There we go, finally a calm, professional and independent take on Srams transmission 👌 Keep up the good work 👍 Would love to see an in depth video when your team gets their hands on the new stuff.
GC Performance video also has the same opinion. He could not compliment SRAM enough of the work they have put into the new groupset including all the videos on their website relating to the set up and maintenance of it. I really like how all the individual parts of the rear derailleur can be replaced and the pulley wheel design is well thought out too.
The simplicity of setting up the Transmission is amazing. I'm not a bike mechanic nor would I claim to be. However, the ease of installing the Transmission and "Tuning" it made it so I was able to build my own SB160 from frame up in my basement. I was always intimidated with the whole drivetrain stuff but figured I'd giving it a try. Glad I did. Rides like a dream.
Fantic has a video where they pound on the derailleur and it holds up. Even still shifts ok after getting hit. The video just popped up on my feed. I've never heard if them before.
Have subscribed to your channel. So refreshing to have professional hands on discussions in a cool calm manner (as opposed to the US strident presentations).
Background would be helpful. I didn't see the other videos and have no idea why we jumped straight into rear mech hangars. Guessing the new SRAM stuff is sensitive.. or have they been shipping bent. Dunno.
Ah. There are a lot of other TH-camrs that jumped on the bandwagon immediately after the embargo lifted. I am about 24 hours late to the show. Sorry. I guess this will make sense when you have seen more.
My whole professional mechanic career I have been working to smooth the difference of tolerances to make a bike work. I have seen my fair share of bikes where the mech hanger sits misaligned on the frame and needs to be bent to compensate in order to have the gears work correctly. I am not confident that the bike industry can pull off less adjustability and maintain such tight tolerances that eliminating adjustability is possible in the long run. Only time I have seen a perfectly aligned bike is in the CAD drawings. Most recently I have seen plenty of Sram UDH bikes with Sram Eagle rear mechs where it's almost impossible to get the top pulley to line up perfectly vertical with the cassette cogs leading to the chain clicking on adjacent cogs. The misalignment is not horizontal aka cable tension, but vertical twisting leaving the top pulley just slightly canted to one side from perfect vertical alignment requiring bending of the mech hanger to compensate. Also I agree about the derailleur hanger alignment tools. Personally I prefer the Shimano tool for that job, but even that has so much play that you are basically just relying on your eyes and mechanic experience to get the derailleur into functionally correct alignment.
I think we take different approaches. I’ll fit a CNC hanger and check it’s alignment. If it’s out I’ll sort the frame. Usually full of paint, muck or burs. I only start bending things as a temporary fix.
@@Mapdec Taking the extra paint or burrs off is the first step but doesn't always solve the issue completely and then the only solution left is derailleur hanger modification because modifying the frame is more costly and will void warranties. Worst case I have ever seen was a LOOK bike where the hanger sat so crooked on the frame that it would have required a few millimeters of material removal from the carbon drop out to make the alignment correct or alternatively modifying the derailleur hanger to fit the wonky frame. Of course swapping the frame is always a possibility but you are then basically rolling the dice and hoping for a better specimen. Can work out great or end up worse off in the lottery of bike industry tolerances.
@@Sandzsteedt There will always be outlines. Tonights vid is a good example. I think I would have fixed that frame. Pretty useless to the rider if they need to bend a fresh hanger if they break on out on a ride.
@@Nico-jt8ll something's gotta give. if this example is not tough enough for the frame to take damage, then it won't. Have you tested it? I bet not of course...
First and foremost ....I like the kind of trend, you youtuber challenge or comments each others updates. Hambini, Peak Tourqe and Mapec all have the knowledge to say a thing or more about the tech. By this its become more believable for the user. You need more than the comments from the subscribers. Keep doing this, and don't worry for the serious user to distinguish betw serious exchange or shaming of knowledge. Appreciate your style Mapdec:)
As a mechanical engineer myself I have to agree but also disagree. I think you are right when it comes to the alignment aspects. Rear mech alignment tools are definitely no precision instruments and although I think the concept of a properly designed mech hanger still lends itself to better alignment in general (because you can fiddle with it when needed), good enough tolerances on frames for good shifting should be achievable even in the incompetent bike industry. But SRAM ditching the mech hanger as a whole is just plain stupid and creates more problems than it solves (if there were any the begin with!?). The whole idea of a mech hanger is to be the sacrificial element between two expensive components (frame and derailleur). Introducing a shit load of force with a now super strong mech hanger directly into the frame is just bad engineering and a flawed concept. As a side note: I might be wrong, but to my knowledge fixing carbon drop outs which got damaged from serrated skewers and knurled end caps is one of the most often repairs done by carbon fibre repair specialist… Ask guys like Luescher Teknik or the guys at carbonbikerepair
Everything you wrote makes sense. Despite being able to replace the sandwich parts that will be alot stiffer, unless they make it of weaker material but judging by their standing on the Rd and swinging bike in reverse from clock down smashing it into a wall it transfers force into the frame. I see cycling media mentions AXS motor moves the Rd i on impact and gets it out, but a regular Rd does that just by the spring.
@@Raumance the two sadwich plates, yes, but still much stiffer than a properly designed Rd hanger with right amount of flex and proper failsafe. So unless they made it much weaker this won't do, they made it so strong you can stand on it,pu5ting all force into the frame. 😁How does tha t make any sense?
Reality I think is that frames will be more than strong enough for normal situations. There will always be that mega crash. Just a little joke here, but have you seen the price of these things? Islets almost cheaper to replace a swing arm than a rear mech.
IMHO, the point Peak Torque was making for the alignment tool was nothing to do with the Park tool, instead he was making the point that with the right tool, you can slightly bend the hanger to adjust the derailleur to the alignment it needs to be, to correct sloppy manufacturing of the bike brands. While with this SRAM stuff, you really don't have that option.
The tolerance of that is massive. Something that is very easily fixed. We are not talking points of mm here. That tool will have 1mm of slop in it at least.
@@Mapdec i have the Dag 2.2. Which has that. But I upgraded 3d printed part, cmhPrintedDesigns FlipDAG-2. I can swing the rod away without repositioning the rod it self. Nice way of improving the Dag2.0 but I see Parktool has a Dag3.0 now. But Abbey Hag had great functionality before Parktool did that. But I save some money, I already had dag2.0, so upgraded it.
@@Mapdec if you think that's sloppy you will not like their torque wrenches. The rotating ratchet head tha you install he socket or adapter on has huge play. I can move it in all direction, and the original socket adapter ha splay too, and falls off. So using jus t index finger ptetighten bolt by spinning it won't work, it will come off. But best to use a hex key first then torque wrench anyway. But still that's crazy a put of play. But I have a Jonesway adapter so that has a secure connection with the socket, but can be hard to remove, but on the head it actually is not secure even though, but that's due to undersized square I guess. But original is just crazy.
