I have the feeling that this mentality only works when you're in a position of authority, like Linus is. If I started talking to my tech lead or my boss like this, even if I might know more than them technically, I'd get fired.
That's the whole point of the video. You get fired from one place, but you might be embraced by another place because they resonate with your style of communication. Of course if you find yourself being angry at everything constantly, then it's a different sort of problem.
Interestingly, I read your comment and thought about how being as abrasive as Linus would be fine in my current job, but not so fine in any prior job. I definitely think that the most important thing is the technology (results) and bosses will tolerate more than you think if you're an excellent programmer, but only in certain cultures (and probably not nearly half in the US at this time).
Happened to me twice. Didn't even talk 1 / 10th of the shit talked about here, And I was demonstrably right in the cases that most probably led to me being fired. Would still do it again. I will probably not land a high paying job very soon any more, but I really don't care. I most definitely don't have the success, finances or smarts like Linus, but I really feel what he's saying, so I guess it's stronger than ourselves. About authority, I don't think that's the thing. It works only if you can find people that are ok with this direct and open attitude AND share a common goal that is also profitable in financial terms, or gives respect or energy from doing this. Also, in Linus case, his authority grew naturally, in part because it's his baby, but also because the respect he deserved over the years from being dedicated and working hard. But yes, in general, I agree with what you say.
@Мукура Блуд That's not "The beauty of open source", that is "the beauty of open source when you develop famous software everyone is interested in", as everyone is interested in, these people are kinda stuck with their bosses.
0:43 _(...) I've actually seen projects that took the whole political correctness so far that the project is no longer is about the technology_ that's prophetic, isn't it?
Linus bend the knee, end of last year, and permitted the PC-cancer into the kernel-community, by stepping down and letting them install a "code of conduct". You know, just like they did in e-sports. Multiple kerneldevs then threatend to pull their code. In other words: Linux is now infected, down to the kernel. It's not "taken over" yet, but the cancer has firmly taken root, and will only spread.
Dervish: It has no fitting official name yet (they themselves call it "intersectional feminism", which is misleading since it has nothing to do with the original feminism. In fact, the original feminists despise it. Opponents call the perpetrators "SJWs", but that's misleading too, since it has nothing to do with justice or being social). A fitting name would be something like "Cultural and sexual marxism", since that's essentially their ideological system: Applying Marx's beliefs about economies to culture. For example, instead of declaring a class-hierachy the problem, they declare a cultural and sexual hierachy the problem. Some things stay the same though, such as establishing a new "influencer-class" (themselves), to engineer society.
@@lyxar777 How Orwellian that there is no name for it. Linux was the last bastion of meritocracy. I saw it at a big western multinational telco vendor. The rot starts with HR and new equity rules. In less than 12 months (one revision cycle) the equipment can't get 99.99% uptime any more. Socialists have a name for this process. "The long march through the institutions." Give it a wikipedia.
Bro. This joke has become too real, and it's not funny anymore... Like, "main" branch? Are you f*cking serious? The newest "git" even warns you about changing the default branch name.
He is trying to justify abusive behaviour. It is the disrespect that should be earned, not respect. Google tit for tat strategy. My default position is to show respect to everyone until they create reasons for me to disrespect them. For example, I would give my seat to an elder person on a bus out of respect, but if I see that it is a disrespecting asshole or Karen, I would not give up my seat. You should always give a benefit of the doubt because we are not robots so we can make mistakes. There are some really good developers that would refuse to work in such environment even if they are not at the end of his rants.
@@srki22 i agree w/ the last line of your statement but the problem w/ it is that most ppl will give you genuine reason to not respect them w/in a few interactions, and then you have ppl complaining about not getting the respect they supposedly deserve. it also helps to consider that different ppl have a different scope or gauge to whom how or why they extend respect. generally, i tend to respect ppl most for cathartic behaviour, or honesty rather, which is often misconstrued as being mean or abusive. those types of ppl are just sick of your (im gemeralizing) bullshit. in my experience, once youve figured out what they perceive as worthy of their respect, and adapt to that, they are the fairest and most reliable ppl to have in your life. i always draw the line w/ someone when i catch them in a lie or expecting more from me than what they are willing to penny.
If your life is that devoid of joy I pity you. Linus is a god only in his own mind. The Linux kernel is a team effort and although he's the captain he's really not that special. Neither is Linux for that matter. Do yourself a favor and go to a park, hug your relatives, or find some other way to unplug.
I'd say it more fully embraces your concept of a joy filled life to embrace interactions in all of their nuances as opposed to getting caught up on being polically correct. And I think you'll find the result of many individuals groundbreaking work results in an effort of many individuals. And full disclosure, I'm not a Linux proponent in any capacity, so your fanboy angle doesn't fly either.
William MacLeod "Embrace interactions in all of their nuances?" That's a fancy way of saying that you will put up with other people's crap. My position is that one should be a man/woman and stand up for oneself instead of allowing a man-child to treat them like a welcome mat. Its not about being a fanboy its about human decency. If you want to live your life as a castrato and allow people to treat you like crap then go right ahead. I don't kiss anyone's ass. Yes I'm a fan of Linux. Yes I'm a fan of free software. What does that have to do with it? Where is my "fanboy angle"? I even said that Linux isn't that impressive which it isn't. There are far more interesting projects that don't get any attention. I respect Linus Torvalds for starting Linux but I don't respect his attitude. It takes true inner strength to treat people as you would want to be treated. Anyone can be an egomaniac and treat people as nothing but worker bees. It takes a MAN to step outside of himself and realize that what he's doing is wrong. Linus does not do that. Instead he makes excuses. Its not political correctness. Saying that someone should have been retroactively aborted has NOTHING to do with political correctness. It has EVERYTHING to do with being an entitled asshat. Linux is bigger than Linus. He acts like he wrote the whole kernel himself when he has really contributed less than 5% to its codebase.
LTS1287 Jesus, you act like *you're* the person he said needed to be retroactively aborted. I wish people would get this passionate about shit that actually mattered. That would be cool.
1:42 "Living together is not by finding some lowest common denominator" As much as I lead with empathy in as many situations as possible, this is probably the most true he said during his whole answer.
"I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all."
@@Kimchi_Studios America has always been like this lol-look at southern culture “bless his/her heart” can usually be inferred to mean the stupid fucker based on tone
This isn't about superficial friendliness. This is about a man who openly insults other human beings in an over-the-top-manner. I am certain if he insulted you, you would not respect him. You may remain quiet and kiss his arse, but that would last until you finally realized just what a jerk he is and had enough.
@@timisa58 And yet this is an honest man, who doesn't need to hide behind superficial words as OP described. I rather talk to someone like this, then being waterboarded with fake pretense.
Have they? Has Linus been forced out, has he caved to his daughter's wishes, has he been bought, say by Microsoft and Google because Linux is about to begin a decade of growth that will see it become their competition? Lots of questions with no answers.
Felipe Cabrera I'm sure that she's part of this. But I think that everybody is missing an angle on this. In 2018 alone, Microsoft has bought Git which was founded by Linus specifically to maintain Linux, and bought it's way into the Linux Foundation in the same year that Valve has integrated WINE seamlessly into Steam to grow the Linux user base specifically as a counter to Microsoft's obvious designs to close the Windows ecosystem. At the same time next year a Linux powered smartphone which completely avoids the Google ecosystem is landing on the market that will actually get even the FSF approval, and it's coming from a company that has experience succeeding with Linux devices. It will eventually be a competitor. In other words, it makes a lot of sense for both Microsoft and Google to be behind this, especially Microsoft. The only way M$ can possibly take down Linux is from within.
He cannot differentiate between these: Respect: basic decency which should be afforded to all by default, in recognition of their humanity. Assumption of goodwill until shown otherwise. This kind of respect is not earned but can be lost. Respect: admiration and status earned over time by the display of someone's best qualities and high performance. This kind of respect must be earned, and is not given by default. There is a time and place for each of these things. He should learn to put down someone's work or opinions without insulting their humanity. But hey, what can we expect from someone who has no humanity himself outside of his work.
@@andyhilal1228 that kind of respect isn't respect at all it is common courtesy. Respect is earned, and any "respect" that is shown prior is disingenuous.
@@benruss4130 fine, semantic distinction, but okay. Linus should treat people with common courtesy and he does not, disingenuously arguing that "respect should be earned" and whining about political correctness instead of just not being an asshole.
I love how Linus is so calm and nice, yet so abrasive at the same time, LOL. You can tell he's not actively trying to be mean, and that he's not hateful. Like he said, people are different. Grow up in different cultures, in different families, and have different personalities and worldviews. And nobody's perfect either, of course. But I greatly respect him for it
Saying things to people like they should be retroactively aborted isn't being abrasive, it's hostile and hateful. Linus seems to confuse expression of self and expression of contempt, you can express dissatisfaction to people in a way that communicative and gives them the opportunity to improve, or you can be a self aggrandizing ass and make it about making yourself feel better than other people like he seems to. The man seems to create conflict for no reason, and he's not being playful.
@@Ravie1 Yeah, it's one thing to say someone's work was terrible. That's bluntly honest and abrasive. It's quite another to insult the person directly.
@@turtle1692 Lots of truth to that. I wish Linus followed that advice when it comes to sun like players such as Nvidia and Intel. I guess he realises that gods fall.
@@champfisk5613 PC is regressive, and destructive. Honesty is what moves innovation. You don't like it? Leave. Cry-babies like you are becoming a scourge upon this planet.
Some people are polite because they’re genuinely considerate, but most are polite because they need to be. This just shows the degree to which he genuinely doesn’t answer to anyone. His personality is un-touched by the pressures of society, which basically by definition, makes it a personality society condemns.
Hard necro-post response, but I think you've got a pretty twisted view on humanity. Most people don't begrudgingly participate in social norms. Most people are more than happy to participate in social norms. I think you might be projecting.
If Linus said to me "you should be retroactively aborted", I'd be laughing my ass off. Then I'd take the criticism and improve my work. I prefer honest and direct people like Linus a thousand times over the typical "boss" that I know that hates me, but just looks at me with a look of hate, and probably talks shit about me with others. I'd be glad to work for/with him
+Sebastián Aguilera It's ok if someone criticize in terms: "Ok, this is bad because of that and that and it you could fix it like this". But can criticism be: "What's this shit?". And that's what Linus does.
+Sebastián Aguilera It's ok if someone criticize in terms: "Ok, this is bad because of that and that and it you could fix it like this". But can criticism be: "What's this shit?". And that's what Linus does.
Why not working with someone who is both kind and honest instead of choosing just one? Your comparison is flawed. I would like to choose someone who does not shit talk to me when criticizing my work. It is simply an indication of immature character that will fail over time.
I know I'm a bit late to the party on responding, since you wrote your comment 3 years ago Sebastián, but I have a different view of management. I have been a manager and I have been managed, and I have seen how people view their relationship with their managers and I have seen how their managers view their relationships with this staff. I find it funny that people assume that their boss must hate them, when I find that many bosses are actually concerned for their welfare, growth, and would be eager to see them successful. Case in point: I worked with a younger guy, who was about 23 years old. The average employee in the role that he was in was about 35-45, so already he's the baby in the group and you would assume that everyone would lack respect for him. Everyone generally liked him, but felt that he was a bit too nervous. His boss, that he assumed hated him, actually looked at him more as a son (he's about the same age as his son), and tried to get him to realize that when he had to write him up for things it was purely administrative. (He's a truck driver and when you hit something, it comes with consequences, even if you just tear a fender off on a large rock.) Eventually the kid had too many scuffs and he had to be let go. I talked to our boss after it happened and he felt sad about having to do it, because he liked the kid and wanted him to do well. He wished he was able to have had a better impact with the conversations that preceded his firing, so that he'd still be around. The short TLDR version: Your boss doesn't always hate you, if they're not berating you. Sometimes they want the best for you, but they just don't say it.
I personally think linus is half right on the respect front. So here is my humble opinion in the vast sea of opinions in the internet: A baseline of respect should be given in the sense of simply being polite to each other. BUT more respect should be earned. Like starting at zero and either going up or down, depending on how well people work together.
That baseline is lost the moment you do something very stupid. Stupidity doesn't grant you kindness. And maybe, just maybe, that bad feeling the rudeness invokes in you will prevent you from doing such stupid things in the future. If you respond to stupidity with kindness, you can be sure they'll do it next time as well.
@@SoundboundOfficial thats what i have said. "Like starting at zero and either going up or down, depending on how well people work together." this obviously counts for every behavior. also people can still make up for stupid actions and earn back some or all of their trust that way. If you want an example, just look at the history of no mans sky.
Someone who screams at people on the street isn't deserving of respect as they haven't earned it, druggies, criminals and crazy people are everywhere. 'Respect should be given in the sense of simply being polite to each other' - > You dealing with a neighborhood with drug cartels and criminals, being polite isn't going to help you. Being polite to others is something that earns you respect, but those who aren't polite aren't deserving of respect.
@@SoundboundOfficial Humiliating somebody has nothing to do with respect. You either give respect or you don't. Showing disrespect on the other hand is Ego.
I’ve worked with people who thought themselves to be the genius amongst baboons. It’s a pain in the ass working with those individuals. Especially when their biases impede progress.
Progress how? I've worked with an asshole who thought that way about everyone, and their way of doing things were never up to his standards - turns out though he really was the genius, and everyone else me included had baboon intellect. So should he have allowed me to do my job terribly when he could do it better than me in every way and I was merely an inconvenience? Because, I would've impeded progress. I'm only asking because I'm curious, how do you know for sure that you are in fact not the problem and it's the other guy? My guess is that the proof is always going to be in the pudding.
