The two of you look exactly like I’ve imagined, after the hundreds of hours of listening to you while working outside in the east coast Canadian weather. You two have gotten me through a lot of long days! Thank you very much, enjoying the longer episodes and series lately! The Longer the Better it gets! Thank you fellas
They also besides their obvious historical knowledge have a great charisma and wonderful sense of light humour. Dominic has long been a favourite British social historian of mine. Tom’s brother James Holland along with Al Murray are two other great historians who give a fascinating but enjoyable view of history. Can’t wait to hear the episode where the ostrich is shot 😉
Franz Josef had already been goaded into two disastrous wars in which he believed he was in the right - in 1859 and 1866. The religious sense had always been a part of Habsburg policy. An excellent episode btw.
I think he always convinced himself that every war was existential and about dynastic survival.... in other words to lose a war or fail to fight one would be disastrous for his regime. The "lose a war" part is obvious.... but the "fail to fight one" was the fatal error. With a persistent war mongerer like Chief of staff Conrad Von Hotzendorff demanding war and the moderating voice of Franz Ferdinand removed from the scene he was fatally influenced towards war. His circle of advisors lost the principal voice for peace whose ghost now arguably demanded revenge.
Brilliant quote ‘It’s not that there are too few facts available but that there are too many’ Also works for the world of the internet and social media we now live in sadly 😔
Very enjoyable presentation. The downside of learning history (or The Shock of History, as Dominique Venner called it) is that pretty much everything in it could have been avoided.
Great stuff - thank you for this very detailed and balanced analysis! I'm currently teaching a course on the literature of the First World War and will be recommending your podcast to all my students.
"I think a curse should rest on me - because I love this war. I know it's smashing and shattering the lives of thousands every moment - and yet - I can't help it - I enjoy every second of it." - Winston Churchill Written to a friend during 1914-19 The Great War for Civilisation, I didn’t believe in it then and I believe in it less so now JRR Tolkien circa 1960s Personally I’m with Tolkien
I knew a very old man as a young woman. He used to write dogrell poetry (brilliantly) and sell anti-war religious tracts in the pubs in the town I grew up in. One day I asked why he did what he did. He sat down, and for a pint of Guinness told me about trench warfare in WWl. In the end, over many years, I got to become a friend of his. I used to spend Sunday afternoons in the local Royal British Legion Club with him and his mates. They had all died by the end of the 1990's. Three of them, who had never married mainly due to "shell shock," left me their medals when they died. I was also given a couple of dress uniforms. I donated them, with my notes of their war stories, to the local museum with all the handwritten notes i had made of their stories of their war and photos they had given me. Miraculously, while they had lost classrooms full of friends, these 5 had survived. I still pop in to see the display.
Just want to say how much I love this show. It’s just fantastic and both speakers are simply incredible and fluid and so well prepared. Love it so much. Listen to it all the time while cycling to and from work in Shenzhen, China.
From the super interesting talk of these two great fellows , I get that with Kaiser Whilhelm , you never know when he is going to say something very sensible .
There was a good documentary on WW1 that showed that really most of the Power in Germany ; once War was decided passed to the military Ludendorff and Hindenburg . The democratic parliament was basically ignored , until they were forced to negotiate the Armistice .
@@AnthonyBrown12324and to avoid responsibility for the defeat of Germany te right wing and the German senior military promote the stab in the back myth that led us to the national socialists and the Austrian house painter.
@@AnthonyBrown12324 true _but_ Kaiser Willy set the political direction and had the veto up till the shooting started , so his incredible naivety and willful ignorance was still a - the - major factor.
I have been listening to the pod for a while and now can put a face to it. I would have you take this as a compliment. You two have the best emoji faces I have ever seen. Angelic and wise. Angular and then distinctly not angular. A scoop of vanilla ice cream with kind eyes.
The borders in Europe were fluid. The Balkans had become highly unstable after the Ottomans had been driven out. France was still sore over losing the Alsace. The generals had railways, breech loading guns, mortars and cannons to experiment with. The admirals had battleships, submarines and airships to experiment with. Behind the lines they now had big factories to churn out munitions. The military were keen to try out the new weapons, strategies and tactics. There hadn't been a big modern war since the 1860's and 70's. The monarchies and generals dressed in colourful uniforms but their medals were from long long ago. The young officer class were frustrated with peace that provided no chance to make a name for themselves. They were envious of Britain's military adventures in Africa. They wanted to see some action like the young Churchill did. The new moving pictures in cinemas were showing an exciting world of rapid movement and fights over matters of honour. A few big battles in 1914 would satisfy the thrill seekers and resolve the border disputes. Hoorah!!!
Serbs have always resisted occupiers . Ottomans for 500 years, Hitler from 1941 to 1945. Do you seriously think the Austrians would subjugate them ? Even the Croats and Muslims in Bosnia joined Princip in the Mlada Bosna ( Young Bosnia) Yugoslav patriotic group who fought for freedom
@TheAustrianAnimations87 Don't be ridiculous every occupied and subjugated group in the Austro -Hungarian empire wanted their independence. Slovaks , Czechs, Croats,Bosnian Muslims ,Poles Ukranians ,Romanians, etc . The Croats were particularly pro Yugoslav . It was Austrian propoganda that it was only Serbs who were against military occupation as the Serbs were the most dangerous minority so they tried the old colonial tactic of divide and rule but it failed which is shown by the presence if Croats and Muslims in the Mlada Bosna organisation . There were zero Austrians living in Bosnia when they annexed it, so it was only a matter of time before it blew up in their faces .
Been seeing every episode since I saw your first series on the french revolution. Great info ! And great humor! I'm probably Your biggest follower from India.
What probably a lot of English speaking people don't realize is that in German the emperor of Austria-Hungary was called Kaiser as well - indeed as the successor to the Holy Roman emperors he was the original Kaiser and the Prussian one was an upstart. I think there was actually a song at the time -"There is only one Imperial city / there's only one Vienna!"
Well no, Kaiser is simply the german word for emperor. They held two different imperial titles and the one held by Franz Josef did not include the other german realms as not only had the title "King of the Germans" become defunct since the destruction of the HRE but his Title of Kaiser only refered to the lands within the Austrian parts of the Habsburg empire. It is hard to claim that the Prussian ruling house of Germany were upstarts as technicaly they had not claimed the original title meant for the rulers of Germany proper, Their current titles were either held since the 1300's, 16/1700's or Created in 1871. And of course the Austrians might feel like the Prussians were upstarts but the truth is they would never have united Germany so it is rather hard to feel sympathy for people crying about a title they never even would have had.
@@christianandersson4345 But the Austro-Hungarian ruler was referred to as the kaiser by his own subjects was he not? -which was the point I made originally. In English it is an extremely handy thing to refer to him as an emperor and the German one as the Kaiser but both were Kaisers were they not.? And of course the word "Czar" and "Tsar" are merely the Russian forms of "Kaiser' -and it is merely a handy thing to keep at as such and not translate it as "emperor." Funny that we don't do the same thing for other potentates like the emperors of China and Japan but we did it for Iran (Shah) and Abyssinia (Negus.)
@@kaloarepo288 Yes that is correct sorry if i missed your point. I think it might really have to do with history painting both the leadership of Germany and Russia as a sort of backwards historical villain that was led more by an instiution than a man or indivudal. The Kaiser does invoke a certain feeling i suspect in many that simply emperor does not. Or it could simply have to do with the greater focus placed on these rulers in western teaching, If i say Kaiser or Tzar you would instantly know what nation i am speaking of, if i said Ten'nō most would not. Or it could be other factors but an interesting point nonetheless.