@@Mapdec Not saying it doesn't. I think Park Tools suck ass personally. What I'm saying, is that using the his or a similar tool it is possible to achieve alignment close enough for everything to function IF you have the alloy hanger. Thereby compensating for the crap tolerances of bike brands. In contrast, with this SRAM version, you can't tweek the alignment using the hanger, you are stuck with a rigid hanger, rigid derailuer that won't work properly if the frame isn't spot on. However existing hanger gives you a chance of achieving enough alignment for proper functionality on those subpar bike frames using an alignment tool (just used Park's because it is widely available, ages are available, and still can get the job done with enough fiddling).
Good debate. We are going full circle. SRAM has done some great engineering -time will tell if there are issues. Having a few fit and light tech editors ride it is one thing but us heavier middle aged men is another.... When mountain bikes transitioned from mass production steel to crappy aluminum - the Alu hangers bent when you farted in that general direction. Bending Alu back is not a great idea other than in emergencies as it is not ductile and cracks. With most steel it was not a big deal. Hence the "Replaceable Derailleur Hanger" was invented by the bike industry to fix the issue they just created by switching to Alu. I know as my 1990 Trek 8000 was useless after the hanger bent. I will not go into work hardening etc.... but it was a big issue. Every time you bend it back - it gets worse. So great point - always replace the Alu hanger. The main idea was to have a weak replaceable point between the mech and frame. NOW head to 2023 - the reason for the creation of the hanger may or may not exist anymore and has been replaced by the issue of your frame costing more than James Bond's Aston Martin. Peak Torque's main argument of the energy now all going to the frame is still correct. There is no longer a weak replaceable point in the system. Keep up the good work :)
As someone mentioned previously, loving the polite, informed back and forth between a bunch of professionals. This makes life easier for the rest of us. But, I'm still on team replaceable mech hangers, just for ease of replacement. At least for now. Thanks guys
"sram udh... is a big chunk of metal and youre not really bending that backwards". Watching this 2 days after trailside realignment of udh using 5mm hex and an eye made me smile :)
@@Onigure have you replaced it under warranty claim? if not, you definitely should, that's the point of owning trek - it will break, but at least they replace everyting without asking. sincerley, your (probably not local) trek mechanic ;)
@@edghaar I have and my shop replaced it with no issues. But when the udh breaks and you are under heavy load (I usually climb 25% slopes) you also damage your chain stays, spokes and even the derailleur because of the recoil. I opted for alternatives with no improvement. I think is the vibrations of the aluminium frame and the strenght of the quick release damaging the udh.
Great i don't use a 2014 Fuel Ex anymore, I had to straighten the hanger absurdly many times, as it bent every time I rode the bike. Love My Geometron G1, no such issues, only bend it if bike falls over when I have to bail. I just do some minor adjustments and I got perfect shifting again. But I always have a spare hanger with me. Seems like they nailed the stiffness and flex, bending ability. and it snaps if i get a stick in the spokes, which happen, a thick branch from a pine tree. So my question is how does Sram Transmission handle this type of incident?
Shimano has a patent for a mechanical direct mount RD. But they also have an updated patent for the triple pulley RD from the 80s, but that design has a M6100/m7100/m8100/M9100 style RD design but the cage sits differently, and has 3 pulleys, and cage sit higher up, so you get few mm more clearance. But I don't know if that design is something they are planning on using in the future as a part of a new design or if they abandoned it. But the Rds from the old times were actually a product, but was short lived.
Just bought the DAG-2.2, there is some play, but it did the job. It cost me £60 and the Abbey tools one is almost four times that, much as I wanted it, it couldn’t be justified- 100% the right choice for a professional though. Anyway, I’ll keep an open mind. At the moment I’m thinking that in the event of an impact a replacement hanger is going to be easier to get hold of than parts for a SRAM mech - based on my experience of trying to find basic stuff like b screws for old mechs (x9 I think it was)
@@Mapdec agreed, it’s not a precision tool. As I said in my original comment I still find it hard to source replacement SRAM parts. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places or as a bike shop you have more access than a retail customer, but it puts me off. Thanks for the thoughtful videos!
To me it just seems like the transmission line was really designed for e-bikes. My only issue with sram 1x since the first gen xx1 has been the gear steps, their cassettes just don't make sense, and this one doubles down on that by using narrow wide teeth on all cogs, so you're forced to have an even number of teeth on them. This makes the gear step between the smaller cogs huge. I see why they did it, it makes it so yo can shift under much higher load and the cogs are probably stronger too, but this wasn't really something that needed improvement, unless you were riding an e-bike.
Defo designed with eBike in mind. It’s the fastest growing sector. Even faster than gravel. Steps between cogs don’t bother most people. They just adapt, change their cadence by a few rpm.
@@Mapdec My hack is to use Rotor's 12spd cassette. 11-15t you have single tooth jumps. It has larger jumps between the larger cogs, but that's not the area where you're really looking to fine tune your cadence anyway.
2. When we started using replaceable hangers, we introduced fatigue failure into the part, that never used to be there. I generally had to replace the hanger once a year as you could feel the shifting start to get soft, and on inspection you could find micro-cracks in the hanger from the shifting forces. This new design is well triangulated so should be immune to fatigue failure
You must have some serious problems with shifting technique and cable maintenance to develop these cracks so fast! Either way, new design is still not immune as the material is still aluminium, the limit must be higher though.
@@feedbackzaloop mostly discovered when i worked at a shop, people would come in apparently needing a gear adjustment, and I'd always check the hanger for cracks before I straightened it, cause if I put a tool on it and it broke it was then my fault. But I was riding and racing a lot so it took its toll on my own stuff. Also depends on the hanger design, some of them have really thin sections.
@@galenkehler could then those cracks be rather from previous alignment attempts. Crashes - so common in racing - also take a huge toll, even when you think nothing got damaged.
@@feedbackzaloop not likely, crash damaged hangers tend to be less uniform, whereas the fatigue failures are a series of uniform parallel lines. Although I don't know the whole history of the customers, I do know my own weren't crashed or straightened
@@galenkehler set of parallel lines is just an indicator of bending prevailing over shear and twist. If it happened instantaneously or over time, you have to observe the cross-section, not surface. Fatigue damage also shows striations, but at grannular scale, seen with magnification or very sharp eye only.
Is my thinking wrong: During a side impact the outside "arm" will pull the through axle in a downward angle and the inside arm will push it in an opposite direction. Since the through axle is stiff the frame will have a small inward flex. Maybe smaller than with a normal well made hanger? On the other hand, will the through axle put stress to the driveside hub bearing during the impact?
