’t an equivalent survey in 1970 or 80 the comparative data doesn’t exist With the advent of the net with TH-cam, Twitter etc a very small demographic can interact in a way that was never possible in the past. For those of us who are playing be that greying , balding or otherwise it certainly is the golden age with excellent rule sets and every scale and period catered for Regards James
Thanks buddy, that is the issues that there is no comparable data, but attending the wargaming shows as I do, I don't see any drop off in attendance, maybe slightly through the bank crisis, but now things are as healthy as ever (Covid, not withstanding).
I think a big factor is the breaking down of the barriers that historical wargamers used to put between themselves and the rest of the tabletop gaming hobby. When I was young the idea of a game like X-Wing being given space at our local wargaming convention would have been laughable. Now I run an event there every year. The as long as the community continues to get less elitist (not complaining about the colour of buttons on the tunics of people's Flintloque Orcs just because they look like British Napoleonic troops and so on) there will be a draw for people on the Sci-Fi & Fantasy side to at least give it a go.
For me with historical wargaming love the pulp era early 20th century. Most stuff painted millatry types but like fact done warlord 1920s chinese and white russains don Cossacks It's colourful period and love that. But also like fact that era is also supernatural occult with fact call of cthaual 1920/30/40s crime vilgalaties explores the options are endless and love that.
I also really like Pulp gaming set in the early 20th Century. I use Pulp Alley for that. Use it for other historical periods too, such as samurai. Like needing less figures and a fun system.
Wargaming doesn’t HAVE to be historical. I have been wargaming since I was 13 yo, and am now 66. I war game with WW2 models in Europe mostly, but have the models and wargame WWI airplanes/dogfights, Feudal Japan/Samurai, WW2 Naval ships. Get hobby in buying, building painting, making scenery, etc and just playing.
I don't think its dying out, or in any way struggling, but I do agree with the comment that it is starting to get too fragmented. When I started (and I'm one of those grey beards now) you played Newbury Rules for Napoleonic and WRG for Ancients. Now there is so much choice that there are literally dozens of systems to choose from for each period and that presents its own problems. And some of the recent rulesets are very complex (in terms of the detail they encompass) which also adds another barrier to entry. I've been out of the hobby for a number of years and would love to get back into Napoleonics, but where to start?
Where to start in Napoleonics? I would recommend Blucher by Sam Mustafa, you can also buy sets of unit cards so you don't even have to spend time painting figures!
@@StormofSteelWargaming Thanks for that recommendation. I hadn't even heard of that rule set (which supports the argument that there's almost too much choice I guess) but its great to have a suggestion as to where to start from someone who knows his way around. Much appreciated.
@@alans3023 You're welcome. If you have a look on my AAR playlist on this channel you'll find a refight of Waterloo and Quatre-Bras using the Blucher rules. It may give you an idea of how the game works (although I make loads of mistakes...)
I think historical wargaming is as alive as you make it personally. If you and your small circle do it and you have access to as much stuff as you want in whatever scale you want, then I would say it is pretty much alive and well. to a point, that’s all that matters. I know years ago historical boardgames were produced in their tens of thousands, these days not so much, but what happens now is that the good tittles get re-prints and overall there are more games and more diverse games being produced, so maybe that all balances out. It’s never really been a huge hobby, but the people who it does hold are generally very enthusiastic and passionate about what they do. that seems as true today as it was 40 years ago. My neighbours have two sons who have gone to Uni and both are doing history related studies.
People are always saying the hobby is dying- you see it many other hobbies and pastimes too, fishing and cricket to name two from my own experiences. They tend to self perpetuate though- probably never going a huge surge in popularity, there's so many alternatives these days. But dying? No.
Historical wargaming must mature within :) takes a couple decades to grow to completion, and by then chaps are middle aged'farts :D Is it dying ? No. It is maturing continually as wine. Every year new crops are taken, every year a new aged wine comes to completion.
I started at 12, I'm 38 now. I don't see it as dying out... but my perspective is that it is much more popular in the UK than in the US. A lot of the reason for this difference are based in larger US social issues. The quality of life for younger Americans is far below what it was for their parents at the same age; younger people have little money, less space, rarely own their own homes, much more debt, and must move often for jobs. The cost of living has skyrocketed in the US, and jobs that pay well demand lots more hours. People don't have the time to paint large miniature soldier armies; their small amounts of free time are devoted to limited in-person social outlets available (I'm talking pre-COVID here). At the same time, video games have addicted millions of younger Americans (literally addicted). So, there's a lot of pressure, not only on wargaming, but on all traditional hobbies and pass times. Very few Americans read books for pleasure any more, for instance. Basically, our society is going downhill, fast. That said, I've created my own model soldier company, and I'm about to publish a pretty revolutionary set of wargame rules (where models are optional). So I am a believer...?
Having more money and time has always been the reserve of the older members of society, so I don't think that has changed much, but there are more distractions now, but that said when I started in the 80s there were other distractions as well.
Storm of Steel Wargaming I agree. But I’m suspicious of the reports that show a wealth gap in the generations. In my city, pre-COVID, there has been a huge increase in the number of game stores. Far more game-related businesses exist now and they are filled with Millennial aged gamers with enough disposable income to keep the stores in business. If a wealth gap exists, then it is likely due to fewer Millennials purchasing homes, getting married, and having children; not from a lack of disposable income or time. The trend about people reading fewer books started long before the Millennials showed up. The lack of interest in history has also been going on for a long time as well.
Face it, tabletop gaming takes TIME and RESOURCES. Both these things aren't prevalent in a person's life until really post mid 30's. Add into the mix that stability in living circumstances is also required to a degree. Not until you're pushing 40 are these usually sorted out.
Dont think gaming will die out, but saying that i am selling all my flames of war stuff, i got loads of it,but that is so i can get something else,flames of war has taken over my house over the years,no room left😆😆😆😆🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
@@phillhollowell4122 which is probably why a lot of companies are moving to plastic and resin. Also 3D printing is having a massive impact across the hobby as well.
@@StormofSteelWargaming agŕeed, also the cost needs to stay low to attract younger players, look whats happened to games workshop ,its way overpriced and just about sales, but yeah the plastic we are seeing is very good, victrix,warlord,etc, the choice of 1/72 scale plastic and the superb detail is very good aswell👍👍👍
All you have to do is get Hasbro to re-release about 10 of Avalon Hills best games. Squad Leader, Panzer Leader, etc. Hasbro has NO IDEA how to do this. But they have the distribution channels to get these into stores like WalMart, bookstores, etc. You guys say 'wargaming' and you mean miniatures. Other sites say 'wargaming' and they mean video games. I say 'wargaming' and I think Avalon Hill type games.
Its a sketch of a wooden Viking carving in Iceland that a friend did for me. You've just got a dirty mind, which is not surprising with that surname...
@@StormofSteelWargaming I recently retired from teaching but did about 2 terms on line with zoom lessons - I was so paranoid about backgrounds that I ended up putting up a white sheet.
