Interviewer:"why did you show little to no concern or regret for the 80% that died because of your plan?" Knuckles:"They knew what they signed up for..."
"The rookie is our only hope now" Knuckles....., please think about what you just said. You most seasoned forces have been wiped out and your ONLY HOPE is a Rookie...... you are a terrible commander.
Knuckles is not a leadership-type character, he's generally a loner and stated to be awkward in social situations sometimes. (It's not that he couldn't be one, but when you think of a person giving orders or coming up with plans, Amy, Rouge, Tails or Vector are the first to come to mind. It felt Knuckles was chosen for marketing purposes. If he was like, a motivator or in charge of training the rookies, something that IS his skillset, it'd do wonders for his character and the plot) What happened in Forces made him look incompetent, rather than the resistance dealing with a hard blow from Infinite. (Who also has a can of worms himself)
I love your idea actually. Knuckles being the one to train people and motivate people on and off the battlefield is right up his alley. He's like a general you'd use not so much a commander you'd have organizing plans and strategies.
You know who would be perfect for the role of commander? Vector. He's an experienced leader, clever, and doesn't just charge ahead to bash every problem in front of him.
He could have worked, if they made him a Caesar akin to Fallout New Vegas where he trained people for anything and utilized traditional battle tactics he learned from his youth.
I find out from other youtube shadow was not a edgy lord at all and this is what we did to shadow . And tails was ruin by sonic team It got to hell for them
To be fair, Amy did elaborate on Knuckles' leadership in the IDW Comics. Knuckles is great at rallying others. However, Amy was the real brains behind the scenes and she was the one who kept things organized. I gotta say though, seeing Amy working on computers makes me think of her carrying around an AI on a handheld computer...
And that's why IDW Sonic reckoned things and made Amy Rose the new leader and organizer even before Knuckles disbanded the resistance. It was their way of telling Sonic Team that Amy should have been the leader from the start and not Knuckles since his character isn't really a people's person like Amy Rose is since he lives alone on Angel Island. Plus in IDW Sonic, Knuckles wasn't seen as a threat on equal par with Sonic by Neo Metal Sonic, Amy was by the end of issue 1 of IDW Sonic. That's why Neo Metal Sonic plotted and lured out both Sonic and Amy in an effort to kill them both at the same time in one ambush in issue 2. Plus the loss of 80% of the resistance was brought up in issue 15 when Amy was explaining to Sonic how they lost a lot of good members of the resistance during the war and Sonic comforted and encouraged her.
Amy had a history of immaturity and recklessness. She's an even worse choice. The only game where she remotely shows good leadership skills is Heroes, and even then, it's not much.
When Wolfie showed the clip of Shadow fighting the clones with the caption "what is this man doing?" I immediately cracked up! That was freaking hilarious and it's pretty much true because Shadow wasn't punching or kicking any of them, he was kinda just sliding through them like he was ice skating
I miss knuckles being relevant and I feel like knuckles should be around sonic's level of power since he is sonic's polar opposite. Since knuckles is the last echidna sega should have always kept him in the spotlight along with sonic since he is special!
Knuckles should be stronger than sonic, I hate how segas making sonic”the best” in every thing he does and it would fit better with Sonics team Sonics speed, knuckles is strength and tails is brain
@Revived Mo No knuckles is sonic's polar opposite. Both sonic and knuckles originally have completely opposite personalities. Sonic is all about adventure, living life on the edge, and plainly not following the rules. Knuckles is the exact opposite by wanting to stay in one place and guard the master emerald. Shadow is way too similar to sonic. Also speed isn't everything, Knuckles has skills too that can match sonic. They have more battles where when they fight it becomes a draw.
