To share a personal anecdote: my grandmother was horrible. For decades she emotionally abused and manipulated my dad and uncle their entire lives and it carried into my siblings and cousins. Her physcial and emotionally abuse on my grandfather caused him to get dementia. She made my mom and aunt felt small, she threw a knife at my cousin bc she didn't stack the plates correctly, and said I was demonic and going to hell because I liked metal music, that I wasn't her grandson unless I stoped listening to it. Her abuse was so horrible that many of us completely cut her out of our lives because the pain she bore us was too much. When she about to die she started getting mental health help and we learned she had Borderline Personality Disorder and was of a long line of abuse from her side of the family. She confided in my dad that she knew she was a horrible mother and asked "I was a horrible grandmother, wasn't I?". He came to us once and said he saw real change in her and couldn't believe how much the medication and therapy did. However, we also learned that the indigenous people she lived near absolutely loved her, she had done so many wonderful things for them. She treated them with care, kindness, generosity. We were shocked by their stories, "how could this be our grandma? Why wasn't she this way for us? why did they never see the demon? How could she treat us so horribly but treat them with such kindness?" It's impacted me quite profoundly that I no longer judge people wholly by one perspective. We are all different to different people, we're "the toxic partner" to one relationship, and the gentle kind soul with such care and compassion to another. A great author with wonderful positive ideas of humanity and the world can also do horrible things, and the kinds most wonderful author can write about sexual abuse, violence, and the brutalities of humans as if they themselves were committing the acts. All this is to say, Neil Gaiman may or may not have done those things, and while I truly hate it if he did, I can also enjoy his works (especially the post-controversy stuff) regardless, because I still get a lot out of them. I'm always skeptical of how someone is at relationships if they've had multiple marriages over many decades, I don't dismiss their art, but I also won't be surprised if it comes out later they aren't great people to date/marry/love, bc yeah, that checks out... hence the multiple marriages. Anyway, human beings are complicated. Even those who cause an incredible amount of pain can also create a huge amount of good and kindness. I think it's healthy to not put blankets over everyone, but approach each person and situation individually. If someone wants to stop reading Gaiman, they are most welcome to, I won't begrudge their choice, similarly I hope they won't begrudge others who decide they can separate the art from the artist --- or the human from the celebrity (or the abusive grandmother from the community caregiver).
I agree. I think it’s the beautiful irony of humanity - that very flawed and imperfect creatures can, in a sense, still be capable of creating something perfect; whether we’re talking writing, music, art, dance, acting, or in your example, taking some action that has a positive effect on someone else.
Great story thanks for sharing. People on the internet are quick to call others monsters even if whatever they did "wrong" does not validate such words. It's enough if you're over 30, male and have a career. They're just waiting for reasons to rip you apart. If there aren't any, they'll start making things up and create rumors which then others will repeat elsewhere. Like nobody is able to live by the standards we're trying to create online, and eventually people will realize this. We all make mistakes, horrible and vile mistakes and the key here is to take personal accountability and be better in the future. You can't fix the past. But when I say personal, I mean personal. Not via statements through social media. Celeb or no, they don't owe us anything. Just as much as you have the right to your personal life, so do they. Regardless of how much you loved certain book or film by them. We don't own anyone just because they are online. Internet culture is still quite young and has changed a lot within 10 years. Sooner or later it'll change to a more balanced discussion. We can't be this black and white forever.
31:31 "Me buying a book sends them 3 dollars" but the thing is, if EVERYONE thinks this way, then that keeps problematic living people RICH. That's the problem. The problem is when the masses think what they do doesn't matter or doesn't affect something, when it DOES.
Letting the most talented assholes write books is that really that bad a system? If you look at someone like Rawlings she kind of created the YA genre which im not sure was a good thing. BUT it probably increased the total size of a book genre by a significant amount. If she had gotten boycotted and never finised the potter series maybe the whole book marketplace would be 50% smaller half of all authors right now would be without a job. Cant help feeling if you stop the next Shakespeare from writing books ur hurting humanity
@@soggz9190nobody is saying they can’t write. I just have no interest reading books written by awful people. Yeah, apparently Ender’s game is amazing but I just have no interest in reading it after hearing the author’s views
@@willpi6413 Genuine question, I have your view that I don't like supporting "bad" authors or people, but would you read a book by a "bad" author if you bought it used? Since buying it used would not contribute to supporting the author or would you still boycott that author completely?
Look, he is a LIVING author. Probably 50% of his fanbase is responding to HIM, as a person; they LIKE him and want to support his work. He has spent multiple decades crafting a persona, a persona that people really like. HE has not separated himself from his work, and it is going to be REALLY hard for his fans to now do so. This was a hugely successful strategy for him; but I think we can all acknowledge that it has drawbacks, such as when people no longer like, respect or admire you as a person. I don't think he will be able to come back from this...and I think it it will have a lasting effect on his legacy as well.
Only about 10 minutes in or so, but I gotta stop and say this. If you’re wondering how easily you CAN separate the art and artist, try reading something your friend wrote. So incredibly hard to put it out of mind. Way easier to do with someone you don’t know, but still, it’s always there.
I think the discourse around “separating the artist from the art” has more nuance. To me there’s a difference between separating the art from the artist as it comes to certain situation. So, there’s a difference between an author not liking black people (Dr.Seuss), being partial in feminism (Virginia Woolf), not liking the gays (Frank Herbert) and then there’s other author that take it a step too far like we’re seeing with Neil Gaiman which I just don’t think is acceptable in any way shape or form. I think we shouldn’t give Gaiman that grace of separation of art from the artist or he’ll probably never learn. Then there’s the whole thing about an author being dead or alive and how that contributes to their financial success and all that. I think if people still want to support Gaiman (which I disagree with) then it should be in a way that doesn’t benefit him in any way. Perhaps, libraries or second hand will do the trick.
@@DONWASABIJUAN not really comparing the people. Just trying to make the point that I don’t really think it’s possible to have absolutely no biases on a read if you know anything about the author.
I read very horny kink-centered stories written by my friends on a regular basis and it has zero impact on my relationships with them or how I see them as people.
If the artist is dead, I can separate the art from the artist cos they ain't gunna see the money I spend. But a living artist? No. Same with another big but shxtty author, I will never spend anything related or towards them ever again.
Interesting talk. I think what makes it hard for some people to separate the art from the artist in this case is that he was actively in contact with fans. His work attracts people who often are misunderstood and he connected with them and shared his own stories on social media and in emails. He wasn't a distant person on a book jacket.
I just hit play but I love how genuine you guys are. You do not shy away from controversial topics or giving your opinions in general. It’s such fresh air in these times where most people online just want to pander
I’m a pretty firm believer in separating the art from the artist for one of the reason you two brought up, it’s a greater loss for me in most cases than a benefit to the creator. Admittedly it’s incredibly hard to put that in practice with visual mediums. Like “THATS THE FACE I HATE THAT FACE” 😂 great takes and great video as always fellas. Also fun sidebar. My mom got cussed out by Dave Matthews and I was never allowed to listen to the Dave Mathew’s band growing up LOL
This is a topic I have always felt conflicted about, and I loved hearing your guys' genuine and open discussion of it. I actually think you two offered some very refreshing takes, because most of the circles I run in are very strict into the "just cancel them, you can't separate art from artist". For me as a book reviewer, I do try to avoid promoting problematic authors, especially because I think there are so many smaller, marginalized (often indie) authors who tell stories that are way more deserving of love and attention than, say, a JK Rowling or Sarah J. Maas. But at the same time, I can very easily separate art from artist, especially when their work brings me so much joy. However, idk if I can still listen to a Gaiman audiobook and not get the creeps now... which sucks because the man is a damn good narrator 🤣🥲
Appreciate your thoughts on this topic! Really sorry to hear this about Neil Gaiman. One example of this for me is H.P. Lovecraft. I LOVE the worldbuilding and ideas in his stories, but I also fully recognize that the guy was legitimately racist. But for me, I feel comfortable being able to fixate on the mythos of his universe while acknowledging that he was a very flawed individual with a bad worldview.
Agreed that it depends. Sometimes you should abstain not because you will individually make a big splash, but because it matters to you. Also, it's valid to consider whether you are giving them money to them or not. Whether they're alive or dead, or whether you could get a used book instead of new and paying them.
When it comes to separating art from the artist, I'm a firm believer that it's up to the individual to decide. That's up to you and your own convictions. For me, I can do it depending on what the artist did. If the artist is just a not great person, I can still enjoy their work. But if they are the type to go out of their way to harm other people, then I can't do it, because their art is what gives them the money and power, to have access to harm people, JK Rowling and Bill Cosby, are easy examples.
Personally, I would never buy any new material of JK Rowling, but I’m also not going to get rid of my Harry Potter books that I’ve had since childhood - ya know? Like that money has long ago been spent and because of the childhood nostalgia that the series gives me, I’ll always be able to separate it from her and her views!
If you follow the line of thinking that a novel and writing is general is an expression of self (which I think everyone would likely partly agree on), then I think you can say that like an authors work is the good parts of them. They wouldn’t exactly put in the parts they don’t like about themselves. We all have some skeletons in our closet and some things we’re trying to change, so one act defining how there art is perceived seems immature. But if the act is directly related to the art that does change things.
I can separate the art and the artist if it is unrelated. I have no problem reading O.S. Card for example, because I’m there for the story. Not him. However ppl like Cosby is different because his “art” can no longer be believed. Idk if that makes sense
The problem seems to be that he doesn't consider himself to be guilty because he has a very particular - and totally wrong - idea about what consent is.
