@@FatalFist Not sure about that. All these cars are back to the basics sport coupes. The point is to be basic. They all have LSD, RWD, and manual tranny.
@Damian Chiliński those are more expensive and higher spec cars than the S2000. Even so, the S2K is still the better driver's car. Even so, I agree with your first point. The mx5 and the brz are specifically designed to be retro and old school. And we should thank Mazda and Subaru for it.
@@CapFlipGaming Honda would be challenged to repeat this level of performance in today's world. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons the S2000 went away was because they couldn't make side air bags work (without perhaps unacceptable sacrifices). So, to make a modern version, they'd be saddled with requirements that did not exist back in the day. keeping weight down with the extra "baggage" would mean more lightweight materials leading to even higher cost. Not saying it couldn't be done, but whether it could be done at a price point that would make it viable for Honda in today's market is another story. Unfortunately, it seems that the resale price curve initially dipped enough for clowns to buy these cars and thrash them or slap on half baked mods. Now the re-sale prices are in a steep climb as it becomes more difficult to find one with a good pedigree. The author's suggestion of 30K is a bit optimistic in the Miata with the Club Sport package (which nets the limited slip, Brembo's, BBS wheels, etc_) Those seem to run closer to 33-35, which is a lot for a car that lacks badly in utility for many of us. But as noted, any of these three are a hoot to drive, and a far cry from the sterile EV's out there with automatic dog washers.
We should realize how lucky we are that it's now 20 years after the S2000 and we still have new BRZ/86 models. I'm not looking for a future dystopia society where we have nothing but 4 wheel drive electric cars
The worst irony is the fact that electric cars are no more environmentally friendly than gas cars, and potentially worse, and if we pushed for E85 or even E100 cars we'd be doing the environment more good. Also 100 corporations produce 70% of total global emissions
@@Aglai76 The way humans live in general is very environmentally wasteful. Electric cars is not the solution that will solve our environmental problems. It takes a lot of material and energy to power electric cars. The way to save our planet is to drastically change the way we live. We need to condense our cities where we wouldn't even need cars to get around.
@@Aglai76 these are all facts. to bring your point further, ICE has been efficient as ever they've just gained so much weight from luxuries. Imagine a new barebones car with a modern ICE drivetrain and relatively low weight. In theory it should have great fuel economy. Also, synthetic corn fuel is becoming a thing so traditional fuel isn't going anywhere. Couple with the fact the U.S. infrastructure isn't set for a full EV evolution across the whole of the country. Maybe only major cities equiped with recharge stations.
I bought the S2000, sight unseen, when it first came out. It was the closest thing to meth on wheels. Keeping this car in the sweet spot, between 5000 and 8500 rpm was loud and raucous. I like my brz better, though, with the fake engine noise . Am I the only person who likes the fake engine noise? It's like a beautiful women faking a organism. It still sounds real to me.
I'm starting to think these comparisons are just excuses to drive another S2000. : p I would be doing the same thing if I could. Great content as always.
My favorite RWD Japanese cars right now. So long as Zygrene is talking about and driving S2000s, all is okay with the world. Keep your S2000s if you can swing another daily folks--but don't get too crazy in keeping the miles slow (for what and whom). Drive it while it it is fresh and parts are relatively accessible. Now If I were going to buy a sub 50K RWD platform, it would be a tough choice between the new BRZ and ND.2. As I currently have a used NB which is a hoot to drive, ad Turo'ed a ND.2 for an extend period in California, I have a connection with the ND and may go with it If I didn't need the added practically from there BRZ. The build quality of the ND.2 is amazing. And double wishbone life is good. All great cars that should be celebrated; and, we need to go out there and buy them support these manufacturers. Who knows how long these light weight, RWD, Naturally Aspired cars they will be around. Live today folks.
Parts and aftermarket on s2000 has been expensive for years. Thanks to Covid all oem parts are even harder to get. Enjoy s2000 and drive it while you can. I tracked and raced down the mountain for years and move on. No regrets, it was same feeling with evo, enjoy it while you can.
If you are in the US, I am going to throw you a curveball/wildcard choice - Saturn Sky Redline. 260bhp 2l turbo ecotek (similar to the popular 2.4 ecotec that people swap into miatas), 290 with a simple chip from GM, push 320bhp quite easily with a stage1 kit. I've seen these listed as low as 7k in the last year. 10-12k for a low mileage one (and I mean under 20k miles low). Comes with an Aisen 5 speed manual (same one the polaris slingshot has actually), double wishbone at front, corvette style stressed member independent susp at back, torsen limited slip diff as standard on the redline. parts availability is good due to sharing a lot of components with other GM models, in spite of the retired badge. I would recommend the sky/solstice to anyone with used miata money who is finding miatas going crazy in value for even shitty examples - its more car for the money, Of course, I don't own one lol - I have a miata bought before prices went nuts. Test drove the sky redline recently and was very impressed, decided not to however because Im still too in love with my miata and dont need.... four cars.... three already too many... lol. But id recommend it to anyone wanting a cheap little roadster with surprisingly excellent performance. The Kappa platform (sky) is a bit heavier than the S2000, but the turbo more than compensates and the 5 speed/wide torque bands in the ecotek mean you can actually spend more time in power/torque sweet spot than an S2000 where you need to row the gears constantly to keep it in the sweet spot. Basically, like a 5 speed NB miata, but with about 2x the power and torque. The extra weight actually helps put the power down on the ground plus its about a 15-10 years newer design platform and engine than the NA and NB miata or even S2000 and will protect you better in a crash. If you are in Europe, esp UK - just get an S1 elise instead.
I own both, a supercharged s2000 and a supercharged mx5 ND. I love the MX5 in the twistys and on tight country roads. The s2000 is more fun on the track tho. But in the city and real life the mx5 pulls better off the line and is more fun on the B roads. I love both cars but the supercharged mx5 with Ohlins coilovers never fails to put a huge smile on my face
The fact that these cars are being compared to a decade+ older car just speaks to how good the s2000 is. Its just such a well balanced and fun car to drive. And imo looks d best too lol.
Well considering these 2 are being compared to the S2000 simply in terms of fun to drive and that the S2000 was from an era when fun to drive cars were everywhere compared to today and how much harder it is to produce cars that duplicate that recipe because of government regulations for emissions and safety, I’d say Im more impressed with the fact that the BRZ/ND2 Miata are able to replicate most of that
I love comments like this... yes Mate on todays money the s2000 were twice as expensive than these others... actually the s2000 was exactly twice as expensive when it came out than the miata... tell ya why the s2000 was the 50th anniversary model of Honda. In Europe it was the flagship model... that time the miata was 1.6 litres so s2000 and Miata has never been on the same level ever...
Amazing cars all three. Something I never liked about the MX5s and C7 Z51 I owned, was the inability to recline the seat to take a nap. The BRZ finally gives me this freedom 😄
@A Z Long roadie, returning from Death Valley. Endless drone on Hwy 395 had me ready to nod off. Better to pull over and take a short snooze than be a safety risk to myself and others. I was really wishing that my ND2's seat reclined.
@A Z Working night shift as Taxi drivers. But now, I do a 15min power nap after lunch. Also, waiting for wife, if I don't feel like like helping with grocery. Today, youngster are glued to their phone, but I'd rather take a nap in those down time.
Staying silent just demonstrates how connected this car makes you feel with it, it provides a true driving experience. And we can see that by your facial expressions... The S2000 is a really special machine, and the more years go by people realize that!
To be fair, the S2000 was built to a price point that would be considerably more than the other two when adjusted for inflation. In addition, S2000 prices (and certainly CR prices in particular) will likely continue to rise over the coming years putting it even further out of reach for many. Few would disagree that the S2000 is a special car, but what this video also shows is just how far the Miata and the BRZ have come by comparison. Though the BRZ can't go top-free, it offers added flexibility as a 2+2 coupe. It is a credit to Subaru and Toyota that the BRZ/GR86 is as capable as it is.
I owned a Miata and did a LOT of wheel time in the S2000 selling them at Honda. The high revving nature of the S2000 can get to be very grating in heavy SoCal. And you are 100% correct that the "snick, snick" nature on that shifter is simply the best shifter EVER! However, since 99% of us will never see a race track, much less get on one, trackability is meaningless for most. (In sales, we call that selling the "dream".) I see these as "switchback champions" designed to give precise feeling in handling like a British Roadster of the 60's). I prefer a car that is LIGHT, tactile in feel and with great driver input. The BRZ & S2000 are almost identical in weight at 2,815 & 2,813 lbs respectively. However, the Miata is 2,341 lbs. That's 2 extra large adults you're dragging around every turn! As my automotive hero, Colin Chapman (Founder of Lotus) said decades ago, "Adding horsepower makes you faster in the straights. LIGHTNESS makes you faster EVERYWHERE!!! These cars were not designed for the "straights". A Mazda Miata soft top WILL be my next 2nd car once again.
Interesting how there are widely different perspectives, I've owned 2 s2000's previously, sold the second one to help pay for school, and now I'm back in the market for another RWD fun car. I had the chance to drive a stock RF GT-S 2019 ND2 on some great, very tight canyon roads and I had a blast, it's extremely forgiving and playful. However after years of driving the S2000, doing lots of canyon time in it and several track days, somehow the Miata just wasn't enough. I found the limits of the tires very quickly in it and had fun hooning around in it, but it's just not sharp enough for my tastes. Logically the Mx-5 should win, it's new, whereas the newest S2000 you can buy is from 2009, and it would be much cheaper to maintain and upgrade the Miata. But I find that in my mind I was chasing the S2000 level of performance in the Miata which just isn't there, especially not engine and transmission wise. I started doing a lot of research into what mods I could do to the Miata... to make it match the performance of the S2000, but in the end I'd rather take a stock s2000 over a miata that was modified to bring it up to the level of performance of a S2000. I find myself trying to logically justify why the Miata is always the answer, but a "toy" car like this is not a decision driven by logic, but passion... Watching this video and listening to the sounds of the cars back to back... Remembering the feel of the shifter, the sound of the motor screaming at 8200 rpm... the look and functionality of the driver centric cockpit.... I think I'll be getting my 3rd S2000 after all...
@@spitfirezip100 The S2000 is the best pure sports car of the three. But how meaningful is this when the car is no longer in production? Honda did not compromise on power and ride stiffness when they designed this car, and so self-limited its sales to hard-core motorheads. And guess what? Too few of this endangered species remain in the USA to make the S2000 a viable business case for Honda to import. In a way, the car's excellence was its downfall. Mazda, on the other hand, provided the MX5 with all the sports car essentials as well as class-winning lightness and reliability. But wisely, they delivered American models softly sprung and bargain-priced. Americans whose idea of a sports car is a little roadster driven on sunny weekends at moderate speeds loved the MX5 from the year it was fret imported until this very day. And motorheads also love their MX5 when set up with the performance components they prefer from an unmatched aftermarket. Add everything up and you have a recipe for long-term success for Mazda -- one of the few sports cars to be profitable for their builder, to the point they can develop and improve the car over time. With a no-compromise car, Honda were forced to cease production of the S2000.
I'd nominate this as the most well rounded introspective analysis ever on youtube, you defeated common thinking of s2000 being king, and nailed the lightness of the miata in soulful mastery of opinion and I'd have to agrre and you also mentioned soft-top at that. Once you said light, tactile with great driver input I knew you were about to contest with the MIata no doubt. I got in the nd2, experienced exhilarating power with handling in the parking lot over doing donuts and I was pretty much blown away. I'd wanted one just on looks only since a teen looking at the na/nb cant remember. I ended up getting an nb2 with broken in miles pandemic year and enjoy it a lot, especially the cosmetics, too bad the ND has those taillights, which only look fine with the yesteryear's dark grey metallic whatever when they had the burgundy seats dont think that grey is still available but they nailed it that year with those colors given taillights super clean. Nd2 soft top club.
Always seeing enjoy seeing a car which it's production ceased in 2009 being compared to others in 2020's. Just shows what a game charger the S2000 was between 1999 and 2009.
This is all you really need to know, S2000 destroys cars 20 years later, both shows how good it was and how garbage modern sports cars are with their fake engine notes, legion of electronic assists and bullshit that still don't help.