Knuckles should be stronger than Sonic but he is not. Knuckles also is in no way the polar opposite of Sonic and as soon as his arc in Sonic Adventure was wrapped up that was not the case. While Sonic does love Adventure, after Sonic Adventure, Knuckles learned to lighten up and not stay only guarding the Master Emerald, also, Knuckles in the games has only ever canonically beaten Sonic once, while Sonic has defeated him numerous times. Knuckles can’t be Sonics polar opposite since after the Adventure games, he joins Sonic against many of his adventures like he did in Sonic Heroes when he had no need to or even in the game being mentioned in this video (Sonic Forces) when he’s leading the resistance instead. Sonics polar opposite is Shadow because Shadow is always doing a job while Sonic only ever does what he wants and loves free. Also Shadow, unlike Knuckles, has actually beaten or matched Sonic multiple times. He also beat Silver who when first introduced, was originally more powerful than Sonic. I agree that Knuckles shouldn’t be a bumbling idiot like how the games have portrayed him the last decade and they should take notes from how the Sonic movie sequel seems to show him as an actual powerful character and that it should be highlighted that his power is equivalent to Sonics speed but in strength but the fact is that this hasn’t been the case in the long time. And even if it was, he could never touch Sonic in theory because Sonic is too fast for him now that he has a good grasp on his powers
Even IDW comics makes a reference about Knuckles' skills as a leader, in the first moment that he could return to Angel's Island he did just that leaving everything to Amy resolve which ironic was his best idea as commander
Man, I've never noticed this, it's passed off so nonchalantly that hundreds of resistance fighters were killed that it's not even noticeable. It's not even funny. Wtf.
I think everyone was best in Adventure 2, Knux and Miles especially. What happened to serious Knuckles and brave Tails, the little fox who could? Ok maybe not so much Tails for gameplay (what with confined to the mech). SA1 was the best for that. Hopefully in the next mainline game when they bring back the others as playable characters, for the first time in 14 years, they look to SA1 and let Tails run (and fly) wild and free. Because as the old saying goes: let Tails run (and fly) wild and free.
As someone who tried not to take this game seriously at all, I always found this bit super funny How did no one object to a strategy that was thought out in a minute and a half How was everyone still cool with Knuckles being commander after most of their army gets fucking annihilated How is Knuckles himself so casual about all the blood he has on his hands Who even let Knuckles be the commander to begin with Why not someone much smarter like Tails? Or just anyone else with more than two braincells since Tails had “lost it”. Idk man this game is weird
Knuckles is supposed to be naïve, he was alone for a long time, that's why Eggman dupes him a lot. He's not supposed to be the dumbest....... At least when Boom did it, it was funny. They did him dirty here.
Probably the only thing in the game that made me laugh was the fact that he was so smug and sure of his strategy, only for the “80% of our forces have been wiped out”. Really dark and I’m well aware that it isn’t meant to be funny but I mocking the game
Sega never give knuckles any love to knuckles after Sonic advantage 2. People keep making knuckles looks more foolish after that I'm a shame how Sega let him go a waste Wolfie.😰
You know, had Ben Hurst (if he were still alive) written this he could have written a much better story for Robotnik's rise and explain just how eighty percent of the Resistance was wiped out-and they would have shown it in some form...
@@SGWolfie eh, even then it's a very mixed bag I'd say. On one hand, Eggman's PA announcements in-game are great and full of sometimes corny, sometimes dark humor and those really fits Eggman's character and are by far the game's highlight in writing. On the other hand, every cutscene with Sonic and Tails feel stale and drags on way too long trying to make bad jokes for 5 years old while doing nothing but stand around.
I agree I feel like if your going to make Knuckles a leader of a group of freedom fighters or something like that have him lead a small team. Case in point the chaotix like in the Archie comics where Knuckles was the leader of his own small power house team. In the comics the Chaotix were pretty much "The Wreckers" of the Sonic Universe a team of crazy strong power houses that were called if the freedom fighters needed the backup or do a suicide mission.
To me Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles are not the people you have make the strategist for the team. they are the people you put on the field on get things done. Tails, Rouge, Vector, and Amy would are the best choices for commanders.
I did some pseudo-intellectual googling (always fun) and assuming Knuckles has the rank of Lieutenant General the casualty count is anywhere from 16,000 to 32,000 (assuming the Resistance has a sizable military force)
Well to be fair, Knuckles had quit the resistance and put Amy in charge so he could go back to Angel Island before the Virus outbreak happened. The metal virus isn't his fault there.
Ah yes. Someone else who has called significant attention to that scene. What were they thinking when writing this game man? First the added dialogue about torture, then this.
im so pissed off from what they made knuckles out to be. he used to be an amazing character and now he's just a total joke. knuckles seems to have been washed out, along w operation big wave. i actually bought sonic forces about a week ago and i was already mortified at tails begging for a presumed dead sonic to save him as he whimpered and shook in the corner. knuckles just made me realize why the game was on sale for 10 bucks on the ps4 store 💀
Battle result: Numerous casualties. On this day, many women and children lost their husbands and fathers in a pointless, ill-planned assault General Knuckles: Bazinga
Gotta love how some of theore toxic fan belly ache over Amy being the leader of the Resistance by claiming that it's "out of character" or "making her a discount Sally", and yet absolutely nobody calls attention to the fact that Knuckles being in charge led to half of their forces getting wiped out over a strategy he thought of in a minute and a half. The hypocrisy is just staggering.
