Thank you for this video and the information. We sell solutions for both users, DIY with storage grade and others that want EV Grade. I think after testing for both, about 80% of grade B cells are basically as good as EV Grade, however, about 20% can be potentially a problem. The real issue is consistency. We can not guarantee all of our customers would get good products with grade B/storage grade, some customers would get problematic cells and would be angry. Because of this we only sell EV grade, it makes sure everyone is getting perfect cells. If you have the time and don't mind doing a little bit of DIY work, storage grade cells work great (this usually involves ordering extra cells/spare). On the flip side if you want to set and forget you can not go wrong with EV grade. EVE is currently working on the official adapter for the LF304 cell, currently only the LF280K is available with their official adapter. As soon as they release the official adapter for the LF304 we will start carrying these. Thanks again Off grid Garage, the most informative battery channel on youtube!
Thanks to Andy I got onto the SFK kits and just love them. They arrived very quickly and in perfect condition. Well thought out and engineered, easy to assemble, everything neat and tidy. 16 x 320Ah LiitoKala (little Koala?) batteries took a bit off persuading to fit, but the end result is just beautiful. My only complaint is this, you forgot to include a couple of buckets of sunshine from California or Louisiana or wherever you get it from, to fill up the batteries. Just went through winter solstice here in Australia, very short days, very little to no input where I am. My ageing SLA battery bank won't last for ever so I'll be back for more. Great work guys, love the product, keep up the good work.
@@NedKLee What ? You are using the most famous fake cell maker Liitokala ? They are always over advertising , there product never met the specs and I can remember their refitted 32650 cells with 7000 mAh advertised while they had printed on the sleeve first 6000 and later 6500 mAh , while the first test result showed about 5500 mAh max, but starting from 5100 mAh. The EVE had 282 Ah with the same test rigg and charger. Here LiitoKala is dead in our forum.
but that 20% maybe or most likely unidentifyable sleepers that seem to be good but might pop up and suck suddenly after 4 years of use are an uncalcuble risk for a dealer considering that after selling 1000 or over 5 years 5.000 would mean, that 1000 could show issues within 5 years that could force the dealer to replace . A nightmare for customers and dealers, cause you can not really prepare for that, who would store 20% as replacement over 5 years that might not be needed or all might be needed. I hope that Andreas will talk about this topic too even though he usually is the lucky one like all the other yt channels which get not first grade but quite good cells or above average pretty well selected.
@@typxxilps My apologies for not gaining your permission first to buy and use these batteries. After being successfully off grid, stand alone Solar using Chinese made SLA's for nearly 10 years, this is my first foray into LFP's. I've had these batteries for a few months, charged and discharged them and they checked out to MY satisfaction, 320 Ah. The batteries I put in the SFK boxes are totally irrelevant to the SFK product, that's my responsibility completely and that does not detract from the quality of the SFK product, which I'm really happy with and were the reason for my comment. If you've had problems with the Little Koala batteries, vote with your feet, don't buy their product. I don't know where here is or which forum you're referring to but I suggest you tone down your rhetoric.
Thanks a lot Ashan, you brought a lot of good information on the table. Hence I included your videos for everyone to watch and understand. I'll include your version 3.5 and 4 in one of the following videos as well. I like the spacers 😃
I live in Hawaii and could not get anybody to ship the batteries to me. They all kept saying that where I lived was to remote, even though we have UPS and FedEx here in the jungle where I live on the big island. I had to ask about a dozen different places on aliexpress, finally I got one of them to inquire what the problem was, long story short I had to pay an extra $800 to have 16 batteries shipped from china, the good news is it only took about 14 days. Now I am waiting for the rest of my scavenger hunt of items so that I can build my 8 s 2 p battery system. I am doing it that way because all of my lead acid items I have are set up for a 24 volt system. It makes it more complex, but I am learning a lot from this channel! Thanks much Andy!
The major problem is not that the capacity may be off slightly. It's the fact that I do not think the Lifespan of these batteries will be nearly the same as a True Grade A Cell. One of the major reasons why cells fail testing is because the trimming process of the Aluminum and copper strips within the cells called "Slitting" comes out jagged and not smooth, these jagged edges is what will puncture the separator and lead to the cells having a high internal discharge rate. This problems becomes worst with each discharge and charge as it wears and then punctures the separator. This is why batteries are put through an X-Ray to see if the Slitting process is perfect in all the cells. If it is not perfect they are rejected. Keep in mind this is the Number one reason why Cells Fail, so it is most likely the issue with most of the cells that are auctioned.
The life of these batteries won't even equal that of decent quality lead carbon batteries. But hey, if you need a 2nd job babysitting your home's electrical supply then home built LiFePO4 is the way to go.
I just used the capacity as an example in this video as most people understand this easily. There are certainly more parameters which are being tested. I personally think, most batteries will fail the testing because of internal resistance. And this is not so much a concern in storage applications.
The problem with this batteries comes when you push them above 0.5c wich is usuall in EV at this rates they spread amps, in a home we don’t really push that hard and also houses don’t move. There a people who are running diy batteries for many years ago and they are ok. For the price you can buy double your capacity needings and run pararell so your dividing also in two your power needs.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You are right, it only needs someone to do the hard start and the rest is easy.. Hahaha.. As I said, you are the best. Godbless what you do.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I respect what you have tried to accomplish, But, these sellers sell these batteries to tens of thousands of people for electrical vehicle projects also, solar is just one part of the market, I suspect they won't change the amp hours ratings or use the term storage grade..But, the information you provide is extremely valuable..I'm one of those people in the solar and the vehicle project world, which leads me to this conclusion..Personally, if the AH are close, I could care less, as long as the batteries function for several years..Thanks brother..
Hi Andy, and thank you again for this video, and your comments, it's important for all the people who follow your channel. That's exactly it, about cells, I completely agree with you, and I confirm, there is no grade A or B, and indeed all cells, sold by Alibaba or Aliex resellers, are cells, which they buy back from the manufacturer, and obviously these cells are rejected by the manufacturer, because as you say it does not pass the controls. The manufacturer gives a data sheet for these cells, with all these very precise parameters: Size, Weight, visual aspect, and all the electrical data of the cells, if 1 parameter is not good, the cells are rejected. And then sold to resellers, obviously I think that in the lots, you have almost perfect cells, but unfortunately also cells that will not give full satisfaction. In general for use, solar storage, there would be no problem. The only point that is difficult to know is in the time of use, after several years?? My experience with EVE 105 Ah packs (bought from a resellers), after 3 years the cells are starting to show signs of weakness (decreased capacity, and in deep discharge, up to 2.5v, that's where you see the weakness of certain cells. The suppliers replace us for free the packs that give weaknesses. This confirms that it is really necessary, to choose your reseller well, to impose your criteria of choice, to ask for written confirmations, concerning, the quality of the cells you want to buy and also very important, insist on after-sales service. These cells are expensive, if after 3 years you have to replace them it makes no sense. Besides, I would really like to have feedback from cell users, after more than 3 years of use, it's very interesting and important. Because when they announce charge and discharge cycles?? (2500 cycles, 3000-4000- 6000 cycles ????) Even if really tests are done charge and discharges, they are not done over 6 years - 8 years - or 10 years?!) So my opinion is that these cycle tests are incorrect, as they do not take into account the "old age" of the cell, and certainly that the internal components age. Only our uses over time, we will say, the real charge and discharge cycles, and how many years we can normally use our batteries...
Thanks for this great comment and summary. We all will be testing these batteries and over time we can then say these ones work better than other ones, So time will tell. The cycling tests they did determine the numbers were certainly not done over several years but I believe they have factored in some sort of calendar aging and presented some conservative numbers for these cells.
Thank you Andy, You are full of information. For people who are not subscribed to this channel and are buying these batteries you are missing out on a lot of very useful information.
Happy to help, thanks for the mention. I am so glad you are pushing the resellers to make these changes, it will be great for everyone and clear things up significantly. Thank you Andy for all the hard yards in getting all the info into one place here on the Off Grid Garage.
I have eight of the 304 amp EVE batteries from Docan Power. They arrived perfect. I have never had such a good experience gambling in my 70 years on this planet. I believe Andy recommended Docan Power yet I am unsure. Thanks for the unobsficated explanation of this confusing aspect of buying batteries online. I believe I will buy you a cup of coffee!
Thanks Gerald. I have not ordered from Docan myself so cannot share any experience. I have seen some comments under my videos from others and the feedback was mixed by 50/50. But not my own experience.
Great video and explanation. I just discovered your channel this week and have been learning a lot! I didn't know how much I didn't know ;-) I hope the resellers from China take your suggestions to heart. It will help a lot of people out with their solar/wind/home hydro storage projects.