@@stephennutt4083 Just so you know, it's just a drawing of this: www.alamy.com/wooden-viking-statue-by-asgeir-julius-asgeirsson-on-the-stokksnes-peninsula-near-hfn-iceland-image356058781.html
@@StormofSteelWargaming I couldn't find any in AZ when I lived there (a year ago) either... This is purely annecdotal but there seems to be no way to find people who play games these days
Absolutely dying out. The average age is in the 60s and new players are few and far between. You are seeing the dead cat bounce in that more is being spent in the hobby because all the old duffers' have more discretionary income because they are so old the house is paid for and the kids are gone. In 10 - 20 years when they are all in homes the hobby will be dead. Everyone under the age of 60 is playing on the computer or fantasy sci-fi. Even Historicon already has more and more sci-fi fantasy miniature games to try and stay viable.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Where? In England? There Historical Miniatures seem to be thriving I will give you that. I remember when Historicon was nothing but historicals, not so anymore, and it wasn't that long ago.
@@thewarroom9028 yep, in Britain, I can't speak for America, but here there's absolutely no problems and if anything it's growing. Maybe if people in the States were more inclined to promote the hobby and make new events, rather than relying on others to continue, then youd see a change. We are all responsible.
Well, LWTV isn't doing anything to support the hobby. Their "club" doesn't permit new people; it's restricted to their own exclusive little group. If they opened up to the public, I think they'd see that wargaming is not dying.
@@OlStinky1 They posed a question, opened it up to the public and got the answer that it wasn't dying. It would be worthwhile watching their video before commenting on it.
Their club does permit new people. They state many times that I'd you're in the area, get in touch and they'll welcome you for a game. Point me to where they say they don't accept new gamers? Like any club, they have a right to turn you away if you don't conform to club rules...their club house is privately owned. Also I'm not sure they hold themselves up as being any better than any other club. They made a decision to make a few videos for TH-cam which are enjoyed by thousands. Nothing more nothing less. Without content providers like them, and others, TH-cam would be a pretty dull place. Have you done anything to contribute? Let us know. I'm not saying you haven't...just that if you do, then you'll know how much time and effort it takes for no reward.
The first time I heard someone suggesting that historical wargamig was in danger of dying out was back in 1969 when I was 13. The hobby wasn't in danger then and it isn't in danger now that I'm 64. The hobby has changed, but I think it's changed for the better and I have never felt so spoiled for choice. My problem is choosing what games to invest in, there are more excellent games (historical, SF and fantasy) I'd like to get involved in than I can possibly manage to find time for. Life is just too short.
Yep, it's a good problem to have, having too much choice! I agree, it hasn't died in anyway in the last three decades that I have gamed either, only expanded.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Problem with the "too much choice" results in having a lot of difficulty to find players that play the same set of rules/period than you. That is, for me, the main reason why historical wargame is in bad shape. I wouldn't say that it is dead, but it is definitely weaker than it was.
I've heard the argument that the increase in skirmish and large scale skirmish games has encouraged more people to get into the hobby. No longer does one need an army of 2-300 figures to play. anything from 20 to 50 figures can work for things like Sharpe Practice, Lion Rampant, Blood and Plunder etc etc etc. Also the attitude that leans towards having a fun game rather than historical pedantry helps.
Your experience matches mine. Reading through old issues of the British Model Soldier Society's old bulletin (in the 1950s) shows how much historical miniature gaming has grown since that time.
An excellent response video--thoughtful, measured opinions and observations. Your view that the historical side of the hobby is "treading water to slightly growing" is one shared by 75% of the people we interviewed. Hopefully next week you'll be willing to weigh in with some ideas on how we can go from "slightly growing" to "absolutely growing!" It's a discussion I think those of us in the community now can and should have. Are there steps we can take together to lower the barrier to entry and get even more new players interested in giving this hobby a try?
Cheers, I am glad you enjoyed the response. I will have a think over the week about the barriers, but I am also trying to tackle those with my series of introductory videos for the historical side of things. As you guys have a huge audience, maybe that is one thing to try. I'll ponder some more and look forward to your next video on the subject.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Hah, a "huge audience" by historical wargaming standards perhaps! But for a Warhammer/GW channel we wouldn't even be on the radar! Doing an introductory video series for new players is a great idea. Love it.
@@LittleWarsTV if I had half the subscribers you guys do, I'd be a very happy man!
The two periods many folks get into gaming is before they married and after they retire. I was a heavy gamers before I got married, once married my gaming dropped because my focus was on my job, but now I am approaching retirement my gaming is increasing. This does not describe everyone, but this is a hobby which attracted reasonably intelligent folks with good career prospects, who may have a similar experience to myself. If this is correct the older will always outnumber the younger because you only have a small window of gaming when you are young, perhaps 10 years maximum, and as long as you look after yourself, you have a longer period of gaming when you retire, hopefully 20 years.
Couldn’t agree more, spent the last 25 years building a career and raising kids. Gaming dropped off to nothing except for a little painting late at night. I am getting back into it with nearly being an empty nester
@@kartchner7 Just make sure you look after your health so you can game for many years after retirement.
This is an interesting topic and I’m glad the guys at LW broached the subject. It is an issue that we as gamers need to take seriously, regardless of whether or not we agree with the statement. I’ve been gaming for 46 years, and my love of the hobby (fortunately) is supported by my very understanding non-gamer wife. Is miniature gaming dying out? I don’t think so. The arrival of fantasy and sci-fi miniatures games has done a lot to bolster the hobby. However, I do feel that historical miniatures gaming may be slipping slightly, although I wouldn’t say it’s dying out. My opinion stems from the fact that the new generation is used to doing things faster, with immediate gratification. They are also very attached to their electronic devices. The fact that many schools are now going virtual is not helping this one bit.
I say this with nothing but affection; but, miniatures gaming is the complete antithesis of immediate gratification. You have to save up a significant amount of money to buy the rules/minis/terrain/etc.. You have to invest an enormous amount of time painting said minis and making the terrain (or, you have to save up additional money to buy everything painted). Plus the rules themselves require time and effort to digest. Added to that is the fact that military history is being taught less and less with each passing school year, meaning that fewer kids are being exposed to this amazing subject.
I don’t think the Historical Miniatures Apocalypse is going to happen - at least not for a very long time. But, my point is we all need to band together and find a way to expose these youngsters to this hobby, so it will continue to flourish.
I agree, it is the younger generations that will keep things afloat, but also those people who have the time and income to spend on the hobby are equally important.
I'm 21 and I've been in and out of fantasy/scifi minis for the best part of 10 years, and I got really into 40k over the last 4 years. Now I'm turning my focus towards building myself a medieval army, starting with a few units to represent the end of the hundred years war, since it will be a could place to start if I want to expand to before the hundred years war, or on to the war of the roses.
So I would count myself as one of the younger ones coming in to the hobby.
Good to have you on board. Don't forget that wargaming doesnt just have to be one or the other. I play historical and science fiction games.
@@StormofSteelWargaming yes I plan on collecting whatever I like the look of, and play whatever I actually enjoy at the moment.
