As a native Califorian I just found out that I love hearing US history from the mouths of 2 Englishmen. They are serious about the subject matter but not so serious as to be dull and boring. Their humor and wit are just enough to entertain you and keep you chuckling. Just found this channel and will be here to stay.
I wish many more people hear about Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland. These guys are the most watchable historians on TH-cam--knowledgeable, insightful, good-natured and fair. Loved this absorbing 8-part series on the Battle of Little Bighorn and watched some episodes two or three times. Not just for the light shed on the personalities and motives of the men who fought there--Custer, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall, Reno and Benteen--but also for the analysis of background events in the Grant administration that brought them together in that remote spot in southeastern Montana on Sunday, June 25, 1876. I must confess I also thoroughly enjoyed the droll character sketches of George Crook and Alfred Howe Terry. Great stuff, gentlemen. I wish your channel all success.
Much of Custer's legend was enhanced by the Anheuser Bush Brewing Company comishining prints of the "last stand" which appeared for decades over virtually every bar in America. Fallen Timbers was actually the worst defeat by US forces to a Native arms. Over 1000 men killed during George Washington's administration. Thomas Berger's novel - Little Big Man - is my favorite novel. It is much better than the film, and more balanced in how it portrays the clash of vastly different civilizations never quite able to make sense of each other.
@@michaelcooley4553 You have your battles confused. The worst defeat the U.S. Army ever suffered by Native Americans was St. Clair's Defeat. This battle took place in western Ohio, along the Wabash River, but it did occur during Washington's administration. The Natives killed close to 900 soldiers, camp followers and contractors. At the time, that figure represented approximately one-quarter of the entire U.S. Army. The Battle of Fallen Timbers occurred three years later in 1794. In a short but decisive battle, General "Mad" Anthony Wayne routed the same Indian confederation that wiped out General St. Clair's forces.
I enjoy all your podcasts, but the episodes on the Little Big Horn had me riveted throughout. What characters! And how you brought them vividly to life. Well done, and very many thanks.
Growing up less than 60 miles away from the Little Bighorn Battlefield, I too was fascinated with the stories of what happened on that fateful day. I read every book I could get my hands on and spent many time at cemetery as my uncle was buried there (and eventually my grandparents). As you mentioned, the irony of the Native Americans and Sitting Bull's great victory meant their future defeat was near. But if you go to the battlefield today, you will see something that was not there where I was a kid. It is the honor that is given to the Native warriors who won that day, not just Custer and the 13th Cavalry. You will also see the hope that we can live with each other, sharing Montana.
The thing I think people forget regarding the Springfield trap door rifles is that, yes they were single shots, but they shot the 45-70 cartridge. Even today that cartridge is held in high regards by hunters. It was a better and more powerful long range cartridge than the Winchesters and Henry’s which shot the weaker 44 rim fired and the 44-40s. If you could keep the fire up from a skirmish line and keep an enemy at a distance the Springfields would have had the advantage of being better at long distance. But if troopers were exposed in the open while warriors could storm and close the distance or use ravines to conceal their movement while they closed the distance under full cover protected from the cavalry’s fire, the weakness of the Winchesters and Henry’s cartridges would have been negated, their shorter range disadvantage being replaced by the great advantage of being repeater rifles. At shorter distances there was no comparison.
The cartridge may be longer range in a rifle, but they had carbines with very short barrels and an effective range of only about 300 yards. They also found many fallen troopers had broken knives by them which would have been from trying to pry jammed cartridges out of the guns. Post battle, it was found much of the 7th ammo was copper not brass cartridges which would jam. Low bidders no doubt. The Henry repeaters in particular had much better ranges and the Indians knew their guns. Indians, survivors and the archeology backs it up that the troopers were out ranged. Carbines were standard issue for cavalry due to size and weight. They also had warehouses left over from the Civil War and the Army had no budget for new longer ranged rifles as well as new ammunition. Many officers also did not like the rate troopers used ammunition in repeaters and preferred the single shot guns simplifying supply. US Calvary used the 7 shot spencer repeaters in the Civil War, but in the west were issued the single shot carbines.
@@jamesb4789 I’m sure the carbine fired those rounds at a slower velocity than the rifles, but they would certainly be effective for 200 yards. Once you are out in the realm of 200-300 yards with iron sights it becomes rather moot without a scope. Those 44-40s out of a rifle are a lot like shooting 45 colt or even 357 out of a rifle or carbine. Hunters today tend to refuse to shoot those rounds much beyond 100 yards because those bullets start dropping like a brick beyond that. I’ve seen mention of modern hunters with those kinds of rifles trying to keep ranges down closer to 75 yards. The carbines would still have had some advantage at ranges past 100 yards.
Most of the Calvary were not good shots if they even could use their rifles. Custer was more into matching horse colors. In the Civil War it was found the velocity of fire was more important that single fire weapons. Also, Crazy Horse circled behind.
@@jamesb4789 sorry but 44 Henry Rim fire and 44-40 could not out range the 45-70, even if the latter was fired out of a carbine length barrel. It’s comparing the equivalent of handgun cartridges out of a rifle vs actual rifle cartridges from a rifle. To say that they could is like saying 45 Colt out of a rifle could equal or surpass 45-70. And the 44 Henry Rimfire had even worse ballistics than the 44-40. You are right about jams being problematic, but you have to remember that metallic cartridges were still a relatively new concept and there were growing pains in its development post Civil War. Even so, while jams did occur, why didn’t Reno’s smaller force get wiped out? Either in the woods but especially up on the hill? Where are the countless mentions of trapdoors failing them? They had the same equipment as Custer’s battalion. I would imagine that failing rifles in the midst of a live or die situation would have become a major theme of the history of that defense. The trapdoors used were model 1873. These were not left over civil war stock but were new. Not to mention that this cartridge (45-70) was first invented specifically for the Springfield trapdoor model 1873. They were both relatively new in service. Lastly, I would hypothesize that Reno’s defensive position on the hill afforded his troops a good open field of fire to really utilize the 45-70. Yes they did take some long distance fire from natives but I seriously doubt these were from Henrys. Some Natives did have other rifles, some of which could shoot across long open distances such as Sharps rifles. I presume that Custer and Keogh’s defensive positions didn’t afford them the same protection. There are numerous gullies that run up towards those positions. It’s also why Reno had to withdraw during his initial engagement in the valley at the start of the fight. If the enemy was able to close faster than your single shots could keep them at distance, you could be threatened with being overrun. I don’t think this is any real indication of inherent problems with the Springfields but of tactics.
Great discussion! It was indeed an absolutely epic situation all around. Custer, Sitting Bull, and Crazy Horse were all "larger than life" characters with extraordinary personal stories and great charisma, and so their names have lived on and will long be remembered.
A couple of comment that clarify some things. 1. The expedition plan was a three prog advance to pen in the tribes and escort them back to the reservation. Custer and Reno were at the briefing so at least Reno knew the plan. Custer's orders were to join up with General Terry on the Big Horn River a few miles from Reno Hill on June 27th. IF Custer's 7th had moved the standard distances normal for the heat and terrain, he would have reached the rendezvous on the evening of the 26th. Instead, Custer lead forced marches to get there early on the 25th including marching nearly all night on the 24th/25th. Why? 2. Every survivor said the same thing, the horses were exhausted when they arrived at the Little Big Horn. They rested on a short time with minimal water for the horses. By the time the battle was engaged, the horses no longer could gallop. The field was large and sprawling. what was a distance of over 3 miles as the crow flies between Reno and Custer was in reality closer to 7 on good riding terrain. In that era, a mile of distance is more like 10 to us. By the time the message arrived telling Benteen to hurry forward, it was in reality too late because the horses could not move fast enough. 3. Civilians think all rifles sound the same, but the truth is an experienced trooper could tell the difference. They knew the Indians had many repeaters because of the sounds. It also is very important to realize they also knew the repeaters in the hands of good rifleman had twice the effective range of the single shot carbines which were left over and out of date Civil War weapons. The Indian tactics had their riflemen pinning down the troopers while others crept forward and used arrows as indirect fire on Calhoun Hill and Last Stand Hill. The tactic did not work as well on Reno's hill because the terrain was different (few ravines) and the men built and dug rough rifle pits. The low Indian losses reflect this. 4. Before leaving for the Big Horn campaign, Custer met with representatives of the Democrat party about running for President. Notes survived from the meeting and Custer understood he needed to claim the victory and the glory to get the nomination. That quest explains the forced marches and not waiting per orders. Custer himself had only two tactics. Charge blindly or in the West take hostages. During the Civil war his units had the highest losses in the entire US army. What people ignore is sending in Reno would have been a tactic for Reno to draw off the warriors while he rode around and seized the women and Children as hostages, something he did before. It explains the report of observing Reno's attack falter, but he continued on to grab hostages. Initial reports in the Army show utter disgust at Custer and put the blame on him. The shift to Benteen and Reno was a direct result of Custer's Widow launching what is effectively a propaganda campaign. It worked because the Indian wars were slowly coming to an end and the Army was afraid to fight back when budgets were being cut. Custer's widow came from a prominent family with connections which also was a factor. And it was the beginning of the period known as "yellow journalism" with everyone writing outlandish tales to sell cheap papers and books. The fault lies on Custer's shoulders, period. Reno's attack never had a chance with tired men and horses across rough terrain. Benteen never had enough men to make a difference to Custer and he made the correct decision. Custer divided up his forces with no regard to reality, and he had an agenda for a glorious victory. You also failed to mention Custer's chest wound was not fatal. The bullet to the temple was and there were gun powder burns indicating suicide.
jamesb4: Clarify things? Clarify things, my ass. Your comments are ridiculous, flawed and unfounded. Nowhere in his orders to him does General Terry specify an exact date when his column would meet up with Custer at the Little Bighorn River. Given the terrain the Montana column had to traverse, it was not possible to give an exact date, but General Terry did, offhandedly, mention a "possible" date of June 26. While following the Indian trail up the Rosebud River, en route to the Little Bighorn valley, Custer did not "force march" his regiment. The Seventh Cavalry rode about 25 miles a day - sometimes a little more, sometimes less. Thirty miles a day was an average march for cavalrymen on a campaign trail. On the evening of June 24th, Custer ordered a night march in order to get closer to his objective. The column mounted up at 11:00 pm, and it rode until 2:00 am - hardly an "all night march". By the way, dimwit, at the Little Bighorn, the troopers of the Seventh Cavalry were not using "left over and out of date Civil War weapons". They were using Model 1873, trapdoor, Springfield carbines. The effective range of this weapon was superior to any Winchester or Henry repeater. On June 25th, Custer's initial plan was to conceal his regiment, rest his men and horses, reconnoiter the area around the village with his scouts, then attack the village on June 26th - which was the very day the Terry/Gibbon column was purportedly suppose to arrive from the north. For all of that, during the early morning hours of June 25, Custer's scouts informed him that the regiment had likely been observed by wandering Sioux and Cheyenne hunting parties; as such, Custer's Indian scouts wanted him to attack the village as soon as possible, but Custer still wanted to wait until the 26th to attack. Later that morning, more news filtered in that proved, without a doubt, that the Indians were aware of the Seventh Cavalry's presence. Once Custer received this latest intelligence, he altered his plans and wisely decided to take the advice of his scouts by attacking the village that very day - June 25th. And the truth of the matter is this: Custer's only viable option was to attack the village as soon as possible. If he waited, the Natives in the village would have had ample time to scatter and flee. Such a result would have compromised the goal of the entire campaign - which was to find the Indians, and prevent them from escaping. Moreover, if Custer decided to wait, he would have been putting his entire regiment at risk. The warriors in the village, knowing the Bluecoats were near, likely would have tried to ambush the regiment at a time and place of their own choosing. The horses were tired, sure, but they could no longer gallop? Really? Where the hell do you get this information? What are your sources? There are no accounts whatsoever that say the horses of the Seventh Cavalry were dropping out in droves from thirst and exhaustion. Incidentally, Boston Custer managed to move fast enough to catch up with his older brother, and he was with the pack train, but you're saying Benteen's horses could not? Did Benteen not spend around 20 minutes watering his horses at the morass? And when he was on his scout, and in order to spare tiring out the horses of his battalion, didn't Benteen assign the traversing of all those hills to a small detail of men led by Lt. Gibson? Yes, he did. Prior to the Little Bighorn, "Custer met with representatives of the Democratic party about running for President", huh? Again, where in the hell do you get your "facts"? Seriously, I'd like to know. Here's a bonafide fact for you: there is not a modicum of historical evidence that suggests George Armstrong Custer was vying for the Presidency of the U.S. As a matter of fact, his wife dissuaded him from any kind of political ambitions because she thought it didn't suit him, and Custer readily agreed with her. Custer's chest wound was not fatal, eh? This was the wound near his heart, where all the blood was, but it wasn't fatal, huh? And the bullet wound to Custer's temple indicated suicide? That's funny, because historians and scholars all agree that George Armstrong Custer did not possess the temperament or wherewithal to commit self-slaughter; he would have went down fighting to the end. Besides, right-handed people aren't apt to shoot themselves in the left temple. Your comment makes little sense, Jamesb4. You should do a lot more research b4 posting erroneous, half-baked, and opinionated comments on public platforms such as TH-cam. Then again, maybe you enjoy embarrassing yourself with your ignorance.