I can usually separate art from the artist. Also, if you want to not support authors you can get their book second hand from people who bought it before whatever big thing came out. I find I'm having a hard time separating them when it's an actor or singer. Because they are very physically present when consuming their art.
The hard hitting topics. I’ll say only this-at the end of the day, we humans are the perfect examples of imperfection. I accept people who aren’t able to separate the art from the artist because their experiences are their own. Just as I accept those who are able to switch off what the author has done. And as mentioned in other comments, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. Brave discussing the topic, although I am sure for you, it was just another week 😂
This is something everyone have to judge in their own. For all those quoting "innocent until proven guilty" I want to remind, that this rule applies in the law. In a regular social life - not necessarily. People are getting ostracized and condemned in their social circles based on rumours and unproven allegations all the time. It has been like that since forever. The only difference is that nowadays we have twitter (and angry twitter mob). Now, in this particular case I don't have a problem, cause even though I was trying, I wasn't able to get to like Neil Gaiman's writing. But I know that when an artist you like turns out to be, so to speak, very far from ideal, it will likely leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter what you do. Anyway guys, interesting discussion, as usual. Keep them coming!
I'm almost afraid to leave this comment, but here goes. I could never really support Neil Gaiman because he and his family are long-time scientologists. Neil may have gotten out of the cult more recently, but he was definitely in it for a long time. I also can't support Tom Cruise because of that. I can ignore almost any other issue with an artist, but scientology is a human trafficking cult and the wealthy supporters of it should be ashamed. In this one issue, I can't separate the artist from the art. I've read too many horrific memoirs from ex members to be able to ignore it.
@thellama3239 I hear you. But... there's just too much stuff to put in this comment. I will just say that I feel how I feel and I can't help it. Maybe if you did as much research about it as I have, you would understand. I usually don't mention this to other people because there's just too much info to explain in a short time.
From what I've read about scientology this actually makes me think the allegations have something to do with him leaving, given the track record of the scientology church. 😅
Not to comment early and miss the context, but I don’t fully agree with Rich’s opening statements. Open relationships and age gaps aren’t any of the issue here. People, even famous people should be allowed to be weird. If two or more adults WANT to engage in ‘degenerate behaviour’ that shouldn’t be something to string them up by. People like weird stuff, and the more that get shunned for it, the less it gets talked about, the problems will be swept under the rug. The issue here has to be exclusively in the communication between the ones who claim assault and the one who claims it was consensual. It doesn’t look good for Neil Gaiman, to be honest. And I don’t feel confident in sticking up for the man, but there’s still a chance he’s telling the truth. If he was in that situation and didn’t know they were unconsenting, then that’s the conversation that needs to be had. That’s how it’s prevented from being repeated. By discussing the dynamics of those engagements and how to ensure everyone is comfortable when they’re initiated. Not discussing how distasteful it sounds to have such an age gap or to be in an open relationship.
@@RalphNC09 Translation= “women calling out men for their degenerate behavior is a CANCER to society. We should’ve stayed in the past where men were allowed to do as they please and it’s A-OKAY. 👌🏾 “ You’re different and I don’t mean that in a good way.
I agree w a lot said. A Stephen King character in IT says that “if art one day became all and only about politics, he’d k!ll himself”. A caveat: What about the artist’s life story enhancing the reading experience? Frankenstein is a fantastic text. Love it to death. And maybe if you’re suuuuper perceptive you’ll be able to get all the feminist, Galvanist, Romantic, regency, motherhood, Industrial Revolution, and theological readings in one go. Most likely, you won’t unless you immerse yourself in the fears and hopes of the time period and of Mary Shelley’s life. Sure. You don’t have to! You’ll still get a great story of Victor and his monster and their pushes and pulls that lead to tragedy… but the text imo is elevated and registered in so many more dimensions that you just wouldn’t get if you didn’t know the context. Do I think every piece of art you encounter you should treat with this much care? No. That’s unrealistic. But I think if something speaks to you, do immerse yourself in it fully and learn what were the circumstances that allowed for its birth. 😊 Edit: AP Canavan has a fantastic video about to what extent and IF authorial intent shoild trump reader interpretation. Highly recommend looking into it and I found his perspective as a literature professor to be very interesting.
Artists who claim to never do any meaning in their works have meaning in their works all the time. Nearly all art is political by nature. You are a person in a system, and your thoughts and feelings are curved by said system. You can actually learn a lot about the time period and political climate by looking at virtually any art piece from any time. German folklore's politics dealt with how impoverished their society was, so their stories reflect children learning harsh lessons.
That's actually a really good point. I suppose that even if the author is a not so great person, there is always a chance that their life story can enhance their writing. After all, people aren't just good or bad. We're more nuanced than that. You can meet a man who donates money to charity and cheats on his wife in the same day. A gross writer will likely have some good characteristics that will bleed into their work, and you never know what kind of effects those good things will have. Perhaps a writer arrested for SA wrote a story about parenthood and love, and reading that story helped a person fix a broken relationship with their mother. Does that make the writer a good person? No, but it does show that their work still has value despite their immoral character.
As far as authors go, I was on the fence as to whether I should read Terry Goodkind, but then I learned about his disparaging remarks about Robert Jordan as Jordan was going through the illness that ended up killing him, and then further research/commentary leans toward Goodkind taking A LOT from Wheel of Time to create Sword of Truth. Now, I'll never read anything from him. I try my best to separate author from their works, but making fun of someone that has a likely fatal illness/disease is too far.
Damn so much Wisdom bud, I couldnt have gotten that point across with better words, the world needs more people like you. Is easy to judge is hard to understand...
I know it was a throw away line in the video. Not the point of the video. But, I'm a politics nerd in addition to being a book nerd. Individual votes matter in a lot of ways. For example, the 2016 presidential election was ultimately super close even though 139 million votes were cast. It came down to a total of 80,000 votes in three states. In 2017, control of the Virginia state legislature was literally decided by the flip of a coin because the election for one state legislator was a tie and the outcome of that race determined which party would be in control. But, beyond these nail biters, research shows that regular voting is an accurate predictor for both an individual's likelihood to take on higher levels of civic engagement as well as the health, transparency and effectiveness of local governments.
I know this is a nuanced topic and people have a lot of thoughts and high emotions……but I just need to say that I separated this podcast from the podcasters.
There isnt a right or wrong answer. If you like his work keep reading. If you love his books and hate him now and throw away every book you have of his, that's fine too. I personally dont see why it matters what someone's personal life has to do with the enjoyment you get from their work. But whatever. What people shouldn't do is hating on people for continuing to like his books, or hating on them for no longer being able to enjoy his books. It's just a personal choice.
I can read whatever I want since I don't believe the internet has the right to tell me what to do based on gossip. Trial by social media is disgusting.
Of course you can separate the art(product) from the artist(creator), just because someone is not a saint in his personal life, it doesn't mean he cannot create something amazing. A lot of artists in the history were jerks but it doesn't diminish the quality of their work. I don't have to like the artist as a person to like their work (and usually I couldn't care less what they do outside of their products).
for the sake of the victims, you should boycott the art as much as you can. buy used books. shoot, pirate their books LOL. It's hard for the victims not to feel like "the world doesn't care that my assailant did this to me" when he continues to thrive.
At no time before the 21st century, you could know about the real life of an artist, writter, musician, actor, or the like of. I never knew a thing about the bad behavior of many of them and I could not care less about it. Nowadays it seems much more important to decide if Tolkien was much more racist or less racist than his fellows of the same country and age than to actually read him. What a waste of time (not talking about this video, it is ok to discuss the topic in general)
I second the recommendation of Tár. It’s so good. Lydia Tár is one of the most fascinating and complex characters I’ve ever seen created for film, Cate Blanchett was incredible In general I think people are complex and allegations of bad or even criminal behavior are disappointing in any artist. It doesn’t necessarily stop me from enjoying the art unless it’s really bad or is reflected somehow in the art. The problem with some allegations like Gaiman is there’s a lot of grey area and differing accounts and it’s hard to find the line of what’s true and what’s not. I do believe it shows he has bad character and other issues, but I really cannot be sure on all the specific details of what happened
I guess I'm missing a bit of a discussion on you guys as or any person with a platform potentially refraining from (or not) talking or popularizing works of polarizing artists after known facts.
I find this topic fascinating. Neil gaiman affected me deeply with his writing and i adore all of the stories he has written. However, like you guys said, assault allegations being true or not, his actions are STILL icky. I feel like i am struggling with that a lot. Because this sort of behaviour is not something i support. Ive sort of settled on feeling less guilty pirating his books. Lol
Harry potter is a great exapmle to use here. I can still watch the films, they are a collaborative project from the minds and passion of loads of people. The books are a direct product of the individual, i find it very hard to separate that.
@@thellama3239 Except she doesn’t “just have an opinion” - that’s not the issue people have; it’s the misuse of her ENORMOUS platform to defame people(in particular, accusing literal biological women of being trans when that is just verifiably false, as in the case of Imane Khelif). It’s extremely irresponsible behaviour, especially considering how Khelif comes from a country where being transgender is very much illegal - so Rowling knowingly spreading misinformation about her gender identity could potentially have serious repercussions for this female boxer.
I am Italian. Regarding Mussolini. We study Fascism in school and most normal people talk about him in negative terms and are happy he ended up the way it did. We celebrate anti fascism every year even though far right wing movements are rising (and won the last elections in Italy). Mussolini is not tabu in Italy as Hitler might be in Germany.