By all that happen in the writting, I don´t even know if "wipped out" mean that they are actually death, maybe just... trapped? xd I don´t know, this is the thing that I notice that happen often in shows, like I don´t known, Trollhunters? "the last one was dismembered limb by limb", for one side there are "PG" implications but in a story that is not PG so they can´t show it and it ended like a (in Forces case) "Well... people are dying in horrific ways... I-I guess? =
This is extreme insulting. Yet Sega still to this day hasn't learn there lesson. I get it they had to down size the company but come on what the fuck this is careless.
Because he's the leader of the Resistance. This was his plan. And it resulted in over 80% of their forces lost. That's more than a strategic error, that is strategic failure. Knuckles is not a good leader.
Hey Archie Sonic characters actually thought long and hard about their strategies to prevent slaughters like this. even in the absolute worst parts of Archie Sonic no one was ever this dumb.
When you look at the original Japanese script with the correct subtitles, I can only wonder the actual line was. Because Sonic was never tortured and Tails never lost it in the Japanese dub. And just another example of the localization screwing things up, get a load of this little beauty from Team Sonic Racing with Sonic's "trash talking" compared to what he actually says when you play it in Japanese. www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/comments/igyf1x/forget_baldy_mcnosehair_if_ever_there_was_an/
Interviewer:"why did you show little to no concern or regret for the 80% that died because of your plan?"
Knuckles:"They knew what they signed up for..."
Knuckles, the Zapp Branigan of the Sonic universe.
"The rookie is our only hope now"
Knuckles....., please think about what you just said. You most seasoned forces have been wiped out and your ONLY HOPE is a Rookie...... you are a terrible commander.
Everything wrong with Sonic Forces
Charii5 😂
Knuckles "Oops! All Rookies"
The rookie: oh shit😟😦😦
Rookie: WHOA WHOA, HELLO THERE!!! WHY ME THO
I guess writers didn't think we would care about stage dialogue
They probably just put 80% as a statistic just to make the ruby seem menacing
More than likely the case but it's still not a good look for our boy.
@@SGWolfie yeah they shouldn't butcher his character like that
When I heard that I knew knuckles fucked up
"They died like true soldiers"-Knuckles, probably
Knuckles is not a leadership-type character, he's generally a loner and stated to be awkward in social situations sometimes. (It's not that he couldn't be one, but when you think of a person giving orders or coming up with plans, Amy, Rouge, Tails or Vector are the first to come to mind. It felt Knuckles was chosen for marketing purposes. If he was like, a motivator or in charge of training the rookies, something that IS his skillset, it'd do wonders for his character and the plot) What happened in Forces made him look incompetent, rather than the resistance dealing with a hard blow from Infinite. (Who also has a can of worms himself)
I love your idea actually. Knuckles being the one to train people and motivate people on and off the battlefield is right up his alley. He's like a general you'd use not so much a commander you'd have organizing plans and strategies.
@@SGWolfie Drill Sergeant Knuckles trains forces at Fort Knux. on Angel Island.
You know who would be perfect for the role of commander? Vector. He's an experienced leader, clever, and doesn't just charge ahead to bash every problem in front of him.
He could have worked, if they made him a Caesar akin to Fallout New Vegas where he trained people for anything and utilized traditional battle tactics he learned from his youth.
I overlooked that part. They did knuckles dirty
king cat99 very dirty I could of sorry for knuckle they treat he like that in the pass he can make a good leader .
Knuckles is one of the many causalities of the current writing team sadly.
80 % of poeple Dead They really made knuckle this bad
I find out from other youtube shadow was not a edgy lord at all and this is what we did to shadow . And tails was ruin by sonic team It got to hell for them
At least he wasn't comic relief. Or at leas he wasn't intended to be
"Sonic Forces is a masterpiece..."
Me: What the fu-
"in jarring narrative dissonance."
Me: Phew.
To be fair, Amy did elaborate on Knuckles' leadership in the IDW Comics. Knuckles is great at rallying others. However, Amy was the real brains behind the scenes and she was the one who kept things organized.