Great video thanks Andy, I completely agree. I get tonnes of questions about the grade of our batteries. Below is an answer to being asked whether they are grade A, that I've posted before and I usually respond with something like it. Now you've made my job easier and I can just link your video! 👍 "While that sounds like a straight forward question to answer, I don't personally think it is. All the vendors that are selling these sorts of cells are selling them as grade A, however there's no consensus of what that actually means and grading is extremely subjective. All my cells meet or exceed the factory specifications however there can be cosmetic blemishes on some. I'm personally of the view (and many might disagree) that ALL cells that are being sold in Australia are what I would call grade B. Whether that's individual cells or prepackaged batteries (actually many of them will be a lower grade than that). I know that the vast majority of people advertise their cells as grade A, but to me personally, that's not the case at all. I know this answer might not be helpful to me selling cells on here (as opposed to talking up the unmatched quality of my cells), but it's the most honest answer I can give you. So in summary, they do exactly what they're supposed to, but I wouldn't claim them to be grade A."
Thank you Andy for sharing all this Information to the public. I also thought about making a video about this topic, but you found out some more points. As always: thumbs up and keep going :) PS: i am also writing with my reseller to think about the "storage grade" label. Great idea !
Thanks a lot, Jens. Maybe you do you video in German and bring some different point of views to the table. Yeah, pushing back to the sellers from more angles will certainly help. Thank you.
This is exactly the reason I haven't purchased from these sellers on Alibaba/Aliexpress. It is clear they are selling QC-failed cells and labeling them as Grade A. It's obvious they cannot sell QC-pass Grade A cells at the prices they are advertising on those platforms, so I have just assumed it is a scam. Greater transparency and honest labeling is what will give consumers confidence to purchase. The sellers need to label this as Grade B and explain that they were Grade A cells that didn't pass the very strict Grade A QC standards but are still matched and viable cells to use outside of Automotive applications. Thanks for the deep dive on this and using your experience to improve the situation for everyone here, and hopefully beyond!
Thanks a lot for your comment. That sums it up nicely. I will do my best and try to push them be more open and transparent with what they are selling. It would be a win for both sides.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia There were already some sellers using the 'official' categories for 'EV' or for 'ESS' years ago. But the people decided for the Grade X lie, and the products with this label disappeared 3 years ago and the first AliExpress Lifepo4 flood began. Best wishes from Tübingen :)
@@cptjohn1143 Danke Dir. Yeah, some sellers tried to do the right thing but once they see other shops marketing their cells as 'A-Grade' and sell heaps more, it's hard to resist. They jump on the bandwagon and just go with it.
I was looking at Aliexpress today and saw some 272ah, which makes me wonder if they were produced as 280ah but didn't pass. Perhaps some sellers are starting to listen? Also saw some categorized as storage batteries.
Just a little update to the cells. EVE is selling GradeA nowadays with threads (2 on each pole/280K) and flat surfaces on the top of the poles. Busbars and screws are supplied as well. So a total other picture as in the video. Pricewise I did not see a real big difference in the price to resellers at Alibaba or Aliexpress and had been choosing therefore GradeA batteries, delivered directly from a warehouse in my country in Europe, where I needed them. The price was lower or at the same level as from resellers. Since I did not want any bad experiences I was very happy with the option to buy directly from the manufacturer. Doris Liu was my contact at EVE and everything went very easy. Even with a local partner/bank in Germany selling the cells to me. From the legal standpoint a much better choice as well. I really like your videos and maybe this needs an update to reflect the fast changing market. Thanks for educating me on so many things regarding batteries and storage systems.
Thank you for this great video. You need to write a book on this particular video. One of the reasons that I choose 32650 round cells, even though I have to spot weld them, is that I felt they were better regulated, so I understood better what I was buying. It always seems that the prismatic world is in such disorder. That disorder has made it so that I could not understand situation no matter how hard I looked at it. Now, there is a little less disorder. I see that there are Chinese prismatics available in the US now, but at outrageous prices. Things are getting a little better now, but the one thing that still worries me is the state of shipping between the US and China.
Thanks a lot Bill. We need to get this right here and let potential buyers know what they can expect and also educate sellers to do the right thing. It's a win win situation.
Here in the Philippines the quality of 32650 cells are all over the place. It's like buying a box of chocolate, you'll never know what you're gonna get. The seller will say they are brand new cells but after testing them you will get random capacities. And most of the time for 32650 cells with welded screw/nuts if you peel their wrapper you will see they are used cells.
I would rather have the actual test numbers so I know exactly what I'm getting into. hopefully fully tested and labeled cells will be a normal thing at some point. great points to bring up andy!
I've also had nothing but good experiences purchasing 280 and 100 ah eve cells. I would consider grade B batteries as used, and storage as below automotive standards. I have a few hundred B class, 8ah headway cells for the car audio thing. They're used but still, the majority tests at least 8 ah. Another excellent video
Andy thank you very much for last 2 videos, I gave 4 out of 5 stars review on alibaba for my order from QSO EU warehouse in the end. Also I would have no problem ordering again from them! Our expectations and their advertising have to meet somewhere in the middle! My panels are going to the roof in next few days I hope everything works. Stay charged!
be carefull cause you are participating in a lottery at least currently cause last week shippings arrved again with underperforming cells, each below 280 Ah even though 280 + 3 had been promised before purchase. And the biggest issues of all: once it happens you are fighting for a 10% discount which the chiniese claim a lot for just 1% less capacity but they are not telling you how often these cells might have been used in the past 9 month fully charged several times a days running in a 247 h use case like in a minibus with 2 or 3 drivers. If those are underperforming due to cycles done than 10% is nothing compared to the 1% capacity missing at arrival. That is what we do not know and if you believe you will get the same quality due to your experience then be warned that quite the opposite can happen, that you then will get worser cells than before. Usually first orders are fullfilled quite well, second orders are a high risk. We have seen dozens of qishu second deliveries causing problems.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I could not wait, panels are mounted, cabling done, everything connected but load, battery balanced, controller set up, first load very soon 🙂
The problem is probably every seller who is competing with the old way of labeling. I do hope the sellers takes you’re suggestion and with the goodwill from honesty will make them more competitive than all the others. Thanks for this and all the other good videos you give us!
That is the problem. I hope I can convince QSO to go this new way and they will get many people buying from them as the 'reward to be honest' so to speak. It would only make things better for both sides.
Andy, admiring your efforts to bring the sides together, but looking at the extent of extra work they will need to go through, I very doubt. Given my 1-year working experience in China.
At some point, I've had enough with the 2 cells peaking in my 8S "320AH" battery pack. So what I did, I installed the cylindrical 33140 LFP cells in parallel to them and then disabled the balancing altogether, because the only thing it did was in fact unbalancing the pack. These 33140 cells have ~15Ah capacity and can withstand ~75A discharge current which is more than enough for me. Then, following Andy's other advise, I limited the CC phase to 3.4V and haven't had a problem since.
Brilliant! As the battery buying community becomes more educated, your suggestion makes perfect sense and could potentially make the reseller look better than their competition.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You have been a big help all round mate. Even recognizing diagnosing system problems with my Mum's grid tied system. I tell them about stuff your channel all the time. She said the feed in meter had dropped off significantly. Their 12 year old panels are burnt out with finger nail sized burnt spots and long snail trails of burn out elements on 11 out of 16 panels Wish I could email you photos! So long story longer, it is their 50th wedding anniversary next month, as a big gift I have spent a chunk of my pandemic redundancy money on 10 very sexy Trina Solar Virtex S 400w panels and a paralleled inverter all properly installed by an engineer with me labouring for him. The 2nd inverter is not metered but grid tied it is up to us to use and capture as much as we can, all my used perfect Gumtree special panels are now up on workshop roof and a ground array. I am physically broken but lol and it has rained none stop since. 😂 Peace&love
@@garys-half-baked-offgrid-dream your a very good man, Gary! That sounds great and they can be proud of you doing this for them. You have sent me an email before. I'll respond again so you have my address for photos. Keen to see your setup. Stay charged!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Love you man! And yeah a gift that keeps on giving after all they have given me in my dark times. I am running arround stress testing, charging car, washing machine and tumble dryer on a very on off weather day, heavy showers but beautiful Rainbows.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia One more thing for any doubters out there, Mum and I crunched the numbers and worked out that the origional system paid for it's self twice over, in Scotland in that 12 years.
Thanks for this video Andy and it's good they will now grade them and label them with the correct capacity. Hopefully the other sellers follow. I'm hoping that the sellers don't sell swollen cells and think that's ok because its being labelled as storage grade. Would be great to have a short video from you in terms of what's the difference between automotive grade and storage grade.
@@hendersonsobers396 Primarily the high C rates for charge and discharge. The problem is that you have no idea why the cells failed, they were certainly designed and manufactured to pass. They are not designed or manufactured for "storage grade", rather the grade F(ailed) cells are exactly that, cells that have a defect of some sort in the manufacturing or assembly process.
