Do we have a Battery Quality issue here?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มิ.ย. 2022
- I have totally forgotten about the replacement cell Qishou has sent me a while back. One of the cells from the last delivery was damaged and they have sent out a new battery to me.
Talking about quality, I have some concerns and thoughts about the recent comments under my videos where viewers shared their battery delivery experience. It seems to me, that we may have a battery quality problem here? I always had good experience with my deliveries and shared this here on my channel but I'm reading more and more negative comments in regards to this.
Do we have a battery quality issue here? What is you experience with the quality of goods and services?
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Hello, Your setup is beautiful and exquisitely organized. Tthere is no other solar "expert" on TH-cam with this level of perfection. What an inspiration. Thoroughly enjoy your videos.
Thanks a lot, Randy 😊
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Andy I'm just building a new battery over here in the UK would you recommend to compress the cells or shall I leave it without ? Thanks
Hi Andy. I’m in Canberra and bought 8 cells from Quishou using your link in February and they arrived in April. All 8 slightly bloated, and all tested around 273-276Ah. These were the LF-280k with welded studs. Amy got VERY angry at me for leaving a 3/5 star review and asked me to remove it otherwise she’ll never sell me any more cells
Bloated should be used cells grade B with a bad BMS (high/low voltage), It cannot be new cells. Maybe you can check the QR code so we can say that these are also faked. I believe its a big scam at the moment, would be nice if they say these are used (maybe bloated) and you get them with a discount
Hey mate how much did you end up paying per cell and then for shipping? I use shenzen luyuan to send to me in QLD, and they're a bit more expensive ive heard, but I wonder by how much.
@@kyba74 I payed 87.50 eur total for a 90AH cell, but within 5 days from Germany (china) so almost 1 EUR for 1AH, I guess more AH will be cheaper in total (I don't need more), but buy always local so you can send it back cheap and fast, I guess local its not a big problem, from china they scam allot. But i think mine are really new because the tread was never used, terminals not any damage, not bloated, yes you pay more but that is the difference between Grade A-B cells I think i got >4000 cycles left and not
@@kyba74 hi mate. I’m in Canberra and I got 8 X 280ah Eve cells and it was US$1030 delivered
Chinese typical behaviour but lucky you that she will never offer you anything. Not better fuse than she telling a customer to not sell cheap fake bad cells to you, only to others, more stupid.
3 Stars for bad stuff - she can be lucky, she deserved no star at all.
I ordered 8 EVE 280's from Qishou ~9-10 months ago when you first mentioned that they had stock in a US warehouse. Perfect experience - fast shipping, fair price, great/undamaged cells, all > 290ah. Using them daily with no issues.
Unfortunately, I feel like none of the Chinese companies are completely immune from at least occasional issues, and that you'll just always need a certain degree of luck...
it is no luck, cause i can only emphasize: they do know better than you the products / cells you will get and they know how to get ridd off bad inventory just by shipping it to one or the other and hoping for no complain and if then do offer a 30% or 40% discount.
They simply could offer batches of 16 with the qr code and logs if they already had done all the measurements and sell those batches one by one like it happens on ebay with a sticker and qr code just to be transparent and avoid any issues. Both sides know what each one will ship and the other will get
I mean one will pay and ship the right money where paypal takes care for and the other one will have to ship the right product as promised.
Now it is a gamble, a bet or even a lottery with lots at stake at least for those who had paid and have to wait.
Agreed, that's exactly what I meant, but stated with more nuance. None of them seem to have a problem being dishonest if they have a bad batch to unload. The luck is just whether the particular company has good or bad cells to send at the time one is ordering from them.
@@camro210 here a youtuber got brand new cells as he told us but with new QR codes covering.
SO he removed those and checked the covered ones: EVE LF280K from January
Well he told us so and he asked the supplier why they send him covered QR codes on damn good EVE cells he believed the shit they had been tellig him, also offered coupon codes for disconunts on these batteries.
He made a video entitled testing EvE LF 280K cells I got from abcc
They performed quite well - but he did not tell and fooled all thta the offer never had been an EVE offer, just a 280Ah LiFePo4 you could buy from them for a fortune of 2800€ with about another 500€ discount so 2300€ for more or less crap cause if you open the aliexpress site and press control + f and type eve you got 0 hits.
Something came to mind Andy from my time in China and impressions of things I observed in challenges Chinese culture can present to quality control and customer service. An example that might illustrate the point was when United Airlines took over management of servicing and training for Air China, and a good friend who was in charge of that related three years of trials trying overcome the old Chinese Army culture of severely punishing people for the slightest error or innocent mistake, and how that results in people resenting management, setting management up to fail, hiding mistakes and outright lying to cover their asses. Even after two years of not punishing employees for mistakes and rewarding them reporting problems they still had major challenges with falsified reports, training and maintenance dominated by a culture of "Cover You Ass".
It might be Andy, that management set a production goal of 99.9% quality and are being lied to by production when cells are only 95%, and someone is lying to management. Having spent many years doing online sales, my average scam return rate on about 1200 items a year was about 10 to 15% on eBay and up to 30% on Amazon when I quit Amazon. When Ebay got to about 30% during the COVID, I also stopped selling on them as well, and fraud can be huge issue for a seller on a slim margin.
We were once on an Air China Flight back then sitting in 1st Class with Air China's Chief Pilot and the first First Office of the flight when they suddenly got into a Full-On Slug fest with two first Class passengers, and then blamed the flight attendants for causing the fight, and not breaking it up, and did this right in-front of my American friend who was in charge of the months of customer service training the pilots had just completed.
Please Note, my intent is not to Bash Chinese people or China (I will bash the leadership of the CCP as most Chinese do in private), but I do love China and most Chinese People I knew in China, and I found Chinese companies to often intended to be honest and dedicated to being the best in the market and tried to be o be loyal to their customers. Many Chinese love and respect their American, Aussies and European customers (And dislike and distrust their government's Geo-political policies), but as a matter of course, do fall victim to Chinese cultural challenges of trying to deliver Aussie, American or European expectations of quality and customer service.