@@danielbateman6518 good man!
DBA : the rule book itself gives you an army list for all the ancient and medieval armies and they are a good starting point as there are only 12 bases in an armies.
However DBMM is great, the armies are anything from 100 points (the same size as DBA) to 400 or even 500 points.
Some armies like Hundred Years War English will give you a small elite army where some of the eastern armies are quite large with light troops and irregulars cost less in points.
It is the only wargame rules that have international, national and regional competitions.
I first started back in the seventies with fifteen mm Napoleonics and American Civil War. Later I added WW two naval and Battletech. I have never truly stopped just sometimes some of my armies will sit on their shelves for months and months but sooner or latter they wander back on the table. I have lived in many parts of the United States and over the years collected many armies because in different places different games rule.
There used to be a National Wargames competition every year. Regional finals for southeast , southwest, East Midlands West Midlands north east north west Scotland and Wales. The winners in each region went on to the national finals.
However holding a game show in the local town hall became far to expensive but we always found somewhere.
The periods were ancient medieval renaissance Napoleonic ACW and wwii in both seniors and juniors.
The latter became the most important for bringing in new members.
I have been gaming for 40 years and in all that time people have been saying it is dying but if anything i think now it is stronger than its ever been
Yep, I totally agree.
I posted this on the Little Wars site too, but thought might apply here:
I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart breaking.
The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone.
There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games.
This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore.
If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms.
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Yep, TTS is well known in the world of historical wargaming. There are loads of mods for Chain of Command, Blucher, etc that I have seen on the platform. It's a good thing during the pandemic, really.
I think you're very right about the ease of entry that some historical war games have these days. Being able to just buy the rule book and a starter army make it much more inviting to new players as it's easy for them to see what they need to get started. Even games like Flames of War which add a campaign book to the starting mix is still a pretty simple way to start. After the player has a few games under their belt, then they can start figuring out what other miniatures they'd like to add to their army.
It was about 15 years ago, but has a recent resurgence. I took a break back then and returned and what a difference now 😳
The fact there is a large number of Historicals manufacturers speaks volumes in itself. And in that I lump figure manufacturers, terrain, rules, magazines... if there wasnt a market, and by extension a solid hobby base to sell to, they wouldnt still be in business!!
David Wilkin not necessarily, it could also mean it's a smaller market of wealthier consumers.
You hit the issue right on the head - available time and cash. I did a lot of wargaming when I was a teen into my early twenties, then life intervened along with work, marriage, university, and children etc. In my mid 40's I finally had the time and funds to get back into it and wargaming has been my primary hobby for the last decade plus.
Cheers, yep, I now have way more money than I ever had before and spend appropriately! I practically lived on the road during my 20s and 30s, so it's only recently that I've been more settled and able to indulge myself.
I started gaming 62 years ago with Hex and Counter Board Wargames and about 45 years ago, I started playing with Miniatures. I agree with you that miniature gaming is still strong. It is has changed and adapted but I still play in my mid 70's. Board Hex and counter wargaming has declined since the 70's. Good video!
Followed the channel mate. As i said on FB It's a very good question and one we should be looking at. Not just for gaming but for interest in history. We can play our games, teach history and make it fun to the young ones.
Thank you, that's much appreciated. Yep, a huge part of historical gaming for me is the history itself and playing games for fun is key to engaging new players.
I've been wargaming for 50 years and its still going strong, and people are still saying its dying out!
Yep, people have been saying it for the thirty years I've been gaming as well.
Same, jdalton3au!
The only people "dying" are we the wargamers. Just sayin'... :D I've been dying since the moment I was ejected from womb. It's been a wonderful life since then! Keep painting, keep gaming. Enjoy your mates. Have fun. Fun. FUN!
As someone who is newly interested in the hobby (I’m young) I find it tough to play because my friends have the attention span of a gnat even though they enjoy history. Also I’m having trouble finding a club or group to play with near me and because I’m so young it’s a very expensive hobby too. As a newcomer I noticed these things that may be some obstacles for the growth of Wargaming, but I don’t think the hobby is dying!
@@logankevitt8401 good to hear we have new blood. Yep, it can be expensive, but buying things when you can afford them makes them that bit more special. Have a look at my other videos on solo wargaming, there may be some ideas in there if you ever fancy just setting up a game for yourself. I'd be surprised if there isnt a club close to you, there are a few club directories online, alternatively join a forum like The Wargames Website and ask on there?
I’ve just got into wargaming in general(40k) but the idea of historical is pretty cool just seems from my perspective like there are too many time periods of interest to get enough people on the same page
I think there's a few things to consider 1 you already captured and a point I certainly agree with is when older we tend to have more disposable income. Also 35 years ago I was playing with the seniors and we did a mix of ACW, Star Fleet Battles, Medieval, WW2, Laserburn with Daleks.
Then 40K launched and I played that and stuck with 40K till about 5 years ago when I've been branching out to Historical.
My last point is a survey is only completed by those in the hobby and what I mean by this such as with myself is we start gaming as kids/teens and then real world with wine women and song happens, and for others they go onto a family and a mortgage which isn't settled until there of the greying generation. Look at forums across the board and you'll see posts about down sizing due to life commitments (ie giving up the hobby due to other priorities) and how many equal number of after x years and often a direct nod to kids of to uni/life of their own and I'm getting back into the hobby. So really are these surveys just capturing the natural flow of many a gamers life, gaming at thee start, gap in the middle and hey presto were all old all of sudden cause we outnumber the younguns when going back to the hobby. I also didn't complete these sort of surveys till I was hitting my mid 40s.
It certainly seems to be changing. Games involving small groups of figures seem to be on the rise. I would guess that this is driven by a desire to start playing faster, rather than having to spend lots of time (and money) on large armies before starting. I also think that smaller 'gang' games probably fit better on the dining room table than the 'more traditional' 6' x 4' table with hundreds of figures. Things are changing, but then again they always have and always will. When they stop changing then we should worry, until then not so much.
I have been hearing that historical Wargaming is dying for 50 years and all I have seen is growth. If you look at major companies manufacturing miniatures there are more today than there have ever been. People as they get older and become part of the grey part of the hobby lament there aren't enough young people involved which isn't true. You just aren't gaming with them as they are gaming with mates their own age the same as you are.
Yep, this is something that rears its head every few years really, and every few years the answer is the same as far as I am concerned. it was interesting to see the difference in opinions in the two sides of the Atlantic in the original Little Wars TV video.
You are right in my opinion, there are much more people in historical wargaming than 20 years ago. But they are inn other ways connected if at all. Now there are a many small groups which do not show up on the surface.
Yes, there's lots of splinter groups within the wider hobby, but that has always been the case as well, it's more pronounced now with the different FB groups and the like as well.
I completely agree with this. The hobby isn’t dying out, it is the group of middle aged men beeing replaced by new men entering their middle age 🤣 me included.
Clearly most people don't think it's dying and here in Australia it certainly is alive and well. Interesting though about the decline of US manufacturers. I've rarely seen US gear in shops here so that doesn't influence things much. The local and overseas choices of games/rules/stuff are much broader than at anytime and social media helps to link it all up. I agree that NOW is the Golden Age.