As long as I know, Basen Tec calls EV grade as the grade A+ and storage one as the grade A. Their product is grade A with B on QR. They don't claim they are selling the grade A+. Their capacity check is some of them, not everything. If you are lucky, you can get more than 280AH cells. The first 16 cells I ordered were around 275AH. Unfortunately, one out of 16 was 265AH. The rest were 275AH. The 2nd 16 cells were excellent. 16 out of 16 were around 285AH. They say a recent grade A is usually such a performance. They are not lying, in my opinion. The most important thing for a 16pcs system is not absolute capacity but less deviation between them. If you buy a grade A(storage grade), It's better to order extra ones(20 pcs for 16pcs). If you have 20pcs for 16pcs, you can pick up better combination cells. How about is rejected 4pcs? You can use them for another project or resell them on eBay with the actual capacity data. You already have an excellent package for shipping!!!
as always .. new informtion and insight as to reasons for product specs .. a MUST tho is .. the word QUALITY means nothing ... smiles .. quality control is a statistical method to CONTROL the output of defective or rejected widgets in a production cycle that do NOT MEET SPEC. they may only ACTUALLY test ever 3rd battery or 1000th !?.. this is determined .. but they often do not release those actual figures ... but this does not mean defective or out of spec units are not making it to the client .. the real test is how simple it is to be sent relpacments and the time down while all this occurs .. as ... everyone knows .. SHIT ALWAYS HAPPENS ... smiles .. it is how it is cleaned up that matters to the client...cheers
6:07 isn't that Basen cell from an older LF280AH model (terminal post nearer the center). Since Qishou could not deliver to my country, I was forced to buy from Basen, and got 280K cells with IRs 0.21 just like that on the left. 6:26 and if you'd compare it with SFK's LF280Ks, they have it at ~0.15mOhms
I got 32 from QSO today and they are not Grade A because of optical issues. Capacity was 278 of 280Ah. I would not complain about, BUT they told me before that these cells were new Grade A. I hate lies!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I did, and I was surpised positively how they did handle my complaints! They do have a real professional customer service -> and that is a big difference to other companies. But it is still some kind of fraud or scam because they used this confusion about EV class and ESS cells somehow. Just how I feel as a customer... But surely one of the best companies, because they now really try to meet customers expectations.
Thanks for link Andy. If I if I want 120kwh. So by my calculations, if I need a 120 KWH Babi. I'd need to spen over 30K USD from SFK, and then the cabling and BMS's on top. Ouch. 😢
Great information and I appreciate you shedding some light on this subject. I believe capacity must be only a single criteria that could cause the batteries to not pass the "certified automotive grade" test. It would be great to not only know what those various criteria are but also which specific tests a battery may have failed. I think simply calling them "storage grade" or "B" grade is glossing over too many details.
Thanks Scott. If you watch the second video from SFK, they explain this a bit better and have also the test regulations shown if you google them. I didn't want to go into to many details here but capacity is just one of the many test conditions they need to pass, absolutely. But it is the most obvious for buyers hence I used this as an example.
Wow, I assumed all of this from asking many sellers many questions and roughly got the same information as you are saying. I actually ordered from EVE directly a few days for $52 usd per 105lf cell over $41.5-42.50 usd from other sellers because I'm building an EV. They should still work pretty good tbh because I was told the internal resistance tolerances don't hit factory QC by 0.10-0.30ohms but no one has shared a test report with me to clarify.
That is my assumption as well. The internal resistance may be the main criteria for these cells to fail the testing. Still totally fine for storage projects.
Hi Andy, thank you for your video that helped me to cleary my brain, briefly I would like to know what do you think about rept batteries? thank you for your reply.
Thanks for all your work Andy, nobody likes the feeling that they have been tricked when they don't get what they paid for. BTW who can we buy automotive cells from here in Australia s the shipping from overseas is very slow and expensive. André in Sydney
Still testing my cells out (EVE LF280K from QSO), but they seem to be able to push the current I needed. I've got a 12s pack pushing my 36v Golf Cart and a DALY Smart BMS (250A model), and I've seen ~306A currents during certain situations when driving around and monitoring the current and voltage situation via USB UART. No worrisome voltage sag and the cells have been able to meet the demand so far. Only time and more testing will tell the whole story, but initially the QSO cells I bought from their USA stock have been able to keep up. Only a few days in with the usage, and no real baseline to speak of yet. Haven't had to recharge them yet, and all of the voltages seem to be steady, along with the DALY delivering what I need and seem to be balancing the cells ok (increase sleep timeout to keep the BMS on etc...). If they don't hold up, I'll be able to see it using the DALY app.
Thanks a lot for sharing. Over 300A is already over specs of even the certified cells. So if the cells which did not pass the tests can do it, that is fantastic and only shows how good these cells still are. Yes, monitoring the cells with a smart BMS is a good idea to get an understanding of they they perform in your application.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah. It is only a momentary current. Definitely not continuous demand. More often than not, the current demand of the load is at or under 60A but ranges quite widely depending on driving conditions. I'm definitely not needing 300A very often at all, but I have been pleased so far.
Andy I had to drill my own holes in my cells also they came smooth with no holes just like u was showing in the video I got them off eBay out of Los Angeles
@@OffGridGarageAustralia that's how the company in California receives the cells untouched brand new with no holes so I only pay a quarter of what they actually sells for because I have to drill ur own holes I've drilled 16 cells so far Andy I only paid $60 each for my 16 120ah cells & $80 for my 277ah cells 👍
It's always said that these batteries are sold primarily to car manufacturers.... BUT when I see ads for used car batteries (Tesla, Nissan, VW, BMW,...), I see mostly Li-Ion not LFP and I've never seen a car battery/module with EVE, CATL,... LFP battery. What car manufacturers use EVE or CATL batteries?
Tons of Chinese manufacturers. Now that the LFP patent has expired, others will move onto LFP for various reasons. Tesla already has an LFP based model.
The most and largest EV manufacturer are in China with names, we never have heard off: SAIC, NIO, Xpeng, WM Motor, Geely, ZHiji, Xiaomi, Dongfeng Motor and many more. Many of them use LFP batteries for their vehicles.
Quick question... What are the QR codes for? I scanned one using Google Lens and it just appeared to be a long (serial?) number. Also, could you do a follow up showing what kit you would need to test the cells for suitability for storage grade? I know you've done a lot of videos testing cells, but one specifically for testing each cell as suitable or not for storage would be great!
Hi David, I've shown this in the video below at around the 8:30 mark. The QR code gives you valuable information, for example the date of manufacturing of this particular cell. th-cam.com/video/Y8WqnYpoTB4/w-d-xo.html
I've been inside a lot of automotive batteries and NONE of them have cells remotely like these . I would like to know what vehicle they are supposed to be put in ? A bus or something maybe ?
Hi Andy how can I make any inverter to an hybrid inverter. Any id how to do. Can' I connect my battery pack with an DC/DC to an Inverter grid port. Is this possible. How about the different input resistance and current limitation? What do you think! Bob
Hi Bob. that is impossible. A grid tie inverter cannot be connected or fed by batteries. It is connected to the mains all the time. You would need to buy a new device, either hybrid inverter or off-grid inverter.
Im curious what the tests are that are run for automotive grade batteries? In other words, what parameters didn't get met for the "storage grade" batteries? Thanks
The problem is that too many buyers do not complain when they receive a product from an AliExpress seller that does not meet the advertised specifications. When paying with Paypal all buyers payments are protected and so buyers can demand a full refund of that payment from the AliExpress seller. Never negotiate a lower price - just a full refund where the seller pays for any return shipping.
The info with the terminals was very interesting. Now I understand why in my batteries the studs are not straight but all threads are tapped at a slight angle. Probably done by hand.
Mine are also on angles. Some are straight and some are quite noticeably angled. It is a shame they didn’t take more care since this was the only quality issue I found.
Definitely agree with getting what you expect based on what is written on the labeling. I will still critique the data sheet before committing to purchase but it would be great to be able to just trust what's written on the label. Question: My end goal is 64 batteries; should I buy in groups of 16, 32 or some other number? The goal is to get the batteries all matched IR and tested capacity and I just "assumed" that buying them all at once would increase my chances of that....but I'm such a noob I would like to ask those with more experience. Thanks to all and stay happy, stay free.
I would not be too concerned about matched cells. As I said in the other video, whatever they will match and measure, it will be just a snapshot at point of time. Unless you have very specific requirements for your application (well, you should consider certified cells then anyway), they will perform well. If you want to buy 64 cells anyway, the chances will be higher to get matched cells if you buy them at once. But it is still not guaranteed.
On my Catl 310Ah cell, with broken off stud, I filed the broken bit down flat to the terminal proper (looks like the ones featured in this video, round with small, shallow hole in centre) I continued to drill a hole, after seeing copper, and they are then hollow inside, like the threaded holes on EVE, but obviously un-tapped. Made a copper bus bar to fit, small selftapper in broken cell, 6mm hole for the next cells stud (which is really a captive bolt) used Electrical Conductive Grease. Now getting enough power to run the aircon again. ;4 more cells on order; will use the worse old cells to make a 4S with low current load; paralleled with GELs charging at 14v max and float at 13.2
Can you possibly detail what the "electrically conductive grease" was please? I've seen lots of people putting what they thought was conductive grease on terminals over the years, but clearly is a good insulator when checked with an ohm meter. Any brand or label name you have please.?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia "How do you measure that?", I made a jig, very accurate charger/discharger. temperature must be constant too. it must be 4 wire so it does not measure the voltage your jig is putting out but the tempinal voltage of the battery! the resistance of the wire leads makes a difference! Then, let it stabilize and measure the current it's supplying. But! the manufacturer does this, every cell is checked, just get them to put it on the cell? at the moment, it's a go/no go test.