My problem is that I feel like these days people stop interacting with someone’s work for stuff that doesn’t warrant it to me. Like there are some people I just wouldn’t interact with something they made because of their views, but my bar is higher then a lot of other people’s
I stopped reading his books a while ago for other issues so easy one for me. And I have to say this is where pirating books doesn't feel that bad. You still get to enjoy the story you like without giving money to someone you don't like. Now, this isn't an insult I swear but... you're American and men. Discussions over women's rights over there are not really the standard because of the ideologies that you might not believe in. But they have you being very nervous about saying the "wrong thing" so people don't attack you. But educate yourselves because you're smart guys and will get it quickly. Defending women's rights isn't being anti anything. Other than anti the oppression women suffer. If you read what those who people tell you are witches said, you might find it all makes a lot of sense. Try it out.
@@lkay398they basically said that supporting Gaiman is fine since your money is a drop in the bucket. But they’re giving their opinions on a situation where a woman got sexually assaulted by a guy. Having 2 guys give their opinion on it is worthless. I’d like to hear more diverse takes on this issue and feel this isn’t even these two’s place to talk about it.
Always great discussions! I agree that generally you should separate art from creator, unless their work is so infused with the thing you dislike that it's impossible to do so. That said, I understand if someone can't separate them. If I found out one of my fav authors was a pedo, for example, I'd have a hard time ignoring that while reading the book. Everyone has a line, as you said. However, I also think we should be properly informed when we draw that line. When Rowling was accused of all this horrible stuff, I did some research. I read her words in context, looked at her behaviour, and made my decision based on that, not on what some irate tiktok or x influencer or even actor in her own films said.
I'm generally a "separate the art from the artist" person on a case-by-case basis. In the case of Neil Gaiman, he's an author whose work I haven't fully gotten into yet. I can't help but think about these gross allegations, particularly the non-consensual nature if them, and not think that sone of his characters weren't somehow wrapped up in him being okay with that. That said, voting with my wallet by not buying his wirks isn't going to do anythjng to him financially. It's not so much that I don't want to support his stuff financially, it's that I feel gross about about potentially reading or experiencing his stories in general. I think this will fade away for me over time, but I can't read/experience for now.
I find it funny how many people are shocked by the allegations against Neil Gaiman and the things he's openly admitted to. Like, have you read his short stories?
That’s not really a good indicator of anything though. An author having something in their work doesn’t mean they practice that thing or want to practice or are involved in said thing. Sometimes, it’s a mode of exploration more so than stating it as a fact or fantasy of theirs.
@@groofay nice to know you’re in agreement with me. But yea, I don’t like when people do that. Sometimes, it’s a way of exploration is all, nothing to do with how they actually think or feel. That being said, George has written some good books most people love and adore but we still don’t know him as a person. I think to attribute innocence to him (as most of us did with Gaiman) isn’t the best course of action. Let me make it clear that I don’t think that we should condemn George but attributing innocence to him just because we like what he’s written isn’t ideal. We shouldn’t blindly follow people who’ve made impact in any aspect of our world just because we like what they’ve done (if that makes sense) healthy skepticism and all that. That said, I love fire and blood. I’d like to get to dunk &egg but not so much for the main series (ASOIAF) but only because it’s not completed. I hope you understand what I’m saying in that we shouldn’t project innocence unto an author, politician, or any great person though that doesn’t mean that they should be condemned until something comes out against them.
Sometimes it really depends on how certain author's "problems" relate to you on a personal level. For example, I'm from Ukraine and I would never read a book of an author who supports russia. Even authors who are dead. I just can't physically bring myself to read the works of dostoevsky or tolstoi, and I don't care how important they are considered to be in literature. Especially when you understand the whole tragedy of russian cultural occupation. It upsets me when people still romanticize russian culture, but I also understand that they haven't experienced the same, so they just can't feel the same way about it.
For me, the line is what is my dollar doing. In the case of Rowling, my Dollar is going directly to her and then directly to anti-trans funds and efforts so buying harry potter stuff is near identical to putting money into ant-trans funds. Gaimen on the other hand is gross. And you can make the argument that any monetary support can provide avenues that allows him to further possible grossness but ultimately his action have very little to do with his income outside of the abstract. Case by case basis.
You use a lot of Nazi German references here. Let me add one more: when asked why those who lived next to the camps did nothing against Hitler, many of them stated they were apolitical. Of course that isn't true, and in reality, many of them supported him. To them he was a strong leader that stood up for the German people. But how would anyone know the difference between those that supported him and those that just stood by? They wouldn't because the outcome of either view was the same. To this day when I hear someone stating it doesn't matter to protest, I think of that. I think of the Stolpersteines throughout Europe that mark the cost. There are plenty of books out there, and plenty of ways to discuss books and topics without supporting bad actors. Harry Potter wasn't written after JK Rowling read every book about boy wizards that came before. Nor has every great book written in the style of Lord of the Rings reached anywhere near the popularity. My take - love what you love, draw your lines where you want, but remember that the line between support and silence is thinner than we think.
This avoids the issue that legal institutions provide little protection for survivors of sexual assault, and there is a movement to provide an extralegal process for removing high-level perpetrators from positions of power. If you put priority on having fun and escaping reality rather than acknowledging how you’re contributing to that sexual abusive man’s position of power by featuring them in your book club at the height of these allegations then you’re part of the problem. “The narcissism of small differences lead to the most boring conformity,” is a quote from Tár, a character who committed sexual misconduct from a position of power trying to rationalize her own transgressions and how people should perceive her legacy. Using that quote to support your decision to continue reading Neil Gaiman means you’ve missed the point of that movie.
The only time I wasn't able to separate the art from the artist was recently with the Drake "Allegations". His music tends to be very personal, so listening to the songs where he talks about women in a certain way, it's kind of stomach churning to think that those women could have been older girls... 🤮. Every other time, I've been fine, especially with fiction authors. Most of them are very good at not letting their personal views affect their character. The ones I don't like, I'll just borrow their books or use a credit, but I won't stop reading them unless they get bad at writing.
Imo, your voter matter. Imagine in the UK, this year center/left won because the right didn't go to vote in numbers. "Labour gained over 200 seats but their vote share increased by less than two percentage points to 34%. The Conservatives saw their vote share plummet by 20 points to 24% and the party lost 251 seats". Also, worked for Tesla for 5 years. I love Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink and Neuralink. I used to like Elon Musk, now I despise him even though I recognise the contribution to tech he has. He used to be a bit out of line but few years ago his brain has started going into some very dark places and now he actively tells people to vote for people who don't believe climate change is real. Us, consumers can change our mind regarding a person and can separate artwork from its creator.
Imo, I am ok with consensual relationships between adults even if the age gap is big. Abuse and grooming are another thing. I don't know which one of these applies to each situation and I try not to judge.
@@Rumham729 no, we're talking about proof. Innocent until *proven* guilty. If there is no proof, why would you judge someone as immoral and potentially cancel them?
@@nyxian_gridbecause he's openly admitted to some super gross stuff. Being a multimedia superstar and pushing yourself onto a woman 40 years younger than yourself on the day you hired her to watch your kids is messed up
I was hoping for a thoughtful discussion here, but i've had to stop pretty early on. Calling open relationships and sex between consenting adults with a large age gap "degenerate" is not remotley appropraite, and also not remotely relevent. If you don't like open relationships, don't be in one. The only issue that matters here is consent. Everything else is totally irrelevent. A 20 year old is an adult and has the freedom to have consenting sex with any other adult regardless of age. If you don't want to have sex with an adult who's a lot older or younger than you, don't. Moral outrage over it makes the actual issue of consent harder to deal with. In calling consual behaviour between adults "degenerate" you change the from consent to what you personally find icky. It also implies that non-monogamy and relationships with large age-gaps are inherently non-consensual, which is both untrue and riddled with implicit anti-lgbtq bigotry (something I am sure was unintended here).
Consent is a very FLIMSY framework to base a sexual decision on. It doesn’t make sense when you think a little more about it. It’s a blurry line. A sexual relationship should be more than through the framework of consent.
@@trebucheguevara1052 for me it's not the age gap that bothers me the most (although I still think it's icky), it's the fact that he's a world-famous celebrity who was employing at least one of the women that's accusing him. A clear power imbalance in my mind
Exactly, these guys' views on this kind of thing are so judgemental and prudish. The SA allegations are the issue, not his consensual open relationships.
@@emosongsandreadalongs that's part of the consent issue. Power imbalances of that sort can create environments where one person feels they can't say no. That's not separate from my point about consent, that IS my point about consent. My comment was more about their seeming distgust at consensual open-relationships and relationships with large age gaps, than it was about whether Gaiman is guilty of sexual assault.
I haven't started the video yet, but I think the topic is really interesting. Can you separate the art from the artist? For me, it's really hard to do that. When I read, I'm constantly trying to get into the author's headspace, I want to appreciate their imagination and creativity. But actively knowing a story came from the disgusting mind of someone, is a little too intimate and weird for me.
I get it that they were of age, but to me it’s insane how society will lose it about a 20yo dating a 17yo but things a 40 something dating a 20yo is so normal. Age gap is important. To me if it’s within 10 year difference I can be ok with it (I’d prefer within the 5 year range) but after 10 years there’s something that feels creepy about it. If a 40 something feels attracted to a 20yo you are not gonna tell me they didn’t feel attracted to minors in their 30s
A while back, a friend of mine learned that a girl she knew married a much older man. Here are some of the red flags in the relationship: 1. She was 19. He was 40 2. He had been divorced two times previously. 3. Literally no one knew about the relationship until after they were married. 4. He had known her since she was 8. And I understand your point about the difference between a 40/20 and a 20/17, but to be fair, I don't think that's a great argument from a legal standpoint. After all, the 17yo is underage while the 40yo and the 20yo are technically both adults. If they want to date, it's their choice, but a 20yo dating a 17yo is actually illegal behavior. I do understand your point tho.