We are talking huge numbers here. The sort of impacts where you will be more worried about your own health than the bike. Time will tell, but testing looks like it will take a hell of a hit before anything breaks
@@Mapdec I understood what you said, but since I am not an engineer, I am trying to understand how the forces are applied regardless the magnitude of impact. After I commented I saw an interview of the Sram chief engineer where he says that in case of an impact the load goes to the axle and almost none to the frame.
My 2019 SC Chameleon's proprietary sliding dropouts with integrated RD hanger prevents me from even considering this new tech.... Whew, that was close!
Can i ask what problem they are solving? Hanger is there so frame can survive when something get stuck in R.D. (etc. r.d. get in the spokes after the crash).
Mostly torque from long cages, more technical riders and eBikes. A slightly bent hanger and some torque from a bad shift or big pedal push can destroy a mech.
I would not mind testing one if Sram send tme one. But not going to buy that. But I would only do so on a sacrificial frame. So far best electronic option on a budget or at all in my opinion is Archer D1XTRAIL, and now with the new shifter released, Sram battery and DI1 compability as a emergency solution is great. I already have the paddle remote, which had a great feel, great ergonomics, atleast for me. Only complaint is seal on USB can easily be torn off in a crash. But the new shifter has hot swappable battery. So no more need to get batteries in and out. And you can borrow a AXS battery if you need to too. For rear derailleur no matter if its low budget build or high end build, Shimano Deore M6100 sgs rear derailleur, shifts smooth, it's cheap. Looks great. If you want great cassette with low weight and cheaper than Sram Xx1, Shimano XTR go for Garbaruk. You can even go to 11 speed version if you use HG. But they make 12 speed versions for Microspline, XD drive. It works well enough. No complaints under power, nor did I with Deore m5100 cassette, but that's a bit more than double the weight with around 600, but Garbaruk is around 300g. I have it in silver, biggest cog is bolted on, but it's secure. So I think I have the most cost effective and performance oriented setup, go deor efor price and Garbaruk Cs for weight. But archer d1xtrail if you benefit from the electronic shifting which I do by a great deal, as my thumb misalignment issues are not a problem anymore, with mechanical it could be painful, when thumb misaligns during a shift, while I was pressing the lever. With d1xtrail I don't get any pain nor fatigue, super light action. So I am definitely sticking with that. Despite two D1xtrail shifters failing. But it was repaired under warranty, I have one on its way to them, they repaired one. I knew this was an drawback of electronic shifting so that's why I got two. But so both bikes have it.
Thanks for this very valuable evaluation - I think it's fantastic that we're having such a lively, yet respectful discussion among the cycling community about it. However what I'd really like to hear your opinion about is how the lack of a sacrificial derailleur hanger would pan out for the frame in case of an impact - would the overall added rigidity of the whole system protect the frame or would it lead to a higher chance of a frame cracking?
There are a lot of variables to play out in a state of chaos (crash) it would need a really really big crash. One where the date of your frame is probably least on your mind. Jokingly, it might actually be cheaper to replace a swing arm component than a rear mech 😂
Slightly off topic .Do you have any experience of vel wheels ? £500 for a set of carbon gravel wheels seems too good to be true. I’ve noticed they are specced with brass nipples as well .I’m tempted to try them out.
Yes. Is it the sigma house brand? The rims are pretty standard and seem ok. The rest can all be changed out if it goes wrong. You’re getting a set of wheels for the price of one rim from many brands.
Yes , they are the sigma sports brand .I might take a punt on them .If not I’ll go for the dt swiss gr 1600s .Thanks for the speedy reply . First came across your videos during the World Cup . Great to see more people who know what they are talking about giving actual advice and not just delivering a sales pitch.Keep up the good work.
Like with AXS, it’s a nice innovation of the kind which SRAM is good at. If it’s better or worse: let’s wait and see. I love using AXS but it is not exactly built for repairability! Like my 10 year old 10 speed Campagnolo system is. SRAM on the other hand seems to deny that the new Eagle even needs repairing. That seems naïve to me.
transmission aside that udh is cheaper to replace than paying a pro bike mechanic to bend it back, 12 quid a go for mtb ones do wonder who will be the first to break their chainstay with those new mechs
My worry is what will be the availability of older mech hangars or deralieur types in future. I.e. old version of gx etc. Would kill the lifespan of current non udh frames overnight. Potentially contributing to more waste in the industry.
@@Mapdec hope so, I've got a Niner emtb and just trying to source their current hangar in the UK is crap, nevermind in future. I'm aware there's third party manufacturers but compared to like a standard Whyte mech the prices are steeper for a bit of cncd metal. Ah well, cycling expensive as it is, bit more won't hurt 😂😅
I think Peak Torque's opinion and speculation is just that...opinion and speculation. He doesn't have the actual transmission and he didn't conduct long-term testing like other channels did. It'll be alright if he just admitted that he's sceptical about the product but that wasn't the case. I agree with your point that this isn't a gimmick, it's the real deal. I think SRAM has moved in the right direction and it'll be interesting to see how Shimano responds.
@@Mapdec thanks for pointing this out to me. Indeed he has. I saw that he's just released another video on the subject and I'm assuming he's re-evaluated his views. I'll be watching it later. 👍👍👍
WEll one downside is you need another full on drivetrain change, spendy. But yeah it's very nice. Not everyone has bikes with UDH hangers(my 3 bikes have them luckily).
5:08 Carbon drop outs is absurd. It's a bad idea, and carbon experts say so too. Alu frames will handle it better, even for decades of riding. But carbon gets worn powdered.
1:34 Who is a hag? 😛 The Hag seems too be popular, all Abbey stuff seems to be. They sell quite fast, I see sometimes even on Abbey's website they get out of stock. But great there are several retailers that sell their tools in Europe.
Just another of many reasons Hate sram. Paul, the companies can’t get a simple BB hole correct, what makes you think they’ll be able to get a derailleur mount right? And To a wheel, freehub and cassette they often don’t even make? I’ll be waiting for your first video on one of these bikes when they come in your shop and the hanger is out of alignment and see what your recourse will be to fix it.
Aye. It’s not a fine tolerance like a BB though. They have been making straight mech hanger mounts forever. Biggest issue is the weak ass hangers made from the softest alu that wouldn’t cause uri Geller any problems. If a DAG can fix it, the tolerance is massive compared to a BB.