In tube amplifiers we buy matched pairs or quads of tubes! Maybe a little stronger or weaker than the spec sheets. It seems trying to expect balance from unmatched cells is time consuming and frustrating!!
Thanks Andy for the very informative video. maybe you can get info on using cells too. they are also currently being sold. as second hand grade a cells. eg on Lazada. 4* 200ah for just under 160€. but the cells are about 3 to 5 years old. they come from e buses as far as I know.
Here in the Philippines those used cells are very popular because they are very cheap. You can get it at less than half the price of the brand new cell but its capacity is already 80-90% of its original capacity. So at 80% they are technically at the end of their cycle life but they do still work. But for how long is the question.
I think it may be a problem as manufacturers do not record the capacity/internal resistanve for the storage grade cells. This means resellers would gave to test every battery in irder toadvertise with correct capacities etc. Therefore the same problem will continue. They will sell storage grade as automotive grade. If the manufacturers do test all cells then maybe the regulations should state that all tests must be recorded
hi Andy out of this topic. inverter watt/ batter volts = amps right. my spec is 11,000/48 = 229A so I am planning to use a 250A per battery pack. I also planing for 3 packs so the mcb to shutdown all the packs what amp mcb do u think is best. or am I using a too high Amp for single battery pack. since u would need more information, I have a hybrid inverter and max charging is 100A inverter 11,000W. thanks alot. I was confused because u used a 100A per battery pack and a 250A for the entire shutdown of the 3 packs.
Thanks for your question. So first of all, the maths should be more like 11000/52V = 211A. 48V is the nominal system voltage but the LFP batteries are operating more in the 52V area. If you divide this by 3, the max current per battery bank is around 70A. So your planning is right and will work with your system. It is pretty much the same setup as I have in mine installation.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia thanks alot for your reply. It never went to my head that I had to divide it by my battery pack. Thanks for the quick response. Also the way u present every video its very interesting and I have now been addicted to watch ur video. Keep up the good work. Thanks again.
Yes, you can but EV grade EVE cells. Luyuan and SunFunKits are two sources where to get them. You also pay for them. Does it matter for solar systems? Time will tell - all I know is that I'm running my 32 cells for over two years now without issues. I've bought another 32 in the mean time and assembling them at the moment. It's the absolute best bang for the buck capacity you can get. You can get 'server rack' based batteries if you don't want to take the risk - but again, you'll pay 50% more for those than a DIY version, and where is the fun with those ;)
That's what I think to. We're doing DIY stuff here and I really don't mind a bit of maintenance (in terms of top balancing) from time to time to keep the cells together. And people have the choice to buy certified cells, storage cells or ready build server rack batteries these days. For me, the DIY battery is the best as I want to learn and share.
This is really helpful. I'm building a 35 cell battery for my bus conversion, for nominal a ~115 volt system. Almost everything in the coach will run straight on that voltage. In addition to using the battery for running all of the typical house loads while no engines are running, I'm wanting to use the battery to make the vehicle mildly "hybrid", meaning the battery can contribute to traction power, as well as recover energy while descending long grades. To this end, the more power the better, ie a higher C rate for both discharge and charge. So it sounds like I might be better served by the bona fide electric vehicle cells. But, I'm not interested in welding my own terminals! Maybe a set of those cells with the heavy double terminals would be the way to go. Or, I can simply limit the power of my hybrid system, and use the cells with the normal stud terminals. Regardless, this is all VERY good information to learn BEFORE buying anything! Thanks so much!
Thank you. The studs need to have a aluminium base so can be laser welded onto the flat terminals of the cells. At the moment they are using a stainless steel rod which is press-fitted into this base.
And tbh after a few weeks of correspondence with sellers, 'storage' and 'EV' grade is a term the sellers use and if you specifically ask for EV grade they generally tell you no, storage grade.
The certified testing. Have a look at the second video from SFK, they explain this in there. You can google the test requirements for the batteries then.
Used cells are always worse because you never know what they went through before. Used cells is a total gamble and you probably want to buy more cells than you need to mix and match them yourself.
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Cool video. I'm looking for building my first homemade battery and this is very interesting. Now, I've to search for a good and cheap BMS. ;-)
I've tested a lot of BMS here on the channel. I can really recommend the JK-BMS with active balancer: off-grid-garage.com/battery-management-systems-bms/
As far as i know the B in the barcode does not stand for B-Grade or something like that, it stands for the production year; A is 2021, B is 2022, and there where numbers before also - 9 was 2020, 8 2019... and next year we will some day get C for 2023... there was a description somewhere what all the stuff on barcode means, and the first 3 letters in that row are production date (year, month, day), so a B only says its a quite new cell but nothing about the quality
@@OffGridGarageAustralia can you remember off the top of your head what percentage for duty? I knew about the gst (grab snatch and take from the government) Thanks for the prompt reply. I am just about to start buying everything for my build just getting prices for batteries and shipping. Keep making them vids.
"Solar Storage Battery Grade A 3.2V Lifepo4 280Ah" is How they are now labeled on SQT Alibaba! Keep up the good work Andy :)
Thanks Rudolph.
It is cold!
Thank you for this video and the information. We sell solutions for both users, DIY with storage grade and others that want EV Grade. I think after testing for both, about 80% of grade B cells are basically as good as EV Grade, however, about 20% can be potentially a problem. The real issue is consistency. We can not guarantee all of our customers would get good products with grade B/storage grade, some customers would get problematic cells and would be angry. Because of this we only sell EV grade, it makes sure everyone is getting perfect cells. If you have the time and don't mind doing a little bit of DIY work, storage grade cells work great (this usually involves ordering extra cells/spare). On the flip side if you want to set and forget you can not go wrong with EV grade.
EVE is currently working on the official adapter for the LF304 cell, currently only the LF280K is available with their official adapter. As soon as they release the official adapter for the LF304 we will start carrying these.
Thanks again Off grid Garage, the most informative battery channel on youtube!
Thanks to Andy I got onto the SFK kits and just love them.
They arrived very quickly and in perfect condition.
Well thought out and engineered, easy to assemble, everything neat and tidy.
16 x 320Ah LiitoKala (little Koala?) batteries took a bit off persuading to fit, but the end result is just beautiful.
My only complaint is this, you forgot to include a couple of buckets of sunshine from California or Louisiana or wherever you get it from, to fill up the batteries.
Just went through winter solstice here in Australia, very short days, very little to no input where I am.
My ageing SLA battery bank won't last for ever so I'll be back for more.
Great work guys, love the product, keep up the good work.
@@NedKLee What ? You are using the most famous fake cell maker Liitokala ?
They are always over advertising , there product never met the specs and I can remember their refitted 32650 cells with 7000 mAh advertised while they had printed on the sleeve first 6000 and later 6500 mAh , while the first test result showed about 5500 mAh max, but starting from 5100 mAh.
The EVE had 282 Ah with the same test rigg and charger.
Here LiitoKala is dead in our forum.
but that 20% maybe or most likely unidentifyable sleepers that seem to be good but might pop up and suck suddenly after 4 years of use are an uncalcuble risk for a dealer considering that after selling 1000 or over 5 years 5.000 would mean, that 1000 could show issues within 5 years that could force the dealer to replace .
A nightmare for customers and dealers, cause you can not really prepare for that, who would store 20% as replacement over 5 years that might not be needed or all might be needed.
I hope that Andreas will talk about this topic too even though he usually is the lucky one like all the other yt channels which get not first grade but quite good cells or above average pretty well selected.
@@typxxilps My apologies for not gaining your permission first to buy and use these batteries.
After being successfully off grid, stand alone Solar using Chinese made SLA's for nearly 10 years, this is my first foray into LFP's.
I've had these batteries for a few months, charged and discharged them and they checked out to MY satisfaction, 320 Ah.
The batteries I put in the SFK boxes are totally irrelevant to the SFK product, that's my responsibility completely and that does not detract from the quality of the SFK product, which I'm really happy with and were the reason for my comment.
If you've had problems with the Little Koala batteries, vote with your feet, don't buy their product.
I don't know where here is or which forum you're referring to but I suggest you tone down your rhetoric.
Thanks a lot Ashan, you brought a lot of good information on the table. Hence I included your videos for everyone to watch and understand. I'll include your version 3.5 and 4 in one of the following videos as well. I like the spacers 😃
Merci beaucoup ANDY pour toutes ces explications techniques 💫
Thanks Andy for answering a bunch of my questions in one video.
Thanks Barry!
One of the most informative videos I have seen recently. Answered all the questions I had, and some I didn't know I need to ask. Thank you.