You've brought up some interesting points and even though I might not entirely agree with you, it is worth having people share these opinions. However, as this channel grows, I think you might want to mind the community that is being cultivated. Just from my perspective as a trans woman, Im seeing some low-grade transphobic comments made re:JK Rowling and Harry Potter. If that behavior isnt addressed this channel might grow to develop an identity as a place where those comments are normalized. And I can only speak for myself when I say that that is one thing that will decentivize me taking part in a community more than most other things.
I’m done listening to new information, I just subscribed and I want to know who will destroy the planet if I vote for the wrong person for the next election. It’s pretty important so don’t let me down.
I'm in the camp of separating art from artist. I love books and enjoy good stories. These are composed by humans who do human things. Not all human things are good. BUT, I would always respect a person's decision that a horrific behavior would turn them off and cause them to refuse an artist's work. What Gaiman has been accused of doing -- sounds like a real pig -- does not steer me away from his books. I haven't read his works yet, but I really want to. American Gods and Neverwhere are high on my TBR and S.A. allegations are not enough to steer me away. I would go crazy trying to avoid works created by "bad people". Any X-Men movie by Bryan Singer, any movie produced by Weinstein company, any H.P. Lovecraft story, anything in Harry Potter universe -- we would all be missing out on some great entertainment if we had to dodge all works by "bad people".
Yea, only what he did isn’t human. SA’ing someone isn’t human. It’s the exact opposite- inhuman. And there’s a difference between author with not-so favorable views like most would consider JK Rowling or in the case of HP Lovecraft and Neil Gaiman who alleged accusations of SA is being put forth against him.
@nenyeo6090 oh but it is a human behavior... albeit a disgusting scumbag behavior where he hasn't risen above animal instinct, but human nonetheless. I have the ability to block that out and buy his books, and to read them willingly. Maybe it's because his reputation as a fantastic writer lasted so long and only recently this scandal came to light. If I hadn't heard of him prior to the scandal, that would probably sway me from reading his books. It's tough to say. That's why there's no right answer to these discussions.
I love my friends I do not read their blogs... He should try to become president of the USA ;);):) I am reading lots of Rilke, some Kierkegard, and also other thinkers, essays of various thinkers. This phenomenon is not present in any of the books I have found out. To be precise, the sexual advances are constantly present in history from kings to musicians, but I can not find an essay about it. Maybe Kierkegard is the closest? In modern times we have thought about the possibility of people not being human being and all vices are on the radar suddenly... Life is simpler than idealist would like it to be... We have an entire generation of incels who are not interested in relations, in sex in family making. It will become quaint fast allegations about sex, about human nature concerning sexual abuse. Women are often not to believe to... the problem is always complicated. p.s. Tar is great! p.p.s Poor Patrick Rothfuss... he liked Neil, and poor bc of the chapter scandal :(
I don't understand how anyone refuse to take in media or culture that involves people they dislike. Read You Can't Win by Jack Black (Not Tenacious D) it's a memoir written by a train riding hobo and burglar from the late 1800s early 1900s.
It appears (quite sadly) that Richard and his current thoughts on the pasta vs noodle debate (If it can even be called a debate... more like one of those funny conspiracies you find after scrolling through youtube until 3 AM), seems to indicate that Richard may, in fact, have the tastebuds, texture sensitivity, and chemical knowledge of a jellyfish... Either that, or Richard is in fact aware of how blasphemous calling noodles and pasta the same thing are, and is rising up to troll the internet with what the youngins might call "hot food takes". If it is the first... I hear that there's surgeries to fix taste buds based ailments. Not being from the US... no idea what that would cost for you guys but, judging from how bad the ailment is showing itself, might be worth the money. If it is the second... I propose to the counsel the establishment of a new crusading order. One devoted to the expelling and destruction of such food based blasphemes from the face of this corner of the internet! Having a preference for one starch type is more than fine, expected even! But calling them the same thing, despite the vast cultural, technique, and chemical differences is an ignorance that I can no longer ignore! Join me all! We have a common enemy of gastronomy! If thy wisheth to enjoin this crusade use this hashtag below in all public (or internet) forums! THE HERESY MUST END!! To join this crusade, use this: #thisisclearlyajokefortheloveofallthatsgoodpleasedon'ttakethisseriously. Also... fun free hint for anyone... Don't write comments when you're hungry.
An opinion based on scientific, objective fact, that XX = female and XY = male. The horror. 😄 She's very brave for not caving and standing up for women.
I mean, she's the one that insinuated that trans women are a bunch of rapists. She has some vile things and we have some really good reasons to dislike her
Completely of the video topic-struggling to read lightbringer-got through every other red rising within a month(quick for me) but lightbringer has been maybe 3 months of reading a page or two only and putting it down…since you have read it pls convince me to get through it or will I just wait till red god and speed through it?
I would be interested in hearing about your take on the policy how you think you are going to talk and promote his works on your channel in the future? How about other authors? Is there going to be a caviat or mention about their actions or it it just glossed over? How do you think your viewers will see that? Let's say trans people or sa survivors? Or is that even a concern? I agree that history should not be forgotten and it is important to try to see the opposing view also. I also like to think that if I'm not harmed then I have strength to fight. People who are harmed by Rowling need support and for me that's free. I can be vocal about my believes, it may not change much, but it will be something to someone. And I can pick my battles. By silently condoning the transhate, I would be inadvertantly supporting it. Not careing is a luxury.
I used to love Harry Potter but now as an adult I can no longer read this series and will not share the stories with any future children. As part of the LGBT+ community, she has done terrible things for safety in the UK. Transphobia has increased and violence towards trans people has increased due to her hatred. Nothing she does now will ever allow me to forgive her and for that I will not separate art from artist.
I'm part of that community too and go figure, I actually listened to what JK Rowling said so I know she didn't say anything wrong. It's called having a brain and using it.
There is an element to it where even if you don't buy any of her products and just reread/rewatch what you have while talking with nothing but praise about her, it lends her an amount of cultural cache that helps her transphobia spread . Just gonna stay away from her
when it comes to Rowling she's becoming the face of a hate movement im a resent subscriber to the channel and have people i care about who are trans and nonbinary i just cant stumic dealing with her content
That's good. But rich, famous people tend to slip away unscathed often. Through NDAs, settlements, bribing, payouts. Yes, innocent untproven guilty. But I think voices of the accusers must be valued as much.
To share a personal anecdote: my grandmother was horrible. For decades she emotionally abused and manipulated my dad and uncle their entire lives and it carried into my siblings and cousins. Her physcial and emotionally abuse on my grandfather caused him to get dementia. She made my mom and aunt felt small, she threw a knife at my cousin bc she didn't stack the plates correctly, and said I was demonic and going to hell because I liked metal music, that I wasn't her grandson unless I stoped listening to it. Her abuse was so horrible that many of us completely cut her out of our lives because the pain she bore us was too much.
When she about to die she started getting mental health help and we learned she had Borderline Personality Disorder and was of a long line of abuse from her side of the family. She confided in my dad that she knew she was a horrible mother and asked "I was a horrible grandmother, wasn't I?". He came to us once and said he saw real change in her and couldn't believe how much the medication and therapy did. However, we also learned that the indigenous people she lived near absolutely loved her, she had done so many wonderful things for them. She treated them with care, kindness, generosity. We were shocked by their stories, "how could this be our grandma? Why wasn't she this way for us? why did they never see the demon? How could she treat us so horribly but treat them with such kindness?"
It's impacted me quite profoundly that I no longer judge people wholly by one perspective. We are all different to different people, we're "the toxic partner" to one relationship, and the gentle kind soul with such care and compassion to another. A great author with wonderful positive ideas of humanity and the world can also do horrible things, and the kinds most wonderful author can write about sexual abuse, violence, and the brutalities of humans as if they themselves were committing the acts. All this is to say, Neil Gaiman may or may not have done those things, and while I truly hate it if he did, I can also enjoy his works (especially the post-controversy stuff) regardless, because I still get a lot out of them. I'm always skeptical of how someone is at relationships if they've had multiple marriages over many decades, I don't dismiss their art, but I also won't be surprised if it comes out later they aren't great people to date/marry/love, bc yeah, that checks out... hence the multiple marriages.
Anyway, human beings are complicated. Even those who cause an incredible amount of pain can also create a huge amount of good and kindness. I think it's healthy to not put blankets over everyone, but approach each person and situation individually. If someone wants to stop reading Gaiman, they are most welcome to, I won't begrudge their choice, similarly I hope they won't begrudge others who decide they can separate the art from the artist --- or the human from the celebrity (or the abusive grandmother from the community caregiver).
I agree. I think it’s the beautiful irony of humanity - that very flawed and imperfect creatures can, in a sense, still be capable of creating something perfect; whether we’re talking writing, music, art, dance, acting, or in your example, taking some action that has a positive effect on someone else.
I really appreciate this anecdote.