@@zion6680Isn't this a different issue though? The guy's questions was chiefly about whether it is acceptable to insult. I think it's okay for someone far more competent to do what they want and not spend time one working well with people who's work is worse. I still think that more competent people shouldn't insult others. Avoiding insults is not something that impedes your own work. Linus said here that respect has to be earned but I'd say even people who haven't deserved your respect should not be insulted.
I think in the discussions here are two factors mixed together: moral and efficiency. Let’s ignore the moral and only focus on efficiency. Does Linus actually want to collab with people even if they are stupid? If so, he should respect, teach them and help them improve. If not, he should insult them and kick them out. I can tell that Linus actually dont like to work with people
The more I find about this guy, the more I like him. Such a refreshing sight in this overly political correct and social justice warrior bullied culture we inhibit.
+Turnipkin I agree, I do think he has Aspergers though. Maybe not, but I believe so personally. Either way he's what some people would call an Asshole, and I honestly like him for it.
+Turnipkin i would rather be insulted 10 times by a guy with his experience that falsely praised by a guy that knows nothing and being fired after that because i made a mistake or did something not "politically-correct" whatever that means.
I agree that things get way to 'pc'. But make sure to actually get the technicals here. Linus IS a hot head. He gets away with it because he's smart and in the father of Linux.. but he does ramp up to fast for what is otherwise a professional environment.
There are plenty of programmers who have 0 intuition and meanwhile IT is a field centered on problem solving so you will honestly ask "how the hell did this guy get this far?"
@@thomasjefferson4195 There’s blunt “Listen, man, you’re not yet a strong enough coder in C to be contributing to the kernel.” vs “Your mother should have aborted you.” His abrasiveness is more than offset by his enormous contributions to Linux.
If respect should be earned, then does that mean you treat people with disdain until they show value as per your personal criteria? That sounds like arrogance.
That's correct. But as he said, he grew up in a largely dysfunctional family, which probably made him see things from that perspective instead of accepting people as deserving common courtesy even when they make mistakes or aren't as accomplished as he is in his field.
if you give someone a reason to treat you with disdain, then you shall by all means, gets a exponentional amount of "disdain", respect is earned, dis-respect is also earned, you can not expect respect when you ram through someones front door sit there on their sofa demanding money and start demanding tea and respect.
@notepicon2215 I agree, but I understood that the default state is that no one has his respect initially, and people have work to show they deserve his respect. That is the arrogance I am talking about. Personally, if that is the case, I wouldn't associate with anyone like that, no matter how smart they are.
@@ahmedfarooqui6896 WELL you also have to understand that billions if not trillions of devices worldwide run linux, if some one trying to make a name for them self decides "today im gonna contribute to linux kernel and show it off to my friends" and that code is buggy, degrades performance or decreases scalability who will be blamed for it the poster? yes but linus as well for allowing it. and i understand that he can simply just tell them politely that there code is garbage, but imagine linus getting millions of such mails. obv any sane person would go nuts!
I feel, it's not about "giving respect", it's more about not being a bully and treating other humans with basic decency. Are these developers he is working with malicious and intending to make mistakes? He can assert dominance, show anger, and put people in line WITHOUT the personal insults such as suggesting they were too stupid to find a tit to suck on as a kid.
@@Jp-ue8xz you are a moron who should go back to studying basic english, as you clearly do not know the definition of "malicious" or "intent". To begin with "intent" already means "intentions" and I highly doubt these people are coming here with the intention of being "an evidently stupid adult" and malicious intent involves having the intent to do harm - they might have bad ideas, but bad ideas aren't malicious intent, as we know from the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
he does not. I ve seen Linus going very long in mail threads to help people asking for clarifications even if really not experts... when he FLAMES someone i quite always saw this to be really deserved...
Respect should be earned is indeed reflective of the environment I grew up in as well, and I drew the shortest straw in that as a child, I was never respected. So I got to think about this topic a lot, and the answer I found for myself was to have a sort of base-level of respect, that everyone I do not know gets from me, those I don't like go below that level, those I really don't like sink to the lowest levels, those I do like get a bit above that base-level, those I "truly" do respect are even higher up. However, one of the things I've found influence respect a lot is politeness, it is easier to earn respect by being polite than by being abrasive, and similarly, it's easy to lose respect by being abrasive, but not by being polite (unless you are respected for your abrasiveness, which as far as I know is completely unheard of) I consciously avoid blatantly insulting people, unless I detest them, and I want them to detest me right back. Because I have found that if I want to be heard, words mixed with insults will fly right through one ear and out the other. Words mixed with positive feedback (e.g. on the things I actually do like about whatever the topic is), will be heard. So while I was abrasive once as well, I am not anymore. It's not about respect, it's about self-respect for me, and for me it disrespects my own person to throw insults at individual people unless I really just want to see them burn from the bottom of my heart.
Cestarian Inhabitant Respect should be earned. You have an 'Innocent until proven guilty' attitude towards people you meet for the first time. That's a good way to be. However Linus has to respond to people he might never have met and only know of them from what they have written, many of which have proven undeserving of respect, just by their input. When Linus says "I don't know how he is alive when he obviously doesn't have the intelligence to find his mothers teat as a baby." It may be abrasive and not 'politically correct', yet accurate. He likes to call a spade a spade. It's not personal, but rather an analogy of how he sees someones understanding of a subject. It's a lot like being a manager sorting through job applications, you have to make quick decisions based not on the person, but rather what they have presented to you in their application.
Anton Cordell Yup, that's right, but the difference is that I don't judge people by what they say as easily as I judge them by what they do. Writing a bit of bad code; what's the big deal? Doesn't make it a stupid person, just means he didn't do it well enough. Everyone can make mistakes, it happens to the best of us. He disrespects everyone until they have proven worthy of respect, it's a very negative way of life, and mentally unhealthy (I can't imagine this attitude makes him happy...) But as the lead Linux kernel maintainer and developer, I think his attitude might actually be a necessary evil. The kernel needs to be the most solid part of any Linux system, as the guy who makes sure it stays that way, being spiteful towards programmers that send him dubious or imperfect code is probably the right thing to do in the long run. Without this attitude the kernel would be a lot more messy and unstable than it is right now, with a lot more of broken or incomplete features.
@@cestarianinhabitant5898 The thing is, when you submit patches to the Linux kernel, you ought to know the rules, especially the ones that provoke his rants. So if you break them, don't be surprised if Linus rips you a new one.
I see respect as a resource. I give everyone a bit of it for free when we first meet. Like a credit. And then they can either make more from it, or they can squander it. So yeah, great respect is mostly earned. A little respect is what we deserve by default. And no respect is the result of wasting it with one's words and actions.
Imagine if Linus had played Mr. Nice Sensitivity guy with every idiot that tried to insert broken/stupid code into the kernel. We wouldn't have a working linux kernel today, that's for damned sure. Kids today need to toughen up and drop this social warrior nonsense.
+Stephen Glasskeys "Imagine if Linus had played Mr. Nice Sensitivity guy with every idiot that tried to insert broken/stupid code into the kernel." Not all proposed changes are stupid or broken code, but just differ in design or philosophy or goal from Linus's vision. Like it or hate it, the Linux kernel is Linus's. And in the spirit of what Linus was saying one gets to chose people they like to work with, so If one don't like who he is working with, then he should go work on his own.
+Keith Reynolds Agreed. *Everybody* knows Linus doesn't have a tolerance for nonsense, yet some continue to act surprised and shocked when he demonstrates his lack of tolerance for nonsense.
+Stephen Glasskeys Everyone has the potential to one day contribute effectively, but if when they try to contribute they're berated for making a small mistake, do you really think they are going to even attempt to make another contribution?
+John Doe If all they see is 'being berated' instead of a team effort then it usually means they're too egocentric to see past the end of their own noses. The world needs more Linus Torvalds to flush out the pansies-asses who contribute nothing but waste valuable time on touchy-feely bullshit. Don't like the heat? Get out of the kitchen.
John Doe "Everyone has the potential to one day contribute...." sure, but take that to an extreme, and youll see that it is ineffective because it take way too much time to audit every ones code. But given enough time, a thousand monkys could randomly type out the entire linux kernel code.
And then after taking a short break continued to be about as abrasive as before. That too is old news. Then again the problematic part only seems to come out when some manage to piss him off by doing things that waste other people's time. I wonder how many people would actually even care if the clickbaity tech media didn't try to make a quick buck using this. To me it seems that people are conflating separate issues here and would need to be way more specific about what exactly they find problematic. Is it a problem that he gets pissed off or how he expresses that? Or do people have a problem with the meritocracy within the project? One way for people to avoid situations where they piss him off would be to think their ideas through better and possibly discussing them with Linus' "lieutenants" before taking those ideas to Linus himself. In other words just the normal process of vetting ones ideas before presenting the to the "boss" of the organization. Then again I assume that people normally have the common sense to do that and the incidents where Linus gets pissed off at having his time wasted are just the exception. But yes, I do understand that the way people react to someone messing up can have a chilling effect on the motivation and productivity of others. Then again it seems likely to me that this issue of poorly given feedback which is very common in all kinds of projects and work life in general is getting so much attention in this case simply due to how high profile a project the Linux kernel is and how the media wants to benefit from any incident.
"changed his mind" lol he got pressured by his woke bosses to tip toe around the babies. I saw a comment from the lady involved in that brouhaha. It was obvious she didn't care about the project's present nor its future: she was just being destructive for destructiveness sake, like most sjws. I'm so glad Linus survived that effing bs.
There is a difference between having respect for someone and communicating with others in a respectful way. You can dislike someone and still be civil when speaking to them. You do not have to do so. You have the option to be rude or offensive. However this expression of your character can be considered a serious flaw of character. A flaw serious enough that others may be justifiably rude in response. This leads to a less civil society as interactions devolve into insults and arguments.
You must be respectful in your conversation with other people to achieve expected result from them, I don't like the things Linus says because he sounds very childish when he insults someone or says something like "this is the best because I like it". I mean, you have the right to dislike something or someone but to discuss it you have to have good argument and not personal preference and insults. If you have to work with someone that treats you like shit just leave that place asap
How do you politely say "F*** off and don't waste my valuable time"? Every second some dumbass who had not spend a single day on the kernel, thinks he has something valuable to add. That he has an opinion. But he does not realize the whole problem scope nor context as Linus does. 80% of people in general are dumb. And you can't politely talk to every one of them. So you should just cut it short. And the shortest way is to add some rudeness. Other thing i strongly believe in... polite soft-talk leads to relaxed and lazy development. Instead more agressive and stright language keeps the fire burning which leads to more agressive competition, drive for respect, pure innovation. That said, i totally support Linus attitude.
@@Oswee actually 95% are pathetic if you use iq as a benchmark and if you also use personality tests like big 5,its much worse. Also I totally agree with you about telling others to piss off when they say things that make no sense and waste everyone's time. Again it just boils down to whether you want to be goal directed and increase your productivity or waste time and live in a delusion like most of the fools in this world.
I differentiate between the notions of "respect" and what I would call simple decency. Deep respect or admiration or belief in someone's work/abilities/ethic is indeed something that is earned. It takes time and special circumstances. Decency is a whole different matter. By all means tear their logic to pieces if something is wrong, but no need to be an overbearing asshole. Say something along the lines of "Your solution does not work for X reasons or Y reasons. Or, this is suboptimal." It really is possible to be honest, constructive, and professional. It's all about critique of LOGIC, not saying they should have been aborted which is pretty deplorable to say in any context. Even if Linus is an ass at times, I'm glad he's here. To me that isn't really about being politically correct. It's simply common sense. If you are honest yet don't go out of your way to be vicious to someone, they will likely work with you quite well. Obviously, people are not perfectly rational robots at all times, even people with a high level of composure. However, when things do become tense, if people see that you are honest but generally well-meaning 90% of the time, the professional or even personal relationship/friendship/whatever is still very salvageable. You have not lost someone who could end up being a major plus to your project/cause. This is not to say that people should be on the other end of the spectrum either. There are people out there who freak out if someone even disagrees with them.
Well, this isn't about making friends, but about creating a product (an operating system kernel). It makes all sense in the world to be rude to people who have been told again and again that their code isn't up to the required standards, and yet they keep trying to force the admins to get the code merged.
Javi Lavandeira I said nothing about "friends" whatsoever. If you read my comment carefully you would understand that. What I'm referring to is basic professionalism.
Oh, but you *were* talking about making friends, and I see that you've now edited your message to say something else. When did the substance of a message become less important than the words used to convey it? I think you people are becoming way oversensitive and too offended at big, scary words. You can take your "basic professionalism", your euphemisms and your political correctness and stick them all deep inside your ass, where they belong. :-) I'm on Linus' side here. When you have a bad developer submitting crappy code and getting rejected again and again, who keeps trying other channels after being told to stop being annoying, at some point you have to stop being subtle and tell the guy to go the fuck away, which is exactly what happened here.
Yeah I always felt this way about teachers. We were always expected to show them respect, but I only respected the ones who deserved it because there were alot of dickheads who let their position of authority get to their heads and they made me either hate school or hate whatever particular subject they were teaching because they weren't helping me learn the material
@@einarabelc5 Well, he's not a teacher and I never had him as one. But if I ever have him as a professor one day, then I would definitely hold him under the same precept
@@MegaVRAK No, there are always exceptions to every rule. Take the creators of reese for example. Say what you will, but they will automatically always have my eternal respect and gratitude.
I feel this way towards my family. They're expecting me to respect them when they're all unreasonable sons of bitches with short tempers. As i'm used to it, I often prefer to either laugh it off or ignore it, but motherfucker sometimes I just have enough of them because of how annoying they are. They expect me to think highly of them when even in the most minor of things, they would complain or mock me. Especially my mother and grandmother. I could still somewhat understand my mother's unreasonable-ness because she's been taking care of me for so long, but gosh my grandma is on a whole different level. It's like it runs on the fucking family line. It's a good thing i'm different from then and actually knows what PATIENCE means. Sorry about the curses here, i'm just genuinely pissed off right now as i've had enough of it once again for like the millionth time.