I live in Hawaii and could not get anybody to ship the batteries to me. They all kept saying that where I lived was to remote, even though we have UPS and FedEx here in the jungle where I live on the big island. I had to ask about a dozen different places on aliexpress, finally I got one of them to inquire what the problem was, long story short I had to pay an extra $800 to have 16 batteries shipped from china, the good news is it only took about 14 days. Now I am waiting for the rest of my scavenger hunt of items so that I can build my 8 s 2 p battery system. I am doing it that way because all of my lead acid items I have are set up for a 24 volt system. It makes it more complex, but I am learning a lot from this channel! Thanks much Andy!
Thanks a lot for sharing, Chris. An additional $800... wow. I guess that the price you have to pay living on a beautiful island 🏝️
@@OffGridGarageAustralia sooo..16 280 ah delivered to door for$3500
I nominate Andy for President, or at least Ambassador. Thank you for trying to make sense in a world that needs it.
If I'm becoming president, there will be free batteries and solar for everyone!
Thanks Bill😊
The major problem is not that the capacity may be off slightly. It's the fact that I do not think the Lifespan of these batteries will be nearly the same as a True Grade A Cell.
One of the major reasons why cells fail testing is because the trimming process of the Aluminum and copper strips within the cells called "Slitting" comes out jagged and not smooth, these jagged edges is what will puncture the separator and lead to the cells having a high internal discharge rate. This problems becomes worst with each discharge and charge as it wears and then punctures the separator. This is why batteries are put through an X-Ray to see if the Slitting process is perfect in all the cells. If it is not perfect they are rejected.
Keep in mind this is the Number one reason why Cells Fail, so it is most likely the issue with most of the cells that are auctioned.
The life of these batteries won't even equal that of decent quality lead carbon batteries. But hey, if you need a 2nd job babysitting your home's electrical supply then home built LiFePO4 is the way to go.
I just used the capacity as an example in this video as most people understand this easily. There are certainly more parameters which are being tested. I personally think, most batteries will fail the testing because of internal resistance. And this is not so much a concern in storage applications.
The problem with this batteries comes when you push them above 0.5c wich is usuall in EV at this rates they spread amps, in a home we don’t really push that hard and also houses don’t move. There a people who are running diy batteries for many years ago and they are ok. For the price you can buy double your capacity needings and run pararell so your dividing also in two your power needs.
Andy, Andy...you are the best..
Thank you for meeting Supplier & Buyer expectations.. Win-Win..
Yes, that's what I think as well. It cannot be that hard, right?!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You are right, it only needs someone to do the hard start and the rest is easy.. Hahaha..
As I said, you are the best.
Godbless what you do.
@@joeabad5908 Thanks a lot.
Great video and information. You wont convince all sellers on Ali, but you certainly can link to seller(s) who are worth dealing with.
You're a great guy Andy. Huge respect for actually communicating with the battery suppliers to push for changes in labeling/classification.
Thank you, we have to do it!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I respect what you have tried to accomplish, But, these sellers sell these batteries to tens of thousands of people for electrical vehicle projects also, solar is just one part of the market, I suspect they won't change the amp hours ratings or use the term storage grade..But, the information you provide is extremely valuable..I'm one of those people in the solar and the vehicle project world, which leads me to this conclusion..Personally, if the AH are close, I could care less, as long as the batteries function for several years..Thanks brother..
Hi Andy, and thank you again for this video, and your comments, it's important for all the people who follow your channel.
That's exactly it, about cells, I completely agree with you, and I confirm, there is no grade A or B, and indeed all cells, sold by Alibaba or Aliex resellers, are cells, which they buy back from the manufacturer, and obviously these cells are rejected by the manufacturer, because as you say it does not pass the controls.
The manufacturer gives a data sheet for these cells, with all these very precise parameters: Size, Weight, visual aspect, and all the electrical data of the cells, if 1 parameter is not good, the cells are rejected.
And then sold to resellers, obviously I think that in the lots, you have almost perfect cells, but unfortunately also cells that will not give full satisfaction.
In general for use, solar storage, there would be no problem.
The only point that is difficult to know is in the time of use, after several years??
My experience with EVE 105 Ah packs (bought from a resellers), after 3 years the cells are starting to show signs of weakness (decreased capacity, and in deep discharge, up to 2.5v, that's where you see the weakness of certain cells.
The suppliers replace us for free the packs that give weaknesses.
This confirms that it is really necessary, to choose your reseller well, to impose your criteria of choice, to ask for written confirmations, concerning,
the quality of the cells you want to buy and also very important, insist on after-sales service.
These cells are expensive, if after 3 years you have to replace them it makes no sense.
Besides, I would really like to have feedback from cell users, after more than 3 years of use, it's very interesting and important.
Because when they announce charge and discharge cycles?? (2500 cycles, 3000-4000- 6000 cycles ????)
Even if really tests are done charge and discharges, they are not done over 6 years - 8 years - or 10 years?!)
So my opinion is that these cycle tests are incorrect, as they do not take into account the "old age" of the cell, and certainly that the internal components age.
Only our uses over time, we will say, the real charge and discharge cycles, and how many years we can normally use our batteries...
Thanks for this great comment and summary. We all will be testing these batteries and over time we can then say these ones work better than other ones, So time will tell.
The cycling tests they did determine the numbers were certainly not done over several years but I believe they have factored in some sort of calendar aging and presented some conservative numbers for these cells.
Thank you Andy, You are full of information. For people who are not subscribed to this channel and are buying these batteries you are missing out on a lot of very useful information.
Thanks for that!
Happy to help, thanks for the mention. I am so glad you are pushing the resellers to make these changes, it will be great for everyone and clear things up significantly. Thank you Andy for all the hard yards in getting all the info into one place here on the Off Grid Garage.
Thanks for your great support Trevor and the valuable information from your end. It has helped a lot to understand the topic better. Get better soon 🤒
I have eight of the 304 amp EVE batteries from Docan Power. They arrived perfect. I have never had such a good experience gambling in my 70 years on this planet. I believe Andy recommended Docan Power yet I am unsure. Thanks for the unobsficated explanation of this confusing aspect of buying batteries online. I believe I will buy you a cup of coffee!
Thanks Gerald. I have not ordered from Docan myself so cannot share any experience. I have seen some comments under my videos from others and the feedback was mixed by 50/50. But not my own experience.
Great help thanks very much Andy! Still have yet to order my first batch so thanks!
Just what i need to relax - learning about my blue loved ones with Andy! 👌
Haha, what a stressful topic to relax 😬
Thanks!
Thanks so much for your support!
Great video and explanation. I just discovered your channel this week and have been learning a lot! I didn't know how much I didn't know ;-)
I hope the resellers from China take your suggestions to heart. It will help a lot of people out with their solar/wind/home hydro storage projects.
Thanks for this in depth explanation! It all becomes clearer now.
Great video thanks Andy, I completely agree.
I get tonnes of questions about the grade of our batteries. Below is an answer to being asked whether they are grade A, that I've posted before and I usually respond with something like it. Now you've made my job easier and I can just link your video! 👍
"While that sounds like a straight forward question to answer, I don't personally think it is.
All the vendors that are selling these sorts of cells are selling them as grade A, however there's no consensus of what that actually means and grading is extremely subjective.
All my cells meet or exceed the factory specifications however there can be cosmetic blemishes on some. I'm personally of the view (and many might disagree) that ALL cells that are being sold in Australia are what I would call grade B. Whether that's individual cells or prepackaged batteries (actually many of them will be a lower grade than that).
I know that the vast majority of people advertise their cells as grade A, but to me personally, that's not the case at all.
I know this answer might not be helpful to me selling cells on here (as opposed to talking up the unmatched quality of my cells), but it's the most honest answer I can give you.
So in summary, they do exactly what they're supposed to, but I wouldn't claim them to be grade A."
Great comment and summary, thanks a lot!
Thank you Andy for sharing all this Information to the public. I also thought about making a video about this topic, but you found out some more points. As always: thumbs up and keep going :)
PS: i am also writing with my reseller to think about the "storage grade" label. Great idea !
Thanks a lot, Jens. Maybe you do you video in German and bring some different point of views to the table.
Yeah, pushing back to the sellers from more angles will certainly help. Thank you.
This is exactly the reason I haven't purchased from these sellers on Alibaba/Aliexpress. It is clear they are selling QC-failed cells and labeling them as Grade A. It's obvious they cannot sell QC-pass Grade A cells at the prices they are advertising on those platforms, so I have just assumed it is a scam.
Greater transparency and honest labeling is what will give consumers confidence to purchase. The sellers need to label this as Grade B and explain that they were Grade A cells that didn't pass the very strict Grade A QC standards but are still matched and viable cells to use outside of Automotive applications.
Thanks for the deep dive on this and using your experience to improve the situation for everyone here, and hopefully beyond!
Thanks a lot for your comment. That sums it up nicely.
I will do my best and try to push them be more open and transparent with what they are selling. It would be a win for both sides.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia There were already some sellers using the 'official' categories for 'EV' or for 'ESS' years ago. But the people decided for the Grade X lie, and the products with this label disappeared 3 years ago and the first AliExpress Lifepo4 flood began.
Best wishes from Tübingen :)
@@cptjohn1143 Danke Dir. Yeah, some sellers tried to do the right thing but once they see other shops marketing their cells as 'A-Grade' and sell heaps more, it's hard to resist. They jump on the bandwagon and just go with it.