@@qtest202 The S2000 shouldn't even be compared to these cars. If the S2000 released today with inflation it would be a 50,000+ USD car. It not in the same class at all.
@@Zygrene word about parking S2000s in California. Just went down to Streets of Willow, overnight in a hotel. Wake up and see marks on my lock as if someone tried to hammer a screwdriver into it. Joke's on them my door lock was already broken.
I bought a salvage 03 that came with solid mounts and a mugen rep hardtop. Drove it last January from Oregon to Montana in winter, definitely an interesting drive. I threw Blizzaks on it to mess around in the snow from time to time and even go grocery shopping with it lol. It's not a bad car to daily drive. Luckily I don't have the theft issues like Cali does, most people don't even know what it is when they see it here.
I think you have to consider the price factor as well. The resale price for the CR is insane! You can probably get a used RF + new BRZ for the price of one CR.
As an owner of a low mileage 2007 AP2 S-2000, I can truly say that it's one of the most fun cars that I've ever owned (btw, I'm 69 yrs. old). Most of the time, I drive it like I stole it.
@@Zygrene I hope you will try a 4th gen VTEC Prelude one day. I own both and cornering speed is just as good. Also double wishbone front and rear but longer wheelbase. And much closer to 50/50 than 5th gen you tested.
The S2000 is an absolute classic. I have once driven an S2000 Mk2 and NC1 Miata back-to-back to make a buying decision between the two. My heart said S2000 but believe it or not I ended up buying the NC1. Both were really clean low mileage examples, but the S2000 was still twice the price of the fully decked out NC1 Miata. Remember the S2000 was never really competing with Miatas in terms of price (S2000 was more in Porsche Boxter territory). So price obviously played a part in my buying decision, but sometimes I still regret not putting down the extra cash. That S2000 felt a lot sharper and exciting. But the reality was that I felt the Miata was way better as a daily driver, while still getting me like 80% of the fun at half the price when getting to the back roads. Now compare an S2000 with a Porsche Boxter of the same era. As raw and fun as the S2000 is, I'm still not sure what I'd choose.
BRZ. 1) A dealer can do it for you, electronically turning off the “Active Sound Control” feature. 2) You can pop off an access panel at the end of the dash, reach in, and unplug the sound module. Noise module delete available for ND2.
A really useful and well considered review for those considering buying a new Mx5 RF or a BRZ/GR86 . The addition of the S2000 gives a great benchmark for the comparison. Thanks.
I am glad someone else finally did this test. Great video. Having spent now a unbelievable amount of time in all three any of the three cars are great in their own right.
I could probably rock with the brz as a daily but where’s the fun in having what everyone else has or will have. I like driving the competition and I like how light the ND2 is plus the open air experience. I already have a corvette with a tiny cockpit so the nd2 won’t be much different. The brz is a very nice alternative if you need more space but it just won’t deliver the same experience as the nd1&2 because of the weight difference. So for a great majority of us, this is why Miata is always the answer😁
Versus regular S2000, the CR also came factory equipped with rear tires sized up to 255, short throw shifter, ‘sport tuned’ exhaust, sound deadening gutted, and a chassis stiffener in place of the spare tire.
The rear tire is really just a size up the wheels are the same width as all AP2s. The CR shifter is the same as 00-09 shifters but the knob sits further down it. The exhaust is different and it does have more chassis stiffening, sway bars/shocks/springs, and an AP1 ratio steering rack with VGS.
Your chapters are kind of confusing. You have "handling" but only go over the BRZ and then you have "driving" where you only go over the ND2, and then "driving impressions" where you mainly focus on the S2k. Maybe it'd be better if you named the chapters by the cars you're referencing instead?
I own a 2014 MX 5. 30 mpg, 0 to 100 in ten seconds, no rust at six years, 61k miles. If you parked it in that line up people would say, 'what's that' it looks so different. A true roadster expression. They changed to the rear faring in 2016.
What a person is looking for out of a sports car to serve as a 2nd car is likely going to be different than were it to serve as an only car. Even then, what one person is looking for is likely to vary from what other people might be looking for. The key to purchasing not only cars, but countless other things as well, is for a person to be realistic with themselves when it comes to how they are likely going to be using it, understanding their preferences (and budget of course). I appreciate you mentioning these things.
Honestly I think it's a really simple answer for someone who's looking to buy. If it's your daily or only car, BRZ/GR 86 hands down. If it's 2nd or 3rd, then Miata if you want new or S2000 if you like old school. Can't go wrong.
A Miata as an only car can be tough depending on what other activities you're into but it, like the others are fun cars and will be light on the wallet.
Interesting how there are widely different perspectives, I've owned 2 s2000's previously, sold the second one to help pay for school, and now I'm back in the market for another RWD fun car. I had the chance to drive a stock RF GT-S 2019 ND2 on some great, very tight canyon roads and I had a blast, it's extremely forgiving and playful. However after years of driving the S2000, doing lots of canyon time in it and several track days, somehow the Miata just wasn't enough. I found the limits of the tires very quickly in it and had fun hooning around in it, but it's just not sharp enough for my tastes. Logically the Mx-5 should win, it's new, whereas the newest S2000 you can buy is from 2009, and it would be much cheaper to maintain and upgrade the Miata. But I find that in my mind I was chasing the S2000 level of performance in the Miata which just isn't there, especially not engine and transmission wise. I started doing a lot of research into what mods I could do to the Miata... to make it match the performance of the S2000, but in the end I'd rather take a stock s2000 over a miata that was modified to bring it up to the level of performance of a S2000. I find myself trying to logically justify why the Miata is always the answer, but a "toy" car like this is not a decision driven by logic, but passion... Watching this video and listening to the sounds of the cars back to back... Remembering the feel of the shifter, the sound of the motor screaming at 8200 rpm... the look and functionality of the driver centric cockpit.... I think I'll be getting my 3rd S2000 after all...
Great comment and I can definitely relate, having tons of seat time in various S2000s and 3+ hours in various ND1/2 Miatas. Keep in mind the quantifiable performance of a stock ND2 is still a tad better than a stock AP2 on the same tires. But I completely agree that the subjective feel of the S2000 is still in a league of its own, which is why I (like you) keep coming back to it after all these years.
Having owned all the vehicles in this video. Clean, low mileage S2000 have joined the 987.2 Cayman S territory. In which, I rather a 987.2 Cayman S over an S2000 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday’s.
I miss s2000 i drove rsx type-s to ferrari 430' yet s2k was most fun car. It is just perfect fun car and it is not that slow in straight line either. When i srove s2k lotus elise was compitable. Ferrari was fun too but it is feel heavy and not as nimble as s2k. Now i am looking to get s2k again cuz i know i want fun car. Rsx' s2k' g35' m3 m5 amg c63 coupe maserati gt ferrari etc out of all those car s2k was far better car to have fun. Good video very nice comments. Good overall review.
I've daily driven a ND1 RF for a month. I think it's good choice b/c the open top experience, and relatively soft damping. AP2 rides a bit more rougher and the engine feels more lively. Oddly I never drove a BRZ (not even the 1st gen) ...
Not missing out on much. BRZ was probably the most disappointing car I have ever owned. My shitty old NA MX5 with 400,000kms feels more satisfying to drive. New BRZ seems a lot better. But now its got the issue of looking ugly and fake engine noise. Simply cant win. I will stick with my NC3 MX5 and Porsche Cayman. (I love the ND MX5, but it has no passenger legroom)
@@Zygrene I know right I’ve had several 8th Gen Si’s, CL9 TSX, now GD3 I just love now Honda manual gearbox is consistent just the right clutch pedal feedback and throw.
Nice review and breakdown of each car. I like how you described their characteristics and how they could suit different tastes rather than just an outright "this one is the best". I think the thing that I'm most excited about is the fact that we have both the ND2 and gr86/BRZ options at around $30k, and when you consider how much an AP2 was when new the value is amazing.
I like your review on each car. All of them are fun to drive. To me is a matter of taste, comfort and personal background. My background is mostly on race cars and race karts, thus my preference is the S2000. Also, being that I'm not tall nor fat I fit perfectly in it. Kudos!
BRZ/86 are super nice and perfect as a daily as you said, it can definitely be your single car! (although maybe having a second truck/big suv, even old ones will probably comes handy) ND2 is so light and also pretty daily driveable imo, is also my favourite aesthetically speaking, you'll have a problem only when you'll need to carry more than one person and if you need to carry a lot of stuff. Let's be real: is hard and probably impossible at one point to live only with a miata, you should buy it a second car, this is the hard truth :'( The S2000 (I consider only the AP1) as of today is still the best honda ever made (IMO) and is also basically an investment if you care... Its biggest "flaw" is being old. Nothing else. Oh and costing 30k today is another problem I guess..... You can daily drive it probably for a week then you will probably want to drive something else, and it's fine like this. You should enjoy your S2k on weekends! So this makes it the perfect second or third car (if you're rich). So what do I think? There is one GIANT problem: I WANT THEM ALL 😫
love to get some tips from you on brake pad/fluid upgrades - I get my BRZ in April and its the first sports car i've had in 30-35 years. Looking forward to all the fun things to do with it.
Depends if its staying on street or going to the track. PMU club racer pads are great, I've used these on both street and track with good results. Prestone fluid is fine for street, it also will work for track but PMU fluid is worth it's price if you track often. 22' BRZ will be ready for track in a few days.
I’m not sure where to begin… Piped in sound from the speakers, not even touching that. It’s just too easy. Overall sounds like the ND2 is the best, even based on your own experience. Congrats on your purchase dude & I get that you are partial to BRZ’s being you just laid out a bunch of bucks on one but come on dude. Really??? The steering in the ND2 is better not because it’s a lighter car (although that does play in), it’s because it has real suspension up font and not some McPherson strut off of a SUV. If you don’t like the “wiggle” in the MX5 then turn the traction control off and play all you like (it will). The S2000 as great as it is, is impractical to daily. We all know this. The BRZ is the outlier here, average at best in most everything even after spending money on suspension and the top doesn’t even go down. Not even a sunroof available… Really it’s just a “hot hatch” dressed in sport clothes. It’s only redemption is RWD with a so/so manual. May as well buy a Civic or Golf… Moral to the story is just get a MX5 ND2 and be done with it. The best of a BRZ and S2000 in one package. Daily it, track it, mountain road it, road trip it or all. I do. Curious where you are now a year later…
Super excited to watch. Love my ND1 and definitely feel like upgrading to the ND2 lately. Don't find myself missing my S2000 anymore, like how the ND is more friendly everyday.
S2k all day! Lol all three are amazing, but it definitely is nice to have a new car with a warranty! Great vid, would love to see a track review in the future with this same lineup
S2000 was literally double the price of both of these cars when it was new where I live. I rate the S2000 much higher as a pure sports car over the 86/BRZ and MX5.
Great video. You should have mentioned the price of the S2000CR when new, adjusted for inflation, is $48.2k ($36.3k end of 2007)... compared to the other two of about $30k new. Which shows how technology has advanced to the point where you can afford a new car as nice as an s2000 for $30k, where 20years ago, you could not. Obviously an s2000 has held it's value well... but who's going to garage an s2000CR and rarely drive it so you can keep it from depreciation... some sucker, I guess.
A new RF MX5 Club is $39215 today with 180hp lmfao S2000 CR crushes itand can hold 803whp on stock block - the Miatas engine would blow uo around half of that. You get what you pay for.
First off, what Money Talks said. Second, only idiot rich collectors buy a CR. Just get a normal one and put a wing on it and remove the AC. Congrats, you have a CR for half the price.
@@SuperJuicebox24 Why buy a sports car to leave stock? Stock block S2000s are running 9s@146+ .....bolt-on S2000s are breaking records in street rwd classes for time attack well under 2 minutes there with minimal mods The whole point of a momentum rwd 2L 3cyl car is handling and the S2000 has proven itself with lap times that crush the other two. Its why S2000s appreciate in value and you can buy a 2013 BRZ for cheap
@@TheFK8Life I own a low miles S2000 and I don't care about how much power the stock block can handle since the stock differential and transmission will eventually fail with over 450whp. I personally don't want to deal with that headache. If the stock trans and differential could hold power like a Supra, I would turbo my S2000.