Very interesting video and discussion - thank you. I will share some thoughts from my country - Poland. The wargaming as such is growing constantly since mid 1990's, with faster growth from 2000's. Initially it was almost only Games Workshop, later Infinity etc. But after several years of playing fantasy and science fiction, and when people started to earn more money, I saw that more and more players wanted to try something new. And here comes historical wargaming, where you have to win by tactics, and not by just army rooster, OP magic or characters. So I see two groups interested in historical wargaming: Experienced wargames who want something else than fantasy and SF. Most of them will play Bolt Action, Flames of War, Black Powder, a number of them play our our Gods of War: Lee in 6 mm scale. The second group is young people who are interested in history. Their biggest challenge is to paint miniatures, not every one want or can do that (first group don't have problems with it). So where I see challenge is to persuade young people to paint miniatures or at least to give their miniatures to some professional painter to be painted. But there are new players coming in. So in Poland - I thought you may be interested in situation also from my country - it's not dying our, just the opposite.
Very good points. Actually, we are seeing new and motivated comers. As you said, people coming from GW and/or with an interest in History. However, we cannot say, at least around us, that the community is as dynamic as a thriving hobby. More like a greying generation with some new blood, not a second generation coming behind.
I have been involved since the early 80’s and I concur with what the speaker says; fantasy has provided an excellent gateway into historical figure gaming and a battle in a box appeals to those who are not yet confident model makers and painters.
Agree 100%. US viewer/gamer here. While the hobby isn’t rapidly expanding here, it is doing well. Those that do play are dedicated - thinking of the old adage that the best customer is a repeat customer. The need is that the hobby needs to diversify a bit by encouraging different aspects of gaming historically and understanding the strengths of war gaming over video games.
Biggest barrier to entry is having enough mentors to help new gamers navigate the hobby and find what they like (or not) and encourage newbies to stay active and playing.
Yep, at the very worst it remains the same as always. I don't think it is shrinking by any means and i agree with the diversification, but that is noticeably happening these days.
Really looking forward to challenging your head in a jar to a game of Chain of Command. I’ll probably lose that one too! 😂
Excellent response and obviously completely aligned with the views I expressed in the video.
Ha ha, I can just imagine various heads in jars arguing about dice rolls in the future... Thanks Henry, I liked your response in the original video as well, it was well considered and accurate I think.
Storm of Steel Wargaming I just thought it was a rather lazy “Aunt Sally” premise in the first place, headline-grabbing rather than based on any evidence. If it had been “real statistics and business closures indicate that historical wargaming is in serious decline” then we’d have something real to debate, rather than what I see as lazy, tabloid-style journalism. But then I spent ten years running magazines where I had to be sure contributors weren’t making baseless claims.
In fact, even in America there’s the notable success of Jim Purky with Fife & Drum and Minden Miniatures for 18th century stuff Wee Wolf Miniatures, Cigar Box Battle mats to name just a few off the top of my head.
@@HenryHydeCreative I agree the title is a but click baity, but over all there is a very positive response in their original video anyway. Especially from this side of the Atlantic. I dont mind these kind of questions, they have been around since the dawn of gaming, but they also allow everyone to throw their opinion in as well. Like me, for what its worth.
As I pointed out on that video, a big reason why it might seem like it's dying is that most people will only play games with figures they can buy in a game store, which gives the game store a stranglehold on what is "allowed" to be played in a given area. At least that's my experience. So the fact that few historical games are "mainstream" is a big downside to their popularity.
TBH the opposite is true for me, the people I follow on Twitter generally buy their figures directly from the companies producing them. It may be true of the people who game in the games stores, but there are other ways to skin that cat. Obviously local games store like to garden wall their customers, as they have a business to run, which is why the people you mention are directed towards the big sellers, as the owner of the store might not want to take the risk on getting some 10mm Numidians in if they won't sell.
I live in teh USA and at least my local game store is very open to historical The Guild House in Bellflower California.. We start with Wings of Glory and then it grew and they carried it. Then Bolt Action and they loved it. It was and is a very modern game store yet they were like if people show up and play we will support it and it grew .
Bought my first Hinchliffe (PN14!) in 1972, bought my most recent figures (Perry BH80) last month... Onward and upward!
I wasn't even born for another two years!
It can't fizzle out just now... I've got the average wargamers hord to finish yet! I've not enough lifespan to finish it all but that's just par for the course. I agree with your conclusions. It was ever thus...passing the half painted baton from old git to old git. I have not yet progressed from blog to TH-cam channel but give me time.... I'm only 60
Excellent video. I agree with everything you said.
Bolt Action was an easy step in for me, now I am looking at other rule sets.
A good movie, or mini-series can spark interest - one hobby shop owner I knew said he never said so many sets of US Paratroops after 'Band of Brothers' screened.
I intend investing in a life support nutrient vat so I can keep building armies and wargaming for another 300 years
At my club (Hackney Area Tabletop Enthusiasts) Bolt Action has been a gateway for a decent number of players to move into historical gaming and we are constantly playing new periods and different scales. Most of us are the people described in your video, late 30's- 40s men, played GW games since we were kids but wanted something a bit different. Bolt action acted as that jumping in point as its easy to understand and cheap (for a war game).
What I would say might be changing is the type of historical war gaming going on as I don't see myself or any of my club mates going down the road of spending £1000's and 1000's of hours painting a massive 1/72 or 28mm scale Napoleonic army or any single army really that is a multi year investment in time as I know gamers of a older generation did.
I love the club's acronym! I agree, the older style of bigger armies may be the biggest change in the field, but there still are those few that create the big armies (myself included). But as an entry things like Bolt Action are great for getting the hook into new players.
Just go 6, 10 or 15mm and it's much cheaper and easier to do!
@@iainfuller5083 having just made the jump to 6mm i think its the future of my gaming.
I'd like to thank my bus driver in 1985 for giving me the fold out Waterloo campaign. Changed my life.
Didn't realize you were a local! And I agree with a great deal of what you are saying, Games Workshop style and historical gaming BOTH have their parts to play and should not be exclusive of each other, I see it as odd as the rivalry between Sci-Fi series!
Small world ay?
@@StormofSteelWargaming Rotherham here and I play both types of game, which is why I hate it when historical gamers look down at GW gamers and vice versa.
@@ianchappell3062 good man! Rotherham here as well. I only play a couple of scifi games, Judge Dredd, Star Wars and stuff like Arkham Horror. I'm not a fan of GW, but if that's your bag, good for you.
@@StormofSteelWargaming Exatecly, you might not liek it but I assume you wouldn't mind playing a game or two. I have just started a 6mm Napoelonics collection, but, have WWII in 20mm and AVBCW along side some fantasy and Sail and Steam
From everything I've heard, it sounds like the main reason people think historical wargaming is dying is because most of the players are middle-aged and older, and there are very few new, young players. Trouble is, I've also heard a lot of people say that they only got into historical wargaming as they got older and became less interested in bombastic space-warriors and more interested in nuanced history and tactics. So to me, it sounds less like the hobby is dying, and more like the hobby appeals to an older audience. You don't see new young folks because most of the new folks are middle aged.