I was looking at Aliexpress today and saw some 272ah, which makes me wonder if they were produced as 280ah but didn't pass. Perhaps some sellers are starting to listen? Also saw some categorized as storage batteries.
well done Andy, good to educate the solar community, hopefully QSO, Basen and others, be more open about the cells their selling. Thank You !
We can only try...
Just a little update to the cells. EVE is selling GradeA nowadays with threads (2 on each pole/280K) and flat surfaces on the top of the poles. Busbars and screws are supplied as well. So a total other picture as in the video. Pricewise I did not see a real big difference in the price to resellers at Alibaba or Aliexpress and had been choosing therefore GradeA batteries, delivered directly from a warehouse in my country in Europe, where I needed them. The price was lower or at the same level as from resellers. Since I did not want any bad experiences I was very happy with the option to buy directly from the manufacturer. Doris Liu was my contact at EVE and everything went very easy. Even with a local partner/bank in Germany selling the cells to me. From the legal standpoint a much better choice as well. I really like your videos and maybe this needs an update to reflect the fast changing market. Thanks for educating me on so many things regarding batteries and storage systems.
Andy, thanks for making this video!
Andy, that was a Great explanation for all of us. Grüße aus Dortmund
Awesome video. Great research and clears things up. I have suspected this exactly for a while but good to hear from more direct sources confirming.
Thanks Jason. I hope it makes it clearer for everyone and buyers know what to expect.
Thank you for this great video. You need to write a book on this particular video. One of the reasons that I choose 32650 round cells, even though I have to spot weld them, is that I felt they were better regulated, so I understood better what I was buying. It always seems that the prismatic world is in such disorder. That disorder has made it so that I could not understand situation no matter how hard I looked at it. Now, there is a little less disorder. I see that there are Chinese prismatics available in the US now, but at outrageous prices. Things are getting a little better now, but the one thing that still worries me is the state of shipping between the US and China.
Thanks a lot Bill. We need to get this right here and let potential buyers know what they can expect and also educate sellers to do the right thing. It's a win win situation.
Here in the Philippines the quality of 32650 cells are all over the place. It's like buying a box of chocolate, you'll never know what you're gonna get. The seller will say they are brand new cells but after testing them you will get random capacities. And most of the time for 32650 cells with welded screw/nuts if you peel their wrapper you will see they are used cells.
Re battery grades, you have reasonable idea, reasonably expressed. Good luck.
I have some true certified cells come in soon and will put them to the test and compare them to the other 'A-grade" cells I have.
A fantastic insight just as I am about to buy cells. Thank you! 🙏
I would rather have the actual test numbers so I know exactly what I'm getting into. hopefully fully tested and labeled cells will be a normal thing at some point. great points to bring up andy!
Thanks, Bill. I'll see what I can do.
That is the 'normal thing' right now if you buy EV Automotive Grade batteries.
Well siad Andy. We/customers will not complain if they are honest about what they are selling us.
Exactly!
Good stuff Andy, thanks for all ur efforts here, I think u hit all the right points and made it more clear as to what we can expect. Cheers
I've also had nothing but good experiences purchasing 280 and 100 ah eve cells. I would consider grade B batteries as used, and storage as below automotive standards. I have a few hundred B class, 8ah headway cells for the car audio thing. They're used but still, the majority tests at least 8 ah. Another excellent video
Thank you for your comment. That is a good point you make here: certified automotive - storage standard and grade B cells.
Thank you Andy👍
Andy thank you very much for last 2 videos, I gave 4 out of 5 stars review on alibaba for my order from QSO EU warehouse in the end. Also I would have no problem ordering again from them! Our expectations and their advertising have to meet somewhere in the middle! My panels are going to the roof in next few days I hope everything works. Stay charged!
Woohoo, once the panels are up, the actual work begins: cabling, connection, solar charge controller set up and... first test!
be carefull cause you are participating in a lottery at least currently cause last week shippings arrved again with underperforming cells, each below 280 Ah even though 280 + 3 had been promised before purchase.
And the biggest issues of all: once it happens you are fighting for a 10% discount which the chiniese claim a lot for just 1% less capacity but they are not telling you how often these cells might have been used in the past 9 month fully charged several times a days running in a 247 h use case like in a minibus with 2 or 3 drivers.
If those are underperforming due to cycles done than 10% is nothing compared to the 1% capacity missing at arrival. That is what we do not know and if you believe you will get the same quality due to your experience then be warned that quite the opposite can happen, that you then will get worser cells than before. Usually first orders are fullfilled quite well, second orders are a high risk. We have seen dozens of qishu second deliveries causing problems.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I could not wait, panels are mounted, cabling done, everything connected but load, battery balanced, controller set up, first load very soon 🙂
@@Silvije2 I would be the exact same🙂
@@typxxilps It is just what it is at the moment and I'm trying to convince sellers to do the right thing. It would help all of us.
The problem is probably every seller who is competing with the old way of labeling. I do hope the sellers takes you’re suggestion and with the goodwill from honesty will make them more competitive than all the others. Thanks for this and all the other good videos you give us!
That is the problem. I hope I can convince QSO to go this new way and they will get many people buying from them as the 'reward to be honest' so to speak. It would only make things better for both sides.
Andy, admiring your efforts to bring the sides together, but looking at the extent of extra work they will need to go through, I very doubt. Given my 1-year working experience in China.
At some point, I've had enough with the 2 cells peaking in my 8S "320AH" battery pack. So what I did, I installed the cylindrical 33140 LFP cells in parallel to them and then disabled the balancing altogether, because the only thing it did was in fact unbalancing the pack. These 33140 cells have ~15Ah capacity and can withstand ~75A discharge current which is more than enough for me. Then, following Andy's other advise, I limited the CC phase to 3.4V and haven't had a problem since.
Thanks Andy. Really helpful information.
Great video by the way, helpful for my 32 cell buy I have coming up.
Thank you! I do hope the resellers do start labeling the batteries correctly. Sure would make building a battery easier
Brilliant! As the battery buying community becomes more educated, your suggestion makes perfect sense and could potentially make the reseller look better than their competition.
We definitely need more transparency here. If everyone sells A-grade batteries, it does not help.
Great video Andy, thank you
Top man Andy! Great explanation and clarification, and thanks for your working with the various suppliers.
Glad it was helpful!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You have been a big help all round mate. Even recognizing diagnosing system problems with my Mum's grid tied system. I tell them about stuff your channel all the time. She said the feed in meter had dropped off significantly. Their 12 year old panels are burnt out with finger nail sized burnt spots and long snail trails of burn out elements on 11 out of 16 panels Wish I could email you photos!
So long story longer, it is their 50th wedding anniversary next month, as a big gift I have spent a chunk of my pandemic redundancy money on 10 very sexy Trina Solar Virtex S 400w panels and a paralleled inverter all properly installed by an engineer with me labouring for him. The 2nd inverter is not metered but grid tied it is up to us to use and capture as much as we can, all my used perfect Gumtree special panels are now up on workshop roof and a ground array.
I am physically broken but lol and it has rained none stop since. 😂
Peace&love
@@garys-half-baked-offgrid-dream your a very good man, Gary! That sounds great and they can be proud of you doing this for them. You have sent me an email before. I'll respond again so you have my address for photos. Keen to see your setup.
Stay charged!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Love you man! And yeah a gift that keeps on giving after all they have given me in my dark times.
I am running arround stress testing, charging car, washing machine and tumble dryer on a very on off weather day, heavy showers but beautiful Rainbows.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia One more thing for any doubters out there, Mum and I crunched the numbers and worked out that the origional system paid for it's self twice over, in Scotland in that 12 years.
Thanks for this video Andy and it's good they will now grade them and label them with the correct capacity. Hopefully the other sellers follow. I'm hoping that the sellers don't sell swollen cells and think that's ok because its being labelled as storage grade. Would be great to have a short video from you in terms of what's the difference between automotive grade and storage grade.
The difference is one passed and the other failed.
@@john_in_phoenix lol...yeah i get that but just wondering what exactly is required for EV but doesnt matter for solar storage.
@@hendersonsobers396 structural integrity, capacity, possibly other . all batteries must pass IEC 62133, UL 1642 etc.
@@hendersonsobers396 Primarily the high C rates for charge and discharge. The problem is that you have no idea why the cells failed, they were certainly designed and manufactured to pass. They are not designed or manufactured for "storage grade", rather the grade F(ailed) cells are exactly that, cells that have a defect of some sort in the manufacturing or assembly process.
@@cybrwerks Thanks Gary. Will check out those standards.
Fantastic video and explanation of the prismatic battery market. unsure how to truly prevent purchasing "use" batteries though. still a bit gun shy.
As long as I know, Basen Tec calls EV grade as the grade A+ and storage one as the grade A. Their product is grade A with B on QR. They don't claim they are selling the grade A+. Their capacity check is some of them, not everything. If you are lucky, you can get more than 280AH cells. The first 16 cells I ordered were around 275AH. Unfortunately, one out of 16 was 265AH. The rest were 275AH. The 2nd 16 cells were excellent. 16 out of 16 were around 285AH. They say a recent grade A is usually such a performance. They are not lying, in my opinion.