I gotta say though, seeing Amy working on computers makes me think of her carrying around an AI on a handheld computer...
Paul Dunbar I understood that! I understood that reference!
Like Sally
True, the IDW comics have really done a good job retroactively explaining and fixing a lot of Forces narrative issues.
Werewoof Reactions still sucks that the main narrative issues are being solved by a comic series
Just give us Sally Acorn back. She is owned by Sega...
And people were mad Amy replaced him in the comics.
HE WIPED OUT HIS OWN FORCES IN ONE STAGE!
the resistance should be asking for his head on a pike!
And that's why IDW Sonic reckoned things and made Amy Rose the new leader and organizer even before Knuckles disbanded the resistance. It was their way of telling Sonic Team that Amy should have been the leader from the start and not Knuckles since his character isn't really a people's person like Amy Rose is since he lives alone on Angel Island. Plus in IDW Sonic, Knuckles wasn't seen as a threat on equal par with Sonic by Neo Metal Sonic, Amy was by the end of issue 1 of IDW Sonic. That's why Neo Metal Sonic plotted and lured out both Sonic and Amy in an effort to kill them both at the same time in one ambush in issue 2. Plus the loss of 80% of the resistance was brought up in issue 15 when Amy was explaining to Sonic how they lost a lot of good members of the resistance during the war and Sonic comforted and encouraged her.
Amy had a history of immaturity and recklessness. She's an even worse choice. The only game where she remotely shows good leadership skills is Heroes, and even then, it's not much.
@@MechaKnuckles I think Vector should have been the leader.
When Wolfie showed the clip of Shadow fighting the clones with the caption "what is this man doing?" I immediately cracked up! That was freaking hilarious and it's pretty much true because Shadow wasn't punching or kicking any of them, he was kinda just sliding through them like he was ice skating
Man had the cha-cha slide playing in his head when that happened.
I miss knuckles being relevant and I feel like knuckles should be around sonic's level of power since he is sonic's polar opposite. Since knuckles is the last echidna sega should have always kept him in the spotlight along with sonic since he is special!
Knuckles should be stronger than sonic, I hate how segas making sonic”the best” in every thing he does and it would fit better with Sonics team Sonics speed, knuckles is strength and tails is brain
@Revived Mo No knuckles is sonic's polar opposite. Both sonic and knuckles originally have completely opposite personalities. Sonic is all about adventure, living life on the edge, and plainly not following the rules. Knuckles is the exact opposite by wanting to stay in one place and guard the master emerald. Shadow is way too similar to sonic. Also speed isn't everything, Knuckles has skills too that can match sonic. They have more battles where when they fight it becomes a draw.
@@DavidYoung.04 no lol
Knuckles should be stronger than Sonic but he is not. Knuckles also is in no way the polar opposite of Sonic and as soon as his arc in Sonic Adventure was wrapped up that was not the case. While Sonic does love Adventure, after Sonic Adventure, Knuckles learned to lighten up and not stay only guarding the Master Emerald, also, Knuckles in the games has only ever canonically beaten Sonic once, while Sonic has defeated him numerous times. Knuckles can’t be Sonics polar opposite since after the Adventure games, he joins Sonic against many of his adventures like he did in Sonic Heroes when he had no need to or even in the game being mentioned in this video (Sonic Forces) when he’s leading the resistance instead. Sonics polar opposite is Shadow because Shadow is always doing a job while Sonic only ever does what he wants and loves free. Also Shadow, unlike Knuckles, has actually beaten or matched Sonic multiple times. He also beat Silver who when first introduced, was originally more powerful than Sonic. I agree that Knuckles shouldn’t be a bumbling idiot like how the games have portrayed him the last decade and they should take notes from how the Sonic movie sequel seems to show him as an actual powerful character and that it should be highlighted that his power is equivalent to Sonics speed but in strength but the fact is that this hasn’t been the case in the long time. And even if it was, he could never touch Sonic in theory because Sonic is too fast for him now that he has a good grasp on his powers
Even IDW comics makes a reference about Knuckles' skills as a leader, in the first moment that he could return to Angel's Island he did just that leaving everything to Amy resolve which ironic was his best idea as commander
Man, I've never noticed this, it's passed off so nonchalantly that hundreds of resistance fighters were killed that it's not even noticeable. It's not even funny.
Wtf.