"What probably a lot of English speaking people don't realize is that in German the emperor of Austria-Hungary was called Kaiser as well - indeed as the successor to the Holy Roman emperors he was the original Kaiser" That´s not really true. Basically it´s not true at all. Kaiser means somebody who receives this title from the pope in Rome. This is what set him apart for centuries from all the other rulers in Europe. This and only this made a king becoming Emperor. The conferment of the imperial dignity by the head of the Catholic Church was simply a basic requirement. Without this one couldn´t be Emperor. In 1806 the last German-Roman Emperor Franz II vacated this title and made himself Emperor of Austria instead which is nothing else than a fantasy title and therefore the same poppyckock as "German Emperor" what the Hohenzollern were or Emperor of the French what Napoleon called himself or Emperess of India what the Brits did. In the 18th century all of a sudden every Tom, Dick and Harry called himself Emperor. But all of the aforementioned titles (including Austrian Emperor) are just fantasy titles which don´t even make sense, it´s the same as somebody would have called himself "Tenno of Meckelnburg" or "Pharao of Saxony".
@@kodor1146 So you deny that the subjects of the Austria-Hungarian empire ,in German, referred to their emperor as "Kaiser" which is all I was trying to say - after all I have been to the Kaisergruft (Imperial crypt) in the Capuchin convent in Vienna and here most of the Habsburg Kaisers are buried including post 1806 ones like Francis and Franz Josef. Whether or not it was a fantasy title is totally besides the point. English is selective in referring to foreign potentates - in some examples as with shah, sultan, maharajah, czar and (Prussian) Kaiser, the correct untranslated title is used but for most not -other wise we would be talking about, the rey of Spain, the re of Italy, the roi of France, the kong of Denmark, the wang of China ad infinitum!
WW1 was avoidable, and once it started, it was containable, and once it had expanded, it could have been ended through negotiation. But nobody in power really wanted to stop the madness of all this. This is the real tragedy of WW1 - it was the first war between great powers that became a war of hate, of xenophobia. The wars of the 18th century, such as the War of Austrian Succession or the Seven Years' War, and even the Napoleonic Wars of the early 19th century, were all wars between monarchs, or at least between ruling aristocracies. They were not populist wars. The average English peasant, craftsman, shopkeeper or factory worker cared very little about the war with Napoleon, they were more concerned with day to day survival. Newspapers were read by the educated elite, not the public at large. By 1914 though, great power governments had become either democratic or semi-democratic. And the one truly authoritarian government, that of Russia, was poorly run, with a Tsar who lacked political common sense. The power of the media in 1914 had reached the working class, and whipped up the xenophobia, insisting on a war of revenge, a war of total victory and destruction of the enemy. WW1 was the beginning of the age of barbarism, that would culminate in Auschwitz and the atomic bomb explosion on Hiroshima.
Well, it's debatable, as you know, it was tense, and A-H Serbia had been on the brink of war for years before the actual War. There was a trade embargo placed on Serbia so when there was an incident when a peasant from Serbia tried to smuggle a [ig into occupied Bosnia and got caught, both armies took positions and during the "Pig Incident" we were an accidental shot away from starting the war early. it was a tense standoff but it was diplomatically solved at the end.Of course the Serbian people were celebrating when the Archduke was killed... Even if it started earlier, Russia would have supported Serbia so don't know how to contain it from then... But it would be a more interesting story with a moral, because we would be aware that the greatest war and human suffering until then was caused by as smuggled pig.. describes us humans pretty well...
beautiful part! I don`t know why i found your channel just now. Keep up the great work. But don`t forget, that a lot of the scary methods mentioned on the arm of little Willy, where aplied by doctors which his mom Vicky brought into the court. ;) BTW: A wonderful Saxonian accent at the letter of Franz. I almost forget he was Austrian. :D
I've read the Black Lamb and the Grey Falcon by Rebecca West which covers a bit of this history and I've been to Sarajevo and visited the museum about the assassination. Your coverage of this has been very informative for me.
War occurred because the will for peace in the summer of 1914 faltered. In every other previous European crisis since the 1870s there was a peace/diplomatic conference to solve the issue. Had European powers held a conference in July/August to agree on sanctions against Serbia this whole thing would have been avoided. The biggest mystery for me is why nobody took this initiative as they had several times before. This is the key. A subtle shift in the balance between those that wanted to prevent war in Europe and those that wanted war took place. The death of Franz Ferdinand destroyed the peace party in the Austrian Hungarian court. Fair enough. But it doesn't explain why the peace/diplomacy parties failed simultaneously in Germany; Russia; France and Britain. And I suspect that it was a very near thing. Because the instinct to hold a conference was well established and had produced excellent results. For example did the British Foreign secretary Grey suggest a conference? He was an obvious choice to suggest it as Britain was a great power and officially on the fence. Other European powers would have had to respond diplomatically to such an initiative. Not pointing the finger as Grey was the last person responsible for the mess. But to me its an enduring mystery that diplomatic efforts to coordinate an agreed response to the assassination crisis were apparently stillborn. We note desperate measures by the Tsar and Kaiser to prevent the mess after their council of ministers/Military General staff had taken decisive decisions towards partial or full mobilization. But a two way exchange of plaintive telegrams was not a serious initiative but more about blame shifting for historical purposes. Had they been serious they would have called for a (1) conference preceded by a (2) cooling off. So again...why oh why did nobody formally propose a diplomatic conference. Or if somebody did; why was it ignored....or refused..
Was there a diplomatic conference when Empress Sissi was murdered or Alexander II? The archduke wasn't even a full heir as his marriage got rejected by the Austrian emperor
@2adamast nonsense points. He was the heir and was murdered in a plot by a foreign government's deep state military called the Black Hand. Who had already wiped out their own royal family. If you can't tell the difference between that and ordinary terrorism then you need help.
Hungarian here, yes you butchered the name--used to it. A helpful guide, In Hungarian the accent is always on the first SYLlable. BTW, Maria Vetsera, Prince Rudy's "squeeze" was my great aunt. Love every subject that you cover in this podcat.
It reminded me of A-level history lessons in the 1970s and AJP Taylor. My views have evolved. Under Bismarck’s constitution, the Kaiser was in charge of foreign policy and the military. However, the army had marginalised him by 1914 and didn’t take him seriously. A military dictatorship ran Germany during the war. Moltke was the war’s real architect. He wanted to crush Russia before it became too powerful. It had nothing to do with Belgium, France or even Britain. The two countries shared a long border in Poland. Russia had a large army which was rapidly modernising. Moltke wanted a preemptive strike, unfortunately for Germany, the Schlieffen Plan didn’t work. Moltke was encouraging the Austrians to beat up Serbia. Moltke didn't care if Britain joined the war because it had a tiny army. Had Britain stayed out, the war would probably have played out like the Franco-Prussian War, the Germans would have grabbed some territory in France and then left. It would then focus on defeating Russia. The participation of the British Empire turned it into a total war, which was the only way Britain could win. A total war was disastrous for Britain. I have lived in the US for 25 years, where they live and breathe great power politics. The war was a disaster for Britain. The British Empire was the world’s largest economy until 1916. The war severely weakened Britain. The Americans took over as the West’s leading power. The Victorians were pragmatic and understood geopolitics, unlike the Liberals in 1914 and most British 20th-century politicians. Palmerston, Gladstone and Salisbury avoided fighting wars Britain could not win easily. Gladstone stayed out of the Franco-Prussian War after making a deal with Bismarck. He did not care about France and believed it was not in Britain’s national interest to fight the Germans. Britain would have avoided the war had Salisbury still been PM. Grey hated the Germans and found them rude, he was an idiot. Churchill liked a good war, both were arguing in the Cabinet that France had to be protected at all costs, which was bonkers.