I think your approach of communication is a good one Andy, and perhaps if people who have experienced quality control issues can come forward with more details, you as a possibly respected foreigner might be able to help your suppliers make sense of what's going on and apply a bit of European insights and guidance. That way you may also be able to glean how reputable and dedicated to quality and customer your suppliers actually are. I found that with Chinese (Northern Chinese generally) that when I explains that I considered them as a business partner and if they made a mistake I wanted help them resolve it rather than be and adversary who was going to beat them up, I often got trust, respect, honesty and effort in return. That, or I got taken advantage by the occasional gang of crooks.
The people selling grade B cells and calling them grade A (99% of the vendors) know what they are doing, and figure everyone else does it. The problem is, what else might they lie about? People report used end of life electric vehicle pulls already being sold as grade A. At least now we are being told that EVE will start putting a B on their QR codes, we will see if that helps.
I can confirm ur writing. Also in the steel industry, the one who work hard and make sometimes something wrong, get punished, the one who always lay in the corner get a promotion for doing nothing wrong. I was for many years in China. Thats really bad how they do that
Thanks for your comments, guys. I'm absolutely with you here and in the next video, I hope I can clear things up a bit as I have learned a lot over the last few days. The so called B-Grade cells are still very good cells, it is just buyers need to adapt their expectations. Everything will be good, we have choices here.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia grade B cells are a good value, just be honest about what you are selling and there is no problem. Speaking as someone who has both grade A and B cells, keep your expectations realistic. Order extra cells when buying grade B so you aren't waiting months extra (if the vendors will even replace them, mostly they just laugh at you and make excuses). Do NOT design your system expecting to get high rates (0.5C) for any period. You don't want a battery that will only last one or two hours anyway. Andy designed his system exactly the correct way, low C rates for sustained periods of time (both charge and discharge). He is an excellent example of how you can get the best use of these cells.
@@john_in_phoenix Thanks a lot John for this great summary.
Hi Andy I just went threw the same thing with Daly bms, I have brought over 10 bms from them.
1 of the 10 played up. Cell number one was showing 3v in the bms but in real life it was 3.2v.
Trying to get it fixed is like pulling teeth from a crocodile 🐊😂.
The said it’s your fault you don’t know what your doing. Send it back we will have a look at it then send it back at your cost. I will never buy a Daly bms ever again.
Good evening, First you have been a huge help and inspriration to me and I'm sure many others, great work and resource. I think I have experience a bad group of batteries, March of 2022 I purchased qty, of 8 304 Eve cells from Docan Power out of Texas. My goal was to build a 4s2p 12 volt replacement of my lead acid set up. Well with the demands of everyday life I recently completed the build. From the start when receiving the batteries I monitored the voltage they came at 3.29 volts all the same made sure I stored at 72 degrees as well. Upon finishing the build I promptly charged them with a new EG4 30 amp charger as required to 100% via the BMS at resting voltage 13.39 volts@12 volts. Set up my Victron Phoniex 1200 inverter to my full size refrigerator. Monitored the BMS unit was using between 123-155 watts on average. Upon monitoring the BMS the battery it performed poorly BMS logged the wattage use as well I stopped the test at 13.25 volts BMS approx. 15% of battery left and BMS logged 2218 watts in a 16 hours mol. I charged last night for the second cycle and going to replicate the test starting tonight, although I'm shocked how poorly the first cycle performed. Any feedback appreciated. Regards Dan
Andy, thanks for raising this and for calling out the suppliers on this issue. Really hoping that these issues are not the new norm going forward.
I don't hope either. We have to be more clear on what they sell and what people expect. I have now learned that there is no A-Grade or B-Grade cells. It will be in the next video. I hope this clears things up and makes it more transparent for both, sellers and customers.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia No Grade A or Grade B is exactly the problem.
Im from Mexico, i changed my old fld batterys for a new LiFePo4 thanks to your experience and videos! Thanks you so much! I think that the people just want a excuse to complain… but i bought mines by Amazon to a Chinese provider… take 2 months the boxes were scratchs but the cells totally fine and working really great
Thanks for all you videos. More information than others, and you're more fun to watch.
What a neat guy you are, I always enjoy your videos. Thank you for standing up for your viewers!
Hi Andy, built my first battery for trailer this weekend. Used your link to Shenzen Quishou and they arrived earlier than expected. Perfect condition. I don’t have the ability to capacity test yet but I’m completely happy with the product at this point. Thank-you for the wealth of info you have provided allowing me to build my first battery!
I purchased 16 - 304ah cells from Qishou after your positive experience with them. There were shipped from the US warehouse and I received them within 1 week, un damaged and properly packaged. I cannot attest to their capacity but I can say that they all matched in voltage and internal resistance.
I hate to say it, but everyone says "matched" as if the vendor did anything other than put a meter on it. Honestly, my grade B cells had 4 of the 16 that were apparently stored more than a year at 100% state of charge (took lessthan 5 amp hours to fill), 264 to 272 amp hours capacity but "matched" voltage and IR with the other 12 that were at 30% state of charge (274 to 281 amp hours capacity). Matched means as much as "grade A", it just means they are not dead.
Andy, you are absolutely spot-on with regards to this issue.
Wait, there is more... 😉
@@OffGridGarageAustralia oh god.....
In discussing this issue people need quantify the problems rather than just say I’m not happy. If a cell is bloated measure it, compare it to the spec sheet and also specify if it was checked before charging or discharging. If you test the capacity how did you test it? What equipment did you use? In this video Andy has addressed Shenzhen Qishou technology (QSO) but people are randomly talking about other companies or not even mentioning the company they had issues with. I purchased 32 280K cells from QSO in April, had an excellent experience buying from them and received all cells in good condition. Prompted by this video, I randomly selected one cell out of the box it arrived in to test (I had not got around to building and testing). I used a ZKETECH EBC-A20 tester charged the cell to 3.65v @5A and then discharged to 2.5v @20A. It tested at 285.8Ah. I will happily provide the csv file from the test if anyone wants it. I also did not mention Andy or the off-grid-garage during the purchase. I will make an effort to test all the cells but @51 hours per cell it’s time consuming.
Thanks a lot for this great comment and sharing your experience with QSO, David. Fantastic result of your own capacity testing and I'm sure all cells will be the same quality. I 100% agree with you that people need to provide more details if they are not happy and give everyone a bit more context around how, why and who.
Next week I'll receive 32 cells from Qishou, I'll let you know what my experience is, thanks for being honest and open!