I bought my ND2 last week, unfortunately within a period of 7 days rostered at work. I had three days off, and on both days I just went out and drove it on all of the twisty roads I could find and managed to go through a tank of fuel lol. The third day it was raining all day... Back at work, day 6 of 6 tomorrow and am praying for good weather to take it out again for a drive. Such a fun car.
I've owned an AP1 and AP2 s2k. By far one of the most raw fun to drive cars I have ever owned, would love to get a clean low mileage one for a second car. Back to the vid you nailed the s2k shifter. It's buttery smooth yet perfectly mechanical and loves to be shifted at high revs with a -snic-
@@mrlee4579 I had an early AP1 with the plastic rear window the non-revised suspension vs my 2005 AP2. Honestly they were both really fun to drive but I would probably go for an AP1 with a glass rear window.
I can't believe the S2K is still apart of these convos. It's been more than 10 years since they were last made. Says something about late 90's & 00's Honda engineering.
Says something about a car that had an MSPR of 50,000 USD with inflation compared to cars with 30k. 20,000 USD makes up a lot of difference in aftermarket parts. Let alone from factory comparisons in design.
I totally thought that was a creative pan/dolly move at 19:55 😄 That guy needs to be hired as your cameraman. Here's to happy accidents... Great to get your take on these three. This is another one I've been waiting for.
The S2K may be the best but at it's current price point it's just not worth it. I've seen CRs go for 40k-60k this is a 20 year old car. There's just no way that would be a smart business decision when you can get a very low miles or brand new BRZ, GR86, or ND.
Another really great video! Really happy to see these three vehicles out, and being compared like this! I'm really hoping to pick up (Most likely the BRZ) someday soon, to finally get a taste of RWD.
The S 2000 is a blast to drive. After watching this video I have even more appreciation for what Honda accomplished. In a very short time the politicians will have everyone driving electric. People will be watching videos like this to remember what freedom looked and sounded like.
Nice video. The S2000 was released 23 years ago, the fact that other Japanese car companies are just barely figuring out how to almost reach the S2000 performance is crazy. Sidenote, if you are looking at any of these 3 cars and thinking you can't afford them or don't want to go into that much debt, check out the BMW 128i. The inline 6 is amazing, and fairly reliable (for a BMW). You'll get great power delivery, 6 speed manual option, great engine note (especially with headers), and you can get a bit more power with a 3 stage intake manifold and tune. But the best part is they are only 7k-10k. The few issues they do have are well documented and fairly easy to do yourself. I'd recommend the sport package/sport seats. Only car I've driven that comes close to the S2000.
No, it's that the for example the BRZ is 28-32k MSRP, the S2000 MSRP adjusted for inflation was 48-52k USD. The S2000 CR had an MSRP with inflation adjustment to today of 58-60K USD. Literally twice the price of a 2022 BRZ. It's not that they are just barely figuring it out. It's that it's become affordable to make available to the general public at half the price.
@@AthenaAutocross My thoughts exactly. These dumb people who say that the BRZ/ND2s are 'finally' keeping up to the 20 year old S2k never seem to realise that the S2k costed almost Porsche Boxster money. The fact that people like MediocreMan expect a $30k BRZ/ND2 to have capabilities of a $60k Porsche 718 Boxster is so stupid.
That smile on the face when driving the S2k, I can relate so much. Still nothing in its class comes close. Best regards from a fellow S2k owner from Germany. :-)
I've driven a AP2 s2000 and daily drove a 6 speed nd2 soft top club for 18 months. The ND2 peak torque comes on much earlier than the S2000, which made it decent to daily drive. The AP2 is a better toy/track car, but they're not worth the price used when you can get a NEW ND2. The only problem with the miata is the body roll. With full sway bars, the car changes completely and I'd argue is better than the S2000. I miss that car everyday but I just didn't fit in it. I have a short torso and the way the seats work, it has basically no adjustment other than sliding on a descending rail. I'm looking at a Camaro SS 1LE now, but the new BRZ/86 has peaked my interest. A big V8 won't be as nimble in the canyons, but I was surprised with the Camaro's handling and performance.
My third video of yours and I'm hooked. You have a common sense approach to your observations and discussion. I have found myself fully engaged and wanting to hear your next comment and/or assertion. I just purchased and am awaiting the delivery of a '23 BRZ premium and can't wait. I've found your discussion of yours to be very interesting and informative. Growing up in the Bay Area, i thought some of the roads you driving looked remotely familiar. I look forward to viewing more of your content while I wait for my BRZ to be delivered. (BTW ... I'm a new sub) Cheers and safe tracking ... Dave
I've got offset strut tops on my BRZ, more caster, gives dynamic camber up front and a little heavier steering feel. Feels sweet but I don't do any autocross or anything. It would probably bump you up do the modified category.
Thank you for your entertaining comparison of three highly dissimilar cars. Their differences make any attempt at comparison pointless, but it was fun watching you drive them in the twisties and listen to your spontaneous comments in real time. The BRZ is not a sports car, it is a sport coupe. Its mission is entirely different from the other two cars. Nevertheless it handles well enough to be fun on a back road, and so could serve as a daily driver for a young family, able to meet everyone's needs, including Dad's when he wants to do an occasional track day. The Club version of the Miata has plenty of bling, with brand-name Brembo, BBS, Recaro, and Bilstein components (some at extra cost), placing the car in a special category -- but in reality more a cosmetic than a performance package. To compete at virtually any level of Miata racing, and there are many, the brakes, suspension, wheels, and tires must be upgraded. For this reason, experienced Miata racers will order the base Sport, which most Miata buyers are not even aware of because the dealers steer them toward the more luxurious GT or the sportier Club, both costing several thousand more than the Sport. While most Club owners who want to compete will have to ditch their expensive Bilsteins and Brembos for more competition-oriented shocks and brakes, the Sport owner can invest some of the several thousand saved by not going for a Club into a full suspension setup, fine-tuned to his driving style. Same with the wheels, tires, and brakes. The Miata is the only true sports car of this threesome because its top goes down. Well, sort of. That electric targa top is intended for the "cute-car" Miata community, who make up nearly half its owner base. To these folks, being seen behind the wheel of a Miata means that like the car, you too are sexy and stylish. For them, Mazda offers not just the targa top, but a very good automatic transmission, pastel paint jobs, luxury interior trim packages, dual-zone AC, and other options you'd never expect on a sports car. That's because to these owners it's a sports car in name only. If the above has to some resulted in the Miata being a "girlie car," that's okay because all those buyers have financed not only the Miata's survival, but its refinement over three decades. While offering the baubles that attract the fashionista market, Mazda made sure the underlying car remains true to its mission as a sports car. For the price of a Mazda3 econobox, you can buy a genuine performance car with all-aluminum wishbone suspension, a close-ratio six-speed manual (no overdrive), and a naturally aspirated engine that incorporates race technology to lighten reciprocating parts, improve breathing, enhance fuel flow, and withstand a 13:1 compression ratio. Mazda deliver the car in a mild state of tune, and that's what makes it so appealing to so many demographics. Many owners will leave their Miata completely stock and consider it a perfect sports car for their Sunday drives. For those who want more performance, a huge aftermarket awaits. If you want, you can own a 500-horsepower Miata, legal in all 50 states. Honda, on the other hand, bet their money on performance and driver engagement from the get-go, and it delivers the goods with the least compromise of these three. Including the competition model in this comparison is unfair to the Mazda, because Honda's version, hard top included, is for hard-core racers. Only 200 of these were delivered to the American market in 2008. Even the regular S2000's purity of purpose as a driver's car ultimately led to its doom. Lacking the Miata's broad appeal, the S2000 never sold anywhere near the numbers Honda was expecting. Despite refinements and a loyal owner base, the hard truth was that performance-oriented sports car driving is dying out everywhere, and unlike Mazda, Honda had no other market to sell the S2000 to. And so we have three highly dissimilar cars, their only commonality being that they are fun to drive on twisty roads. If you are a performance-oriented driver, one of them will stand out for you. That is the one to buy.
This is the first vid I've seen of yours and just want to say I really liked the review, you touched on all the points I was curious about, and you're very well spoken, excellent job! Looking forward to more
Got and ND1 RF right now with a BRZ on order. I had a 2014 BRZ before the RF. I agree that the ND is a car that is fun at 5/10ths and that’s because it’s relative softness means that it moves around more. Every control input creates weight transfer. The ND gets ragged on the limit though.
Exactly. Take a look at one lap heroes review of the Miata who is probably one of the few chanels out there that are honest about it. I felt the same way when I owned my ND2. It was not confidence inspiring around corners at all. I preferred my Brz TS much better.
@@C_Suarez The ND out of the box is setup as a fun road car. It’s not setup (out of the box) for track work, so if that’s why you are buying it, you’ll definitely need to mod it. As a “fun road car”, it’s brilliant…which is what it was designed to be. And it takes mods well. The BRZ/86 is definitely a better track car out of the box. But it’s a more “serious” car and as a road car, it’s doesn’t quite have the ND’s sense of fun.
I absolutely loved this review. I have owed a BRZ and raced in Targa and Vinland Motorsports events. My brother bought an ND1. I love my NC brilliant black. Cheers
Like the comparo. The S2000 cost around $34,000 in 2001. It's really a class above both of these cars but all three are fun to drive. It's too bad other manufacturers don't have a light weight, rwd option. Chevy and Nissan both cancelled theirs.
I was just thinking of Chevy's Code 130 R and Nissan's IDx concepts, both of which were canceled after being teased to enthusiasts as affordable 1 Series (BMW) alternatives. Missed opportunities... Looking forward to Fenton's drive of the new Z, although I'm still hoping Nissan steps up with a new Silvia/240sx down the line.
Great video Ive driven s2000 and I found it a bit scary at the limit as it tends to oversteer aggressively and not as progressively as I would like. Perhaps the CR model solves they issue. I found that I prefer the handling characteristics of E36 M3 to it. I owned a well sorted Miata NC and I found it to be predictable and friendly at the limit. I do have you say that the transmission and engine are amazing in the s2000. I didn't really enjoy the steering due to lack of communication.
Did you drive an AP1 (1999-2003 model) or an AP2 (2004-2009)? The earlier model AP1 was notorious for aggressive oversteer. The AP2 has much better handling.
@@xXUnoriginalNameXx33Meygaera it was ap2 - it was a bit twitchy at the limit, it could have been down to the tires and the suspension set up though. NC Miata with a dialed in suspension made me feel like a driving God, while ap2 made me mostly cautious.
I rolled on a few s2k runs in Oregon with the club up here just as a passenger to shoot photos. They def can swap sides; We were coming around a good 35 mph turn and one guy was facing us. Funny and thank god it was early a rural road with few vehicles. They def can bite especially on public roads with all the unanticipated variables that come with it! My 370z is a plow horse even with a front swaybar change and mild camber, so, I don't get to "play" as much, but it's "enough" for public roads... I still think Porsche is the end game vehicle, having spent some time with the PCA members at the track, most of them started in lower power vehicles like miatas and some older bmws....
I would never pay $30,000 for a twenty year old s2000 with probably 200,000 miles on it. It even looks worn out from the video. Also this is the first time ever on a road test someone has ever chosen an s2000 over the max-5 for the shifter. Strange.
I've owned an 08 CR delete since new. Between the lack of AC/radio and removing the top mine comes in at a tick below 2,700 pounds, which inches it even closer to the featherweight ND2. Hands down the best car I've ever owned and even better once the top is removed.
@@guiltyspark652 And 500-pounds lighter than what's considered lightweight today, so it's all relative. But yeah, the ND2 is a featherweight. It's a Lotus with reliability.
This is the exact video I needed! Thank you, I’m looking for my next project car for track use so S2K, GR86 and MX5 ND are all in contention! Great content 👍🏻
Seems as though the BRZ ticks many boxes. Good power, handling and driving experience without sacrificing space. Owned an ND1, have driven an S2000. They're purpose built cars. I feel like the BRZ gives just that bit of flexibility to do a grocery run, or rip to Home Depot and still hit the turns on weekends. Would love to hear about real world MPG.