Agreed. Also, Moltke diluted the Schlieffen plan in Belgium/France. Churchill was an absolute maniac war hawk who also had international banking financiers. I see WW1 as a war of nationalism vs internationalism.
Another fantastic episode. So important with Russia on the march to know this sort of history. Let’s hope our leaders are not sleepwalking today. So powerful to start with Owen’s poem.
@@richcole157The West provoked the Tragedy in Ukraine The only people that really wanted that war sat in Washington London and Wall Street Our Leaders are mortgaged to Arrogance and Delusion Along with many of there populations I’d add
Germany victorious, dominating the Continent, would've let Britain remain supreme at sea? Ferguson (who, yes is brilliant) admits his argument depends on Germany benevolent in victory, aka the EU. Britain depended on sea power, not being self-sufficient, or having an army. Personally I can't blame the FO but, even so, they were losing the argument before Germany entered Belgium.
Most informative and entertaining, as always! But, in addition, there already was a military defense pact between Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy - didn't it play a part?
Dear Dominic, You talk about sailing the Baltic about the Kaisers cruise to the Norwegian fjords. I do not know if it sailed from Kiel to Norway through the Kiel canal or if it sailed through the Danish strait, but it was more a north sea or north Atlantic ocean journey than an Baltic one. Great channel by the way.
My eyes quite literally rolled into the back of my head when I heard "The Sleepwalkers" continuously cited, a work which subscribes to the ever-fashionable "tragic accident" (exacerbated by political incompetence) school of history. I was also aghast when Sandbrook said that "no serious historian" has assigned blame [to Germany], when Fritz Fisher's "Germany's Aims in the First World War" has existed for over sixty years. "Dreadnought" by Robert Massie has also provided invaluable context in explaining pre war German strategic brinkmanship in creating the environment in which the war could be precipitated, such as the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine following the Franco-Prussian War, Holstein and Bulow deliberately failing to renew their country's non-aggression pact with Russia, and their administration's provokation of France over colonial disputes in North Africa. The podcast also contains a narrative inconsistency in prefacing the Kaiser's lack of absolute power [in the context of contributing to the outbreak of the war), yet simultaneously assigning great weight to his interactions with other European leaders in contributing to the conflagration. The podcast also completely omits to mention the huge support for a pre-emptive anti-slavic war amongst German academia, industry, and the military - all of which agreed on the strategic aim of seizing raw materials in the east to compensate for Germany's pre war trade deficit caused by a lack of domestic resources. No mention of the "Mitteleuropa" plan, which codified this, to create a German-dominated central and eastern European trading bloc of client states, including vast tracts of redistributed Russian territory. I'm a huge fan of the podcast, but this was a surface-level, sophomoric analysis of the causes of the conflict which sadly neglected appreciate why so many people people historically blamed Germany for the war - a phenomenon based in historiographical reality, at least up until the mid twentieth century.
The german ,,Stop in Belgrade‘‘- Proposal was great. But the Austrians wanted a great war with Serbia and France wanted war with Germany cause the wanted the Alsace back. And the President of France Poincare came from the Alsace and wanted this Territory back at all cost.
Wilhelm’s arm paralysis wasn’t necessarily caused by doctors’ panic during his breech delivery. Before C-sections were routine, breech deliveries were quite dangerous as the baby’s head (and biggest part) would be last to deliver, and a baby hung up by the head (alongside a compressed umbilical cord) would quickly asphyxiate. Brachial plexus injuries like Wilhelm’s were often the result of the traction on the baby’s neck necessary to complete the delivery and save its life. The business with the slaughtered hares, now, THAT was nuts.
The injury to the Kaiser is called shoulder dystocia and is a common complication during delivery, particularly before cesarian section was common. I doubt the doctors were particularly negligent just because he had this injury.
Why couldn't the two of you be my history teachers when I was school? I would ace every test, every episode feels like a coffee conversation between friends that I can just pick up a mug and join. If only I could tell my ten year old self that its not the subject its the teacher and years later I will be gobbling historical podcasts like a mad woman!
World War One was unleashed & gathered a deadly momenum that no one was able to predict. For the first time in history you had the ability to mobilize a massive army that you could keep feeding with fresh troops, that you could move rapidly, could keep fed & armed ad infinitum. Revolutions in industrial production, farming, communications such as railways, huge ships & telegraphs all came together into a conflgration that suddenly no one could stop from being carried along by.
It’s funny that the bell that rang for me (in America) when you mentioned Zimmerman was Bob Dylan, and I was so disappointed that Bob did not figure into your story
The Prime Minister of Serbia at the time, who had been the leading politician for decades, was named Pacic. He was a relative moderate by Serbian standards. His private papers, as well description's of cabinet meetings by former cabinet members in their memoirs, indicate that he was eager to hand over the four "hawk" members of the intelligence directorate who had aided the assassins. to Austria.He hated and feared the intelligence department, knowing that they had committed appalling atrocities in the past. But he never told the Austrians of his wishes, at least not directly. If the Austrians had known of his willingness to cooperate with them, war could have been averted. Of course the Serbian response to the Austrian Ultimatum at the end of July (I think it was July) was couched in very conciliatory language and acceded to most of Austria's demands, including a promise to hand over to Austria the one suspect whom the Austrians, up to that time ,had been able to identify. It is clear to me that that Austria should have put their invasion plans on hold and continued negotiations with Serbia after receiving this conciliatory response to their ultimatum. If the Austrians had shown restraint at this time, war miay have been avoided,
There are two things you historians must correct public perception: 1) The causes of WWI and how the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was just a catalyst; 2) How it was the 1930s deflation and not the 1920s hyperinflation that cause the nazis to rise to power.
Britain wrecked itself fighting wars it couldn’t afford in the first part of the 20th century America is doing the same thing this century Col Macgregor Ret
@@michaelnewsham1412 The US is in declared or undeclared wars most of the time, from 1775. Since 2021 our "allies" are doing most of the kinetic action, with our backing of course. ;-)
Christopher Clark's basic premise in "The Sleepwalkers" is not really that different from that put forward by Lloyd George in his post war memoirs when he says that Europe "slithered over the edge" into war. The basic idea being that nobody actively sought a war. The one country that could have ended the July Crisis at any point was Germany. If Germany had told her ally in Vienna not to react militarily to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife things would have been differnt. The key debate is over the reasons why Germany acted as she did. Was it because Germany saw an opportunity to launch an aggressive war an a favourable moment? (The Fritz Fischer thesis).Or was it because those taking the decisions in Berlin were totally incompetent and clearly not up to the task of handling a rapidly developing situation?
What do German archives and memoires say on this issue ? Would they have taken good care of their archives or explained it in their memoires if it gave a positive view on their past decisions and actions ?
Putting aside for a second whether the war could have been prevented, the war could have been concluded much quicker (with more limited scope and bloodshed) if Germany played their cards differently. There seems to be a huge “groupthink” psychology on the German side that they HAD to knock France out of the war by offensive action from get go. What we know for certain now (and smart people at the time ALSO suspected) is that war in 1914 hugely favored defense. So that smart play would have been to defend a narrow front on the Alsace-Lorraine, deal with the Russians in the east as quickly as possible, and negotiate peace by Xmas 1915 at the latest.