Thanks Edward. I'm sure they will be fine. How exciting.
I've received the 32 208Ah K series from Qishou, Amy Peng. All resistance and voltage was within range and very close. All cells were physically fine, no dents or buts. So very happy with the delivery. Now waiting on a tester to put them through their paces. Checked QR, most are of mid december, some from februari.
Thank you Andy for talking about the issues. We get what we pay for and this is that. I really appreciate your transparency. I got a 800usd discount from my 36 cells order which makes me feel a bit better but I would not buy cells again and instead go with EG4 server rack batteries.
I have no experience with this vendor or these batteries... but I do find it funny as heck that you still call it the "Peter" inverter.
I am in the US and I ordered 8 280ah cells from Qishou that were delivered from a warehouse here. I recieved them in about 10 days and they are perfect. I tested them with the ZKETECH tester.
Thanks for sharing, Michael!
I love this channel but I don’t understand why anyone is buying anything from these Chinese versions of eBay and Amazon. So many complaints in the comment section about products..
Why do people deal with these people and wonder what your even going to receive . Then you have to argue with some one 12,000 miles away in a broken version of English and get your wings clipped. I don’t understand….
Buy from American sellers or American distributors .. I have spent 20 grand over the last three years on solar gear with almost no issues at all as I ordered tier one gear..When I did need help I got an old fashioned English speaking rep or tech on the “ PHONE” and worked it out….
All I want is timely results in my projects .. not discount products … not and a song and dance when somthing is wrong..jus my opinion…
You do a great job Andy…thank you so much.I have learned a huge amount from your efforts…
Andy, you have a great site, and I really appreciate the hard work and testing you do. I don't have the time or money to order test equipment, so to me your work is invaluable. I'm upgrading my system, and just worked with Amy from Qishou, and order 24 280A batteries. Keep up the great work.
Thanks for sharing and your feedback. I could not find answers to my questions either so I started building up this channel and did all my own testing to better understand who it all works. I'm so glad I can share all this here and have an audience which really appreciates and supports what I'm doing.
Thanks a lot again for your kind words.
Follow up to my post, I have now received my order from Qishou Technology and the order was outstanding. All 24 batteries were flawless, within .01 volts of each other and the internal resistance was perfect also. I worked with Amy Peng who handled all the logistics. They did ship from a California warehouse.
@@shadowmoon7763 thanks s not fort your feedback. That is great and will help others. I think they know we're closely watching them😊
Just to be clear: by the manufacturers standards if a cell that does not fullfill their quality requirements, it is NOT a grade-a cell. If internal resistance, capacity or self-discharge do not meet the standards, those cells get sorted out as grade-b cells, also if cells are to old (if i remember right 6 months after production date, could also be 12 months). They are totally fine to use for a solar battery anyway but it's not ok for Alibaba or Aliexpress dealers to sell them as grade-a cells.
So if cells on Alibaba or Aliexpress would be sold as second life or grade-b cells - that would be totally ok, if the dealers would state that correctly. But they don't. It seemed, that some dealers started with good quality grade-a cells and after gaining a good reputation, they started selling "crap". So you might have to rely on those trustworthy selling agents stated e.g. in the DIY-Solar Forum. Or just do not buy in China directly, get a supplier in your country and pay higher prices (your local supplier has to make for a living of course). Geiz is not alway geil ;).
Got my Aliexpress crappy cells experience with the cells i ordered for my minicamper and going for an Alibaba experience when it comes to the 24V solar battery for my office. Adventure welcome :) - if those cells will also be crappy: i will opt for a german dealer for the incoming 48V solar battery for our families home.
Oh: and chinese dealers on Aliexpress don't give a damn on you complaining. The only thing that might work: spread the word in the forums and on TH-cam on non thustworthy dealers. Share your experience - this is the power of the market ;).
@@LithiumBatteryGuy Grade A or B is all about matching the manufacturers standards. It‘s totally fine to use matched Grad B or good second life cells in your home installation if you do not expect as high currents that are needed in automotive cells for extended time periods. You could handle that with bigger battery setups to share the load between different battery packs (just like Andy does). And automotive cells might be designed to be more crash protected. In my eyes it‘s not worth buying them, because i don‘t need that in the home where i live (northern Germany).
But of course: using grade B or second life cells is not install and forget. You should monitor those cells more closely than grade A cells. If you‘re not ready to do so, don‘t use them :). Also: second life cells that are below 70% of nominal capacity (they are offered on Aliexpress atm) are not really worth buying and using.
@@LithiumBatteryGuy Ok, so i understand "automotive grade" is the new "grade-a" :). Weird.The 288-295 Ah should be the normal capacity for grade A 280Ah rated cells. I always have been thinking that 285Ah for a brandnew grade A LF280K cell are a little bit on the low side. My expectation was around 290+ Ah.
Well i'll gain new experience later this year, when i will order cells for my 24V setup.
Oh, and for a RV 12V setup the next thing i might order are Winston Thundersky cells. LiFeYPo4 cells, which can be charged down to -20°C (useful here in Germany, for Australia i doubt it might be nessesary?).
There is pretty much no A- or B-Grade cells. These automotive cells can only pass or fail the strict test conditions.
What I’ve learnt dealing with resellers on these platforms. You need to be specific! leave nothing to interpretation. Years ago I ordered “brand new, never used, a grade cells” they were delivered bloated! But I got what I asked for. Didn’t specify “not bloated” they assume you know they’re resellers. Be specific.
Btw the bloated cells I got?
6months and 40cycles on they’re still performing perfectly.
Thanks for sharing. And your cells will still keep performing well for many years to come. I cannot see an issues with them at all.
Good one as usual Andy. Thanks very much.
You now have me just a little bit worried- my batteries are on the way.
Fingers crossed they’re good.
They will be fine, Dave. Don't worry.
Brilliant observations, thank you Andy.,
Very welcome
I had my experience with a seller at AliExpress (Not Quishu). They sent me used cells. At the end I got a refund of 17€ because the cells were "dirty". The seller simply claimed repeatedly that the batteries were new and that my capacity measurements were wrong. AliExpress decided in their favor. And that was it.