Clarify things? Clarify things. My ass. .44 rimfire repeaters don't have half the effective distance of the calvary's .45-70's. You clearly don't know anything about guns and this leads me to believe you are wrong about everything else too. Looking to sound smart and informed when you're an actual cave man. Like an actual hairy caveman. From the Geico commercial !
Observations... 1. It was assumed in the meeting that Custer would ignore the join-up order, because he was Custer. 2. The horses were spent, yet Custer managed to get those miles away with so called spent mounts. 3. The carbines were Springfield model 1873, so were not CW leftovers. Estimates of Indian KIAs range from 100-300 while cavalry KIAs were 258. Considering the split US command and the overwhelming odds of the Indians, the Indian KIAs were not especially low. 4. Numerous troopers did not put the blame on Custer and Capt. Weir obviously did not. Some troopers accused Reno of being drunk. Both Reno and Benteen were eventually driven out of the service for their drunken ways (Benteen pulled some strings to be reinstated). To say the fault lies with Custer is entirely subjective. His tactics were sound based on previous experiences with hostile Indians. Reno/Benteen spent about an hour doing nothing after they joined forces (before Weir made his 1 mile ride to find the Indians mopping up the last of Custer's command). It is entirely feasible that if upon joining Reno and Benteens commands could have advanced to Custer (largely unopposed), and if Reno/Benteen's commands survived then certainly the entire 7th rejoined would have. Whether Custer committed suicide is entirely moot and smacks of a bias rather than analysis of the cold hard facts.
Found Dominic and Tom last year while absorbing all I could about the fall of the Aztecs. Of course, I stumbled upon their epic series on the fall of the Me-shee-ka. I became a subscriber after the first episode, and I must say it’s probably the best investment I’ve ever made entertainment wise. As an American, I learned more about Custer and his final days through this series than my previous 40 years in the states. So informative, gripping, hilarious at times, and haunting. A true masterpiece of storytelling. But it’s like this with all subjects these gentlemen dive into. I look forward in anticipation to every time Theo drops a new gem. I’ve also recently read Tom’s Rubicon and have three of Dom’s Adventure in Time books on the way for me and kiddos. Thanks for all that you do fellas.
Yesterday i finished reading Custer's My Life on the Plains. Utterly fascinating. Very much enjoyed this podcast and will now go straight to episode one and watch the rest. Great stuff chaps, thank you.
Good to recognize the unique achievements of the Indians in this campaign. The Indians had never put together such force before and properly handled it.
I cant wait for the new episodes on WW1 and Franz ferdinand to be uploaded, listened to the first ep and found out you were on location so patiently waiting for hopefully a video version :)
Absolutely fantastic series. You remind me of and then I bought the Custer archaeology book. I also quite liked your epic series on Cortes and Montezuma and the fall of his empire.
That was great historic coverage! I quickly learned that the Indian leaders had a clear strategy. Custer on the other hand was very aware of the times that R.E Lee and Stonewall Jackson split up their forces and were successful in doing it. Yet the lesson that he should have learned from them is the fact that they didn’t have an ego problem with slipping out of an area at night when they knew they were outnumbered. The Indian scouts had to know those numbers. Sometimes when the ego rules intelligence drools.
In my opinion. Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull are some of the best American military generals that rank right up there with Grant, Patton and Eisenhower. It’s a shame that they don’t get the recognition they truly deserve.
What might be an interesting counterpoint to the US Army’s experience at Little Bighorn is the British Army’s experience in South Africa only three years later. In January 1879, a British expeditionary force under Lord Chelmsford was surprised by a massive assault by Zulu impis at Isandlwana. Utilising their hallmark tactic of head, horns, and loins formation, the estimated 15,000 Zulu warriors attacked a British column of over 1,800 men, putting them to rout and killing more than 1,300. However, at the nearby outpost of Rorke’s Drift, a mere 139 British troops held out successfully against successive assaults by a force of approximately 4,500 Zulu warriors, inflicting severe casualties on the native attackers. In this engagement, the 24th Foot suffered but 17 men killed in action and ten wounded, while the Zulu attackers are believed to have lost more than 500 men. Thus Reno’s Hill and Rorke’s Drift may provide instructive counterpoints to Last Stand Hill and Isandlwana. In combat, discipline, firepower, and intelligent leadership proved to be the trump card.
Fantastic series. Born in 68, this was my first SERIOUS interest in an event of history. I even eventually served with the seventh on the DMZ in Korea. Their NCO Club was amazing, huge mural of the battle on the wall. Benteen is celebrated for putting his command first. Custer not so much.
Having visited the battle site in Montana my first reaction was that the area is quite confined considering the geography and it would’ve been fairly easy for Custer, Benteen and Reno to ascertain the number of Sioux, Cheyanne, etc warriors they were up against and wait at a distance for reinforcements. Clearly arrogance was at the core of this “blunder”.
It seems small to us because we are used to greater distances and much faster speed. If you want to understand it, ride a horse on the field. I grew up near Gettysburg and you cannot understand the battle unless you walk it, especially Picket's Charge. Little Big Horn is he same. I was there in the late 60's with the family and we did a horseback tour. Years later I was there and just drove around and it is a different world.
That's a crock of shit. It was Custer's regiment. He was in command. If the Seventh Cavalry won the day, Custer would have received his laurels. He didn't need to divide his forces in order to achieve glory; Custer would have received glory for himself, and his regiment, if the Seventh had a victory. Custer wanted his regiment to win the battle, you idiot. If his subordinate officers (Reno and Benteen) happened to receive accolades for a successful battle, so be it. Custer would have received his honors too; after all, it was his regiment, and he was in charge of it. Custer divided his forces because, when attacking an Indian village - especially a large one - it was best to hit the village from different directions, using 2 or 3 separate battalions. This was a tried and true maneuver in Indian warfare called an "envelopment" tactic.
I read Stephen A Abrose's dual biography on Custer & Crazy Horse years ago. It was phenomenal! highly recommend it. George Custer's wife came from an extremely wealthy and politically connected family. And either due to her having mental health issues, her thinking this would help their family gain fame & money, or getting a form of joy from it - she treated George with a blind worship for their whole marriage that few people show their spouses. (Abrose's book contains letters to prove this) After she heard of George's death, she went to great lengths and spent a deal of money to give her husband a squeaky clean legacy and to find and lambaste every possible officer who could have failed that day.
Completely agree. Can’t see how a sustained charge of Reno’s 150 or so inexperienced men would have changed much. They’d possibly have created an initial panic among the native women and children but would have been quickly surrounded on all sides by rallying Lakota warriors. Reno’s lack of nerve ironically saved lives of those cavalrymen who were able to retreat to the bluffs. The responsibility for defeat lies 1) with Terry who relegated command to Custer, and 2) with Custer who failed to properly scout the enemy and the terrain and made a rash a decision being guided by consideration of his future glory and financial and political gain rather than by military necessity.
@@alehhandro1 Not a few Native accounts stated that, "had Reno's battalion carried its charge through the village, the Bluecoats might have won the day" Reno's 150 men surprised and shocked the Indians in the village. Whether it's 150 men or 550 men, that's what a cavalry charge does - it creates chaos and panic. When Reno first appeared at the south end of the village, he caught the Sioux by surprise. Many of the warriors ran to fetch their ponies that were located on a broad bench-land almost a quarter-of-a-mile west of their camp. In short, Major Reno wasn't facing hundreds of warriors upon his initial approach, He had the upper hand, and he had the element of surprise; yet, for all of that, Reno did not press his advantage by charging; instead, he halted his command, dismounted, and formed skirmish lines. That was the first of his many errors. After suffering very few casualties, Reno withdrew his battalion into a stand of timber located about 200 yards away from the village. That timber provided Reno's troops with perfect defensive positions; as a matter of fact, it was the best protected spot on the entire battlefield. Reno's Arikara scouts, who were usually pessimistic, even said: "the soldiers, while in the timber, could have held out there indefinitely". But what did Major Reno do? Instead of ordering his men to hunker down an dig in, he retreated. Not only did Reno retreat, he led the way. In that mad dash to the perceived safety of a hilltop on the other side of the river, half of Reno's men ended up dead, wounded, and missing. If you knew anything about the Little Bighorn battle, you would know the reasons why Custer "failed" to properly scout the enemy and terrain. You would also know that Custer made no rash judgements, and "financial" or "political gains" played no part in his decision-making that day. You're an unread dimwit, handro
There was no way the Lakota and Cheyenne were going to do a Zulu-like charge against Reno and Benteen's 350 troops who were dug in and pretty concentrated. They lacked the discipline to take the sort of casualties they would incur overrunning the position, casualties they could not readily replace as a people.Furthermore, by keeping the survivors of the 7th pinned down the Lakota achieved their goal of protecting the village. When Terry approached they sensibly rode off.
I wonder what would happen if the 2 sides were even, it's known that the overwhelming numbers of the Indians put Custer at a complete disadvantage, the 7th was outnumbered 3-1 overall I think. But what if the number of warriors and troopers were equal?
I can't believe I've never heard this podcast before. My dad's dad's dad AND my dad's mom's dad were both in Custer's 7th Calvary. Why is it English people narrate American history more eloquently and coherently than "Merican folks" do?
Who or what was to blame ? 1) Custer. Arrogant, full of ambition, and contemptuous of his foe (that can lead you to underestimate them). 2)Custer again---his Scouts are telling him they sign of the biggest village they have ever seen, and what does he do? He splits his command in to 3 parts. Most Commanders told by Scouts that he was facing a far superior force would not split their command. 3) This might be the most important factor. The 1873 Springfield Rifle , when fired fast (as in a fast moving battle) would jam. The empty shell would be jammed in the overheated rifle and have to be removed with a knife. Troopers have a hot useless rifle and are now reduced to using their sidearms, which have far less range. At this points, the Native American's Bow and Arrows have more range. If many of the Native Americans had more reliable rifles, they would just continue to pour fire on the soldiers. The question I have is did the Army high ups know about this fault the rifle had before this battle . Or was it this battle that made it clear.?
There is the possibility that Benteen believed so strongly in Custer's persona that he believed that Custer was likely winning not believing he could be defeated so totally, likely partially in shock of the battles and facing his own demise. Something else that we will never really know. Custer could not have died any other way than in battle.
Thank you both very much for your great telling of the build up , battle and aftermath of the battle of the little big horn. You make a great double act. Keep it going!
Great descriptions of the aftermath of a complete fiasco, gave me a better picture of the American manifest destiny, the American dream if you will. Great conversation. Thx. 👍
When Benteen reached Reno (about 2:05), both their troops heard volleys from couple miles north (where Custer had ridden). A volley is an organized, dismounted, under-pressure defensive tactic, so Benteen and Reno knew that Custer was in a defensive position in a hard fight. At the Reno inquiry B and R claimed they heard no volleys but most of the other witnesses, including a hard-of-hearing officer, said they heard volleys. I presume B and R were lying to exculpate themselves. Custer's note said "Big Indian Village. Bring Paks. Be Quick." At this time most of the Indians attacking Reno ran northward toward the Custer gunfire. Reno then spends 40 minutes hiking down toward the river to find the body of his slain adjutant, during which time Custer, Keogh and Calhoun are fighting for their lives. Around 2:40 Weir, a pal of Custer, contrary to Benteen's orders, starts his company north to arrive at Weir Point about 3:10. B and R follow but they all turn back when they see Indians headed toward them from the north, where they also saw Indians shooting down into the ground. Years later in letters, Benteen admits he detested Custer and was glad Custer, his two brothers, his nephew, his brother-in-law and his adjutant were killed. Benteen didn't exactly follow orders, but from accounts of Reno survivors, one gets the picture that the numbers of Indians vastly outweighed soldiers in all three fights -- Reno charge, Reno defensive and Custer-Calhoun battle. Hard job. Hard life.
The reports also made it clear the gun fire was mostly rifles not the Army Carbines carried by the Troopers. The more experienced men could tell the difference and it is clear the volume of Indian fire was most likely what was heard. I also think you assume it is troopers but why? Volley fire was rarely used by troopers in the west. From what I read, some of it was most likely Indian ambushes or even the pauses while they worked up to attack. You are also misunderstanding the time line. Benteen arrived somewhere between 2:00 and 2:10 at Reno's position. Weir came up with the pack mules at about 2:30/2:40. By the time he began to move the firing had died down to a steady but reduced level. Most evidence points to Indians finishing off wounded and stragglers from Custer's 5 companies. Weir and his men moved only about a mile before encountering a large force of warriors and they had to ride for their lives back to Reno's Hill. Reports from the Indians indicate most of the warriors left the Last Stand Hill and moved to attack Reno so it makes sense, but it also means Custer was probably dead by the time Weir got to Reno's position. Time for events in this period of history is very difficult. No one had standardized watches and they never bothered to coordinate them before an attack. Nor was there "secretaries" or aides keeping logs. Always take such references as approximations only.
@@jamesb4789 I am using TH-cam video Custer's Last Stand Timeline Analysis Animation for timing. Agree timing is uncertain. Have read no accounts that Indians fired in unison as in volleys. Only accounts were that they popped up and shot individually. Survivors from Reno report their initial skirmish line utilized volleys.
One of the most valuable findings of Foxes archeology was confirmation the .45-55-305 cartridges issued to the 7th were experimental, made of copper (not brass/gilding metal), which had a tendency to become stuck in the chamber during periods of sustained fire. Fox recovered many fired cases that exhibited signs of being extracted with the blade of a pocket knife. Just consider how that affected rates of fire.