I think everyone was best in Adventure 2, Knux and Miles especially. What happened to serious Knuckles and brave Tails, the little fox who could? Ok maybe not so much Tails for gameplay (what with confined to the mech). SA1 was the best for that. Hopefully in the next mainline game when they bring back the others as playable characters, for the first time in 14 years, they look to SA1 and let Tails run (and fly) wild and free. Because as the old saying goes: let Tails run (and fly) wild and free.
Man I really miss SA2 Knuckles, he was badass. I can hardly even see current Knuckles as the same character anymore.
3:54 I too am still struggling to figure out what the hell Shadow's doing here. Like. The fuck?
Knuckles screwed up worse then when Napoloeon forgot to pack some winter clothes when invading Russia.
Yo, Knuckles just went full-on Erwin Smith!
*SASAGEYO!*
*SASAGEYO!*
*SHINZOU WO SASAGEYO!*
Knuckles should be like in the IDW knuckles more than sonic boom he was more serious and still funny.
As someone who tried not to take this game seriously at all, I always found this bit super funny
How did no one object to a strategy that was thought out in a minute and a half
How was everyone still cool with Knuckles being commander after most of their army gets fucking annihilated
How is Knuckles himself so casual about all the blood he has on his hands
Who even let Knuckles be the commander to begin with
Why not someone much smarter like Tails? Or just anyone else with more than two braincells since Tails had “lost it”. Idk man this game is weird
Knuckles is supposed to be naïve, he was alone for a long time, that's why Eggman dupes him a lot. He's not supposed to be the dumbest....... At least when Boom did it, it was funny. They did him dirty here.
Probably the only thing in the game that made me laugh was the fact that he was so smug and sure of his strategy, only for the “80% of our forces have been wiped out”. Really dark and I’m well aware that it isn’t meant to be funny but I mocking the game
I have thoughts of Futurama's Zapp Brannigan now... 😆
Sega never give knuckles any love to knuckles after Sonic advantage 2. People keep making knuckles looks more foolish after that I'm a shame how Sega let him go a waste Wolfie.😰
They gave him respect in sonic heros, Sonic free riders and 30th anniversary sonic comic
Norman Osborn: YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOU SACRIFICED?!
its been 5 years since the big wave incident. knuckles now stands trial for negligence
Roy Mustang has come a long way
I feel like Knuckles' Proper Characterization would actually be a great Leader, but of course Dumb Knuckles is how Sega is writing him
You know, had Ben Hurst (if he were still alive) written this he could have written a much better story for Robotnik's rise and explain just how eighty percent of the Resistance was wiped out-and they would have shown it in some form...
You just can’t take Forces story seriously.
the problem with his plan was sending in trained soldiers. they should have sent in more rookies
I understand your feelings on the matter, buddy!
In fact, this is why people hate Pontac and Graff’s writing!
Their writing style worked well for Colors as a lighthearted entry in the series but not so much for this 'war' story.
@@SGWolfie eh, even then it's a very mixed bag I'd say. On one hand, Eggman's PA announcements in-game are great and full of sometimes corny, sometimes dark humor and those really fits Eggman's character and are by far the game's highlight in writing. On the other hand, every cutscene with Sonic and Tails feel stale and drags on way too long trying to make bad jokes for 5 years old while doing nothing but stand around.
I agree I feel like if your going to make Knuckles a leader of a group of freedom fighters or something like that have him lead a small team. Case in point the chaotix like in the Archie comics where Knuckles was the leader of his own small power house team. In the comics the Chaotix were pretty much "The Wreckers" of the Sonic Universe a team of crazy strong power houses that were called if the freedom fighters needed the backup or do a suicide mission.
To me Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles are not the people you have make the strategist for the team. they are the people you put on the field on get things done. Tails, Rouge, Vector, and Amy would are the best choices for commanders.
This video was amazing
That’s actually a good retrospective because I hadn’t picked up some of the subtleties you had. 👍
I’m super late but didn’t sonic or classic sonic escape from one of eggmans bases in space and blew it up when there were probably other prisoners
I kinda feel like some of the other characters deserve the blame as well. Especially with Tails saying it was a good idea.
I did some pseudo-intellectual googling (always fun) and assuming Knuckles has the rank of Lieutenant General the casualty count is anywhere from 16,000 to 32,000 (assuming the Resistance has a sizable military force)
Never do all out attacks
Knuckles be like -
The resistances are expendable
Christ I forgot about this. Maybe that's why the metal virus got so out of control.