Here's the thing, Nicholas II wanted a United Nations for the monarchs of Europe and Britain. He wanted there to be no war between the family members, Cousin Willy, etc.However, all of them laughed at "Cousin Nicky is just being stupid...." He never wanted war. He begged Willy to not do this. He was cordial right up to just before the Kaiser mobilized. By that point Nicholas had no choice but to mobilize. Around the time of the reburial of the Romanovs in 1997 in the St. Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, so-called historian Gwyn Dyer wrote an opinion that was syndicated. He said a bunch of nonsense he ended by saying, "All the ills of the 20th Century can be thrown at the feet of Nicholas II all because he was decisive." When so-called historians don't or won't tell the truth that Kaiser Wilhelm was the one responsible for starting all of that by his refusal to listen to reason, how do we trust anything they say? It was irresponsible.
I think it's difficult for many people today (in most countries around the world) to fully understand a scenario where one person in a country/kingdom can make such monumental decisions without some form of checks and balances. Even in (most/many) countries perceived to be authoritarian (Russia, North Korea, etc) , we assume that a parliament, A congress, cabinet, etc, provide a buffer from a single leader who might be irrational, or stupid, or driven only by self interest. Clearly, that has not always been the case, nor is such a buffer inevitable.
The Austrians annexed Bosnia because the only other alternative was to let Serbia have it. Let Serbia loose on Bosnia would have resulted in a genocide on the door step of the Habsburg Monarchy, as it usually does whenever Serbs are involved. The Muslims in Bosnia knew it, and were as a rule positive to the Austrian occupation. The Croats maybe not so much, but they still rather had the Austrians than the Serbs, thank you very much. Had the Austrians not annexed Bosnia, the war might have started a few years earlier.
Austria "occupied" Bosnia at the behest of an international conference and agreement in 1875, in order to guarantee stability after the last wars against the Ottoman Empire. Only after more than 30 years administering Bosnia Austria decided to fully incorporate it into its Empire. The majority of Bosnians agreed to that. Only the Serbs were pissed off....
@riccardodececco4404 at that time serbs were majority and didn't want Austria there. Some European kings in some city drew a new maps and expected from local people to just accept it. My point is, if you want to discuss history you start from that time. Serbia had nothing to do with it. Local serbs who were the majority in Bosnia didn't want to be occupied by Germans.
@@laurentdrozin812 And that triggered the largest genocide on Balkan in Jasenovac and many other camps, when serbs from Bosnia where mass collected and executed. And also Austrian troops killing local population at mass (nothing new). There are photos of villagers hanged all along the roads. To go back to my point. If you want to talk about WWI, as an historian you have to start with Austria occupying neighboring country and say that Mlada Bosna was a local organization. After that you can bring other things.
@daliborm Are we talking about the same war? Jasenovac was during WWII, and was driven by the Croats, not by Austrians. The Austrians DID commit atrocities on the Serbians during WWI, but not during the period prior. Bosnia was actually quite tranquil during that period, except for the Serbs extremists.
Anatol Rappaport did, IIRC, an analysis that shows that Germany had more trade with what we would call 'defense contractors' than they did with France, so Germany had incentives to go to war with France. Britain had far more trade with France than with Germany, so they had incentives to take the side of France. Similar analysis made of other nations had similar results, completely dictating which side that each nation took in the war. The timing was set by the completion of the Kiel Canal on one side, and the state of the Russian military reform. All the other nations beside Germany had a number of mobilization plans, but Germany only had one- to Mobilize the Army and invade France through Belgium. The initial assembly areas of some divisions were actually inside Belgium, dependent on the rapid advance of earlier mobilizing units.
There were in fact several German "colonies" in Brazil, much before the Kaiser's time. For instance, my hometown, Petrópolis, in the range of hills north of Rio, was a 19th century immigration experiment mostly from what today is Germany. My father, who was born in the late 1930s, once commented that in his childhood the German language could still be widely heard in the streets.
When the kaiser was 19 he was brought here to ilfracombe by his tutor. They were spending the afternoon on raparee beach, the tutor wandered off rock pooling and Wilhelm became bored so started throwing pebbles at the numbers on the doors of the beach huts ( right handed one assumes). Alfie Price aged16 takes exception to this, ‘ furriner’, throwing pebbles at the huts owned by his father and challenges him about it. Wilhem did the “ do you know who I am”, bit but Alfie didn’t care so they got into a fight and he bloodied the kaiser’s nose. Alfie was given cash to keep quiet but that was never going to work. There was a song written about it but I will spare you that. Allegedly this story was circulated in the trenches to boost morale. This surely would have done nothing to improve Wilhelm’s feelings towards the British. 😅
They did have a military plan for the east but of course being the Austrian Hungarian empire they changed the details, late, made the men march too long in the heat and then......outnumbered, attacked, nordstross! another mad Conrad idea to defeat the Russians quickly. These larger Russian forces then destroyed them and pushed them back to the mountains (and prezmizyl) in chaos. They took unbelievable causal ties. They also had a floating staffel that wandered to Serbia, left after the first of 3 failed invasions and headed slowly back to the Russian front. another mad Conrad idea. they did have a plan, but so wonderfully in keeping with how these two great guys described the Austrian empire. It was shit or wonderfully preposterous. Thanks for another amazing episode guys.
I will give the Kaiser cresit for one thing. Once he saw the anti semitism of the nazis went far beyond the casual antisemitism of the upper classes, he very openly rebuked them and his own children for not distancing themselves from nazism.
As a Viennese in the 5th generation i can say that almost everything about austrian mentality is on point. Regarding Bad Ischl (summer residence of Franz Josef during the july crisis) - ''Bad'' literally means bath or SPA, so Mr. Holland was absolutely right, there was a Spa, even up to this day and i was laughing so hard at that point. 🤣😂All the best from Vienna.
Objectively though, why would the Germans launch a very risky pre-emptive war against the French when they could have chosen a more limited defensive war, first against the Russians and then, maybe if the French invade, against the French. The Germans had the clearly supperior military machine and they should have felt confident in being able to pull off this strategy. This would have been a much lower risk approach than simply invading France through Belgium. My recollection from "The Guns of August" is that it was the German General staff that pushed for the invasion and the Kaiser just caved in and went along with the plan.
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The two of you look exactly like I’ve imagined, after the hundreds of hours of listening to you while working outside in the east coast Canadian weather. You two have gotten me through a lot of long days! Thank you very much, enjoying the longer episodes and series lately! The Longer the Better it gets! Thank you fellas
Yes, Dominic is well on the way to looking like Churchill but Tom has some way to go to look like Alexander!
they both want to be Wilhelm
The Kaiser is the patron saint of this podcast, he's in like literally every episode, he's such a comic figure, at least before his exile.
You mean the Mad Woodchopper of Doorn was not also comical?
Great episode! Love the extended length. Thank you both for your diligent work :)
Thank you !
They also besides their obvious historical knowledge have a great charisma and wonderful sense of light humour.
Dominic has long been a favourite British social historian of mine.
Tom’s brother James Holland along with Al Murray are two other great historians who give a fascinating but enjoyable view of history.
Can’t wait to hear the episode where the ostrich is shot 😉
Determined to compete with Dan Carlin? LOL
@@tommonk7651 IMHO they're much better than Carlin, more entertaining even too. I don't appreciate how he's always trying to be so edgy all the time.
@@twelvecatsinatrenchcoat They are very good. I'm just referencing the length of Carlin's episodes.
Easy. Someone could have fed Archie Duke. Then he wouldn’t have needed to shoot the ostrich if he wasn’t hungry.
can never go wrong with BA references
Got it
Excellent reference 😂
Lol you beat me to it 😃👍
So the poor old ostrich died for nothing!
