I’m 17 and I’ve only begun to get into Wargaming but it’s historical all the way for me. 1/72 Late Roman Ancients is my thing, and I’ve somehow managed to convince five of my friends to join me in a campaign that I’m organising. So I for one refuse to let historical wargaming go quietly into the night!
You can go back to the very roots of the game with ancient campaigns. Try the ideas of Tony Bath, who started the Society of Ancients. If you can get access to Amazon Kindle editions, its on there, very cheap, "Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming" Very old, but some good ideas.
Little Wars TV When I started out you were probably the first wargaming channel that I found which gave good advice, so thank you so much, you helped me a lot!
Good for you Curtis, keep the hobby going. Wargaming is one of the few areas in life that has not gone PC or attempts to rewrite History. Are you Gaming in metals or plastic? Hat Co. has a great diversity of figs in your area of interest in plastic HO. All the best ~RS
I'm 16 and have been into historical wargames since I was 10. I'm a huge history buff and love acting out battles in the miniature. However the hardest part is finding people to play
Yeah that is the tough part. I’m 27 my best advice is if you can’t find any friends to play or a local businesses with other players try to get a girlfriend and make her play haha. Good luck to you dude! Love to see ppl interested in history.
In the 1970s we were going to die because of D&D, in the 1980s we were going to die because of Warhammer, in the 1990s we were going to die because of Magic the Gathering. Wargaming will continue, but it will change.
Elliott James - You missed out computer gaming in the 1980s. It’s what stole the minds of both my brothers, and made me have to go out and search for a wargames club for opponents. Sadly, neither of them ever returned to figure gaming of any kind.
I think people that proclaim the doom of Wargaming fail to realise who created it, old, affluent prussian generals and nobles. These younger things, DnD, Warhammer, and Magic are more oriented towards wider and younger audiences. They might eat up a bit of Historical Wargaming's market share, but not kill it.
I’m 19 and have been interested in historical wargaming since I was probably 14. Currently i run a small group of 5-6 guys and girls my age and we play several eras! Napoleonic, War of the Roses and WWII. I wish more people my age played.
I started when I was about 14, with a home-made battleground, and I think matchbox tanks and artillery, and some home-cast lead soldiers, representing Germany v Russia at Stalingrad. That was thought-provoking.
I feel like a lot of these kinds of discussions don't touch on one of the key parts of the hobby - ongoing costs/practicalities. Historicals aren't cheap to start, often require quite a bit of prior knowledge or research, and have more subtle expenses such as likely travelling further for a game than you'd have to if you played something GW. One of those things on its own would make it a challenge to someone under the age of 25, never mind all of them at once.
If I buy a box of Warhammer 40k orks, I know I'll be able to find people to play against. But if I buy a box of 10mm Sengoku Jidai Takeda cavalry... will I ever get to use them? It's a lot harder, that's for sure. Getting into historical wargaming in your own is almost impossible - you need a club, and then you need to adjust your collection and army to what's already in that club. Playing your 10mm samurais against 28mm Wehrmacht isn't really an option.
@@frankverdino477 add glue, paint, basing material, storage, game accessories - that's assuming having people who will play your rules and also have 1/72 minis - and we still have to factor in research and other expenses.
@@frankverdino477 Truedat As well as being comparatively cheap, here in Australia 1/72 figures are also usually the only other wargaming models available in general toy and hobby shops (apart from space ork stuff) as they have long been a popular scale for historical modellers, meaning there is a vast range of figures and vehicles. The range of periods available has also expanded greatly over recent years. As a bonus, they are scale compatable with the broad hobby of HO railways, meaning the terrain options are huge. I got back into WWII wargaming after a hiatus (GW burnout) and have been able to affordably acquire rules (Chain of command) and figures enough for several basic factions (Germans, English and French) , meaning that I have been able to entry sponsor my brother and a couple of friends, who are now enthusiastic enough that they are beginning to collect their own stuff. All this for around the cost of one small 40k army.
I think Historicals are quite cheap to buy, especially when compared to Games Workshop. £35 for 10 Space Marine Primaris Intercessors, compared to £29.50 for 30 WWII Infantry from Warlord Games, or £20 for a Perry Miniatures box containing anywhere between 36 and 44 infantry.
I’m 19 and have been wargaming since I was 14 and have only ever played historical as I’m totally history crazed! Their are so many interesting aspects of history that I struggle to even imagine how people could find history boring.
Agreed, Daring Dare! There are so many fascinating stories and characters to explore. We just need to find ways to help more people realize how much fun it can be to explore those real-life events.
Little Wars TV perhaps we can attract people to historical wargaming by showing how smart and intellectual a person looks when quoting and debating history compared to fantasy and science fiction!
Same there are so many things in history but people say that it is boring simply because they think that history has a lot to read but they dont understand reading and putting it into practical is different. They just dont even want to hear or play.
@@daringdare5078 The world seems to be going away from reading. I for one love reading and have since I was a kid. That's is truly how I became interested in history.
"Blood & Plunder", "Oak & Iron" and "Blood and Valor" are produced by the american company Firelock Games and are quite popular historical wargames. Hence there are still american produced wargames.
Blood and Plunder is the ONLY wargame I play. It has a relatively young crowd and seems to be growing in popularity. I really feel like this video was poorly researched to have no reference to Firelock Games.
I would like to state, I am 25. I wrote and still developing my own wargame in WWII. I host 4 events a year at my local library. I have on average 15-20 players all my friends and friends of friends. I started this game when I was in High School at age 18. I have been tinkering with my ruleset for a long time now and finally have a friend who is a graphic designer. We will be printing it shortly. Have no fear it is growing.
If you're looking for that the Travel Battle from Perry miniatures is what you're looking for. It has a complete set of rules, all the figures you need (they are 6mm napoleonic-ish figures), a hard-plastic board with terrain features such as villages, forests and fields and some dice. The assembling process is very fast and easy (if you want you can paint the whole board and figures but that is not really necessary) and the rules are pretty much easy to learn. The game was officially made for travelling gamers who want to play something while they're not home or at their gaming club but it can work as a standalone wargame and can provide lots of fun, plus it's a great entry to the hobby. Here is the link if you want to check it out www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=3637
I have been playing since Don Featherstone and Charles Grant broke on the scene in the 1960's. I started the wargames club at my university. The students' union of the time were very suspicious that I was seeking to set up some right-wing militarist thing and had to be placated. They knew nothing of what a hobby wargame was. In those days it was Airfix figures, converted, where necessary, for most. Since then the hobby has just exploded in terms of what is out there - stuff we never dreamed of. Naval at all scales, fantasy wargaming with Warhammer etc. 15mm brought the price of figures down for a while, then they started to climb. But the latest versions of things like Black Powder and Bolt Action with low-density games and cheaper plastic figures have made it more affordable and practical again. You can play them on a table set up in the average living room quite easily. The other thing that happened was the growth of the Avalon Hill - style boardgame which had also started in the '60s. That is now a massive sector on its own. And the dreaded computer game, there is a huge cross-over potential from the wargames people find there into physical figures. There may be sections of the hobby that might seem "grey", as I am now, but I think that wargaming in general is alive and kicking.
A quick hurrah for Messrs Featherstone and Grant. Plus Tunstill, Scruby etc etc. I am in my 8th decade and still play solo games using the 'old' rules in deepest darkest rural Wales.
Started in the early 70s with Airfix plastics. Played last night teaching 2 younger players the ropes of "Clash of Spears" a new skirmish ancients game. It's a different hobby now and much more inclusive. Nearly everyone I know play many types of game and are happy to cross over from historical games to other formats.
I agree ...when I was getting properly started during the Featherstone Era the choice and quality of figures was simply not there, whereas now you can buy virtually anything you can think of and in a profusion of different scales. Meanwhile DBA, in my opinion the most important rules set ever (while by no means perfect) is in its third edition after 30 years and offers an easy and low-cost intro to all sorts of different periods and armies ...but for many younger people the flashy allure of super-expensive spacemen, wizards and whatnot is impossible to resist. The best of them will eventually become historical gamers.
I started in the 1960's with home brew rules, Airfix figures and Roco Minitanks (accurate scale be d*mned!). Back then our gaming was driven as much by the modeling as the playing, and we had all the time in the world (after school) to get it done. Much older, with many more years behind than ahead, I now chose games like Wings of Glory/Sails of Glory that have prepainted components instead of spending hours prepping playing pieces. I wonder if many potential, younger players feel the same?
Great video! While there is graying within the hobby, I also see many green shoots. My 13 YO loves gaming WWII with me, and he has become a real history buff. A few weeks ago, he had a friend over who saw some of our 15mm models, then the two of them proceeded to play a game of Flames of War! The more we can all encourage this, the more our hobby will thrive...
Everyone forgets us younger folk are poorer, we didn't grow up in the 50s where you got a c-suite job with a high school diploma and paid off your house on minimum wage in 10-20 years. We can barely afford food, let alone having to spend 20 dollars for one unit for a game that's likely diffficult to actually play in terms of players, distance, actually having the same minis, etc. it's more convenient to spend 400 dollars on a cheap pc or the a majour console that I will guaranteed get years usage out of, then spend the same price in minis, paints, bases, cases, transportation etc for a game I might get to play once a year. Star Wars legion is the only thing that comes close to a somewhat popular game at a budget it even then that's a hefty price tag for someone living paycheck to paycheck. I won't even get in to the ridiculousness that is prices for age of sigmar minis.
Wages cut cut in half in the 70's and never really recovered. My parents tried to tell me once that they only made 5 bucks an hour tipped minimum wage, which is worth 150% of the 11.10 regular minimum now. I think they could afford to make it a lot cheaper though if we got some good machinists and roboticists in on the manufacturing end. GW pays around 10k for an injection die, most of my friends in the industry they could do 2k easily.
I haven't bought a new Gw miniature in about 20 years. I exclusively buy used models or alternate companies, which tend to be just as expensive. I am a bit spoiled being near a major city of millions, so the stores which sell used Gw products have a great variety and have great prices. The idea that you need 100% GW models to play still holds firm with many, but the odds that you'll be playing in an official sponsored GW Tournament is very low and I'm pretty sure most stores have almost no policy on enforcing it for their local groups. The D&D miniature line has some great options for various units if you are a bit creative.
Chris Lundgren is wings of glory even in print anymore? The companies official site doesn't have them for sale, third party games sellers tend to have like 2 planes each, and amazon has variety but low stock. I looked into it after watching these guys play it only to find the publisher doesn't even sell them anymore and everywhere I looked was either low variety or low stock.
@@deogthepoeg7872 Yes it is still being made it is still available there is also dedicated Facebook groups for it as well. The Guild House in Bellflower has it in stock as well as the War House in Long Beach Ca. facebook.com/groups/FansOfWOG/ this group can help you
In my opinion, part of the issue has to do with a lack of introductory games. The only local convention I know of is Recruits (awesome people, I meet the organizer at a band event a few years back) and there aren't really any 'pick-up-and-play' historics that people run. I'm talking games like Axis and Allies that you can just sit down and play without really any prior knowledge of the conflict. If a manufacturer made an all-in-one box set for napoleonics or ACW of a similar style (with rules like Altar of Freedom, summarized in 2 pages), I'm sure it would help expand into younger demographics.
People dont start with miniatures, you start with low cost boardgames like Squad Leader, then move UP into miniatures. minis cost too much. But with inflation even the old AH Squad Leader, or better yet remember MBT? I bought it in the 90s for $20. Well its follow up versions are still sold by the original author, only now its $100.
Funny thing is, figures, rules and terrain, and info about how to acquire them, is in many ways more available now than ever before, mostly because of that whole internet thingy. As an example, there are countless tutorials on yewchoob about cheap ways to make your own terrain, as well as many 'battle reports' that allow you to observe different rule mechanics in action in order to help decide which best suits your tastes. In the end though, the fastest way to grow the hobby is to lead by example and actively participate in it.
@@corvusboreus2072 most people would rather just get something convenient like axis and allies or risk. Miniature war gaming you gotta find a book, learn all the rules, find miniatures that are pre painted, get the right terrain, it's all a pretty big hassle for most people that just wanna open a box and play on occasion.
@@rc59191 then the question becomes 'how do we make tabletop historical wargaming accessible for people who don' t want to bother collecting and painting figures and terrain, or even take the time to read rules? ' My only practical answer would be swallow the extra time, effort and money it takes to spoon feed them in the hope that a deeper genuine interest develops. This is precisely what I have done with my brother and a couple of old friends where I have created terrain (mostly scratch built) and assembled/based/painted figures enough for several forces (1/72 plastics) and bought a ruleset (chain of command) that I can walk them through. It has worked insofar as not only do I have people to play with/against who are gradually becoming intuitively familiar with the basic rules, but have started expressing serious interest in collecting their own forces. Mind you, these were all longtime personal friends with keen to moderate interest in military history, so the initial investment seemed worthwhile. As for the 'huddled masses yearning to be free', all I can offer by way of suggestion is, when covid permits, to take the trouble to set up visually appealing demonstration games at wider public events (comic conventions, open days etc) and answer all enquiries in a genuinely welcoming fashion.
I can imagine a firm producing a ‘battle in a box’. Prepainted and pre-based figures and AFVs, stylised terrain, and a playing mat. Rules and all dice and counters included. It would have to be no bigger than, say 12mm scale. But even if made and packaged in China it’s might be difficult to get the price down to an acceptable level. And a mass market probably wouldn’t tolerate anything as complex even as Bolt Action, which is a far from satisfactory rule set if you know anything about warfare.
i remember the old wargamers in the 90's saying the same thing. i think we are spoiled with the amount of talented sculptors, game designers, painters, clubs, high quality you tube channels, great wargame companies, personalities in the field. its getting time to play the flippin games amongst friends that is a problem today. also i personally find the cost of the hobby expensive now, not as much disposable income nowadays but i do have a fairly good collection from the past 40 years of gaming to keep me going. brilliant video, i would have really liked to see the rest of the interviews.