A bit tiring how this keeps coming up. I think it is grossly unfair to Linus. A lot of this is as he says hyperbole and joke like. And these comments are in relation to technology discussion. I've never heard that Linus is a bully in a personal conversation. It is just words, he doesn't screw people over. A lot of sweet talking people who are backstabbers and ruining peoples lives in various ways. I never heard any story about Linus actually doing something mean to someone, the way Steve Balmer, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates etc have done. And honestly it does annoy me slightly that American's keep grinding on about this. One talks about being so inclusive, but yet American's act as if American sense of politeness, friendliness and proper behavior is universal. I had an American colleague who kept getting offended about everything. It was quite tiring for everybody trying to explain to him all the time that something was not intended as an insult and was completely neutral. I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all. Just like people can be perfectly friendly and nice while swearing a lot. I'd say content and tone is far more important to show respect and friendliness. When an American customer representative drones away to me with a robot voice about how much his company values me as a customer and what a pleasure it was to serve me, I just find it really offensive because his voice clearly indicates that what he is saying isn't true. I am not Finnish myself but being a fellow Nordic I'd say Linus likely thinks the most offensive thing is being fake and dishonest.
"you are so stupid that I can't believe you found a tit to suck on" - makes me wonder how he ended up being a programmer not a stand-up comedian, this is prime, golden (oh and by the way, I would not be surprised if you didn't pick up on the sarcasm there, so yeah, it was sarcasm)
"I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all." Bro, you fucking said it.
I really hate how the insult is taken with literally no context as to what warranted it. The guy getting insulted could've been a dumb fuck but we will never know (in this video at least)
It's kind of going in extremes with words: you don't give out respect left and right, but there are just simple grounds where you don't need to earn it to be heard either. It's supposed to be in the middle.
You can't teach someone that isn't willing to learn! and when your more concerned about your "feelings" than the work maybe you should just go home to mommy and not play with the grown ups!
@@JonnyTBooker Most people who describe themselves as “abrasive” or just take pride in being a jerk as if it’s a replacement for having a personality don’t try, or even care if the person is willing to learn. Especially in elitist tech spaces. Also, work exists to serve humanity, part of which is our feelings, not the other way around.
“Respect should be earned” in a vacuum is completely reasonable thing to say, but, if you look at the context of who Linus was disrespecting and why, you start to see the issue. He’s not just just saying “respect should be earned,” he’s saying “respect should be earned, and these people didn’t deserve my respect because I think they’re less intelligent than me.” Anyone involved in tech knows Linus isn’t the only person who thinks this way, and I think it’s one of the reasons so many people are put off by tech culture
@@SoundboundOfficial They expect THEIR level of intelligence, it's a different thing and you don't have to have it because even a normal person could contribute to the project otherwise you're arrogant.
@@SoundboundOfficial There is a difference between great respect and basic respect. To not be able to follow simple courtesy makes you out to be an animal with no dignity rather than an intelligent member of the human species.
I think the problem here isn't so much about respect, but about civility, no matter how bad an employee is, insulting them, especially on a public mailing list is just sorta unprofessional. Having said that of course, it is hard to tell the context of the insult, based simply on the words, it depends somewhat on the relationship between the employer and the employee, and how seriously and belligerently the insult was meant
I also 100% agree with Linus, we need more honesty rather than back slapping which IMHO is wasting energy, people should be less easily offended and more focused on the matter and what is right or wrong rather then their feelings being hurt. I wish there were more people like Linus rather than politically correct assholes that will get us nowhere in terms of progress.
***** I don't know the context in the dispute. But I assume he (Linus) wasn't taking about UI. Anyhow, there always are people truly incapable of straightening their conduct to if so only soothe your sensitive intermediates. Torvalds, he the lance, the offender, stern. Some even rattle my earthcaressed scaffolds, so it bothers me, but in truth not.
The only constructive part about "Your code is not good enough to be acceptable as a patch because of X. Fix it" is the "X". In your "Your code sucks" example, you neglect to include X. Obviously, it is not constructive. (That's not to say that I would _personally_ go about it the way Linus does.)
Saying "No, this code is bad." is much easier and more respectful than "You are too stupid to even stay alive and I don't know how your mother gave birth to you....". Respect has two sides: personal and professional. If he was truly a technical and pragmatic person, then he would have chosen the first one. Just because, someone is bad at a skill does not give anyone to make disrespectful remarks about their personality. They are two different things. "Your code is bad" is a comment on someone's skill, which can be acceptable. But saying "You are stupid" is simply an attack on his/her personality for which no one has right to do so. Personal respect is earned through birth. It is the respect that keeps us all alive. Being a kind person does not mean you are trying to be politically correct, it means you are being a nice person. If there are nicer ways to tell something, then saying it offensively instead is nothing but satisfying your own ego and showing people how awesome you are. Also, just because someone is good at something, it does not mean they will be good at everything even if they are your hero in a particular area. He cries out loud about his lack of skills in human relationships, and people think he is just being cool. Nope. He simply confuses the hypocrisy behind being politically correct with being a genuinely nice person.
This is exactly my opinion! I know people who point out bad code and are welcoming, because they know this is how the community will grow. Being rude is a choice, you wrote the kernel, great, but you weren't born coding like you do today either, you gradually improved. Slapping someone with a personal comment over bad code will take away their will to be better more often than otherwise.
i use linux and i wouldn't have it any other way. I would much prefer Linus with his "you should've been aborted" emails. If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have linux today. Leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants. It's his creation, people with their politeness will ruin it like they ruined everything else.
No person deserves respect before it's earned period. You are born into this life with a promise that you will die. There is nothing to respect. If i precieve you as an idiot i will tell that you're an idiot not mask it with superficial words for your fragile mind to process in a positive light. Grow up.
I too believe that respect should be earned BUT there is something called 'mutual respect' which kinda keeps our species from killing each other outright! And I did say 'kinda' because that statement isn't clear cut by any means... And we all know that, deep down, if we threw out the concept of mutual respect, this planet would tear itself apart in weeks! Sometimes, you just have to grin and bear People... Otherwise you just create relentless conflict...
Respect should be earned but the default stance towards other people should preferably be good enough so you don't insult them immediately. (Just a general thought)
lol it's because he's defending the position of a boss to be a brash prick, and all of them are employees, not bosses... Although frankly he's not wrong about earning respect
@@filipelimartins Have a neutral opinion? How can you see someone walking down the street and respect them or disrespect them w/o knowing them at all? You can also respect someone for being a hard worker but not respect them in other areas.
His response is in a way like Finland in a nutshell. Say what you think and no more. If someone is offended, too bad. I hope to see a statue of him someday in Helsinki.
A modicum, perhaps, but some come to open source projects with perverse ulterior motives. And if those are discovered, that modicum should go out the window.
That's like saying when a stranger comes walking up to a group of friends playing football and starts to play the ball should be respected. I mean. No. The stranger doesn't know them, he doesn't own the ball, he doesn't know which team he should be playing in. You can argue that he's "contributing" to the game by playing football but everyone else are right to say "who the fuck is this guy and who does he think he is?" Now if the stranger comes prepared, maybe with a ball of his own and some gear and asks the group if he can join them to play for a bit then that's a whole different kind of thing.
Not really, especially on large well established projects as a some people join these just for the clout of being on a big project they can plonk on their CV. Even on smaller projects you get a lot of people joining just for the power rush, I used to contribute to a well established OSS game and met plenty of coders that gave no care to how the game played or what the community wanted, and just pushed changes based on their own whims. So no, submitting code contributions should not automatically earn you respect
When working on a project as a project leader, and you find someone incompetent, there are couple ways to proceed. 1. Tell them that this isn't going well for them and that their skills are not good enough for the job. 2. Tell them that they are so incompetent that they should have been aborted and saying your surprised that they are still alive, because of their stupidity. Notice how the first response doesn't attack the project team member as a person. It is just honest feedback of their work. The other on the other hand attacks the person as a whole. "Nothing is good in them, they would be better off dead." It is just being a decent person really. Respect is mutual. I respect honest feedback for my work, I actually need to get some critical feedback in order to better my skills. But if I would get this kind of feedback from a boss like Linus, I would feel absolutely terrible. I would lose my confidence for working, start lacking self esteem and of course perform even worse. I would absolutely hate working for Linus with that attitude. I've had the worst bosses with that attitude. Feedback needs to be honest for sure, but not insulting.
No one cares what you think soyboi. Also, if Linus were to be giving you that kind of feedback, you think you'd still be working there? No, you idiot. You don't get that kind of feedback and get to keep your job. But I guess we can just add that to the pile of evidence we have that you're nothing more than a brain dead fool.
When you get too close of someone that level, most of the people are going to get burned. He surely will remember his mistake, wether some "respectful" feedback will help him to keep doing mistakes.
Like Software, people change too. Please don't judge a man now because of something he said years ago. The fact that Linus changed his attitude years after (in Kernel mailing list) makes me respect him even more.
+John Doe i wouldn't go as far by saying he 'bullied' some people. He just expressed his opinions in a derogatory way. That is simply not a politically correct thing to do.
People not having earned our respect in our own eyes is not the bar we should set for justifying our own disrespect towards them. That doesn't mean you owe them the respect of entertaining their ideas or opinions. It just doesn't justify disrespecting them due to differing ideas or opinions. This is the thought pattern that is responsible for everything wrong with society.
He couldn't find the courage to take responsibility and promise to keep his anger. His explanation is BS. Everyone respected him hi whole life, even before he became famous. He is just a bully.
People looking at this in the bold future of 2022 (at least) should know that since this Linus publicy apologised for previous 'unprofessional' conduct and 'inability to communicate' and, from what I can see, seems to have taken a more conciliatory stance than what he shows here
Yes, because of the mediatic pressure, the rampant cancel culture/censorship and defamation of everyone who doesn't conform to "political correctness" and "woke ideals" in the West
so if you meet someone new the baseline is being disrespectful unless they`ll earn your respect? man this dude did a lot for the world of software engineering but let's not study his moral compass.
That what sickens me. People like Linus and in this comment section don't seem to realize that respect works both ways. You can't just expect everyone to respect you from the get go without respecting anybody because you are special and your respect needs to be earned. Or rather, you can expect it, but that's not good or healthy behavior. At all.
Linus Torvalds, technically a brilliant guy. That's all. No more no less than that. It's hilarious when he tries to justify his attitude due to his family. Man you have a whole life to improve as a human being.
"Man you have a whole life to improve as a human being." why? To be accepted by you or people like you? I am sure that he is PRETTY happy the way he is and even better, he won't change the way he is to be liked by random people because he truly gives ZERO fucks. Its just a dude doing his thing, making the world a better place. He, being a douche, is doing more that can be said of 99.9999% of the population.
@@krunkle5136 that’s not a cause for disrespecting someone though. That sort of thinking will land you in a *HEAP* of trouble in the real world. It’s important to remember that not everyone is Linus Torvalds.
So respect for Linus means "I won't attack your persona with insults because I deem you knowledgeable enough" ? If he doesn't find someone on par with his knowledge and skill level, his solution is to give them feedback on how mad he is at them for being a human failure. Yep, that seems very efficient and productive... Or it's just that he gets a dopamine rush when he insults people since he does it with a passion.
Such insults are not totally personal. Usually he gave feedbacks because those works have to do with his project. For a huge open source project, it is good to keep some kind of people away in a straiforward way if you think their work is harmful to the project. Such damages are usually hard to reverse and gradually accumulate over time for such a big project. Maybe the fact he is mean is one of the reason linux is successful.
He can treat people however he wants, but treating people like shit hasn't ever been the solution. We should all know by know that being mean only brings resentment inside the people you are mean to. Trying to be appreciative and supportvie brings in them a feeling of "I have to do better for this guy appreciates what I do and I don't want to fail him."
i used to have the mentality that respect should be earned but ive grown up since then. everyone deserves respect by default, but they can definitely lose it.
Respect is earned. The only thing people deserve no matter what is baseline civility, but beyond that a person doesn't by default deserve kind words especially if they're being a dick or being stupid.
I,can’t believe people are offended, such snowflakes. Personally I would love to work with him. Being rated like that motivates me to do better. He doesn’t say stuff without reason.
It seems to me that the people who are most adamant about being treated with kid gloves are the first ones to toss out words like nazi, facist, hater, racist, sexist....
Interesting observation. Might be because they can't comprehend others so they have to put labels to simplify their understanding. And that same lack of comprehension doesn't allow them to see their own mistakes or take critics in a less personal way. Like in this video, Linus have insulted people maybe because they are doing a crap work or the release of the software is stressful, lots of moving pieces all the time, but those guys fail to see beyond the insult and want to be treated nicely for what? In my case I don't expect a congratulations when I do a good job, it is what I'm paid for, and if I get criticized I either try to improve or I have backup evidence that I did the best possible in a scenario. In an open source environment with no bosses they can say whatever they want, I think it is cooler because you probably get really grilled and learn more than in a censored environment like a regular company.
You will be kicked out if you act this way at a BIG software or IT company (not talking about start-ups). Some employees struggle with depression or other mental health issues. Some are quite sensitive to insults and condescending looks. This really shouldn't need any justification so I'm not sure I writing any. If people are insulting you where you work, you should be reporting that to HR or wherever you can. There is a basic, minimum amount of respect that should be enforced at all work places: the right not to be insulted. The reason Linus can get away with this is because he works in open-source and there is no HR department to enforce basic rules of respect. By acting this way, he alienates a whole set of people who cannot mentally deal with people who are toxic on a regular basis.