Top bants - top entertainment - top information. How can educative podcasts be so entertaining? Hats off to you both.
"top entertainment", indeed!
Love the banter between them and they make history fun. My favourite podcast and never to be beaten!
Thank you !
Sadly too many history teachers are not like these two.
Franz Josef had already been goaded into two disastrous wars in which he believed he was in the right - in 1859 and 1866. The religious sense had always been a part of Habsburg policy. An excellent episode btw.
Thank you !
I think he always convinced himself that every war was existential and about dynastic survival.... in other words to lose a war or fail to fight one would be disastrous for his regime. The "lose a war" part is obvious.... but the "fail to fight one" was the fatal error.
With a persistent war mongerer like Chief of staff Conrad Von Hotzendorff demanding war and the moderating voice of Franz Ferdinand removed from the scene he was fatally influenced towards war. His circle of advisors lost the principal voice for peace whose ghost now arguably demanded revenge.
Brilliant quote
‘It’s not that there are too few facts available but that there are too many’
Also works for the world of the internet and social media we now live in sadly 😔
38:30 is best ad read ever. 7 seconds and could not have been better placed. Well done.
I am delighted you are delving into WWI
Thank you !
Those last 2 lines of Wilfred Owen's poem still give me chills more than 50 years after I first read it. Thank you so much for these programs
Very enjoyable presentation.
The downside of learning history (or The Shock of History, as Dominique Venner called it) is that pretty much everything in it could have been avoided.
Relaxing, jovial, "light but serious", intriguing, entertaining and so informative and educational! You guys are great.
Thank you
Great stuff - thank you for this very detailed and balanced analysis! I'm currently teaching a course on the literature of the First World War and will be recommending your podcast to all my students.
"I think a curse should rest on me - because I love this war. I know it's smashing and shattering the lives of thousands every moment - and yet - I can't help it - I enjoy every second of it." - Winston Churchill
Written to a friend during 1914-19
The Great War for Civilisation, I didn’t believe in it then and I believe in it less so now
JRR Tolkien circa 1960s
Personally I’m with Tolkien
Amen
I knew a very old man as a young woman. He used to write dogrell poetry (brilliantly) and sell anti-war religious tracts in the pubs in the town I grew up in. One day I asked why he did what he did. He sat down, and for a pint of Guinness told me about trench warfare in WWl. In the end, over many years, I got to become a friend of his. I used to spend Sunday afternoons in the local Royal British Legion Club with him and his mates. They had all died by the end of the 1990's. Three of them, who had never married mainly due to "shell shock," left me their medals when they died. I was also given a couple of dress uniforms. I donated them, with my notes of their war stories, to the local museum with all the handwritten notes i had made of their stories of their war and photos they had given me. Miraculously, while they had lost classrooms full of friends, these 5 had survived. I still pop in to see the display.
@@jessicarowley9631😢
And people still think Churchill was a hero. He was the exact opposite, the destroyer of the British empire.
I'm curious when he wrote this. Was it when he was on the Western Front or was it when he was safely at home in Parliament?
i give thunbs up the moment i hear the theme music. This is my comfort channel. 🙌
Thank you !
Fascinating discussion! I am so sad I won’t be able to see you while you are in the U.S.! (A fan from Kansas.)
Just want to say how much I love this show. It’s just fantastic and both speakers are simply incredible and fluid and so well prepared. Love it so much. Listen to it all the time while cycling to and from work in Shenzhen, China.
From the super interesting talk of these two great fellows , I get that with Kaiser Whilhelm , you never know when he is going to say something very sensible .
There was a good documentary on WW1 that showed that really most of the Power in Germany ; once War was decided passed to the military Ludendorff and Hindenburg . The democratic parliament was basically ignored , until they were forced to negotiate the Armistice .
@@AnthonyBrown12324and to avoid responsibility for the defeat of Germany te right wing and the German senior military promote the stab in the back myth that led us to the national socialists and the Austrian house painter.
@@AnthonyBrown12324 true _but_ Kaiser Willy set the political direction and had the veto up till the shooting started , so his incredible naivety and willful ignorance was still a - the - major factor.
@ Yes , that is true
Best History Podcast! Thanks from Canada!
Thank you for helping me on the path of light and frivolous reading. The podcast is a nice accompaniment.
I have been listening to the pod for a while and now can put a face to it. I would have you take this as a compliment. You two have the best emoji faces I have ever seen. Angelic and wise. Angular and then distinctly not angular. A scoop of vanilla ice cream with kind eyes.
These are just fantastic thank you for this hello from Brazil 🇧🇷
The borders in Europe were fluid. The Balkans had become highly unstable after the Ottomans had been driven out. France was still sore over losing the Alsace. The generals had railways, breech loading guns, mortars and cannons to experiment with. The admirals had battleships, submarines and airships to experiment with. Behind the lines they now had big factories to churn out munitions. The military were keen to try out the new weapons, strategies and tactics. There hadn't been a big modern war since the 1860's and 70's. The monarchies and generals dressed in colourful uniforms but their medals were from long long ago. The young officer class were frustrated with peace that provided no chance to make a name for themselves. They were envious of Britain's military adventures in Africa. They wanted to see some action like the young Churchill did. The new moving pictures in cinemas were showing an exciting world of rapid movement and fights over matters of honour. A few big battles in 1914 would satisfy the thrill seekers and resolve the border disputes. Hoorah!!!
Tom's sudden yet dramatic voice change during his insane impression of Franz Joseph around 55:00 was legit the funniest shit ever 😂 LMAO! Thanks gents
Dom was also laughing in the background. Lol I personally loved the special effects on the video.
just brilliant 😂😂😂
Love the banter you two have . Was laughing to myself listening to you two .
Oh man this one will be a great one. Absolutely Love this podcast I learn so much. Thank you guys!
Serbia not being blamed is ludicrous.
Serbs have always resisted occupiers . Ottomans for 500 years, Hitler from 1941 to 1945. Do you seriously think the Austrians would subjugate them ?
Even the Croats and Muslims in Bosnia joined Princip in the Mlada Bosna ( Young Bosnia) Yugoslav patriotic group who fought for freedom
@@simapark Most Croatians and Bosnians did certainly not support the Serbs.
@TheAustrianAnimations87
Don't be ridiculous every occupied and subjugated group in the Austro -Hungarian empire wanted their independence. Slovaks , Czechs, Croats,Bosnian Muslims ,Poles Ukranians ,Romanians, etc . The Croats were particularly pro Yugoslav . It was Austrian propoganda that it was only Serbs who were against military occupation as the Serbs were the most dangerous minority so they tried the old colonial tactic of divide and rule but it failed which is shown by the presence if Croats and Muslims in the Mlada Bosna organisation .
There were zero Austrians living in Bosnia when they annexed it, so it was only a matter of time before it blew up in their faces .
Brilliant podcast, gentlemen!
Incredible podcast, please dont be afraid to revist some old episodes now you have cameras
Also longer the better in episode length!
"Is there a spa?" I was saying it at the exact same time.
I always listen to you guys while I’m working… I didn’t know that you have a TH-cam channel. Lols!
Loved the intro guys.
Thank you, this was a lot of fun
Been seeing every episode since I saw your first series on the french revolution. Great info ! And great humor! I'm probably Your biggest follower from India.
Thank you !
The German word "Bad" (literally "bath") in the name of a town means that it is a spa.
As in Baden Baden!
Excellent. I learned a lot from the nuances in the details...