It’s definitely not ‘dying out’ in my opinion. I watched the original video and if people have been saying it’s going to die out since the 1980s and it hasn’t yet then why will it anytime soon? These hobbies will always remain. They’re passed down from generation to generation and people get to a certain age and actively seek these kinds of hobbies out... Have model train sets died out? How long have they been around? Airfix? It’s certainly changing and evolving with things like Kickstarter but I wouldn’t say it’s dying out by any means.
I agree completely, at worst I see that it remains constant, but not dying out. As you say, the amount of stuff out there gives us huge choice now. We've never had it so good.
Agreed. I have 3 sons, and guess what? They're all wargamers.
The Little Wars TV video was confusing. It starts out with talking about US historical miniatures gaming, which has been slowly dying out. Sam Mustafa's observations in the beginning of the video pertain only to the US. Here in the US, historical gaming is sometimes compared to gun sales: number of gun owners remains about steady over last two decades or so, but the number of guns sold is way up. How many US historical gamers have loads of miniatures and keep adding to their collection of mostly incomplete gaming projects? Historical gaming in Europe and the UK appears to be robust. These days, nearly all historical miniatures games come from Europe, or the companies originated there.
Yep, I totally agree with the bulk of you - the old fellas in the 80s are now replaced by 'new' old fellas who were young then and so it continues. One question though; the 'grey brigade' who are just getting into historicals - is it because they consider that their memories from being young are now found in the history books, making them part of history itself, hence the greater interest in past eras? One problem which has always been and getting worse is the fact that there are almost as many rulesets as gamers. Find your local group and see what they are playing, and maybe try to get them to try the period you are in to. As has been pointed out, there is a LOT more choice in figures (& scales) than when I first started in the 70s. Long live the hobby.
I could write War and Peace on this but I'll refrain. Suffice to say I hope that dying implies decline and anyone who feels historical wargaming is waning compared to a conceived prior golden age - when was that? I've never had greater access to figures and ranges of figures ever- and I've been wallowing in this madness for over 40 years. Comparative growth might be behind sci-fi or fantasy (I call it playing with dolls) but I don't recall a better time.
I agree, we've never had it so good as we have now. Literally spoilt for choice with figures, rules, terrain etc.
Totally agree. 40 years ago we had nowhere near the choice we have now.
If you call sci-fi and fantasy “playing with dolls”, what do you consider historicals? Whether we like it or not we are all playing with toys - it doesn’t matter what’s getting pushed around the table. Embrace your inner child. . .
BTW - my toys can beat up your toys!!😀😂
No - It's evolving. So much more in figures & scenery too is available these days. Yes add Si-Fi & futuristic (and alternative), games also. Wargaming is growing / expanding in general (look at 'Salute' in London when the Excel centre is available - South London Wargamers run it, several thousand usually attend the one day event - get ready for the next one. Since H.G.Wells wrote his 'Little Wars' book (still available), there have been several more 'historical' wars since to add to the list - If you're interested in tactics and nobody actually getting injured - there's something out there for you....
I agree. A humongous no from me. Seems to be growing.
Yeah, definitely, at worst it is staying the same. Every show me and my mates go to are packed with people.
I completely agree that it's not at all in danger. If anything the historical game is stronger than it ever was. Of course fantasy and sci-fi have also grown, and maybe more so, but that doesnt mean to say that historical is dying. I've been gaming since 1985 and I believe there are so many more historical games and figures and companies producing such than ever before.
im 21 but it realy took awhile for me to get the right amount of intreast in history. i know that some people start getting realy intrested when they are 30-40. that is also another part people might forget
Yeah, I mentioned that a lot of people get ore interested in history as they age. But some of us, like yourself and me are interested from a young age.
Throwing in my 2 US cents. I don't think the hobby is dying...currently. 30+ years ago I would go into the hobby shop (there was 1 in Miami at the time) and see model kits of military vehicles, Dungeons & Dragons, some hex and chit wargames, and maybe some miniature figures (along with RC cars and planes). I was drawn into model kits because I had that 1 odd older cousin who was also into that. And in time I moved into sci-fi modeling kits and one came across Rogue Trader in the late 80s. That's how I got into the hobby. But, it was a much different time and on this side of the Atlantic it's a much different environment. Miniature games and dioramas seem to be a much more accepted pursuit over there than it was here. But again, that was then.
Taking a look at a 12 year old now and seeing if they would be interested in wargaming at all much less historical is questionable. That child has had video games all their lives and has a portable gaming device in their phone. Tying into that is that, honestly, the US has had a serious shift towards anything resembling intellectualism. Knowing things, reading, voluntarily learning are all frowned upon if not actively discouraged. I'm not going to get into our current politics but when even video games did away with printed instruction manuals and guides because gamers could no longer be bothered to read them then what motivates someone to read a 100+ wargame over just playing a video game. If they have an interest in Roman history it's much simpler to just load up Total War than read a manual, purchase and assemble figures, assemble some terrain/set aside a playing area, paint said figures, and get someone to dedicate a few hours of time to play a single scenario.
And I'm not just saying it's easier to play a video game than a miniature wargame (you can't argue that it's not) but you're also competing as well with regular boardgaming. Boardgames have blown up in recent years and there are many more players now than ever. But even getting them to come over from boardgaming to wargaming is often like pulling teeth. Firstly, many boardgamers don't even read the enclosed rules and learn to play from online videos. And, it's notoriously hard to get most of them to play any longer duration, more complex games (though many love their exceedingly complex Eurogames). Many don't seem to want to get into anything more complex than Memoir '44.
And the last barrier is the modeling aspect of the hobby. I came from a background of building model kits so I had no issues transitioning to building and painting but getting a younger generation to clip parts of sprues, scrape mold lines, glue together figures, prime them, paint them, then base them is a very serious set of hurdles.
So the problems I see for the future of the hobby (say in 30 years or so) is getting kids today to go down the path where reading large tomes before playing a game is normal, along with putting enough effort into assembling miniatures (I'm not even concerned with painting or terrain), and dedicating the batch of time needed to play a game somehow beats out turning on a machine and playing a video game after a few minutes. The social factor is removed thanks to online gaming. And, honestly, I'm not even considering the cost of wargaming to be a barrier when the next wave of consoles will go for $500 with games at $70 a pop, before addons and other monetizations. I'm hoping that the anti-intellectual atmosphere in the US changes in the near future but if not that also remains another barrier. So what factor does a miniature wargame offer that a video game can't?
Sorry if this is long and rambling but I see all of these factors as strongly diminishing the wargame community (much less historical wargaming) in the near future. And I'm not alone as even our SE branch of the Historical Miniatures Gaming Society in Florida had started (pre-2020) including teen tournaments to our two big conventions in Florida. As has been said, I think historical wargaming in the UK and Europe will be able to renew and sustain their communities over time but I see it having a much harder time in the US as the decades pass.