Had the same experience with a internal blue ray drive. A company send me a12! Year old drive, it died after 3 weeks and Ali said it worked as I received it - must have been my fault because it died. It. was an replacement for the blue ray drive of my 12 year old drive of my IBM Q180 pc…….
Chinese are getting more and more fiefs. We definitively have to produce more and more in Western countries, China is no more a good deal. I was during 30 years. Everything has an end.
I would not recommend buying batteries from AliExpress. They hide behind the platform and most of the time AliExpress decides in the sellers favour. I spend thousands on AE and had only a few claims luckily. But some of them were just pure scam like the 12TB hard drive I bought which was in fact 6x2TB hard drive. AE said it's OK even nothing was written in the description about splitting it up. I argued about a 30m water hose which comes in 30x 1m pieces... still they would not refund me.
My experience on Alibaba is far better even the prices are a bit higher.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yes, I agree. Since then I never order there anything worth more than 50€. Usually small electronics items that cost only a few €.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I argued about a 30m water hose which comes in 30x 1m pieces
LOL power 1000 !
Hi, I like your work, also, you have been getting better from a technical perspective, great work, with regards to cells that do not meet specifications, I have two comments, first, end users do not always have the correct test equipment or experience, so some, not all, of the complaints may be from users that are not testing properly. Also, when manufacturers have different batches of product, they all do not have the same specifications after testing. As an example, in the solar panel industry, you will sometimes see three panels being offered with the same dimensions, yet one panel is (as an example) 300 watts, then 305 watts, then 310 watts, this is from the same batch that tested from low to high, so they label them at different watt ratings. Even though it is the same product from a particular production run. Maybe the battery cell manufacturers should do the same thing. Rate the cells in an honest way. If they test at 208 amps, that would be a 205 amp. If they rate at 211 amps, that would be a 210 amp cell etc. No one likes to get a product that under performs. I like to get what I paid for or a little extra.
Thanks Bert. That is exactly correct. Even within the strictest test conditions and results, we have variations in capacity and IR with these cells. And this is totally fine. I have learned so much in the last two weeks as doing more research on this topic, that I will make a follow up video to get this info out there. I hope this will make things a lot clearer.
I am now "nervously" awaiting a delivery in a week or two weeks via a warehouse here in the EU.
There is also a big blue zkteck tester charger coming from a different supplier. I got a bad vibe from some sellers on Ali and went elsewhere.
200amp Seplos Bms has arrived already, very impressed with build quality.
The whole area is a minefield really.
yes, you are right, the whole aliexpress solar power thing has become a minefield and you have only 1 mine sweeper to proctect you: paypal
I got mine from Poland recently. Didn't test capacity but not bloated, and all look good.
so Seplos loofs fine? Did you tried canbus communication ?
Please let us know how were your cells, I'm just about to order from the EU warehouse myself.
@@janbroz4681 All but one of the first 16 cells now tested with 40 L charger tester.
Charged to 3.65v rested for 30mins discharged to 2.5v and re-charged to 3.3v for storage.
Test temp ranged from 14c to 27c
Results for 280ah Eve cells ranged from 267ah to 279
Currently none were 280ah
So many great points raised here again Andy, and reading through the comments (not all!) it would seem that buying Chinese batteries is always going to be a risk, or any overseas supplier and a few here to, for that matter.
I would not be surprised if a lot of these testing setups pictures we see that the vendor sends you, may well be photo’s of actual testing facilities, but possibly not even theirs! I’m sure there are a lot of on-sellers of Manufacturers B grade cells. Love ur vids , you always ask the right questions.
Thanks for sharing your findings Andy.
Thanks Trev. There is more to come in the next video.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia looking forward to it!
Thank again Andy for your meaningfull videos !!
Hi Andy thanks for your support,I have had further contact with Quisho.. Concerning my problem.. With the batteries supplied.. I await to see if they compensate with what they promised, I will keep you imformed. Ps.. I trust all your reviews 100%.... And like I said your my favourite German.. You and Henning Wehn.. You both make me laugh and I enjoy hanging out in your off grid garage.... I nearly choked on my biscuit.. With your pronunciation attempts on.. That inverter 😂😂😂
Just got my 16x 280AH cells from Amy at Qishou. Ordered 10 days ago from USA warehouse. Cells were perfect packed very well. They were all 3.28 volts each, every one. I am going to capacity test them once we finally get some sun so I can charge them up fully.
Great video Andy. I have four 48v packs. Different sellers. All grade A. A year ago I knew nothing. Along with you, I've learned. I've swapped out 2 cells. It was scary. I was careful to discharge the pack to 2.5 and the new cell to 2.5. The JKBMS did its thing in balancing all new up to full charge. It was tricky bring the other packs online. The 2 cells I had actually shorted. Jkbms saved the pack by shutting down. Docan in Texas (alibaba) did not honor the replacement warranty. They were top rated. Lots of testing and videos exchanged. I purchased replacements that work fine. They blamed environmental then bms then not compressed. Bottom line is you get nothing after you purchase. Server racks are about double $$ and not serviceable. I'm bejng experimental with grade B cells now. Cheaper and will probably outlast the Lithium age of excitement. I run everything 80/20 soc using a coulomb meter.. Other people diyers are getting smarter too. Continue on Andy. Its 106f in So California. I'm ready for our blackouts.
Hello Kevin, I'm about to build 6 280AH Battery banks (96 cells) for my 20 KW solar panels (45 panels). I have received the JBD BMS and also purchased Batrium BMS as well. Do you have any recommendations? One difference with Andy is that I will be compressing the batteries and will attempt to connect the Batrium BMS to the Victron CerboGX Canbus.
Can you share your experience with the build? Any recommendations? Thx
Why did you buy a JK and a Batrium?
Thank a lot for sharing @Kevin Grube. I wonder why they shorted though. Never heard about that happening. A good example why you always should have a BMS.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia as far as the cells shorting; I tested all cells individually and top balanced and verified resistance all prior to installing. I think one cell just went bad. The second cell was next in line to the one that shorted. It eventually went bad a few discharge/charge cycles later. I was shocked. Temperature ok and only charge/discharge .1C (point 1). Replaced the cells and all is good. Bad cell only lasted about 5 cycles 80/20. I guess it just happens. Bloated to double the size but did not blow.. Bent the busbar. If I would have compressed I think there would have been a disaster. I have now shortened my bms setting for charge/discharge over current time. 'Stay safe, stay charged'. 🤣🤓
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The JBD BMS was the only one the battery provider had. (that was 2 months ago). After digging a bit into the BMSs that were compatible with Victron, I opted to get the Batrium as well. It's a bit of money, I know, but I am interested in experimenting a BMS that is controlled by the Victron CerboGX. One important note is that the Batrium has balance leads but can't disconnect the batteries and reconnect them at will. Batrium recommends placing a remote shunt trip switch to disconnect the batteries only in the event of a major problem.