+BOT Opie "You will be kicked out if you act this way at a BIG software or IT company (not talking about start-ups)." Of course you will, big companies are ridden by the PC cancer. Not because they care about their employees but because they want to look good in front of investors, which has an impact on their share price which in turn has a knock on effect on executive's bonuses and share options. HR departments are there to protect companies bottom line not employees, anyone who believes that it's otherwise is either very gullible or very inexperienced.
Sure. But Linus insults people that fuck up patches for his kernel (or at least that what I can gather from the examples that are brought up). Pretty sure he knows when someone deserves an insult over a patch review, which would then mean that isn't his "default" way of treating other human beings but rather his "angry because you fucked up" way.
I think it`s a cultural issue. In northern/eastern part of Europe saying that you "fucked something up" is no big deal, and you have to prove that you have skills to earn respect in workplace. Of course no one is born great programmer/engineer/doctor/welder etc. but no one will say that you are doing great while you are... not doing great, you have to work hard to get yourself out of the noob status.
"i work with people from a lot of different cultures and the one thing that unites us is that we can make jokes about each other"..in other words you seem like a racist fukface...this is the way people who want to abuse others personally talk...it's all fun and games until it starts getting out of hand
It's the ability to dish out insults that should be earned not given. Torvalds is brilliant enough to get away with it. The sad part is he is influencing a platoon of programmers - most with a fraction of his skill - but made proud, by his influence, to be arrogant and rude. This fact may take it's toll on the morale of engineering workers worldwide - especially the morale of junior or inexperienced programmers. Torlvald's approach is unnecessary and, as he mentions, is possivly due to his family and cultural dynamics. A different approach is to say "I see you are having trouble. Please let me take you to find your mothers "tit"". One such exposure to her "tit", may very well fix the problem forever. Lashing out with abusive insults does nothing to help the programmer find the "tit". Another important point here is this: Sometimes when a person's work performance or competence is judged, they may be encountering serious problems in their lives and might otherwise perform better. I have a vague memory from Steven Covey's book, "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". Covey describes a paradigm shift. A child is behaving wildly on a subway - angering the passengers. The paradigm shift comes when it is learned the child is on her way home from the hospital after witnessing the death of her mother. After the shift, the child's behavior no longer bothers the riders - In fact they may shed a tear.
Or we can stop coddling people and tell them to suck it up buttercup. Linus is not your life coach. Either work on the project or don't. Contribute something useful and you earn his respect. Screw up the project and/or try to submit bad code and you earn his ire. It's on you which side you want to see of him.
@@pharoah327 This is exactly the example of the first point raised by the OP. You who have less than a fraction of the ability of the brilliant yet act like they are the shit, just ready to spit out rules and the how the world works for other people like it's somehow your business. The things is, getting on the good or bad side of Torvalds is going to be irrelevant and inapplicable for most of the developers out there as most people are just like you. The problem is that many well-meaning developers who will be productive in the very near future turning into yet another pile of garbage by getting on bad side of people like YOU. Having to bear through a lecture and snobbish from one incompetence to another, without anything useful to fruit from it as people like you are incapable and hostile, believing that the eccentricity of your behavior somehow will make you appear brilliant at what you do. So all the cons of having Torvalds next to you, with none of the pros.
@@Epoche000 yeah but see the problem is that I have the skills to back it up. This is not a self assessment. This is from the words of every employer I've had and feedback from users of my software. I've even had several jobs give me a raise without me having to ask (and no, not a cost of living raise, an actual raise). I have a high level of skill mainly because I actually paid attention and tried my hardest while learning this stuff. It's only after writing tens of thousands of lines of code that you can consider yourself to be good at this. People who think they can skate by, do the minumum, and get undeserved praise is annoying. You gotta earn that shit. You gotta try your hardest and learn from your mistakes. You have to earn respect. I think the problem is junior devs fresh out of college thinking they write code like senior devs and not wanting to hear criticism. You will write shit code for the first 10 years of learning. It's only after that that you can consider your code to be passable and decent. Then if you continue to try your hardest and keep learning, you will one day write actually good code. Programming is hard and I don't think many people appreciate the difficulty behind it.
We need more people to think like Linus about this subject. If this pattern of coddling everyone continues humanity will cease to progress. You need criticism from others, it helps you build character.
Yeah there is too much political correctness in a lot of project and professional circles in the hi-tech industry. I read some article a while back that Americans unlike Asians have a hard time taking criticism.
+Nicholas Von Hieronymus "We need more people to think like Linus..." Right.. because writing a comment "What's this shit?" after a code commit is a constructive criticism... Sure.
ADMIRATION should be earned. Respect is just a default social courtesy. It can be revoked if they are really undeserving of it, but basic respect is a given in social settings. Online I know it is a different world though and it's easy to say things you wouldnt say to someone's face, at least not in the same way. In that sense the internet is antisocial.
Respecting everyone indiscriminately is respecting nobody, if you give respect as a default social courtesy it stops having meaning, at least that's how I see it.
Political correctness is false correctness because it is politically motivated - it doesn't come from heart. It also shouldn't be confused with politeness. You can send someone very politely to hell.... True respect has to be earned and Torvalds is absolutely right about that.
+Gaurab Chatterjee Freedom of speech does not mean you can freely insulting others when you feel like it. There are many ways to express disapproval. Simply saying something like neutral "Your work is not up to standard", "Your codes are suitable for the project" etc.
Back in the day more of us liked a good roast even if we were on the receiving end and the roaster was someone like a mentor or that you respected. I still do but sadly a lot of people take roasts to heart when they really shouldn't. From the right person and context, a roast just means, DO BETTER. I think some of Gen-Z gets it again but many of the Millennials were raised thin skinned and fragile. Of course, in most contexts, roasting someone is rude and possibly hurtful. But in the context of Linus talking about someone wanting to put a mess into his Linux Kernel a roast might be just the thing.
The problem is you really just can get away with saying stuff like that if you're the go to guy in that specific area. If you are the guy who is on top in that technology you can throw away all good manners and people will still accept it. However he might take the motivation away completely from this guys he's tearing down. He says to them that they aren't smart enough to code for his product and that can do harm to their self esteem. Better just telling them what was wrong about their work
I can imagine if code needs to be written at this level of importance (Linux), you cannot start teaching people. You need to filter away those who are not good enough. That alone takes up so much time already. Though you can filter them with honest words about their skills while still respecting them as human beings and being thankful for their efforts to help.
I'm with him on this one; in fact, I don't see how one could justify the opposite attitude. If someone hates me, I find it more decent if he tells me to go f*** myself openly instead of sugarcoating the poison or being so lukewarm as not having a clear opinion on anything. Of course, some people extend that too far and justify being unnecessarily rude, but extreme political correctness often makes any kind of constructive discussion impossible because someone will always be offended by something. Hell, some people will be offended if you're not completely enthusiastic about their bullshit, let alone hating it.
being rude and being politically incorrect are orthogonal concepts, they have nothing to do with each other directly, and may be indirectly correlated, yeah, but not because of nature of either you definitely do not need to be an arrogant imbecile to tell someone you do not like their code, don't think they are good programmers or whatever.
Then why why invest time in insulting other people for a newbie mistake? Isn't saying "no, that's wrong" enough and way more efficient than writing an essay on how stupid the person is?
@@superharryboy It definitely is. Not to mention that the feelings of a worker directly influence their ability to be productive. Most of the time this kind of attitude is just an excuse to be an asshole and seem tough in the process. Either that or the person simply doesn't know any better.
Great points made in the replies here already. I’ll just add, productivity exists to serve humanity and by extension our feelings. Not the other way around. Productivity is not the be all end all of existence.
I think the more appropriate word to use is "civility" or "decency." While respect may be earned, that is not justification for disrespect. You can be brutally honest to someone without telling them you think they should be dead. That's abusive.
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Respect should be earned.
Disrespect should be earned.
To be ignored is free.
I think this is how humanity works.
and it's fineeeeeeee
To be ignored is the most important human right.
Internet access is NOT a human right. You pay for the privilege.
It’s the male merit vs female communitarian point of views
@@heloxiii8894 It’s the male merit vs female communitarian point of views
@@RR-et6zp What.
I have the feeling that this mentality only works when you're in a position of authority, like Linus is. If I started talking to my tech lead or my boss like this, even if I might know more than them technically, I'd get fired.
That's the whole point of the video. You get fired from one place, but you might be embraced by another place because they resonate with your style of communication.
Of course if you find yourself being angry at everything constantly, then it's a different sort of problem.
Interestingly, I read your comment and thought about how being as abrasive as Linus would be fine in my current job, but not so fine in any prior job. I definitely think that the most important thing is the technology (results) and bosses will tolerate more than you think if you're an excellent programmer, but only in certain cultures (and probably not nearly half in the US at this time).
Happened to me twice. Didn't even talk 1 / 10th of the shit talked about here, And I was demonstrably right in the cases that most probably led to me being fired.
Would still do it again.
I will probably not land a high paying job very soon any more, but I really don't care.
I most definitely don't have the success, finances or smarts like Linus, but I really feel what he's saying, so I guess it's stronger than ourselves.
About authority, I don't think that's the thing. It works only if you can find people that are ok with this direct and open attitude AND share a common goal that is also profitable in financial terms, or gives respect or energy from doing this.
Also, in Linus case, his authority grew naturally, in part because it's his baby, but also because the respect he deserved over the years from being dedicated and working hard.
But yes, in general, I agree with what you say.
@Мукура Блуд That's not "The beauty of open source", that is "the beauty of open source when you develop famous software everyone is interested in", as everyone is interested in, these people are kinda stuck with their bosses.
Look at Steve jobs . Most people who worked with him couldn't stand him as he was so demanding beyond belief.
The tech boss so open-source, even his feelings are actually public. Thats dope.
0:43 _(...) I've actually seen projects that took the whole political correctness so far that the project is no longer is about the technology_
that's prophetic, isn't it?
Sorry, I'm out of the loop. What happened?
Linus bend the knee, end of last year, and permitted the PC-cancer into the kernel-community, by stepping down and letting them install a "code of conduct". You know, just like they did in e-sports. Multiple kerneldevs then threatend to pull their code.
In other words: Linux is now infected, down to the kernel. It's not "taken over" yet, but the cancer has firmly taken root, and will only spread.
@@lyxar777 Sorry, infected by what exactly? Your perception of an ideological encroachment?
Dervish: It has no fitting official name yet (they themselves call it "intersectional feminism", which is misleading since it has nothing to do with the original feminism. In fact, the original feminists despise it. Opponents call the perpetrators "SJWs", but that's misleading too, since it has nothing to do with justice or being social).
A fitting name would be something like "Cultural and sexual marxism", since that's essentially their ideological system: Applying Marx's beliefs about economies to culture. For example, instead of declaring a class-hierachy the problem, they declare a cultural and sexual hierachy the problem. Some things stay the same though, such as establishing a new "influencer-class" (themselves), to engineer society.
@@lyxar777 How Orwellian that there is no name for it. Linux was the last bastion of meritocracy. I saw it at a big western multinational telco vendor. The rot starts with HR and new equity rules. In less than 12 months (one revision cycle) the equipment can't get 99.99% uptime any more.
Socialists have a name for this process. "The long march through the institutions." Give it a wikipedia.
"Not everybody agrees, and that's fine, too!"
How dare you say that! I disagree!!!1!11!1!
@RoastedLemonz OMG I'm so offended by your disagreement on Julian's disagreement!1!!1!!111!
YOU ASSAULTED ME EVERYONE SAW IT! CANCEL THIS COMMENT!
For modern standards, that's racist and you should be cancelled.
Bro. This joke has become too real, and it's not funny anymore... Like, "main" branch? Are you f*cking serious? The newest "git" even warns you about changing the default branch name.
Torvalds: Respects should be earned, but disrespect is free.
It was probably earned too.. Only thing you get for free is idgaf
That's something abusive people say to justify being an asshole.
You made a very good point
He is trying to justify abusive behaviour. It is the disrespect that should be earned, not respect. Google tit for tat strategy. My default position is to show respect to everyone until they create reasons for me to disrespect them.
For example, I would give my seat to an elder person on a bus out of respect, but if I see that it is a disrespecting asshole or Karen, I would not give up my seat.
You should always give a benefit of the doubt because we are not robots so we can make mistakes. There are some really good developers that would refuse to work in such environment even if they are not at the end of his rants.
@@srki22 i agree w/ the last line of your statement but the problem w/ it is that most ppl will give you genuine reason to not respect them w/in a few interactions, and then you have ppl complaining about not getting the respect they supposedly deserve. it also helps to consider that different ppl have a different scope or gauge to whom how or why they extend respect. generally, i tend to respect ppl most for cathartic behaviour, or honesty rather, which is often misconstrued as being mean or abusive. those types of ppl are just sick of your (im gemeralizing) bullshit. in my experience, once youve figured out what they perceive as worthy of their respect, and adapt to that, they are the fairest and most reliable ppl to have in your life. i always draw the line w/ someone when i catch them in a lie or expecting more from me than what they are willing to penny.
"Shut up and compile that kernel!"
Bonus points if you use your own compiler, like Terry did.
@@fungo6631 Cringe.
@@ldskjfhslkjdhflkjdhf Uh, oh! Another CIA glow in the dark!
@@fungo6631 Cringe.
@@ldskjfhslkjdhflkjdhf CIA glow in the dark alert!
A society of victims by default. If Linus Torvalds told me to retroactively abort myself it would probably be one of the highlights of my whole year.
If your life is that devoid of joy I pity you. Linus is a god only in his own mind. The Linux kernel is a team effort and although he's the captain he's really not that special. Neither is Linux for that matter. Do yourself a favor and go to a park, hug your relatives, or find some other way to unplug.
I'd say it more fully embraces your concept of a joy filled life to embrace interactions in all of their nuances as opposed to getting caught up on being polically correct. And I think you'll find the result of many individuals groundbreaking work results in an effort of many individuals. And full disclosure, I'm not a Linux proponent in any capacity, so your fanboy angle doesn't fly either.