Skewer being rough on the dropouts didn’t matter because we didn’t use the dropout face AS A DATUM POINT. Whereas in this case the faces are key and have to be to a high specification…
1. As a non-crashy person, I'll gladly take the years of 24/7 shifting performance over some hypothetical crash situation. My first three bikes back in the 90s and 2000s had solid hangers and they were fantastic, never failed and shifted much better. (And survived many crashes)
I have to say that in 20 years of mountain biking i have never bent a hanger. I guess there is always 'what if' but the chances are that during the service life of the new Sram derailleur the chance it will be damaged beyond repair is actually very low.
I do have a few questions, and some thoughts: 1. Why using Sram’s UDH (Universal Derailleur Hanger) instead of the stock hanger solves hanger problem? 2. Being a Sram proprietary design, how ‘universal’ this UDH could be? 3. The Transmission system did not do away the derailleur hanger, but just hiding it with a beefed up outer plate (B-body)? I think derailleur hanger is becoming the next battlefield, after decades of Bottom Bracket ‘Standards’, after another Standards.
Cool. 1. Because we waste hours of our life tracking down random hangers from a range of 1000s. Some are not made anymore, some are so weak and pathetic that owners carry spares. The UDH is actually a very good design and I would welcome it’s mass adoption. 2. There is no licence on the UDH. It is free to use. Unlike Shimano Microspline for example. 3. I guess that’s one way of looking at it. Pinion gear box anyone? I guess Shimano might try and launch their own similar design. It would only serve to tie the owner of a bike to a brand of groupset. I can see this happening. It already does. You can’t fit a Bosch motor to a Shimano eBike mount etc
@@Mapdec Thanks heaps! I’m just thinking, in the lifetime of a frame (and hanger), when in once (or twice) the hanger has gone beyond repair, it’s probably about time for a new frame too? As I don’t belief that all impacts only bull-eyeing onto derailleur and its hanger and just missed the frame, and/or the chain stays? Having said, I’m aware that derailleur is hung protruding on road bike though, but not on mtb derailleur, as seen on shimano mtb derailleurs, they are all recessed not standing proud, so ...
The german journal „Tour“ tested (3-2023) roadbike chains for wear and far the worst have been SRAM Force/Rival/Red (Force even ripped after 20hrs). Shimano and Campa won with a big gap.
BSA bb is coming back, like it or not! The local Trek dealer sold off their facing tool, and still had the bb tap sets! Hadn't used them for 10 years. Wound up facing with machinist bluing and file! "The bikes they sell don't need facing" Yeah right! Even outboard bearing bbs need facing once in a while! They need to get ready for aluminum inserts to disbond too. Neutral on the SRAM topic. Maybe it's part of a solution, but unless widely adopted, it'll be the next marketing failure.
So true. Our shop uses the park tool thing and I have personally never used it because I went to engineering school and that shit doesn't make sense to me lol. Like if you can successfully straighten a derailleur with that tool you are just lucky. It's faster to just remove the hangar and press it in a vice or something
I agree with you, i think it's a good design. SRAM is a company that alternate hot and cold. I would not be surprised if it's a genuinely better solution.
Weird. The sram family of brands is very good at spares. RockShox vs Fox for example, or Quarq spares and upgrade paths. Also very good. Sram brakes can be rebuilt too. SRAM have a technical centre with people on phones to speak too. Quite amazing these days actually. Their service database is extensive, in many languages and has lots of videos freely available to the public. The Shimano ones meanwhile are locked away under the trade only Shimano TEC site. But hey 🤷♂️
I see all the comments of " I wouldn't upgrade to this groupset yada yada" Sram don't care because you aren't Sram's target market. No b screw, no limit screws, ease of setup, it's all for the benefit of Specialized, Santa Cruz, Trek et al. How much faster, née cheaper will it now be to assemble a bike at the factory , ie less labour bigger profit margin, economy of scale. Shimano will be worried, why will an oem now choose a shimano gruppo over Sram ??
@@Mapdec Agreed . Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Mtb owners are much more likely to mix and match parts from different groupsets and even manufacturers, than roadies who often upgrade a complete groupset on a dapper frame..
I’m glad to hear a positive outlook on it from a mechanic. It is honestly refreshing 😂
Thanks.
I could't agree more.
There we go, finally a calm, professional and independent take on Srams transmission 👌 Keep up the good work 👍 Would love to see an in depth video when your team gets their hands on the new stuff.
Thanks. We have something lined up, but it will take time to get to us.
GC Performance video also has the same opinion. He could not compliment SRAM enough of the work they have put into the new groupset including all the videos on their website relating to the set up and maintenance of it. I really like how all the individual parts of the rear derailleur can be replaced and the pulley wheel design is well thought out too.
@@cliveastman6448 yes definitely stoked about that good old fashioned dissamble feature making a comeback
The simplicity of setting up the Transmission is amazing. I'm not a bike mechanic nor would I claim to be. However, the ease of installing the Transmission and "Tuning" it made it so I was able to build my own SB160 from frame up in my basement. I was always intimidated with the whole drivetrain stuff but figured I'd giving it a try. Glad I did. Rides like a dream.
Fantic has a video where they pound on the derailleur and it holds up. Even still shifts ok after getting hit. The video just popped up on my feed. I've never heard if them before.
Have subscribed to your channel. So refreshing to have professional hands on discussions in a cool calm manner (as opposed to the US strident presentations).
Thanks John. Be sure to get involved in the comments. This lot have insane knowledge and just add even more value to my witherings.
Background would be helpful. I didn't see the other videos and have no idea why we jumped straight into rear mech hangars. Guessing the new SRAM stuff is sensitive.. or have they been shipping bent. Dunno.
Ah. There are a lot of other TH-camrs that jumped on the bandwagon immediately after the embargo lifted. I am about 24 hours late to the show. Sorry. I guess this will make sense when you have seen more.
@@Mapdec Yep. It's of tangential interest, I'm a Shimano guy 😀👍Maybe to my detriment. SRAM has good stuff I think?
My whole professional mechanic career I have been working to smooth the difference of tolerances to make a bike work. I have seen my fair share of bikes where the mech hanger sits misaligned on the frame and needs to be bent to compensate in order to have the gears work correctly.
I am not confident that the bike industry can pull off less adjustability and maintain such tight tolerances that eliminating adjustability is possible in the long run.
Only time I have seen a perfectly aligned bike is in the CAD drawings.
Most recently I have seen plenty of Sram UDH bikes with Sram Eagle rear mechs where it's almost impossible to get the top pulley to line up perfectly vertical with the cassette cogs leading to the chain clicking on adjacent cogs. The misalignment is not horizontal aka cable tension, but vertical twisting leaving the top pulley just slightly canted to one side from perfect vertical alignment requiring bending of the mech hanger to compensate.
Also I agree about the derailleur hanger alignment tools. Personally I prefer the Shimano tool for that job, but even that has so much play that you are basically just relying on your eyes and mechanic experience to get the derailleur into functionally correct alignment.