What a great topic. I must admit, being into this hobby on and off since the late 1970s, that we are in " a new golden age " with the hobby in general, historical, and fantasy/sci-fi
Great question and a great idea to ask representatives from the hobby what they think. Having wargamed as a lad, I have now returned to it and love it. Yes I am long in the tooth but most at our club are on the young side and so will be keeping the hobby going for ages.
Loved this video. Can't wait for the next video. This is a topic that definitely needs discussed and we do need to take some action to move the hobby forward. Thanks for tackling this.
David’s comments stand out to me. For as much as I love your content, military history in general, and the idea of historical wargaming, it’s not the easiest hobby to get into-and even with my strong proclivity for those things, the closest to historical miniatures wargaming that I’ve gotten was Axis & Allies miniatures back in the day and Wings of Glory more recently (thanks again). The pre-painted/assembled and self-contained rules of those games are big selling points for gamers that aren’t already plugged into a local network or club that can share experience and encouragement. I did get into Warhammer fantasy (pre Age of Sigmar) because it had a strong local infrastructure with local game stores having scheduled Warhammer days, etc. and that tends to be a huge advantage that the points-based games have. Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next video!
The Axis and Allies collectable miniatures games were great, if a bit pricy. I had a group where we would play team games , usually two per side controlling anywhere from 100-200 points of units. Had a blast, easy to set up ,play and felt " accurate" enough ,despite it's abstractions. The " War at Sea game" was better for teams though. Gonna have to dig that stuff out again and try to convince my Gaslands fanatic brother-in-law to play it!
Welcome Back! So glad you are hitting the ground running! Trying to bring new, i.e. younger players in to historicals is really no harder than getting them into any other genre. When I had my game store, I had to point out to many a parent that balked at the entry price, that this was NOT a game, this was a hobby, and one that would possibly last a life time. I also have found that games like 'What a Tanker', really brings the younger crowd out. I went from a quick demo at the LGS to playing with a core group of kids, (to me!) every Thursday night. Sometimes dads, moms, and older siblings stop by to see what the fuss is about. So historicals declining in popularity? No, but as others pointed out, it isn't many new players first pick.
I'm 29 and just getting started with historicals, specifically around the Roman conquest of Britain. Stopped playing Warhammer around 8 years ago, spending more time playing PC games like Total War, company of heroes etc. These led me to read lots more history books, which have in turn got me itching to paint and play on the tabletop again. Regarding the cost of historicals - as someone who has dabbled with the idea of playing GW games again over the last couple of years, they actually seem extremely affordable in comparison! In my case, for example, I picked up the Infamy, Infamy rules from TooFatLardies, a Roman force (about 80 models) and a Celtic force (150 models), plus a load of trees, mdf movement trays and an mdf Celtic building for under £200. The models are from Victrix, and absolutely beautiful. Another bonus is that when they can be used for a wide range of rulesets, should I get tired of this one.
Skirmish is in ascendency. People want to get into playing fast. So businesses selling historical miniatures for games that require huge figure counts will of course say the industry is dying. GW sees this; Kill Team, Warcry etc are low figure count, fast skirmish games that "lead in" to the bigger games. Some people introduced into gaming via this route expand beyond it, into other genres including historical.
I have been playing for decades and both of my sons also play. I see the problem is with wargamers. We need to mentor and be more friendly especially at conventions. Just my 2 cents. Love the channel
I'm 24 and I got my start in wargaming with Warhammer 40k. I am, however, looking into Flames of War and Team Yankee and own most of Warlord Game's historical rulebooks, including Black Powder, SPQR, and Pike and Shotte. I actually found this channel yesterday and it is encouraging me to explore historical wargaming more.
I play rank and file fantasy games, the 9th age primarily, and we run into a similar problem. Getting new players interested in war gaming, one way we have been able to gain new players is by play at stores not our basements, pre-pandemic at least. I also have been interested in history from a very young age, primarily the French and Indian war and American revolution, due to growing up in Western Pennsylvania and going to reenactments. I have not gotten in to historical war gaming mostly due to the lack of a local group/scene.
As a former Fantasy player myself, the problem with T9A is similar to the issue with Historicals - you just don't have a market there. You're trying to "sell" a game specifically to the folks who played WHFB, but who *aren't* just playing WHFB with their friends in the basement. There are whole communities playing 'OldHammer' and 'MiddleHammer' and have the opinion that if something's not broke, don't fix it. People who want a tournament scene, conventions, etc are all playing 'Kings of War' or begrudgingly switched to 'Age of Sigmar'. Even harder, because it's not like T9A has established an ecosystem. New players who want to play High Elves have to scrounge to find models and won't have the nice GW plastics that probably got them into the army. Even returning players are faced with trying to collect new armies at eye-watering FleaBay prices. On a more personal note - I think that T9A was actually the nail in the coffin for the 8e WHFB community. In every other scenario that a game went belly-up, people kept playing it and kept it alive as it had been. 'Blood Bowl' for example, and the old editions of WHFB. When 8th bottled, the tournaments suddenly dried up. A bunch of people went to KoW, a few went to T9A, and plenty just petered-out with no big events to go to. If the ETC guys, Masters, and the T9A had put their energy into maintaining a thriving 8th edition community instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the people who hit the Masters circuit in 2014 would have come back out in 2015 and kept coming.
@@SlyBlu7For me it was being able someone to play with, my group currently has 8 locally that play 9th age, so I play 9th age. We also have an active tournament scene that typically runs 4 to 6 tournaments a year with between 30 to 50 players at each. I know not everyone likes to go to tournaments, but to keep an active and growing community you need both the friendly games and the competitive games. If my group would have stuck with 8th for longer I would have kept playing 8th, but one of the problems with playing old hammer is nothing changes and the game begins to get boring. At least with a living game like 9th age somethings change to keep it feeling fresh.
My problem with 9th Age is that it's based on 8th edition - the version that broke Fantasy with its terrible magic system, hordes, buses, simplified movement and laser guided war machines. It's much better to play 6th edition and just house rule it so that units fight in 2 ranks and make 5 models the normal unit frontage instead of 4 (like in 7th).
Great piece to watch guys. I have mentioned this before. I worked in the wargames industry for nearly 40 years, i am now retired. The industry has been dying for some time now. I know this as i lived it. It was for me at its most vibrant during the 1980's up to the end of the 1990's since then it has slowly died. You would only have to look at the traders we have lost, the shops that have closed down, and the convention circuit, a mere shadow of what it used to be. This of course is in the UK, and a funny thing to see your talking head mentioning the USA as the heart of wargaming, in the UK we consider the UK as the heart of wargaming, each to their own no doubt.
I wanted to get into the Historical wargaming. Bought lots of 1/72 scale Napoleonic and Roman era models because they were cheap and I could quickly build an army of them. Why did I stop? 1) there were only 5 guys in my country that played Napoleonic era and insanely they went with 28mm scale. So in order to play with them I'd have to basically spend more to get the army I wanted in the right scale (if its not any of the major nations of the Napoleonic Wars your essentially screwed for trying to keep costs down) 2) none of my friend wanted anything to do with historical wargaming. Its has a very high bar in both cost and research to get into. Added to this, whats exciting about fighting line battles when you could be playing a sci-fi game with super powerful weapons with weird rules, or fantasy games where magic can cause untold devastation. There is little scope for imagination with historical wargames. Hell, the historical purists in the hobby really dislike the idea of just playing pick up games or points costs. To them, you sit and do research, paint your models as historically as you can research and then research and replay famous battles. Thats far too much work to ask new people to get on board with, yet most of the old guard in the community do not accept much else, and most rule sets dont give you the option for easy pick up games as they dont come with points costs or special rules for the different nations. Right now, the only thing i can do with my historical miniatures is to use them in games of Warhammer 40k or other such games because im more likely to be able to arrange a game of that than anything historical. The hobby as a whole isn't dying, but its not growing as well as it should. A trickle is not sustainable.
OK a couple of ideas, you can use counters for units, no figures needed. Most rules have points values for shopping list armies because (in the UK) thats what most games are, a 2 hour game at the local club to an agreed points value. As for not having super weapons, thats the point, you are suppose to out think your opponent, not beat them with super weapons. Use the terrain to your advantage, gain the tactical edge (usually by beating your opponent a bit at a time) and if a game is historical, you have the lessons of history to tell you how to do it.
@@zedeyejoe Just countering the points 1) the whole point of a miniatures bases table top game is to play with the miniatures. Using counters just defeats the purpose and if your in a game store/club playing the game your not going to gain anyone looking over to admire the quality of the minitures...because there aren't any to look at. I've gotten into games by just looking at the miniatures on offer, watching the game being played amd by the next week I have something I can use to play a small first game. Using counters just doesn't do that. 2) most rules I've seen and been recommended do not come with points costs. Black Powder has some supplements with points values, but the games designer has stated many times he doesnt like the idea, and therefore the points used just arent balanced. 3) my point about super weapons was that the lack of them doesn't make for an exciting setting. Most people aren't at all bothered about history, and especially military history and so sci-fi and fantasy settings attract them more. Its hard to get people excited to play a historical based game when there is nothing to really draw them in except brightly coloured uniforms. How you are supposed to play the games using historical formations and stratagems when there are other games that allow them to "slaughter xeno scum" with rocket propelled machine guns, or bolts of eldritch lightning. There really isn't any competition when put into those terms.
My son is seven and he loves historical boardgames. We've recently picked up some Bolt Action figures but haven't gotten them to the table yet due to his fixation on Space Hulk and Imperial Assault.
Space Hulk is a great game, bought it again on re release some years ago. Game mechanics are similar to Bolt Action so you are on a winner there. Main thing is to let them roll dice and have fun, the rest will follow IMHO..
I am 40 and I have "recruited" four of my friends, all about the same age as me, for historical wargaming. At least here in Europe, there is a lot of shops and games. Not a lot of wargaming clubs in Portuga, but I know of some groups of players. You have a great channel, keep up the good work.
@@markedwards2607 even though I do not see myself as older, I would say that most people start at about thirty years old. In my experience, most start with fantasy wargaming, such as 40k, or with some RPG or other, and then progressively drift towards historical wargaming. I started with historical modeling, and from there went directly towards historical wargaming, but I am the only one I know, personally, that did that.
@@vhcsPT I’m almost 40k yet have no inclination towards history based games despite history being my favourite subject. For me history is almost sacred (I’m an atheist) and isn’t a game. Although I have built several castles for my fantasy games. I suppose it’s that history doesn’t offer the escape from reality that sci fi & fantasy games do. But I wish you and all who share your hobby the best as without historic war games the games I play would never have been made.
@@markedwards2607 thank you, sincerely. I am also an atheist but for me history is the path not taken. I love the infinite what ifs. I have a warhammer 40k army, but no other 40k players near me. I get some fantasy games a year, but my group is formed by history lovers, and we have games on a lot a periods.
David E is spot on! Hoping more companies understand this - right or wrong people need a 'system' to buy into. It is very hard to find historical groups if there is no center of gravity (i.e. a known brand/set of rules).
I’m one of the only 16 yo I’ve ever known who plays historicals. I feel like the older generations are definitely the people really keeping the historical side of the miniature hobby alive.
Great question! I think it depends on when you started. I started historical gaming in 1977 at age 10. For the first 4-5 years, I was the only player under ~25 at my local gaming club. Most of the guys were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s. Ten years later, the situation had completely changed. I was part of a large group of historical gamers, most in their late teens and early 20s. I think the reason was that in the 1980s historical wargaming became more affordable and there was a much greater diversity of rules, figures, scales, and periods. As a kid, I didn't have the resources to build a Napoleonics army with 28mm Hincliffe figures. By the time I went to university in the mid-80s, there were lots of affordable options. Now when I go to my friendly local game store I see a lot of young players. True, most are playing fantasy and sci-fi games, but some are playing WWII and modern games. I would prefer to see more historical games, but as long as the hobby is doing well, there's always the potential for new recruits...
Historical gaming is not dying. Historical gamers are... sorry for the cheap shot, I feel very old lately... I'm a keen historical gamer and after all these years I still love this hobby like the first day, possibly more. So all I can say is: get those dice rolling, because I can't see a future without gaming. Cheers from Italy!
Great return,guys ! Am a game designer and all of your videos are just so excellent ! Thanks for your engagement in our little universe and passion ! Greeting from france
Great stuff. I have been a recruiter for our hobby from day one. I tend to run more games than I get to play. I tend to find out what period a potential new player may like and I dive into it. This often brings people into the hobby if the initial investment is low, as I supply most of the figures. I can stoke the interest while not causing financial stress. Eventually they begin buying their own units/Armies, which adds to the size and number of player at the table. I'm lucky as most in my group follow suit and are ambassadors for the hobby.
Hithere. I am playing Bolt Action with a small group in norther Germany. We are all between 30 and 45. But I also play Warhammer 40k, most of the 40k players are slightly younger. But I also experienced that the younger ones start with 40k and/or Age of Sigmar and then later find their way to other tabletops. So naturally they are older when they start historical wargames, but this does not mean historical wargamming is dying.
I think there were some very keen observations in there about how historical wargaming products are packaged and sold vs other wargames. Very interesting video.
Awesome video, really enjoy the discussion. I suspect wargaming is growing quickly, however historicals as a subset may be stagnant/slow growing. Not surprised manufacturing/publishing has shifted away from the US - I don't think the influence of GW in Nottingham can be understated ;) keep it up!
I think David Ensteness hit the nail on the head for why most people don't get into historical wargaming. Me and my fellow broke college student friends all play wh40k, and while I've been gently pushing to try out some historical scenarios, they haven't been receptive. Old, retired men have the time and capital to sink into a heavily research-based hobby. We don't. Games Workshop makes it easy, which is why they're making a money hand over fist while historical wargaming is circling the drain.
Yeah, my group is all 40k, Legion, and Frostgrave. We bust out Might of Arms on special occasions, but we have the fortune of access to an extensive 15mm collection from my mate's parents.