One of the things that strikes me is throwing out that Benteen and Reno were cowards, Reno was drunk, and Benteen was so petty that he refused to follow orders. Both Benteen and Reno saw heavy action in the Civil War and were decorated for their actions. Reno being drunk is primarily based on one soldier who he had disciplined for stealing food. Drinking on duty was not viewed then as it is today, look at Grant in the Civil War. And as for him being drunk during the battle, how much liquor would he be carrying? They start out talking about the fact that Custer had run his forces hard the day before, then got them up to move at night, and then takes them into battle early on, but drop that later. If you get out to the battle field and look at the terrain and the think about Benteen's movements. Custer had him scouting out from where he was split off. His three companies had ridden up and down two ridges. He sent a small group to scout up a third and when they returned with no sightings, the unit had to retrace up and down that same difficult terrain. By the time they get to the creek, they need to water the horses and they have already ridden miles further and have to catch up with the rest of the 7th Cavalry. When they meet up with Reno, he is outranked and Reno's forces are in disarray, there is no way he could move out immediately.
Hello gents. If you ever deign to visit this area (I live in Sheridan, about an hours drive south), I suggest visiting in June. It's by far the most beautiful time of year here.
Marcus Reno was definitely not a coward. He served on the staff of Torbert‘s cavalry corps. When Sheridan left in the valley and joined Grant at Petersburg, Torbert and Reno stayed behind. Reno led a number of scouting expeditions in March 1865. I believe he engineer the surrender of John Mosby, the gray ghost.
He got post traumatic syndrome after bloody knife's brains splatter over his face. Something they didn't know about at the time. Also didn't Custer let him down by not following him into the charge.
The term 'Sioux' is a French bastardisation of the Ojibwe term Nadowessioux, meaning 'little snakes', as they had been long time foes. There was no Sioux people, nation, or language. They were mostly Lakota tribes, who inhabited the northwestern plains, and they fought alongside the Cheyenne, Kiowa and Arapaho. One of my 4x great grandmothers was apparently one of the last women to speak her native Algonquin language. She was the daughter of an Irish soldier who had fought in the Civil War and a Pequot mother, named Nora White Feather. I grew up learning quite a few of the old customs, which were taught to me by a man called John Running Deer, who was a Chickahominy elder, and his wife, when I was a child in Williamsburgh, Va, back in the late-1960s. I still have the piece of coral they gave me, which is a treasured possession.
Frederick Whitaker was the adjutant for the third cavalry, division, army of the Potomac cavalry corps In 1863 he was on the staff of hJudson Kilpatrick. In 1864 he served on the staff of James H. Wilson. Custer took over the division after Winchester and Whitaker then served on Custers staff. The officers and men of the third division worshiped Custer. He wore a red necktie, so they all started wearing red neck ties. Whitaker won the medal of honor for his services with the third division.
I watched a doco on the forensic search of Little Big Horn. Studies show that many of Custer's troop were in poor health. Skulls show a lot of tooth decay. Some were mere boys.
I spent a week in 1993 visiting the LBH battlefield and the 7th Cav route from their Yellowstone camp. I enjoyed this series immensely. I concluded that Custer's battalion fell quickly. 7th Cav cartridge finds on Luce & Nye Cartwright ridges indicate a running fight to Calhoun hill- Finley ridge from Medecine Tail coulee.. Thereafter a 'buffalo hunt' all the way to last stand hill. I doubt that Custer HQ group (plus E and F cos) ever travelled to a northern ford looking for captives (ford D). Last stand hill was about as far north as the 7th cavalry got IMHO. Maybe at most onto a part of cemetery ridge.
I just finished viewing ur video of the 7th cavalry and the battle of the little big horn. I must thank U both for the way it was presented in its fair and unimpartial way. American education for what ever reason has a tendency 2 distort facts and truth . U have shown to " err is human to forgive is divine " this plight of the native American and the American governments disingenuous behavior was the the motivator for the irreparable events that followed. The Indian won the battle but lost the war and they still fight today to reright the injustices of the past. I also now have a different take on the brave heros of the 7th calvary, however I look at the command staff of the 7th in a more realistic light having served in the US army circa Viet Nam. U guys were great in Ur presentation thank U, I look to the future for new episodes from U 😊
Hey, I’ve been listening to a lot of different accounts plus your account of the battle of the little big horn recently. I had the pleasure to actually go there and I was overwhelmed by the size of this battlefield for that day in that terrain and I thought that Custer was over his head to begin with, and how he thought that he ever had the upper hand is beyond me that being said there’s a bigger defeat by the United States Army I believe in the late 1890s in Ohio where the United States army lost about 90%, including civilians in a battle with the Indians in northern Ohio northeast Ohio western Indiana in that area and that is something that you guys should talk about
Where have you guys been? I'm starving for history.... And I agree with someone below that you don't need those banner interruptions. Breaks up the flow.
It's plausible to me that Tom would have thought very very hard in the end. You have to remember he won the Congressional medal of Honor I believe twice during the civil war and was a decorated and celebrated war hero of the American civil war. Not to mention he's fighting alongside his actual kin his blood his brothers. I like to believe that Tom in the end thought maybe he could do something to save his brother....
Great episode as usual. Small complaint, the musical interludes with title cards are actually pretty distracting and a tiny bit annoying. If those are kept, can the volume for those be dropped significantly from the main dialogue?
I agree, and may I... amplify this: the noise is really distracting and besides: you two don't need it, who could go to sleep listening to you both? Pleeeease discontinue, there are enough ads as it is (unless one has ad-free youtube). Accoustic torture! Your programs are a so great.
It is interesting that ALL encounters in the open resulted in rapid defeat and/or retreat. Reno in the valley, Benteen + Reno at Weir point and the panicked retreat from same. We expect the Custer battalion to have behaved very differently but I doubt it. They were caught in the open and rapidly defeated in detail. The Reno-Benteen plus Pact Train remnant dug in and held out for 2 more days. However if Terry had not arrived within three days the 7th Cav would likely have been massacred to a man when their meagre water supply finally ran out and their ability to fight or stay awake was significantly eroded.
I believe he was told to wait till the infantry arrived to make an all out attack so he disobeyed his orders he killed all his men for his dream of glory which he wanted for himself
1. Did you know that Tom Custer was one of the few men to win two Medals of Honor? 2. Stephen Ambrose (Band of Brothers) has a book: "Crazy Horse and Custer: The Parallel Lived of Two American Warriors." 3. The evidence suggests that Custer positioned his men to await Benteen. 4. If Benteen had rushed to Custer, that probably would have take pressure off Reno, and might have been a game-changer for Custer. It would have had shock value. 5. I firmly believe that Custer's last 50 words were: "Where the eff is Benteen?" times 10.
It seems they underestimated the forces they were against. They should have also waited for reinforcements once they realized the potential size of their opponent if they knew they had another group headed their way. Also, making a charge when they were isolated on the same side of the opposing force was potentially a death sentence. Especially considering they would have no support from the larger group riding with Custer due to the river. They basically had an overwatch position but too far from their scouting unit that was sent across the river to give legitimate supporting fire. They should have been giving direct orders to not alert the opposing force until they could have Custers group in a position to pinch the camp from the north and on the same side of the river if they were going to still attack a larger force. Both southern and northern infil routes having been supported by fire teams in the event they needed to retreat back across to higher ground. Typical leapfrog tactics for a retreating force. Frankly, the only reason they were not overrun was likely due to the Native Americans likely believing there as potentially reinforcements inbound. And since the American forces there were not rallying another attack, that belief they were waiting on support would have been well founded. Plus, it would have been better to create distance just in case reinforcements were coming or the opposing force was rallying and preparing for another attack. Best to get the tribe further away likely to another position they could defend better and potentially get the non warriors and the wounded to a safe location away from the fighting forces.
It always troubles me when the bodies / and conditions of George Custer and Tom Custer are glossed over…. which they kinda do here. A few things::: 1. GAC wasn’t respected or honored by the Plains Indians (PI). There was NO reason for them not to mutilate his body unless they weren’t sure of his identity. There is the apocryphal story that a PI woman put awls in his ears because he wouldn’t listen. And an arrow shaft in his penis to shame his body. But in my opinion, this is taking the facts (the condition of GAC’s body) to fit the story. GAC was a hated enemy. If they truly knew his identity on the battlefield (btw, there were several officers that either wore full buckskins or partial buckskins in the battle, including Tom Custer), there is no doubt that he would’ve been fully mutilated. 2. Speaking of which, Tom Custer’s body was wreaked - head caved in, limbs mostly cut off, scalped, shot, gutted, deep slicing wounds down to the bone, pierced with almost 20 arrows (which happens when the hatred of the PI is so strong that even after their enemy is dead, they just fill the body up with arrow shot after arrow shot.) Tom Custer’s body, which was only yards away from GAC, was so mutilated that he was only recognized by the tattoo of his initials on his arm. So why was TC’s body wreaked, but GAC’s body left relatively unscathed? To me, there are 1 of 2 reasons: 1. Tom Custer was a 2 time Medal of Honor winner…which is practically unheard of. He was known as an unlikeable son of a bitch. And an absolutely demonic soldier. So it is entirely plausible that TC was such a barbaric and deadly fighter in this battle that after he was killed, the PI’s wanted to completely destroy and degrade his body. Yes. That’s possible and plausible. Or, 2. It’s even more likely that his maniacal battle prowess led the PI to assume/believe that he, in fact, was actually GAC. It should be noted that GAC’s hair was cut short before the battle. And TC’s hair was long. It is certainly feasible that the PI simply confused the 2 similarly dressed brothers. Hence, the vastly disparate treatment of the 2 bodies.
Two British giys talking about Custer's Last Fight!?? Yes, but you guys did a great job! I've been to the battle field and i can tell you that Custer Hill is not a hill, its a slope off of a plateau. And George and Tom were killed at the top of the slope, not down where their markers are. The markers were moved when the mass grave and monument were put at the top. The only two soldiers that were not mutilated were Custer and Myles Keogh. You KNOW that while they were surrounded and fighting for their lives the Custer was cussing up a blue streak at Benteen, "Where the HELL is Benteen!" "Damn him!"i agree that most of the blame lies with Crooke for not reporting the Rosebud fight, in which he personally preformed very poorly and came very close to losing his command. They were saved by quick thinking subordinate officers. And remember, the strategy that Custer used he had used with much sucess in the past. And Custer Hill was not the "Last Stand". There were many reports by the indians that told of a group of soldiers who broke and ran for the river and were chased down and died fighting elsewhere, but probably not in Deep Ravine. It's not clear exactly where though. 1:01:56
What “tactics” against a superior force could have resulted in a victory for Custer? His scouting reconnaissance provided size of village but not size & capability of the hostile force. Balancing the effectiveness of his own force (tired,drunken, low ammunition) with the element of surprise. Dividing his forces on rugged, hilly terrain made communication and coordination challenging. Lastly, they were outgunned by superior warriors who were provoked by his sneak attack on women & children thus fueling furious rage. Putting personality traits aside, I understand why Gen Terry, a cautious tactician, believed the battle was a huge blunder.
Honest criticism - it's what i do - I really love the format of the typical episodes, but the addition of title cards with the title music sting (which I normally love) - over played to the point of irritation. I endorse experimentation, but this detracted, for me.
Agreed. If they are trying to attract a larger audience on TH-cam all they need to do is upload their videos regularly. The corresponding podcast to this was released months ago.
Agreed. It needlessly interrupted the flow. The first couple of times, I had to look at my phone to make sure it didn't skip to another episode on it's own (that happens sometimes). I like that you are trying to make things better.....but this innovation, isn't one.
Jack Crabb : “I didn't say that. There are thousands of Indians down there. And when they get done with you, there won't be nothing left but a grease-spot. This ain't the Washita River, General, and them ain't helpless women and children waiting for you. They're Cheyenne braves, and Sioux. You go down there, General, if you've got the nerve.”. Quote from Little Big Man movie.
Regarding Benteen's orders to 'come quick' He knew full well that the surrounding area was likely full of Sioux,Cheyenne etc And that Custer was likely already engaged in a fight... Benteen's orders were clear already Get moving NOW QUICKLY BRING PACKS. leaves little room for question..especially for a senior combat officer.
It’s seems like the note indicates Custer wanted the supplies and ammo more than the extra men. If we assume the fight goes well for the army, Benteen would have looked horrible if he arrived fast but without the pack train. He was supposed to hasten the pack train which was well behind Benteen.
The archaeology book you mentioned examines the prevailing cavalry doctrine, including splitting of a regiment into battalions, as Custer did. Custer's first stand (Trevilian Station) is equally interesting - he had form.
Who's to blame? Custer of course. He underestimated the Indians will to fight back. He predicted they would run away when attacked by the Cavalry and simply give up whe Custer would capture their women and children because that's the behavior they demonstrated in Custer's previous battles. When the high Comand gave him this assignment, they expected a big number of Indians would gather at the Little Big Horn and suggested he should take at least two Gutlin Guns and additional weapons and men. He turned it down indicating that this operation would be quick and taking additional weapons would slow him down. He underestimated the number of Indian warriors and their will to fight back, coupled with his plan of attack which was based on his erroneous perceptions of past experiences. As a result, he didn't follow up with standard military procedures before an attack to make sure as to the size of the enemy. He made decisions on assumptions and he caused this tragedy. Had he listen to his scouts and only evaluate further what was ahead of him and call for reinforcements and them attack, the story would have been different.