I think we take different approaches. I’ll fit a CNC hanger and check it’s alignment. If it’s out I’ll sort the frame. Usually full of paint, muck or burs. I only start bending things as a temporary fix.
@@Mapdec Taking the extra paint or burrs off is the first step but doesn't always solve the issue completely and then the only solution left is derailleur hanger modification because modifying the frame is more costly and will void warranties. Worst case I have ever seen was a LOOK bike where the hanger sat so crooked on the frame that it would have required a few millimeters of material removal from the carbon drop out to make the alignment correct or alternatively modifying the derailleur hanger to fit the wonky frame.
Of course swapping the frame is always a possibility but you are then basically rolling the dice and hoping for a better specimen. Can work out great or end up worse off in the lottery of bike industry tolerances.
@@Sandzsteedt There will always be outlines. Tonights vid is a good example. I think I would have fixed that frame. Pretty useless to the rider if they need to bend a fresh hanger if they break on out on a ride.
If your hanger is too tough, then it's your frame that's going to take the damage.
Thats not the case in this example. Look the stuff up and think about it again.
Or the modular repairable mech…
@@Nico-jt8ll something's gotta give. if this example is not tough enough for the frame to take damage, then it won't. Have you tested it? I bet not of course...
How many hangars have you broken?
@@sepg5084 th-cam.com/video/i3QzPxdN1e4/w-d-xo.html
First and foremost ....I like the kind of trend, you youtuber challenge or comments each others updates. Hambini, Peak Tourqe and Mapec all have the knowledge to say a thing or more about the tech. By this its become more believable for the user. You need more than the comments from the subscribers. Keep doing this, and don't worry for the serious user to distinguish betw serious exchange or shaming of knowledge. Appreciate your style Mapdec:)
We are all here to learn and share ideas. TH-cam does that on a massive scale.
Nice video. The proof will be on the trail - how many frames get smashed up. Looking forward to H.'s opinion.
As a mechanical engineer myself I have to agree but also disagree. I think you are right when it comes to the alignment aspects. Rear mech alignment tools are definitely no precision instruments and although I think the concept of a properly designed mech hanger still lends itself to better alignment in general (because you can fiddle with it when needed), good enough tolerances on frames for good shifting should be achievable even in the incompetent bike industry.
But SRAM ditching the mech hanger as a whole is just plain stupid and creates more problems than it solves (if there were any the begin with!?). The whole idea of a mech hanger is to be the sacrificial element between two expensive components (frame and derailleur). Introducing a shit load of force with a now super strong mech hanger directly into the frame is just bad engineering and a flawed concept.
As a side note: I might be wrong, but to my knowledge fixing carbon drop outs which got damaged from serrated skewers and knurled end caps is one of the most often repairs done by carbon fibre repair specialist… Ask guys like Luescher Teknik or the guys at carbonbikerepair
Everything you wrote makes sense. Despite being able to replace the sandwich parts that will be alot stiffer, unless they make it of weaker material but judging by their standing on the Rd and swinging bike in reverse from clock down smashing it into a wall it transfers force into the frame. I see cycling media mentions AXS motor moves the Rd i on impact and gets it out, but a regular Rd does that just by the spring.
Isn't there a breakaway built in to the shifter?
@@Raumance the two sadwich plates, yes, but still much stiffer than a properly designed Rd hanger with right amount of flex and proper failsafe. So unless they made it much weaker this won't do, they made it so strong you can stand on it,pu5ting all force into the frame. 😁How does tha t make any sense?
Reality I think is that frames will be more than strong enough for normal situations. There will always be that mega crash. Just a little joke here, but have you seen the price of these things? Islets almost cheaper to replace a swing arm than a rear mech.
@@Mapdec if you can afford that drivetrain, you can also afford replacing carbon frame after every major crash :D
IMHO, the point Peak Torque was making for the alignment tool was nothing to do with the Park tool, instead he was making the point that with the right tool, you can slightly bend the hanger to adjust the derailleur to the alignment it needs to be, to correct sloppy manufacturing of the bike brands. While with this SRAM stuff, you really don't have that option.
Exactly. This seems crazy too to me. I imagine there will be many bikes with shifting issues that you can't fix
The tolerance of that is massive. Something that is very easily fixed. We are not talking points of mm here. That tool will have 1mm of slop in it at least.
@@Mapdec i have the Dag 2.2. Which has that. But I upgraded 3d printed part, cmhPrintedDesigns FlipDAG-2. I can swing the rod away without repositioning the rod it self. Nice way of improving the Dag2.0 but I see Parktool has a Dag3.0 now. But Abbey Hag had great functionality before Parktool did that. But I save some money, I already had dag2.0, so upgraded it.
@@Mapdec if you think that's sloppy you will not like their torque wrenches. The rotating ratchet head tha you install he socket or adapter on has huge play. I can move it in all direction, and the original socket adapter ha splay too, and falls off. So using jus t index finger ptetighten bolt by spinning it won't work, it will come off. But best to use a hex key first then torque wrench anyway. But still that's crazy a put of play. But I have a Jonesway adapter so that has a secure connection with the socket, but can be hard to remove, but on the head it actually is not secure even though, but that's due to undersized square I guess. But original is just crazy.
@@Mapdec Not saying it doesn't. I think Park Tools suck ass personally. What I'm saying, is that using the his or a similar tool it is possible to achieve alignment close enough for everything to function IF you have the alloy hanger. Thereby compensating for the crap tolerances of bike brands. In contrast, with this SRAM version, you can't tweek the alignment using the hanger, you are stuck with a rigid hanger, rigid derailuer that won't work properly if the frame isn't spot on. However existing hanger gives you a chance of achieving enough alignment for proper functionality on those subpar bike frames using an alignment tool (just used Park's because it is widely available, ages are available, and still can get the job done with enough fiddling).
Good debate. We are going full circle. SRAM has done some great engineering -time will tell if there are issues. Having a few fit and light tech editors ride it is one thing but us heavier middle aged men is another....
When mountain bikes transitioned from mass production steel to crappy aluminum - the Alu hangers bent when you farted in that general direction. Bending Alu back is not a great idea other than in emergencies as it is not ductile and cracks. With most steel it was not a big deal. Hence the "Replaceable Derailleur Hanger" was invented by the bike industry to fix the issue they just created by switching to Alu. I know as my 1990 Trek 8000 was useless after the hanger bent. I will not go into work hardening etc.... but it was a big issue. Every time you bend it back - it gets worse. So great point - always replace the Alu hanger. The main idea was to have a weak replaceable point between the mech and frame.