Agree, our hobby has to do some shifting to pre painting minis and some simpler, faster rules and flexible terrain in order to bring in the younger crowd. It’s honestly been the same for me, I get tired of the hours and hours just to play 1 game
I have heard this old chestnut almost as long as I have been buying miniatures and looking to play with what ever rules I could find. Early in my life I was buying Aixfix soldiers and using rules found at a local hobby shop. Was I a historical wargamer? Latter I got into D and D, RPGs, and boxed games, some historical others not so much. Was I a historical wargamer then? Later I did more board games, magazine games mostly historical. I did American Civil War and World War II. I even did the whole of Tarawa on the table. Today I have ships, fantasy dogs and 1940 World War II troops on the painting bench. I still play board games and RPGs so what does that make me?
The first question for me is, what is a historical wargamer? Does that mean Bolt Action for some and Chain of Command for others. How historical is it? Second are we talking the hobby world wide? The naysayers were mostly in the US with complaints about major HMGS show and the lack of US manufacturers. For me I do not care where I get my rules and miniatures. It can be a store, online, at a show, or trading with another gamer. Do I want to buy American, sure but it is not the reason I do it. If you want to see more US produced rules, feel free to write them. I attend smaller local shows, buy from the vendors and have fun. I attended 1 major show last year and the games were fun but I bought things that were already on the list to get online. Not a big win there for the vendors. It was a large show in a major metropolitan area and no one out side of the hobby knew it was there. Lastly we need to make this easier to get involved. You want to play ACW, ok lets start with a skirmish game and unpainted figures. With simple rules mechanics and a couple of boxes of figures you can play same day. You want over the top terrain and painted figures that takes longer.
My brother never would play historical miniatures because GW told him all he needed to know game wise. He did not care about the Battle of Fredericksburg or Battle of the Bulge. Ok, he saw the movie. He felt historical wargames had to much baggage and that is true some some. He told me he want to play, not read a history book.
So let’s define the question better, look fo better ways to get new gamers in the hobby and lets just have fun, oh and my thoughts, yes I am a historic wargamer and game. And I do not think the hobby is dying out.
My experience in the US historicals are dying out. In my area over the last couple decades 40k has taken over table top gaming. Historical gamers have moved to loose clubs that meet maybe two to four times a year. The problem is there is little interest in historical gaming so the local stores can't afford to stock the products. If there are no products to buy at stores interest goes down more. Also some stores are unfriendly to historical games. One local store banned US civil war games because of the southern flag and WW2 games can't have any german symbols on models.
Certainly not true of my part of the U.S., I mean yes fantasy and sci fi is big and what stores are here don't carry much historical (with the exception of a new one in Richmond) but even with our smaller population we have two historic gaming clubs, mine meets weekly and the other meets twice a week, We also support a number of little conventions in the area, or do in a normal none covid year.
@@CryHavocWarGaming The stores along the gulf coast are catering to the MTG and rpg crowd Some stores have a small amount of D&D figures, a few 40k kits, and a GW paint rack. For historicals maybe a bolt action kit someone special ordered and didn't buy. For a proper miniature wargame store you'd have to go to the GW store in new orleans. For historical gaming there is a club that does a FOG ancients tournament maybe twice a year and there are 4+ cons (none are specifically for miniatures).
I started watching that Little Wars video yesterday but I stoped after first few minutes and I'm not sure if I want to continue...
It struck me as very US centring - they gave me an impression that they are living in some kind of bubble in the US and don't know and don't care what is going around the world.
You should continue watching it, they also talk to a lot of UK wargamers and their answers are very different.
Second half is all UK wargamers.
Will watch it to the end then ;)
I honestly can't stand that channel. They all strike me as arrogant know-it-alls. I unsubscribed a long time ago.
First of all, I will state that I love the Little Wars channel. How anyone interprets what they do as anything but good for the hobby is beyond me, but we are all entitled to an opinion. I also don't see it as clickbait. Having spoken to Greg on a couple of occasions, he has a genuine interest in this topic and a desire for the hobby to grow and be accessible to all. To say it is a US centric view is, to be fair, stating the obvious. Little Wars is US based, but they have canvassed opinion from the UK too and one of the interesting points is that the UK does seem to be in a good place. I have never attended a US convention so can only go from what I hear. Their events still seem well attended although what the demographic is I couldn't say. When Sam mentions that there are few content producers in the US, I'm not certain he says there are none...just not many. Greg himself has written two excellent ruleset. The Disposable Heroes rules were written by members of Greg's club and they were pretty successful. So there is good content and products coming out of the US. Pro rata, maybe far less than the UK, but it's still there.
My own club is a good example of how younger members into 40k can become involved in historical gaming. For me the issue is for the older generation to make the hobby as inviting and as inclusive as we can. Don't turn our backs on younger gamers who show an interest in the hobby. Actively encourage them to roll dice with you, explain the history of the game you're playing. Generate the excitement that is historical gaming and light that spark that will make them come back for more.
I come from the generation of men who were given boxes of toy soldiers to play with and made guns from sticks to play war with in the local park. I'm not sure this happens anymore...boxes of toy soldiers are replaced by computer games. But the likes of Total War and Call of Duty are to me those boxes of toy soldiers that fire the imagination, and might lead to an interest in our hobby. With GW on most high streets, the concept of buying, building, painting and playing with toy soldiers isn't a strange one to many youngsters. Exposure to the wider hobby beyond GW, may be. Without a local club that plays historicals, a youngster might never have the exposure. We have relatively few independent game stores where that youngster can see Bolt Action or Flames of War being played. How we capture those people and show them historical gaming is the question.
Gaming has never been in such a strong place. It's becoming increasingly socially acceptable. The Perry twins were in the Economist for goodness sake! There has never been more choice. You can buy historical miniatures for the same price I was paying 30 years ago due to how cheap plastics are.
To be negative about why this question has been asked is in my humble opinion poor form. It has generated a lot of debate. It has, as Alex says, started a conversation. Agree, disagree, or sit on the fence are all valid responses. But to question the motives of why the question was asked? I don't get it.
I'll end this longer than intended comment by saying....lets all play nice. Listen to one another. Respect all opinion even if you don't agree with it. Join the debate. This is the greatest hobby in the world and long may that continue.