I think it is possible that Custer was badly wounded when he tried to cross the river and that the Command Structure fell apart because they were so dependent on him. Crazy Horse took his men up on the ridge and in a sweeping arc hit them from the east.
"I asked CHAT Gpt where the indians got their rifles. From the Government, from trappers and from traders over several years. The Soldiers had ammunition... but they ran out of water to drink and could not go down to the river to get more water." Then CHAT Gpt said the indians had repeating Winchester rifles... the US Soldiers have single shot scofield rifles. So the 7th wasn't just outnumbered... the 7th was also outgunned. Custer gave the Indians the battle when he split into 3 smaller units".
I went to junior high a few miles south of Lawrence Kansas and on a school trip we went to that museum and saw Commanche stuffed behind glass and that is mostly all I remember about that trip.
❓What if Custers plan was that Reno was supposed to attack and then retreat? Drawing the Warriors to chase after them leaving the village undefended. Then Custer and his battalion could go in and capture the women and children with out resistance. He didn't plan that the horses were too tired to run in the retreat. Or that they were seriously out numbered and outgunned.
Yes, no trees in bighorn, but the contours of the land is super rugged, coulees, in french and there were many. Very deceptive battlefield were men can creep up rapidly
From up top Custer could see the entire village …they had what we have now….binoculars…. Custer damn well knew exactly where the village was and he had to have a idea that its stretched out about 3 miles
The troopers in Custer's direct command only had 50 rounds of carbine ammunition on them (they also carried a 6 shooter that might have had one reload of pistol ammunition). 50 rounds does not last very long in this kind of battle, you go through rounds very fast. Their only chance was for Benteen to immediately provide additional ammunition, but Benteen was too far to the South to come quickly. Custer's first mistake was dividing his command into 3 columns without knowing the numbers opposing him, but he was proceeding with the Military Intelligence he had which indicated only 800-1200 warriors-in reality there were 3000-4000. And forensic investigation of cartridge cases indicates that 200-300 repeating rifles were used in the fight-the vast majority of them by the Warriors who bought the rifles from Post Traders as ex Civil War stock. The terrain also helped the Warriors, it was full of coulees and ravines which allowed them to close with Custer's command without being under direct fire. The engagement was very similar to the British defeat at Isandlwana, where the Zulu used ravines to close with the British troops. Good review, but a little too much levity and 'yucking' for my taste. A little less flippant behavior would make it a lot more interesting, at the end of the day this was a tragedy for all involved-it wasn't a joke and shouldn't be treated as such even 150 years later.
Each trooper had 50 rounds of carbine ammunition on their person and another 50 in their saddle bags. They each carried 18 revolver rounds. In my opinion, one of the main causes of the defeat was the absence of sabres, because without a sabre you cannot fight on horseback. In effect, you become mounted infantry, and never in any battle have infantry in open order been able to stand against cavalry. This was subsequently rectified with the return of the sabre as late as WW1.
@@nigelsmith2457 Sabres might have helped, particularly during the Reno retreat across the river. The Warriors were allowed to essentially 'join' the flight across the river and wield their clubs and tomahawks at close quarters. As for carbine ammunition, rounds in the saddle bags were of no help-at no time in this fight did troopers have an opportunity to access those. You fight with what is on your immediate person and, as I noted, you go through those 50 rounds very quickly. Probably only 1 shot in 10 struck a target and only a some of those incapacitated a Warrior-that's normal for armed conflict like this, the Hollywood image of carefully aimed shots doesn't capture the intensity, rapidity and-yes-the panic during this fight. Pistol rounds are effective only at close quarters and by the time the Warriors got that close, they were in overwhelming numbers and the Troopers had been decimated by volleys of arrows and repeating rifle shots. More than a few Troopers used that last pistol round on themselves-the Sioux didn't take prisoners except to torture them-in the most painful of ways.
@@pimpompoom93726 The troopers had every opportunity to access their ammunition. It's a matter of organisation. You only need to look at similar actions such as Rorkes Drift to see that you need runners constantly supplying your front line. This didn't happen at LBH. You're correct in that sabres would have helped Reno during the crossing. Soldiers have reported that hostiles rode alongside them with their rifles across their saddles, shooting the troopers from their horses. Other say that the hostiles used their bows to snag the riders and pull them down. Sabres would have prevented them from coming close enough. In Custers situation, he was surrounded and had to shoot horses to give the men cover. They couldn't ride out because there was no deterrent to the hostiles. Sabres would have provided that deterrent, stopped the hostiles from closing on them, and allowed part of Custers battalion to get away.
@@nigelsmith2457 You are not familiar with US Cavalry tactics, who fought more like mounted infantry. They formed standing skirmish lines with one man in every 4 relegated to holding the reins of 4 horses. The horses were often massively agitated from the shooting and it was everything the man assigned to restrain them could do to maintain control. Breaking away from the skirmish line to retrieve more ammunition from the saddle bags was possible in theory, very difficult if not impossible in practice. Roarkes Drift is not a good comparison, those were infantry fighting within circled wagons and mealie bags and using runners to replenish troopers cartridge belts was far more practical. Having to use one Trooper to restrain horses reduced the US Cavalry strength by 25% right from the get-go, assigning runners to replenish ammunition pouches-if it even could have been performed-would further reduce fighting manpower. There were simply too many Indians that day, they were far better armed than expected and the 7th was overwhelmed by numbers-that's the reality.
@@pimpompoom93726 I am very familiar with US cavalry tactics of the period, thank you. So familiar, in fact, that I can tell you that once a man decides to get off of his horse, then he's no longer a cavalryman. He's an infantryman. And as I've previously stated, infantry in open order cannot stand against cavalry. The temporary removal of the sabre was subsequently rectified and restored, so someone in authority was obviously paying attention. At Rorkes Drift, there were approximately 150 men with breech loading carbines, facing 3000-4000 hostiles, yet they managed to organise ammunition supplies to the troops on the front line. At LBH, there were approximately 225 men with breech loading carbines, facing 3000-4000 hostiles, yet they could not manage to organise ammunition supplies to the troops on the front line. Forget the horse holders, even with 25% less men, Custer still had more troops and could have done this with better organisation. Finally, according to the accounts of many of the hostile natives, plenty of ammunition was found on the bodies of the US dead, which indicates that lack of ammunition wasn't the cause of the defeat.
Heads up for Tom and Dominic. I live in Kansas, saw Comanche in Lawrence. The display was dark (I did get pictures!) And it was "under review" so they might remove it from the museum on the KU campus.
I have studied the battle for over 30 years and while it is true nobody knows what exactly happened its fair to say after Richard Fox dig in 1984 we have a better idea of what happened and I would like to address some of your points , How did Custer end up on Last Stand Hill ? Well if we are to believe Painted Shield a Cheyanne woman a Party of soldiers possibly Company F approached the River when two Cheyanne warriors opened fire hitting a man in buckskins and a flag bearer , The buckskin man was helped back on his horse and the soldiers retreated , If this is true then Custer was mortally wounded at the start of the fight and its the reason why his HQ company never left Last Stand Hill . I would also like to point out that Skirmish lines were formed below Last Stand hill and to the left C, I , L , Companies with E company scouting to Custer's right near the Deep Ravine and F company with Custer on the Hill , Shell casings support this theory that each skirmish line was flanked and fell back to the next in line and grave markers again support this thesis until a trail of dead led up to Last Stand Hill , One exception was Company I with 15 men killed around Capt Keogh , The last troopers to fall seem to have been company E. The problem with the single shot Sharps Carbine was not it overheating but the shell extraction the copper casings tended to be soft and would flatten out when fired so extracting them would sometimes take a knife or tool but it was a very good carbine highly accurate up to 300-350 yards unlike the Henry or Winchester when had a max 200 yard effective range. After studying the battle so long I have come to the conclusion that Custer men put up a good fight it was not a rout until the first two skirmish lines were flanked that being C&L respectively after that I company seemed to have been completely taken by surprise as none virtually made it to Last stand hill but some of C & L did meaning they just ran straight past I Company. Thankyou.
The story of the Nez Perce war is equal in depth and contradictions. It involves Otis Howard the goat of Carlottesville and Gettysberg, a hero under Sherman, the leader of the Freed'smen bureau, the founder of Howard University and the bungling administrator of the Nez Perce tragedy.
Omitting the numerous accounts of Reno being intoxicated and seen drinking is a critical omission. It affected his handling of the battlefield events. He was "out of it" trying to find a dead friend and he was Benteens superior officer.
Tremendous series and will be at a loss when it concludes. I'm with Dominic that Benteen comes over as the man who saved what remained from certain destruction if they had tried to advance. Reno's comand is so depleted that the margin for error is tiny and any attempt at advance would have given the Lakota a much better opportunity to rout them. Need to look out for the Osprey books (?)
In the 1880s, the national Tribune began publication in Washington DC. At one point the magazine published part one of the reminiscences of Reno. I believe the reaction of the subscribers was so negative that the magazine refused to publish anymore of Reno’s writings. The national Tribune later became the stars and stripes.
There is a very good "Battlefield Detectives" documentary on TH-cam concerning a relatively recent archeological survey of the battlefield which focuses on the number and location of recovered shell casings and bullets. The picture which emerges from this evidence supports the Indian accounts that there was no "last stand" , but rather a panicked rout as soldiers put up nominal resistance and most were massacred trying to flee for their lives.
As for Custer's 'Blunder' and diving headlong into the attack/dividing his force. It has to be taken into consideration..this is only my own thoughts of course. 1#Custer believed his force had been seen and therefore now open to an attack...at the moment his force was in no position to repel an attack..Cavalry strength is mobility and going on the attack. So he had 2 choices Sit there and wait for an attacking force to come over the hills and annihilate his force where they stand. OR Go on the attack..where Cavalry excells. But he knew he needed support..Benteen wasnt going to be enough,Thats why he ordered Benteen to move quick and bring the packs. Splitting his forces..Not a good idea im sure he was aware of..but what to do? I dont think he had any illusions about winning a 'toe-to-toe' fight against an overwhelming force and bring the fight to an end by killing enough warriors..Its obvious he would have known he didnt have enough troops and ammo to win that sort of fight. BUT If he could capture women&childten and hold them so the warriors would back down..in my opinion that was certainly possible but he needed simultaeneous support from Benteen and Reno. If that was his plan..it fell apart as soon as Reno hit the southern end of the village..there was no way Reno was going to stop and block the amount of warriors coming at him. Custer needed Reno to draw warriors south away from the northern end of the village and Benteen to arrive in a timely manner and give further support.
Reno left the relative safety of the cottonwoods as he realized he was facing far more gunfire than expected. The killing of his scout was in my opinion more myth than the reality
As a native Califorian I just found out that I love hearing US history from the mouths of 2 Englishmen. They are serious about the subject matter but not so serious as to be dull and boring. Their humor and wit are just enough to entertain you and keep you chuckling. Just found this channel and will be here to stay.
Can't hear u for your laughter Sirs Buckle down eh God Jesus Bless US and UK Try Dubay Fire Within and Fatima vision of Vatican No more WW
Best single quote I’ve heard from a survivor “If we’d been led by braver men, we’d all been killed”
Well that witness would say that, wouldn’t he.
And I may add, I’d give credit to the man who was there that said the quote and not the armchair general.
Best quote I've ever heard about the topic. "Don't forget it was the last stand for the Indian too".
Custers entire command together would've been a tough nut to crack for the Indians. They just weren't organized enough for set piece battles like that
I wish many more people hear about Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland. These guys are the most watchable historians on TH-cam--knowledgeable, insightful, good-natured and fair. Loved this absorbing 8-part series on the Battle of Little Bighorn and watched some episodes two or three times. Not just for the light shed on the personalities and motives of the men who fought there--Custer, Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Gall, Reno and Benteen--but also for the analysis of background events in the Grant administration that brought them together in that remote spot in southeastern Montana on Sunday, June 25, 1876. I must confess I also thoroughly enjoyed the droll character sketches of George Crook and Alfred Howe Terry. Great stuff, gentlemen. I wish your channel all success.
don't know anything about Hollad, but Sandbrook's articles on the Ukraine war are crap. I guess it figures since he works for Times Radio.
Much of Custer's legend was enhanced by the Anheuser Bush Brewing Company comishining prints of the "last stand" which appeared for decades over virtually every bar in America. Fallen Timbers was actually the worst defeat by US forces to a Native arms. Over 1000 men killed during George Washington's administration.
Thomas Berger's novel - Little Big Man - is my favorite novel. It is much better than the film, and more balanced in how it portrays the clash of vastly different civilizations never quite able to make sense of each other.
@@BondJames-vz5wkAgreed, I’m not a huge fan of either of their politics (especially Sandbrook’s) but love this podcast all the same
@@michaelcooley4553 You have your battles confused. The worst defeat the U.S. Army ever suffered by Native Americans was St. Clair's Defeat. This battle took place in western Ohio, along the Wabash River, but it did occur during Washington's administration. The Natives killed close to 900 soldiers, camp followers and contractors. At the time, that figure represented approximately one-quarter of the entire U.S. Army.