If you can afford GWs 40K models you can easily afford Warlord's Bolt Action for example. Those of us who played 40K v2 can see a lot of its mechanics in BA. I think tabletop games are strong outside the US but historical gaming seems to be very "old school" inside the US as a generalisation.
Has it ever occurred to you that part of your group's penury might be that you are gaming with one of the most expensive figure ranges and ruleset in the market? Take a moment to research the range and price of 1/72 historical figures, and do a bang for buck comparison with the GW range. Then consider the comparative costs of other rulesets, bearing in mind that most don't require the constant rule and codex updates that GW games demand. There is certainly validity to arguments for Warhammer etc in terms of their popular accessibility, but definitely not in terms of value for money. By the way, historical rulesets also tend to be more instructive to reality than fantasies constructed around orks in space. Something for a poor student to consider.
@@corvusboreus2072 1:72 figures aren't really an apples to apples comparison in terms of figures, since they are a lot smaller than 32mm and usually softer and simpler on the sculpts.
@@Hepabytes I realise that, but, in the end, they are all just toys on a table. If you'd prefer one largish shiny apple over a whole big basket of mixed fruit then that is your choice.
I totally agree with David. Games with unclear information makes it harder to get into. I've been out of 40k for years and now trying to get back into it, but there are now a ton of books and other garbage that I'm not sure I need or what to pick up. While that is healthy, other games are falling into that trap. there is nothing clear as to what you need.
The first thing you need for 40k now is a guarantee from whoever you're going to be playing that they won't be bringing a cheesed out list of min/maxed crap. GW chucked any idea of balance out of the window a few years back and while the GW community will preach about 40k being fun, the company fixing problems and listening to gamers, it's rarely true. My advice would be to get on Facebook and ask one of the groups to outline the best units in the army you're interested in, then just spam those units. Be prepared to need to buy the next uber broken army every year to keep up, otherwise it'll get depressing very quickly.
The biggest bugbear is painting and assembling the damned things. This is a process you have to go through, almost by default, since there's an aesthetic aspect that is strong in the hobby. I have purchased pre-painted miniatures in the past that look the part (Battlefield Evolution: Modern Combat), but you ultimately pay for the Chinese paint job.
Great vid LWTV. Also, Gerry from OTT! As a cultist (formerly known as a backstager) I can say he looks perfectly in place and completely out of place in the fancy room-setting.
Wargaming is something friends do together. It is hard for interested strangers to find each other, much less get together to game. And given the competitive nature of the hobby, there has to be a certain common understanding and norms established over time to be enjoyable. You had a previous video where you talked about your club and how you accept new members based on how compatible they with the current club members. Making new friends gets harder as you grow older, and I do think that you need to be friends to game enjoyable. All of which makes it hard for this relatively small hobby to grow beyond its established base.
I’m 16 and just recently started with collecting 28mm Napoleonics, I only paint them for collecting and display, because in my area and age group there aren’t many I could war game with. So in my case I completely leave out the rules and terrain etc. that you’d need for wargaming. A big issue is also the price of collecting, painting and basing these figures, so I am never able to buy the figures I want, because I don’t get much pocket money.
Appreciate the video, I know I am "Younger" (28) and have always enjoyed historicals. however as an up and coming 6mm 3d miniatures designer I was sad to see no mention or interview of how the hobby may evolve. That is to say 3d printing which will have an ever growing power in the wargaming and miniatures world. I assume youll cover it in your next video though :)
I’m 50! I used to play table top historicals in the late 90’s. In Montreal there used to be a great hobby association called Montreal Wargamers. Today I want to go back to play tabletop battles, only problem, cost of miniatures and find players to play and the time to play and paint.
Applaud you for looking at a gateway game - reminds me of my first napoleonic boardgame - For me it comes down to 1) accessibility of more clubs that advertise and are welcoming to new players, 2) not in public as much as we could be - particularly in supporting local game stores - so much is bought online because in store inventories are hard to maintain for all periods and manufacturers - if the shift to 3d printing isnt made - perhaps a catalog like walthers that local game stores can have with easy ordering plans 3) Atlas for model railroading used to produce a free booklet that showed you easy to complex layouts - with materials listed - easy to use 4) Understand we have "channels" from historical interest, painting, gaming and so on - a club generally merges those, for someone with no clubs there are different entries for each and 5) Scale creep - too many scales - period 2mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 25mm, 28mm, etc up to 54mm - including in ship and plane scales and we go even further - If I am a new gamer - with all the other questions - which way do I go - Final thought I got my start with airfix 1/72 and 1/32 with a couple of colors on them - then eventually moved on to buying some of the pre-painted mikes models and some second hand figures to play
I'm a graybeard but my 14 year old son is active in the hobby (and has been for several years). He started a club at his middle school and has introduced the hobby to 10-12 fellow students. That's how we grow the hobby. We find (or spawn) champions within the target demographic, encourage them, help them with material ( terrain is key) and what ever other support we can. Of those 10-12 , three of them now have their own miniature collections and regularly participate outside of school in gaming events locally and regionally.
I'm 30, Just started doing Napoleonics 2 years ago. I was hesitant at first because I bought mine from a local shop and the guys in there playing black powder were in there 50s or 60s. I didn't think I could fit it anywhere or find anyone my age. I'm still having a hard time in PA finding something. I think it all boils down to time. You see older people gaming because they're usually retired. Whereas me, I love to game and paint, but I also have a house, wife, job, and kids to take care of.
Warlord games is going strong in my region. They have some amazing introductory rulesets like bolt action or black powder. Easy to learn, fun to play plus a lot of support. I believe historical wargaming is in a good state right now as there are many young players coming to historical wargaming from games workshop rulesets.
I'm 46 and I will put it to you like this... WW1 and WW2 had such an impact on society giving most people that connection and influence with people involved in these events that also created the world we were all living in. As those now grow up without that generation like myself talking to grandparents and their direct experiences in the second world war directly influenced my love of history and how these events they were involved in came about. This love also led to exploring other times in history for gaming.. Remember the 1980s we were drowning in books of WW2, now people have moved on to other events..
Great video chaps and very thought provoking. From my own experience on the subject, I run a small channel that is primarily focused on historical gaming but is very much Bolt Action content heavy as this is currently my main and favourite gaming rule set. Over the last year or so, it has been really interesting to chat to people through comments or social media that have either switched or expanded into historical gaming from more fantasy/sci-fi centric systems and their reasons, views and thoughts for doing so. Overall I think that these days, people that entered the hobby purely on the fantasy/sci-fi angle seem to be a lot more willing to look at the options that historical gaming has. I remember during my formative hobby years in the early 90's, there seemed to be a reluctance to look outside of the more fantasy driven gaming systems.
Great video! I know that Bolt action is becoming very popular where I am (Singapore) as well as Flames of War. Ive bought the BA miniatures but havent painted them yet, so cant wait to get into that! After that, Ill give FoW a go!
I am an old guy but I would love to get involved with historical war gaming. I have no previous experience with it and have no idea how to do it and know of no groups close to me to get involved with. I enjoy following this channel which provides me with a gaming “fix.” Unfortunately, I am 71 and not who you are trying to get involved with the hobby!
I hear you Bob. Im an old guy and I am a game master looking for a new group or club myself. I run 28mm Vietnam War miniatures games / campaign and nobody to play with.
I would love to get into napoleonics. the problem is where the hell do i start? I've been playing miniatures games for close to 20 years now and if i cant figure out where to start how are newer people?
You are not alone, Michael. Not by a long shot. Given all the different rules, scales, and manufacturers, it can be pretty tough to figure out how to start. Especially if you don't have a local club. This is an issue we are going to address head-on next week.
Probably the best place to start Napoleonics right now is The Wargaming Company (site: thewargamingcompany.com/ ). The owner (David) is featured in this video and he does sell everything you need to get started.
Try the Facebook page the Napoleonic Wargamer, it's a good place to start should give you a lot of links. Just start with a question and you'll get plenty of people willing to give you advice.
Depends what sort of Napoleonic game you want to play. Warlord Games has a Napoleonic starter set with models and rules for a reasonable price. Osprey has a skirmish rulebook called Chosen Men if you'd rather play small skirmish games. Too Fat Ladies has a system which can be fun. Models can be from any company.
Try the small operations which require fewer troops ( and, therefore, less outlay ) - British naval landing parties with rocket/infantry support on Mediterranean/Caribbean islands: Perry do some handsome and authentic figures.
Not to blow sugar up the backsides of the crew at Little Wars, but you guys are exactly what the hobby needs. Engaging, funny and (dare I say it) relatively youthful. In Australia, the typical wargamer ( especially 'historical' ) would be a sullen doctor in his 60's who would probably recoil in pain from any curious youngster who wanted to learn the ropes.
As a greying historical miniatures gamer. My experience over the year includes going to Pacificon for the first time as a know nothing 14 year old in 1978. I had a blast. I was mainly there for TSR's first west coast DnD tournament my friend was DMing for it. While not playing DnD I would wander thru the historical miniature battle hall at the Dunfey Hotel in San Mateo. I found then as I do today that most of the grey beards were very welcoming of questions and would even ask if I wanted to learn to play. That long weekend I played Napoleanics, Franco/Prussian war. Zulu, Khartoum, Micro Armor, WWI planes. I was already into history of war and had spi and ah games I had bought with my own money. Thru the years I have played with all ages and made it a point to always welcome questions from young people and invite them to join. Because you should pay it forward. When Flames of War was moving from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition rules I volunteered to work as a free lance Editor/Proofreader and I am credited on the second edition rule book and many of the scenario books for that rule set. At that time I was playing Flames of War regularly at 2 different game stores. That is the crux of the matter. Exposure at a regular time at a place easy to find. Twice a week at two different game stores about 30 miles apart at the same time every week from open till closing time. We grew a handful of people playing to well over 50 regulars at both stores from all ages. The thing was we were inclusive, age, sex etc did not matter. We were helpful, showing people they could play with minimal investment, helping them learn the hobby and the art of painting miniatures and making cheap and nice terrain. So for 4 years I was helping to grow the hobby. But when I was to old and broken to continue regular play time the hobby pretty much started to die off. Why? Because nobody was being consistent. Sure they were still playing but at odd times and at home or away from the game stores. Dedication is hard to come by for people not getting paid to play. I have been physically unable to play tabletop miniatures because of a spinal injury, just cannot lean over a table anymore. The main problem is schools are not teaching history like it used to be taught. Wars are being taught as shameful no matter what side you were on. This is leading to the shaming of kids who are interested in history and war. But that is my opinion. I lost 5 of my 7 uncles in World War 2, My father served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. My family on one side were Wild Geese, kicked out of Ireland because they would not bend the knee to Protestant England and worked as Catholic Mercenaries for Spain and France in the 1600's. They came to America in 1638 and from that time onward have every generation been in the local, county, state, colonial or American armies since. Every single generation in America since the mid 1600's to this day. I served, my daughter served. Three of my siblings served. So generationally we come to a problem. Kids are now separated from War and are taught inappropriately about war in general at the schools here in America. The complete rewriting of history at all levels of schooling is disgraceful and for me has led to the loss of historical miniature tabletop gaming, plus the big elephant in the room PC gaming has really thrown miniatures for a loop. Cost alone has made it unbearable. Should I spend $1000 for an army or get a $60 pc game? Oh its on sale on steam for $20. Yeah I know where my money goes. So lots of reasons for the decline. Technology, social stressors, prohibitive costs and of course the time it takes to travel to, setup and then play is quite long. And finding a place to play is not easy either. Chris
Glad to see you guys are back. Interesting to see you guys are masking up to get rid of this pandemic. I do like wargaming via board games or minatures.
Historical war gaming has always been a middle aged guy hobby but don’t worry there are new middle aged guys coming along all the time. Lol. To be serious though If there were some hard stats that we could reference I doubt that we’d find that the numbers of historical miniature gamers in the world at any given time changes all that much. I think that the bearded fedora wearing guy you interviewed has it right. Great video as usual!
Totally disagree. I started in 6th or 7th grade with Panzer Blitz. My HS had a historical games club. What has happened is the hobby stopped supporting the younger players and other things took them away.
Unpopular opinion: wargaming is full of dorky and geeky people. The payoff for the high price point, massive time investment, delayed gratification, and massive effort to find a club with consistent players, just to hang out with dorky/geeky middle aged dudes is incredibly low. Its inherently unattractive for most people, children especially.
I am 28 and have been gaming since I was 12. My first entry into the hobby was warhammer 40k but since then I have mostly moved my interests into smaller companies sci fi lines for skirmish gaming. A small fast paced battle is what suits me most these days! I do also collect a lot of historical models, mainly ancient, some ACW, some boxer rebellion and ww1 and ww2. My main problem is finding people to play with, so I have sort of settled into a collecting and painting role. That said it would be great to get into club gaming again!
Here in Ireland the move from Historical to Fantasy changed everything. The main reason is the rules for Historical wargaming are more demanding than Fantasy if you just want to 'play'. Boxes with everything in them you need to get going, along with satisfying accessible for everyone rules would do wonders.
Great video! I have to agree that the wargaming market is continually growing and expanding. Our average wargame sells about 20,000 copies. Our popular series, like Conflict of Heroes sells on average between 30-40k per title in the first 2 years after release. The same for our Birth of America and Europe series like 878 Vikings. Military personnel, high school teachers, and home schools are also great new outlets. Our games are now also being printed in Chinese, Czech, French, German, Polish, Russian, and Spanish - so we are seeing growing demand in non-English markets as well. This was not always the case, especially in China. Unfortunately, we see no demand or growth in India, which surprises us. Granted, the old school game engine designs, with tons of reference charts, do not have the sales and are dying out. But the new game engine designs, which are becoming more and more sophisticated and streamlined, are on fire. The main issues we face at this time is shipping worldwide outside of the USA. CV19 has often closed borders and shipping rates have skyrocketed. Keep up the great work! Uwe Eickert - Academy Games
I have painted, built, converted, read and played war games and RPG for the last 40 years and have no intention of stopping. Keep up the good work as really enjoying the feed. Could you please tell me where I can get my hands on those Perspex octagons used in the Battle of Trafalgar game?