Well to be fair, Knuckles had quit the resistance and put Amy in charge so he could go back to Angel Island before the Virus outbreak happened. The metal virus isn't his fault there.
@@SGWolfie I meant that the loses they suffered there left them undermanned for dealing with the virus.
I think i would rather see him turn into enerjak than this
Ah yes. Someone else who has called significant attention to that scene. What were they thinking when writing this game man? First the added dialogue about torture, then this.
I actually like it. I think they should have went all the way with the darker theme. SatAm dark...
im so pissed off from what they made knuckles out to be. he used to be an amazing character and now he's just a total joke. knuckles seems to have been washed out, along w operation big wave. i actually bought sonic forces about a week ago and i was already mortified at tails begging for a presumed dead sonic to save him as he whimpered and shook in the corner. knuckles just made me realize why the game was on sale for 10 bucks on the ps4 store 💀
You made it so fucking easy
Well no master emerald was mentioned so maybe they revive them on the island
Our big wave, is washed out.
*laugh track*
hey woofie can you react to thoughts on 2010's sonic games from characters in depth and give your thoughts on 2010's sonic games👍👌😁
You predicted Idris Elba
I don't see the part where you say that Idris Elba is going to be knuckles voice
01:27 Idris Elba knuckels heard what amy said and lost his shit
Sorry
it worked for elpizo in megaman zero 2.. why wont it work for knuckles the echidna..
Wiped out probably means defeated not killed 🤔🤔
No. To "wipe out" your enemies in battle is to mean WIPED OUT. Dead.
No. They were killed.
Battle result: Numerous casualties. On this day, many women and children lost their husbands and fathers in a pointless, ill-planned assault
General Knuckles: Bazinga
Awesome
Gotta love how some of theore toxic fan belly ache over Amy being the leader of the Resistance by claiming that it's "out of character" or "making her a discount Sally", and yet absolutely nobody calls attention to the fact that Knuckles being in charge led to half of their forces getting wiped out over a strategy he thought of in a minute and a half.
The hypocrisy is just staggering.
"I've got a full proof plan for us to stop Tyrese for good. We're calling it Operation: Die-rese 😊😅😂.
Not just half, but 4/5 in just flick of the wrist.
*uses an Idris Elba reaction meme in a video related to Knuckles*
You had no fucking idea, did you?
It was a complete coincidence I swear!
Holy cow, what writing?
By all that happen in the writting, I don´t even know if "wipped out" mean that they are actually death, maybe just... trapped? xd
I don´t know, this is the thing that I notice that happen often in shows, like I don´t known, Trollhunters? "the last one was dismembered limb by limb", for one side there are "PG" implications but in a story that is not PG so they can´t show it and it ended like a (in Forces case) "Well... people are dying in horrific ways... I-I guess? =
I'm pretty sure they do mean KIA. Sonic games don't shy away from death. And Knuckles Branigan here is the cause of it all.
This is extreme insulting. Yet Sega still to this day hasn't learn there lesson. I get it they had to down size the company but come on what the fuck this is careless.
1:29 what a coincedence that Idris Elba will be voicing knuckles
i don't understand why people blame knuckles thats just a strategic error maybe tails would have done a better thing
Because he's the leader of the Resistance. This was his plan. And it resulted in over 80% of their forces lost. That's more than a strategic error, that is strategic failure. Knuckles is not a good leader.
Strategic error to plan in only a minute and a half?
This event sound like it would happen in Archie before the reboot. Not in a main game.
Hey Archie Sonic characters actually thought long and hard about their strategies to prevent slaughters like this.
even in the absolute worst parts of Archie Sonic no one was ever this dumb.
This is why you don’t put teenagers in big roles
Sonic has stopped being cannon for me after Sonic Heroes.
All other games and stories are filler.
When you look at the original Japanese script with the correct subtitles, I can only wonder the actual line was. Because Sonic was never tortured and Tails never lost it in the Japanese dub. And just another example of the localization screwing things up, get a load of this little beauty from Team Sonic Racing with Sonic's "trash talking" compared to what he actually says when you play it in Japanese.
www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgehog/comments/igyf1x/forget_baldy_mcnosehair_if_ever_there_was_an/
So I looked up and no, it was the same with serious thought of about a minute behind it. I hate Forces...
Localization had been fucking things up since the first game, western Sonic is not Sonic.