William MacLeod
"Embrace interactions in all of their nuances?" That's a fancy way of saying that you will put up with other people's crap. My position is that one should be a man/woman and stand up for oneself instead of allowing a man-child to treat them like a welcome mat. Its not about being a fanboy its about human decency. If you want to live your life as a castrato and allow people to treat you like crap then go right ahead. I don't kiss anyone's ass.
Yes I'm a fan of Linux. Yes I'm a fan of free software. What does that have to do with it? Where is my "fanboy angle"? I even said that Linux isn't that impressive which it isn't. There are far more interesting projects that don't get any attention.
I respect Linus Torvalds for starting Linux but I don't respect his attitude. It takes true inner strength to treat people as you would want to be treated. Anyone can be an egomaniac and treat people as nothing but worker bees. It takes a MAN to step outside of himself and realize that what he's doing is wrong. Linus does not do that. Instead he makes excuses. Its not political correctness. Saying that someone should have been retroactively aborted has NOTHING to do with political correctness. It has EVERYTHING to do with being an entitled asshat. Linux is bigger than Linus. He acts like he wrote the whole kernel himself when he has really contributed less than 5% to its codebase.
LTS1287
Jesus, you act like *you're* the person he said needed to be retroactively aborted. I wish people would get this passionate about shit that actually mattered. That would be cool.
ThoughtForge5 You just parroted Linux, and you want respect.....? Earn it, then. And shut your damn mouth.....
1:42 "Living together is not by finding some lowest common denominator" As much as I lead with empathy in as many situations as possible, this is probably the most true he said during his whole answer.
Well, it *could* be, and often is in many places, but its a matter of politics whether and where and to what degree it happens.
Then he punctuates his emails with _you idiot_ . 😂
"I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all."
This man saw the future. Look at America now, holy shit that was fast.
@@Kimchi_Studios America has always been like this lol-look at southern culture “bless his/her heart” can usually be inferred to mean the stupid fucker based on tone
This isn't about superficial friendliness. This is about a man who openly insults other human beings in an over-the-top-manner. I am certain if he insulted you, you would not respect him. You may remain quiet and kiss his arse, but that would last until you finally realized just what a jerk he is and had enough.
@@timisa58 he is an ass, I don’t think anyone is contesting that...
@@timisa58 And yet this is an honest man, who doesn't need to hide behind superficial words as OP described. I rather talk to someone like this, then being waterboarded with fake pretense.
How times have changed...
You mean how much he has sold himself.
CeroTee hopefully for more than 30 pieces of silver...
Have they? Has Linus been forced out, has he caved to his daughter's wishes, has he been bought, say by Microsoft and Google because Linux is about to begin a decade of growth that will see it become their competition? Lots of questions with no answers.
He did it because of his little SJW daughter
Felipe Cabrera I'm sure that she's part of this. But I think that everybody is missing an angle on this. In 2018 alone, Microsoft has bought Git which was founded by Linus specifically to maintain Linux, and bought it's way into the Linux Foundation in the same year that Valve has integrated WINE seamlessly into Steam to grow the Linux user base specifically as a counter to Microsoft's obvious designs to close the Windows ecosystem. At the same time next year a Linux powered smartphone which completely avoids the Google ecosystem is landing on the market that will actually get even the FSF approval, and it's coming from a company that has experience succeeding with Linux devices. It will eventually be a competitor.
In other words, it makes a lot of sense for both Microsoft and Google to be behind this, especially Microsoft. The only way M$ can possibly take down Linux is from within.
Treating someone with respect and actually respecting someone are 2 different things.
everyone starts at 'common courtesy' you can either go up or down the ladder based on your actions.
He cannot differentiate between these:
Respect: basic decency which should be afforded to all by default, in recognition of their humanity. Assumption of goodwill until shown otherwise. This kind of respect is not earned but can be lost.
Respect: admiration and status earned over time by the display of someone's best qualities and high performance. This kind of respect must be earned, and is not given by default.
There is a time and place for each of these things. He should learn to put down someone's work or opinions without insulting their humanity.
But hey, what can we expect from someone who has no humanity himself outside of his work.
@@andyhilal1228 that kind of respect isn't respect at all it is common courtesy. Respect is earned, and any "respect" that is shown prior is disingenuous.
@@benruss4130 fine, semantic distinction, but okay. Linus should treat people with common courtesy and he does not, disingenuously arguing that "respect should be earned" and whining about political correctness instead of just not being an asshole.
@@ahilal Is he really such a great asshole and are his remarks really undeserved?
I love how Linus is so calm and nice, yet so abrasive at the same time, LOL. You can tell he's not actively trying to be mean, and that he's not hateful. Like he said, people are different. Grow up in different cultures, in different families, and have different personalities and worldviews. And nobody's perfect either, of course. But I greatly respect him for it
Saying things to people like they should be retroactively aborted isn't being abrasive, it's hostile and hateful. Linus seems to confuse expression of self and expression of contempt, you can express dissatisfaction to people in a way that communicative and gives them the opportunity to improve, or you can be a self aggrandizing ass and make it about making yourself feel better than other people like he seems to. The man seems to create conflict for no reason, and he's not being playful.
@@Ravie1 Yeah, it's one thing to say someone's work was terrible. That's bluntly honest and abrasive. It's quite another to insult the person directly.
Maybe part of the problem is not being able to tell tone from a text post.
@@jacobscrackers98 Maybe part of the problem is Torvalds is an asshole, and people tolerate him being an asshole.
@@Ravie1 wahhhhhh
The test for me is how Linus reacts when he is insulted. He faces nice people, from what I've seen.
He showed it when people applauded the guy for the respect opinion. He didn’t really like it I think.
@@champfisk5613 And that's totally fine. He doesn't have to work with this crowd anyways, who cares.
@@LemonVRC meh you are him, I appreciate his contribution, but still doesn't mean he has to be a dick
@@turtle1692 Lots of truth to that. I wish Linus followed that advice when it comes to sun like players such as Nvidia and Intel. I guess he realises that gods fall.
@@champfisk5613 PC is regressive, and destructive. Honesty is what moves innovation. You don't like it? Leave. Cry-babies like you are becoming a scourge upon this planet.
Some people are polite because they’re genuinely considerate, but most are polite because they need to be. This just shows the degree to which he genuinely doesn’t answer to anyone. His personality is un-touched by the pressures of society, which basically by definition, makes it a personality society condemns.
Respect should be earned.
but if you have a gun, same thing.
Hard necro-post response, but I think you've got a pretty twisted view on humanity. Most people don't begrudgingly participate in social norms. Most people are more than happy to participate in social norms. I think you might be projecting.
If Linus said to me "you should be retroactively aborted", I'd be laughing my ass off. Then I'd take the criticism and improve my work. I prefer honest and direct people like Linus a thousand times over the typical "boss" that I know that hates me, but just looks at me with a look of hate, and probably talks shit about me with others. I'd be glad to work for/with him
+Sebastián Aguilera It's ok if someone criticize in terms: "Ok, this is bad because of that and that and it you could fix it like this". But can criticism be: "What's this shit?". And that's what Linus does.
+Sebastián Aguilera It's ok if someone criticize in terms: "Ok, this is bad because of that and that and it you could fix it like this". But can criticism be: "What's this shit?". And that's what Linus does.
Why not working with someone who is both kind and honest instead of choosing just one? Your comparison is flawed. I would like to choose someone who does not shit talk to me when criticizing my work. It is simply an indication of immature character that will fail over time.
+Tarik Guney you hit the nail on the head
I know I'm a bit late to the party on responding, since you wrote your comment 3 years ago Sebastián, but I have a different view of management. I have been a manager and I have been managed, and I have seen how people view their relationship with their managers and I have seen how their managers view their relationships with this staff. I find it funny that people assume that their boss must hate them, when I find that many bosses are actually concerned for their welfare, growth, and would be eager to see them successful.
Case in point: I worked with a younger guy, who was about 23 years old. The average employee in the role that he was in was about 35-45, so already he's the baby in the group and you would assume that everyone would lack respect for him. Everyone generally liked him, but felt that he was a bit too nervous. His boss, that he assumed hated him, actually looked at him more as a son (he's about the same age as his son), and tried to get him to realize that when he had to write him up for things it was purely administrative. (He's a truck driver and when you hit something, it comes with consequences, even if you just tear a fender off on a large rock.)
Eventually the kid had too many scuffs and he had to be let go. I talked to our boss after it happened and he felt sad about having to do it, because he liked the kid and wanted him to do well. He wished he was able to have had a better impact with the conversations that preceded his firing, so that he'd still be around.
The short TLDR version: Your boss doesn't always hate you, if they're not berating you. Sometimes they want the best for you, but they just don't say it.
find people you like working with, that's a great point too.
I personally think linus is half right on the respect front. So here is my humble opinion in the vast sea of opinions in the internet: A baseline of respect should be given in the sense of simply being polite to each other. BUT more respect should be earned. Like starting at zero and either going up or down, depending on how well people work together.
That baseline is lost the moment you do something very stupid. Stupidity doesn't grant you kindness. And maybe, just maybe, that bad feeling the rudeness invokes in you will prevent you from doing such stupid things in the future. If you respond to stupidity with kindness, you can be sure they'll do it next time as well.
@@SoundboundOfficial thats what i have said. "Like starting at zero and either going up or down, depending on how well people work together." this obviously counts for every behavior.
also people can still make up for stupid actions and earn back some or all of their trust that way.
If you want an example, just look at the history of no mans sky.
Someone who screams at people on the street isn't deserving of respect as they haven't earned it, druggies, criminals and crazy people are everywhere.
'Respect should be given in the sense of simply being polite to each other' - > You dealing with a neighborhood with drug cartels and criminals, being polite isn't going to help you.
Being polite to others is something that earns you respect, but those who aren't polite aren't deserving of respect.
@@SoundboundOfficial Humiliating somebody has nothing to do with respect. You either give respect or you don't.
Showing disrespect on the other hand is Ego.
@@astrahcat1212 Well, yes. It's what OP said in his comment. You think OP would respect to criminals or crackheads? I don't think so.
I’ve worked with people who thought themselves to be the genius amongst baboons. It’s a pain in the ass working with those individuals. Especially when their biases impede progress.
Progress how?
I've worked with an asshole who thought that way about everyone, and their way of doing things were never up to his standards - turns out though he really was the genius, and everyone else me included had baboon intellect. So should he have allowed me to do my job terribly when he could do it better than me in every way and I was merely an inconvenience? Because, I would've impeded progress.
I'm only asking because I'm curious, how do you know for sure that you are in fact not the problem and it's the other guy?
My guess is that the proof is always going to be in the pudding.
@@zion6680Isn't this a different issue though? The guy's questions was chiefly about whether it is acceptable to insult. I think it's okay for someone far more competent to do what they want and not spend time one working well with people who's work is worse. I still think that more competent people shouldn't insult others. Avoiding insults is not something that impedes your own work.
Linus said here that respect has to be earned but I'd say even people who haven't deserved your respect should not be insulted.
@RaniaIsAwesome Well, I'd say insulting people who intentionally harm other people is fine, although maybe that's what you meant.
I think in the discussions here are two factors mixed together: moral and efficiency.
Let’s ignore the moral and only focus on efficiency. Does Linus actually want to collab with people even if they are stupid? If so, he should respect, teach them and help them improve. If not, he should insult them and kick them out. I can tell that Linus actually dont like to work with people
except in this specific case the guy is actually a genius
The more I find about this guy, the more I like him. Such a refreshing sight in this overly political correct and social justice warrior bullied culture we inhibit.
+Turnipkin
I agree, I do think he has Aspergers though. Maybe not, but I believe so personally.
Either way he's what some people would call an Asshole, and I honestly like him for it.
+Turnipkin i would rather be insulted 10 times by a guy with his experience that falsely praised by a guy that knows nothing and being fired after that because i made a mistake or did something not "politically-correct" whatever that means.
I agree that things get way to 'pc'. But make sure to actually get the technicals here. Linus IS a hot head. He gets away with it because he's smart and in the father of Linux.. but he does ramp up to fast for what is otherwise a professional environment.
+Jerónimo Barraco Mármol I would be positively honored to be insulted by torvalds! it would be the high point of my year!
also, like the proverb says "better to be slapped with the truth than kissed with a lie"
I think there is a base "amount" of respect that ever one have "from me " but it will increase of decrease very fast based on there actions
Totally my point of view!
this!
So u will kik them out of your family's bank 😂
Yup. If someone is a cunt to other people I will respect them significantly less
There are plenty of programmers who have 0 intuition and meanwhile IT is a field centered on problem solving so you will honestly ask "how the hell did this guy get this far?"
Yep. But privately, not on a public forum, and failing that hopefully with less dehumanizing language.
@@bishop8000 "dehumanizing langauge"
Guys I spotted the gender studies major
@@thomasjefferson4195 There’s blunt “Listen, man, you’re not yet a strong enough coder in C to be contributing to the kernel.” vs “Your mother should have aborted you.” His abrasiveness is more than offset by his enormous contributions to Linux.
IT is not Computer Science. These are different fields with maybe 5% overlap, if that.
If respect should be earned, then does that mean you treat people with disdain until they show value as per your personal criteria? That sounds like arrogance.
That's correct. But as he said, he grew up in a largely dysfunctional family, which probably made him see things from that perspective instead of accepting people as deserving common courtesy even when they make mistakes or aren't as accomplished as he is in his field.
if you give someone a reason to treat you with disdain, then you shall by all means, gets a exponentional amount of "disdain", respect is earned, dis-respect is also earned, you can not expect respect when you ram through someones front door sit there on their sofa demanding money and start demanding tea and respect.
@notepicon2215 I agree, but I understood that the default state is that no one has his respect initially, and people have work to show they deserve his respect. That is the arrogance I am talking about. Personally, if that is the case, I wouldn't associate with anyone like that, no matter how smart they are.