I have driven an AP1 and for the money I went with a brand new ST ND2 club BBR. If you go to the track, I understand the appeal of the S2000. Driving the car around town, the AP1 engine needs to be revved more (low torque), and seems to have a lot of squeaks and rattles. Surprisingly, the ND2 rides better, less harsh, and I just love how fast I can take the top down. The Bose sound system is useable and decent for a top down car plus a new car warranty can't hurt. Didn't care much on the Toyobaru since its not a convertible and my ND2 is just a weekend car. Everybody else's miles may vary. Get whatever floats your boat.
I also have owned three S2Ks and I miss them. What a fantastic engineering job Honda did, for a platform that is going on 20 years (for the AP2) and for it to still exceed new sports cars is a testament to the passion that went into it. I hope Honda does not redo it. Just leave it a classic.
Not sure your comment re the first gen BRZ coming with Primacy "All Season" tires is correct. Mine is a '17 Ltd with Perf. Pack and OEM tires are the Primacy, but they are summer performance, not all-season. I have to run winter tires to cope with the cold winter temperatures. Anyway, nice reviews. Nice to have reviews by someone who really knows how to drive and wring out these cars, and dig out the more subtle differences. Would be fun to see a comparo with an older gen BRZ too. Interesting that the dyno is showing Subaru apparently sandbagged the numbers. Looking forward to driving one. I test drove a '16 Miata before I bought the BRZ and a couple things stood out. 1. It was really loud on the interstate - even at 60 mph, top up or down. 2. With the seating position, height of doors, rear seats, etc, it felt more like a T-top than convertible. 3. There is nowhere to put stuff in the cockpit if you have a passenger. Coats, purses, etc can only go in the footwell or trunk. Even if my BRZ backseats are small, I can put coats, hats, purses, etc back there. Some of the old old gen sports cars had a little area behind the seats. I think there is a hidden cubby behind the Miata driver's seat, but you have to be out of the car to get to it. That said, I did have to applaud the person I saw at Costco in a Miata with the passenger side stuffed full of Costco stuff. Way to make it work! (Of course his wife, whom he left in the store, was likely not nearly as impressed! LOL)
What a great review! It's really good to see such an informed objective opinion on these vehicles especially considering that you have "skin in the game" as a BRZ owner. You haven't made my midlife crisis any easier though! Honda sound and gearbox? The practicality and grunt of the BRZ? The true to sports car philosophy and so, so nice styling of the Mazda? I guess the ute (I'm Australian) will have to do for now. Then again... my Wife needs a new car...?
I love how people call 200hp a small amount of power, people have bern brainwashed by the hp race, the gt86 is an amazing car and i’m sad that people only look at hp numbers
This is nothing new. Aside from the fuel crisis years, car buyers have almost always been enamored with more horsepower in this country. Most only care about straight line performance, so a car like the GT 86 is a disappointment to them. This has pretty much always been true of affordable sports cars. Buyers interested in a good balance between handling and power have been in decline for decades. Leaving so few choices when it comes to such cars.
Have had a 13 Club Spec and an 18 Abarth. NC was my only vehicle for 5 years. Moderate snow was fine once you ditched the awful stock tires for decent all seasons. For a mid 20 something with no kids it was fine. Both cars sucked on long trips. They are loud. The NC seats killed your lower back after an hour. Both are very tiring on long drives. Noise is part of it, but with them tracking the road and very responsive to steering inputs requires paying more attention. Unless you have kids or need to haul large things there is no reason you cannot daily them. Trunk is big enough for costco runs. Both were cheap/reliable/fun cars. At this point I upgraded to a truck due to hobbies and fixing up a house. Sold the abarth for a viper which is not something I would recommend as a daily.
Great feedback.. I've driven the ND2 RF, previously owned a 1st gen BRZ and currently own a CR and couldn't agree more. Really need to try the new BRZ/GR86!
Hey Zygrene, if you were to throw the Lotus Elise into the mix, how would you sort of place it or consider it against the GR86? I'm coming from an ND2 Miata that I've tracked ~5 times. Fortunately I don't need a daily driver, but it would be a small plus. Elise's can be found for $35k, so pretty much same OTD price as a premium GR! The only thing worrying me about the lotus is I'd say I'm beginner to intermediate on track experience. What are your thoughts? Thanks! Funny thing actually, I've also commented on your past posts asking about advice before I bought the ND2! Been there and since sold it. Thankfully covid used car prices meant I didn't lose much.
I own a NA, love the ND chassis, and helped a good friend drive a '06 Elise S with the 1ZZ and Nitron shocks back from UK. The most impressive thing about the Lotus is high speed corners, you feel the flat floor and diffuser starting to work there and that's something you don't get with any stock Miata. Now, with about 140hp, it's virtually impossible to break traction with the Elise, and stock, it has narrower front tyres. At 5/10, it's fun, at 9 - 10/10, it's great, but at like 7 - 8/10, there's a good chance you experience some understeer in low - mid speed corners. Basically, the front wants to be loaded, so you need to brake late and hard to make it turn (the brakes are great btw). So the strat is hard on the brakes into turn in to make the car rotate / slide a bit, then stomp the throttle once the car is facing the right direction to plant the rear back in and catapult out of the turn (throttle is actually a grip switch there, it's crazy). It's not for the faint hearted, but it's quite satisfying when you get it right. I know some people fit wider front wheels and tyres to reduce the front / rear thread width difference, haven't had experience with that setup though. One drawback with the Elise is the bodywork : front is one piece, same for the rear, and it's fiber, so any cosmetic damage can become quite expensive really quickly. And some OEM parts are hard to get because they're made on order. A cyclist crashed into my friend's Elise, the car was stopped, cyclist looked behind while going downhill and swerved into the car. Whole front mask and drver side headlight had to be replaced (as well as the upper control arm) : car got immobilized for more than a year because there was no headlight in stock. He didn't have to pay for the repairs, but if you parallel park it and someone just leans too much on your front end while backing up, you can end up with a 2.5k repair bill fairly quickly. Once you move past bodywork though, mechanical stuff is fine, especially if looking at Toyota engine versions, maintenance and repair costs will be reasonable. TL;DR : an Elise is great, but I think it requires a very good driver who's not afraid to go full out to really appreciate it (although that can be an excuse to learn). Daily driving capability is not good, trunk storage will cook your groceries, and you really don't want to parallel park it.
@@gt4lex While the S1 1ZZ Elise input is great, the performance of the Federal 2ZZ S2 Elise is another level and hopefully @Zygrene could comment on that as he has piloted them versus the S1.
@@tvrduude First off, the S1 Elise all had Rover K engines. Lotus switched away from those to Toyota engines in the middle of the S2 life cycle (a change to the rear suspension design was also made at this time). The car I drove is a S2 and litterally the exact same as a 111R, chassis and brakes wise, the only differences are the engine and gearbox (1ZZ Elise got the 5 speed vs the 6 speed that is common to the MR-S and both 1ZZ and 2ZZ T23 Celicas in EU). It will have the same dynamic balance as a federalized 111R. Also, I know the difference between the 1ZZ and the 2ZZ, and I really don't think it's enough to break traction in normal grip conditions. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if the 2ZZ brought more understeer when applying full throttle too early, although I don't think you would really feel much diference at all since the 1ZZ is only stronger at the top of the RPM range. Oh, my observations were made on new AD08R tyres btw.
@@gt4lex My bad, stating the S1 versus the S2 you said. I would agree the chassis dynamics should be similar, but I would tend to think the extra 40+ hp would make a decent difference. However, being in the USA, I have no readily accessible way to comparea 1ZZ to 2ZZ S2 Elise. I'll just have to be happy with the S240 Exige and 05 S2 Elise I do have...
Great video Zygrene! I was wondeering if the new Twins BRZ/86 comes with a spare tire. Also i been wondering how that NFC works... is it for quicker connection to the cars AA/Carplay?
I think this review was very fair, i'll still get a GR because i'm too tall for an ND2 and S2000 here are so expensive ! I don't have enough money to buy have two cars so i need that daily drivability. And man, who doesn't like a daily dose of drifting ?
Owner of the S2000 CR featured here...I paid mid $20k's for it as 7th owner with 90k miles on it and terrible paint
It does just go to show how even primitive engineering still stands competitively against modern era. That’s so cool.
It was a pretty pricey car for its time, equivalent to $45k today. Comparing it to a $30k car today, the BRZ.
@@FatalFist Not sure about that. All these cars are back to the basics sport coupes. The point is to be basic. They all have LSD, RWD, and manual tranny.
@@FatalFist I mean, the original S2k wasn't even in the same segment as the Miata back then.
how can the S2000 be described as 'primitive' in any way. it's not a C6 on leaf springs or something. double wishbones and aluminum construction.
The fact that the s2000 is even being compared to these brand new cars just goes to show how good of a car it was/is. An engineering masterpiece.
One of the best cars ever made. The end.
I wish Honda would pull their head out if their ass and make another. Their new cars are pretty "meh" unless you go Type R.
@Damian Chiliński those are more expensive and higher spec cars than the S2000. Even so, the S2K is still the better driver's car. Even so, I agree with your first point. The mx5 and the brz are specifically designed to be retro and old school. And we should thank Mazda and Subaru for it.
the s2000 is a masterpiece on wheels,the miata and brz are pretty basic little fun car but thats it.
@@CapFlipGaming Honda would be challenged to repeat this level of performance in today's world. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons the S2000 went away was because they couldn't make side air bags work (without perhaps unacceptable sacrifices). So, to make a modern version, they'd be saddled with requirements that did not exist back in the day. keeping weight down with the extra "baggage" would mean more lightweight materials leading to even higher cost. Not saying it couldn't be done, but whether it could be done at a price point that would make it viable for Honda in today's market is another story. Unfortunately, it seems that the resale price curve initially dipped enough for clowns to buy these cars and thrash them or slap on half baked mods. Now the re-sale prices are in a steep climb as it becomes more difficult to find one with a good pedigree. The author's suggestion of 30K is a bit optimistic in the Miata with the Club Sport package (which nets the limited slip, Brembo's, BBS wheels, etc_) Those seem to run closer to 33-35, which is a lot for a car that lacks badly in utility for many of us. But as noted, any of these three are a hoot to drive, and a far cry from the sterile EV's out there with automatic dog washers.
We should realize how lucky we are that it's now 20 years after the S2000 and we still have new BRZ/86 models. I'm not looking for a future dystopia society where we have nothing but 4 wheel drive electric cars
The worst irony is the fact that electric cars are no more environmentally friendly than gas cars, and potentially worse, and if we pushed for E85 or even E100 cars we'd be doing the environment more good.
Also 100 corporations produce 70% of total global emissions
I agree with you and ur avatar is awesome!
@@Aglai76 The way humans live in general is very environmentally wasteful. Electric cars is not the solution that will solve our environmental problems. It takes a lot of material and energy to power electric cars. The way to save our planet is to drastically change the way we live. We need to condense our cities where we wouldn't even need cars to get around.
As long as there are car enthusiasts, i dont think they'll all be AWD electrics. There will be rwd, for sure.
@@Aglai76 these are all facts. to bring your point further, ICE has been efficient as ever they've just gained so much weight from luxuries. Imagine a new barebones car with a modern ICE drivetrain and relatively low weight. In theory it should have great fuel economy. Also, synthetic corn fuel is becoming a thing so traditional fuel isn't going anywhere. Couple with the fact the U.S. infrastructure isn't set for a full EV evolution across the whole of the country. Maybe only major cities equiped with recharge stations.
I thought loved the sound of the Miata's engine until you started driving the S2000. What a beautiful sound that thing makes.
Can't beat that S2000 induction noise! No exhaust needed.
Can't say the same for the BRZ. Sounds terrible
I bought the S2000, sight unseen, when it first came out. It was the closest thing to meth on wheels. Keeping this car in the sweet spot, between 5000 and 8500 rpm was loud and raucous. I like my brz better, though, with the fake engine noise . Am I the only person who likes the fake engine noise? It's like a beautiful women faking a organism. It still sounds real to me.