The Battle of Fallen Timbers occurred three years later in 1794. In a short but decisive battle, General "Mad" Anthony Wayne routed the same Indian confederation that wiped out General St. Clair's forces.
@@isaac_rodriguez17The most intolerant people by far are left wing cry babies , do you need a bottle , blanket and binky?
I enjoy all your podcasts, but the episodes on the Little Big Horn had me riveted throughout. What characters! And how you brought them vividly to life. Well done, and very many thanks.
Growing up less than 60 miles away from the Little Bighorn Battlefield, I too was fascinated with the stories of what happened on that fateful day. I read every book I could get my hands on and spent many time at cemetery as my uncle was buried there (and eventually my grandparents). As you mentioned, the irony of the Native Americans and Sitting Bull's great victory meant their future defeat was near. But if you go to the battlefield today, you will see something that was not there where I was a kid. It is the honor that is given to the Native warriors who won that day, not just Custer and the 13th Cavalry. You will also see the hope that we can live with each other, sharing Montana.
Who was to blame? Well, the Indians of course. They beat Custer. It wasn't that Reno and Benteen failed, it was that the Indians succeeded.
The thing I think people forget regarding the Springfield trap door rifles is that, yes they were single shots, but they shot the 45-70 cartridge. Even today that cartridge is held in high regards by hunters. It was a better and more powerful long range cartridge than the Winchesters and Henry’s which shot the weaker 44 rim fired and the 44-40s. If you could keep the fire up from a skirmish line and keep an enemy at a distance the Springfields would have had the advantage of being better at long distance.
But if troopers were exposed in the open while warriors could storm and close the distance or use ravines to conceal their movement while they closed the distance under full cover protected from the cavalry’s fire, the weakness of the Winchesters and Henry’s cartridges would have been negated, their shorter range disadvantage being replaced by the great advantage of being repeater rifles. At shorter distances there was no comparison.
The cartridge may be longer range in a rifle, but they had carbines with very short barrels and an effective range of only about 300 yards. They also found many fallen troopers had broken knives by them which would have been from trying to pry jammed cartridges out of the guns. Post battle, it was found much of the 7th ammo was copper not brass cartridges which would jam. Low bidders no doubt. The Henry repeaters in particular had much better ranges and the Indians knew their guns. Indians, survivors and the archeology backs it up that the troopers were out ranged. Carbines were standard issue for cavalry due to size and weight. They also had warehouses left over from the Civil War and the Army had no budget for new longer ranged rifles as well as new ammunition. Many officers also did not like the rate troopers used ammunition in repeaters and preferred the single shot guns simplifying supply. US Calvary used the 7 shot spencer repeaters in the Civil War, but in the west were issued the single shot carbines.
@@jamesb4789 I’m sure the carbine fired those rounds at a slower velocity than the rifles, but they would certainly be effective for 200 yards. Once you are out in the realm of 200-300 yards with iron sights it becomes rather moot without a scope. Those 44-40s out of a rifle are a lot like shooting 45 colt or even 357 out of a rifle or carbine. Hunters today tend to refuse to shoot those rounds much beyond 100 yards because those bullets start dropping like a brick beyond that. I’ve seen mention of modern hunters with those kinds of rifles trying to keep ranges down closer to 75 yards. The carbines would still have had some advantage at ranges past 100 yards.
Most of the Calvary were not good shots if they even could use their rifles. Custer was more into matching horse colors. In the Civil War it was found the velocity of fire was more important that single fire weapons. Also, Crazy Horse circled behind.
@@jamesb4789 sorry but 44 Henry Rim fire and 44-40 could not out range the 45-70, even if the latter was fired out of a carbine length barrel. It’s comparing the equivalent of handgun cartridges out of a rifle vs actual rifle cartridges from a rifle. To say that they could is like saying 45 Colt out of a rifle could equal or surpass 45-70. And the 44 Henry Rimfire had even worse ballistics than the 44-40.
You are right about jams being problematic, but you have to remember that metallic cartridges were still a relatively new concept and there were growing pains in its development post Civil War.
Even so, while jams did occur, why didn’t Reno’s smaller force get wiped out? Either in the woods but especially up on the hill? Where are the countless mentions of trapdoors failing them? They had the same equipment as Custer’s battalion. I would imagine that failing rifles in the midst of a live or die situation would have become a major theme of the history of that defense.
The trapdoors used were model 1873. These were not left over civil war stock but were new. Not to mention that this cartridge (45-70) was first invented specifically for the Springfield trapdoor model 1873. They were both relatively new in service.
Lastly, I would hypothesize that Reno’s defensive position on the hill afforded his troops a good open field of fire to really utilize the 45-70. Yes they did take some long distance fire from natives but I seriously doubt these were from Henrys. Some Natives did have other rifles, some of which could shoot across long open distances such as Sharps rifles. I presume that Custer and Keogh’s defensive positions didn’t afford them the same protection. There are numerous gullies that run up towards those positions. It’s also why Reno had to withdraw during his initial engagement in the valley at the start of the fight. If the enemy was able to close faster than your single shots could keep them at distance, you could be threatened with being overrun. I don’t think this is any real indication of inherent problems with the Springfields but of tactics.
Fantastic guys. Thank you for this series! 🙏
Who's to blame? Isn't it Custer? He was rushed, split his forces, and gave the orders. He underestimated his opponent and paid the price.
The best forensics commentary on Custer's Last Stand!
Great discussion! It was indeed an absolutely epic situation all around. Custer, Sitting Bull, and Crazy Horse were all "larger than life" characters with extraordinary personal stories and great charisma, and so their names have lived on and will long be remembered.
A couple of comment that clarify some things.
1. The expedition plan was a three prog advance to pen in the tribes and escort them back to the reservation. Custer and Reno were at the briefing so at least Reno knew the plan. Custer's orders were to join up with General Terry on the Big Horn River a few miles from Reno Hill on June 27th. IF Custer's 7th had moved the standard distances normal for the heat and terrain, he would have reached the rendezvous on the evening of the 26th. Instead, Custer lead forced marches to get there early on the 25th including marching nearly all night on the 24th/25th. Why?
2. Every survivor said the same thing, the horses were exhausted when they arrived at the Little Big Horn. They rested on a short time with minimal water for the horses. By the time the battle was engaged, the horses no longer could gallop. The field was large and sprawling. what was a distance of over 3 miles as the crow flies between Reno and Custer was in reality closer to 7 on good riding terrain. In that era, a mile of distance is more like 10 to us. By the time the message arrived telling Benteen to hurry forward, it was in reality too late because the horses could not move fast enough.
3. Civilians think all rifles sound the same, but the truth is an experienced trooper could tell the difference. They knew the Indians had many repeaters because of the sounds. It also is very important to realize they also knew the repeaters in the hands of good rifleman had twice the effective range of the single shot carbines which were left over and out of date Civil War weapons. The Indian tactics had their riflemen pinning down the troopers while others crept forward and used arrows as indirect fire on Calhoun Hill and Last Stand Hill. The tactic did not work as well on Reno's hill because the terrain was different (few ravines) and the men built and dug rough rifle pits. The low Indian losses reflect this.
4. Before leaving for the Big Horn campaign, Custer met with representatives of the Democrat party about running for President. Notes survived from the meeting and Custer understood he needed to claim the victory and the glory to get the nomination. That quest explains the forced marches and not waiting per orders. Custer himself had only two tactics. Charge blindly or in the West take hostages. During the Civil war his units had the highest losses in the entire US army. What people ignore is sending in Reno would have been a tactic for Reno to draw off the warriors while he rode around and seized the women and Children as hostages, something he did before. It explains the report of observing Reno's attack falter, but he continued on to grab hostages. Initial reports in the Army show utter disgust at Custer and put the blame on him. The shift to Benteen and Reno was a direct result of Custer's Widow launching what is effectively a propaganda campaign. It worked because the Indian wars were slowly coming to an end and the Army was afraid to fight back when budgets were being cut. Custer's widow came from a prominent family with connections which also was a factor. And it was the beginning of the period known as "yellow journalism" with everyone writing outlandish tales to sell cheap papers and books.
The fault lies on Custer's shoulders, period. Reno's attack never had a chance with tired men and horses across rough terrain. Benteen never had enough men to make a difference to Custer and he made the correct decision. Custer divided up his forces with no regard to reality, and he had an agenda for a glorious victory. You also failed to mention Custer's chest wound was not fatal. The bullet to the temple was and there were gun powder burns indicating suicide.
jamesb4: Clarify things? Clarify things, my ass. Your comments are ridiculous, flawed and unfounded.
Nowhere in his orders to him does General Terry specify an exact date when his column would meet up with Custer at the Little Bighorn River. Given the terrain the Montana column had to traverse, it was not possible to give an exact date, but General Terry did, offhandedly, mention a "possible" date of June 26.
While following the Indian trail up the Rosebud River, en route to the Little Bighorn valley, Custer did not "force march" his regiment. The Seventh Cavalry rode about 25 miles a day - sometimes a little more, sometimes less. Thirty miles a day was an average march for cavalrymen on a campaign trail. On the evening of June 24th, Custer ordered a night march in order to get closer to his objective. The column mounted up at 11:00 pm, and it rode until 2:00 am - hardly an "all night march".
By the way, dimwit, at the Little Bighorn, the troopers of the Seventh Cavalry were not using "left over and out of date Civil War weapons". They were using Model 1873, trapdoor, Springfield carbines. The effective range of this weapon was superior to any Winchester or Henry repeater.
On June 25th, Custer's initial plan was to conceal his regiment, rest his men and horses, reconnoiter the area around the village with his scouts, then attack the village on June 26th - which was the very day the Terry/Gibbon column was purportedly suppose to arrive from the north.
For all of that, during the early morning hours of June 25, Custer's scouts informed him that the regiment had likely been observed by wandering Sioux and Cheyenne hunting parties; as such, Custer's Indian scouts wanted him to attack the village as soon as possible, but Custer still wanted to wait until the 26th to attack. Later that morning, more news filtered in that proved, without a doubt, that the Indians were aware of the Seventh Cavalry's presence.
Once Custer received this latest intelligence, he altered his plans and wisely decided to take the advice of his scouts by attacking the village that very day - June 25th. And the truth of the matter is this: Custer's only viable option was to attack the village as soon as possible. If he waited, the Natives in the village would have had ample time to scatter and flee. Such a result would have compromised the goal of the entire campaign - which was to find the Indians, and prevent them from escaping.
Moreover, if Custer decided to wait, he would have been putting his entire regiment at risk. The warriors in the village, knowing the Bluecoats were near, likely would have tried to ambush the regiment at a time and place of their own choosing.
The horses were tired, sure, but they could no longer gallop? Really? Where the hell do you get this information? What are your sources? There are no accounts whatsoever that say the horses of the Seventh Cavalry were dropping out in droves from thirst and exhaustion. Incidentally, Boston Custer managed to move fast enough to catch up with his older brother, and he was with the pack train, but you're saying Benteen's horses could not? Did Benteen not spend around 20 minutes watering his horses at the morass? And when he was on his scout, and in order to spare tiring out the horses of his battalion, didn't Benteen assign the traversing of all those hills to a small detail of men led by Lt. Gibson? Yes, he did.
Prior to the Little Bighorn, "Custer met with representatives of the Democratic party about running for President", huh? Again, where in the hell do you get your "facts"? Seriously, I'd like to know. Here's a bonafide fact for you: there is not a modicum of historical evidence that suggests George Armstrong Custer was vying for the Presidency of the U.S. As a matter of fact, his wife dissuaded him from any kind of political ambitions because she thought it didn't suit him, and Custer readily agreed with her.
Custer's chest wound was not fatal, eh? This was the wound near his heart, where all the blood was, but it wasn't fatal, huh? And the bullet wound to Custer's temple indicated suicide? That's funny, because historians and scholars all agree that George Armstrong Custer did not possess the temperament or wherewithal to commit self-slaughter; he would have went down fighting to the end. Besides, right-handed people aren't apt to shoot themselves in the left temple.
Your comment makes little sense, Jamesb4. You should do a lot more research b4 posting erroneous, half-baked, and opinionated comments on public platforms such as TH-cam. Then again, maybe you enjoy embarrassing yourself with your ignorance.
Clarify things? Clarify things. My ass.
.44 rimfire repeaters don't have half the effective distance of the calvary's .45-70's.
You clearly don't know anything about guns and this leads me to believe you are wrong about everything else too. Looking to sound smart and informed when you're an actual cave man. Like an actual hairy caveman. From the Geico commercial !
very well evaluated, I think you're right..trying to get a tired horse to move at pace is impossible
Observations...
1. It was assumed in the meeting that Custer would ignore the join-up order, because he was Custer.
2. The horses were spent, yet Custer managed to get those miles away with so called spent mounts.
3. The carbines were Springfield model 1873, so were not CW leftovers. Estimates of Indian KIAs range from 100-300 while cavalry KIAs were 258. Considering the split US command and the overwhelming odds of the Indians, the Indian KIAs were not especially low.
4. Numerous troopers did not put the blame on Custer and Capt. Weir obviously did not. Some troopers accused Reno of being drunk. Both Reno and Benteen were eventually driven out of the service for their drunken ways (Benteen pulled some strings to be reinstated).