The time of the low cost resin printer is here, KS running for the market is picking up. Getting grand scale in 15mm,6mm is doable affordable and the guts who can put together the best systems are here. You guys do amazing work, in depth with relevant research. The next decade is going to explode with colour printing ,making it even more accessible. Is that good news ? Not sure. in building and painting we also spend the time to learn about the history, is that what will become lost?
I've played a little bit of every miniatures games, including Warhammer/40k, Warmachine, pre-painted Star Wars games, etc. Historicals were always intriguing but hard to find, and the hobby aspects are a lot less interesting - the idea of painting 200 olive drab dudes makes me go a little cross-eyed. What got me interested in taking up the historicals challenge was the opportunity to connect with my kids, who are suddenly homeschooling. It's an art project and a history lesson while still being fun. I'm just scratching the surface of what I can teach my kids through the hobby, but the homeschooling audience would be a good one to consider.
Like so many discussions, this video and the interviewees really focus on miniature war gaming as a business, not as a hobby. They judge it on sales, on who can make it a career. Stamp collecting is still a hobby, even though people don't make a living off the hobby. The hobby will remain, but as a business? Probably not forever.
One of the opening shots shows the 2020 Cold Wars dealers hall. It looked pretty empty but to be fair Covid was just breaking out and Cold Wars attendance was down more than 50% from normal.
I enjoyed the video. I am now one of the old codgers playing historical wargames, though I did start when I was 17 (48 years ago). I don't see this part of the gaming hobby dying out as it seems the same to me over time just new generations replacing the old around the time they reach middle age. There are now the big companies with their gaming systems which match the fantasy/SciFi products out there that attract younger gamers. Over the years I have looked at the SciFi models and thought pretty shiny things but have never been tempted to divert from my historical collections. What struck me about the video was there appeared a different view either side of the pond with a more positive view on my side (Europe). My worry for the hobby is that the small and one man band producers are the ones that appear not to be being replaced by younger entrepreneurs and unless they are bought out by the "big" companies we lose their rules and models. In my opinion many of which are better than the products of the "big" companies.
Been gaming for over 30 years, one pattern I have seen, is that the majority of people who are new to the wargaming hobby start off with the Fantasy/Sci-Fi games, and as they get older develop a taste and interest in Historical wargaming. I have long suspected it is partly based in a burn out of the game design of Warhammer and the like. Too heavily focused on flashy special rules that require little tactical depth.
I went to the old Genghis Cons in Denver with my dad when I was like 6 or so. I was allowed to roll all the dice as long as I behaved! Hopefully one day I'll get my kids in on historical miniatures!
For a hobby that's supposedly dying, it's moving a lot and making a great deal of noise, mostly very encouraging. I thought it was healthy before but this discussion shows it's even more lively than expected.
Well, I'm very interested in what you will show us, the wargamers next time! I like what Jay Arnold says here, although at least in our club (mostly board and card gamers) it is very difficult to convince people who play "normal" (euro style) boardgames to play a game along with us, the wargamers. As Jay says, there is more in wargaming then simply put your toys on the table and go for it.
I'm a 48 year old who has been intrigued by the idea of historical wargaming since my teenage years. But only entered the hobby a year ago, thanks to stumbling across Little Wars TV. Thanks guys! So why did it take so long? 1) Inaccessible: Had no idea where to start with rules, miniatures, etc. There needs to be some sort of 'entry drug' into historicals, like Warhammer 40K and similar games for sci fi/fantasy. Bolt Action, Flames of War and similar are close, but not quite. There is still a lot of 'what do I need to buy to play a game' questions involved. A solid big boxed set of everything, or even a direct list of what to buy to get started would help. It took me a long time after starting down the Little Wars TV rabbit hole until I figured out what to play and what I needed/where i could buy it. 2) No players: I play a lot of RPGs, and thankfully one of the other guys is interested in historical too. So solved that problem recently.
i've been watching this channel over the last week or so, and it's really caught my attention. Historicals were something i'd not paid much attention to (i primarly play 40k), but they look intriguing. One thing i've noticed, though, is the attention to historical detail present in a lot of these games. While this might be a plus for those well versed in historicals, it might seem daunting to newcomers or those who play other systems. personally, i've always enjoyed the game more than the lore for a lot of what i've played (though having something apporpriate to the fluff does make the game more fun). Without having played historicals myself, its kind of hard to say if that's maybe one of the things keeping people from picking up something like Black Powder vs, say, 40k or warma/hordes. That said, the ravenfeast game you guys put up recently looked pretty neat, and with the viking age being really in vogue in pop culture right now, it could be a good way to catch the attention of younger gamers.
Glad you found us, Randy! You are spot on with your comment about about historical detail being a possible barrier to new players who may prefer the "open world" of sci-fi or fantasy. There's certainly a segment of the historical gaming population (myself included) who really enjoy this aspect of researching what uniforms and equipment looked like, but others could find that less appealing. We definitely wanted to start with Dark Age skirmish gaming as a free gateway game because it's a lot easier to paint the figures. Earth tones and chain mail and you're about done!
Having tried to start historical in a Rural Community: I can totally see why it's a much older audience. And probably mostly more Urban. I've had a really hard time getting access to paints, minis, just generally materials. And with my first year of college starting I'm not going to have the time or money to make any significant gains on setting up new games. Older people have a lot more free time and expendable income. I think that for younger people to get it the bar for entry is going to have to be significantly lower. A big boxed kit "starter army" and the paints for it included would have certainly helped me, and I suspect others as well.
The high cost is clearly a barrier for many players--especially younger players, but also some older players who just don't have a few hundred extra dollars to drop on toys. In Part 2 next week we'll talk about at least one possible solution.
Hi Gregg It's interesting that people are framing some sort of battle between video games and wargames. Anecdotally, I have found that playing games like Post Scriptum, Hell Let Loose, Rising Storm 2, etc has been a great way of including my friends in wargaming. For instance, I plat an online ww2 shooter with my friend during the week after work, and then on the weekend can con them into a wargame by framing it as a different view of the FPS we play. It's also great for understanding why some rules are the way they are. If I'm shooting a K98 on a video game for a couple of hours a week I can grasp the nature of shooting rules for ww2 Germans.
Looks like I'm in a minority in thinking that Historical Wargames are in decline, I would say the complete opposite. It's never been easier to get into the hobby, there are loads of how to videos on the Utubes, Facebook has groups with thousands of people into specific periods, if ever there was a time to ask someone how to get into a period or scale it is now, just ask ! Money, hearing GW players saying historical games are expensive is hilarious, I've bought GW figures for my lad as he grew up and THEY are not cheap. Try Model Railways if you want expensive Historical Gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies around (unless you are paying for figs to be painted). There are hundreds of historical gaming clubs around the country and where as before you had to search the back of the only hobby magazine to find it (if you were lucky enough to buy the one your local club advertised in). Add to that the growing number of independent games shops in the UK (Common Ground in Stirling, Wargames Emporium in Sheffield etc etc) it's never been easier to search the net and find a club or gaming space. Research is so easy, want the uniform of the French Young Guard Voltigeurs in 1812, type it in your search bar and boom it's there, no ordering a book from a libary or book shop and waiting a month for it. All forms of non digital gaming are on the rise as people who sit in front of a computer all day don't want to sit in front of one to relax. This is the dawn of a Golden Age of Historical. Regards Ken The Yarkshire Gamer We have never been so lucky.
It is hard to imagine that Historical Wargames are in decline. I think the reason why people think that it is, is that Sci fi and fantasy are growing much faster.
I agree. We have a large library at our club built up over many years but it's never used now so we are gradually selling it off to our members and other local gamers.
@@michaelallen2190 its a shame Michael books are no longer the first port of call for info anymore. Ive got a big selection of uniform references but I'm guilty of sitting at my paint table, having a query on a model I'm painting and rather than go upstairs to get a book I look it up on the net. Still love a good book but rarely use them.
"we've never had it so lucky" But we do still love a good whinge ;) . As you say, info-tech gives us the tools to easily research rules and figures, as well as the history they represent. It's just up to us to make the effort to connect and engage. I have a limited view the broader picture but around where I live (small town Australia) there are a few more people playing tabletop historical games (mainly chain of command in 1/72) than there was a year ago (namely myself, my brother and a couple of mates). The only way to grow it is to do it.
I am 31, and I got into historical wargamming 5 years ago. And in my humble opinion it was the lack of exposure to companies that made historic figures what stopped me doing this earlier. When I played warhammer fantasy I liked dwarfs, and I really didn't like the magic stuff, that is why I chose them. I liked the vibe of infantry soldiers, movement and tactics and also I always liked the dwarfs from Lord Of The Rings. But I prefer history over fantasy ans sci-fi. When I saw in warhammer that things got more arcady I lost any interest left and I was alredy doing historic. I do medieval a lot. I have dark ages, feudal age and late medieval. But I don't have any fellow gammer that plays historic in my town...So, I am more into painting them and such. Maybe some day I convince some lost soul to join the dark side of gamming.
I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart-breaking. The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone. There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games. This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore. If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms. :}
I've been playing Warhammer for 20 years, but only recently started getting into Bolt Action. I've played some Dark Ages semi-historical/fantasy games with my friend, using his models and his own rule set based on Bernard Cornwell's Excalibur series. Was super great fun campaign over the damp summer and wet autumn in his garden shed. I have about 10,000 old Airfix models of Napoleonic models that he gave me because he wasn't interested in them anymore. I do need to paint them, as they're all still bare coloured plastics. But I don't really have anyone to play with anymore sadly.
I got into historical wargaming when I was 16 and I was the only guy in my group that wasn't over 40. All the other young tabletop players played Warhammer and other fantasy tabletop games.
I see fewer people interested in competitive gaming, but then I see fewer people, period. I agree with the poster who noted that its a deep dive into historical gaming of all types. It is difficult to get all the things, in hand all at once to both provide a game and matchups and rules. Triangulating all that is the hardest part. Local groups that bring all sides to the table have the best result.
As a 20 year old I've been observing wargaming from a distance as an rpg fan primarily and while I have bought some wargaming products (Star Wars Miniatures & Legion, Song of Blades & Heroes, Heroscape, etc), I would have to say my own barrier into entering the historical side of the hobby has to be that entering the hobby does take a lot of dedication in order to even start playing (army building, buying, reading, and understanding rules, buying and painting armies of miniatures, crafting terrain, etc.), and once I have all of that set up, I might not even enjoy the experience of that particular game, so in some cases I have to start all over again with another product. I don't know how to solve this issue with the hobby as it seems that "wargaming kits" are often too expensive to manufacture with little to no profit afterwards but I thought maybe my own experience could offer some insight.
I think one thing in particular that has saved Historic from disappearing is the F/b groups that now cater for all periods. I have dumped the old wargaming webpages, and switched to F/B groups. I have read some of the comments, and agree that price is a major factor but the major companies Warlord, GW and Perry Bros. bend over backwards to sell Starter boxes and unit boxes at a great price. Bolt Action is always present at conventions, and draws a crowd.
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I’m 17 and I’ve only begun to get into Wargaming but it’s historical all the way for me.
1/72 Late Roman Ancients is my thing, and I’ve somehow managed to convince five of my friends to join me in a campaign that I’m organising.
So I for one refuse to let historical wargaming go quietly into the night!
You can go back to the very roots of the game with ancient campaigns. Try the ideas of Tony Bath, who started the Society of Ancients. If you can get access to Amazon Kindle editions, its on there, very cheap, "Tony Bath's Ancient Wargaming" Very old, but some good ideas.
Same. I'm 16 just getting into late medieval shit using Lord of the Rings sbg rules.
That's fantastic, Curtis! Great job recruiting some friends into a Roman campaign!
Little Wars TV When I started out you were probably the first wargaming channel that I found which gave good advice, so thank you so much, you helped me a lot!
Good for you Curtis, keep the hobby going. Wargaming is one of the few areas in life that has not gone PC or attempts to rewrite History. Are you Gaming in metals or plastic? Hat Co. has a great diversity of figs in your area of interest in plastic HO. All the best ~RS
I'm 16 and have been into historical wargames since I was 10. I'm a huge history buff and love acting out battles in the miniature. However the hardest part is finding people to play
Yeah that is the tough part. I’m 27 my best advice is if you can’t find any friends to play or a local businesses with other players try to get a girlfriend and make her play haha. Good luck to you dude! Love to see ppl interested in history.
In the 1970s we were going to die because of D&D, in the 1980s we were going to die because of Warhammer, in the 1990s we were going to die because of Magic the Gathering. Wargaming will continue, but it will change.
Elliott James - You missed out computer gaming in the 1980s. It’s what stole the minds of both my brothers, and made me have to go out and search for a wargames club for opponents. Sadly, neither of them ever returned to figure gaming of any kind.
They are all on a continuum instead of opposed.
Good job at using a lot of words to say nothing...
I think people that proclaim the doom of Wargaming fail to realise who created it, old, affluent prussian generals and nobles. These younger things, DnD, Warhammer, and Magic are more oriented towards wider and younger audiences. They might eat up a bit of Historical Wargaming's market share, but not kill it.
I’m 19 and have been interested in historical wargaming since I was probably 14. Currently i run a small group of 5-6 guys and girls my age and we play several eras! Napoleonic, War of the Roses and WWII. I wish more people my age played.
jeremy bailey I‘m Sixteen and Play WWII
I started when I was about 14, with a home-made battleground, and I think matchbox tanks and artillery, and some home-cast lead soldiers, representing Germany v Russia at Stalingrad. That was thought-provoking.
Irregular Miniatures do Battle Sets (6, 15, 25 & 42mm). £25-160
sumerandaccad thanks! Good to know, I’ve used irregular before for their 6mms but I tend to prefer most Baccus sculpts over irregular
Wargaming is strong in Britain, that's where the best Wargames clubs and shows are.
thats a relief! I've been very eager to get into historical wargaming :)
Also strong in Australia. With quite a few young players last time I looked (although generally not as young as the Games Workshop crowd).