NOW head to 2023 - the reason for the creation of the hanger may or may not exist anymore and has been replaced by the issue of your frame costing more than James Bond's Aston Martin. Peak Torque's main argument of the energy now all going to the frame is still correct. There is no longer a weak replaceable point in the system.
Keep up the good work :)
Check out peak torques video. His points suggest problems to come.
New Bike uploaded, with a T47 BB. Wonder if Hambini has one of these in his armoury 🤞👍
Yes. I have one on my bike.
As someone mentioned previously, loving the polite, informed back and forth between a bunch of professionals. This makes life easier for the rest of us.
But, I'm still on team replaceable mech hangers, just for ease of replacement. At least for now.
Thanks guys
That will probably always be a choice.
@@Mapdec I'm sure you're right.
"sram udh... is a big chunk of metal and youre not really bending that backwards". Watching this 2 days after trailside realignment of udh using 5mm hex and an eye made me smile :)
Good skills.
@@Mapdec and a bit of luck ;) or maybe trek makes exceptionally soft udhs
@@edghaar I have broken 6 hangers in my trek domane in 4 years.
@@Onigure have you replaced it under warranty claim? if not, you definitely should, that's the point of owning trek - it will break, but at least they replace everyting without asking.
sincerley, your (probably not local) trek mechanic ;)
@@edghaar I have and my shop replaced it with no issues. But when the udh breaks and you are under heavy load (I usually climb 25% slopes) you also damage your chain stays, spokes and even the derailleur because of the recoil. I opted for alternatives with no improvement. I think is the vibrations of the aluminium frame and the strenght of the quick release damaging the udh.
Great i don't use a 2014 Fuel Ex anymore, I had to straighten the hanger absurdly many times, as it bent every time I rode the bike. Love My Geometron G1, no such issues, only bend it if bike falls over when I have to bail. I just do some minor adjustments and I got perfect shifting again. But I always have a spare hanger with me. Seems like they nailed the stiffness and flex, bending ability. and it snaps if i get a stick in the spokes, which happen, a thick branch from a pine tree. So my question is how does Sram Transmission handle this type of incident?
I guess it’s just significantly stronger. Also many parts are replaceable
I am curious about the grease, so look forward to hear what you think about it, and which grease it is.
I’ll do an update one day.
Shimano has a patent for a mechanical direct mount RD. But they also have an updated patent for the triple pulley RD from the 80s, but that design has a M6100/m7100/m8100/M9100 style RD design but the cage sits differently, and has 3 pulleys, and cage sit higher up, so you get few mm more clearance. But I don't know if that design is something they are planning on using in the future as a part of a new design or if they abandoned it. But the Rds from the old times were actually a product, but was short lived.
Guess we will find out in a couple of years.
5:15 I swore when they started running serrated skewers on carbon drop outs, that I’d never own one, still don’t, and never will.
Just bought the DAG-2.2, there is some play, but it did the job. It cost me £60 and the Abbey tools one is almost four times that, much as I wanted it, it couldn’t be justified- 100% the right choice for a professional though.
Anyway, I’ll keep an open mind. At the moment I’m thinking that in the event of an impact a replacement hanger is going to be easier to get hold of than parts for a SRAM mech - based on my experience of trying to find basic stuff like b screws for old mechs (x9 I think it was)
Sure. The point is, that it is not a precision instrument to measure the tolerance that Mr Torque was implying was necessary
@@Mapdec agreed, it’s not a precision tool.
As I said in my original comment I still find it hard to source replacement SRAM parts. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places or as a bike shop you have more access than a retail customer, but it puts me off.
Thanks for the thoughtful videos!
I was going to order a Hambini BB but the one I wanted was out of stock so I got a BB Infinite instead. Would be good to see a comparison of the two.
Oh god. Can you imagine the cat fight that would come from that.
@@Mapdec can you imagine how good it would be to watch that cat fight 😂
I like how Sachin is going after Hope to become the top rated BB manufacturer. I think it's because they also come from similar previous employment.
To me it just seems like the transmission line was really designed for e-bikes. My only issue with sram 1x since the first gen xx1 has been the gear steps, their cassettes just don't make sense, and this one doubles down on that by using narrow wide teeth on all cogs, so you're forced to have an even number of teeth on them. This makes the gear step between the smaller cogs huge. I see why they did it, it makes it so yo can shift under much higher load and the cogs are probably stronger too, but this wasn't really something that needed improvement, unless you were riding an e-bike.
Defo designed with eBike in mind. It’s the fastest growing sector. Even faster than gravel. Steps between cogs don’t bother most people. They just adapt, change their cadence by a few rpm.
@@Mapdec My hack is to use Rotor's 12spd cassette. 11-15t you have single tooth jumps. It has larger jumps between the larger cogs, but that's not the area where you're really looking to fine tune your cadence anyway.
2. When we started using replaceable hangers, we introduced fatigue failure into the part, that never used to be there. I generally had to replace the hanger once a year as you could feel the shifting start to get soft, and on inspection you could find micro-cracks in the hanger from the shifting forces.
This new design is well triangulated so should be immune to fatigue failure
You must have some serious problems with shifting technique and cable maintenance to develop these cracks so fast! Either way, new design is still not immune as the material is still aluminium, the limit must be higher though.
@@feedbackzaloop mostly discovered when i worked at a shop, people would come in apparently needing a gear adjustment, and I'd always check the hanger for cracks before I straightened it, cause if I put a tool on it and it broke it was then my fault. But I was riding and racing a lot so it took its toll on my own stuff. Also depends on the hanger design, some of them have really thin sections.
@@galenkehler could then those cracks be rather from previous alignment attempts. Crashes - so common in racing - also take a huge toll, even when you think nothing got damaged.
@@feedbackzaloop not likely, crash damaged hangers tend to be less uniform, whereas the fatigue failures are a series of uniform parallel lines. Although I don't know the whole history of the customers, I do know my own weren't crashed or straightened
@@galenkehler set of parallel lines is just an indicator of bending prevailing over shear and twist. If it happened instantaneously or over time, you have to observe the cross-section, not surface. Fatigue damage also shows striations, but at grannular scale, seen with magnification or very sharp eye only.
Is my thinking wrong:
During a side impact the outside "arm" will pull the through axle in a downward angle and the inside arm will push it in an opposite direction. Since the through axle is stiff the frame will have a small inward flex. Maybe smaller than with a normal well made hanger? On the other hand, will the through axle put stress to the driveside hub bearing during the impact?
We are talking huge numbers here. The sort of impacts where you will be more worried about your own health than the bike. Time will tell, but testing looks like it will take a hell of a hit before anything breaks
@@Mapdec I understood what you said, but since I am not an engineer, I am trying to understand how the forces are applied regardless the magnitude of impact. After I commented I saw an interview of the Sram chief engineer where he says that in case of an impact the load goes to the axle and almost none to the frame.