The most important thing for a 16pcs system is not absolute capacity but less deviation between them. If you buy a grade A(storage grade), It's better to order extra ones(20 pcs for 16pcs). If you have 20pcs for 16pcs, you can pick up better combination cells. How about is rejected 4pcs? You can use them for another project or resell them on eBay with the actual capacity data. You already have an excellent package for shipping!!!
as always .. new informtion and insight as to reasons for product specs .. a MUST tho is .. the word QUALITY means nothing ... smiles .. quality control is a statistical method to CONTROL the output of defective or rejected widgets in a production cycle that do NOT MEET SPEC. they may only ACTUALLY test ever 3rd battery or 1000th !?.. this is determined .. but they often do not release those actual figures ... but this does not mean defective or out of spec units are not making it to the client .. the real test is how simple it is to be sent relpacments and the time down while all this occurs .. as ... everyone knows .. SHIT ALWAYS HAPPENS ... smiles .. it is how it is cleaned up that matters to the client...cheers
6:07 isn't that Basen cell from an older LF280AH model (terminal post nearer the center).
Since Qishou could not deliver to my country, I was forced to buy from Basen, and got 280K cells with IRs 0.21 just like that on the left.
6:26 and if you'd compare it with SFK's LF280Ks, they have it at ~0.15mOhms
Remember, internal resistance is just a snapshot at this point of time. It will change with SOC , time and temperature.
Thanks for the explanations and work by collecting this.
Thanks Edward. People need to know what they actually buy.
I got 32 from QSO today and they are not Grade A because of optical issues. Capacity was 278 of 280Ah. I would not complain about, BUT they told me before that these cells were new Grade A.
I hate lies!
Some cosmetic issues are not a problem, even certified cells have that. If you're not happy with the capacity, you should complain with QSO.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I did, and I was surpised positively how they did handle my complaints! They do have a real professional customer service -> and that is a big difference to other companies.
But it is still some kind of fraud or scam because they used this confusion about EV class and ESS cells somehow. Just how I feel as a customer...
But surely one of the best companies, because they now really try to meet customers expectations.
@@cptjohn1143 thanks for sharing, John. It is still a long way until we have them where they should be, but it's a good start. I'll keep pushing.
Off Grid Andy, King of the Battery World.
Thanks for link Andy. If I if I want 120kwh. So by my calculations, if I need a 120 KWH Babi. I'd need to spen over 30K USD from SFK, and then the cabling and BMS's on top. Ouch. 😢
I'm sure at this size, you can negotiate a better price.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia true. Thanks Andy.
Great information and I appreciate you shedding some light on this subject.
I believe capacity must be only a single criteria that could cause the batteries to not pass the "certified automotive grade" test. It would be great to not only know what those various criteria are but also which specific tests a battery may have failed. I think simply calling them "storage grade" or "B" grade is glossing over too many details.
Thanks Scott. If you watch the second video from SFK, they explain this a bit better and have also the test regulations shown if you google them. I didn't want to go into to many details here but capacity is just one of the many test conditions they need to pass, absolutely. But it is the most obvious for buyers hence I used this as an example.
Wow, I assumed all of this from asking many sellers many questions and roughly got the same information as you are saying. I actually ordered from EVE directly a few days for $52 usd per 105lf cell over $41.5-42.50 usd from other sellers because I'm building an EV.
They should still work pretty good tbh because I was told the internal resistance tolerances don't hit factory QC by 0.10-0.30ohms but no one has shared a test report with me to clarify.
That is my assumption as well. The internal resistance may be the main criteria for these cells to fail the testing. Still totally fine for storage projects.
Hi Andy, thank you for your video that helped me to cleary my brain, briefly I would like to know what do you think about rept batteries? thank you for your reply.
Thank you Andy.
Very welcome
Thanks for all your work Andy, nobody likes the feeling that they have been tricked when they don't get what they paid for. BTW who can we buy automotive cells from here in Australia s the shipping from overseas is very slow and expensive. André in Sydney
I think you can by certified automotive grade batteries from Muller Energy and also LiFePO4 Australia here in QLD.
Thanks Andy.
Great video Andy. 🇬🇧
Thanks John.
Really good info in this video
Thanks again 👍
My pleasure!
Amy is a pleasure to do business with. Can't fault their service.
I think so too. And they are open for constructive critic and feedback.
So nice vedio♥️♥️
Still testing my cells out (EVE LF280K from QSO), but they seem to be able to push the current I needed. I've got a 12s pack pushing my 36v Golf Cart and a DALY Smart BMS (250A model), and I've seen ~306A currents during certain situations when driving around and monitoring the current and voltage situation via USB UART. No worrisome voltage sag and the cells have been able to meet the demand so far. Only time and more testing will tell the whole story, but initially the QSO cells I bought from their USA stock have been able to keep up. Only a few days in with the usage, and no real baseline to speak of yet. Haven't had to recharge them yet, and all of the voltages seem to be steady, along with the DALY delivering what I need and seem to be balancing the cells ok (increase sleep timeout to keep the BMS on etc...). If they don't hold up, I'll be able to see it using the DALY app.
Thanks a lot for sharing. Over 300A is already over specs of even the certified cells. So if the cells which did not pass the tests can do it, that is fantastic and only shows how good these cells still are.
Yes, monitoring the cells with a smart BMS is a good idea to get an understanding of they they perform in your application.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah. It is only a momentary current. Definitely not continuous demand. More often than not, the current demand of the load is at or under 60A but ranges quite widely depending on driving conditions. I'm definitely not needing 300A very often at all, but I have been pleased so far.
Andy I had to drill my own holes in my cells also they came smooth with no holes just like u was showing in the video I got them off eBay out of Los Angeles
Oh, wow, that is not good. They should come with threads or welded studs. I would be afraid to drill into it not knowing the save depth.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia that's how the company in California receives the cells untouched brand new with no holes so I only pay a quarter of what they actually sells for because I have to drill ur own holes I've drilled 16 cells so far Andy I only paid $60 each for my 16 120ah cells & $80 for my 277ah cells 👍
It's always said that these batteries are sold primarily to car manufacturers.... BUT when I see ads for used car batteries (Tesla, Nissan, VW, BMW,...), I see mostly Li-Ion not LFP and I've never seen a car battery/module with EVE, CATL,... LFP battery. What car manufacturers use EVE or CATL batteries?
Tons of Chinese manufacturers. Now that the LFP patent has expired, others will move onto LFP for various reasons. Tesla already has an LFP based model.
The most and largest EV manufacturer are in China with names, we never have heard off: SAIC, NIO, Xpeng, WM Motor, Geely, ZHiji, Xiaomi, Dongfeng Motor and many more. Many of them use LFP batteries for their vehicles.
Quick question... What are the QR codes for? I scanned one using Google Lens and it just appeared to be a long (serial?) number.
Also, could you do a follow up showing what kit you would need to test the cells for suitability for storage grade? I know you've done a lot of videos testing cells, but one specifically for testing each cell as suitable or not for storage would be great!
Hi David, I've shown this in the video below at around the 8:30 mark.
The QR code gives you valuable information, for example the date of manufacturing of this particular cell.
th-cam.com/video/Y8WqnYpoTB4/w-d-xo.html
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Great stuff, thanks!
great info the first time I have heard this full explanation, and glad someone can push suppliers to do what we all expect as you say 👍🙏
Thanks, Richard. I'll try my best to get this right for us buyers. It can't be that hard to get a certain standard with these batteries.
I've been inside a lot of automotive batteries and NONE of them have cells remotely like these . I would like to know what vehicle they are supposed to be put in ? A bus or something maybe ?
@@LithiumBatteryGuy Thanks !
Tons of them used in vehicles like buses in China.
What a great video!!!! One of your best!!!
Thanks a lot, Michael. I'm all for transparency in this process. The world needs these batteries.
@Off-Grid Garage I heard you mention about Amy Wan, and Basen cells. What do you think about their cells? Is it match your expectations?
@Off-Grid Garage andy did you do some capacity test for sunfun kits cells?
Hi Andy how can I make any inverter to an hybrid inverter.
Any id how to do.
Can' I connect my battery pack with an DC/DC to an Inverter grid port.
Is this possible. How about the different input resistance and current limitation?
What do you think!
Bob
Hi Bob. that is impossible. A grid tie inverter cannot be connected or fed by batteries. It is connected to the mains all the time. You would need to buy a new device, either hybrid inverter or off-grid inverter.
Im curious what the tests are that are run for automotive grade batteries? In other words, what parameters didn't get met for the "storage grade" batteries? Thanks
It can be anything: capacity not sufficient, cosmetic issues, etc. Anything that doesn't comply with their test check-list.
@@LithiumBatteryGuy Yes, I know - I just briefly replied to someone that didn't.