They are blissful, if you ever get the chance to take one for a spin, do it.
@@heavyd2249 i bet you drive a pinto. The brz is the best
I'm starting to think these comparisons are just excuses to drive another S2000. : p I would be doing the same thing if I could. Great content as always.
You're absolutely on point and I make no excuses for my behavior.
His next video will be battle of the Silverstone Metallics: 2004 AP2 vs 2005 AP2.
@@pchae1 hahaha. Silverstone is such a great color on them. Give me an '00 or '01 with the partial red leather interior. AP1 FTW
I have a 04 Silverstone s2k and I approve of all these comments
My favorite RWD Japanese cars right now. So long as Zygrene is talking about and driving S2000s, all is okay with the world. Keep your S2000s if you can swing another daily folks--but don't get too crazy in keeping the miles slow (for what and whom). Drive it while it it is fresh and parts are relatively accessible. Now If I were going to buy a sub 50K RWD platform, it would be a tough choice between the new BRZ and ND.2. As I currently have a used NB which is a hoot to drive, ad Turo'ed a ND.2 for an extend period in California, I have a connection with the ND and may go with it If I didn't need the added practically from there BRZ. The build quality of the ND.2 is amazing. And double wishbone life is good. All great cars that should be celebrated; and, we need to go out there and buy them support these manufacturers. Who knows how long these light weight, RWD, Naturally Aspired cars they will be around. Live today folks.
if you keep track of the odometer, you won't be able to sleep at night.
Parts and aftermarket on s2000 has been expensive for years. Thanks to Covid all oem parts are even harder to get. Enjoy s2000 and drive it while you can. I tracked and raced down the mountain for years and move on. No regrets, it was same feeling with evo, enjoy it while you can.
If you are in the US, I am going to throw you a curveball/wildcard choice - Saturn Sky Redline. 260bhp 2l turbo ecotek (similar to the popular 2.4 ecotec that people swap into miatas), 290 with a simple chip from GM, push 320bhp quite easily with a stage1 kit. I've seen these listed as low as 7k in the last year. 10-12k for a low mileage one (and I mean under 20k miles low). Comes with an Aisen 5 speed manual (same one the polaris slingshot has actually), double wishbone at front, corvette style stressed member independent susp at back, torsen limited slip diff as standard on the redline. parts availability is good due to sharing a lot of components with other GM models, in spite of the retired badge.
I would recommend the sky/solstice to anyone with used miata money who is finding miatas going crazy in value for even shitty examples - its more car for the money,
Of course, I don't own one lol - I have a miata bought before prices went nuts. Test drove the sky redline recently and was very impressed, decided not to however because Im still too in love with my miata and dont need.... four cars.... three already too many... lol. But id recommend it to anyone wanting a cheap little roadster with surprisingly excellent performance.
The Kappa platform (sky) is a bit heavier than the S2000, but the turbo more than compensates and the 5 speed/wide torque bands in the ecotek mean you can actually spend more time in power/torque sweet spot than an S2000 where you need to row the gears constantly to keep it in the sweet spot. Basically, like a 5 speed NB miata, but with about 2x the power and torque. The extra weight actually helps put the power down on the ground plus its about a 15-10 years newer design platform and engine than the NA and NB miata or even S2000 and will protect you better in a crash.
If you are in Europe, esp UK - just get an S1 elise instead.
@@iainbagnall4825 bro sky are so underrated. Seen it tear it up at track
The S2K has to be one of the most timeless designs ever made. What a beauty, especially with the CR accessories.
I own both, a supercharged s2000 and a supercharged mx5 ND. I love the MX5 in the twistys and on tight country roads. The s2000 is more fun on the track tho. But in the city and real life the mx5 pulls better off the line and is more fun on the B roads. I love both cars but the supercharged mx5 with Ohlins coilovers never fails to put a huge smile on my face
The fact that these cars are being compared to a decade+ older car just speaks to how good the s2000 is. Its just such a well balanced and fun car to drive. And imo looks d best too lol.
Well considering these 2 are being compared to the S2000 simply in terms of fun to drive and that the S2000 was from an era when fun to drive cars were everywhere compared to today and how much harder it is to produce cars that duplicate that recipe because of government regulations for emissions and safety, I’d say Im more impressed with the fact that the BRZ/ND2 Miata are able to replicate most of that
I love comments like this... yes Mate on todays money the s2000 were twice as expensive than these others... actually the s2000 was exactly twice as expensive when it came out than the miata... tell ya why the s2000 was the 50th anniversary model of Honda. In Europe it was the flagship model... that time the miata was 1.6 litres so s2000 and Miata has never been on the same level ever...
TWO decades, the clue is in the same.
14years ago the 2008 2000CR hit the market. Adjusted for inflation, its a $48.2k car ($36.3k price in Dec 2007).
Yes, this. The S2000 kept its value for a reason.
S2000 FTW still 2+ decades later!!
Amazing cars all three. Something I never liked about the MX5s and C7 Z51 I owned, was the inability to recline the seat to take a nap. The BRZ finally gives me this freedom 😄
Underrated comment! Ability to recline for naps is key for a daily driver
Very important for us enthusiast who love our car, we need to be able to sleep with it. I also did the reclining test on the GR86 and ideal for a nap.
@A Z Long roadie, returning from Death Valley. Endless drone on Hwy 395 had me ready to nod off. Better to pull over and take a short snooze than be a safety risk to myself and others. I was really wishing that my ND2's seat reclined.
If the concept of napping in a car seems odd to you, that's an easy way to tell you haven't been in the military. 😉
@A Z Working night shift as Taxi drivers. But now, I do a 15min power nap after lunch. Also, waiting for wife, if I don't feel like like helping with grocery. Today, youngster are glued to their phone, but I'd rather take a nap in those down time.
Staying silent just demonstrates how connected this car makes you feel with it, it provides a true driving experience. And we can see that by your facial expressions... The S2000 is a really special machine, and the more years go by people realize that!
Well said. I was clearly the most excited in the Honda!
To be fair, the S2000 was built to a price point that would be considerably more than the other two when adjusted for inflation. In addition, S2000 prices (and certainly CR prices in particular) will likely continue to rise over the coming years putting it even further out of reach for many. Few would disagree that the S2000 is a special car, but what this video also shows is just how far the Miata and the BRZ have come by comparison. Though the BRZ can't go top-free, it offers added flexibility as a 2+2 coupe. It is a credit to Subaru and Toyota that the BRZ/GR86 is as capable as it is.
I owned a Miata and did a LOT of wheel time in the S2000 selling them at Honda. The high revving nature of the S2000 can get to be very grating in heavy SoCal. And you are 100% correct that the "snick, snick" nature on that shifter is simply the best shifter EVER!
However, since 99% of us will never see a race track, much less get on one, trackability is meaningless for most. (In sales, we call that selling the "dream".)
I see these as "switchback champions" designed to give precise feeling in handling like a British Roadster of the 60's). I prefer a car that is LIGHT, tactile in feel and with great driver input. The BRZ & S2000 are almost identical in weight at 2,815 & 2,813 lbs respectively. However, the Miata is 2,341 lbs. That's 2 extra large adults you're dragging around every turn!
As my automotive hero, Colin Chapman (Founder of Lotus) said decades ago, "Adding horsepower makes you faster in the straights. LIGHTNESS makes you faster EVERYWHERE!!!
These cars were not designed for the "straights".
A Mazda Miata soft top WILL be my next 2nd car once again.
But if you have to choose between BRZ and MX-5 as first and only daily driver?
@@Aiumy91 I think MX-5 is cheaper to maintain, if you don't care about space I would go MX-5 if you need more space and a solid roof BRZ/GR86.
Interesting how there are widely different perspectives, I've owned 2 s2000's previously, sold the second one to help pay for school, and now I'm back in the market for another RWD fun car. I had the chance to drive a stock RF GT-S 2019 ND2 on some great, very tight canyon roads and I had a blast, it's extremely forgiving and playful. However after years of driving the S2000, doing lots of canyon time in it and several track days, somehow the Miata just wasn't enough. I found the limits of the tires very quickly in it and had fun hooning around in it, but it's just not sharp enough for my tastes.
Logically the Mx-5 should win, it's new, whereas the newest S2000 you can buy is from 2009, and it would be much cheaper to maintain and upgrade the Miata.
But I find that in my mind I was chasing the S2000 level of performance in the Miata which just isn't there, especially not engine and transmission wise. I started doing a lot of research into what mods I could do to the Miata... to make it match the performance of the S2000, but in the end I'd rather take a stock s2000 over a miata that was modified to bring it up to the level of performance of a S2000. I find myself trying to logically justify why the Miata is always the answer, but a "toy" car like this is not a decision driven by logic, but passion...
Watching this video and listening to the sounds of the cars back to back... Remembering the feel of the shifter, the sound of the motor screaming at 8200 rpm... the look and functionality of the driver centric cockpit....
I think I'll be getting my 3rd S2000 after all...
@@spitfirezip100 The S2000 is the best pure sports car of the three. But how meaningful is this when the car is no longer in production? Honda did not compromise on power and ride stiffness when they designed this car, and so self-limited its sales to hard-core motorheads. And guess what? Too few of this endangered species remain in the USA to make the S2000 a viable business case for Honda to import. In a way, the car's excellence was its downfall.
Mazda, on the other hand, provided the MX5 with all the sports car essentials as well as class-winning lightness and reliability. But wisely, they delivered American models softly sprung and bargain-priced. Americans whose idea of a sports car is a little roadster driven on sunny weekends at moderate speeds loved the MX5 from the year it was fret imported until this very day. And motorheads also love their MX5 when set up with the performance components they prefer from an unmatched aftermarket.
Add everything up and you have a recipe for long-term success for Mazda -- one of the few sports cars to be profitable for their builder, to the point they can develop and improve the car over time. With a no-compromise car, Honda were forced to cease production of the S2000.
I'd nominate this as the most well rounded introspective analysis ever on youtube, you defeated common thinking of s2000 being king, and nailed the lightness of the miata in soulful mastery of opinion and I'd have to agrre and you also mentioned soft-top at that. Once you said light, tactile with great driver input I knew you were about to contest with the MIata no doubt. I got in the nd2, experienced exhilarating power with handling in the parking lot over doing donuts and I was pretty much blown away. I'd wanted one just on looks only since a teen looking at the na/nb cant remember. I ended up getting an nb2 with broken in miles pandemic year and enjoy it a lot, especially the cosmetics, too bad the ND has those taillights, which only look fine with the yesteryear's dark grey metallic whatever when they had the burgundy seats dont think that grey is still available but they nailed it that year with those colors given taillights super clean. Nd2 soft top club.
Always seeing enjoy seeing a car which it's production ceased in 2009 being compared to others in 2020's.
Just shows what a game charger the S2000 was between 1999 and 2009.
This is all you really need to know, S2000 destroys cars 20 years later, both shows how good it was and how garbage modern sports cars are with their fake engine notes, legion of electronic assists and bullshit that still don't help.
@@qtest202 The S2000 shouldn't even be compared to these cars. If the S2000 released today with inflation it would be a 50,000+ USD car.
It not in the same class at all.
@@AthenaAutocross Hear hear!
does it really destroy other cars?
@@samster978 maybe in a track yeah.
The S2000 is not bad to live with as an only car as long as you keep the motor mounts stock, have no holes in the soft top, and don't drive on 200TWs.
Naw S2K on RT660s or A052s is the meta, your balls gotta be huge to dive in corners, and you gotta have the late braking skills of Lewis Hamilton
Stock AP2 can be passable as a daily but I always get worried about parking these cars in public, even in broad daylight.
@@Zygrene word about parking S2000s in California. Just went down to Streets of Willow, overnight in a hotel. Wake up and see marks on my lock as if someone tried to hammer a screwdriver into it. Joke's on them my door lock was already broken.
@@itzzkittens3198 lol, I daily drove on RT 660s for the good half of 2021. 22000 miles per year. My wallet didn't thank me, neither did my ear drums.