@@ahmedfarooqui6896 WELL you also have to understand that billions if not trillions of devices worldwide run linux, if some one trying to make a name for them self decides "today im gonna contribute to linux kernel and show it off to my friends" and that code is buggy, degrades performance or decreases scalability who will be blamed for it the poster? yes but linus as well for allowing it.
and i understand that he can simply just
tell them politely that there code is garbage, but imagine linus getting millions of such mails. obv any sane person would go nuts!
I feel, it's not about "giving respect", it's more about not being a bully and treating other humans with basic decency. Are these developers he is working with malicious and intending to make mistakes? He can assert dominance, show anger, and put people in line WITHOUT the personal insults such as suggesting they were too stupid to find a tit to suck on as a kid.
malicious intent? to be an evidently stupid adult and attempting to contribute to a project knowing you're not able to, is malicious intent
Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
If banter is bullying to you then you're probably too soft to be programming kernels in the first place.
Tax Man lol what he was saying wasn't banter though
@@Jp-ue8xz you are a moron who should go back to studying basic english, as you clearly do not know the definition of "malicious" or "intent".
To begin with "intent" already means "intentions" and I highly doubt these people are coming here with the intention of being "an evidently stupid adult" and malicious intent involves having the intent to do harm - they might have bad ideas, but bad ideas aren't malicious intent, as we know from the phrase "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
Respect should be earned.. but you don't dish out disrespect like halloween candy 😅
Now go cry mommy
Quit being such a wimp.
why not ?
@@martinenn because other people see that.
he does not. I ve seen Linus going very long in mail threads to help people asking for clarifications even if really not experts...
when he FLAMES someone i quite always saw this to be really deserved...
0:43 a Man that doesnt stand his word.
Respect should be earned is indeed reflective of the environment I grew up in as well, and I drew the shortest straw in that as a child, I was never respected.
So I got to think about this topic a lot, and the answer I found for myself was to have a sort of base-level of respect, that everyone I do not know gets from me, those I don't like go below that level, those I really don't like sink to the lowest levels, those I do like get a bit above that base-level, those I "truly" do respect are even higher up.
However, one of the things I've found influence respect a lot is politeness, it is easier to earn respect by being polite than by being abrasive, and similarly, it's easy to lose respect by being abrasive, but not by being polite (unless you are respected for your abrasiveness, which as far as I know is completely unheard of)
I consciously avoid blatantly insulting people, unless I detest them, and I want them to detest me right back. Because I have found that if I want to be heard, words mixed with insults will fly right through one ear and out the other. Words mixed with positive feedback (e.g. on the things I actually do like about whatever the topic is), will be heard. So while I was abrasive once as well, I am not anymore. It's not about respect, it's about self-respect for me, and for me it disrespects my own person to throw insults at individual people unless I really just want to see them burn from the bottom of my heart.
Great comment!
Cestarian Inhabitant Respect should be earned.
You have an 'Innocent until proven guilty' attitude towards people you meet for the first time. That's a good way to be.
However Linus has to respond to people he might never have met and only know of them from what they have written, many of which have proven undeserving of respect, just by their input.
When Linus says "I don't know how he is alive when he obviously doesn't have the intelligence to find his mothers teat as a baby." It may be abrasive and not 'politically correct', yet accurate. He likes to call a spade a spade. It's not personal, but rather an analogy of how he sees someones understanding of a subject.
It's a lot like being a manager sorting through job applications, you have to make quick decisions based not on the person, but rather what they have presented to you in their application.
Anton Cordell Yup, that's right, but the difference is that I don't judge people by what they say as easily as I judge them by what they do. Writing a bit of bad code; what's the big deal? Doesn't make it a stupid person, just means he didn't do it well enough. Everyone can make mistakes, it happens to the best of us. He disrespects everyone until they have proven worthy of respect, it's a very negative way of life, and mentally unhealthy (I can't imagine this attitude makes him happy...)
But as the lead Linux kernel maintainer and developer, I think his attitude might actually be a necessary evil. The kernel needs to be the most solid part of any Linux system, as the guy who makes sure it stays that way, being spiteful towards programmers that send him dubious or imperfect code is probably the right thing to do in the long run. Without this attitude the kernel would be a lot more messy and unstable than it is right now, with a lot more of broken or incomplete features.
@@cestarianinhabitant5898 The thing is, when you submit patches to the Linux kernel, you ought to know the rules, especially the ones that provoke his rants. So if you break them, don't be surprised if Linus rips you a new one.
I see respect as a resource. I give everyone a bit of it for free when we first meet. Like a credit. And then they can either make more from it, or they can squander it. So yeah, great respect is mostly earned. A little respect is what we deserve by default. And no respect is the result of wasting it with one's words and actions.
Imagine if Linus had played Mr. Nice Sensitivity guy with every idiot that tried to insert broken/stupid code into the kernel. We wouldn't have a working linux kernel today, that's for damned sure.
Kids today need to toughen up and drop this social warrior nonsense.
+Stephen Glasskeys "Imagine if Linus had played Mr. Nice Sensitivity guy with every idiot that tried to insert broken/stupid code into the kernel." Not all proposed changes are stupid or broken code, but just differ in design or philosophy or goal from Linus's vision.
Like it or hate it, the Linux kernel is Linus's. And in the spirit of what Linus was saying one gets to chose people they like to work with, so If one don't like who he is working with, then he should go work on his own.
+Keith Reynolds Agreed. *Everybody* knows Linus doesn't have a tolerance for nonsense, yet some continue to act surprised and shocked when he demonstrates his lack of tolerance for nonsense.
+Stephen Glasskeys Everyone has the potential to one day contribute effectively, but if when they try to contribute they're berated for making a small mistake, do you really think they are going to even attempt to make another contribution?
+John Doe If all they see is 'being berated' instead of a team effort then it usually means they're too egocentric to see past the end of their own noses. The world needs more Linus Torvalds to flush out the pansies-asses who contribute nothing but waste valuable time on touchy-feely bullshit. Don't like the heat? Get out of the kitchen.
John Doe "Everyone has the potential to one day contribute...." sure, but take that to an extreme, and youll see that it is ineffective because it take way too much time to audit every ones code. But given enough time, a thousand monkys could randomly type out the entire linux kernel code.
good to see the man in the flesh! Salute, Linus, and I'm so glad to see we're on the same page in this topic!
I don't think anyone will read this but for the record linus has changed his mind about this and admitted his abrasive behavior was problematic
And then after taking a short break continued to be about as abrasive as before. That too is old news.
Then again the problematic part only seems to come out when some manage to piss him off by doing things that waste other people's time. I wonder how many people would actually even care if the clickbaity tech media didn't try to make a quick buck using this.
To me it seems that people are conflating separate issues here and would need to be way more specific about what exactly they find problematic. Is it a problem that he gets pissed off or how he expresses that? Or do people have a problem with the meritocracy within the project?
One way for people to avoid situations where they piss him off would be to think their ideas through better and possibly discussing them with Linus' "lieutenants" before taking those ideas to Linus himself. In other words just the normal process of vetting ones ideas before presenting the to the "boss" of the organization. Then again I assume that people normally have the common sense to do that and the incidents where Linus gets pissed off at having his time wasted are just the exception.
But yes, I do understand that the way people react to someone messing up can have a chilling effect on the motivation and productivity of others. Then again it seems likely to me that this issue of poorly given feedback which is very common in all kinds of projects and work life in general is getting so much attention in this case simply due to how high profile a project the Linux kernel is and how the media wants to benefit from any incident.
"changed his mind" lol he got pressured by his woke bosses to tip toe around the babies. I saw a comment from the lady involved in that brouhaha. It was obvious she didn't care about the project's present nor its future: she was just being destructive for destructiveness sake, like most sjws. I'm so glad Linus survived that effing bs.
Sadly he also let in PC culture into Linux.
Respect is earned.
@@Rogueixpresents there's a difference between respecting someone and having decency.
There is a difference between having respect for someone and communicating with others in a respectful way. You can dislike someone and still be civil when speaking to them. You do not have to do so. You have the option to be rude or offensive. However this expression of your character can be considered a serious flaw of character. A flaw serious enough that others may be justifiably rude in response. This leads to a less civil society as interactions devolve into insults and arguments.
Big deal, get over it.
You must be respectful in your conversation with other people to achieve expected result from them, I don't like the things Linus says because he sounds very childish when he insults someone or says something like "this is the best because I like it". I mean, you have the right to dislike something or someone but to discuss it you have to have good argument and not personal preference and insults. If you have to work with someone that treats you like shit just leave that place asap
How do you politely say "F*** off and don't waste my valuable time"? Every second some dumbass who had not spend a single day on the kernel, thinks he has something valuable to add. That he has an opinion. But he does not realize the whole problem scope nor context as Linus does. 80% of people in general are dumb. And you can't politely talk to every one of them. So you should just cut it short. And the shortest way is to add some rudeness.
Other thing i strongly believe in... polite soft-talk leads to relaxed and lazy development. Instead more agressive and stright language keeps the fire burning which leads to more agressive competition, drive for respect, pure innovation.
That said, i totally support Linus attitude.
Arguments are good in general because you test the strength and stability of your ideas.
@@Oswee actually 95% are pathetic if you use iq as a benchmark and if you also use personality tests like big 5,its much worse. Also I totally agree with you about telling others to piss off when they say things that make no sense and waste everyone's time. Again it just boils down to whether you want to be goal directed and increase your productivity or waste time and live in a delusion like most of the fools in this world.
I differentiate between the notions of "respect" and what I would call simple decency. Deep respect or admiration or belief in someone's work/abilities/ethic is indeed something that is earned. It takes time and special circumstances.
Decency is a whole different matter. By all means tear their logic to pieces if something is wrong, but no need to be an overbearing asshole. Say something along the lines of "Your solution does not work for X reasons or Y reasons. Or, this is suboptimal." It really is possible to be honest, constructive, and professional. It's all about critique of LOGIC, not saying they should have been aborted which is pretty deplorable to say in any context. Even if Linus is an ass at times, I'm glad he's here.
To me that isn't really about being politically correct. It's simply common sense. If you are honest yet don't go out of your way to be vicious to someone, they will likely work with you quite well. Obviously, people are not perfectly rational robots at all times, even people with a high level of composure. However, when things do become tense, if people see that you are honest but generally well-meaning 90% of the time, the professional or even personal relationship/friendship/whatever is still very salvageable. You have not lost someone who could end up being a major plus to your project/cause.
This is not to say that people should be on the other end of the spectrum either. There are people out there who freak out if someone even disagrees with them.
Yeah I can see straight thru the guy, he is full of shit. You don't start meeting people and making friends by being disrespectful or indecent
Well, this isn't about making friends, but about creating a product (an operating system kernel).
It makes all sense in the world to be rude to people who have been told again and again that their code isn't up to the required standards, and yet they keep trying to force the admins to get the code merged.
Javi Lavandeira
I said nothing about "friends" whatsoever. If you read my comment carefully you would understand that. What I'm referring to is basic professionalism.
Oh, but you *were* talking about making friends, and I see that you've now edited your message to say something else.
When did the substance of a message become less important than the words used to convey it? I think you people are becoming way oversensitive and too offended at big, scary words. You can take your "basic professionalism", your euphemisms and your political correctness and stick them all deep inside your ass, where they belong. :-)
I'm on Linus' side here. When you have a bad developer submitting crappy code and getting rejected again and again, who keeps trying other channels after being told to stop being annoying, at some point you have to stop being subtle and tell the guy to go the fuck away, which is exactly what happened here.
The last edit I made was well before your comment. Your reading comprehension is pitiful.
Yeah I always felt this way about teachers. We were always expected to show them respect, but I only respected the ones who deserved it because there were alot of dickheads who let their position of authority get to their heads and they made me either hate school or hate whatever particular subject they were teaching because they weren't helping me learn the material
Would you respect Linus Torwalds under the same precept then? because that's what he's doing here.
@@einarabelc5 Well, he's not a teacher and I never had him as one. But if I ever have him as a professor one day, then I would definitely hold him under the same precept
this applies across everything : )
@@MegaVRAK No, there are always exceptions to every rule.
Take the creators of reese for example. Say what you will, but they will automatically always have my eternal respect and gratitude.
I feel this way towards my family. They're expecting me to respect them when they're all unreasonable sons of bitches with short tempers. As i'm used to it, I often prefer to either laugh it off or ignore it, but motherfucker sometimes I just have enough of them because of how annoying they are. They expect me to think highly of them when even in the most minor of things, they would complain or mock me. Especially my mother and grandmother. I could still somewhat understand my mother's unreasonable-ness because she's been taking care of me for so long, but gosh my grandma is on a whole different level.
It's like it runs on the fucking family line. It's a good thing i'm different from then and actually knows what PATIENCE means. Sorry about the curses here, i'm just genuinely pissed off right now as i've had enough of it once again for like the millionth time.
A bit tiring how this keeps coming up. I think it is grossly unfair to Linus. A lot of this is as he says hyperbole and joke like. And these comments are in relation to technology discussion. I've never heard that Linus is a bully in a personal conversation. It is just words, he doesn't screw people over. A lot of sweet talking people who are backstabbers and ruining peoples lives in various ways. I never heard any story about Linus actually doing something mean to someone, the way Steve Balmer, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates etc have done.
And honestly it does annoy me slightly that American's keep grinding on about this. One talks about being so inclusive, but yet American's act as if American sense of politeness, friendliness and proper behavior is universal. I had an American colleague who kept getting offended about everything. It was quite tiring for everybody trying to explain to him all the time that something was not intended as an insult and was completely neutral.