Thanks for telling your story :)
Great story thanks for sharing. People on the internet are quick to call others monsters even if whatever they did "wrong" does not validate such words. It's enough if you're over 30, male and have a career. They're just waiting for reasons to rip you apart. If there aren't any, they'll start making things up and create rumors which then others will repeat elsewhere. Like nobody is able to live by the standards we're trying to create online, and eventually people will realize this. We all make mistakes, horrible and vile mistakes and the key here is to take personal accountability and be better in the future. You can't fix the past. But when I say personal, I mean personal. Not via statements through social media. Celeb or no, they don't owe us anything. Just as much as you have the right to your personal life, so do they. Regardless of how much you loved certain book or film by them. We don't own anyone just because they are online. Internet culture is still quite young and has changed a lot within 10 years. Sooner or later it'll change to a more balanced discussion. We can't be this black and white forever.
Thanks so much for sharing this! Really insightful
31:31 "Me buying a book sends them 3 dollars" but the thing is, if EVERYONE thinks this way, then that keeps problematic living people RICH. That's the problem. The problem is when the masses think what they do doesn't matter or doesn't affect something, when it DOES.
Letting the most talented assholes write books is that really that bad a system?
If you look at someone like Rawlings she kind of created the YA genre which im not sure was a good thing. BUT it probably increased the total size of a book genre by a significant amount. If she had gotten boycotted and never finised the potter series maybe the whole book marketplace would be 50% smaller half of all authors right now would be without a job.
Cant help feeling if you stop the next Shakespeare from writing books ur hurting humanity
@@soggz9190nobody is saying they can’t write. I just have no interest reading books written by awful people. Yeah, apparently Ender’s game is amazing but I just have no interest in reading it after hearing the author’s views
@@willpi6413 Genuine question, I have your view that I don't like supporting "bad" authors or people, but would you read a book by a "bad" author if you bought it used? Since buying it used would not contribute to supporting the author or would you still boycott that author completely?
Look, he is a LIVING author. Probably 50% of his fanbase is responding to HIM, as a person; they LIKE him and want to support his work. He has spent multiple decades crafting a persona, a persona that people really like. HE has not separated himself from his work, and it is going to be REALLY hard for his fans to now do so.
This was a hugely successful strategy for him; but I think we can all acknowledge that it has drawbacks, such as when people no longer like, respect or admire you as a person.
I don't think he will be able to come back from this...and I think it it will have a lasting effect on his legacy as well.
Only about 10 minutes in or so, but I gotta stop and say this. If you’re wondering how easily you CAN separate the art and artist, try reading something your friend wrote. So incredibly hard to put it out of mind. Way easier to do with someone you don’t know, but still, it’s always there.
I think it depends on how personal and intimate you want be with the work. For me, it's hard to separate those things
I think the discourse around “separating the artist from the art” has more nuance. To me there’s a difference between separating the art from the artist as it comes to certain situation. So, there’s a difference between an author not liking black people (Dr.Seuss), being partial in feminism (Virginia Woolf), not liking the gays (Frank Herbert) and then there’s other author that take it a step too far like we’re seeing with Neil Gaiman which I just don’t think is acceptable in any way shape or form. I think we shouldn’t give Gaiman that grace of separation of art from the artist or he’ll probably never learn. Then there’s the whole thing about an author being dead or alive and how that contributes to their financial success and all that. I think if people still want to support Gaiman (which I disagree with) then it should be in a way that doesn’t benefit him in any way. Perhaps, libraries or second hand will do the trick.
they did mention a friend’s work in a previous podcast and said it wasn’t well written as far as I remember
@@DONWASABIJUAN not really comparing the people. Just trying to make the point that I don’t really think it’s possible to have absolutely no biases on a read if you know anything about the author.
I read very horny kink-centered stories written by my friends on a regular basis and it has zero impact on my relationships with them or how I see them as people.
If the artist is dead, I can separate the art from the artist cos they ain't gunna see the money I spend. But a living artist? No. Same with another big but shxtty author, I will never spend anything related or towards them ever again.
“What is the ocean but a multitude of drops?”
A simple statement that’s is quite profound and deep. Sorry I can’t help myself from an easy pun.
Interesting talk. I think what makes it hard for some people to separate the art from the artist in this case is that he was actively in contact with fans. His work attracts people who often are misunderstood and he connected with them and shared his own stories on social media and in emails. He wasn't a distant person on a book jacket.
I just hit play but I love how genuine you guys are. You do not shy away from controversial topics or giving your opinions in general. It’s such fresh air in these times where most people online just want to pander
Thank you!
I’m so glad your podcast exists guys 💙💙💙
Thanks a ton!
if you want to read it, just pirate it. Theres no excuse to adamantly buy when piracy is just as easy if not easier
I’m a pretty firm believer in separating the art from the artist for one of the reason you two brought up, it’s a greater loss for me in most cases than a benefit to the creator. Admittedly it’s incredibly hard to put that in practice with visual mediums. Like “THATS THE FACE I HATE THAT FACE” 😂 great takes and great video as always fellas.
Also fun sidebar. My mom got cussed out by Dave Matthews and I was never allowed to listen to the Dave Mathew’s band growing up LOL
47:53 Kindred by Octavia Butler. Incredible book.
This is a topic I have always felt conflicted about, and I loved hearing your guys' genuine and open discussion of it. I actually think you two offered some very refreshing takes, because most of the circles I run in are very strict into the "just cancel them, you can't separate art from artist". For me as a book reviewer, I do try to avoid promoting problematic authors, especially because I think there are so many smaller, marginalized (often indie) authors who tell stories that are way more deserving of love and attention than, say, a JK Rowling or Sarah J. Maas. But at the same time, I can very easily separate art from artist, especially when their work brings me so much joy.
However, idk if I can still listen to a Gaiman audiobook and not get the creeps now... which sucks because the man is a damn good narrator 🤣🥲
Appreciate your thoughts on this topic! Really sorry to hear this about Neil Gaiman.
One example of this for me is H.P. Lovecraft. I LOVE the worldbuilding and ideas in his stories, but I also fully recognize that the guy was legitimately racist. But for me, I feel comfortable being able to fixate on the mythos of his universe while acknowledging that he was a very flawed individual with a bad worldview.
The original edgelord gigachad
Agreed that it depends.
Sometimes you should abstain not because you will individually make a big splash, but because it matters to you.
Also, it's valid to consider whether you are giving them money to them or not. Whether they're alive or dead, or whether you could get a used book instead of new and paying them.
"Never meet your heroes"
When it comes to separating art from the artist, I'm a firm believer that it's up to the individual to decide. That's up to you and your own convictions. For me, I can do it depending on what the artist did. If the artist is just a not great person, I can still enjoy their work. But if they are the type to go out of their way to harm other people, then I can't do it, because their art is what gives them the money and power, to have access to harm people, JK Rowling and Bill Cosby, are easy examples.
Personally, I would never buy any new material of JK Rowling, but I’m also not going to get rid of my Harry Potter books that I’ve had since childhood - ya know? Like that money has long ago been spent and because of the childhood nostalgia that the series gives me, I’ll always be able to separate it from her and her views!
If you follow the line of thinking that a novel and writing is general is an expression of self (which I think everyone would likely partly agree on), then I think you can say that like an authors work is the good parts of them. They wouldn’t exactly put in the parts they don’t like about themselves. We all have some skeletons in our closet and some things we’re trying to change, so one act defining how there art is perceived seems immature. But if the act is directly related to the art that does change things.
What a great topic guys! So thought provoking. Got my wheels turning on Monday morning thanks. I have soooo many thoughts on this 1.
I can separate the art and the artist if it is unrelated. I have no problem reading O.S. Card for example, because I’m there for the story. Not him. However ppl like Cosby is different because his “art” can no longer be believed. Idk if that makes sense
Remember when Gaiman advocated for #BelieveAllWomen? I guess he's guilty by his own metric then
That's not how that phrase works. But strawmanning sure makes your argument strong!
The problem seems to be that he doesn't consider himself to be guilty because he has a very particular - and totally wrong - idea about what consent is.
I can usually separate art from the artist. Also, if you want to not support authors you can get their book second hand from people who bought it before whatever big thing came out.
I find I'm having a hard time separating them when it's an actor or singer. Because they are very physically present when consuming their art.
The hard hitting topics. I’ll say only this-at the end of the day, we humans are the perfect examples of imperfection. I accept people who aren’t able to separate the art from the artist because their experiences are their own. Just as I accept those who are able to switch off what the author has done. And as mentioned in other comments, the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Brave discussing the topic, although I am sure for you, it was just another week 😂
This is something everyone have to judge in their own. For all those quoting "innocent until proven guilty" I want to remind, that this rule applies in the law. In a regular social life - not necessarily. People are getting ostracized and condemned in their social circles based on rumours and unproven allegations all the time. It has been like that since forever. The only difference is that nowadays we have twitter (and angry twitter mob).
Now, in this particular case I don't have a problem, cause even though I was trying, I wasn't able to get to like Neil Gaiman's writing. But I know that when an artist you like turns out to be, so to speak, very far from ideal, it will likely leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter what you do.
Anyway guys, interesting discussion, as usual. Keep them coming!
You are two brave men 😆
I'm almost afraid to leave this comment, but here goes. I could never really support Neil Gaiman because he and his family are long-time scientologists. Neil may have gotten out of the cult more recently, but he was definitely in it for a long time. I also can't support Tom Cruise because of that. I can ignore almost any other issue with an artist, but scientology is a human trafficking cult and the wealthy supporters of it should be ashamed. In this one issue, I can't separate the artist from the art. I've read too many horrific memoirs from ex members to be able to ignore it.
I mean, how can you blame someone for something they were born into? You yourself said he got out of it
@thellama3239 I hear you. But... there's just too much stuff to put in this comment. I will just say that I feel how I feel and I can't help it. Maybe if you did as much research about it as I have, you would understand. I usually don't mention this to other people because there's just too much info to explain in a short time.