My 2019 SC Chameleon's proprietary sliding dropouts with integrated RD hanger prevents me from even considering this new tech.... Whew, that was close!
Can i ask what problem they are solving? Hanger is there so frame can survive when something get stuck in R.D. (etc. r.d. get in the spokes after the crash).
Mostly torque from long cages, more technical riders and eBikes. A slightly bent hanger and some torque from a bad shift or big pedal push can destroy a mech.
Love Hambini bottom brackets
I wonder if with the increase in popularity, the prices will drop a bit... I would like one myself :)
I doubt it. But they might not raise as quick
@@Mapdec Hahah, don't destroy my dreams :). I'm glad that the market for decent parts(not just marketing bullshit) is growing.
Finally someone with an objective viewpoint. Watching all the same, tired rants about defending the mech hanger yesterday got really old.
I would not mind testing one if Sram send tme one. But not going to buy that. But I would only do so on a sacrificial frame. So far best electronic option on a budget or at all in my opinion is Archer D1XTRAIL, and now with the new shifter released, Sram battery and DI1 compability as a emergency solution is great. I already have the paddle remote, which had a great feel, great ergonomics, atleast for me. Only complaint is seal on USB can easily be torn off in a crash.
But the new shifter has hot swappable battery. So no more need to get batteries in and out. And you can borrow a AXS battery if you need to too.
For rear derailleur no matter if its low budget build or high end build, Shimano Deore M6100 sgs rear derailleur, shifts smooth, it's cheap. Looks great.
If you want great cassette with low weight and cheaper than Sram Xx1, Shimano XTR go for Garbaruk. You can even go to 11 speed version if you use HG. But they make 12 speed versions for Microspline, XD drive. It works well enough. No complaints under power, nor did I with Deore m5100 cassette, but that's a bit more than double the weight with around 600, but Garbaruk is around 300g. I have it in silver, biggest cog is bolted on, but it's secure.
So I think I have the most cost effective and performance oriented setup, go deor efor price and Garbaruk Cs for weight. But archer d1xtrail if you benefit from the electronic shifting which I do by a great deal, as my thumb misalignment issues are not a problem anymore, with mechanical it could be painful, when thumb misaligns during a shift, while I was pressing the lever. With d1xtrail I don't get any pain nor fatigue, super light action. So I am definitely sticking with that. Despite two D1xtrail shifters failing. But it was repaired under warranty, I have one on its way to them, they repaired one. I knew this was an drawback of electronic shifting so that's why I got two. But so both bikes have it.
Thanks for this very valuable evaluation - I think it's fantastic that we're having such a lively, yet respectful discussion among the cycling community about it. However what I'd really like to hear your opinion about is how the lack of a sacrificial derailleur hanger would pan out for the frame in case of an impact - would the overall added rigidity of the whole system protect the frame or would it lead to a higher chance of a frame cracking?
There are a lot of variables to play out in a state of chaos (crash) it would need a really really big crash. One where the date of your frame is probably least on your mind. Jokingly, it might actually be cheaper to replace a swing arm component than a rear mech 😂
what about compatibility to existing frames??
Unless is has the UDH 👎
Any hope for those who don't have a UDH? Do you think SRAM will come up with an adapter?
highly unlikley. I cant see how that would work at all.
Thanks for answering, most don't bother!
@@Mapdec
Slightly off topic .Do you have any experience of vel wheels ? £500 for a set of carbon gravel wheels seems too good to be true. I’ve noticed they are specced with brass nipples as well .I’m tempted to try them out.
Yes. Is it the sigma house brand? The rims are pretty standard and seem ok. The rest can all be changed out if it goes wrong. You’re getting a set of wheels for the price of one rim from many brands.
Yes , they are the sigma sports brand .I might take a punt on them .If not I’ll go for the dt swiss gr 1600s .Thanks for the speedy reply . First came across your videos during the World Cup . Great to see more people who know what they are talking about giving actual advice and not just delivering a sales pitch.Keep up the good work.
Can we have a link or a bit more information as to where to find the CNC hanger? Thank you in advance.
Pilo from gearmechhanger.com
Well, I've used a DAG-2.2 for years with no issues. The tool is completely tight and provides accurate measurements.
Like with AXS, it’s a nice innovation of the kind which SRAM is good at. If it’s better or worse: let’s wait and see.
I love using AXS but it is not exactly built for repairability! Like my 10 year old 10 speed Campagnolo system is.
SRAM on the other hand seems to deny that the new Eagle even needs repairing. That seems naïve to me.
Umm. How do. They made a massive point about being able to get spare parts and rebuild a mech.
@@Mapdec That sounds cool. I missed that!
yep, modern thru axle hangers do not bend easily, we have a tub of bent and broken rear mtb 12 speed derailleurs as evidence
The bottom bracket is the Phil Wood of the West Midlands.
Struggling to see what problem this solves?
Stiffness with big mechs and high power eBikes
transmission aside that udh is cheaper to replace than paying a pro bike mechanic to bend it back, 12 quid a go for mtb ones
do wonder who will be the first to break their chainstay with those new mechs
Very true
My worry is what will be the availability of older mech hangars or deralieur types in future. I.e. old version of gx etc. Would kill the lifespan of current non udh frames overnight. Potentially contributing to more waste in the industry.
I think brands like Pilio have that covered. They will likely just CNC to order.
@@Mapdec hope so, I've got a Niner emtb and just trying to source their current hangar in the UK is crap, nevermind in future. I'm aware there's third party manufacturers but compared to like a standard Whyte mech the prices are steeper for a bit of cncd metal. Ah well, cycling expensive as it is, bit more won't hurt 😂😅
I think Peak Torque's opinion and speculation is just that...opinion and speculation. He doesn't have the actual transmission and he didn't conduct long-term testing like other channels did. It'll be alright if he just admitted that he's sceptical about the product but that wasn't the case.
I agree with your point that this isn't a gimmick, it's the real deal. I think SRAM has moved in the right direction and it'll be interesting to see how Shimano responds.
He had back tracked now. Pinned a comment on his vid. Hasn’t taken it down though.
@@Mapdec thanks for pointing this out to me. Indeed he has. I saw that he's just released another video on the subject and I'm assuming he's re-evaluated his views. I'll be watching it later. 👍👍👍
WEll one downside is you need another full on drivetrain change, spendy. But yeah it's very nice. Not everyone has bikes with UDH hangers(my 3 bikes have them luckily).
Nice. Future proof already
5:08 Carbon drop outs is absurd. It's a bad idea, and carbon experts say so too.
Alu frames will handle it better, even for decades of riding. But carbon gets worn powdered.