I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all. Just like people can be perfectly friendly and nice while swearing a lot. I'd say content and tone is far more important to show respect and friendliness. When an American customer representative drones away to me with a robot voice about how much his company values me as a customer and what a pleasure it was to serve me, I just find it really offensive because his voice clearly indicates that what he is saying isn't true.
I am not Finnish myself but being a fellow Nordic I'd say Linus likely thinks the most offensive thing is being fake and dishonest.
"you are so stupid that I can't believe you found a tit to suck on" - makes me wonder how he ended up being a programmer not a stand-up comedian, this is prime, golden
(oh and by the way, I would not be surprised if you didn't pick up on the sarcasm there, so yeah, it was sarcasm)
@@kshinji that actually is very funny lol. Find a sense of humor.
"I think Americans are far too concerned with superficial friendliness and politeness. Even when people are angry with you and are basically telling you to fuck of they will still continue to use "thank you" and "please" which becomes completely bizarre when their voice is telling you they are not being friendly at all."
Bro, you fucking said it.
These are not Americans, these are pansies you are talking about.
I really hate how the insult is taken with literally no context as to what warranted it. The guy getting insulted could've been a dumb fuck but we will never know (in this video at least)
What a loveable penguin man
Thats what we call a genius
@@depression_isnt_real he is so Nice look at him as a big baby
It's kind of going in extremes with words: you don't give out respect left and right, but there are just simple grounds where you don't need to earn it to be heard either. It's supposed to be in the middle.
Teaching someone HOW and WHAT to improve is more effective than just insulting them or just respecting them.
You can't teach someone that isn't willing to learn!
and when your more concerned about your "feelings" than the work maybe you should just go home to mommy and not play with the grown ups!
@@JonnyTBooker Most people who describe themselves as “abrasive” or just take pride in being a jerk as if it’s a replacement for having a personality don’t try, or even care if the person is willing to learn. Especially in elitist tech spaces. Also, work exists to serve humanity, part of which is our feelings, not the other way around.
“Respect should be earned” in a vacuum is completely reasonable thing to say, but, if you look at the context of who Linus was disrespecting and why, you start to see the issue. He’s not just just saying “respect should be earned,” he’s saying “respect should be earned, and these people didn’t deserve my respect because I think they’re less intelligent than me.” Anyone involved in tech knows Linus isn’t the only person who thinks this way, and I think it’s one of the reasons so many people are put off by tech culture
Oh no, they expect intelligence in a tech project, how dare they? We just wanna draw dinosaurs, and be respected doing it too!
@@SoundboundOfficial They expect THEIR level of intelligence, it's a different thing and you don't have to have it because even a normal person could contribute to the project otherwise you're arrogant.
@@SoundboundOfficial There is a difference between great respect and basic respect. To not be able to follow simple courtesy makes you out to be an animal with no dignity rather than an intelligent member of the human species.
@@salter1630 most humans are less then animals, what are you on about?
I think the problem here isn't so much about respect, but about civility, no matter how bad an employee is, insulting them, especially on a public mailing list is just sorta unprofessional.
Having said that of course, it is hard to tell the context of the insult, based simply on the words, it depends somewhat on the relationship between the employer and the employee, and how seriously and belligerently the insult was meant
Stop typing stupid shit it is things like this that fck over employees gullible dumb fuck.
Skull Fucker And you wonder why you keep getting fired.
Fuck PC.
@zer0flag
Even if they weren't paid, even if you work at a charity, basic standards of civility and professionalism still apply.
@@Xalgucennia there is a difference between raising money for children with leukemia and contributing to nogasm on github.
I also 100% agree with Linus, we need more honesty rather than back slapping which IMHO is wasting energy, people should be less easily offended and more focused on the matter and what is right or wrong rather then their feelings being hurt. I wish there were more people like Linus rather than politically correct assholes that will get us nowhere in terms of progress.
Ali Can Metan the Y is often very time consuming in the long run
***** yes, you shouldn't ever insult someone over dissatisfaction, but it doesn't make the Ys any less cumbersome to formulate
***** I don't know the context in the dispute. But I assume he (Linus) wasn't taking about UI.
Anyhow, there always are people truly incapable of straightening their conduct to if so only soothe your sensitive intermediates. Torvalds, he the lance, the offender, stern. Some even rattle my earthcaressed scaffolds, so it bothers me, but in truth not.
The only constructive part about "Your code is not good enough to be acceptable as a patch because of X. Fix it" is the "X".
In your "Your code sucks" example, you neglect to include X. Obviously, it is not constructive.
(That's not to say that I would _personally_ go about it the way Linus does.)
Natural selection...
Saying "No, this code is bad." is much easier and more respectful than "You are too stupid to even stay alive and I don't know how your mother gave birth to you....". Respect has two sides: personal and professional. If he was truly a technical and pragmatic person, then he would have chosen the first one. Just because, someone is bad at a skill does not give anyone to make disrespectful remarks about their personality. They are two different things. "Your code is bad" is a comment on someone's skill, which can be acceptable. But saying "You are stupid" is simply an attack on his/her personality for which no one has right to do so. Personal respect is earned through birth. It is the respect that keeps us all alive. Being a kind person does not mean you are trying to be politically correct, it means you are being a nice person. If there are nicer ways to tell something, then saying it offensively instead is nothing but satisfying your own ego and showing people how awesome you are. Also, just because someone is good at something, it does not mean they will be good at everything even if they are your hero in a particular area. He cries out loud about his lack of skills in human relationships, and people think he is just being cool. Nope. He simply confuses the hypocrisy behind being politically correct with being a genuinely nice person.
And yes, he throws an InvalidArgumentException @ 3:40.
This is exactly my opinion! I know people who point out bad code and are welcoming, because they know this is how the community will grow. Being rude is a choice, you wrote the kernel, great, but you weren't born coding like you do today either, you gradually improved. Slapping someone with a personal comment over bad code will take away their will to be better more often than otherwise.
Yes but its boring and dead
i use linux and i wouldn't have it any other way. I would much prefer Linus with his "you should've been aborted" emails. If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't have linux today. Leave him alone and let him do whatever he wants. It's his creation, people with their politeness will ruin it like they ruined everything else.
No person deserves respect before it's earned period. You are born into this life with a promise that you will die. There is nothing to respect. If i precieve you as an idiot i will tell that you're an idiot not mask it with superficial words for your fragile mind to process in a positive light. Grow up.
There is a difference between respect and dignity. No one should be denied dignity without real consideration for the reason that dignity is denied.
Yes. You can tell someone they aren't up to the task without the insults.
It’s the male merit vs female communitarian point of views
@@ChristopherSalisburySalz THIS.
@@RR-et6zp what
Damn it..... my faith in humanity felt down when he said the truth.....and NONE applauded. Or, truth hurts and none likes the truth.
I too believe that respect should be earned BUT there is something called 'mutual respect' which kinda keeps our species from killing each other outright! And I did say 'kinda' because that statement isn't clear cut by any means...
And we all know that, deep down, if we threw out the concept of mutual respect, this planet would tear itself apart in weeks!
Sometimes, you just have to grin and bear People... Otherwise you just create relentless conflict...
Respect should be earned but the default stance towards other people should preferably be good enough so you don't insult them immediately. (Just a general thought)
lol it's because he's defending the position of a boss to be a brash prick, and all of them are employees, not bosses...
Although frankly he's not wrong about earning respect
nobody really cares
It's not the truth, it's just his opinion.
You don't have to respect anyone but you definitely don't disrespect people either. Respect must be earned and never handed out.
It's either respect or disrespect
@@Artaxerxes. There can be a middle ground, it's not binary.
@@adisharr how?
@@filipelimartins Have a neutral opinion? How can you see someone walking down the street and respect them or disrespect them w/o knowing them at all? You can also respect someone for being a hard worker but not respect them in other areas.
@@adisharr if you leave someone alone you are respecting him
Linus is my fucking hero.
#linusthuglife
#btfo
His response is in a way like Finland in a nutshell. Say what you think and no more. If someone is offended, too bad. I hope to see a statue of him someday in Helsinki.
sz1234sz
i should move to finland.
Long dark winters and crappy weather, dont do it :D If that is not a problem, welcome.
sz1234sz
is finland right for me? I like cold, grey weather, being left alone, and working in a tech or engineering sector.
Anyone giving discretionary time to an open source project has earned some respect already.
A modicum, perhaps, but some come to open source projects with perverse ulterior motives. And if those are discovered, that modicum should go out the window.
That's like saying when a stranger comes walking up to a group of friends playing football and starts to play the ball should be respected. I mean. No. The stranger doesn't know them, he doesn't own the ball, he doesn't know which team he should be playing in. You can argue that he's "contributing" to the game by playing football but everyone else are right to say "who the fuck is this guy and who does he think he is?"
Now if the stranger comes prepared, maybe with a ball of his own and some gear and asks the group if he can join them to play for a bit then that's a whole different kind of thing.
@@IrregularPineapples Your analogy makes no sense. The people he bashes don't just come out nowhere and start working on this project like toddlers.
@@1994mrmysteryman ...yes they do, why be in the mailing list otherwise?
Not really, especially on large well established projects as a some people join these just for the clout of being on a big project they can plonk on their CV.
Even on smaller projects you get a lot of people joining just for the power rush, I used to contribute to a well established OSS game and met plenty of coders that gave no care to how the game played or what the community wanted, and just pushed changes based on their own whims.
So no, submitting code contributions should not automatically earn you respect
Agreed, in the real world we don't mean crap till we prove it.
cheers bro, in 2021
What a fantastic answer to an interesting question.
"People are different. Some people take offence. And some people give offence. And, we all have to live together."
When working on a project as a project leader, and you find someone incompetent, there are couple ways to proceed.
1. Tell them that this isn't going well for them and that their skills are not good enough for the job.
2. Tell them that they are so incompetent that they should have been aborted and saying your surprised that they are still alive, because of their stupidity.
Notice how the first response doesn't attack the project team member as a person. It is just honest feedback of their work. The other on the other hand attacks the person as a whole. "Nothing is good in them, they would be better off dead."
It is just being a decent person really.
Respect is mutual. I respect honest feedback for my work, I actually need to get some critical feedback in order to better my skills. But if I would get this kind of feedback from a boss like Linus, I would feel absolutely terrible. I would lose my confidence for working, start lacking self esteem and of course perform even worse.
I would absolutely hate working for Linus with that attitude. I've had the worst bosses with that attitude. Feedback needs to be honest for sure, but not insulting.
"Oh yeah this isn't working out, you're fired :)"
No one cares what you think soyboi.
Also, if Linus were to be giving you that kind of feedback, you think you'd still be working there? No, you idiot. You don't get that kind of feedback and get to keep your job. But I guess we can just add that to the pile of evidence we have that you're nothing more than a brain dead fool.
@@shawnpitman876 I don't know whether this is a bad joke. How are you insulting just now? Please don't be a asshole.
Is just good manners. You being the boss doesn't allow you to forget how a conversation takes place between two adults.
When you get too close of someone that level, most of the people are going to get burned. He surely will remember his mistake, wether some "respectful" feedback will help him to keep doing mistakes.
Like Software, people change too. Please don't judge a man now because of something he said years ago. The fact that Linus changed his attitude years after (in Kernel mailing list) makes me respect him even more.
Marry him.
@@danilodistefanis5990 he's taken!
Hi, have you seen the 6.0 related mailings? They're comedy gold.
@@danilodistefanis5990 marry your right hand, oh wait its busy trying to jack me off but I keep slapping it away. begone, harlot!
The more I find about this guy, the more I like him. Such a refreshing sight in this overly political correct culture we inhibit.
+Johnnie Bassdrum What does bullying someone have to do with political correctness?
+John Doe i wouldn't go as far by saying he 'bullied' some people. He just expressed his opinions in a derogatory way. That is simply not a politically correct thing to do.
Johnnie Bassdrum Telling people he wishes they would have been aborted isn't bullying?
John Doe Not in my book. Bullying is like repeatedly intimidating someone. this is just offending. Just words.
Johnnie Bassdrum I don't see how publicly humiliating someone in front of their peers isn't bullying.
People not having earned our respect in our own eyes is not the bar we should set for justifying our own disrespect towards them. That doesn't mean you owe them the respect of entertaining their ideas or opinions. It just doesn't justify disrespecting them due to differing ideas or opinions. This is the thought pattern that is responsible for everything wrong with society.
Treat everyone with respect until they prove they don’t deserve it. Simple
Baseline yes but beyond that it's a function of competence and contribution. He maybe takes it too far but that's because his opposite does so more.
It's often a bad model in a society of single-interactions. And in a reality where people change.
Try playing league of legends friend
@@n_x1891 That game selects for antisocial bullies. That LoL is contaminated by jerks doesn't project out to the population.
@@Avenus112 ah yes most popular game on the world only antisocial bully selection
He couldn't find the courage to take responsibility and promise to keep his anger. His explanation is BS. Everyone respected him hi whole life, even before he became famous. He is just a bully.
People looking at this in the bold future of 2022 (at least) should know that since this Linus publicy apologised for previous 'unprofessional' conduct and 'inability to communicate' and, from what I can see, seems to have taken a more conciliatory stance than what he shows here
Yes, because of the mediatic pressure, the rampant cancel culture/censorship and defamation of everyone who doesn't conform to "political correctness" and "woke ideals" in the West
so if you meet someone new the baseline is being disrespectful unless they`ll earn your respect? man this dude did a lot for the world of software engineering but let's not study his moral compass.
That what sickens me. People like Linus and in this comment section don't seem to realize that respect works both ways. You can't just expect everyone to respect you from the get go without respecting anybody because you are special and your respect needs to be earned.
Or rather, you can expect it, but that's not good or healthy behavior. At all.
Linus Torvalds, technically a brilliant guy. That's all. No more no less than that.
It's hilarious when he tries to justify his attitude due to his family. Man you have a whole life to improve as a human being.
you must be a Rust programmer
Improve, but in the eyes of whom?