I bought a salvage 03 that came with solid mounts and a mugen rep hardtop. Drove it last January from Oregon to Montana in winter, definitely an interesting drive. I threw Blizzaks on it to mess around in the snow from time to time and even go grocery shopping with it lol. It's not a bad car to daily drive. Luckily I don't have the theft issues like Cali does, most people don't even know what it is when they see it here.
Quarter of a century and S2000 is still ahead of its time.
237HP 4 cylinder production vehicle from late 90's is insane. 🍻
I think you have to consider the price factor as well. The resale price for the CR is insane! You can probably get a used RF + new BRZ for the price of one CR.
THIS, Awesome car sure, but like the RX7 FD Collectors and scalpers have made it just way too expensive to be worth the purchase.
As an owner of a low mileage 2007 AP2 S-2000, I can truly say that it's one of the most fun cars that I've ever owned (btw, I'm 69 yrs. old). Most of the time, I drive it like I stole it.
I work in racing and even mildly prepped S2000’s with simple aero are consistently faster than they have any right to be.
Double wishbone is underrated!
@@Zygrene I hope you will try a 4th gen VTEC Prelude one day. I own both and cornering speed is just as good. Also double wishbone front and rear but longer wheelbase. And much closer to 50/50 than 5th gen you tested.
I think they have every right to be that fast.
The S2000 is an absolute classic.
I have once driven an S2000 Mk2 and NC1 Miata back-to-back to make a buying decision between the two. My heart said S2000 but believe it or not I ended up buying the NC1.
Both were really clean low mileage examples, but the S2000 was still twice the price of the fully decked out NC1 Miata. Remember the S2000 was never really competing with Miatas in terms of price (S2000 was more in Porsche Boxter territory).
So price obviously played a part in my buying decision, but sometimes I still regret not putting down the extra cash. That S2000 felt a lot sharper and exciting.
But the reality was that I felt the Miata was way better as a daily driver, while still getting me like 80% of the fun at half the price when getting to the back roads.
Now compare an S2000 with a Porsche Boxter of the same era. As raw and fun as the S2000 is, I'm still not sure what I'd choose.
BRZ. 1) A dealer can do it for you, electronically turning off the “Active Sound Control” feature. 2) You can pop off an access panel at the end of the dash, reach in, and unplug the sound module. Noise module delete available for ND2.
A really useful and well considered review for those considering buying a new Mx5 RF or a BRZ/GR86 . The addition of the S2000 gives a great benchmark for the comparison. Thanks.
I am glad someone else finally did this test. Great video. Having spent now a unbelievable amount of time in all three any of the three cars are great in their own right.
I could probably rock with the brz as a daily but where’s the fun in having what everyone else has or will have. I like driving the competition and I like how light the ND2 is plus the open air experience. I already have a corvette with a tiny cockpit so the nd2 won’t be much different. The brz is a very nice alternative if you need more space but it just won’t deliver the same experience as the nd1&2 because of the weight difference. So for a great majority of us, this is why Miata is always the answer😁
I’m 6’2 by the way so I know about being a tight fit but it doesn’t matter to guys like myself.
Versus regular S2000, the CR also came factory equipped with rear tires sized up to 255, short throw shifter, ‘sport tuned’ exhaust, sound deadening gutted, and a chassis stiffener in place of the spare tire.
The rear tire is really just a size up the wheels are the same width as all AP2s. The CR shifter is the same as 00-09 shifters but the knob sits further down it. The exhaust is different and it does have more chassis stiffening, sway bars/shocks/springs, and an AP1 ratio steering rack with VGS.
Your chapters are kind of confusing. You have "handling" but only go over the BRZ and then you have "driving" where you only go over the ND2, and then "driving impressions" where you mainly focus on the S2k. Maybe it'd be better if you named the chapters by the cars you're referencing instead?
I own a 2014 MX 5. 30 mpg, 0 to 100 in ten seconds, no rust at six years, 61k miles. If you parked it in that line up people would say, 'what's that' it looks so different. A true roadster expression. They changed to the rear faring in 2016.
What a person is looking for out of a sports car to serve as a 2nd car is likely going to be different than were it to serve as an only car. Even then, what one person is looking for is likely to vary from what other people might be looking for. The key to purchasing not only cars, but countless other things as well, is for a person to be realistic with themselves when it comes to how they are likely going to be using it, understanding their preferences (and budget of course). I appreciate you mentioning these things.
Honestly I think it's a really simple answer for someone who's looking to buy. If it's your daily or only car, BRZ/GR 86 hands down. If it's 2nd or 3rd, then Miata if you want new or S2000 if you like old school. Can't go wrong.
I drove a used 2020 RF a couple of days ago. I am 5‘9“, 175 pounds, and found out that I could not recline the seat. It was a blast to drive, though.
A Miata as an only car can be tough depending on what other activities you're into but it, like the others are fun cars and will be light on the wallet.
Interesting how there are widely different perspectives, I've owned 2 s2000's previously, sold the second one to help pay for school, and now I'm back in the market for another RWD fun car. I had the chance to drive a stock RF GT-S 2019 ND2 on some great, very tight canyon roads and I had a blast, it's extremely forgiving and playful. However after years of driving the S2000, doing lots of canyon time in it and several track days, somehow the Miata just wasn't enough. I found the limits of the tires very quickly in it and had fun hooning around in it, but it's just not sharp enough for my tastes.
Logically the Mx-5 should win, it's new, whereas the newest S2000 you can buy is from 2009, and it would be much cheaper to maintain and upgrade the Miata.
But I find that in my mind I was chasing the S2000 level of performance in the Miata which just isn't there, especially not engine and transmission wise. I started doing a lot of research into what mods I could do to the Miata... to make it match the performance of the S2000, but in the end I'd rather take a stock s2000 over a miata that was modified to bring it up to the level of performance of a S2000. I find myself trying to logically justify why the Miata is always the answer, but a "toy" car like this is not a decision driven by logic, but passion...
Watching this video and listening to the sounds of the cars back to back... Remembering the feel of the shifter, the sound of the motor screaming at 8200 rpm... the look and functionality of the driver centric cockpit....
I think I'll be getting my 3rd S2000 after all...
Great comment and I can definitely relate, having tons of seat time in various S2000s and 3+ hours in various ND1/2 Miatas. Keep in mind the quantifiable performance of a stock ND2 is still a tad better than a stock AP2 on the same tires. But I completely agree that the subjective feel of the S2000 is still in a league of its own, which is why I (like you) keep coming back to it after all these years.
Having owned all the vehicles in this video. Clean, low mileage S2000 have joined the 987.2 Cayman S territory. In which, I rather a 987.2 Cayman S over an S2000 everyday of the week and twice on Sunday’s.
I miss s2000 i drove rsx type-s to ferrari 430' yet s2k was most fun car. It is just perfect fun car and it is not that slow in straight line either. When i srove s2k lotus elise was compitable. Ferrari was fun too but it is feel heavy and not as nimble as s2k. Now i am looking to get s2k again cuz i know i want fun car.
Rsx' s2k' g35' m3 m5 amg c63 coupe maserati gt ferrari etc out of all those car s2k was far better car to have fun. Good video very nice comments. Good overall review.
I've daily driven a ND1 RF for a month. I think it's good choice b/c the open top experience, and relatively soft damping. AP2 rides a bit more rougher and the engine feels more lively. Oddly I never drove a BRZ (not even the 1st gen) ...
Not missing out on much. BRZ was probably the most disappointing car I have ever owned. My shitty old NA MX5 with 400,000kms feels more satisfying to drive.
New BRZ seems a lot better. But now its got the issue of looking ugly and fake engine noise. Simply cant win. I will stick with my NC3 MX5 and Porsche Cayman. (I love the ND MX5, but it has no passenger legroom)
@@ForgetfulFoot I feel the previous BRZ/FRS/GT86 were ugly, and childish looking, while now they look more upscale, refined, and better looking.
@@ForgetfulFoot got a 19 BRZ and totally agree! It's soulless imo..
The high screaming VTEC and Honda shifter gearbox. Your right on the money Fenton, Honda’s MT gearbox is just pure magic.
It just never gets old!
@@Zygrene I know right I’ve had several 8th Gen Si’s, CL9 TSX, now GD3 I just love now Honda manual gearbox is consistent just the right clutch pedal feedback and throw.
As an s2000 owner this makes me very happy. What a car Honda built.
Nice review and breakdown of each car. I like how you described their characteristics and how they could suit different tastes rather than just an outright "this one is the best". I think the thing that I'm most excited about is the fact that we have both the ND2 and gr86/BRZ options at around $30k, and when you consider how much an AP2 was when new the value is amazing.
I like your review on each car. All of them are fun to drive. To me is a matter of taste, comfort and personal background. My background is mostly on race cars and race karts, thus my preference is the S2000. Also, being that I'm not tall nor fat I fit perfectly in it. Kudos!
BRZ/86 are super nice and perfect as a daily as you said, it can definitely be your single car! (although maybe having a second truck/big suv, even old ones will probably comes handy)
ND2 is so light and also pretty daily driveable imo, is also my favourite aesthetically speaking, you'll have a problem only when you'll need to carry more than one person and if you need to carry a lot of stuff. Let's be real: is hard and probably impossible at one point to live only with a miata, you should buy it a second car, this is the hard truth :'(
The S2000 (I consider only the AP1) as of today is still the best honda ever made (IMO) and is also basically an investment if you care... Its biggest "flaw" is being old. Nothing else. Oh and costing 30k today is another problem I guess..... You can daily drive it probably for a week then you will probably want to drive something else, and it's fine like this. You should enjoy your S2k on weekends! So this makes it the perfect second or third car (if you're rich).
So what do I think?
There is one GIANT problem: I WANT THEM ALL 😫
love to get some tips from you on brake pad/fluid upgrades - I get my BRZ in April and its the first sports car i've had in 30-35 years. Looking forward to all the fun things to do with it.
Depends if its staying on street or going to the track. PMU club racer pads are great, I've used these on both street and track with good results. Prestone fluid is fine for street, it also will work for track but PMU fluid is worth it's price if you track often. 22' BRZ will be ready for track in a few days.
I'll address this question in the next ZCT podcast!
@@Zygrene is that here on TH-cam or somewhere else?
Carbotech AEx6 pads with ATE Super Blue Dot 4 fluid.
The smile on your face in the s2000 tells you everything you need to know. Plus 20 years older.
Good job with this video. At this point, I like the ND2 Miata the best out of these three (and I own an AP2 S2000!).
The S2000 is the GOAT.
I’m not sure where to begin…
Piped in sound from the speakers, not even touching that. It’s just too easy. Overall sounds like the ND2 is the best, even based on your own experience. Congrats on your purchase dude & I get that you are partial to BRZ’s being you just laid out a bunch of bucks on one but come on dude. Really???
The steering in the ND2 is better not because it’s a lighter car (although that does play in), it’s because it has real suspension up font and not some McPherson strut off of a SUV. If you don’t like the “wiggle” in the MX5 then turn the traction control off and play all you like (it will).
The S2000 as great as it is, is impractical to daily. We all know this. The BRZ is the outlier here, average at best in most everything even after spending money on suspension and the top doesn’t even go down. Not even a sunroof available… Really it’s just a “hot hatch” dressed in sport clothes. It’s only redemption is RWD with a so/so manual. May as well buy a Civic or Golf…
Moral to the story is just get a MX5 ND2 and be done with it. The best of a BRZ and S2000 in one package. Daily it, track it, mountain road it, road trip it or all. I do.
Curious where you are now a year later…
Super excited to watch. Love my ND1 and definitely feel like upgrading to the ND2 lately. Don't find myself missing my S2000 anymore, like how the ND is more friendly everyday.
Hair dresser lol.
@@jaydems2k10tough talk from an AP1 owner 🧐
@@tealruby1 h a i r d r e s s e r
@@jaydems2k10 oh shut up
Smile on your face when you drove the best roadster ever made said all we need to know.
S2k all day! Lol all three are amazing, but it definitely is nice to have a new car with a warranty! Great vid, would love to see a track review in the future with this same lineup
S2000 was literally double the price of both of these cars when it was new where I live. I rate the S2000 much higher as a pure sports car over the 86/BRZ and MX5.