From what I've read about scientology this actually makes me think the allegations have something to do with him leaving, given the track record of the scientology church. 😅
@donovanchilton5817 hey thanks. Lol.
I get this totally. When I learned Beck was a Scientologist, I really lost enthusiasm for his music. I still respect it, but just can't get into it.
Not to comment early and miss the context, but I don’t fully agree with Rich’s opening statements.
Open relationships and age gaps aren’t any of the issue here. People, even famous people should be allowed to be weird. If two or more adults WANT to engage in ‘degenerate behaviour’ that shouldn’t be something to string them up by. People like weird stuff, and the more that get shunned for it, the less it gets talked about, the problems will be swept under the rug.
The issue here has to be exclusively in the communication between the ones who claim assault and the one who claims it was consensual.
It doesn’t look good for Neil Gaiman, to be honest. And I don’t feel confident in sticking up for the man, but there’s still a chance he’s telling the truth. If he was in that situation and didn’t know they were unconsenting, then that’s the conversation that needs to be had. That’s how it’s prevented from being repeated. By discussing the dynamics of those engagements and how to ensure everyone is comfortable when they’re initiated. Not discussing how distasteful it sounds to have such an age gap or to be in an open relationship.
Facts
Me too is a cancer
@@groofayit is degenerate in his opinion. Also, it's his channel. You don't think it's degenerate, he does, I do. And we all can live in peace.
@@RalphNC09
Translation= “women calling out men for their degenerate behavior is a CANCER to society. We should’ve stayed in the past where men were allowed to do as they please and it’s A-OKAY. 👌🏾 “ You’re different and I don’t mean that in a good way.
There are times where people consent in the moment and then after regret it and say it was sexual assault
I don’t like this comment section
The Courtyard of the Old Residency in Munich (1914) is one of my favorite paintings.
I agree w a lot said. A Stephen King character in IT says that “if art one day became all and only about politics, he’d k!ll himself”.
A caveat:
What about the artist’s life story enhancing the reading experience? Frankenstein is a fantastic text. Love it to death. And maybe if you’re suuuuper perceptive you’ll be able to get all the feminist, Galvanist, Romantic, regency, motherhood, Industrial Revolution, and theological readings in one go. Most likely, you won’t unless you immerse yourself in the fears and hopes of the time period and of Mary Shelley’s life. Sure. You don’t have to! You’ll still get a great story of Victor and his monster and their pushes and pulls that lead to tragedy… but the text imo is elevated and registered in so many more dimensions that you just wouldn’t get if you didn’t know the context. Do I think every piece of art you encounter you should treat with this much care? No. That’s unrealistic. But I think if something speaks to you, do immerse yourself in it fully and learn what were the circumstances that allowed for its birth.
😊
Edit: AP Canavan has a fantastic video about to what extent and IF authorial intent shoild trump reader interpretation. Highly recommend looking into it and I found his perspective as a literature professor to be very interesting.
Artists who claim to never do any meaning in their works have meaning in their works all the time.
Nearly all art is political by nature. You are a person in a system, and your thoughts and feelings are curved by said system. You can actually learn a lot about the time period and political climate by looking at virtually any art piece from any time. German folklore's politics dealt with how impoverished their society was, so their stories reflect children learning harsh lessons.
That's actually a really good point. I suppose that even if the author is a not so great person, there is always a chance that their life story can enhance their writing.
After all, people aren't just good or bad. We're more nuanced than that. You can meet a man who donates money to charity and cheats on his wife in the same day. A gross writer will likely have some good characteristics that will bleed into their work, and you never know what kind of effects those good things will have. Perhaps a writer arrested for SA wrote a story about parenthood and love, and reading that story helped a person fix a broken relationship with their mother. Does that make the writer a good person? No, but it does show that their work still has value despite their immoral character.
As far as authors go, I was on the fence as to whether I should read Terry Goodkind, but then I learned about his disparaging remarks about Robert Jordan as Jordan was going through the illness that ended up killing him, and then further research/commentary leans toward Goodkind taking A LOT from Wheel of Time to create Sword of Truth. Now, I'll never read anything from him. I try my best to separate author from their works, but making fun of someone that has a likely fatal illness/disease is too far.
I can smell this comment section
Damn so much Wisdom bud, I couldnt have gotten that point across with better words, the world needs more people like you. Is easy to judge is hard to understand...
I've just seen this and it was fascinating. Love some of the things you touched on and how you handled a difficult subject. Awesome - I've subbed.
Thanks so much
I know it was a throw away line in the video. Not the point of the video. But, I'm a politics nerd in addition to being a book nerd. Individual votes matter in a lot of ways. For example, the 2016 presidential election was ultimately super close even though 139 million votes were cast. It came down to a total of 80,000 votes in three states. In 2017, control of the Virginia state legislature was literally decided by the flip of a coin because the election for one state legislator was a tie and the outcome of that race determined which party would be in control. But, beyond these nail biters, research shows that regular voting is an accurate predictor for both an individual's likelihood to take on higher levels of civic engagement as well as the health, transparency and effectiveness of local governments.
You can the same thing for 2020. It cane down to 30000 votes in 3 states
Atkeast in 2024 it wont be that close
Mr T will destroy little K
We'll know on November 5 (or soon after) but, personally, I would be very surprised if it turned out that way.
Oh...and if you recall our discussion the man loves internet piracy too!!!
I know this is a nuanced topic and people have a lot of thoughts and high emotions……but I just need to say that I separated this podcast from the podcasters.
There isnt a right or wrong answer. If you like his work keep reading. If you love his books and hate him now and throw away every book you have of his, that's fine too. I personally dont see why it matters what someone's personal life has to do with the enjoyment you get from their work. But whatever. What people shouldn't do is hating on people for continuing to like his books, or hating on them for no longer being able to enjoy his books. It's just a personal choice.
I can read whatever I want since I don't believe the internet has the right to tell me what to do based on gossip. Trial by social media is disgusting.
Of course you can separate the art(product) from the artist(creator), just because someone is not a saint in his personal life, it doesn't mean he cannot create something amazing. A lot of artists in the history were jerks but it doesn't diminish the quality of their work. I don't have to like the artist as a person to like their work (and usually I couldn't care less what they do outside of their products).
Austin: Richard you have the ability to turn off your brain.
Richard’s Brain: Every time you speak.
😂😂😂😂
for the sake of the victims, you should boycott the art as much as you can. buy used books. shoot, pirate their books LOL. It's hard for the victims not to feel like "the world doesn't care that my assailant did this to me" when he continues to thrive.
At no time before the 21st century, you could know about the real life of an artist, writter, musician, actor, or the like of. I never knew a thing about the bad behavior of many of them and I could not care less about it.
Nowadays it seems much more important to decide if Tolkien was much more racist or less racist than his fellows of the same country and age than to actually read him. What a waste of time (not talking about this video, it is ok to discuss the topic in general)
I second the recommendation of Tár. It’s so good. Lydia Tár is one of the most fascinating and complex characters I’ve ever seen created for film, Cate Blanchett was incredible
In general I think people are complex and allegations of bad or even criminal behavior are disappointing in any artist. It doesn’t necessarily stop me from enjoying the art unless it’s really bad or is reflected somehow in the art. The problem with some allegations like Gaiman is there’s a lot of grey area and differing accounts and it’s hard to find the line of what’s true and what’s not. I do believe it shows he has bad character and other issues, but I really cannot be sure on all the specific details of what happened
I guess I'm missing a bit of a discussion on you guys as or any person with a platform potentially refraining from (or not) talking or popularizing works of polarizing artists after known facts.
I find this topic fascinating. Neil gaiman affected me deeply with his writing and i adore all of the stories he has written. However, like you guys said, assault allegations being true or not, his actions are STILL icky.
I feel like i am struggling with that a lot. Because this sort of behaviour is not something i support. Ive sort of settled on feeling less guilty pirating his books. Lol
I was literally just gifted American Gods a couple of weeks ago, never really knew anything about Gaiman then saw this video.
Harry potter is a great exapmle to use here. I can still watch the films, they are a collaborative project from the minds and passion of loads of people. The books are a direct product of the individual, i find it very hard to separate that.
JK Rowling didn’t do anything wrong lol. She didn’t hurt anyone, she just has an opinion
@@thellama3239 Except she doesn’t “just have an opinion” - that’s not the issue people have; it’s the misuse of her ENORMOUS platform to defame people(in particular, accusing literal biological women of being trans when that is just verifiably false, as in the case of Imane Khelif). It’s extremely irresponsible behaviour, especially considering how Khelif comes from a country where being transgender is very much illegal - so Rowling knowingly spreading misinformation about her gender identity could potentially have serious repercussions for this female boxer.
@James...absolutely this. She put someone's life in danger. For an opinion.
I am Italian. Regarding Mussolini. We study Fascism in school and most normal people talk about him in negative terms and are happy he ended up the way it did. We celebrate anti fascism every year even though far right wing movements are rising (and won the last elections in Italy). Mussolini is not tabu in Italy as Hitler might be in Germany.
My problem is that I feel like these days people stop interacting with someone’s work for stuff that doesn’t warrant it to me. Like there are some people I just wouldn’t interact with something they made because of their views, but my bar is higher then a lot of other people’s
Great stuff fellas, keep it up!
Thank you!
I stopped reading his books a while ago for other issues so easy one for me. And I have to say this is where pirating books doesn't feel that bad. You still get to enjoy the story you like without giving money to someone you don't like.