Cultures are different.
"Man you have a whole life to improve as a human being." why? To be accepted by you or people like you? I am sure that he is PRETTY happy the way he is and even better, he won't change the way he is to be liked by random people because he truly gives ZERO fucks. Its just a dude doing his thing, making the world a better place. He, being a douche, is doing more that can be said of 99.9999% of the population.
I agree respect should be earned, but those who haven't earned it should at least be treated neutrally and not actively insulted.
He does do that. He starts insulting people when they have ideas he heavily disagrees with.
@@krunkle5136 that’s not a cause for disrespecting someone though. That sort of thinking will land you in a *HEAP* of trouble in the real world. It’s important to remember that not everyone is Linus Torvalds.
Respect should be earned.
I fucking love this guy! :D
Tyler Zambori awesome!
So respect for Linus means "I won't attack your persona with insults because I deem you knowledgeable enough" ? If he doesn't find someone on par with his knowledge and skill level, his solution is to give them feedback on how mad he is at them for being a human failure. Yep, that seems very efficient and productive... Or it's just that he gets a dopamine rush when he insults people since he does it with a passion.
Such insults are not totally personal. Usually he gave feedbacks because those works have to do with his project. For a huge open source project, it is good to keep some kind of people away in a straiforward way if you think their work is harmful to the project. Such damages are usually hard to reverse and gradually accumulate over time for such a big project. Maybe the fact he is mean is one of the reason linux is successful.
Hero.
The merger of social skills and programming skills is a tricky one
He can treat people however he wants, but treating people like shit hasn't ever been the solution. We should all know by know that being mean only brings resentment inside the people you are mean to. Trying to be appreciative and supportvie brings in them a feeling of "I have to do better for this guy appreciates what I do and I don't want to fail him."
@@KurtFrederiksen Extremely nice arguments. Calling somebody so stupid and incapable to feed himself.
I really don't see any arguments in this growl.
@@KurtFrederiksen You arguments are perfect as well. Will you cancel me now?
LMAO
Yes. Respect needs to be earned. Plus if I think you're being stupid I should be free to point it out.
Respect needs to be earned... right!... what about treating others with equal dignity?....
+Veeraj Shenoy How about not acting like a pussy.
Equality is a false god.
i used to have the mentality that respect should be earned but ive grown up since then. everyone deserves respect by default, but they can definitely lose it.
No, no one automatically deserves my respect
Yes. Being stupid is a good way to lose it.
Drug cartels, criminals, pimps, hoes, crackheads are not automatically deserving of respect. It takes time to earn respect.
Respect is earned.
The only thing people deserve no matter what is baseline civility, but beyond that a person doesn't by default deserve kind words especially if they're being a dick or being stupid.
I,can’t believe people are offended, such snowflakes. Personally I would love to work with him. Being rated like that motivates me to do better. He doesn’t say stuff without reason.
It seems to me that the people who are most adamant about being treated with kid gloves are the first ones to toss out words like nazi, facist, hater, racist, sexist....
It's as if they just learned the word without looking up the definition 🥲
yes
Interesting observation. Might be because they can't comprehend others so they have to put labels to simplify their understanding. And that same lack of comprehension doesn't allow them to see their own mistakes or take critics in a less personal way. Like in this video, Linus have insulted people maybe because they are doing a crap work or the release of the software is stressful, lots of moving pieces all the time, but those guys fail to see beyond the insult and want to be treated nicely for what? In my case I don't expect a congratulations when I do a good job, it is what I'm paid for, and if I get criticized I either try to improve or I have backup evidence that I did the best possible in a scenario. In an open source environment with no bosses they can say whatever they want, I think it is cooler because you probably get really grilled and learn more than in a censored environment like a regular company.
People don't have to earn enough respect not to be insulted, that is the default way of treating another human being.
You will be kicked out if you act this way at a BIG software or IT company (not talking about start-ups). Some employees struggle with depression or other mental health issues. Some are quite sensitive to insults and condescending looks. This really shouldn't need any justification so I'm not sure I writing any. If people are insulting you where you work, you should be reporting that to HR or wherever you can. There is a basic, minimum amount of respect that should be enforced at all work places: the right not to be insulted.
The reason Linus can get away with this is because he works in open-source and there is no HR department to enforce basic rules of respect. By acting this way, he alienates a whole set of people who cannot mentally deal with people who are toxic on a regular basis.
+BOT Opie "You will be kicked out if you act this way at a BIG software or IT company (not talking about start-ups)." Of course you will, big companies are ridden by the PC cancer. Not because they care about their employees but because they want to look good in front of investors, which has an impact on their share price which in turn has a knock on effect on executive's bonuses and share options. HR departments are there to protect companies bottom line not employees, anyone who believes that it's otherwise is either very gullible or very inexperienced.
Sure. But Linus insults people that fuck up patches for his kernel (or at least that what I can gather from the examples that are brought up). Pretty sure he knows when someone deserves an insult over a patch review, which would then mean that isn't his "default" way of treating other human beings but rather his "angry because you fucked up" way.
I think it`s a cultural issue. In northern/eastern part of Europe saying that you "fucked something up" is no big deal, and you have to prove that you have skills to earn respect in workplace. Of course no one is born great programmer/engineer/doctor/welder etc. but no one will say that you are doing great while you are... not doing great, you have to work hard to get yourself out of the noob status.
"i work with people from a lot of different cultures and the one thing that unites us is that we can make jokes about each other"..in other words you seem like a racist fukface...this is the way people who want to abuse others personally talk...it's all fun and games until it starts getting out of hand
It's the ability to dish out insults that should be earned not given. Torvalds is brilliant enough to get away with it. The sad part is he is influencing a platoon of programmers - most with a fraction of his skill - but made proud, by his influence, to be arrogant and rude. This fact may take it's toll on the morale of engineering workers worldwide - especially the morale of junior or inexperienced programmers. Torlvald's approach is unnecessary and, as he mentions, is possivly due to his family and cultural dynamics. A different approach is to say "I see you are having trouble. Please let me take you to find your mothers "tit"". One such exposure to her "tit", may very well fix the problem forever. Lashing out with abusive insults does nothing to help the programmer find the "tit". Another important point here is this: Sometimes when a person's work performance or competence is judged, they may be encountering serious problems in their lives and might otherwise perform better. I have a vague memory from Steven Covey's book, "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People". Covey describes a paradigm shift. A child is behaving wildly on a subway - angering the passengers. The paradigm shift comes when it is learned the child is on her way home from the hospital after witnessing the death of her mother. After the shift, the child's behavior no longer bothers the riders - In fact they may shed a tear.
Or we can stop coddling people and tell them to suck it up buttercup. Linus is not your life coach. Either work on the project or don't. Contribute something useful and you earn his respect. Screw up the project and/or try to submit bad code and you earn his ire. It's on you which side you want to see of him.
@@pharoah327 This is exactly the example of the first point raised by the OP. You who have less than a fraction of the ability of the brilliant yet act like they are the shit, just ready to spit out rules and the how the world works for other people like it's somehow your business.
The things is, getting on the good or bad side of Torvalds is going to be irrelevant and inapplicable for most of the developers out there as most people are just like you. The problem is that many well-meaning developers who will be productive in the very near future turning into yet another pile of garbage by getting on bad side of people like YOU. Having to bear through a lecture and snobbish from one incompetence to another, without anything useful to fruit from it as people like you are incapable and hostile, believing that the eccentricity of your behavior somehow will make you appear brilliant at what you do. So all the cons of having Torvalds next to you, with none of the pros.
@@Epoche000 yeah but see the problem is that I have the skills to back it up. This is not a self assessment. This is from the words of every employer I've had and feedback from users of my software. I've even had several jobs give me a raise without me having to ask (and no, not a cost of living raise, an actual raise). I have a high level of skill mainly because I actually paid attention and tried my hardest while learning this stuff. It's only after writing tens of thousands of lines of code that you can consider yourself to be good at this. People who think they can skate by, do the minumum, and get undeserved praise is annoying. You gotta earn that shit. You gotta try your hardest and learn from your mistakes. You have to earn respect. I think the problem is junior devs fresh out of college thinking they write code like senior devs and not wanting to hear criticism. You will write shit code for the first 10 years of learning. It's only after that that you can consider your code to be passable and decent. Then if you continue to try your hardest and keep learning, you will one day write actually good code. Programming is hard and I don't think many people appreciate the difficulty behind it.
Awesome respect should be earned
this is common sense
We need more people to think like Linus about this subject. If this pattern of coddling everyone continues humanity will cease to progress. You need criticism from others, it helps you build character.
Yeah there is too much political correctness in a lot of project and professional circles in the hi-tech industry.
I read some article a while back that Americans unlike Asians have a hard time taking criticism.
+thr0nic A lot of people think better when they are angry. Productive people tend to be.
+Nicholas Von Hieronymus "We need more people to think like Linus..." Right.. because writing a comment "What's this shit?" after a code commit is a constructive criticism... Sure.
Lazic B. I've said that about my own code. Then I figured out what was shitty about it. :)
Joshua Walker You forgot to mention highly successful and rich.
I think no one earns my respect. Now I can insult everyone without guilt
You always could...but remember you aren't exempt from consequences.
ADMIRATION should be earned. Respect is just a default social courtesy. It can be revoked if they are really undeserving of it, but basic respect is a given in social settings. Online I know it is a different world though and it's easy to say things you wouldnt say to someone's face, at least not in the same way. In that sense the internet is antisocial.
Respecting everyone indiscriminately is respecting nobody, if you give respect as a default social courtesy it stops having meaning, at least that's how I see it.
@@asgoritolinasgoritolino7708 I definitely don’t respect you, idiot.
Well giving respect and being courteous are two different things.. how hard it is to extend some fucking courtesy..
Wow, I loved his answer. I fully agree, respect is something you earn by being respectable and not demanding it without moving a needle to deserve it.
Political correctness is false correctness because it is politically motivated - it doesn't come from heart. It also shouldn't be confused with politeness. You can send someone very politely to hell.... True respect has to be earned and Torvalds is absolutely right about that.
Tyler Zambori
I don't know, I'd rather not keep my claptrap to myself. He's annoying.
+Gaurab Chatterjee Freedom of speech does not mean you can freely insulting others when you feel like it. There are many ways to express disapproval. Simply saying something like neutral "Your work is not up to standard", "Your codes are suitable for the project" etc.
Back in the day more of us liked a good roast even if we were on the receiving end and the roaster was someone like a mentor or that you respected.
I still do but sadly a lot of people take roasts to heart when they really shouldn't. From the right person and context, a roast just means, DO BETTER.
I think some of Gen-Z gets it again but many of the Millennials were raised thin skinned and fragile.
Of course, in most contexts, roasting someone is rude and possibly hurtful. But in the context of Linus talking about someone wanting to put a mess into his Linux Kernel a roast might be just the thing.
No no no. Respect is by default. Disrespect is the one that's earned.
I totally agree. Respect needs to be earned.
he is right
respect should be earned
Linus is based and red pilled I can tell by his shirt
Or maybe it just means he's a redshirt?
Respect should comes with birth, admiration should be earned. When people say the word 'respect' they mean admiration.
The problem is you really just can get away with saying stuff like that if you're the go to guy in that specific area. If you are the guy who is on top in that technology you can throw away all good manners and people will still accept it. However he might take the motivation away completely from this guys he's tearing down. He says to them that they aren't smart enough to code for his product and that can do harm to their self esteem. Better just telling them what was wrong about their work
I can imagine if code needs to be written at this level of importance (Linux), you cannot start teaching people. You need to filter away those who are not good enough. That alone takes up so much time already. Though you can filter them with honest words about their skills while still respecting them as human beings and being thankful for their efforts to help.
He is right the respect Should be earned
I'm with him on this one; in fact, I don't see how one could justify the opposite attitude. If someone hates me, I find it more decent if he tells me to go f*** myself openly instead of sugarcoating the poison or being so lukewarm as not having a clear opinion on anything. Of course, some people extend that too far and justify being unnecessarily rude, but extreme political correctness often makes any kind of constructive discussion impossible because someone will always be offended by something. Hell, some people will be offended if you're not completely enthusiastic about their bullshit, let alone hating it.
being rude and being politically incorrect are orthogonal concepts, they have nothing to do with each other directly, and may be indirectly correlated, yeah, but not because of nature of either
you definitely do not need to be an arrogant imbecile to tell someone you do not like their code, don't think they are good programmers or whatever.
I understand holding out on respect, but not being actively disrespectful.
"Respect should be earned. And without being earned, you don't get it."
WORDS. Words of wisdom.
Those insults sound like what my brother puts on forums and mailing lists.
I only respect this man more now
If your Code Sucks. You will be told to " #@$% Off " ..
So don't do Bad Code. Fix it.
I agree with him 100%
wow. great commentary from torvalds.
you see linus prioritises productivity over feelings
Then why why invest time in insulting other people for a newbie mistake? Isn't saying "no, that's wrong" enough and way more efficient than writing an essay on how stupid the person is?
@@superharryboy It definitely is. Not to mention that the feelings of a worker directly influence their ability to be productive. Most of the time this kind of attitude is just an excuse to be an asshole and seem tough in the process. Either that or the person simply doesn't know any better.
Great points made in the replies here already. I’ll just add, productivity exists to serve humanity and by extension our feelings. Not the other way around. Productivity is not the be all end all of existence.
I think the more appropriate word to use is "civility" or "decency." While respect may be earned, that is not justification for disrespect.
You can be brutally honest to someone without telling them you think they should be dead. That's abusive.
"Respect should be earned, Sweet, just like money"
I'M
HUNGRY
@@KingLich451 Can I take your order please?
Except respect is not a zero sum game.
OOOHHHHHH SNAP.Way to kick ass Linus. I'm officially a Linux guy now.