That's something a lot of these posts don't seem to understand, with inflation the MSRP of a 2000, S2000 was over 50,000 USD at the time.
Also tip to fix the understeer without replacing the suspension is run 0deg toe on all four corners
Great video. You should have mentioned the price of the S2000CR when new, adjusted for inflation, is $48.2k ($36.3k end of 2007)... compared to the other two of about $30k new. Which shows how technology has advanced to the point where you can afford a new car as nice as an s2000 for $30k, where 20years ago, you could not. Obviously an s2000 has held it's value well... but who's going to garage an s2000CR and rarely drive it so you can keep it from depreciation... some sucker, I guess.
A new RF MX5 Club is $39215 today with 180hp lmfao
S2000 CR crushes itand can hold 803whp on stock block - the Miatas engine would blow uo around half of that.
You get what you pay for.
First off, what Money Talks said. Second, only idiot rich collectors buy a CR. Just get a normal one and put a wing on it and remove the AC. Congrats, you have a CR for half the price.
@@TheFK8Life I doubt anyone looking at these 3 cares about how much power a stock block can handle lol
@@SuperJuicebox24 Why buy a sports car to leave stock? Stock block S2000s are running 9s@146+ .....bolt-on S2000s are breaking records in street rwd classes for time attack well under 2 minutes there with minimal mods
The whole point of a momentum rwd 2L 3cyl car is handling and the S2000 has proven itself with lap times that crush the other two.
Its why S2000s appreciate in value and you can buy a 2013 BRZ for cheap
@@TheFK8Life I own a low miles S2000 and I don't care about how much power the stock block can handle since the stock differential and transmission will eventually fail with over 450whp. I personally don't want to deal with that headache. If the stock trans and differential could hold power like a Supra, I would turbo my S2000.
All three cars are fantastic. My choice would be the Miata since it's the most fun to drive and find it to be the most attractive. Especially the RF.
I bought my ND2 last week, unfortunately within a period of 7 days rostered at work. I had three days off, and on both days I just went out and drove it on all of the twisty roads I could find and managed to go through a tank of fuel lol. The third day it was raining all day... Back at work, day 6 of 6 tomorrow and am praying for good weather to take it out again for a drive. Such a fun car.
I've owned an AP1 and AP2 s2k. By far one of the most raw fun to drive cars I have ever owned, would love to get a clean low mileage one for a second car. Back to the vid you nailed the s2k shifter. It's buttery smooth yet perfectly mechanical and loves to be shifted at high revs with a -snic-
Tons of low milage ones on the market.
ap1 or ap2 if you have to choose?
@@mrlee4579 I had an early AP1 with the plastic rear window the non-revised suspension vs my 2005 AP2. Honestly they were both really fun to drive but I would probably go for an AP1 with a glass rear window.
I can't believe the S2K is still apart of these convos. It's been more than 10 years since they were last made. Says something about late 90's & 00's Honda engineering.
Says something about a car that had an MSPR of 50,000 USD with inflation compared to cars with 30k. 20,000 USD makes up a lot of difference in aftermarket parts. Let alone from factory comparisons in design.
Remember Miata averages 35 on freeway with some getting close to 40 on long highway driving
I totally thought that was a creative pan/dolly move at 19:55 😄 That guy needs to be hired as your cameraman. Here's to happy accidents...
Great to get your take on these three. This is another one I've been waiting for.
crazy that honda used to build vehicles almost 2 decades ago that vehicles today are still trying to catch up to.
The S2K may be the best but at it's current price point it's just not worth it. I've seen CRs go for 40k-60k this is a 20 year old car. There's just no way that would be a smart business decision when you can get a very low miles or brand new BRZ, GR86, or ND.
I foresaw the ending. I'm driving my CR this weekend for all the racecar lovers out there.
Another really great video! Really happy to see these three vehicles out, and being compared like this! I'm really hoping to pick up (Most likely the BRZ) someday soon, to finally get a taste of RWD.
The S 2000 is a blast to drive. After watching this video I have even more appreciation for what Honda accomplished. In a very short time the politicians will have everyone driving electric. People will be watching videos like this to remember what freedom looked and sounded like.
Nice video. The S2000 was released 23 years ago, the fact that other Japanese car companies are just barely figuring out how to almost reach the S2000 performance is crazy.
Sidenote, if you are looking at any of these 3 cars and thinking you can't afford them or don't want to go into that much debt, check out the BMW 128i. The inline 6 is amazing, and fairly reliable (for a BMW). You'll get great power delivery, 6 speed manual option, great engine note (especially with headers), and you can get a bit more power with a 3 stage intake manifold and tune. But the best part is they are only 7k-10k. The few issues they do have are well documented and fairly easy to do yourself. I'd recommend the sport package/sport seats. Only car I've driven that comes close to the S2000.
No, it's that the for example the BRZ is 28-32k MSRP, the S2000 MSRP adjusted for inflation was 48-52k USD.
The S2000 CR had an MSRP with inflation adjustment to today of 58-60K USD. Literally twice the price of a 2022 BRZ. It's not that they are just barely figuring it out. It's that it's become affordable to make available to the general public at half the price.
@@AthenaAutocross My thoughts exactly. These dumb people who say that the BRZ/ND2s are 'finally' keeping up to the 20 year old S2k never seem to realise that the S2k costed almost Porsche Boxster money. The fact that people like MediocreMan expect a $30k BRZ/ND2 to have capabilities of a $60k Porsche 718 Boxster is so stupid.
Have you only driven 2 cars?
That smile on the face when driving the S2k, I can relate so much. Still nothing in its class comes close. Best regards from a fellow S2k owner from Germany. :-)
Well, my AP1 is winterized and been hibernating in the garage… she might get a rude awakening tomorrow after this video 🤦🏾♂️🤣
Caw caw! I've been debating slapping my car across the face to wake it up for a quick winter stroll too. Wish me luck
I've driven a AP2 s2000 and daily drove a 6 speed nd2 soft top club for 18 months. The ND2 peak torque comes on much earlier than the S2000, which made it decent to daily drive. The AP2 is a better toy/track car, but they're not worth the price used when you can get a NEW ND2. The only problem with the miata is the body roll. With full sway bars, the car changes completely and I'd argue is better than the S2000. I miss that car everyday but I just didn't fit in it. I have a short torso and the way the seats work, it has basically no adjustment other than sliding on a descending rail. I'm looking at a Camaro SS 1LE now, but the new BRZ/86 has peaked my interest. A big V8 won't be as nimble in the canyons, but I was surprised with the Camaro's handling and performance.
You could enhance the suspension of the s2k and it would pull away from the miata again
My third video of yours and I'm hooked. You have a common sense approach to your observations and discussion. I have found myself fully engaged and wanting to hear your next comment and/or assertion.
I just purchased and am awaiting the delivery of a '23 BRZ premium and can't wait. I've found your discussion of yours to be very interesting and informative. Growing up in the Bay Area, i thought some of the roads you driving looked remotely familiar. I look forward to viewing more of your content while I wait for my BRZ to be delivered. (BTW ... I'm a new sub) Cheers and safe tracking ... Dave
I've got offset strut tops on my BRZ, more caster, gives dynamic camber up front and a little heavier steering feel. Feels sweet but I don't do any autocross or anything. It would probably bump you up do the modified category.
Thank you for your entertaining comparison of three highly dissimilar cars. Their differences make any attempt at comparison pointless, but it was fun watching you drive them in the twisties and listen to your spontaneous comments in real time.
The BRZ is not a sports car, it is a sport coupe. Its mission is entirely different from the other two cars. Nevertheless it handles well enough to be fun on a back road, and so could serve as a daily driver for a young family, able to meet everyone's needs, including Dad's when he wants to do an occasional track day.
The Club version of the Miata has plenty of bling, with brand-name Brembo, BBS, Recaro, and Bilstein components (some at extra cost), placing the car in a special category -- but in reality more a cosmetic than a performance package. To compete at virtually any level of Miata racing, and there are many, the brakes, suspension, wheels, and tires must be upgraded. For this reason, experienced Miata racers will order the base Sport, which most Miata buyers are not even aware of because the dealers steer them toward the more luxurious GT or the sportier Club, both costing several thousand more than the Sport.
While most Club owners who want to compete will have to ditch their expensive Bilsteins and Brembos for more competition-oriented shocks and brakes, the Sport owner can invest some of the several thousand saved by not going for a Club into a full suspension setup, fine-tuned to his driving style. Same with the wheels, tires, and brakes.
The Miata is the only true sports car of this threesome because its top goes down. Well, sort of. That electric targa top is intended for the "cute-car" Miata community, who make up nearly half its owner base. To these folks, being seen behind the wheel of a Miata means that like the car, you too are sexy and stylish. For them, Mazda offers not just the targa top, but a very good automatic transmission, pastel paint jobs, luxury interior trim packages, dual-zone AC, and other options you'd never expect on a sports car. That's because to these owners it's a sports car in name only.
If the above has to some resulted in the Miata being a "girlie car," that's okay because all those buyers have financed not only the Miata's survival, but its refinement over three decades. While offering the baubles that attract the fashionista market, Mazda made sure the underlying car remains true to its mission as a sports car. For the price of a Mazda3 econobox, you can buy a genuine performance car with all-aluminum wishbone suspension, a close-ratio six-speed manual (no overdrive), and a naturally aspirated engine that incorporates race technology to lighten reciprocating parts, improve breathing, enhance fuel flow, and withstand a 13:1 compression ratio.
Mazda deliver the car in a mild state of tune, and that's what makes it so appealing to so many demographics. Many owners will leave their Miata completely stock and consider it a perfect sports car for their Sunday drives. For those who want more performance, a huge aftermarket awaits. If you want, you can own a 500-horsepower Miata, legal in all 50 states.
Honda, on the other hand, bet their money on performance and driver engagement from the get-go, and it delivers the goods with the least compromise of these three. Including the competition model in this comparison is unfair to the Mazda, because Honda's version, hard top included, is for hard-core racers. Only 200 of these were delivered to the American market in 2008.
Even the regular S2000's purity of purpose as a driver's car ultimately led to its doom. Lacking the Miata's broad appeal, the S2000 never sold anywhere near the numbers Honda was expecting. Despite refinements and a loyal owner base, the hard truth was that performance-oriented sports car driving is dying out everywhere, and unlike Mazda, Honda had no other market to sell the S2000 to.
And so we have three highly dissimilar cars, their only commonality being that they are fun to drive on twisty roads. If you are a performance-oriented driver, one of them will stand out for you. That is the one to buy.
They are very similar, not the same but similar.
This is the first vid I've seen of yours and just want to say I really liked the review, you touched on all the points I was curious about, and you're very well spoken, excellent job! Looking forward to more
Got and ND1 RF right now with a BRZ on order. I had a 2014 BRZ before the RF. I agree that the ND is a car that is fun at 5/10ths and that’s because it’s relative softness means that it moves around more. Every control input creates weight transfer. The ND gets ragged on the limit though.
This matches up with my experience perfectly.
Exactly. Take a look at one lap heroes review of the Miata who is probably one of the few chanels out there that are honest about it. I felt the same way when I owned my ND2. It was not confidence inspiring around corners at all. I preferred my Brz TS much better.
@@C_Suarez The ND out of the box is setup as a fun road car. It’s not setup (out of the box) for track work, so if that’s why you are buying it, you’ll definitely need to mod it. As a “fun road car”, it’s brilliant…which is what it was designed to be. And it takes mods well. The BRZ/86 is definitely a better track car out of the box. But it’s a more “serious” car and as a road car, it’s doesn’t quite have the ND’s sense of fun.
I absolutely loved this review. I have owed a BRZ and raced in Targa and Vinland Motorsports events. My brother bought an ND1. I love my NC brilliant black. Cheers
Like the comparo. The S2000 cost around $34,000 in 2001. It's really a class above both of these cars but all three are fun to drive. It's too bad other manufacturers don't have a light weight, rwd option. Chevy and Nissan both cancelled theirs.
I was just thinking of Chevy's Code 130 R and Nissan's IDx concepts, both of which were canceled after being teased to enthusiasts as affordable 1 Series (BMW) alternatives. Missed opportunities... Looking forward to Fenton's drive of the new Z, although I'm still hoping Nissan steps up with a new Silvia/240sx down the line.