Now, this isn't an insult I swear but... you're American and men. Discussions over women's rights over there are not really the standard because of the ideologies that you might not believe in. But they have you being very nervous about saying the "wrong thing" so people don't attack you. But educate yourselves because you're smart guys and will get it quickly. Defending women's rights isn't being anti anything. Other than anti the oppression women suffer. If you read what those who people tell you are witches said, you might find it all makes a lot of sense. Try it out.
What exactly did they say that led you to make this comment about their views on women's rights and being American men?
@@lkay398they basically said that supporting Gaiman is fine since your money is a drop in the bucket. But they’re giving their opinions on a situation where a woman got sexually assaulted by a guy. Having 2 guys give their opinion on it is worthless. I’d like to hear more diverse takes on this issue and feel this isn’t even these two’s place to talk about it.
Always great discussions! I agree that generally you should separate art from creator, unless their work is so infused with the thing you dislike that it's impossible to do so. That said, I understand if someone can't separate them. If I found out one of my fav authors was a pedo, for example, I'd have a hard time ignoring that while reading the book. Everyone has a line, as you said. However, I also think we should be properly informed when we draw that line. When Rowling was accused of all this horrible stuff, I did some research. I read her words in context, looked at her behaviour, and made my decision based on that, not on what some irate tiktok or x influencer or even actor in her own films said.
I'm generally a "separate the art from the artist" person on a case-by-case basis. In the case of Neil Gaiman, he's an author whose work I haven't fully gotten into yet. I can't help but think about these gross allegations, particularly the non-consensual nature if them, and not think that sone of his characters weren't somehow wrapped up in him being okay with that. That said, voting with my wallet by not buying his wirks isn't going to do anythjng to him financially. It's not so much that I don't want to support his stuff financially, it's that I feel gross about about potentially reading or experiencing his stories in general. I think this will fade away for me over time, but I can't read/experience for now.
I find it funny how many people are shocked by the allegations against Neil Gaiman and the things he's openly admitted to. Like, have you read his short stories?
That’s not really a good indicator of anything though. An author having something in their work doesn’t mean they practice that thing or want to practice or are involved in said thing. Sometimes, it’s a mode of exploration more so than stating it as a fact or fantasy of theirs.
@@groofay nice to know you’re in agreement with me. But yea, I don’t like when people do that. Sometimes, it’s a way of exploration is all, nothing to do with how they actually think or feel. That being said, George has written some good books most people love and adore but we still don’t know him as a person. I think to attribute innocence to him (as most of us did with Gaiman) isn’t the best course of action. Let me make it clear that I don’t think that we should condemn George but attributing innocence to him just because we like what he’s written isn’t ideal. We shouldn’t blindly follow people who’ve made impact in any aspect of our world just because we like what they’ve done (if that makes sense) healthy skepticism and all that. That said, I love fire and blood. I’d like to get to dunk &egg but not so much for the main series (ASOIAF) but only because it’s not completed. I hope you understand what I’m saying in that we shouldn’t project innocence unto an author, politician, or any great person though that doesn’t mean that they should be condemned until something comes out against them.
@@groofay agree 💯
Sometimes it really depends on how certain author's "problems" relate to you on a personal level. For example, I'm from Ukraine and I would never read a book of an author who supports russia. Even authors who are dead. I just can't physically bring myself to read the works of dostoevsky or tolstoi, and I don't care how important they are considered to be in literature. Especially when you understand the whole tragedy of russian cultural occupation. It upsets me when people still romanticize russian culture, but I also understand that they haven't experienced the same, so they just can't feel the same way about it.
For me, the line is what is my dollar doing.
In the case of Rowling, my Dollar is going directly to her and then directly to anti-trans funds and efforts so buying harry potter stuff is near identical to putting money into ant-trans funds.
Gaimen on the other hand is gross. And you can make the argument that any monetary support can provide avenues that allows him to further possible grossness but ultimately his action have very little to do with his income outside of the abstract.
Case by case basis.
Except she's not anti teams. Educate yourself before accusing people.
@xiongrey19 great points! Agreed
You use a lot of Nazi German references here. Let me add one more: when asked why those who lived next to the camps did nothing against Hitler, many of them stated they were apolitical. Of course that isn't true, and in reality, many of them supported him. To them he was a strong leader that stood up for the German people. But how would anyone know the difference between those that supported him and those that just stood by? They wouldn't because the outcome of either view was the same. To this day when I hear someone stating it doesn't matter to protest, I think of that. I think of the Stolpersteines throughout Europe that mark the cost. There are plenty of books out there, and plenty of ways to discuss books and topics without supporting bad actors. Harry Potter wasn't written after JK Rowling read every book about boy wizards that came before. Nor has every great book written in the style of Lord of the Rings reached anywhere near the popularity. My take - love what you love, draw your lines where you want, but remember that the line between support and silence is thinner than we think.
24:20 Peacemaker is pretty good
This avoids the issue that legal institutions provide little protection for survivors of sexual assault, and there is a movement to provide an extralegal process for removing high-level perpetrators from positions of power. If you put priority on having fun and escaping reality rather than acknowledging how you’re contributing to that sexual abusive man’s position of power by featuring them in your book club at the height of these allegations then you’re part of the problem.
“The narcissism of small differences lead to the most boring conformity,” is a quote from Tár, a character who committed sexual misconduct from a position of power trying to rationalize her own transgressions and how people should perceive her legacy. Using that quote to support your decision to continue reading Neil Gaiman means you’ve missed the point of that movie.
this is the well written straightforward take I was looking for in this comment section. I agree 100%.
Thank you for this. I can’t believe how far logic has fallen, the gall of forming our ethos around movie quotes.
“Its too hard”: American society’s eternal justification for avoidable behavior
The only time I wasn't able to separate the art from the artist was recently with the Drake "Allegations". His music tends to be very personal, so listening to the songs where he talks about women in a certain way, it's kind of stomach churning to think that those women could have been older girls... 🤮.
Every other time, I've been fine, especially with fiction authors. Most of them are very good at not letting their personal views affect their character. The ones I don't like, I'll just borrow their books or use a credit, but I won't stop reading them unless they get bad at writing.
I'm ready to think
23:54 Totally agree on the John Cena mandarin apology. 👏👏👏👊🏼
Rich at 4:47 “he’d be a dog” 😂
Imo, your voter matter. Imagine in the UK, this year center/left won because the right didn't go to vote in numbers. "Labour gained over 200 seats but their vote share increased by less than two percentage points to 34%. The Conservatives saw their vote share plummet by 20 points to 24% and the party lost 251 seats".
Also, worked for Tesla for 5 years. I love Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink and Neuralink. I used to like Elon Musk, now I despise him even though I recognise the contribution to tech he has. He used to be a bit out of line but few years ago his brain has started going into some very dark places and now he actively tells people to vote for people who don't believe climate change is real.
Us, consumers can change our mind regarding a person and can separate artwork from its creator.
I can't stand his writing anyway so I don't care.
same here :D
After reading the incredibly creepy intro that Gaiman wrote for the Elric books, this is not surprising unfortunately.
Imo, I am ok with consensual relationships between adults even if the age gap is big. Abuse and grooming are another thing. I don't know which one of these applies to each situation and I try not to judge.
I'd say if someone is accused and not convicted you should stick woth innocent till guilty tbh. It's a complex issue
I would heartily agree. Needs to be heard before the people.
But you can also say they are probably not a good person. I don’t think anyone here is talking about legality
@@Rumham729 no, we're talking about proof. Innocent until *proven* guilty. If there is no proof, why would you judge someone as immoral and potentially cancel them?
@@nyxian_gridbecause he's openly admitted to some super gross stuff. Being a multimedia superstar and pushing yourself onto a woman 40 years younger than yourself on the day you hired her to watch your kids is messed up
@@emosongsandreadalongs I think consent is what's being debated nevertheless...
Southland Tales is a good movie with The Rock :)
First! Thanks for the entertainment on my way to work
Thank you for watching us!!
Great comments boys. You said you’re interested in writing, are you ever gonna talk about what you write?
Absolutely- I update mostly on our Lives at the end of the month. Our next one should be coming up Saturday
A lot of people in the comments are quick to jump to conclusions. However, let's not forget the 5th and 6th amendments.
I was hoping for a thoughtful discussion here, but i've had to stop pretty early on. Calling open relationships and sex between consenting adults with a large age gap "degenerate" is not remotley appropraite, and also not remotely relevent. If you don't like open relationships, don't be in one. The only issue that matters here is consent. Everything else is totally irrelevent. A 20 year old is an adult and has the freedom to have consenting sex with any other adult regardless of age. If you don't want to have sex with an adult who's a lot older or younger than you, don't. Moral outrage over it makes the actual issue of consent harder to deal with. In calling consual behaviour between adults "degenerate" you change the from consent to what you personally find icky. It also implies that non-monogamy and relationships with large age-gaps are inherently non-consensual, which is both untrue and riddled with implicit anti-lgbtq bigotry (something I am sure was unintended here).
Consent is a very FLIMSY framework to base a sexual decision on. It doesn’t make sense when you think a little more about it. It’s a blurry line. A sexual relationship should be more than through the framework of consent.
@@trebucheguevara1052 for me it's not the age gap that bothers me the most (although I still think it's icky), it's the fact that he's a world-famous celebrity who was employing at least one of the women that's accusing him. A clear power imbalance in my mind
Exactly, these guys' views on this kind of thing are so judgemental and prudish. The SA allegations are the issue, not his consensual open relationships.