To say the fault lies with Custer is entirely subjective. His tactics were sound based on previous experiences with hostile Indians. Reno/Benteen spent about an hour doing nothing after they joined forces (before Weir made his 1 mile ride to find the Indians mopping up the last of Custer's command). It is entirely feasible that if upon joining Reno and Benteens commands could have advanced to Custer (largely unopposed), and if Reno/Benteen's commands survived then certainly the entire 7th rejoined would have. Whether Custer committed suicide is entirely moot and smacks of a bias rather than analysis of the cold hard facts.
If you get an invitation to a party and these two guys are going to be there..... GO! Entertaining, informative.... wonderful.
Found Dominic and Tom last year while absorbing all I could about the fall of the Aztecs. Of course, I stumbled upon their epic series on the fall of the Me-shee-ka. I became a subscriber after the first episode, and I must say it’s probably the best investment I’ve ever made entertainment wise. As an American, I learned more about Custer and his final days through this series than my previous 40 years in the states. So informative, gripping, hilarious at times, and haunting. A true masterpiece of storytelling. But it’s like this with all subjects these gentlemen dive into. I look forward in anticipation to every time Theo drops a new gem. I’ve also recently read Tom’s Rubicon and have three of Dom’s Adventure in Time books on the way for me and kiddos. Thanks for all that you do fellas.
Yesterday i finished reading Custer's My Life on the Plains. Utterly fascinating. Very much enjoyed this podcast and will now go straight to episode one and watch the rest. Great stuff chaps, thank you.
Good to recognize the unique achievements of the Indians in this campaign. The Indians had never put together such force before and properly handled it.
I cant wait for the new episodes on WW1 and Franz ferdinand to be uploaded, listened to the first ep and found out you were on location so patiently waiting for hopefully a video version :)
Absolutely fantastic series. You remind me of and then I bought the Custer archaeology book.
I also quite liked your epic series on Cortes and Montezuma and the fall of his empire.
❤you guys! You covered one of my favorite stories so well. I really enjoyed your point of view. Will be listening more. ❤ from Alabama USA
That was great historic coverage! I quickly learned that the Indian leaders had a clear strategy. Custer on the other hand was very aware of the times that R.E Lee and Stonewall Jackson split up their forces and were successful in doing it. Yet the lesson that he should have learned from them is the fact that they didn’t have an ego problem with slipping out of an area at night when they knew they were outnumbered. The Indian scouts had to know those numbers. Sometimes when the ego rules intelligence drools.
Thank you for this insight of Custer. I feel like I know him at this point.
This series should be taught in American history classes, incredible!
In my opinion. Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull are some of the best American military generals that rank right up there with Grant, Patton and Eisenhower. It’s a shame that they don’t get the recognition they truly deserve.
Gradually they are getting the recognition they deserve. The Cheyenne are described world wide as the finest light cavalry ever.
I think these guys podcasts should be part of our schools curriculum..i think kids would listen and lean more
What might be an interesting counterpoint to the US Army’s experience at Little Bighorn is the British Army’s experience in South Africa only three years later. In January 1879, a British expeditionary force under Lord Chelmsford was surprised by a massive assault by Zulu impis at Isandlwana. Utilising their hallmark tactic of head, horns, and loins formation, the estimated 15,000 Zulu warriors attacked a British column of over 1,800 men, putting them to rout and killing more than 1,300.
However, at the nearby outpost of Rorke’s Drift, a mere 139 British troops held out successfully against successive assaults by a force of approximately 4,500 Zulu warriors, inflicting severe casualties on the native attackers. In this engagement, the 24th Foot suffered but 17 men killed in action and ten wounded, while the Zulu attackers are believed to have lost more than 500 men.
Thus Reno’s Hill and Rorke’s Drift may provide instructive counterpoints to Last Stand Hill and Isandlwana. In combat, discipline, firepower, and intelligent leadership proved to be the trump card.
Fantastic series. Born in 68, this was my first SERIOUS interest in an event of history. I even eventually served with the seventh on the DMZ in Korea. Their NCO Club was amazing, huge mural of the battle on the wall. Benteen is celebrated for putting his command first. Custer not so much.
Having visited the battle site in Montana my first reaction was that the area is quite confined considering the geography and it would’ve been fairly easy for Custer, Benteen and Reno to ascertain the number of Sioux, Cheyanne, etc warriors they were up against and wait at a distance for reinforcements. Clearly arrogance was at the core of this “blunder”.
It seems small to us because we are used to greater distances and much faster speed. If you want to understand it, ride a horse on the field. I grew up near Gettysburg and you cannot understand the battle unless you walk it, especially Picket's Charge. Little Big Horn is he same. I was there in the late 60's with the family and we did a horseback tour. Years later I was there and just drove around and it is a different world.
Why do they blame Reno Benteen Custer divided his forces all for the glory he would get instead of he was responsible for the death of 3-4 companies
I reckon Benteen was the best officer there
That's a crock of shit. It was Custer's regiment. He was in command. If the Seventh Cavalry won the day, Custer would have received his laurels. He didn't need to divide his forces in order to achieve glory; Custer would have received glory for himself, and his regiment, if the Seventh had a victory. Custer wanted his regiment to win the battle, you idiot. If his subordinate officers (Reno and Benteen) happened to receive accolades for a successful battle, so be it. Custer would have received his honors too; after all, it was his regiment, and he was in charge of it.
Custer divided his forces because, when attacking an Indian village - especially a large one - it was best to hit the village from different directions, using 2 or 3 separate battalions. This was a tried and true maneuver in Indian warfare called an "envelopment" tactic.
I read Stephen A Abrose's dual biography on Custer & Crazy Horse years ago. It was phenomenal! highly recommend it.
George Custer's wife came from an extremely wealthy and politically connected family. And either due to her having mental health issues, her thinking this would help their family gain fame & money, or getting a form of joy from it - she treated George with a blind worship for their whole marriage that few people show their spouses. (Abrose's book contains letters to prove this)
After she heard of George's death, she went to great lengths and spent a deal of money to give her husband a squeaky clean legacy and to find and lambaste every possible officer who could have failed that day.
Completely agree. Can’t see how a sustained charge of Reno’s 150 or so inexperienced men would have changed much. They’d possibly have created an initial panic among the native women and children but would have been quickly surrounded on all sides by rallying Lakota warriors. Reno’s lack of nerve ironically saved lives of those cavalrymen who were able to retreat to the bluffs. The responsibility for defeat lies 1) with Terry who relegated command to Custer, and 2) with Custer who failed to properly scout the enemy and the terrain and made a rash a decision being guided by consideration of his future glory and financial and political gain rather than by military necessity.
@@alehhandro1 Not a few Native accounts stated that, "had Reno's battalion carried its charge through the village, the Bluecoats might have won the day" Reno's 150 men surprised and shocked the Indians in the village. Whether it's 150 men or 550 men, that's what a cavalry charge does - it creates chaos and panic. When Reno first appeared at the south end of the village, he caught the Sioux by surprise. Many of the warriors ran to fetch their ponies that were located on a broad bench-land almost a quarter-of-a-mile west of their camp. In short, Major Reno wasn't facing hundreds of warriors upon his initial approach, He had the upper hand, and he had the element of surprise; yet, for all of that, Reno did not press his advantage by charging; instead, he halted his command, dismounted, and formed skirmish lines. That was the first of his many errors.
After suffering very few casualties, Reno withdrew his battalion into a stand of timber located about 200 yards away from the village. That timber provided Reno's troops with perfect defensive positions; as a matter of fact, it was the best protected spot on the entire battlefield. Reno's Arikara scouts, who were usually pessimistic, even said: "the soldiers, while in the timber, could have held out there indefinitely". But what did Major Reno do? Instead of ordering his men to hunker down an dig in, he retreated. Not only did Reno retreat, he led the way. In that mad dash to the perceived safety of a hilltop on the other side of the river, half of Reno's men ended up dead, wounded, and missing.
If you knew anything about the Little Bighorn battle, you would know the reasons why Custer "failed" to properly scout the enemy and terrain. You would also know that Custer made no rash judgements, and "financial" or "political gains" played no part in his decision-making that day. You're an unread dimwit, handro
There was no way the Lakota and Cheyenne were going to do a Zulu-like charge against Reno and Benteen's 350 troops who were dug in and pretty concentrated. They lacked the discipline to take the sort of casualties they would incur overrunning the position, casualties they could not readily replace as a people.Furthermore, by keeping the survivors of the 7th pinned down the Lakota achieved their goal of protecting the village. When Terry approached they sensibly rode off.
I wonder what would happen if the 2 sides were even, it's known that the overwhelming numbers of the Indians put Custer at a complete disadvantage, the 7th was outnumbered 3-1 overall I think. But what if the number of warriors and troopers were equal?
Different outcome
What would have happened if the 7th had the Gatling guns ???
I can't believe I've never heard this podcast before. My dad's dad's dad AND my dad's mom's dad were both in Custer's 7th Calvary. Why is it English people narrate American history more eloquently and coherently than "Merican folks" do?
English people are famous more being eloquent.
Depending on the region yes, Liverpool, Luton ect are examples of the opposite in many cases lmao@@MikeBarat-u5n
That’s pretty cool, what were their names?
Great work gentlemen - thank you!
Are you lads gonna release more episodes on TH-cam? Oh go on!
"Little Big Man" is a forgotten classic. It was a revolutionary film in it's time, yet has dissapeared into obscurity.
Who or what was to blame ? 1) Custer. Arrogant, full of ambition, and contemptuous of his foe (that can lead you to underestimate them). 2)Custer again---his Scouts are telling him they sign of the biggest village they have ever seen, and what does he do? He splits his command in to 3 parts. Most Commanders told by Scouts that he was facing a far superior force would not split their command. 3) This might be the most important factor. The 1873 Springfield Rifle , when fired fast (as in a fast moving battle) would jam. The empty shell would be jammed in the overheated rifle and have to be removed with a knife. Troopers have a hot useless rifle and are now reduced to using their sidearms, which have far less range. At this points, the Native American's Bow and Arrows have more range. If many of the Native Americans had more reliable rifles, they would just continue to pour fire on the soldiers. The question I have is did the Army high ups know about this fault the rifle had before this battle . Or was it this battle that made it clear.?
There is the possibility that Benteen believed so strongly in Custer's persona that he believed that Custer was likely winning not believing he could be defeated so totally, likely partially in shock of the battles and facing his own demise. Something else that we will never really know. Custer could not have died any other way than in battle.
Thank you both very much for your great telling of the build up , battle and aftermath of the battle of the little big horn. You make a great double act. Keep it going!
Thank you so much
Keep this up. Love.
Great descriptions of the aftermath of a complete fiasco, gave me a better picture of the American manifest destiny, the American dream if you will. Great conversation. Thx. 👍
When Benteen reached Reno (about 2:05), both their troops heard volleys from couple miles north (where Custer had ridden). A volley is an organized, dismounted, under-pressure defensive tactic, so Benteen and Reno knew that Custer was in a defensive position in a hard fight. At the Reno inquiry B and R claimed they heard no volleys but most of the other witnesses, including a hard-of-hearing officer, said they heard volleys. I presume B and R were lying to exculpate themselves. Custer's note said "Big Indian Village. Bring Paks. Be Quick." At this time most of the Indians attacking Reno ran northward toward the Custer gunfire. Reno then spends 40 minutes hiking down toward the river to find the body of his slain adjutant, during which time Custer, Keogh and Calhoun are fighting for their lives. Around 2:40 Weir, a pal of Custer, contrary to Benteen's orders, starts his company north to arrive at Weir Point about 3:10. B and R follow but they all turn back when they see Indians headed toward them from the north, where they also saw Indians shooting down into the ground. Years later in letters, Benteen admits he detested Custer and was glad Custer, his two brothers, his nephew, his brother-in-law and his adjutant were killed. Benteen didn't exactly follow orders, but from accounts of Reno survivors, one gets the picture that the numbers of Indians vastly outweighed soldiers in all three fights -- Reno charge, Reno defensive and Custer-Calhoun battle. Hard job. Hard life.
The reports also made it clear the gun fire was mostly rifles not the Army Carbines carried by the Troopers. The more experienced men could tell the difference and it is clear the volume of Indian fire was most likely what was heard. I also think you assume it is troopers but why? Volley fire was rarely used by troopers in the west. From what I read, some of it was most likely Indian ambushes or even the pauses while they worked up to attack. You are also misunderstanding the time line. Benteen arrived somewhere between 2:00 and 2:10 at Reno's position. Weir came up with the pack mules at about 2:30/2:40. By the time he began to move the firing had died down to a steady but reduced level. Most evidence points to Indians finishing off wounded and stragglers from Custer's 5 companies. Weir and his men moved only about a mile before encountering a large force of warriors and they had to ride for their lives back to Reno's Hill. Reports from the Indians indicate most of the warriors left the Last Stand Hill and moved to attack Reno so it makes sense, but it also means Custer was probably dead by the time Weir got to Reno's position.
Time for events in this period of history is very difficult. No one had standardized watches and they never bothered to coordinate them before an attack. Nor was there "secretaries" or aides keeping logs. Always take such references as approximations only.
@@jamesb4789 I am using TH-cam video Custer's Last Stand Timeline Analysis Animation for timing. Agree timing is uncertain. Have read no accounts that Indians fired in unison as in volleys. Only accounts were that they popped up and shot individually. Survivors from Reno report their initial skirmish line utilized volleys.