I should be receiving my batteries and the parts in one month. I could share my experience. Your videos are amazing as far as the many aspects. Many of your recommendations and ideas will be implemented in my build.
Thanks Andy. Great vid as always.
Andy, i suggest you invest in some good insulated tools. Safety is important! You know how many current flows when shorting Lifepo4. Anyway, thank you for sharing in TH-cam. I really like your video,s!
I think there are two issues here.
1. Most of us do not have a high quality individual cell tester/cycler. So we do not really know in most cases, short of educated guesses or physical damage.
2. More and more people are getting into big battery systems unlike anytime before, and as such, there are many very bold first timers without a background in energy, electronics, basic electrical maths, etc.
Combination of the two and yeah there is going to be some bad data. A lot of the negative reviews seem to be from first timers who do not have much data or information to even give us an idea of what the issue is, unless it is a physical defect. Probably more of us with large systems should invest in a quality cell tester.
I have found a source for the 40 amp tester for $150 including shipping if I buy 20 of them, but I already purchased one before Andy even. Truly ideal to test cells, but most places want 80 to 100 dollars extra for shipping. Perhaps I should ask on the forum if there are enough people interested. Everyone is always saying "my cells are perfect", you ask what they mean, and it turns out they mean it has voltage and no dents.
Dear Andy Dear All
i would like to keep you informed that i received the cells.
The packages were in good condition some little cuts in the angle of the boxes cardboard, nothing worrying.
The cells were protected by the foam and every one was in pristine condition.
No dents, no bulging in the blue valve. Excellent.
I checked the codes ALL of the cells were produced between jan and mars 2022 and measured internal resistance and voltage: almost all of them were
in the 0,19 mΩ (only one was 0,18) and about 3.2949 in voltage. i will do a capacity test in the next days.
i would like to thank Andy and all of you for sharing his and your experience with QSO with the rest of us .
If capacity test comes out ok i think that
for the time being I would recommend QSO to my friends but i agree that it will best the sellers should label them storage cells.
Thanks to Andy and to all of you. please keep sharing your experience .
Dear Andy. Thanks for your work. Thanks to you i ordered on the 5th of Mai 16 cells 280K from Qishou. Waiting for the delivery. i will keep you informed how it goes.Thanks again
Also nervously waiting for 16 no., 280 Ah cells from Qishou
If it calms you guys I received 16 304ah's last month and no issues to report. It feels like a lot of it is luck of the draw with transport.
The boxes I received did have some cardboard ripped but theres so much foam that the batteries geniunly looked brand new. My QSO contact also reached out to check everything was OK.
@@mattjayne5231 China or USA warehouse ?
@@onthelake9554 China
Very nice system setup!!
Thanks!
I like the way you deal with the supplier topic. Its always good if you address such issues in an open way. In case you are in an "exposed" situation by running a popular TH-cam channel its probably not easy to get the real experience from any supplier. If they know who you are - either because you tell them - or because they find out by themselves - they will make sure you get the right product. So its good to hear from other buyers how their experiences are. Probably currently the demand for battery cells is huge. So the market has changed compared to the situation when you bought your batteries. In such a situation it might not be insane to believe that the behaviour of a supplier changes to adapt to the situation - for one reason or another. @Andy: I guess it would be extremely helpful if you could collect the feedback from this video and sum it up in one of your upcoming videos.
Thanks for your comment. I'm reading through all the comments right now and trying to extract all the info as far as I can. It's a lot though...
I ordered 40 32700 cells from Liitikala. 3 of them we're with very high impedance. The rest unmatched. Never again!
I order x16 from Quishou. They arrived safe and sound, working well. However when I tried to order extra bus bars (12) on a seperate order it was a very different story.
Ultimately they refused citing, expensive freight, high risk product that custom won’t allow to pass, their logistics company was unable to process the order.
They are prepared to send the addition bus bars if I orders more cells…..
Well, you can order these busbars from AliExpress directly with no problems with shipping. We have choices here if one supplier does not want to play the game.
Same busbars as they come with the cells: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_A1sEgv
If possible, you should order more cells and have them shipped to your friends and then check them.
I've got a second account 😉
@@OffGridGarageAustralia i meant to order it under different name and address, so they can't pick and choose good cells based on your information.
They just need to be truthful and accurate. I'm sure we can deal if things are just out of spec. HI ANDY.
Good morning Andy. As a test, what about ordering some cells using a different name and address to see if you have a different experience. Keep up the good work and stay safe and charged
Yes, that is a great idea. I need to wait until I need more batteries though. I'm pretty full at the moment 😊
Andy 👋. I’ve ordered 3X 16 s 280 ah from Quishou. All was good. And now I’m waiting 4X 16 s new cells. …. All was good except the shipping tracking that does not work! I will do a capacity test again jus to be sure. It on my point. All good!
EVE carry out full testing of each cell and provide capacity, internal resistance etc.
It's a dead give away these are factory rejects when the reseller needs to carry out their own testing.
Yes, correct. But there is more to it... next video...
I have ordered hundreds of cells from Qishou. Never an issue with a single cell.
Hundreds... wow. Hence maybe they take special care of you 😊
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I have wondered about that very possibility... 🤔
the 4 newton-meters torque spec is important. thanks for calling it out. 4nm = 35 inch-pounds.
Thanks for information Andy. Quite worrying if one doesn't have testing equipment or the full knowledge to test.
It is not as bad as I have just learned in the past two days. You will see this in the next video. Everything will be fine 😉
i had a really crushed corner on one cell.. they send replacement still testing the damaged one... no trouble at all... nice set up rolling blackouts soon in season
Thanks !