I feel like a lot of these kinds of discussions don't touch on one of the key parts of the hobby - ongoing costs/practicalities. Historicals aren't cheap to start, often require quite a bit of prior knowledge or research, and have more subtle expenses such as likely travelling further for a game than you'd have to if you played something GW. One of those things on its own would make it a challenge to someone under the age of 25, never mind all of them at once.
If I buy a box of Warhammer 40k orks, I know I'll be able to find people to play against. But if I buy a box of 10mm Sengoku Jidai Takeda cavalry... will I ever get to use them? It's a lot harder, that's for sure. Getting into historical wargaming in your own is almost impossible - you need a club, and then you need to adjust your collection and army to what's already in that club. Playing your 10mm samurais against 28mm Wehrmacht isn't really an option.
1/72 plastic. $9.99-14.99 typically for 48 figures. Free rules on line. It doesn't have to be expensive.
@@frankverdino477 add glue, paint, basing material, storage, game accessories - that's assuming having people who will play your rules and also have 1/72 minis - and we still have to factor in research and other expenses.
@@frankverdino477 Truedat
As well as being comparatively cheap, here in Australia 1/72 figures are also usually the only other wargaming models available in general toy and hobby shops (apart from space ork stuff) as they have long been a popular scale for historical modellers, meaning there is a vast range of figures and vehicles.
The range of periods available has also expanded greatly over recent years.
As a bonus, they are scale compatable with the broad hobby of HO railways, meaning the terrain options are huge.
I got back into WWII wargaming after a hiatus (GW burnout) and have been able to affordably acquire rules (Chain of command) and figures enough for several basic factions (Germans, English and French) , meaning that I have been able to entry sponsor my brother and a couple of friends, who are now enthusiastic enough that they are beginning to collect their own stuff.
All this for around the cost of one small 40k army.
I think Historicals are quite cheap to buy, especially when compared to Games Workshop. £35 for 10 Space Marine Primaris Intercessors, compared to £29.50 for 30 WWII Infantry from Warlord Games, or £20 for a Perry Miniatures box containing anywhere between 36 and 44 infantry.
I’m 19 and have been wargaming since I was 14 and have only ever played historical as I’m totally history crazed! Their are so many interesting aspects of history that I struggle to even imagine how people could find history boring.
Agreed, Daring Dare! There are so many fascinating stories and characters to explore. We just need to find ways to help more people realize how much fun it can be to explore those real-life events.
Little Wars TV perhaps we can attract people to historical wargaming by showing how smart and intellectual a person looks when quoting and debating history compared to fantasy and science fiction!
Same there are so many things in history but people say that it is boring simply because they think that history has a lot to read but they dont understand reading and putting it into practical is different. They just dont even want to hear or play.
@@daringdare5078 I dunno, 'Do or Do not, there is no try' has often been a quote of the day, well that or 'We need a bigger boat'
@@daringdare5078 The world seems to be going away from reading. I for one love reading and have since I was a kid. That's is truly how I became interested in history.
"Blood & Plunder", "Oak & Iron" and "Blood and Valor" are produced by the american company Firelock Games and are quite popular historical wargames. Hence there are still american produced wargames.
Love Firelock!
Blood and Plunder is the ONLY wargame I play. It has a relatively young crowd and seems to be growing in popularity. I really feel like this video was poorly researched to have no reference to Firelock Games.
I would like to state, I am 25. I wrote and still developing my own wargame in WWII. I host 4 events a year at my local library. I have on average 15-20 players all my friends and friends of friends. I started this game when I was in High School at age 18. I have been tinkering with my ruleset for a long time now and finally have a friend who is a graphic designer. We will be printing it shortly. Have no fear it is growing.
Great work, Adam! Good luck on this project.
That's quite impressive! Well done!
I want a historical miniatures wargame with all the needed parts, pieces and terrain in one BIG BOX and I am prepared to pay for it.
Perry makes one for the American civil war I believe
If you're looking for that the Travel Battle from Perry miniatures is what you're looking for. It has a complete set of rules, all the figures you need (they are 6mm napoleonic-ish figures), a hard-plastic board with terrain features such as villages, forests and fields and some dice. The assembling process is very fast and easy (if you want you can paint the whole board and figures but that is not really necessary) and the rules are pretty much easy to learn. The game was officially made for travelling gamers who want to play something while they're not home or at their gaming club but it can work as a standalone wargame and can provide lots of fun, plus it's a great entry to the hobby. Here is the link if you want to check it out www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=3637
bolt action or flames of war
How much?
The Bolt Action starter sets are good for that. Not too pricey either.
I have been playing since Don Featherstone and Charles Grant broke on the scene in the 1960's. I started the wargames club at my university. The students' union of the time were very suspicious that I was seeking to set up some right-wing militarist thing and had to be placated. They knew nothing of what a hobby wargame was. In those days it was Airfix figures, converted, where necessary, for most. Since then the hobby has just exploded in terms of what is out there - stuff we never dreamed of. Naval at all scales, fantasy wargaming with Warhammer etc. 15mm brought the price of figures down for a while, then they started to climb. But the latest versions of things like Black Powder and Bolt Action with low-density games and cheaper plastic figures have made it more affordable and practical again. You can play them on a table set up in the average living room quite easily. The other thing that happened was the growth of the Avalon Hill - style boardgame which had also started in the '60s. That is now a massive sector on its own. And the dreaded computer game, there is a huge cross-over potential from the wargames people find there into physical figures. There may be sections of the hobby that might seem "grey", as I am now, but I think that wargaming in general is alive and kicking.
Ditto with me exactly.
A quick hurrah for Messrs Featherstone and Grant. Plus Tunstill, Scruby etc etc. I am in my 8th decade and still play solo games using the 'old' rules in deepest darkest rural Wales.
Started in the early 70s with Airfix plastics. Played last night teaching 2 younger players the ropes of "Clash of Spears" a new skirmish ancients game. It's a different hobby now and much more inclusive. Nearly everyone I know play many types of game and are happy to cross over from historical games to other formats.
And Hinton Hunt figures: it is 50 years since I got my first figures and Napoleonic Austrian uhlans.
I agree ...when I was getting properly started during the Featherstone Era the choice and quality of figures was simply not there, whereas now you can buy virtually anything you can think of and in a profusion of different scales. Meanwhile DBA, in my opinion the most important rules set ever (while by no means perfect) is in its third edition after 30 years and offers an easy and low-cost intro to all sorts of different periods and armies ...but for many younger people the flashy allure of super-expensive spacemen, wizards and whatnot is impossible to resist. The best of them will eventually become historical gamers.
I started in the 1960's with home brew rules, Airfix figures and Roco Minitanks (accurate scale be d*mned!). Back then our gaming was driven as much by the modeling as the playing, and we had all the time in the world (after school) to get it done. Much older, with many more years behind than ahead, I now chose games like Wings of Glory/Sails of Glory that have prepainted components instead of spending hours prepping playing pieces. I wonder if many potential, younger players feel the same?
Rocco mini tanks were so cool.
Great video! While there is graying within the hobby, I also see many green shoots. My 13 YO loves gaming WWII with me, and he has become a real history buff. A few weeks ago, he had a friend over who saw some of our 15mm models, then the two of them proceeded to play a game of Flames of War! The more we can all encourage this, the more our hobby will thrive...
Everyone forgets us younger folk are poorer, we didn't grow up in the 50s where you got a c-suite job with a high school diploma and paid off your house on minimum wage in 10-20 years. We can barely afford food, let alone having to spend 20 dollars for one unit for a game that's likely diffficult to actually play in terms of players, distance, actually having the same minis, etc. it's more convenient to spend 400 dollars on a cheap pc or the a majour console that I will guaranteed get years usage out of, then spend the same price in minis, paints, bases, cases, transportation etc for a game I might get to play once a year. Star Wars legion is the only thing that comes close to a somewhat popular game at a budget it even then that's a hefty price tag for someone living paycheck to paycheck. I won't even get in to the ridiculousness that is prices for age of sigmar minis.
There is some pre-painted WW1 & WW2 Aircombat games like Wings of Glory and its pretty cheap to get into
Wages cut cut in half in the 70's and never really recovered. My parents tried to tell me once that they only made 5 bucks an hour tipped minimum wage, which is worth 150% of the 11.10 regular minimum now.
I think they could afford to make it a lot cheaper though if we got some good machinists and roboticists in on the manufacturing end. GW pays around 10k for an injection die, most of my friends in the industry they could do 2k easily.
I haven't bought a new Gw miniature in about 20 years. I exclusively buy used models or alternate companies, which tend to be just as expensive. I am a bit spoiled being near a major city of millions, so the stores which sell used Gw products have a great variety and have great prices.
The idea that you need 100% GW models to play still holds firm with many, but the odds that you'll be playing in an official sponsored GW Tournament is very low and I'm pretty sure most stores have almost no policy on enforcing it for their local groups. The D&D miniature line has some great options for various units if you are a bit creative.
Chris Lundgren is wings of glory even in print anymore? The companies official site doesn't have them for sale, third party games sellers tend to have like 2 planes each, and amazon has variety but low stock. I looked into it after watching these guys play it only to find the publisher doesn't even sell them anymore and everywhere I looked was either low variety or low stock.
@@deogthepoeg7872 Yes it is still being made it is still available there is also dedicated Facebook groups for it as well. The Guild House in Bellflower has it in stock as well as the War House in Long Beach Ca. facebook.com/groups/FansOfWOG/ this group can help you
Glad to have you guys back! What I think might help grow the community would be starter kits, kind of like what Star Wars Rebellion/Armada does.
In my opinion, part of the issue has to do with a lack of introductory games. The only local convention I know of is Recruits (awesome people, I meet the organizer at a band event a few years back) and there aren't really any 'pick-up-and-play' historics that people run. I'm talking games like Axis and Allies that you can just sit down and play without really any prior knowledge of the conflict. If a manufacturer made an all-in-one box set for napoleonics or ACW of a similar style (with rules like Altar of Freedom, summarized in 2 pages), I'm sure it would help expand into younger demographics.
People dont start with miniatures, you start with low cost boardgames like Squad Leader, then move UP into miniatures. minis cost too much. But with inflation even the old AH Squad Leader, or better yet remember MBT? I bought it in the 90s for $20. Well its follow up versions are still sold by the original author, only now its $100.
It would probably grow a lot faster if the miniatures, terrain, and rulebooks were more easily accessible.
Funny thing is, figures, rules and terrain, and info about how to acquire them, is in many ways more available now than ever before, mostly because of that whole internet thingy.
As an example, there are countless tutorials on yewchoob about cheap ways to make your own terrain, as well as many 'battle reports' that allow you to observe different rule mechanics in action in order to help decide which best suits your tastes.
In the end though, the fastest way to grow the hobby is to lead by example and actively participate in it.
@@corvusboreus2072 most people would rather just get something convenient like axis and allies or risk. Miniature war gaming you gotta find a book, learn all the rules, find miniatures that are pre painted, get the right terrain, it's all a pretty big hassle for most people that just wanna open a box and play on occasion.
@@rc59191 then the question becomes 'how do we make tabletop historical wargaming accessible for people who don' t want to bother collecting and painting figures and terrain, or even take the time to read rules? '
My only practical answer would be swallow the extra time, effort and money it takes to spoon feed them in the hope that a deeper genuine interest develops.
This is precisely what I have done with my brother and a couple of old friends where I have created terrain (mostly scratch built) and assembled/based/painted figures enough for several forces (1/72 plastics) and bought a ruleset (chain of command) that I can walk them through.
It has worked insofar as not only do I have people to play with/against who are gradually becoming intuitively familiar with the basic rules, but have started expressing serious interest in collecting their own forces.
Mind you, these were all longtime personal friends with keen to moderate interest in military history, so the initial investment seemed worthwhile.
As for the 'huddled masses yearning to be free', all I can offer by way of suggestion is, when covid permits, to take the trouble to set up visually appealing demonstration games at wider public events (comic conventions, open days etc) and answer all enquiries in a genuinely welcoming fashion.
I can imagine a firm producing a ‘battle in a box’. Prepainted and pre-based figures and AFVs, stylised terrain, and a playing mat. Rules and all dice and counters included. It would have to be no bigger than, say 12mm scale. But even if made and packaged in China it’s might be difficult to get the price down to an acceptable level. And a mass market probably wouldn’t tolerate anything as complex even as Bolt Action, which is a far from satisfactory rule set if you know anything about warfare.
They are. Attend any wargames show (obviously not happening now due to Covid) and there is tons of stuff on offer.
i remember the old wargamers in the 90's saying the same thing. i think we are spoiled with the amount of talented sculptors, game designers, painters, clubs, high quality you tube channels, great wargame companies, personalities in the field.
its getting time to play the flippin games amongst friends that is a problem today. also i personally find the cost of the hobby expensive now, not as much disposable income nowadays but i do have a fairly good collection from the past 40 years of gaming to keep me going. brilliant video, i would have really liked to see the rest of the interviews.
What a great topic. I must admit, being into this hobby on and off since the late 1970s, that we are in " a new golden age " with the hobby in general, historical, and fantasy/sci-fi
Great question and a great idea to ask representatives from the hobby what they think. Having wargamed as a lad, I have now returned to it and love it. Yes I am long in the tooth but most at our club are on the young side and so will be keeping the hobby going for ages.
Loved this video. Can't wait for the next video. This is a topic that definitely needs discussed and we do need to take some action to move the hobby forward. Thanks for tackling this.