One of the most valuable findings of Foxes archeology was confirmation the .45-55-305 cartridges issued to the 7th were experimental, made of copper (not brass/gilding metal), which had a tendency to become stuck in the chamber during periods of sustained fire. Fox recovered many fired cases that exhibited signs of being extracted with the blade of a pocket knife. Just consider how that affected rates of fire.
One of the things that strikes me is throwing out that Benteen and Reno were cowards, Reno was drunk, and Benteen was so petty that he refused to follow orders. Both Benteen and Reno saw heavy action in the Civil War and were decorated for their actions. Reno being drunk is primarily based on one soldier who he had disciplined for stealing food. Drinking on duty was not viewed then as it is today, look at Grant in the Civil War. And as for him being drunk during the battle, how much liquor would he be carrying? They start out talking about the fact that Custer had run his forces hard the day before, then got them up to move at night, and then takes them into battle early on, but drop that later. If you get out to the battle field and look at the terrain and the think about Benteen's movements. Custer had him scouting out from where he was split off. His three companies had ridden up and down two ridges. He sent a small group to scout up a third and when they returned with no sightings, the unit had to retrace up and down that same difficult terrain. By the time they get to the creek, they need to water the horses and they have already ridden miles further and have to catch up with the rest of the 7th Cavalry. When they meet up with Reno, he is outranked and Reno's forces are in disarray, there is no way he could move out immediately.
Hello gents. If you ever deign to visit this area (I live in Sheridan, about an hours drive south), I suggest visiting in June. It's by far the most beautiful time of year here.
I’ve been waiting
Great series! Who doesn't love a Coulee?
Marcus Reno was definitely not a coward. He served on the staff of Torbert‘s cavalry corps. When Sheridan left in the valley and joined Grant at Petersburg, Torbert and Reno stayed behind. Reno led a number of scouting expeditions in March 1865. I believe he engineer the surrender of John Mosby, the gray ghost.
He panicked at the Little big horn.
@@lddcavalryHe did. And he didnt do his legacy any favors there. But I think simply calling him a coward is a bit simplistic and too black and white.
@@lddcavalry he initially showed bravery but he was outnumbered and flanked. Most would wither after the butt whooping he took.
He got post traumatic syndrome after bloody knife's brains splatter over his face. Something they didn't know about at the time. Also didn't Custer let him down by not following him into the charge.
The term 'Sioux' is a French bastardisation of the Ojibwe term Nadowessioux, meaning 'little snakes', as they had been long time foes. There was no Sioux people, nation, or language. They were mostly Lakota tribes, who inhabited the northwestern plains, and they fought alongside the Cheyenne, Kiowa and Arapaho. One of my 4x great grandmothers was apparently one of the last women to speak her native Algonquin language. She was the daughter of an Irish soldier who had fought in the Civil War and a Pequot mother, named Nora White Feather. I grew up learning quite a few of the old customs, which were taught to me by a man called John Running Deer, who was a Chickahominy elder, and his wife, when I was a child in Williamsburgh, Va, back in the late-1960s. I still have the piece of coral they gave me, which is a treasured possession.
Frederick Whitaker was the adjutant for the third cavalry, division, army of the Potomac cavalry corps In 1863 he was on the staff of hJudson Kilpatrick. In 1864 he served on the staff of James H. Wilson. Custer took over the division after Winchester and Whitaker then served on Custers staff. The officers and men of the third division worshiped Custer. He wore a red necktie, so they all started wearing red neck ties. Whitaker won the medal of honor for his services with the third division.
I watched a doco on the forensic search of Little Big Horn.
Studies show that many of Custer's troop were in poor health. Skulls show a lot of tooth decay. Some were mere boys.
My gosh guys this is great! Ive researched this battle a million times but i have just learned so many numerous things that i previous missed. Thanks!
I spent a week in 1993 visiting the LBH battlefield and the 7th Cav route from their Yellowstone camp. I enjoyed this series immensely. I concluded that Custer's battalion fell quickly. 7th Cav cartridge finds on Luce & Nye Cartwright ridges indicate a running fight to Calhoun hill- Finley ridge from Medecine Tail coulee.. Thereafter a 'buffalo hunt' all the way to last stand hill. I doubt that Custer HQ group (plus E and F cos) ever travelled to a northern ford looking for captives (ford D). Last stand hill was about as far north as the 7th cavalry got IMHO. Maybe at most onto a part of cemetery ridge.
I just finished viewing ur video of the 7th cavalry and the battle of the little big horn. I must thank U both for the way it was presented in its fair and unimpartial way. American education for what ever reason has a tendency 2 distort facts and truth . U have shown to " err is human to forgive is divine " this plight of the native American and the American governments disingenuous behavior was the the motivator for the irreparable events that followed. The Indian won the battle but lost the war and they still fight today to reright the injustices of the past. I also now have a different take on the brave heros of the 7th calvary, however I look at the command staff of the 7th in a more realistic light having served in the US army circa Viet Nam. U guys were great in Ur presentation thank U, I look to the future for new episodes from U 😊
Hey, I’ve been listening to a lot of different accounts plus your account of the battle of the little big horn recently. I had the pleasure to actually go there and I was overwhelmed by the size of this battlefield for that day in that terrain and I thought that Custer was over his head to begin with, and how he thought that he ever had the upper hand is beyond me that being said there’s a bigger defeat by the United States Army I believe in the late 1890s in Ohio where the United States army lost about 90%, including civilians in a battle with the Indians in northern Ohio northeast Ohio western Indiana in that area and that is something that you guys should talk about
The battle of the Maumee was in late 1790s in Northwest Ohio close to where my mother was born.
Where have you guys been? I'm starving for history.... And I agree with someone below that you don't need those banner interruptions. Breaks up the flow.
I can only think of Michael Bentine whenever you mention the eponymous commander, and immediately think of a potty time reeneactment of the battle.
It's plausible to me that Tom would have thought very very hard in the end. You have to remember he won the Congressional medal of Honor I believe twice during the civil war and was a decorated and celebrated war hero of the American civil war. Not to mention he's fighting alongside his actual kin his blood his brothers. I like to believe that Tom in the end thought maybe he could do something to save his brother....
Great episode as usual. Small complaint, the musical interludes with title cards are actually pretty distracting and a tiny bit annoying. If those are kept, can the volume for those be dropped significantly from the main dialogue?
I agree, and may I... amplify this: the noise is really distracting and besides: you two don't need it, who could go to sleep listening to you both? Pleeeease discontinue, there are enough ads as it is (unless one has ad-free youtube). Accoustic torture! Your programs are a
so great.
It is interesting that ALL encounters in the open resulted in rapid defeat and/or retreat. Reno in the valley, Benteen + Reno at Weir point and the panicked retreat from same. We expect the Custer battalion to have behaved very differently but I doubt it. They were caught in the open and rapidly defeated in detail. The Reno-Benteen plus Pact Train remnant dug in and held out for 2 more days. However if Terry had not arrived within three days the 7th Cav would likely have been massacred to a man when their meagre water supply finally ran out and their ability to fight or stay awake was significantly eroded.
I believe he was told to wait till the infantry arrived to make an all out attack so he disobeyed his orders he killed all his men for his dream of glory which he wanted for himself
He was ordered to make his own decisions based on what was going on at the time
1. Did you know that Tom Custer was one of the few men to win two Medals of Honor?
2. Stephen Ambrose (Band of Brothers) has a book: "Crazy Horse and Custer: The Parallel Lived of Two American Warriors."
3. The evidence suggests that Custer positioned his men to await Benteen.
4. If Benteen had rushed to Custer, that probably would have take pressure off Reno, and might have been a game-changer for Custer. It would have had shock value.
5. I firmly believe that Custer's last 50 words were: "Where the eff is Benteen?" times 10.
Rain in the face got his revenge on Tom Custer just like he promised he would
I believe it was because Custer believed his own press
I've watched this and Martin Luther. How about one about Oliver Cromwell and the English Civil War?
It seems they underestimated the forces they were against. They should have also waited for reinforcements once they realized the potential size of their opponent if they knew they had another group headed their way. Also, making a charge when they were isolated on the same side of the opposing force was potentially a death sentence. Especially considering they would have no support from the larger group riding with Custer due to the river. They basically had an overwatch position but too far from their scouting unit that was sent across the river to give legitimate supporting fire. They should have been giving direct orders to not alert the opposing force until they could have Custers group in a position to pinch the camp from the north and on the same side of the river if they were going to still attack a larger force. Both southern and northern infil routes having been supported by fire teams in the event they needed to retreat back across to higher ground. Typical leapfrog tactics for a retreating force.
Frankly, the only reason they were not overrun was likely due to the Native Americans likely believing there as potentially reinforcements inbound. And since the American forces there were not rallying another attack, that belief they were waiting on support would have been well founded. Plus, it would have been better to create distance just in case reinforcements were coming or the opposing force was rallying and preparing for another attack. Best to get the tribe further away likely to another position they could defend better and potentially get the non warriors and the wounded to a safe location away from the fighting forces.
I grew up in Lawrence Kansas, Comanche was a great attraction. We would go see him every visit.
It always troubles me when the bodies / and conditions of George Custer and Tom Custer are glossed over…. which they kinda do here.
A few things:::
1. GAC wasn’t respected or honored by the Plains Indians (PI). There was NO reason for them not to mutilate his body unless they weren’t sure of his identity.
There is the apocryphal story that a PI woman put awls in his ears because he wouldn’t listen. And an arrow shaft in his penis to shame his body.
But in my opinion, this is taking the facts (the condition of GAC’s body) to fit the story.
GAC was a hated enemy. If they truly knew his identity on the battlefield (btw, there were several officers that either wore full buckskins or partial buckskins in the battle, including Tom Custer), there is no doubt that he would’ve been fully mutilated.
2. Speaking of which, Tom Custer’s body was wreaked - head caved in, limbs mostly cut off, scalped, shot, gutted, deep slicing wounds down to the bone, pierced with almost 20 arrows (which happens when the hatred of the PI is so strong that even after their enemy is dead, they just fill the body up with arrow shot after arrow shot.) Tom Custer’s body, which was only yards away from GAC, was so mutilated that he was only recognized by the tattoo of his initials on his arm.
So why was TC’s body wreaked, but GAC’s body left relatively unscathed?
To me, there are 1 of 2 reasons:
1. Tom Custer was a 2 time Medal of Honor winner…which is practically unheard of. He was known as an unlikeable son of a bitch. And an absolutely demonic soldier. So it is entirely plausible that TC was such a barbaric and deadly fighter in this battle that after he was killed, the PI’s wanted to completely destroy and degrade his body.
Yes. That’s possible and plausible.
Or,
2. It’s even more likely that his maniacal battle prowess led the PI to assume/believe that he, in fact, was actually GAC.
It should be noted that GAC’s hair was cut short before the battle. And TC’s hair was long.
It is certainly feasible that the PI simply confused the 2 similarly dressed brothers.
Hence, the vastly disparate treatment of the 2 bodies.
Great series! I paid my respects to Comanche last summer.
Two British giys talking about Custer's Last Fight!?? Yes, but you guys did a great job! I've been to the battle field and i can tell you that Custer Hill is not a hill, its a slope off of a plateau. And George and Tom were killed at the top of the slope, not down where their markers are. The markers were moved when the mass grave and monument were put at the top. The only two soldiers that were not mutilated were Custer and Myles Keogh. You KNOW that while they were surrounded and fighting for their lives the Custer was cussing up a blue streak at Benteen, "Where the HELL is Benteen!" "Damn him!"i agree that most of the blame lies with Crooke for not reporting the Rosebud fight, in which he personally preformed very poorly and came very close to losing his command. They were saved by quick thinking subordinate officers. And remember, the strategy that Custer used he had used with much sucess in the past. And Custer Hill was not the "Last Stand". There were many reports by the indians that told of a group of soldiers who broke and ran for the river and were chased down and died fighting elsewhere, but probably not in Deep Ravine. It's not clear exactly where though. 1:01:56
What “tactics” against a superior force could have resulted in a victory for Custer? His scouting reconnaissance provided size of village but not size & capability of the hostile force. Balancing the effectiveness of his own force (tired,drunken, low ammunition) with the element of surprise. Dividing his forces on rugged, hilly terrain made communication and coordination challenging. Lastly, they were outgunned by superior warriors who were provoked by his sneak attack on women & children thus fueling furious rage. Putting personality traits aside, I understand why Gen Terry, a cautious tactician, believed the battle was a huge blunder.
You may enjoy The Fall of Civilization Podcast with Paul Cooper. And the 36 episodes, The Fall of Rome on TH-cam with Mike Duncan
Honest criticism - it's what i do - I really love the format of the typical episodes, but the addition of title cards with the title music sting (which I normally love) - over played to the point of irritation.
I endorse experimentation, but this detracted, for me.
I agree
Agreed. If they are trying to attract a larger audience on TH-cam all they need to do is upload their videos regularly. The corresponding podcast to this was released months ago.
Agree. Very annoying every couple of minutes. Unnecessary.
Agreed. It needlessly interrupted the flow. The first couple of times, I had to look at my phone to make sure it didn't skip to another episode on it's own (that happens sometimes).
I like that you are trying to make things better.....but this innovation, isn't one.
Jack Crabb : “I didn't say that. There are thousands of Indians down there. And when they get done with you, there won't be nothing left but a grease-spot. This ain't the Washita River, General, and them ain't helpless women and children waiting for you. They're Cheyenne braves, and Sioux. You go down there, General, if you've got the nerve.”. Quote from Little Big Man movie.