I.) I find that people who got into gaming via fantasy or sci fi are extremely blinkered with respect to historicals. They don't know what they don't know, and that the realities of historical conflict were much more bizzarre and incredible that imaginary tropes. They think the fictional settings are richer, when in fact the opposite is true, so these gamers are usually lost to us unless we can make the sale and remedy their lack of information. II.) Political scolds make some periods or armies less popular, and younger people seem to be much more sensitive to social pressure so skip historicals entirely to avoid censure; as a result, more of these games are played privately or in smaller circles and so appear to be in decline when in fact the venue has shifted, and the numbers remain stable. III.) Historicals are more easily played solo. Established doctrine or known, scripted battle plans make it easier to replay given actions to play 'what ifs'. Solo gamers of course drop of the radar almost entirely. IV.) A clear exception to the above is in the arena of Ancients gaming. A lot of young people get pulled in when they see warbands, legions, phalanxes, elephants etc. etc. in any scale. If the rules are not too dense it is an easy sell to make, and an easy transition from fantasy which is mostly derivative from ancients. Ancients minis are exciting. Korean War, not so much for most hobbyists. V.) Relative to the last point, I think that contemporary, future and near future conflict wargaming with the right miniatures and rules could pull people in from scifi. We are on the cusp of it after all, with smart munitions, AI directed AFVs and robot soldiers, etc. VI.) Despite all of the above, I find myself more and more like the closed off grognards of my youth who played Napoleonics, and only Napoleonics, and only with their tight circle of friends. The new guy in their group joined ten years ago or more. They did not want me or my friends and made that clear. But I think gaming is expanding, on balance, including historicals but not at the rate of fantasy and scifi. VII.) I have used Roman numerals in this post to underscore my personal antiquity, dignity and gravity. Now, punks, get off my lawn!
I think Historical wargaming will grow, especially if we're including stuff like Flames of War and Bolt Action. I used to play a bit of Flames of War and I still have some models lying around and the books. I don't think it'll die out, but I think there are a couple of factors to keep into account.
1. Older demographics do tend to go for it. Not particularly sure why, but if your young and you do it, you're probably a history buff in some respect. Uncle Atom does a good video about age and historical wargaming and I certainly agree that certain demographics and age groups go for it more. In my old club it was mostly military guys who played FOW because it was close to their job.
2. I think there are some things that are going to impede it's growth. GW has been making plays at expanding their demographic to be more than white guys with disposable income with their marketing and statements about inclusion. I think this is a great thing. But, it also shows that there is a strong following within the wargaming community in general who are either willingly or unwillingly ignorant to that or who are actively hostile to the hobby becoming more "mainstream" or diverse, they'd rather people who look like them play. I'm for sure not saying this is the community on its own, but I've met plenty of racists and bigots who play this. But that exists in nerd culture in general, it's a slow and necessary change but it's changing nonetheless. I don't think many companies are willing or in fact able to do that yet; whether for historical reasons of local culture and custom (like England in the middle-ages). But others, like to pick on FOW are set in time periods that feature things like Nazis and Swastikas and imagery like that, like for example someone having a fully painted SS division with a DYI nazi flag hanging off of a tank can be unnerving for a lot of people. Or when FOW sold SS accessories, it's one thing to include the rules and models for a historical campaign, it's another thing to cash in on the imagery or dress up as German soldiers during battle demos. It can come off as tone-deaf and in poor taste for an army that killed millions of people and committed war crimes.
3. There aren't a lot of unifying factors and eras. WH40k and AoS/Fantasy are popular because they exist on a singular timeline, you can have Empire and Vampire Count armies battle and say it's set in the vampire wars or in the end times and the rules/models won't change. But, your Roman Legion can't play against my Boshin War Samurai rebels. The vastness of History and the plethora of companies out there setting bits and pieces does hold it back, the exception being the WWII/20th century scene where FOW and Bolt Action are doing well.
Basically, I think historical wargaming will grow or shrink a little bit over the years, it certainly has a leg up now because of internet exposure even though there aren't a lot of content creators or outlets that can really market the hobby the same way GW or D&D can market their own hobby. I think historical wargaming will be stagnant for awhile and feed off of interest people have in GW as they learn more about the hobby and go from there. FOW and BoltAction will serve as likely entry points.
Seem to remember back in the 80's when people had the same discussions.
Great contribution to the debate Alex
I think this is an incredibly difficult question to answer given the evidence is almost entirely anecdotal.
The great war game survey has made a start but as there wasn’t an equivalent survey in 1970 or 80 the comparative data doesn’t exist
With the advent of the net with TH-cam, Twitter etc a very small demographic can interact in a way that was never possible in the past.
For those of us who are playing be that greying , balding or otherwise it certainly is the golden age with excellent rule sets and every scale and period catered for
Regards
James
Thanks buddy, that is the issues that there is no comparable data, but attending the wargaming shows as I do, I don't see any drop off in attendance, maybe slightly through the bank crisis, but now things are as healthy as ever (Covid, not withstanding).
I think a big factor is the breaking down of the barriers that historical wargamers used to put between themselves and the rest of the tabletop gaming hobby. When I was young the idea of a game like X-Wing being given space at our local wargaming convention would have been laughable. Now I run an event there every year. The as long as the community continues to get less elitist (not complaining about the colour of buttons on the tunics of people's Flintloque Orcs just because they look like British Napoleonic troops and so on) there will be a draw for people on the Sci-Fi & Fantasy side to at least give it a go.
For me with historical wargaming love the pulp era early 20th century. Most stuff painted millatry types but like fact done warlord 1920s chinese and white russains don Cossacks It's colourful period and love that.
But also like fact that era is also supernatural occult with fact call of cthaual 1920/30/40s crime vilgalaties explores the options are endless and love that.
I also really like Pulp gaming set in the early 20th Century. I use Pulp Alley for that. Use it for other historical periods too, such as samurai. Like needing less figures and a fun system.
Wargaming doesn’t HAVE to be historical. I have been wargaming since I was 13 yo, and am now 66. I war game with WW2 models in Europe mostly, but have the models and wargame WWI airplanes/dogfights, Feudal Japan/Samurai, WW2 Naval ships. Get hobby in buying, building painting, making scenery, etc and just playing.
No one is claiming it does, but the question was specifically about historical wargaming.
I don't think its dying out, or in any way struggling, but I do agree with the comment that it is starting to get too fragmented. When I started (and I'm one of those grey beards now) you played Newbury Rules for Napoleonic and WRG for Ancients. Now there is so much choice that there are literally dozens of systems to choose from for each period and that presents its own problems. And some of the recent rulesets are very complex (in terms of the detail they encompass) which also adds another barrier to entry. I've been out of the hobby for a number of years and would love to get back into Napoleonics, but where to start?
Where to start in Napoleonics? I would recommend Blucher by Sam Mustafa, you can also buy sets of unit cards so you don't even have to spend time painting figures!
@@StormofSteelWargaming Thanks for that recommendation. I hadn't even heard of that rule set (which supports the argument that there's almost too much choice I guess) but its great to have a suggestion as to where to start from someone who knows his way around. Much appreciated.
@@alans3023 You're welcome. If you have a look on my AAR playlist on this channel you'll find a refight of Waterloo and Quatre-Bras using the Blucher rules. It may give you an idea of how the game works (although I make loads of mistakes...)
@@StormofSteelWargaming Much obliged.
I think historical wargaming is as alive as you make it personally. If you and your small circle do it and you have access to as much stuff as you want in whatever scale you want, then I would say it is pretty much alive and well. to a point, that’s all that matters. I know years ago historical boardgames were produced in their tens of thousands, these days not so much, but what happens now is that the good tittles get re-prints and overall there are more games and more diverse games being produced, so maybe that all balances out. It’s never really been a huge hobby, but the people who it does hold are generally very enthusiastic and passionate about what they do. that seems as true today as it was 40 years ago. My neighbours have two sons who have gone to Uni and both are doing history related studies.