Thank you !
I can’t find the previous series on the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Could someone please let me know where I can find it? 🙏
What probably a lot of English speaking people don't realize is that in German the emperor of Austria-Hungary was called Kaiser as well - indeed as the successor to the Holy Roman emperors he was the original Kaiser and the Prussian one was an upstart. I think there was actually a song at the time -"There is only one Imperial city / there's only one Vienna!"
Well no, Kaiser is simply the german word for emperor. They held two different imperial titles and the one held by Franz Josef did not include the other german realms as not only had the title "King of the Germans" become defunct since the destruction of the HRE but his Title of Kaiser only refered to the lands within the Austrian parts of the Habsburg empire. It is hard to claim that the Prussian ruling house of Germany were upstarts as technicaly they had not claimed the original title meant for the rulers of Germany proper, Their current titles were either held since the 1300's, 16/1700's or Created in 1871. And of course the Austrians might feel like the Prussians were upstarts but the truth is they would never have united Germany so it is rather hard to feel sympathy for people crying about a title they never even would have had.
@@christianandersson4345 But the Austro-Hungarian ruler was referred to as the kaiser by his own subjects was he not? -which was the point I made originally. In English it is an extremely handy thing to refer to him as an emperor and the German one as the Kaiser but both were Kaisers were they not.? And of course the word "Czar" and "Tsar" are merely the Russian forms of "Kaiser' -and it is merely a handy thing to keep at as such and not translate it as "emperor." Funny that we don't do the same thing for other potentates like the emperors of China and Japan but we did it for Iran (Shah) and Abyssinia (Negus.)
@@kaloarepo288 Yes that is correct sorry if i missed your point. I think it might really have to do with history painting both the leadership of Germany and Russia as a sort of backwards historical villain that was led more by an instiution than a man or indivudal. The Kaiser does invoke a certain feeling i suspect in many that simply emperor does not. Or it could simply have to do with the greater focus placed on these rulers in western teaching, If i say Kaiser or Tzar you would instantly know what nation i am speaking of, if i said Ten'nō most would not. Or it could be other factors but an interesting point nonetheless.
"What probably a lot of English speaking people don't realize is that in German the emperor of Austria-Hungary was called Kaiser as well - indeed as the successor to the Holy Roman emperors he was the original Kaiser"
That´s not really true. Basically it´s not true at all. Kaiser means somebody who receives this title from the pope in Rome. This is what set him apart for centuries from all the other rulers in Europe. This and only this made a king becoming Emperor. The conferment of the imperial dignity by the head of the Catholic Church was simply a basic requirement. Without this one couldn´t be Emperor.
In 1806 the last German-Roman Emperor Franz II vacated this title and made himself Emperor of Austria instead which is nothing else than a fantasy title and therefore the same poppyckock as "German Emperor" what the Hohenzollern were or Emperor of the French what Napoleon called himself or Emperess of India what the Brits did. In the 18th century all of a sudden every Tom, Dick and Harry called himself Emperor. But all of the aforementioned titles (including Austrian Emperor) are just fantasy titles which don´t even make sense, it´s the same as somebody would have called himself "Tenno of Meckelnburg" or "Pharao of Saxony".
@@kodor1146 So you deny that the subjects of the Austria-Hungarian empire ,in German, referred to their emperor as "Kaiser" which is all I was trying to say - after all I have been to the Kaisergruft (Imperial crypt) in the Capuchin convent in Vienna and here most of the Habsburg Kaisers are buried including post 1806 ones like Francis and Franz Josef. Whether or not it was a fantasy title is totally besides the point. English is selective in referring to foreign potentates - in some examples as with shah, sultan, maharajah, czar and (Prussian) Kaiser, the correct untranslated title is used but for most not -other wise we would be talking about, the rey of Spain, the re of Italy, the roi of France, the kong of Denmark, the wang of China ad infinitum!
Have started listening to you on Spotify and ended up here, amazing work and content guys! Kia ora from Aotearoa..
Thank you !
Thanks guys that was fantastic!
WW1 was avoidable, and once it started, it was containable, and once it had expanded, it could have been ended through negotiation. But nobody in power really wanted to stop the madness of all this. This is the real tragedy of WW1 - it was the first war between great powers that became a war of hate, of xenophobia. The wars of the 18th century, such as the War of Austrian Succession or the Seven Years' War, and even the Napoleonic Wars of the early 19th century, were all wars between monarchs, or at least between ruling aristocracies. They were not populist wars. The average English peasant, craftsman, shopkeeper or factory worker cared very little about the war with Napoleon, they were more concerned with day to day survival. Newspapers were read by the educated elite, not the public at large. By 1914 though, great power governments had become either democratic or semi-democratic. And the one truly authoritarian government, that of Russia, was poorly run, with a Tsar who lacked political common sense. The power of the media in 1914 had reached the working class, and whipped up the xenophobia, insisting on a war of revenge, a war of total victory and destruction of the enemy. WW1 was the beginning of the age of barbarism, that would culminate in Auschwitz and the atomic bomb explosion on Hiroshima.
Nobody in power wanted to stop the madness of all this… deja vu in Ukraine
Well, it's debatable, as you know, it was tense, and A-H Serbia had been on the brink of war for years before the actual War. There was a trade embargo placed on Serbia so when there was an incident when a peasant from Serbia tried to smuggle a [ig into occupied Bosnia and got caught, both armies took positions and during the "Pig Incident" we were an accidental shot away from starting the war early. it was a tense standoff but it was diplomatically solved at the end.Of course the Serbian people were celebrating when the Archduke was killed... Even if it started earlier, Russia would have supported Serbia so don't know how to contain it from then... But it would be a more interesting story with a moral, because we would be aware that the greatest war and human suffering until then was caused by as smuggled pig.. describes us humans pretty well...
You mean the napoleonic peninsular war (1M death) or russian campaign (1M death) were about monarchs?
beautiful part! I don`t know why i found your channel just now. Keep up the great work.
But don`t forget, that a lot of the scary methods mentioned on the arm of little Willy, where aplied by doctors which his mom Vicky brought into the court. ;)
BTW: A wonderful Saxonian accent at the letter of Franz. I almost forget he was Austrian. :D
I've read the Black Lamb and the Grey Falcon by Rebecca West which covers a bit of this history and I've been to Sarajevo and visited the museum about the assassination. Your coverage of this has been very informative for me.
War occurred because the will for peace in the summer of 1914 faltered. In every other previous European crisis since the 1870s there was a peace/diplomatic conference to solve the issue. Had European powers held a conference in July/August to agree on sanctions against Serbia this whole thing would have been avoided. The biggest mystery for me is why nobody took this initiative as they had several times before. This is the key. A subtle shift in the balance between those that wanted to prevent war in Europe and those that wanted war took place.
The death of Franz Ferdinand destroyed the peace party in the Austrian Hungarian court. Fair enough. But it doesn't explain why the peace/diplomacy parties failed simultaneously in Germany; Russia; France and Britain. And I suspect that it was a very near thing. Because the instinct to hold a conference was well established and had produced excellent results.
For example did the British Foreign secretary Grey suggest a conference? He was an obvious choice to suggest it as Britain was a great power and officially on the fence. Other European powers would have had to respond diplomatically to such an initiative. Not pointing the finger as Grey was the last person responsible for the mess. But to me its an enduring mystery that diplomatic efforts to coordinate an agreed response to the assassination crisis were apparently stillborn.