Hi Andy, My expansion valve had traces of fluid. the ceal itself was not broken but the blue part had some fluid marks. QSO said it was all fine and accepted it because of your good experience and I'm new in this. I had this on 3 of the 20 cells. I tought it was maybe of upside down transport.
It should not make a difference if they have been transported upside down. There should be no liquid or marks of liquid under the blues seal. Was there any signs of liquid in the boxes?
The cells you buy are electric vehicle factory test rejects. The ones that pass are grade A, and are indeed more expensive. The grade A cells come with factory test results and always exceed capacity. The grade B cells are a good value for solar storage, just don't use high C rates. I have both. The rumor is that EVE will soon be marking "B" on future cells of this type. That just means the seller will find some way to cover up or remove the QR code, but at least you know then. There are only 4 places I have found where you can buy true grade A cells, and one of them is EVE. I refuse to buy grade A cells from most places, because I know they are lying, what else will they decide to lie about? That they are new and unused?
very clean setup
It took a long time. I cannot stand cables hanging around anywhere.
As a competitor, this is exactly what I would do - find videos of reviews of my competition and provide negative comments and I would paid some service to upvote and reply to it... Nice trick.
I would also make sure to send the best cells possible to anyone doing reviews. Generally speaking, you can usually tell if someone writing a comment is a native English speaker if the comment is long enough.
@@john_in_phoenix this is what I did to improve my odds of getting good cells. I claimed I was documenting my build on my TH-cam channel so the world could see how great their batteries were. Incentives work better than threats.
@@paulfrederiksen5639 I just bought them from a vendor selling grade A cells. I paid more, but I got more.
@@john_in_phoenix yes, but I pad less and got more. It’s all about how much risk you are willing to take on and how you manage that risk. Each person has to decide this for themselves. Objectively, no path is completely void of risk, neither is there such a thing as too much risk.
It's good of you to address this issue as an area of possible concern. It is possible you were sent cherry-picked items or treated better than the average customer due to your high visibility, but it's very hard to prove one way or the other. In the same way, it's nearly impossible to verify the claims of people saying they got substandard items or poor service.
And we have so many positive comments here now where people actually confirmed having received the same great quality...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia True - makes me think most have had a good experience and there are a few unlucky ones. The tendency of people is to complain when there is a problem and say nothing if things go as expected (as they say, no news is good news). When you ask for your viewers to comment on how their experience was if they dealt with these sources they are more than happy to share.
I ordered 4x 280 ah from Quishou. The shipping was very long and the QR code was over a year old but the cells looked brand new and tested 281 ah. I did the test with the 4 batteries in series, so they probably had more if I had tested them individually. In the end I am very satisfied with Quishou
I ordered cells before from Shenzhen Basen Technology Co., Ltd. no problem. Last I ordered 16 280Ah cells from Basen 2 months ago. I received 14 in good condition and two damaged on bottom, one small damaged and one same size damaged as in your video. I contacted Sheila from Basen and send photo of damaged cells. In short if the cells have normal voltage and internal resistance they told me is OK to use them in battery bank. This is part of message exchange.
1. the internal of the battery is electrolyte , so for this situation, it may only damaged the appearance of the Aluminum shell if there is no leak at present
2. We checked with engineer, they said you can test the battery first, if the data is in normal range, then it is not affect to use it.
3. We still offer 5 years warranty, when the battery meet some problem without any human damaged or wrong operation.
Should I use cells like that or insist to get replacement. It is easy for you because of TH-cam.
Thumbs up and subscribed!
just have to say this, I don't care if it's built in the same factory with exacting tolerances NOTHING ever will be the exact same.
i have been a mechanic for almost 20 yrs you can buy 2 identical looking cars, one may never have any problems the other will have constant issues. some people are way too over expecting, and really need to lower those expectations a tad. i see it in reviews all the time and life must be really aweful for those that can not get over their own over expecting.
Some people expect that when they buy a pound of beef from the butcher they will get a pound of beef not half a pound or 2oz. My experience with Varicore shows no intention of supplying product that actually performs as they say it does.
I do admire your cabling and cabinets. I dont have these skills.
Hi Andy, I also got cells (Exliporc) that didn't have 280Ah, the worst had just 260Ah. Then statements come, load it 3-5 times, then it will be fine. But it's funny, the statements by TH-camrs about their cells and what you then read in DIY forums what other people get is striking. If the cells all have about the same capacity for a good price, you can live with it. But cells with such different values will eventually cause problems in the battery pack, even if not immediately.
How I get the battery app
WHERE ARE THOSE CHINESE SUPPLIERS AND THEIR REPLIES TO ANDY's INVITATION ?
Where are the answers from the famous QUISHU and SHENZEN BASEN DEALER, at least I am waiting for an excuse from shenzen basen regarding the 2 year old battery built in 2018 and shipped in december 2020 ?
I am pretty disappointed that all those battery selling girls from season to whomever have disappeared, speechless to talk.
I simply have just only 1 supplier or better 1 girl left who has not been cheating so far regarding to the forums and I will purchase a 16S pack soon, but not from Quishu for sure due to this open and clear video that shows the independence of Andi.
Chapeau Andi !
Well done !
Still miles ahead of the messy lead acid batteries:)
Yes, absolutely. It's not a real problem but we need to make people aware to meet their expectations.
Hi Andy, loving the content mate, where do you get your cable trunking from?
I feel for you Andy, I am sure that you have always done things in good faith and with the best intentions. It should be a revelation that maybe, just maybe there was an honest reseller from China, but alas it seems not. Very sad.
It is not that easy. If they would their customers know what they can expect, there would be no problem. I cover this in my next video. Have to do a follow up 😊
I'm planning to buy about the same amount you have maybe a few more, to power my home,
But I'm thinking I'll wait a couple years, hopefully the price will go down, my batteries are fine for a while anyway, I think a good bms and good charge settings will help imperfect cells, not cure them, but make some useable!
Nothing wrong with being frogging crazy 😜
Nice !!!
6 month ago I ordered 16 LF280K cells from "Dongguan Lightning Energy Technology", they all had ~285+Ah on my tests. 2 month ago I ordered 20 cells from same person (Hayley) and they all have ~275Ah, inner resistance were equal good. BUT 10Ah less consistently. I claimed but I get not answer so far back.