David’s comments stand out to me. For as much as I love your content, military history in general, and the idea of historical wargaming, it’s not the easiest hobby to get into-and even with my strong proclivity for those things, the closest to historical miniatures wargaming that I’ve gotten was Axis & Allies miniatures back in the day and Wings of Glory more recently (thanks again). The pre-painted/assembled and self-contained rules of those games are big selling points for gamers that aren’t already plugged into a local network or club that can share experience and encouragement. I did get into Warhammer fantasy (pre Age of Sigmar) because it had a strong local infrastructure with local game stores having scheduled Warhammer days, etc. and that tends to be a huge advantage that the points-based games have.
Anyway, I’m looking forward to your next video!
The Axis and Allies collectable miniatures games were great, if a bit pricy. I had a group where we would play team games , usually two per side controlling anywhere from 100-200 points of units. Had a blast, easy to set up ,play and felt " accurate" enough ,despite it's abstractions. The " War at Sea game" was better for teams though. Gonna have to dig that stuff out again and try to convince my Gaslands fanatic brother-in-law to play it!
Welcome Back! So glad you are hitting the ground running! Trying to bring new, i.e. younger players in to historicals is really no harder than getting them into any other genre. When I had my game store, I had to point out to many a parent that balked at the entry price, that this was NOT a game, this was a hobby, and one that would possibly last a life time.
I also have found that games like 'What a Tanker', really brings the younger crowd out. I went from a quick demo at the LGS to playing with a core group of kids, (to me!) every Thursday night. Sometimes dads, moms, and older siblings stop by to see what the fuss is about. So historicals declining in popularity? No, but as others pointed out, it isn't many new players first pick.
"It's not a game, it's a hobby". Great point. We make this hobby ourselves as individuals.
I'm 29 and just getting started with historicals, specifically around the Roman conquest of Britain.
Stopped playing Warhammer around 8 years ago, spending more time playing PC games like Total War, company of heroes etc. These led me to read lots more history books, which have in turn got me itching to paint and play on the tabletop again. Regarding the cost of historicals - as someone who has dabbled with the idea of playing GW games again over the last couple of years, they actually seem extremely affordable in comparison!
In my case, for example, I picked up the Infamy, Infamy rules from TooFatLardies, a Roman force (about 80 models) and a Celtic force (150 models), plus a load of trees, mdf movement trays and an mdf Celtic building for under £200.
The models are from Victrix, and absolutely beautiful.
Another bonus is that when they can be used for a wide range of rulesets, should I get tired of this one.
Skirmish is in ascendency. People want to get into playing fast. So businesses selling historical miniatures for games that require huge figure counts will of course say the industry is dying. GW sees this; Kill Team, Warcry etc are low figure count, fast skirmish games that "lead in" to the bigger games. Some people introduced into gaming via this route expand beyond it, into other genres including historical.
I have been playing for decades and both of my sons also play. I see the problem is with wargamers. We need to mentor and be more friendly especially at conventions. Just my 2 cents. Love the channel
I'm 24 and I got my start in wargaming with Warhammer 40k. I am, however, looking into Flames of War and Team Yankee and own most of Warlord Game's historical rulebooks, including Black Powder, SPQR, and Pike and Shotte. I actually found this channel yesterday and it is encouraging me to explore historical wargaming more.
Ww2 , crusades, French and Indian war, American civil war in 28mm is so much fun!
Most people in the hobby don,t start historical till the thirtysomething. Start in sci-fi fantasy.
Sounds like me lol just jealous of all those kids who grew up with warhammer or other war games.
I play rank and file fantasy games, the 9th age primarily, and we run into a similar problem. Getting new players interested in war gaming, one way we have been able to gain new players is by play at stores not our basements, pre-pandemic at least.
I also have been interested in history from a very young age, primarily the French and Indian war and American revolution, due to growing up in Western Pennsylvania and going to reenactments. I have not gotten in to historical war gaming mostly due to the lack of a local group/scene.
As a former Fantasy player myself, the problem with T9A is similar to the issue with Historicals - you just don't have a market there. You're trying to "sell" a game specifically to the folks who played WHFB, but who *aren't* just playing WHFB with their friends in the basement. There are whole communities playing 'OldHammer' and 'MiddleHammer' and have the opinion that if something's not broke, don't fix it. People who want a tournament scene, conventions, etc are all playing 'Kings of War' or begrudgingly switched to 'Age of Sigmar'.
Even harder, because it's not like T9A has established an ecosystem. New players who want to play High Elves have to scrounge to find models and won't have the nice GW plastics that probably got them into the army. Even returning players are faced with trying to collect new armies at eye-watering FleaBay prices.
On a more personal note - I think that T9A was actually the nail in the coffin for the 8e WHFB community. In every other scenario that a game went belly-up, people kept playing it and kept it alive as it had been. 'Blood Bowl' for example, and the old editions of WHFB. When 8th bottled, the tournaments suddenly dried up. A bunch of people went to KoW, a few went to T9A, and plenty just petered-out with no big events to go to. If the ETC guys, Masters, and the T9A had put their energy into maintaining a thriving 8th edition community instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, the people who hit the Masters circuit in 2014 would have come back out in 2015 and kept coming.
Tyler Stone I agree - in addition, T9A’s agnostic fantasy, in my case, isn’t appealing at all, so I went back to 7th ed and older editions.
@@SlyBlu7For me it was being able someone to play with, my group currently has 8 locally that play 9th age, so I play 9th age. We also have an active tournament scene that typically runs 4 to 6 tournaments a year with between 30 to 50 players at each. I know not everyone likes to go to tournaments, but to keep an active and growing community you need both the friendly games and the competitive games.
If my group would have stuck with 8th for longer I would have kept playing 8th, but one of the problems with playing old hammer is nothing changes and the game begins to get boring. At least with a living game like 9th age somethings change to keep it feeling fresh.
My problem with 9th Age is that it's based on 8th edition - the version that broke Fantasy with its terrible magic system, hordes, buses, simplified movement and laser guided war machines.
It's much better to play 6th edition and just house rule it so that units fight in 2 ranks and make 5 models the normal unit frontage instead of 4 (like in 7th).
It was based off of 8th, but it is a very different game now. I would suggest checking out what it has become instead of where it came from.
18, been into Napoleonics since 15. I'd say there are more people my age playing than there was when I was 15 for sure.
Love it!
of course it’s not as popular but I still love it i’m 12 years old
Me too
Im 12 too and i love historical wargaming
Justin Hamel ya it’s so fun but expensive love from Canada 🇨🇦
Not many people our age to play with
ya
Great piece to watch guys. I have mentioned this before. I worked in the wargames industry for nearly 40 years, i am now retired. The industry has been dying for some time now. I know this as i lived it. It was for me at its most vibrant during the 1980's up to the end of the 1990's since then it has slowly died. You would only have to look at the traders we have lost, the shops that have closed down, and the convention circuit, a mere shadow of what it used to be. This of course is in the UK, and a funny thing to see your talking head mentioning the USA as the heart of wargaming, in the UK we consider the UK as the heart of wargaming, each to their own no doubt.
I wanted to get into the Historical wargaming. Bought lots of 1/72 scale Napoleonic and Roman era models because they were cheap and I could quickly build an army of them.
Why did I stop?
1) there were only 5 guys in my country that played Napoleonic era and insanely they went with 28mm scale. So in order to play with them I'd have to basically spend more to get the army I wanted in the right scale (if its not any of the major nations of the Napoleonic Wars your essentially screwed for trying to keep costs down)
2) none of my friend wanted anything to do with historical wargaming. Its has a very high bar in both cost and research to get into. Added to this, whats exciting about fighting line battles when you could be playing a sci-fi game with super powerful weapons with weird rules, or fantasy games where magic can cause untold devastation.
There is little scope for imagination with historical wargames. Hell, the historical purists in the hobby really dislike the idea of just playing pick up games or points costs. To them, you sit and do research, paint your models as historically as you can research and then research and replay famous battles.
Thats far too much work to ask new people to get on board with, yet most of the old guard in the community do not accept much else, and most rule sets dont give you the option for easy pick up games as they dont come with points costs or special rules for the different nations.
Right now, the only thing i can do with my historical miniatures is to use them in games of Warhammer 40k or other such games because im more likely to be able to arrange a game of that than anything historical.
The hobby as a whole isn't dying, but its not growing as well as it should. A trickle is not sustainable.
OK a couple of ideas, you can use counters for units, no figures needed. Most rules have points values for shopping list armies because (in the UK) thats what most games are, a 2 hour game at the local club to an agreed points value. As for not having super weapons, thats the point, you are suppose to out think your opponent, not beat them with super weapons. Use the terrain to your advantage, gain the tactical edge (usually by beating your opponent a bit at a time) and if a game is historical, you have the lessons of history to tell you how to do it.
@@zedeyejoe
Just countering the points
1) the whole point of a miniatures bases table top game is to play with the miniatures. Using counters just defeats the purpose and if your in a game store/club playing the game your not going to gain anyone looking over to admire the quality of the minitures...because there aren't any to look at. I've gotten into games by just looking at the miniatures on offer, watching the game being played amd by the next week I have something I can use to play a small first game. Using counters just doesn't do that.
2) most rules I've seen and been recommended do not come with points costs. Black Powder has some supplements with points values, but the games designer has stated many times he doesnt like the idea, and therefore the points used just arent balanced.
3) my point about super weapons was that the lack of them doesn't make for an exciting setting. Most people aren't at all bothered about history, and especially military history and so sci-fi and fantasy settings attract them more. Its hard to get people excited to play a historical based game when there is nothing to really draw them in except brightly coloured uniforms. How you are supposed to play the games using historical formations and stratagems when there are other games that allow them to "slaughter xeno scum" with rocket propelled machine guns, or bolts of eldritch lightning. There really isn't any competition when put into those terms.
My son is seven and he loves historical boardgames. We've recently picked up some Bolt Action figures but haven't gotten them to the table yet due to his fixation on Space Hulk and Imperial Assault.
Space Hulk is a great game, bought it again on re release some years ago. Game mechanics are similar to Bolt Action so you are on a winner there. Main thing is to let them roll dice and have fun, the rest will follow IMHO..
I am 40 and I have "recruited" four of my friends, all about the same age as me, for historical wargaming. At least here in Europe, there is a lot of shops and games. Not a lot of wargaming clubs in Portuga, but I know of some groups of players.
You have a great channel, keep up the good work.
Vitor Soares so do you agree that it’s mostly older people who play historical war games ?
@@markedwards2607 even though I do not see myself as older, I would say that most people start at about thirty years old. In my experience, most start with fantasy wargaming, such as 40k, or with some RPG or other, and then progressively drift towards historical wargaming.
I started with historical modeling, and from there went directly towards historical wargaming, but I am the only one I know, personally, that did that.
@@vhcsPT I’m almost 40k yet have no inclination towards history based games despite history being my favourite subject. For me history is almost sacred (I’m an atheist) and isn’t a game. Although I have built several castles for my fantasy games. I suppose it’s that history doesn’t offer the escape from reality that sci fi & fantasy games do. But I wish you and all who share your hobby the best as without historic war games the games I play would never have been made.
Edit: I’m not 40’000 years old I’m 37. Damn my fat fingers.
@@markedwards2607 thank you, sincerely. I am also an atheist but for me history is the path not taken. I love the infinite what ifs.
I have a warhammer 40k army, but no other 40k players near me. I get some fantasy games a year, but my group is formed by history lovers, and we have games on a lot a periods.
David E is spot on! Hoping more companies understand this - right or wrong people need a 'system' to buy into. It is very hard to find historical groups if there is no center of gravity (i.e. a known brand/set of rules).
I’m one of the only 16 yo I’ve ever known who plays historicals. I feel like the older generations are definitely the people really keeping the historical side of the miniature hobby alive.
Great question! I think it depends on when you started. I started historical gaming in 1977 at age 10. For the first 4-5 years, I was the only player under ~25 at my local gaming club. Most of the guys were in their late 30s, 40s and 50s. Ten years later, the situation had completely changed. I was part of a large group of historical gamers, most in their late teens and early 20s. I think the reason was that in the 1980s historical wargaming became more affordable and there was a much greater diversity of rules, figures, scales, and periods. As a kid, I didn't have the resources to build a Napoleonics army with 28mm Hincliffe figures. By the time I went to university in the mid-80s, there were lots of affordable options. Now when I go to my friendly local game store I see a lot of young players. True, most are playing fantasy and sci-fi games, but some are playing WWII and modern games. I would prefer to see more historical games, but as long as the hobby is doing well, there's always the potential for new recruits...
Great work guys! Glad to have you back at it! Really hankering to get more gaming done since COVID, and you guys help scratch the itch.
Historical gaming is not dying. Historical gamers are... sorry for the cheap shot, I feel very old lately... I'm a keen historical gamer and after all these years I still love this hobby like the first day, possibly more. So all I can say is: get those dice rolling, because I can't see a future without gaming. Cheers from Italy!
Great return,guys ! Am a game designer and all of your videos are just so excellent ! Thanks for your engagement in our little universe and passion ! Greeting from france
Much appreciated!
Great stuff. I have been a recruiter for our hobby from day one. I tend to run more games than I get to play. I tend to find out what period a potential new player may like and I dive into it. This often brings people into the hobby if the initial investment is low, as I supply most of the figures. I can stoke the interest while not causing financial stress. Eventually they begin buying their own units/Armies, which adds to the size and number of player at the table. I'm lucky as most in my group follow suit and are ambassadors for the hobby.
Hithere. I am playing Bolt Action with a small group in norther Germany. We are all between 30 and 45. But I also play Warhammer 40k, most of the 40k players are slightly younger. But I also experienced that the younger ones start with 40k and/or Age of Sigmar and then later find their way to other tabletops. So naturally they are older when they start historical wargames, but this does not mean historical wargamming is dying.
I think there were some very keen observations in there about how historical wargaming products are packaged and sold vs other wargames. Very interesting video.
Awesome video, really enjoy the discussion. I suspect wargaming is growing quickly, however historicals as a subset may be stagnant/slow growing. Not surprised manufacturing/publishing has shifted away from the US - I don't think the influence of GW in Nottingham can be understated ;) keep it up!