People are always saying the hobby is dying- you see it many other hobbies and pastimes too, fishing and cricket to name two from my own experiences. They tend to self perpetuate though- probably never going a huge surge in popularity, there's so many alternatives these days. But dying? No.
Good points well made 👍
Thank you, I am glad you thought so!
Historical wargaming must mature within :) takes a couple decades to grow to completion, and by then chaps are middle aged'farts :D Is it dying ? No. It is maturing continually as wine. Every year new crops are taken, every year a new aged wine comes to completion.
I started at 12, I'm 38 now. I don't see it as dying out... but my perspective is that it is much more popular in the UK than in the US. A lot of the reason for this difference are based in larger US social issues. The quality of life for younger Americans is far below what it was for their parents at the same age; younger people have little money, less space, rarely own their own homes, much more debt, and must move often for jobs. The cost of living has skyrocketed in the US, and jobs that pay well demand lots more hours. People don't have the time to paint large miniature soldier armies; their small amounts of free time are devoted to limited in-person social outlets available (I'm talking pre-COVID here). At the same time, video games have addicted millions of younger Americans (literally addicted). So, there's a lot of pressure, not only on wargaming, but on all traditional hobbies and pass times. Very few Americans read books for pleasure any more, for instance. Basically, our society is going downhill, fast.
That said, I've created my own model soldier company, and I'm about to publish a pretty revolutionary set of wargame rules (where models are optional). So I am a believer...?
Having more money and time has always been the reserve of the older members of society, so I don't think that has changed much, but there are more distractions now, but that said when I started in the 80s there were other distractions as well.
Storm of Steel Wargaming I agree. But I’m suspicious of the reports that show a wealth gap in the generations. In my city, pre-COVID, there has been a huge increase in the number of game stores. Far more game-related businesses exist now and they are filled with Millennial aged gamers with enough disposable income to keep the stores in business. If a wealth gap exists, then it is likely due to fewer Millennials purchasing homes, getting married, and having children; not from a lack of disposable income or time. The trend about people reading fewer books started long before the Millennials showed up. The lack of interest in history has also been going on for a long time as well.
My opinions are very similar to your own, in fact, I say almost the same thing you do in my own video on the subject on my channel!
Cheers, I will check out your video!
Face it, tabletop gaming takes TIME and RESOURCES. Both these things aren't prevalent in a person's life until really post mid 30's. Add into the mix that stability in living circumstances is also required to a degree. Not until you're pushing 40 are these usually sorted out.
Thats pretty much what I said in the video...
Dont think gaming will die out, but saying that i am selling all my flames of war stuff, i got loads of it,but that is so i can get something else,flames of war has taken over my house over the years,no room left😆😆😆😆🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
So it's not dying out, just being replaced for something else?
@@StormofSteelWargaming for me yes, bùt i dont think it will die out,also the cost of metal these days dosn't help🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻
@@phillhollowell4122 which is probably why a lot of companies are moving to plastic and resin. Also 3D printing is having a massive impact across the hobby as well.
@@StormofSteelWargaming agŕeed, also the cost needs to stay low to attract younger players, look whats happened to games workshop ,its way overpriced and just about sales, but yeah the plastic we are seeing is very good, victrix,warlord,etc, the choice of 1/72 scale plastic and the superb detail is very good aswell👍👍👍
All you have to do is get Hasbro to re-release about 10 of Avalon Hills best games. Squad Leader, Panzer Leader, etc. Hasbro has NO IDEA how to do this. But they have the distribution channels to get these into stores like WalMart, bookstores, etc. You guys say 'wargaming' and you mean miniatures. Other sites say 'wargaming' and they mean video games. I say 'wargaming' and I think Avalon Hill type games.
Seems to me to be an American issue, don't see it in the UK
You need to get rid of the drawing of the ?????? which if just to the right of your head
Its a sketch of a wooden Viking carving in Iceland that a friend did for me. You've just got a dirty mind, which is not surprising with that surname...
@@StormofSteelWargaming I recently retired from teaching but did about 2 terms on line with zoom lessons - I was so paranoid about backgrounds that I ended up putting up a white sheet.
@@stephennutt4083 Just so you know, it's just a drawing of this: www.alamy.com/wooden-viking-statue-by-asgeir-julius-asgeirsson-on-the-stokksnes-peninsula-near-hfn-iceland-image356058781.html
Historical Wargaming DOES NOT EXIST in the Western US
I doubt that's true.
@@StormofSteelWargaming I'm in Northern Colorado, and the only minis they sell are WarHammer, Legion, and Marvel: Crisis Protocol
That's one place, not the entire western US.
@@StormofSteelWargaming I couldn't find any in AZ when I lived there (a year ago) either... This is purely annecdotal but there seems to be no way to find people who play games these days
I'd suggest joining a Facebook group and asking if there is anyone in the local area who plays. You won't be alone.
Absolutely dying out. The average age is in the 60s and new players are few and far between. You are seeing the dead cat bounce in that more is being spent in the hobby because all the old duffers' have more discretionary income because they are so old the house is paid for and the kids are gone. In 10 - 20 years when they are all in homes the hobby will be dead. Everyone under the age of 60 is playing on the computer or fantasy sci-fi. Even Historicon already has more and more sci-fi fantasy miniature games to try and stay viable.
Completely opposite to my reading of it. I went to a club last week and the average age was in the thirties. Try and be a bit more positive, perhaps?
@@StormofSteelWargaming
Where? In England? There Historical Miniatures seem to be thriving I will give you that. I remember when Historicon was nothing but historicals, not so anymore, and it wasn't that long ago.
@@thewarroom9028 yep, in Britain, I can't speak for America, but here there's absolutely no problems and if anything it's growing. Maybe if people in the States were more inclined to promote the hobby and make new events, rather than relying on others to continue, then youd see a change. We are all responsible.
Well, LWTV isn't doing anything to support the hobby. Their "club" doesn't permit new people; it's restricted to their own exclusive little group. If they opened up to the public, I think they'd see that wargaming is not dying.
TBF this wasn't a platform for you to attack another person's TH-cam channel, if you have issues with them take it up with them, not me.
Good point landsurfer
@@OlStinky1 They posed a question, opened it up to the public and got the answer that it wasn't dying. It would be worthwhile watching their video before commenting on it.
Their club does permit new people. They state many times that I'd you're in the area, get in touch and they'll welcome you for a game. Point me to where they say they don't accept new gamers? Like any club, they have a right to turn you away if you don't conform to club rules...their club house is privately owned. Also I'm not sure they hold themselves up as being any better than any other club. They made a decision to make a few videos for TH-cam which are enjoyed by thousands. Nothing more nothing less. Without content providers like them, and others, TH-cam would be a pretty dull place. Have you done anything to contribute? Let us know. I'm not saying you haven't...just that if you do, then you'll know how much time and effort it takes for no reward.