I have purchased two sets of 8 280ah cells from this same supplier. While I am presently happy with the performance of these cells, I am not happy with the fact that none of the QR codes made any sense. I am convinced that these cells are probably grade B 304ah cells as I am getting 290-298ah out of them. I think it is important to have realistic expectations when purchasing from Chinese distributors. I lived in China for 20 years and even worked for a few years for a manufacturer and distributor of CNC machine tools. It was an eye-opening experience to say the least. Suffice it to say that the only reason I purchased from China was that I was willing to take what I knew to be a major risk, much in the same way you would designate a small portion of your investment portfolio to high risk investment. I would NOT recommend this path to anyone who could not afford this level of risk.
Great comments, guys. Thanks for sharing.
Hi Andy and everyone else! Has been a subscriber for a long time and ordered cells at the end of April and got them yesterday. When I did internal resistance measurement, I got on their 304Ah cell, I got 0.31mOhm as an average of 40 cells. Is measuring the capacity of the first cell to see if it keeps what was promised. But as you say in the video, the internal resistance is not the whole truth. Will return when I have measured the capacity of some cells. *Update* Have done capacity test on two cells so far, and they passed with good margin. Cell 1 - 316Ah/1022Wh Cell 2 - 315Ah/1019Wh.
Its so grateful video as previous. Could you please share or recommend good supplier for batteries
Hi Andy. Like many of your viewers, I ordered 280 EVE’s. One of them arrived dented. Amy organized and sent to me a replacement cell from the EU stock. So my case is resolved. I do not have a capacity tester, so can not check that anyway :)
Thanks for your feedback. That is good to hear. They will be fine for your storage project.
your most important word in this video was: "snapshot".
yes all tests can only show the cell behavior at a single point in time.
and off course our DIY test equipment is mostly not really precise.
all cells will drift over time. and due to this fact i simply random combine my 18650 cells into 60p blocks. i dont spend much time to equalize the overall capacity by combining strong and weak cells to exact the same values. but i use continious capacitive 5A active balancers. since 3 years, i have never seen a diviation more than 10mV for more than a few days.
best regards
michael
Yeah, even if they are perfectly matched right now, it will be very different in a year. At the end it does not really matter. They are still great batteries for that price and you get a lot out of it.
To do a charge back on your credit card you just need to fill in a form from your bank, they then bill the supplier and credit your card. The supplier can argue the toss, but generally you can counter. There are time limits and with the amount of time it is taking for the goods to arrive etc it may be too late. But worth looking into. When covid first hit we had a big holiday all booked, airlines would not refund at the time, but bank did a charge back and they did not argue !
Cc companies will want tracking for sending cells back. Lot of $$. Been there done that. Even Alibaba trade assurance will want you to send things back
Greetings from Poland from the Paragon_DIY garage :)
Thank you!
Hi can you please upload your jk bms settings thank you you have been such an inspiration I’m now using 100% renewable energy with solar and batteries and I have done this all from following your videos
I haven't made the video about the JK settings yet. I should do it soon, ey?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yes please it would be much appreciated
Hi Andy, unless we buy directly from the manufacturers, EVE, CATL, BYD, Etc, in larger quantities, we are getting lesser quality cells from companies like Basen and QSO. That's Fact, and how companies like this exist. Here in the DIY solar world we get the chance to make use of factory rejects, sold on to companies at lower cost. That's the business model. we're not manufacturing cars, lets appreciate when companies stand by their warranties.
👍💡un petit commentaire de France où il fait très chaud 🍻
Most cells on Alibaba are B cells always have been, the sellers are not honest about it. EVE is now printing a B on the QR code on these B cells, so new batches it will be obvious and the sellers can't lie about it anymore.
Great hahaha…
Yes, I have seen these so called 'B-Grade' cells. There is more to it...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia How so? The cells you have are probably B cells. When I checked with your supplier, and pressed them they said they can get A grade but they are much more expensive.
@@uksa007 Officially, there are no A- or B- grade cells. There is no standard or test which distinguishes between that.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Correct, the manufacturer determines if they meet the specifications for A grade, if not they are removed from the batch and sold as B grade. A grade cells come with a test report.
There is no A- or B- officially.
Sellers buy B grade, usually do an ESR test and call them A or A- grade.
Love watching your vids. How come you didn't parallel cells first, then series? That method is more efficient (and every percent matters when your running out of battery, right?) balances things out more, reduces the effect of poor cells somewhat and requires much less BMS action?
I would've guessed that if you did 3 cells in parallel and then each set of three in series with one 16s Bms instead of 3 x 16s batteries that the top balancing times would take absolutely ages.
Youd be balancing the sets of 3 in parallel with 2amps. And the set of 3 would be a 3.5v 900a battery.
That's my guess as to why that config is less common.
Gut erklärt!
Well explained!
Das finde ich auch 😁
… inkl Andy’s Humor 😇
what humor? That's a dead serious channel!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ja, glauben wir Ihnen aufs Wort. Wir wollen dem Meister ja nicht widersprechen 😂
Ye, we believe you totally , we won’t argue with our master 😂
Andy you can wrap your tool with a shrinking tubed
I ordered 32 grade A cells, 4 were swollen, one arrived reading 0.32 volts, filed my claim and was told I would have to send back the cells and then they would consider sending replacements. I offered to buy a single cell and just replace the one "dead" cell and they refused to sell me a single cell saying they only sold them in 4 pieces. I ended up contacting them about specifically buying another 4 cells that matched my previous 280ah cells and they sent me 277 ah cells. I found a new supplier, with stock in the U.S.
Who are you using in the US? I'm looking to purchase some cells and was planning on using the folks Andy uses. But then i started seeing quite a bit of negative comments in the diy solar forum plus Andy's video, so i'm definitely looking at alternatives. Kudos to Andy for raising this.
From which supplier? We need to specify this clearly so we all remain on the same page.
This is when you should file a charge back through your credit card.
@@john_in_phoenix how do you do that.
@@LithiumBatteryGuy you sell in OZ? Batteries? If so what kind.
Hi Andy, I have just finished an shutdown at Braemar so there is an extra 160Mw available to the grid and on my way down near you at Swanbank to complete another shutdown for a further 385Mw. I have just ordered 52 LF280K from Amy and was given 2 prices Tested capacity above 290Ah,price 112usd/pcs
No test capacity 275ah-280Ah,price $108/pcs The plot thickens???