If you don't mind, please share the location of the road that was used in this video. The scenery is beautiful.
My all time favorite review video 😍
@@subatomicmolecules I already knew it was gonna be gud
Great video
Ive driven s2000 and I found it a bit scary at the limit as it tends to oversteer aggressively and not as progressively as I would like. Perhaps the CR model solves they issue. I found that I prefer the handling characteristics of E36 M3 to it. I owned a well sorted Miata NC and I found it to be predictable and friendly at the limit. I do have you say that the transmission and engine are amazing in the s2000. I didn't really enjoy the steering due to lack of communication.
The S2000 definitely is tricky to drive at the limit but very rewarding when you get it right. BRZ is much more forgiving. Probably closer to the E36.
Did you drive an AP1 (1999-2003 model) or an AP2 (2004-2009)?
The earlier model AP1 was notorious for aggressive oversteer. The AP2 has much better handling.
@@xXUnoriginalNameXx33Meygaera it was ap2 - it was a bit twitchy at the limit, it could have been down to the tires and the suspension set up though. NC Miata with a dialed in suspension made me feel like a driving God, while ap2 made me mostly cautious.
I rolled on a few s2k runs in Oregon with the club up here just as a passenger to shoot photos. They def can swap sides; We were coming around a good 35 mph turn and one guy was facing us. Funny and thank god it was early a rural road with few vehicles. They def can bite especially on public roads with all the unanticipated variables that come with it! My 370z is a plow horse even with a front swaybar change and mild camber, so, I don't get to "play" as much, but it's "enough" for public roads... I still think Porsche is the end game vehicle, having spent some time with the PCA members at the track, most of them started in lower power vehicles like miatas and some older bmws....
I would never pay $30,000 for a twenty year old s2000 with probably 200,000 miles on it. It even looks worn out from the video. Also this is the first time ever on a road test someone has ever chosen an s2000 over the max-5 for the shifter. Strange.
I've owned an 08 CR delete since new. Between the lack of AC/radio and removing the top mine comes in at a tick below 2,700 pounds, which inches it even closer to the featherweight ND2. Hands down the best car I've ever owned and even better once the top is removed.
I'll trade you my Geo Metro for it
thats 400 lbs heavier with an AC/ radio delete
Keep that damn car forever
@@Zygrene Yeah I love this thing. I wouldn't trade it for an S2000. I was just joshin.
@@guiltyspark652 And 500-pounds lighter than what's considered lightweight today, so it's all relative. But yeah, the ND2 is a featherweight. It's a Lotus with reliability.
This is the exact video I needed! Thank you, I’m looking for my next project car for track use so S2K, GR86 and MX5 ND are all in contention! Great content 👍🏻
Seems as though the BRZ ticks many boxes. Good power, handling and driving experience without sacrificing space. Owned an ND1, have driven an S2000. They're purpose built cars. I feel like the BRZ gives just that bit of flexibility to do a grocery run, or rip to Home Depot and still hit the turns on weekends. Would love to hear about real world MPG.
Fuel economy is their biggest weakness. I don't know real figures bit even Subaru's own numbers aren't great.
I have driven an AP1 and for the money I went with a brand new ST ND2 club BBR. If you go to the track, I understand the appeal of the S2000. Driving the car around town, the AP1 engine needs to be revved more (low torque), and seems to have a lot of squeaks and rattles. Surprisingly, the ND2 rides better, less harsh, and I just love how fast I can take the top down. The Bose sound system is useable and decent for a top down car plus a new car warranty can't hurt. Didn't care much on the Toyobaru since its not a convertible and my ND2 is just a weekend car. Everybody else's miles may vary. Get whatever floats your boat.
Everytime you drop a s2000 video I feel like I bought the wrong car lol
This was like driving in the back mountains online. Thanks Man
I also have owned three S2Ks and I miss them. What a fantastic engineering job Honda did, for a platform that is going on 20 years (for the AP2) and for it to still exceed new sports cars is a testament to the passion that went into it. I hope Honda does not redo it. Just leave it a classic.
Supercharged AP1 S2000 to 407whp is insane. This might be my next venture. LHT is the only way!
I always found these video super informative, you touch/discuss all the important things when you review these cars. Thank you. keep it up!
It sounded like he was about to burst into tears of joy while in the S2k.
Not sure your comment re the first gen BRZ coming with Primacy "All Season" tires is correct. Mine is a '17 Ltd with Perf. Pack and OEM tires are the Primacy, but they are summer performance, not all-season. I have to run winter tires to cope with the cold winter temperatures. Anyway, nice reviews. Nice to have reviews by someone who really knows how to drive and wring out these cars, and dig out the more subtle differences. Would be fun to see a comparo with an older gen BRZ too. Interesting that the dyno is showing Subaru apparently sandbagged the numbers. Looking forward to driving one. I test drove a '16 Miata before I bought the BRZ and a couple things stood out. 1. It was really loud on the interstate - even at 60 mph, top up or down. 2. With the seating position, height of doors, rear seats, etc, it felt more like a T-top than convertible. 3. There is nowhere to put stuff in the cockpit if you have a passenger. Coats, purses, etc can only go in the footwell or trunk. Even if my BRZ backseats are small, I can put coats, hats, purses, etc back there. Some of the old old gen sports cars had a little area behind the seats. I think there is a hidden cubby behind the Miata driver's seat, but you have to be out of the car to get to it. That said, I did have to applaud the person I saw at Costco in a Miata with the passenger side stuffed full of Costco stuff. Way to make it work! (Of course his wife, whom he left in the store, was likely not nearly as impressed! LOL)
Loved your video, nice and straightforward. What road is that mate?
What a great review! It's really good to see such an informed objective opinion on these vehicles especially considering that you have "skin in the game" as a BRZ owner. You haven't made my midlife crisis any easier though! Honda sound and gearbox?
The practicality and grunt of the BRZ? The true to sports car philosophy and so, so nice styling of the Mazda?
I guess the ute (I'm Australian) will have to do for now. Then again... my Wife needs a new car...?
Great job and an enjoyable watch. I’d be thrilled to own any of these three with a slight preference for the Miata.
I love how people call 200hp a small amount of power, people have bern brainwashed by the hp race, the gt86 is an amazing car and i’m sad that people only look at hp numbers
This is nothing new. Aside from the fuel crisis years, car buyers have almost always been enamored with more horsepower in this country. Most only care about straight line performance, so a car like the GT 86 is a disappointment to them. This has pretty much always been true of affordable sports cars. Buyers interested in a good balance between handling and power have been in decline for decades. Leaving so few choices when it comes to such cars.
Great video. Where is this back road? Looks like an amazing cruise. Keep up the good work Zygrene!
Have had a 13 Club Spec and an 18 Abarth. NC was my only vehicle for 5 years. Moderate snow was fine once you ditched the awful stock tires for decent all seasons. For a mid 20 something with no kids it was fine. Both cars sucked on long trips. They are loud. The NC seats killed your lower back after an hour. Both are very tiring on long drives. Noise is part of it, but with them tracking the road and very responsive to steering inputs requires paying more attention. Unless you have kids or need to haul large things there is no reason you cannot daily them. Trunk is big enough for costco runs. Both were cheap/reliable/fun cars.
At this point I upgraded to a truck due to hobbies and fixing up a house. Sold the abarth for a viper which is not something I would recommend as a daily.
Great feedback.. I've driven the ND2 RF, previously owned a 1st gen BRZ and currently own a CR and couldn't agree more. Really need to try the new BRZ/GR86!
I love all of them, but that S2000 is just an engineering miracle. My God.
Hey Zygrene, if you were to throw the Lotus Elise into the mix, how would you sort of place it or consider it against the GR86? I'm coming from an ND2 Miata that I've tracked ~5 times. Fortunately I don't need a daily driver, but it would be a small plus. Elise's can be found for $35k, so pretty much same OTD price as a premium GR! The only thing worrying me about the lotus is I'd say I'm beginner to intermediate on track experience. What are your thoughts? Thanks!
Funny thing actually, I've also commented on your past posts asking about advice before I bought the ND2! Been there and since sold it. Thankfully covid used car prices meant I didn't lose much.
Watching this space..
I own a NA, love the ND chassis, and helped a good friend drive a '06 Elise S with the 1ZZ and Nitron shocks back from UK. The most impressive thing about the Lotus is high speed corners, you feel the flat floor and diffuser starting to work there and that's something you don't get with any stock Miata. Now, with about 140hp, it's virtually impossible to break traction with the Elise, and stock, it has narrower front tyres. At 5/10, it's fun, at 9 - 10/10, it's great, but at like 7 - 8/10, there's a good chance you experience some understeer in low - mid speed corners. Basically, the front wants to be loaded, so you need to brake late and hard to make it turn (the brakes are great btw). So the strat is hard on the brakes into turn in to make the car rotate / slide a bit, then stomp the throttle once the car is facing the right direction to plant the rear back in and catapult out of the turn (throttle is actually a grip switch there, it's crazy). It's not for the faint hearted, but it's quite satisfying when you get it right. I know some people fit wider front wheels and tyres to reduce the front / rear thread width difference, haven't had experience with that setup though.
One drawback with the Elise is the bodywork : front is one piece, same for the rear, and it's fiber, so any cosmetic damage can become quite expensive really quickly. And some OEM parts are hard to get because they're made on order. A cyclist crashed into my friend's Elise, the car was stopped, cyclist looked behind while going downhill and swerved into the car. Whole front mask and drver side headlight had to be replaced (as well as the upper control arm) : car got immobilized for more than a year because there was no headlight in stock. He didn't have to pay for the repairs, but if you parallel park it and someone just leans too much on your front end while backing up, you can end up with a 2.5k repair bill fairly quickly. Once you move past bodywork though, mechanical stuff is fine, especially if looking at Toyota engine versions, maintenance and repair costs will be reasonable.
TL;DR : an Elise is great, but I think it requires a very good driver who's not afraid to go full out to really appreciate it (although that can be an excuse to learn). Daily driving capability is not good, trunk storage will cook your groceries, and you really don't want to parallel park it.
@@gt4lex While the S1 1ZZ Elise input is great, the performance of the Federal 2ZZ S2 Elise is another level and hopefully @Zygrene could comment on that as he has piloted them versus the S1.
@@tvrduude First off, the S1 Elise all had Rover K engines. Lotus switched away from those to Toyota engines in the middle of the S2 life cycle (a change to the rear suspension design was also made at this time). The car I drove is a S2 and litterally the exact same as a 111R, chassis and brakes wise, the only differences are the engine and gearbox (1ZZ Elise got the 5 speed vs the 6 speed that is common to the MR-S and both 1ZZ and 2ZZ T23 Celicas in EU). It will have the same dynamic balance as a federalized 111R.
Also, I know the difference between the 1ZZ and the 2ZZ, and I really don't think it's enough to break traction in normal grip conditions. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if the 2ZZ brought more understeer when applying full throttle too early, although I don't think you would really feel much diference at all since the 1ZZ is only stronger at the top of the RPM range.
Oh, my observations were made on new AD08R tyres btw.
@@gt4lex My bad, stating the S1 versus the S2 you said. I would agree the chassis dynamics should be similar, but I would tend to think the extra 40+ hp would make a decent difference. However, being in the USA, I have no readily accessible way to comparea 1ZZ to 2ZZ S2 Elise.
I'll just have to be happy with the S240 Exige and 05 S2 Elise I do have...
Very nice video, well done! Where did you test the car?
RX8 also seems like a good comparison for this category.
Great video Zygrene! I was wondeering if the new Twins BRZ/86 comes with a spare tire. Also i been wondering how that NFC works... is it for quicker connection to the cars AA/Carplay?
S2000 is still the bench mark after all these years
I think this review was very fair, i'll still get a GR because i'm too tall for an ND2 and S2000 here are so expensive ! I don't have enough money to buy have two cars so i need that daily drivability. And man, who doesn't like a daily dose of drifting ?
This is a simple but genuinely good video and a genuinely good review! Good job!!! I subscribed.