1:34 Who is a hag? 😛 The Hag seems too be popular, all Abbey stuff seems to be. They sell quite fast, I see sometimes even on Abbey's website they get out of stock. But great there are several retailers that sell their tools in Europe.
Peak torque did a great review on this from an engineering perspective rather than the cycling media sucking up BS
No it wasn’t. He missed various details.
@@gweflj awaiting your video to put things straight in that case
@@tombola4046 It looks like Peak Torque already did.
Like the honest video title)
Also, with this release I'm more interested in the cassette - everyone seems to overlook those changes.
True. Harder wearing, better shifting. Win win
/// unior has a creat hanger tool, simillar to abbey
Just another of many reasons Hate sram. Paul, the companies can’t get a simple BB hole correct, what makes you think they’ll be able to get a derailleur mount right? And To a wheel, freehub and cassette they often don’t even make? I’ll be waiting for your first video on one of these bikes when they come in your shop and the hanger is out of alignment and see what your recourse will be to fix it.
Aye. It’s not a fine tolerance like a BB though. They have been making straight mech hanger mounts forever. Biggest issue is the weak ass hangers made from the softest alu that wouldn’t cause uri Geller any problems. If a DAG can fix it, the tolerance is massive compared to a BB.
Skewer being rough on the dropouts didn’t matter because we didn’t use the dropout face AS A DATUM POINT. Whereas in this case the faces are key and have to be to a high specification…
But we did. The inner dropout face was part of the alignment stack and did get chewed up on some frames
They don’t need to be high spec. SRAM frame fit spec PDF will be out soon.
1. As a non-crashy person, I'll gladly take the years of 24/7 shifting performance over some hypothetical crash situation. My first three bikes back in the 90s and 2000s had solid hangers and they were fantastic, never failed and shifted much better. (And survived many crashes)
I have to say that in 20 years of mountain biking i have never bent a hanger. I guess there is always 'what if' but the chances are that during the service life of the new Sram derailleur the chance it will be damaged beyond repair is actually very low.
I bent 3 last year... Previous 5 years 2 hangers. It happens if you do any technical riding.
Sure. Some frames are significantly better than others. My old Cannondale seemed to bend weekly. My current Pipedream is proper solid.
I've had my Spectral 29 for four months, I've bent it twice riding technical terrain. UDH too!
33 years. 1 bent. When I fell over on the right because I couldnt get unclipped fast enough.😅Actually riding never.
I do have a few questions, and some thoughts:
1. Why using Sram’s UDH (Universal Derailleur Hanger) instead of the stock hanger solves hanger problem?
2. Being a Sram proprietary design, how ‘universal’ this UDH could be?
3. The Transmission system did not do away the derailleur hanger, but just hiding it with a beefed up outer plate (B-body)?
I think derailleur hanger is becoming the next battlefield, after decades of Bottom Bracket ‘Standards’, after another Standards.
Cool.
1. Because we waste hours of our life tracking down random hangers from a range of 1000s. Some are not made anymore, some are so weak and pathetic that owners carry spares. The UDH is actually a very good design and I would welcome it’s mass adoption.
2. There is no licence on the UDH. It is free to use. Unlike Shimano Microspline for example.
3. I guess that’s one way of looking at it.
Pinion gear box anyone?
I guess Shimano might try and launch their own similar design. It would only serve to tie the owner of a bike to a brand of groupset. I can see this happening. It already does. You can’t fit a Bosch motor to a Shimano eBike mount etc
@@Mapdec
Thanks heaps!
I’m just thinking, in the lifetime of a frame (and hanger), when in once (or twice) the hanger has gone beyond repair, it’s probably about time for a new frame too? As I don’t belief that all impacts only bull-eyeing onto derailleur and its hanger and just missed the frame, and/or the chain stays? Having said, I’m aware that derailleur is hung protruding on road bike though, but not on mtb derailleur, as seen on shimano mtb derailleurs, they are all recessed not standing proud, so ...
130 dollars for the cheapest chain, also remember the SRAM chains are shit.
My mileage varies in that. Having a surprisingly good and long lasting experience of flat top chains
The german journal „Tour“ tested (3-2023) roadbike chains for wear and far the worst have been SRAM Force/Rival/Red (Force even ripped after 20hrs). Shimano and Campa won with a big gap.
Agreed. The only chains Ive ever snapped. And multiple times. KMC or Shimano for me.
BSA bb is coming back, like it or not! The local Trek dealer sold off their facing tool, and still had the bb tap sets! Hadn't used them for 10 years. Wound up facing with machinist bluing and file! "The bikes they sell don't need facing" Yeah right! Even outboard bearing bbs need facing once in a while! They need to get ready for aluminum inserts to disbond too. Neutral on the SRAM topic. Maybe it's part of a solution, but unless widely adopted, it'll be the next marketing failure.
They sold their facing tool….. wtf. It’s a staple of every bike shop. An essential.
the Abbey is quite OK in my book ...
Cool
So true. Our shop uses the park tool thing and I have personally never used it because I went to engineering school and that shit doesn't make sense to me lol. Like if you can successfully straighten a derailleur with that tool you are just lucky. It's faster to just remove the hangar and press it in a vice or something
Floppy stick never did it for me either.
Literally don't care, they cant even stop the front mechs ghost shifting and or chain drops 😂
I agree with you, i think it's a good design. SRAM is a company that alternate hot and cold. I would not be surprised if it's a genuinely better solution.
I believe this new tech will eventually prove problematic in destroying frames unless the mounting point is made of metal
That’s great because SX & NX SUCK
So bad.
Never touch sram again no spares and customer service is rubbish
Weird. The sram family of brands is very good at spares. RockShox vs Fox for example, or Quarq spares and upgrade paths. Also very good. Sram brakes can be rebuilt too. SRAM have a technical centre with people on phones to speak too. Quite amazing these days actually. Their service database is extensive, in many languages and has lots of videos freely available to the public. The Shimano ones meanwhile are locked away under the trade only Shimano TEC site. But hey 🤷♂️
I see all the comments of " I wouldn't upgrade to this groupset yada yada" Sram don't care because you aren't Sram's target market. No b screw, no limit screws, ease of setup, it's all for the benefit of Specialized, Santa Cruz, Trek et al. How much faster, née cheaper will it now be to assemble a bike at the factory , ie less labour bigger profit margin, economy of scale. Shimano will be worried, why will an oem now choose a shimano gruppo over Sram ??
Direct mount is the new PF BB
Aye. The OEM market is where the big battles are fought
@@Mapdec Agreed . Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Mtb owners are much more likely to mix and match parts from different groupsets and even manufacturers, than roadies who often upgrade a complete groupset on a dapper frame..