USA or China warehouse ?
Easy choice right ?
@@onthelake9554 China
Glen, the media would indicate there are a lot of shutdown capacity at the moment? Does that feel true? What's the reasoning on the front lines? (Other than the market bending: Why run 10 generators for $30/MWh, when I can run 9 for $300/MWh)
Hi Andy,
I've had the following exchange with Amy on Alibaba:
Me: Hi Amy, quick question in the light of the recent Off-grid Garage video.
Given EVE sell their cells at almost twice the price you do, there has to be some sort of quality assurance/control element that your cells didn't pass.
I've worked in industry and know that different customers have different tolerances (and different costs based on tolerances).
It would be interesting to know what tolerances your cells are failing on from the manufacturer's standards, or if you even get the information before buying.
I think a certain amount of transparency would be useful in allowing buyers to make informed decisions.
Thanks, David
Amy: Hi David
EVE is generally available only to companies and not to individual users.
It is really expensive to buy from EVE, but China Trade Corporation also needs profits. China Trading Corporation is also an EVE customer. The EVE factory mainly connects enterprises and automotive factories. Therefore, for retail, China Trading Corporation can help them develop some markets
===============
I'm not convinced, as even large orders are way more expensive from EVE before shipping etc. They have to be more transparent about this.
Hi, i have had a big issue with the jk bms, i bought 2 of them from hangstore i think they are called and both have failed within a few days of each other, i mailed them and got a rubbish message back saying i need to post them back to china AT MY COST and they will try to fix them, i live in the uk. Post from here to china is around £100 😱 so i cannot pay that, the bms are now in the garbage, i am not happy. I think you get sent the best quality because you have this channel so they want you to give good feedback, to them this is free advertising!
Making bus bars myself at the moment, I have been putting heatshrink over the middle portion, to reduce (not eliminate obviously!) the risk of explosive "tool drop" events. I guess it may insulate them a little, but in this particular use case it wouldn't make a difference.
The first eight cells that I got from AliExpress we're definitely grade b they were not matched for internal resistance or capacity some cells were 250 amp most were 278 to 280
That's more than a bit poo, isn't it? :(
AE is not a good place to buy cells from...
This is great!. Can you tell me where did you purchase plastic cover for your batteries?
totally applaud you for being upstanding and voicing integrity issues of trust ..
gotta love winter in the hinterland
as ex capaitical intensive manufacturing technician .. the constant quality control sytem and all associated standard deviations etc.. crap costs money .. circa 25-15 years ago manufacturers cheapen the cost overhead by making it the responsabilty of consumer complaint driven.. which they know, means most are very poor at interlanguage and negotiation when THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY and u have their defective product .. then often they say .. send it back ?! .. lmao .. all the tricks .. totally aplaud you for being upstanding and voicing integrity issues of trust .. but they are in the bussiness of making MONEY... smiles not trust .. i have had these very debates in the boardrooms of company i last managed .. the owners told me that stick to pushing buttons and creating solutions because this was about profit .. not manufacturing ..?! short term vision and we do not know that these very companies next year wont close and swing to making GELION batteries and have no issue ignoring majority at future problem solving complaining consumers in another country .. we have been divided .. and our power to ask for fair outcomes has diminished to almost insignificant .. a most important issue to many who follow via affiliate or associational links .. keep up the excellent work my friend .. want to give u a freindly hug as this issue is dear to my heart .. and the last few days !.. your stack should be humming with energy ...lol gotta love winter in the SEQ hinterland
would you be willing to cut the blue shrink wrap from that damaged corner to show the metal? I am curious if any breaks. if no i would assume battery still good. thanks for sharing
Off topic question. I have 12 solar panels that are the same. Currently I have 8 panels in 2 strings that are in series. Then parallel in a combiner box on the way to the charge controller all mounted static to a fence. Would like to make a 3rd string mounted on a 2 axis tracker in series then paralleled into the first 2 strings at combiner box. Would the 8 solar panels mounted on my fence negate the benefit of the 3rd string getting more power from tracking? Hope that makes sense!
Thank you for your videos Andy
Do you have any batteries and bms for sale?
Thanks, I don't sell any equipment, sorry.
If you buy direct from EVE you don't get graded stock cells, Not Grade A or B etc you get BRAND NEW FRESHLY MADE to order cells. Hence higher cost too as smaller quantities. Graded is usually tested bulk purchased new old stock that may have been stored for a while by the re seller. Nothing wrong with it but not as fresh as NEW right off the production line cells.
That is correct. It will be in my next video.
I wonder if you could do with an indicator LED inside the shelf of each battery? So you can remind yourself if you forgot to turn off the breaker?
Shenzhen Basen & Quishou both claim to have 280K in Germany or Poland for fast delivery 1-2 weeks.
Anybody tried this in these days?
Thanks to the community!
Double square THANKS to Andy & his humor :-)
My first battery came from QSO in China by train but was stuck on the border in Belarus for a while when the war in Ukrane started. It came through with some delay. For my second battery (16 cells again) I was thinkin to order from Europ but it was more expensive so ordered from China again since I have time .
I ordered 304s to UK and they came from a China not sure if it's different story for 280s or maybe you can request from Europe but mine came from China (took about 6 weeks to UK) and tracking was all over the place. Said it would track one's reached UK but still said "waiting for parcels" when they turned up at my door. Thats likely more transport company than qso problem though
I've ordered LF280K cells from Qishou two weeks ago. They came to germany by DPD from a Polish warehouse, 5 days lead time. Basen told me they have also have a EU warehouse in Poland, but they were out of stock at the time of my inquiy.
Andy, if you want another battery I'm haoppy to order another 16 cells to my place in Sydney on your behalf then forward them to you as a secret shopper experience if you like :)
(at your expense, I"m not rich enough to donate a battery!)
Thanks so much for the info, Andy. I've yet to buy my 2nd set of 16 cells so I'll probably go directly to EVE.
Edit: I just checked EVE prices and they're almost the double. Ouch.
This should be a clear sign all the cheap Lifepo4 are just grade B
AEMO NEM data dashboard over the last week seemed to show NSW taking much of the surplus grid generation from other states. I still don’t understand why QLD and VIC were being told to conserve power.