We note desperate measures by the Tsar and Kaiser to prevent the mess after their council of ministers/Military General staff had taken decisive decisions towards partial or full mobilization. But a two way exchange of plaintive telegrams was not a serious initiative but more about blame shifting for historical purposes. Had they been serious they would have called for a (1) conference preceded by a (2) cooling off.
So again...why oh why did nobody formally propose a diplomatic conference. Or if somebody did; why was it ignored....or refused..
Greed for new imperial territory and markets, sorry for short Leninist answer
Was there a diplomatic conference when Empress Sissi was murdered or Alexander II? The archduke wasn't even a full heir as his marriage got rejected by the Austrian emperor
@2adamast nonsense points. He was the heir and was murdered in a plot by a foreign government's deep state military called the Black Hand. Who had already wiped out their own royal family.
If you can't tell the difference between that and ordinary terrorism then you need help.
Do you feel we're sliding away from order into chaos? Are you afraid of the future? I am.
What all history should be, very humorous and entertaining.
Hungarian here, yes you butchered the name--used to it. A helpful guide, In Hungarian the accent is always on the first SYLlable. BTW, Maria Vetsera, Prince Rudy's "squeeze" was my great aunt. Love every subject that you cover in this podcat.
It reminded me of A-level history lessons in the 1970s and AJP Taylor. My views have evolved. Under Bismarck’s constitution, the Kaiser was in charge of foreign policy and the military. However, the army had marginalised him by 1914 and didn’t take him seriously. A military dictatorship ran Germany during the war. Moltke was the war’s real architect. He wanted to crush Russia before it became too powerful. It had nothing to do with Belgium, France or even Britain. The two countries shared a long border in Poland. Russia had a large army which was rapidly modernising. Moltke wanted a preemptive strike, unfortunately for Germany, the Schlieffen Plan didn’t work. Moltke was encouraging the Austrians to beat up Serbia. Moltke didn't care if Britain joined the war because it had a tiny army. Had Britain stayed out, the war would probably have played out like the Franco-Prussian War, the Germans would have grabbed some territory in France and then left. It would then focus on defeating Russia. The participation of the British Empire turned it into a total war, which was the only way Britain could win. A total war was disastrous for Britain.
I have lived in the US for 25 years, where they live and breathe great power politics. The war was a disaster for Britain. The British Empire was the world’s largest economy until 1916. The war severely weakened Britain. The Americans took over as the West’s leading power. The Victorians were pragmatic and understood geopolitics, unlike the Liberals in 1914 and most British 20th-century politicians. Palmerston, Gladstone and Salisbury avoided fighting wars Britain could not win easily. Gladstone stayed out of the Franco-Prussian War after making a deal with Bismarck. He did not care about France and believed it was not in Britain’s national interest to fight the Germans. Britain would have avoided the war had Salisbury still been PM. Grey hated the Germans and found them rude, he was an idiot. Churchill liked a good war, both were arguing in the Cabinet that France had to be protected at all costs, which was bonkers.
Agreed. Also, Moltke diluted the Schlieffen plan in Belgium/France. Churchill was an absolute maniac war hawk who also had international banking financiers. I see WW1 as a war of nationalism vs internationalism.
Another fantastic episode. So important with Russia on the march to know this sort of history. Let’s hope our leaders are not sleepwalking today. So powerful to start with Owen’s poem.
Surely you mean NATO on the March
Lol lib delusion posting today are we?
Yeah well I don’t want a war. Each to their own.
@@richcole157The West provoked the Tragedy in Ukraine
The only people that really wanted that war sat in Washington London and Wall Street
Our Leaders are mortgaged to Arrogance and Delusion
Along with many of there populations I’d add
Tom's Franz Josef is the template for the Daleks
Mention Niall Ferguson and The Pity of War. Ferguson’s explanation of WW1 is absolutely spot on. Britain should have stayed out.
Germany victorious, dominating the Continent, would've let Britain remain supreme at sea? Ferguson (who, yes is brilliant) admits his argument depends on Germany benevolent in victory, aka the EU. Britain depended on sea power, not being self-sufficient, or having an army. Personally I can't blame the FO but, even so, they were losing the argument before Germany entered Belgium.
Best history talk anywhere. 👍🎬
Most informative and entertaining, as always! But, in addition, there already was a military defense pact between Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy - didn't it play a part?
Wow, super discussion.
Dear Dominic,
You talk about sailing the Baltic about the Kaisers cruise to the Norwegian fjords. I do not know if it sailed from Kiel to Norway through the Kiel canal or if it sailed through the Danish strait, but it was more a north sea or north Atlantic ocean journey than an Baltic one.
Great channel by the way.
My eyes quite literally rolled into the back of my head when I heard "The Sleepwalkers" continuously cited, a work which subscribes to the ever-fashionable "tragic accident" (exacerbated by political incompetence) school of history. I was also aghast when Sandbrook said that "no serious historian" has assigned blame [to Germany], when Fritz Fisher's "Germany's Aims in the First World War" has existed for over sixty years. "Dreadnought" by Robert Massie has also provided invaluable context in explaining pre war German strategic brinkmanship in creating the environment in which the war could be precipitated, such as the annexation of Alsace-Lorraine following the Franco-Prussian War, Holstein and Bulow deliberately failing to renew their country's non-aggression pact with Russia, and their administration's provokation of France over colonial disputes in North Africa.
The podcast also contains a narrative inconsistency in prefacing the Kaiser's lack of absolute power [in the context of contributing to the outbreak of the war), yet simultaneously assigning great weight to his interactions with other European leaders in contributing to the conflagration. The podcast also completely omits to mention the huge support for a pre-emptive anti-slavic war amongst German academia, industry, and the military - all of which agreed on the strategic aim of seizing raw materials in the east to compensate for Germany's pre war trade deficit caused by a lack of domestic resources. No mention of the "Mitteleuropa" plan, which codified this, to create a German-dominated central and eastern European trading bloc of client states, including vast tracts of redistributed Russian territory.
I'm a huge fan of the podcast, but this was a surface-level, sophomoric analysis of the causes of the conflict which sadly neglected appreciate why so many people people historically blamed Germany for the war - a phenomenon based in historiographical reality, at least up until the mid twentieth century.
Well I'm sleepwalking over a precipice. A triumph of an episode. Listener from New Zealand
Thank you !
Great topic
The german ,,Stop in Belgrade‘‘- Proposal was great. But the Austrians wanted a great war with Serbia and France wanted war with Germany cause the wanted the Alsace back. And the President of France Poincare came from the Alsace and wanted this Territory back at all cost.
I want to congratulate whoever edited that opening skit. Really funny
You're welcome, from the editor. :)
I loved this pod cast. But certainly it is not a revelation that Germany was not the bad guy in WW1. I look forward to your Russia episode.
Wilhelm’s arm paralysis wasn’t necessarily caused by doctors’ panic during his breech delivery. Before C-sections were routine, breech deliveries were quite dangerous as the baby’s head (and biggest part) would be last to deliver, and a baby hung up by the head (alongside a compressed umbilical cord) would quickly asphyxiate. Brachial plexus injuries like Wilhelm’s were often the result of the traction on the baby’s neck necessary to complete the delivery and save its life.
The business with the slaughtered hares, now, THAT was nuts.
When these two get laughing, I can't help but laugh as well.
The injury to the Kaiser is called shoulder dystocia and is a common complication during delivery, particularly before cesarian section was common. I doubt the doctors were particularly negligent just because he had this injury.
I don't know why for some reason the French have trouble with government
Why couldn't the two of you be my history teachers when I was school? I would ace every test, every episode feels like a coffee conversation between friends that I can just pick up a mug and join. If only I could tell my ten year old self that its not the subject its the teacher and years later I will be gobbling historical podcasts like a mad woman!