I think David Ensteness hit the nail on the head for why most people don't get into historical wargaming. Me and my fellow broke college student friends all play wh40k, and while I've been gently pushing to try out some historical scenarios, they haven't been receptive. Old, retired men have the time and capital to sink into a heavily research-based hobby. We don't.
Games Workshop makes it easy, which is why they're making a money hand over fist while historical wargaming is circling the drain.
Yeah, my group is all 40k, Legion, and Frostgrave. We bust out Might of Arms on special occasions, but we have the fortune of access to an extensive 15mm collection from my mate's parents.
If you can afford GWs 40K models you can easily afford Warlord's Bolt Action for example. Those of us who played 40K v2 can see a lot of its mechanics in BA. I think tabletop games are strong outside the US but historical gaming seems to be very "old school" inside the US as a generalisation.
Has it ever occurred to you that part of your group's penury might be that you are gaming with one of the most expensive figure ranges and ruleset in the market?
Take a moment to research the range and price of 1/72 historical figures, and do a bang for buck comparison with the GW range.
Then consider the comparative costs of other rulesets, bearing in mind that most don't require the constant rule and codex updates that GW games demand.
There is certainly validity to arguments for Warhammer etc in terms of their popular accessibility, but definitely not in terms of value for money.
By the way, historical rulesets also tend to be more instructive to reality than fantasies constructed around orks in space.
Something for a poor student to consider.
@@corvusboreus2072 1:72 figures aren't really an apples to apples comparison in terms of figures, since they are a lot smaller than 32mm and usually softer and simpler on the sculpts.
@@Hepabytes I realise that, but, in the end, they are all just toys on a table.
If you'd prefer one largish shiny apple over a whole big basket of mixed fruit then that is your choice.
I totally agree with David. Games with unclear information makes it harder to get into. I've been out of 40k for years and now trying to get back into it, but there are now a ton of books and other garbage that I'm not sure I need or what to pick up. While that is healthy, other games are falling into that trap. there is nothing clear as to what you need.
The first thing you need for 40k now is a guarantee from whoever you're going to be playing that they won't be bringing a cheesed out list of min/maxed crap. GW chucked any idea of balance out of the window a few years back and while the GW community will preach about 40k being fun, the company fixing problems and listening to gamers, it's rarely true. My advice would be to get on Facebook and ask one of the groups to outline the best units in the army you're interested in, then just spam those units. Be prepared to need to buy the next uber broken army every year to keep up, otherwise it'll get depressing very quickly.
I hope it isn't declining because I am still young and just invested in board games
The biggest bugbear is painting and assembling the damned things.
This is a process you have to go through, almost by default, since there's an aesthetic aspect that is strong in the hobby.
I have purchased pre-painted miniatures in the past that look the part (Battlefield Evolution: Modern Combat), but you ultimately pay for the Chinese paint job.
Great vid LWTV. Also, Gerry from OTT! As a cultist (formerly known as a backstager) I can say he looks perfectly in place and completely out of place in the fancy room-setting.
Wargaming is something friends do together. It is hard for interested strangers to find each other, much less get together to game. And given the competitive nature of the hobby, there has to be a certain common understanding and norms established over time to be enjoyable. You had a previous video where you talked about your club and how you accept new members based on how compatible they with the current club members. Making new friends gets harder as you grow older, and I do think that you need to be friends to game enjoyable. All of which makes it hard for this relatively small hobby to grow beyond its established base.
I'm a 18 year old who just purchased a 6mm Napoleonics starter set from Baccus miniatures, so I think it has a chance
Excellent to hear! And a great choice of scale, I might add!
Going small lets you play--reenact even--large battles.
I’m 16 and just recently started with collecting 28mm Napoleonics, I only paint them for collecting and display, because in my area and age group there aren’t many I could war game with. So in my case I completely leave out the rules and terrain etc. that you’d need for wargaming. A big issue is also the price of collecting, painting and basing these figures, so I am never able to buy the figures I want, because I don’t get much pocket money.
Back in the day my pocket money was one shilling a week (5p) and that bought me one figure.
Appreciate the video, I know I am "Younger" (28) and have always enjoyed historicals. however as an up and coming 6mm 3d miniatures designer I was sad to see no mention or interview of how the hobby may evolve. That is to say 3d printing which will have an ever growing power in the wargaming and miniatures world. I assume youll cover it in your next video though :)
I’m 50! I used to play table top historicals in the late 90’s. In Montreal there used to be a great hobby association called Montreal Wargamers. Today I want to go back to play tabletop battles, only problem, cost of miniatures and find players to play and the time to play and paint.
Applaud you for looking at a gateway game - reminds me of my first napoleonic boardgame - For me it comes down to 1) accessibility of more clubs that advertise and are welcoming to new players, 2) not in public as much as we could be - particularly in supporting local game stores - so much is bought online because in store inventories are hard to maintain for all periods and manufacturers - if the shift to 3d printing isnt made - perhaps a catalog like walthers that local game stores can have with easy ordering plans 3) Atlas for model railroading used to produce a free booklet that showed you easy to complex layouts - with materials listed - easy to use 4) Understand we have "channels" from historical interest, painting, gaming and so on - a club generally merges those, for someone with no clubs there are different entries for each and 5) Scale creep - too many scales - period 2mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, 18mm, 25mm, 28mm, etc up to 54mm - including in ship and plane scales and we go even further - If I am a new gamer - with all the other questions - which way do I go - Final thought I got my start with airfix 1/72 and 1/32 with a couple of colors on them - then eventually moved on to buying some of the pre-painted mikes models and some second hand figures to play
I'm a graybeard but my 14 year old son is active in the hobby (and has been for several years). He started a club at his middle school and has introduced the hobby to 10-12 fellow students. That's how we grow the hobby. We find (or spawn) champions within the target demographic, encourage them, help them with material ( terrain is key) and what ever other support we can. Of those 10-12 , three of them now have their own miniature collections and regularly participate outside of school in gaming events locally and regionally.
I'm 30, Just started doing Napoleonics 2 years ago. I was hesitant at first because I bought mine from a local shop and the guys in there playing black powder were in there 50s or 60s.
I didn't think I could fit it anywhere or find anyone my age. I'm still having a hard time in PA finding something.
I think it all boils down to time. You see older people gaming because they're usually retired. Whereas me, I love to game and paint, but I also have a house, wife, job, and kids to take care of.
Warlord games is going strong in my region. They have some amazing introductory rulesets like bolt action or black powder. Easy to learn, fun to play plus a lot of support. I believe historical wargaming is in a good state right now as there are many young players coming to historical wargaming from games workshop rulesets.
I was 37 when I got my first Bolt action set split with my friend who is 28. Played my first game last year and im hooked.
I'm 46 and I will put it to you like this...
WW1 and WW2 had such an impact on society giving most people that connection and influence with people involved in these events that also created the world we were all living in.
As those now grow up without that generation like myself talking to grandparents and their direct experiences in the second world war directly influenced my love of history and how these events they were involved in came about. This love also led to exploring other times in history for gaming.. Remember the 1980s we were drowning in books of WW2, now people have moved on to other events..
Great video chaps and very thought provoking. From my own experience on the subject, I run a small channel that is primarily focused on historical gaming but is very much Bolt Action content heavy as this is currently my main and favourite gaming rule set. Over the last year or so, it has been really interesting to chat to people through comments or social media that have either switched or expanded into historical gaming from more fantasy/sci-fi centric systems and their reasons, views and thoughts for doing so. Overall I think that these days, people that entered the hobby purely on the fantasy/sci-fi angle seem to be a lot more willing to look at the options that historical gaming has. I remember during my formative hobby years in the early 90's, there seemed to be a reluctance to look outside of the more fantasy driven gaming systems.
Great video!
I know that Bolt action is becoming very popular where I am (Singapore) as well as Flames of War. Ive bought the BA miniatures but havent painted them yet, so cant wait to get into that! After that, Ill give FoW a go!
I am an old guy but I would love to get involved with historical war gaming. I have no previous experience with it and have no idea how to do it and know of no groups close to me to get involved with. I enjoy following this channel which provides me with a gaming “fix.” Unfortunately, I am 71 and not who you are trying to get involved with the hobby!
We're looking to recruit players of all ages, Bob! That's one of the great aspects of the hobby--it can be a lifelong excuse to have fun.
I hear you Bob. Im an old guy and I am a game master looking for a new group or club myself. I run 28mm Vietnam War miniatures games / campaign and nobody to play with.
Vorpal Bite Where are you located?
Little Wars TV I am interested!
@@ThePhillsphan Indiana - I found a game store in South Bend that invited me to come and check them out - but I haven't gone yet
I would love to get into napoleonics. the problem is where the hell do i start? I've been playing miniatures games for close to 20 years now and if i cant figure out where to start how are newer people?
You are not alone, Michael. Not by a long shot. Given all the different rules, scales, and manufacturers, it can be pretty tough to figure out how to start. Especially if you don't have a local club. This is an issue we are going to address head-on next week.
Probably the best place to start Napoleonics right now is The Wargaming Company (site: thewargamingcompany.com/ ). The owner (David) is featured in this video and he does sell everything you need to get started.
Try the Facebook page the Napoleonic Wargamer, it's a good place to start should give you a lot of links. Just start with a question and you'll get plenty of people willing to give you advice.
Depends what sort of Napoleonic game you want to play. Warlord Games has a Napoleonic starter set with models and rules for a reasonable price. Osprey has a skirmish rulebook called Chosen Men if you'd rather play small skirmish games. Too Fat Ladies has a system which can be fun. Models can be from any company.
Try the small operations which require fewer troops ( and, therefore, less outlay ) - British naval landing parties with rocket/infantry support on Mediterranean/Caribbean islands: Perry do some handsome and authentic figures.
Not to blow sugar up the backsides of the crew at Little Wars, but you guys are exactly what the hobby needs. Engaging, funny and (dare I say it) relatively youthful. In Australia, the typical wargamer ( especially 'historical' ) would be a sullen doctor in his 60's who would probably recoil in pain from any curious youngster who wanted to learn the ropes.
As a greying historical miniatures gamer. My experience over the year includes going to Pacificon for the first time as a know nothing 14 year old in 1978. I had a blast. I was mainly there for TSR's first west coast DnD tournament my friend was DMing for it. While not playing DnD I would wander thru the historical miniature battle hall at the Dunfey Hotel in San Mateo. I found then as I do today that most of the grey beards were very welcoming of questions and would even ask if I wanted to learn to play. That long weekend I played Napoleanics, Franco/Prussian war. Zulu, Khartoum, Micro Armor, WWI planes. I was already into history of war and had spi and ah games I had bought with my own money.
Thru the years I have played with all ages and made it a point to always welcome questions from young people and invite them to join. Because you should pay it forward. When Flames of War was moving from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition rules I volunteered to work as a free lance Editor/Proofreader and I am credited on the second edition rule book and many of the scenario books for that rule set. At that time I was playing Flames of War regularly at 2 different game stores. That is the crux of the matter. Exposure at a regular time at a place easy to find. Twice a week at two different game stores about 30 miles apart at the same time every week from open till closing time.
We grew a handful of people playing to well over 50 regulars at both stores from all ages. The thing was we were inclusive, age, sex etc did not matter. We were helpful, showing people they could play with minimal investment, helping them learn the hobby and the art of painting miniatures and making cheap and nice terrain.
So for 4 years I was helping to grow the hobby. But when I was to old and broken to continue regular play time the hobby pretty much started to die off. Why? Because nobody was being consistent. Sure they were still playing but at odd times and at home or away from the game stores. Dedication is hard to come by for people not getting paid to play.
I have been physically unable to play tabletop miniatures because of a spinal injury, just cannot lean over a table anymore.
The main problem is schools are not teaching history like it used to be taught. Wars are being taught as shameful no matter what side you were on. This is leading to the shaming of kids who are interested in history and war. But that is my opinion. I lost 5 of my 7 uncles in World War 2, My father served in WW2, Korea and Viet Nam. My family on one side were Wild Geese, kicked out of Ireland because they would not bend the knee to Protestant England and worked as Catholic Mercenaries for Spain and France in the 1600's. They came to America in 1638 and from that time onward have every generation been in the local, county, state, colonial or American armies since. Every single generation in America since the mid 1600's to this day. I served, my daughter served. Three of my siblings served.
So generationally we come to a problem. Kids are now separated from War and are taught inappropriately about war in general at the schools here in America. The complete rewriting of history at all levels of schooling is disgraceful and for me has led to the loss of historical miniature tabletop gaming, plus the big elephant in the room PC gaming has really thrown miniatures for a loop. Cost alone has made it unbearable. Should I spend $1000 for an army or get a $60 pc game? Oh its on sale on steam for $20. Yeah I know where my money goes.
So lots of reasons for the decline. Technology, social stressors, prohibitive costs and of course the time it takes to travel to, setup and then play is quite long. And finding a place to play is not easy either.
Chris
Glad to see you guys are back. Interesting to see you guys are masking up to get rid of this pandemic. I do like wargaming via board games or minatures.
Historical war gaming has always been a middle aged guy hobby but don’t worry there are new middle aged guys coming along all the time. Lol. To be serious though If there were some hard stats that we could reference I doubt that we’d find that the numbers of historical miniature gamers in the world at any given time changes all that much. I think that the bearded fedora wearing guy you interviewed has it right. Great video as usual!
Totally disagree. I started in 6th or 7th grade with Panzer Blitz. My HS had a historical games club. What has happened is the hobby stopped supporting the younger players and other things took them away.
Middle aged white guy XD
Excellent topic and love the diversity of people you interviewed.
Unpopular opinion: wargaming is full of dorky and geeky people.
The payoff for the high price point, massive time investment, delayed gratification, and massive effort to find a club with consistent players, just to hang out with dorky/geeky middle aged dudes is incredibly low.
Its inherently unattractive for most people, children especially.