Regarding Benteen's orders to 'come quick'
He knew full well that the surrounding area was likely full of Sioux,Cheyenne etc
And that Custer was likely already engaged in a fight...
Benteen's orders were clear already
Get moving NOW QUICKLY BRING PACKS.
leaves little room for question..especially for a senior combat officer.
They miss the postscript “PS Bring packs” on Cooke’s note virtually every time they mention it, which rather confuses the order.
It’s seems like the note indicates Custer wanted the supplies and ammo more than the extra men. If we assume the fight goes well for the army, Benteen would have looked horrible if he arrived fast but without the pack train. He was supposed to hasten the pack train which was well behind Benteen.
The archaeology book you mentioned examines the prevailing cavalry doctrine, including splitting of a regiment into battalions, as Custer did. Custer's first stand (Trevilian Station) is equally interesting - he had form.
Who's to blame? Custer of course. He underestimated the Indians will to fight back. He predicted they would run away when attacked by the Cavalry and simply give up whe Custer would capture their women and children because that's the behavior they demonstrated in Custer's previous battles. When the high Comand gave him this assignment, they expected a big number of Indians would gather at the Little Big Horn and suggested he should take at least two Gutlin Guns and additional weapons and men. He turned it down indicating that this operation would be quick and taking additional weapons would slow him down. He underestimated the number of Indian warriors and their will to fight back, coupled with his plan of attack which was based on his erroneous perceptions of past experiences. As a result, he didn't follow up with standard military procedures before an attack to make sure as to the size of the enemy. He made decisions on assumptions and he caused this tragedy. Had he listen to his scouts and only evaluate further what was ahead of him and call for reinforcements and them attack, the story would have been different.
They were like let’s mess around with this encampment and see what happens.
I guess they found out alright.
What if Custer died esrly o. And his brother dragged his body up to Calhoun Hill?
I think it is possible that Custer was badly wounded when he tried to cross the river and that the Command Structure fell apart because they were so dependent on him. Crazy Horse took his men up on the ridge and in a sweeping arc hit them from the east.
"I asked CHAT Gpt where the indians got their rifles. From the Government, from trappers and from traders over several years.
The Soldiers had ammunition... but they ran out of water to drink and could not go down to the river to get more water."
Then CHAT Gpt said the indians had repeating Winchester rifles... the US Soldiers have single shot scofield rifles.
So the 7th wasn't just outnumbered... the 7th was also outgunned. Custer gave the Indians the battle when he split into 3 smaller units".
I went to junior high a few miles south of Lawrence Kansas and on a school trip we went to that museum and saw Commanche stuffed behind glass and that is mostly all I remember about that trip.
❓What if Custers plan was that Reno was supposed to attack and then retreat? Drawing the Warriors to chase after them leaving the village undefended. Then Custer and his battalion could go in and capture the women and children with out resistance. He didn't plan that the horses were too tired to run in the retreat. Or that they were seriously out numbered and outgunned.
Yes, no trees in bighorn, but the contours of the land is super rugged, coulees, in french and there were many. Very deceptive battlefield were men can creep up rapidly
From up top Custer could see the entire village …they had what we have now….binoculars….
Custer damn well knew exactly where the village was and he had to have a idea that its stretched out about 3 miles
@@ericstevens8744 sure they did, but this happened in minutes and these minutes were a disaster
The troopers in Custer's direct command only had 50 rounds of carbine ammunition on them (they also carried a 6 shooter that might have had one reload of pistol ammunition). 50 rounds does not last very long in this kind of battle, you go through rounds very fast. Their only chance was for Benteen to immediately provide additional ammunition, but Benteen was too far to the South to come quickly. Custer's first mistake was dividing his command into 3 columns without knowing the numbers opposing him, but he was proceeding with the Military Intelligence he had which indicated only 800-1200 warriors-in reality there were 3000-4000. And forensic investigation of cartridge cases indicates that 200-300 repeating rifles were used in the fight-the vast majority of them by the Warriors who bought the rifles from Post Traders as ex Civil War stock. The terrain also helped the Warriors, it was full of coulees and ravines which allowed them to close with Custer's command without being under direct fire. The engagement was very similar to the British defeat at Isandlwana, where the Zulu used ravines to close with the British troops. Good review, but a little too much levity and 'yucking' for my taste. A little less flippant behavior would make it a lot more interesting, at the end of the day this was a tragedy for all involved-it wasn't a joke and shouldn't be treated as such even 150 years later.
Each trooper had 50 rounds of carbine ammunition on their person and another 50 in their saddle bags. They each carried 18 revolver rounds. In my opinion, one of the main causes of the defeat was the absence of sabres, because without a sabre you cannot fight on horseback. In effect, you become mounted infantry, and never in any battle have infantry in open order been able to stand against cavalry. This was subsequently rectified with the return of the sabre as late as WW1.
@@nigelsmith2457 Sabres might have helped, particularly during the Reno retreat across the river. The Warriors were allowed to essentially 'join' the flight across the river and wield their clubs and tomahawks at close quarters. As for carbine ammunition, rounds in the saddle bags were of no help-at no time in this fight did troopers have an opportunity to access those. You fight with what is on your immediate person and, as I noted, you go through those 50 rounds very quickly. Probably only 1 shot in 10 struck a target and only a some of those incapacitated a Warrior-that's normal for armed conflict like this, the Hollywood image of carefully aimed shots doesn't capture the intensity, rapidity and-yes-the panic during this fight. Pistol rounds are effective only at close quarters and by the time the Warriors got that close, they were in overwhelming numbers and the Troopers had been decimated by volleys of arrows and repeating rifle shots. More than a few Troopers used that last pistol round on themselves-the Sioux didn't take prisoners except to torture them-in the most painful of ways.
@@pimpompoom93726 The troopers had every opportunity to access their ammunition. It's a matter of organisation. You only need to look at similar actions such as Rorkes Drift to see that you need runners constantly supplying your front line. This didn't happen at LBH.
You're correct in that sabres would have helped Reno during the crossing. Soldiers have reported that hostiles rode alongside them with their rifles across their saddles, shooting the troopers from their horses. Other say that the hostiles used their bows to snag the riders and pull them down. Sabres would have prevented them from coming close enough.
In Custers situation, he was surrounded and had to shoot horses to give the men cover. They couldn't ride out because there was no deterrent to the hostiles. Sabres would have provided that deterrent, stopped the hostiles from closing on them, and allowed part of Custers battalion to get away.
@@nigelsmith2457 You are not familiar with US Cavalry tactics, who fought more like mounted infantry. They formed standing skirmish lines with one man in every 4 relegated to holding the reins of 4 horses. The horses were often massively agitated from the shooting and it was everything the man assigned to restrain them could do to maintain control. Breaking away from the skirmish line to retrieve more ammunition from the saddle bags was possible in theory, very difficult if not impossible in practice. Roarkes Drift is not a good comparison, those were infantry fighting within circled wagons and mealie bags and using runners to replenish troopers cartridge belts was far more practical. Having to use one Trooper to restrain horses reduced the US Cavalry strength by 25% right from the get-go, assigning runners to replenish ammunition pouches-if it even could have been performed-would further reduce fighting manpower. There were simply too many Indians that day, they were far better armed than expected and the 7th was overwhelmed by numbers-that's the reality.
@@pimpompoom93726 I am very familiar with US cavalry tactics of the period, thank you. So familiar, in fact, that I can tell you that once a man decides to get off of his horse, then he's no longer a cavalryman. He's an infantryman. And as I've previously stated, infantry in open order cannot stand against cavalry. The temporary removal of the sabre was subsequently rectified and restored, so someone in authority was obviously paying attention.
At Rorkes Drift, there were approximately 150 men with breech loading carbines, facing 3000-4000 hostiles, yet they managed to organise ammunition supplies to the troops on the front line. At LBH, there were approximately 225 men with breech loading carbines, facing 3000-4000 hostiles, yet they could not manage to organise ammunition supplies to the troops on the front line. Forget the horse holders, even with 25% less men, Custer still had more troops and could have done this with better organisation.
Finally, according to the accounts of many of the hostile natives, plenty of ammunition was found on the bodies of the US dead, which indicates that lack of ammunition wasn't the cause of the defeat.
Reno saved his men, hilarious take
Heads up for Tom and Dominic. I live in Kansas, saw Comanche in Lawrence. The display was dark (I did get pictures!) And it was "under review" so they might remove it from the museum on the KU campus.
I have studied the battle for over 30 years and while it is true nobody knows what exactly happened its fair to say after Richard Fox dig in 1984 we have a better idea of what happened and I would like to address some of your points , How did Custer end up on Last Stand Hill ? Well if we are to believe Painted Shield a Cheyanne woman a Party of soldiers possibly Company F approached the River when two Cheyanne warriors opened fire hitting a man in buckskins and a flag bearer , The buckskin man was helped back on his horse and the soldiers retreated , If this is true then Custer was mortally wounded at the start of the fight and its the reason why his HQ company never left Last Stand Hill .
I would also like to point out that Skirmish lines were formed below Last Stand hill and to the left C, I , L , Companies with E company scouting to Custer's right near the Deep Ravine and F company with Custer on the Hill , Shell casings support this theory that each skirmish line was flanked and fell back to the next in line and grave markers again support this thesis until a trail of dead led up to Last Stand Hill , One exception was Company I with 15 men killed around Capt Keogh , The last troopers to fall seem to have been company E.
The problem with the single shot Sharps Carbine was not it overheating but the shell extraction the copper casings tended to be soft and would flatten out when fired so extracting them would sometimes take a knife or tool but it was a very good carbine highly accurate up to 300-350 yards unlike the Henry or Winchester when had a max 200 yard effective range.
After studying the battle so long I have come to the conclusion that Custer men put up a good fight it was not a rout until the first two skirmish lines were flanked that being C&L respectively after that I company seemed to have been completely taken by surprise as none virtually made it to Last stand hill but some of C & L did meaning they just ran straight past I Company.
Thankyou.
How about the Nez Perce War next?
The story of the Nez Perce war is equal in depth and contradictions. It involves Otis Howard the goat of Carlottesville and Gettysberg, a hero under Sherman, the leader of the Freed'smen bureau, the founder of Howard University and the bungling administrator of the Nez Perce tragedy.
Omitting the numerous accounts of Reno being intoxicated and seen drinking is a critical omission. It affected his handling of the battlefield events. He was "out of it" trying to find a dead friend and he was Benteens superior officer.
hiya, they bring this point up alot in earlier episodes
I think you'll find that Reno's drinking was covered pretty comprehensively, including in this episode.
Tremendous series and will be at a loss when it concludes. I'm with Dominic that Benteen comes over as the man who saved what remained from certain destruction if they had tried to advance. Reno's comand is so depleted that the margin for error is tiny and any attempt at advance would have given the Lakota a much better opportunity to rout them. Need to look out for the Osprey books (?)
In the 1880s, the national Tribune began publication in Washington DC. At one point the magazine published part one of the reminiscences of Reno. I believe the reaction of the subscribers was so negative that the magazine refused to publish anymore of Reno’s writings. The national Tribune later became the stars and stripes.
Have a lot better understanding what happened very good accounts.
Custer rules
There is a very good "Battlefield Detectives" documentary on TH-cam concerning a relatively recent archeological survey of the battlefield which focuses on the number and location of recovered shell casings and bullets. The picture which emerges from this evidence supports the Indian accounts that there was no "last stand" , but rather a panicked rout as soldiers put up nominal resistance and most were massacred trying to flee for their lives.
It was a lunatic few minutes at best and from markers certainly wasn't in a circle as in movies
Garry Owen was the longest living legend from the battle of the Little Bighorn.
Benteen was following Custer trail when he found Reno. That point changed everything.
Correct
As for Custer's 'Blunder' and diving headlong into the attack/dividing his force.
It has to be taken into consideration..this is only my own thoughts of course.
1#Custer believed his force had been seen and therefore now open to an attack...at the moment his force was in no position to repel an attack..Cavalry strength is mobility and going on the attack.
So he had 2 choices
Sit there and wait for an attacking force to come over the hills and annihilate his force where they stand.
OR
Go on the attack..where Cavalry excells.
But he knew he needed support..Benteen wasnt going to be enough,Thats why he ordered Benteen to move quick and bring the packs.
Splitting his forces..Not a good idea im sure he was aware of..but what to do?
I dont think he had any illusions about winning a 'toe-to-toe' fight against an overwhelming force and bring the fight to an end by killing enough warriors..Its obvious he would have known he didnt have enough troops and ammo to win that sort of fight.
BUT
If he could capture women&childten and hold them so the warriors would back down..in my opinion that was certainly possible but he needed simultaeneous support from Benteen and Reno.
If that was his plan..it fell apart as soon as Reno hit the southern end of the village..there was no way Reno was going to stop and block the amount of warriors coming at him.
Custer needed Reno to draw warriors south away from the northern end of the village and Benteen to arrive in a timely manner and give further support.
Greetings from Montana!
Its easy to judge others from the safety of a home and years later.
Reno left the relative safety of the cottonwoods as he realized he was facing far more gunfire than expected. The killing of his scout was in my opinion more myth than the reality
Horses , due to the intensity and sensing of their rider, will hold contempt for these tribes themselves