The problem is that too many buyers do not complain when they receive a product from an AliExpress seller that does not meet the advertised specifications. When paying with Paypal all buyers payments are protected and so buyers can demand a full refund of that payment from the AliExpress seller. Never negotiate a lower price - just a full refund where the seller pays for any return shipping.
brilliant video Andy
Thanks 👍
The info with the terminals was very interesting. Now I understand why in my batteries the studs are not straight but all threads are tapped at a slight angle. Probably done by hand.
Oh, they are not straight? They must have had the machine on an angle. Is that an issue when connecting the busbars or are they all in the same angle?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia They are only sightly angled but all over the place. Not enough to be a real issue but enough to be noticed.
Mine are also on angles. Some are straight and some are quite noticeably angled. It is a shame they didn’t take more care since this was the only quality issue I found.
Definitely agree with getting what you expect based on what is written on the labeling. I will still critique the data sheet before committing to purchase but it would be great to be able to just trust what's written on the label.
Question: My end goal is 64 batteries; should I buy in groups of 16, 32 or some other number? The goal is to get the batteries all matched IR and tested capacity and I just "assumed" that buying them all at once would increase my chances of that....but I'm such a noob I would like to ask those with more experience. Thanks to all and stay happy, stay free.
I would not be too concerned about matched cells. As I said in the other video, whatever they will match and measure, it will be just a snapshot at point of time. Unless you have very specific requirements for your application (well, you should consider certified cells then anyway), they will perform well. If you want to buy 64 cells anyway, the chances will be higher to get matched cells if you buy them at once. But it is still not guaranteed.
On my Catl 310Ah cell, with broken off stud, I filed the broken bit down flat to the terminal proper (looks like the ones featured in this video, round with small, shallow hole in centre) I continued to drill a hole, after seeing copper, and they are then hollow inside, like the threaded holes on EVE, but obviously un-tapped. Made a copper bus bar to fit, small selftapper in broken cell, 6mm hole for the next cells stud (which is really a captive bolt) used Electrical Conductive Grease. Now getting enough power to run the aircon again. ;4 more cells on order; will use the worse old cells to make a 4S with low current load; paralleled with GELs charging at 14v max and float at 13.2
Can you possibly detail what the "electrically conductive grease" was please? I've seen lots of people putting what they thought was conductive grease on terminals over the years, but clearly is a good insulator when checked with an ohm meter. Any brand or label name you have please.?
@@raystone4673 Rock Oil Grease, from UK
Andy, get them to put the self discharge current on each cell as well? Matching those is the most important thing.
How do you measure that?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia "How do you measure that?", I made a jig, very accurate charger/discharger. temperature must be constant too. it must be 4 wire so it does not measure the voltage your jig is putting out but the tempinal voltage of the battery! the resistance of the wire leads makes a difference! Then, let it stabilize and measure the current it's supplying.
But! the manufacturer does this, every cell is checked, just get them to put it on the cell? at the moment, it's a go/no go test.
Heya, I have seen those 2 vlogs and love how sunfunkits test there battery cell's
In tube amplifiers we buy matched pairs or quads of tubes! Maybe a little stronger or weaker than the spec sheets. It seems trying to expect balance from unmatched cells is time consuming and frustrating!!
And it may be totally unnecessary as well. If they vary a bit, it does not really matter. They are still great cells for what we are using them for.
Thanks Andy for the very informative video. maybe you can get info on using cells too. they are also currently being sold. as second hand grade a cells. eg on Lazada. 4* 200ah for just under 160€. but the cells are about 3 to 5 years old. they come from e buses as far as I know.
Here in the Philippines those used cells are very popular because they are very cheap. You can get it at less than half the price of the brand new cell but its capacity is already 80-90% of its original capacity. So at 80% they are technically at the end of their cycle life but they do still work. But for how long is the question.
Yeah, used cells are a big gamble though...
I think it may be a problem as manufacturers do not record the capacity/internal resistanve for the storage grade cells. This means resellers would gave to test every battery in irder toadvertise with correct capacities etc. Therefore the same problem will continue. They will sell storage grade as automotive grade.
If the manufacturers do test all cells then maybe the regulations should state that all tests must be recorded
hi Andy out of this topic.
inverter watt/ batter volts = amps right.
my spec is 11,000/48 = 229A so I am planning to use a 250A per battery pack. I also planing for 3 packs so the mcb to shutdown all the packs what amp mcb do u think is best. or am I using a too high Amp for single battery pack.
since u would need more information,
I have a hybrid inverter and max charging is 100A
inverter 11,000W. thanks alot. I was confused because u used a 100A per battery pack and a 250A for the entire shutdown of the 3 packs.
Thanks for your question. So first of all, the maths should be more like 11000/52V = 211A. 48V is the nominal system voltage but the LFP batteries are operating more in the 52V area. If you divide this by 3, the max current per battery bank is around 70A. So your planning is right and will work with your system. It is pretty much the same setup as I have in mine installation.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia thanks alot for your reply. It never went to my head that I had to divide it by my battery pack. Thanks for the quick response.
Also the way u present every video its very interesting and I have now been addicted to watch ur video. Keep up the good work. Thanks again.
* divide by the number of battery packs I have
@@pulith5220 Thank you.
Has anyone experienced buying eve cell at 18650 batter store? How was it?
Hey Andy, how about a follow-up on this video to see where they are today? On printing the truth of what the battery is capable of!
Hard for me to do, I haven't ordered any batteries for a while. But I may be soon...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Fair enough. Your an honest guy. Cheer's!
Yes, you can but EV grade EVE cells. Luyuan and SunFunKits are two sources where to get them. You also pay for them. Does it matter for solar systems? Time will tell - all I know is that I'm running my 32 cells for over two years now without issues. I've bought another 32 in the mean time and assembling them at the moment. It's the absolute best bang for the buck capacity you can get. You can get 'server rack' based batteries if you don't want to take the risk - but again, you'll pay 50% more for those than a DIY version, and where is the fun with those ;)
That's what I think to. We're doing DIY stuff here and I really don't mind a bit of maintenance (in terms of top balancing) from time to time to keep the cells together.
And people have the choice to buy certified cells, storage cells or ready build server rack batteries these days. For me, the DIY battery is the best as I want to learn and share.
Any idea what is the maximum current for the single stud cells?
This is really helpful. I'm building a 35 cell battery for my bus conversion, for nominal a ~115 volt system. Almost everything in the coach will run straight on that voltage. In addition to using the battery for running all of the typical house loads while no engines are running, I'm wanting to use the battery to make the vehicle mildly "hybrid", meaning the battery can contribute to traction power, as well as recover energy while descending long grades. To this end, the more power the better, ie a higher C rate for both discharge and charge. So it sounds like I might be better served by the bona fide electric vehicle cells. But, I'm not interested in welding my own terminals! Maybe a set of those cells with the heavy double terminals would be the way to go. Or, I can simply limit the power of my hybrid system, and use the cells with the normal stud terminals. Regardless, this is all VERY good information to learn BEFORE buying anything! Thanks so much!
Thanks for sharing and your feedback. Good luck with your project.
Good explanation sir,thanks, custom made studs can the company make copper alloy based ?or steel based?
Thank you. The studs need to have a aluminium base so can be laser welded onto the flat terminals of the cells. At the moment they are using a stainless steel rod which is press-fitted into this base.
And tbh after a few weeks of correspondence with sellers, 'storage' and 'EV' grade is a term the sellers use and if you specifically ask for EV grade they generally tell you no, storage grade.
Ah, right, no seller ever told me that before. They are always talking about A-grade.
Cool Info, but where are the differences between certified Auto grade and storage grade?
The certified testing. Have a look at the second video from SFK, they explain this in there. You can google the test requirements for the batteries then.
Great information thank you
Very welcome
Great info. How about some sellers that sell used cells as grade 'A" ? It is worst than new cell that fails grade "A".
Used cells are always worse because you never know what they went through before. Used cells is a total gamble and you probably want to buy more cells than you need to mix and match them yourself.
Cool video. I'm looking for building my first homemade battery and this is very interesting. Now, I've to search for a good and cheap BMS. ;-)
I've tested a lot of BMS here on the channel. I can really recommend the JK-BMS with active balancer: off-grid-garage.com/battery-management-systems-bms/
As far as i know the B in the barcode does not stand for B-Grade or something like that, it stands for the production year; A is 2021, B is 2022, and there where numbers before also - 9 was 2020, 8 2019... and next year we will some day get C for 2023...
there was a description somewhere what all the stuff on barcode means, and the first 3 letters in that row are production date (year, month, day), so a B only says its a quite new cell but nothing about the quality
The 'B' is definitely for distinguishing EVE certified cells from other 'A-Grade' cells, so EVE is not competing against their own rejected cells.
Do you have to pay gst and stamp duty on batteries imported to Australia?
Yes, everything above A$1000 of value triggers custom tax, import and other fees. GST is on all imported goods, regardless what value.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia can you remember off the top of your head what percentage for duty? I knew about the gst (grab snatch and take from the government) Thanks for the prompt reply. I am just about to start buying everything for my build just getting prices for batteries and shipping. Keep making them vids.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia thanks you have done a lot for the diy battery enthusiasts here in Australia.