I am 28 and have been gaming since I was 12. My first entry into the hobby was warhammer 40k but since then I have mostly moved my interests into smaller companies sci fi lines for skirmish gaming. A small fast paced battle is what suits me most these days! I do also collect a lot of historical models, mainly ancient, some ACW, some boxer rebellion and ww1 and ww2. My main problem is finding people to play with, so I have sort of settled into a collecting and painting role. That said it would be great to get into club gaming again!
Well, if you're going to take a break in putting up videos, you really do know how to get back into it with a bang!
Here in Ireland the move from Historical to Fantasy changed everything. The main reason is the rules for Historical wargaming are more demanding than Fantasy if you just want to 'play'. Boxes with everything in them you need to get going, along with satisfying accessible for everyone rules would do wonders.
Great video! I have to agree that the wargaming market is continually growing and expanding. Our average wargame sells about 20,000 copies. Our popular series, like Conflict of Heroes sells on average between 30-40k per title in the first 2 years after release. The same for our Birth of America and Europe series like 878 Vikings. Military personnel, high school teachers, and home schools are also great new outlets.
Our games are now also being printed in Chinese, Czech, French, German, Polish, Russian, and Spanish - so we are seeing growing demand in non-English markets as well. This was not always the case, especially in China. Unfortunately, we see no demand or growth in India, which surprises us.
Granted, the old school game engine designs, with tons of reference charts, do not have the sales and are dying out. But the new game engine designs, which are becoming more and more sophisticated and streamlined, are on fire.
The main issues we face at this time is shipping worldwide outside of the USA. CV19 has often closed borders and shipping rates have skyrocketed.
Keep up the great work!
Uwe Eickert - Academy Games
I have painted, built, converted, read and played war games and RPG for the last 40 years and have no intention of stopping. Keep up the good work as really enjoying the feed. Could you please tell me where I can get my hands on those Perspex octagons used in the Battle of Trafalgar game?
The time of the low cost resin printer is here, KS running for the market is picking up. Getting grand scale in 15mm,6mm is doable affordable and the guts who can put together the best systems are here. You guys do amazing work, in depth with relevant research. The next decade is going to explode with colour printing ,making it even more accessible. Is that good news ? Not sure. in building and painting we also spend the time to learn about the history, is that what will become lost?
It’s not dying, just changing forms. There is large aftermarket for classic war-games, and kickstarters are coming out often.
I've played a little bit of every miniatures games, including Warhammer/40k, Warmachine, pre-painted Star Wars games, etc. Historicals were always intriguing but hard to find, and the hobby aspects are a lot less interesting - the idea of painting 200 olive drab dudes makes me go a little cross-eyed. What got me interested in taking up the historicals challenge was the opportunity to connect with my kids, who are suddenly homeschooling. It's an art project and a history lesson while still being fun. I'm just scratching the surface of what I can teach my kids through the hobby, but the homeschooling audience would be a good one to consider.
Like so many discussions, this video and the interviewees really focus on miniature war gaming as a business, not as a hobby. They judge it on sales, on who can make it a career. Stamp collecting is still a hobby, even though people don't make a living off the hobby. The hobby will remain, but as a business? Probably not forever.
One of the opening shots shows the 2020 Cold Wars dealers hall. It looked pretty empty but to be fair Covid was just breaking out and Cold Wars attendance was down more than 50% from normal.
I enjoyed the video. I am now one of the old codgers playing historical wargames, though I did start when I was 17 (48 years ago). I don't see this part of the gaming hobby dying out as it seems the same to me over time just new generations replacing the old around the time they reach middle age. There are now the big companies with their gaming systems which match the fantasy/SciFi products out there that attract younger gamers. Over the years I have looked at the SciFi models and thought pretty shiny things but have never been tempted to divert from my historical collections. What struck me about the video was there appeared a different view either side of the pond with a more positive view on my side (Europe). My worry for the hobby is that the small and one man band producers are the ones that appear not to be being replaced by younger entrepreneurs and unless they are bought out by the "big" companies we lose their rules and models. In my opinion many of which are better than the products of the "big" companies.
Been gaming for over 30 years, one pattern I have seen, is that the majority of people who are new to the wargaming hobby start off with the Fantasy/Sci-Fi games, and as they get older develop a taste and interest in Historical wargaming. I have long suspected it is partly based in a burn out of the game design of Warhammer and the like. Too heavily focused on flashy special rules that require little tactical depth.
I went to the old Genghis Cons in Denver with my dad when I was like 6 or so. I was allowed to roll all the dice as long as I behaved! Hopefully one day I'll get my kids in on historical miniatures!
For a hobby that's supposedly dying, it's moving a lot and making a great deal of noise, mostly very encouraging. I thought it was healthy before but this discussion shows it's even more lively than expected.
Well, I'm very interested in what you will show us, the wargamers next time!
I like what Jay Arnold says here, although at least in our club (mostly board and card gamers) it is very difficult to convince people who play "normal" (euro style) boardgames to play a game along with us, the wargamers. As Jay says, there is more in wargaming then simply put your toys on the table and go for it.
I'm a 48 year old who has been intrigued by the idea of historical wargaming since my teenage years. But only entered the hobby a year ago, thanks to stumbling across Little Wars TV. Thanks guys! So why did it take so long?
1) Inaccessible: Had no idea where to start with rules, miniatures, etc. There needs to be some sort of 'entry drug' into historicals, like Warhammer 40K and similar games for sci fi/fantasy. Bolt Action, Flames of War and similar are close, but not quite. There is still a lot of 'what do I need to buy to play a game' questions involved. A solid big boxed set of everything, or even a direct list of what to buy to get started would help. It took me a long time after starting down the Little Wars TV rabbit hole until I figured out what to play and what I needed/where i could buy it.
2) No players: I play a lot of RPGs, and thankfully one of the other guys is interested in historical too. So solved that problem recently.
i've been watching this channel over the last week or so, and it's really caught my attention. Historicals were something i'd not paid much attention to (i primarly play 40k), but they look intriguing. One thing i've noticed, though, is the attention to historical detail present in a lot of these games. While this might be a plus for those well versed in historicals, it might seem daunting to newcomers or those who play other systems. personally, i've always enjoyed the game more than the lore for a lot of what i've played (though having something apporpriate to the fluff does make the game more fun). Without having played historicals myself, its kind of hard to say if that's maybe one of the things keeping people from picking up something like Black Powder vs, say, 40k or warma/hordes. That said, the ravenfeast game you guys put up recently looked pretty neat, and with the viking age being really in vogue in pop culture right now, it could be a good way to catch the attention of younger gamers.
Glad you found us, Randy! You are spot on with your comment about about historical detail being a possible barrier to new players who may prefer the "open world" of sci-fi or fantasy. There's certainly a segment of the historical gaming population (myself included) who really enjoy this aspect of researching what uniforms and equipment looked like, but others could find that less appealing. We definitely wanted to start with Dark Age skirmish gaming as a free gateway game because it's a lot easier to paint the figures. Earth tones and chain mail and you're about done!
Having tried to start historical in a Rural Community: I can totally see why it's a much older audience. And probably mostly more Urban. I've had a really hard time getting access to paints, minis, just generally materials. And with my first year of college starting I'm not going to have the time or money to make any significant gains on setting up new games. Older people have a lot more free time and expendable income. I think that for younger people to get it the bar for entry is going to have to be significantly lower. A big boxed kit "starter army" and the paints for it included would have certainly helped me, and I suspect others as well.
The high cost is clearly a barrier for many players--especially younger players, but also some older players who just don't have a few hundred extra dollars to drop on toys. In Part 2 next week we'll talk about at least one possible solution.
Hi Gregg
It's interesting that people are framing some sort of battle between video games and wargames. Anecdotally, I have found that playing games like Post Scriptum, Hell Let Loose, Rising Storm 2, etc has been a great way of including my friends in wargaming. For instance, I plat an online ww2 shooter with my friend during the week after work, and then on the weekend can con them into a wargame by framing it as a different view of the FPS we play. It's also great for understanding why some rules are the way they are. If I'm shooting a K98 on a video game for a couple of hours a week I can grasp the nature of shooting rules for ww2 Germans.
Looks like I'm in a minority in thinking that Historical Wargames are in decline, I would say the complete opposite.
It's never been easier to get into the hobby, there are loads of how to videos on the Utubes, Facebook has groups with thousands of people into specific periods, if ever there was a time to ask someone how to get into a period or scale it is now, just ask !
Money, hearing GW players saying historical games are expensive is hilarious, I've bought GW figures for my lad as he grew up and THEY are not cheap. Try Model Railways if you want expensive Historical Gaming is one of the cheapest hobbies around (unless you are paying for figs to be painted).
There are hundreds of historical gaming clubs around the country and where as before you had to search the back of the only hobby magazine to find it (if you were lucky enough to buy the one your local club advertised in). Add to that the growing number of independent games shops in the UK (Common Ground in Stirling, Wargames Emporium in Sheffield etc etc) it's never been easier to search the net and find a club or gaming space.
Research is so easy, want the uniform of the French Young Guard Voltigeurs in 1812, type it in your search bar and boom it's there, no ordering a book from a libary or book shop and waiting a month for it.
All forms of non digital gaming are on the rise as people who sit in front of a computer all day don't want to sit in front of one to relax. This is the dawn of a Golden Age of Historical.
Regards Ken
The Yarkshire Gamer
We have never been so lucky.
It is hard to imagine that Historical Wargames are in decline. I think the reason why people think that it is, is that Sci fi and fantasy are growing much faster.
It was interesting to see the different opinions from the US which seemed very negative and the UK which was very positive 👍
I agree. We have a large library at our club built up over many years but it's never used now so we are gradually selling it off to our members and other local gamers.
@@michaelallen2190 its a shame Michael books are no longer the first port of call for info anymore. Ive got a big selection of uniform references but I'm guilty of sitting at my paint table, having a query on a model I'm painting and rather than go upstairs to get a book I look it up on the net.
Still love a good book but rarely use them.
"we've never had it so lucky"
But we do still love a good whinge ;) .
As you say, info-tech gives us the tools to easily research rules and figures, as well as the history they represent.
It's just up to us to make the effort to connect and engage.
I have a limited view the broader picture but around where I live (small town Australia) there are a few more people playing tabletop historical games (mainly chain of command in 1/72) than there was a year ago (namely myself, my brother and a couple of mates).
The only way to grow it is to do it.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, I'll work on a reaction video
Please do! We would love to share it. Such an important topic for those of us currently in the community to talk about.
I am 31, and I got into historical wargamming 5 years ago. And in my humble opinion it was the lack of exposure to companies that made historic figures what stopped me doing this earlier. When I played warhammer fantasy I liked dwarfs, and I really didn't like the magic stuff, that is why I chose them. I liked the vibe of infantry soldiers, movement and tactics and also I always liked the dwarfs from Lord Of The Rings. But I prefer history over fantasy ans sci-fi. When I saw in warhammer that things got more arcady I lost any interest left and I was alredy doing historic. I do medieval a lot. I have dark ages, feudal age and late medieval. But I don't have any fellow gammer that plays historic in my town...So, I am more into painting them and such. Maybe some day I convince some lost soul to join the dark side of gamming.
I am a longtime fan of historical miniature war-gaming with an interest in massed armies, primarily the blackpowder periods. A constant member of HMGS, attending all three of the usual conventions on the East Coast; their closure this year was heart-breaking.
The discussions concerning cost of figures, travel and other paraphernalia in the covid era have an impact on everyone.
There is an opportunity for simulated figure war-gaming available that some may not be aware of. D and D players are aware of it, regular board game players are, and so is the Lock and Load company. They have moved many of their board games to this environment as free offerings. They are even looking at mini-conventions for the games.
This is the Tabletop Simulator available on the Steam network. It is exactly that and people can set up any game there emulating a regular table. There are a variety of 2D and 3D games available created by users but no massed historical war-gaming so far. This could be an excellent environment for HMGS to explore.
If 3D figures for historical games are primarily designed in computers anyway, that should be a simple addition and so should rule sets. I would think this is an easy way for companies to create an appeal for the gaming public to want their products in both digital and physical forms.
:}
I've been playing Warhammer for 20 years, but only recently started getting into Bolt Action. I've played some Dark Ages semi-historical/fantasy games with my friend, using his models and his own rule set based on Bernard Cornwell's Excalibur series. Was super great fun campaign over the damp summer and wet autumn in his garden shed. I have about 10,000 old Airfix models of Napoleonic models that he gave me because he wasn't interested in them anymore. I do need to paint them, as they're all still bare coloured plastics. But I don't really have anyone to play with anymore sadly.
I got into historical wargaming when I was 16 and I was the only guy in my group that wasn't over 40. All the other young tabletop players played Warhammer and other fantasy tabletop games.
I see fewer people interested in competitive gaming, but then I see fewer people, period. I agree with the poster who noted that its a deep dive into historical gaming of all types. It is difficult to get all the things, in hand all at once to both provide a game and matchups and rules. Triangulating all that is the hardest part. Local groups that bring all sides to the table have the best result.
As a 20 year old I've been observing wargaming from a distance as an rpg fan primarily and while I have bought some wargaming products (Star Wars Miniatures & Legion, Song of Blades & Heroes, Heroscape, etc), I would have to say my own barrier into entering the historical side of the hobby has to be that entering the hobby does take a lot of dedication in order to even start playing (army building, buying, reading, and understanding rules, buying and painting armies of miniatures, crafting terrain, etc.), and once I have all of that set up, I might not even enjoy the experience of that particular game, so in some cases I have to start all over again with another product. I don't know how to solve this issue with the hobby as it seems that "wargaming kits" are often too expensive to manufacture with little to no profit afterwards but I thought maybe my own experience could offer some insight.
I think one thing in particular that has saved Historic from disappearing is the F/b groups that now cater for all periods. I have dumped the old wargaming webpages, and switched to F/B groups. I have read some of the comments, and agree that price is a major factor but the major companies Warlord, GW and Perry Bros. bend over backwards to sell Starter boxes and unit boxes at a great price. Bolt Action is always present at conventions, and draws a crowd.