@@emosongsandreadalongs that's part of the consent issue. Power imbalances of that sort can create environments where one person feels they can't say no. That's not separate from my point about consent, that IS my point about consent. My comment was more about their seeming distgust at consensual open-relationships and relationships with large age gaps, than it was about whether Gaiman is guilty of sexual assault.
I haven't started the video yet, but I think the topic is really interesting. Can you separate the art from the artist? For me, it's really hard to do that. When I read, I'm constantly trying to get into the author's headspace, I want to appreciate their imagination and creativity. But actively knowing a story came from the disgusting mind of someone, is a little too intimate and weird for me.
I get it that they were of age, but to me it’s insane how society will lose it about a 20yo dating a 17yo but things a 40 something dating a 20yo is so normal. Age gap is important. To me if it’s within 10 year difference I can be ok with it (I’d prefer within the 5 year range) but after 10 years there’s something that feels creepy about it. If a 40 something feels attracted to a 20yo you are not gonna tell me they didn’t feel attracted to minors in their 30s
A while back, a friend of mine learned that a girl she knew married a much older man. Here are some of the red flags in the relationship:
1. She was 19. He was 40
2. He had been divorced two times previously.
3. Literally no one knew about the relationship until after they were married.
4. He had known her since she was 8.
And I understand your point about the difference between a 40/20 and a 20/17, but to be fair, I don't think that's a great argument from a legal standpoint. After all, the 17yo is underage while the 40yo and the 20yo are technically both adults. If they want to date, it's their choice, but a 20yo dating a 17yo is actually illegal behavior. I do understand your point tho.
You've brought up some interesting points and even though I might not entirely agree with you, it is worth having people share these opinions. However, as this channel grows, I think you might want to mind the community that is being cultivated. Just from my perspective as a trans woman, Im seeing some low-grade transphobic comments made re:JK Rowling and Harry Potter. If that behavior isnt addressed this channel might grow to develop an identity as a place where those comments are normalized. And I can only speak for myself when I say that that is one thing that will decentivize me taking part in a community more than most other things.
I’m done listening to new information, I just subscribed and I want to know who will destroy the planet if I vote for the wrong person for the next election. It’s pretty important so don’t let me down.
15:43 HARD AGREE
I'm in the camp of separating art from artist. I love books and enjoy good stories. These are composed by humans who do human things. Not all human things are good. BUT, I would always respect a person's decision that a horrific behavior would turn them off and cause them to refuse an artist's work.
What Gaiman has been accused of doing -- sounds like a real pig -- does not steer me away from his books. I haven't read his works yet, but I really want to. American Gods and Neverwhere are high on my TBR and S.A. allegations are not enough to steer me away.
I would go crazy trying to avoid works created by "bad people". Any X-Men movie by Bryan Singer, any movie produced by Weinstein company, any H.P. Lovecraft story, anything in Harry Potter universe -- we would all be missing out on some great entertainment if we had to dodge all works by "bad people".
Yea, only what he did isn’t human. SA’ing someone isn’t human. It’s the exact opposite- inhuman. And there’s a difference between author with not-so favorable views like most would consider JK Rowling or in the case of HP Lovecraft and Neil Gaiman who alleged accusations of SA is being put forth against him.
@nenyeo6090 oh but it is a human behavior... albeit a disgusting scumbag behavior where he hasn't risen above animal instinct, but human nonetheless.
I have the ability to block that out and buy his books, and to read them willingly. Maybe it's because his reputation as a fantastic writer lasted so long and only recently this scandal came to light. If I hadn't heard of him prior to the scandal, that would probably sway me from reading his books. It's tough to say. That's why there's no right answer to these discussions.
I think Moana was great though. He was good in that.
The correct answer is no.
you two must watch Sicario
I love my friends I do not read their blogs...
He should try to become president of the USA ;);):)
I am reading lots of Rilke, some Kierkegard, and also other thinkers, essays of various thinkers. This phenomenon is not present in any of the books I have found out. To be precise, the sexual advances are constantly present in history from kings to musicians, but I can not find an essay about it. Maybe Kierkegard is the closest? In modern times we have thought about the possibility of people not being human being and all vices are on the radar suddenly... Life is simpler than idealist would like it to be...
We have an entire generation of incels who are not interested in relations, in sex in family making. It will become quaint fast allegations about sex, about human nature concerning sexual abuse. Women are often not to believe to... the problem is always complicated.
p.s. Tar is great!
p.p.s Poor Patrick Rothfuss... he liked Neil, and poor bc of the chapter scandal :(
I won’t be reading any of his books until he’s completely exonerated
I still listen to lost prophets, look up what the lead singer did, so I am fine with reading gaiman I guess
You guys are the best, thank you!
If he did it , I will pirate his work, that's what I do to terrible authors and companies to be honest
Ill just say this: separate the art from the artist. Enjoy the art, you dont need to get super embroiled in the artist's personal life
I don't understand how anyone refuse to take in media or culture that involves people they dislike. Read You Can't Win by Jack Black (Not Tenacious D) it's a memoir written by a train riding hobo and burglar from the late 1800s early 1900s.
It appears (quite sadly) that Richard and his current thoughts on the pasta vs noodle debate (If it can even be called a debate... more like one of those funny conspiracies you find after scrolling through youtube until 3 AM), seems to indicate that Richard may, in fact, have the tastebuds, texture sensitivity, and chemical knowledge of a jellyfish...
Either that, or Richard is in fact aware of how blasphemous calling noodles and pasta the same thing are, and is rising up to troll the internet with what the youngins might call "hot food takes".
If it is the first... I hear that there's surgeries to fix taste buds based ailments. Not being from the US... no idea what that would cost for you guys but, judging from how bad the ailment is showing itself, might be worth the money.
If it is the second... I propose to the counsel the establishment of a new crusading order. One devoted to the expelling and destruction of such food based blasphemes from the face of this corner of the internet! Having a preference for one starch type is more than fine, expected even! But calling them the same thing, despite the vast cultural, technique, and chemical differences is an ignorance that I can no longer ignore! Join me all! We have a common enemy of gastronomy! If thy wisheth to enjoin this crusade use this hashtag below in all public (or internet) forums! THE HERESY MUST END!!
To join this crusade, use this: #thisisclearlyajokefortheloveofallthatsgoodpleasedon'ttakethisseriously.
Also... fun free hint for anyone... Don't write comments when you're hungry.
Everyone is overlooking your very poignant analysis of Richard’s noodle hot take. Pshh, people these days
It’s funny how JK Rowling is compared to rapists and mass murderer because she has an opinion
An opinion based on scientific, objective fact, that XX = female and XY = male. The horror. 😄 She's very brave for not caving and standing up for women.
That part😂 it’s pathetic. It’s giving snowflakes vibes only.
Even worse is that her "opinion" is really biological facts. 🤣
And her opinion is let's protect women's rights but she'll get attacked more than the people committing literal crimes. The world we live in 🙄
I mean, she's the one that insinuated that trans women are a bunch of rapists. She has some vile things and we have some really good reasons to dislike her
Completely of the video topic-struggling to read lightbringer-got through every other red rising within a month(quick for me) but lightbringer has been maybe 3 months of reading a page or two only and putting it down…since you have read it pls convince me to get through it or will I just wait till red god and speed through it?
SA is a reason to be emotionally charged about something. Stop supporting artists who do horrific things 😊
I would be interested in hearing about your take on the policy how you think you are going to talk and promote his works on your channel in the future? How about other authors? Is there going to be a caviat or mention about their actions or it it just glossed over? How do you think your viewers will see that? Let's say trans people or sa survivors? Or is that even a concern? I agree that history should not be forgotten and it is important to try to see the opposing view also. I also like to think that if I'm not harmed then I have strength to fight. People who are harmed by Rowling need support and for me that's free. I can be vocal about my believes, it may not change much, but it will be something to someone. And I can pick my battles. By silently condoning the transhate, I would be inadvertantly supporting it. Not careing is a luxury.
I used to love Harry Potter but now as an adult I can no longer read this series and will not share the stories with any future children. As part of the LGBT+ community, she has done terrible things for safety in the UK. Transphobia has increased and violence towards trans people has increased due to her hatred. Nothing she does now will ever allow me to forgive her and for that I will not separate art from artist.
😂keep crying about it
I'm part of that community too and go figure, I actually listened to what JK Rowling said so I know she didn't say anything wrong. It's called having a brain and using it.
There is an element to it where even if you don't buy any of her products and just reread/rewatch what you have while talking with nothing but praise about her, it lends her an amount of cultural cache that helps her transphobia spread . Just gonna stay away from her
when it comes to Rowling she's becoming the face of a hate movement im a resent subscriber to the channel and have people i care about who are trans and nonbinary i just cant stumic dealing with her content
Are you an audiobook guy? lol I hope your stumic feels better than it has been resently
boo hoo cry more. she's completely right and standing up for women's rights. anyone who hates her is either brainwashed or plain evil.
Hatred against women, however, you don't mind at all. Right Eddie boy?
How about we let the judiciary decide who’s guilty and who’s innocent instead of the media and the public? That would be a start
Fully agree. This is morality p*rn where people feel good about themselves by disparaging the accused.
That's good. But rich, famous people tend to slip away unscathed often. Through NDAs, settlements, bribing, payouts.
Yes, innocent untproven guilty. But I think voices of the accusers must be valued as much.
@@akhiltrc9708you mean well, but you just said nothing.
Well we can still say someone is a bad person without them being guilty of a crime .
@@akhiltrc9708 Agree but who will determine that we got justice or it was the case of corruption.
Not believing any of this. Ofc I'm going to read his books