World War One was unleashed & gathered a deadly momenum that no one was able to predict. For the first time in history you had the ability to mobilize a massive army that you could keep feeding with fresh troops, that you could move rapidly, could keep fed & armed ad infinitum. Revolutions in industrial production, farming, communications such as railways, huge ships & telegraphs all came together into a conflgration that suddenly no one could stop from being carried along by.
It’s funny that the bell that rang for me (in America) when you mentioned Zimmerman was Bob Dylan, and I was so disappointed that Bob did not figure into your story
It's really funny how they talk about Bad Ischl, because I've been there two years ago, and the place literally looks exactly like they describe it.
The Prime Minister of Serbia at the time, who had been the leading politician for decades, was named Pacic. He was a relative moderate by Serbian standards. His private papers, as well description's of cabinet meetings by former cabinet members in their memoirs, indicate that he was eager to hand over the four "hawk" members of the intelligence directorate who had aided the assassins. to Austria.He hated and feared the intelligence department, knowing that they had committed appalling atrocities in the past. But he never told the Austrians of his wishes, at least not directly. If the Austrians had known of his willingness to cooperate with them, war could have been averted. Of course the Serbian response to the Austrian Ultimatum at the end of July (I think it was July) was couched in very conciliatory language and acceded to most of Austria's demands, including a promise to hand over to Austria the one suspect whom the Austrians, up to that time ,had been able to identify. It is clear to me that that Austria should have put their invasion plans on hold and continued negotiations with Serbia after receiving this conciliatory response to their ultimatum. If the Austrians had shown restraint at this time, war miay have been avoided,
There are two things you historians must correct public perception: 1) The causes of WWI and how the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was just a catalyst; 2) How it was the 1930s deflation and not the 1920s hyperinflation that cause the nazis to rise to power.
I'm surprised they glossed over Tom's plans to invade NY.
No comment
Where is the previous series on the causes of WWI? I don’t see a playlist for it in the various playlists.
Britain wrecked itself fighting wars it couldn’t afford in the first part of the 20th century
America is doing the same thing this century
Col Macgregor Ret
Macgregor works for Putin
What wars is America fighting?
@@michaelnewsham1412 The US is in declared or undeclared wars most of the time, from 1775. Since 2021 our "allies" are doing most of the kinetic action, with our backing of course. ;-)
Remember, the oligarchs rule both nations (really it’s one system).
@@michaelnewsham1412Where have you been for the last 30yrs
In a cave ?
Then there was Vietnam of course
Christopher Clark's basic premise in "The Sleepwalkers" is not really that different from that put forward by Lloyd George in his post war memoirs when he says that Europe "slithered over the edge" into war. The basic idea being that nobody actively sought a war.
The one country that could have ended the July Crisis at any point was Germany. If Germany had told her ally in Vienna not to react militarily to the assassination of Franz Ferdinand and his wife things would have been differnt. The key debate is over the reasons why Germany acted as she did. Was it because Germany saw an opportunity to launch an aggressive war an a favourable moment? (The Fritz Fischer thesis).Or was it because those taking the decisions in Berlin were totally incompetent and clearly not up to the task of handling a rapidly developing situation?
What do German archives and memoires say on this issue ?
Would they have taken good care of their archives or explained it in their memoires if it gave a positive view on their past decisions and actions ?
Even in 1914….the effects of mass communication from the french revolution was still playing out…even today it plays out
Shush Phil !! Such malarky from a McKay !!
what does that even mean ? Did you just want to throw it out there ?
I love this podcast.
Thank you !
Putting aside for a second whether the war could have been prevented, the war could have been concluded much quicker (with more limited scope and bloodshed) if Germany played their cards differently.
There seems to be a huge “groupthink” psychology on the German side that they HAD to knock France out of the war by offensive action from get go. What we know for certain now (and smart people at the time ALSO suspected) is that war in 1914 hugely favored defense.
So that smart play would have been to defend a narrow front on the Alsace-Lorraine, deal with the Russians in the east as quickly as possible, and negotiate peace by Xmas 1915 at the latest.
Here's the thing, Nicholas II wanted a United Nations for the monarchs of Europe and Britain. He wanted there to be no war between the family members, Cousin Willy, etc.However, all of them laughed at "Cousin Nicky is just being stupid...." He never wanted war. He begged Willy to not do this. He was cordial right up to just before the Kaiser mobilized. By that point Nicholas had no choice but to mobilize. Around the time of the reburial of the Romanovs in 1997 in the St. Peter and Paul Fortress in St. Petersburg, so-called historian Gwyn Dyer wrote an opinion that was syndicated. He said a bunch of nonsense he ended by saying, "All the ills of the 20th Century can be thrown at the feet of Nicholas II all because he was decisive." When so-called historians don't or won't tell the truth that Kaiser Wilhelm was the one responsible for starting all of that by his refusal to listen to reason, how do we trust anything they say? It was irresponsible.
Yep
I think it's difficult for many people today (in most countries around the world) to fully understand a scenario where one person in a country/kingdom can make such monumental decisions without some form of checks and balances.
Even in (most/many) countries perceived to be authoritarian (Russia, North Korea, etc) , we assume that a parliament, A congress, cabinet, etc, provide a buffer from a single leader who might be irrational, or stupid, or driven only by self interest.
Clearly, that has not always been the case, nor is such a buffer inevitable.
All wars can be avoided. But there are enough people who want them to happen and can make them happen.
Is this an edit of previous audio only episodes?
Who asked Austria to occupy Bosnia?
You guys should be historian. Occupied nations do not see you as you see yourselves.
The Austrians annexed Bosnia because the only other alternative was to let Serbia have it. Let Serbia loose on Bosnia would have resulted in a genocide on the door step of the Habsburg Monarchy, as it usually does whenever Serbs are involved. The Muslims in Bosnia knew it, and were as a rule positive to the Austrian occupation. The Croats maybe not so much, but they still rather had the Austrians than the Serbs, thank you very much. Had the Austrians not annexed Bosnia, the war might have started a few years earlier.
Austria "occupied" Bosnia at the behest of an international conference and agreement in 1875, in order to guarantee stability after the last wars against the Ottoman Empire. Only after more than 30 years administering Bosnia Austria decided to fully incorporate it into its Empire. The majority of Bosnians agreed to that. Only the Serbs were pissed off....
@riccardodececco4404 at that time serbs were majority and didn't want Austria there.
Some European kings in some city drew a new maps and expected from local people to just accept it.
My point is, if you want to discuss history you start from that time. Serbia had nothing to do with it. Local serbs who were the majority in Bosnia didn't want to be occupied by Germans.
@@laurentdrozin812 And that triggered the largest genocide on Balkan in Jasenovac and many other camps, when serbs from Bosnia where mass collected and executed. And also Austrian troops killing local population at mass (nothing new). There are photos of villagers hanged all along the roads.
To go back to my point. If you want to talk about WWI, as an historian you have to start with Austria occupying neighboring country and say that Mlada Bosna was a local organization. After that you can bring other things.
@daliborm Are we talking about the same war? Jasenovac was during WWII, and was driven by the Croats, not by Austrians. The Austrians DID commit atrocities on the Serbians during WWI, but not during the period prior. Bosnia was actually quite tranquil during that period, except for the Serbs extremists.
“Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom,
Boom, Boom, Boom,
Boom, Boom, Boom, Boom…
Oh, brilliant reference 😆😆
@@hilaryc8648 Took me a minute. 😂 Blackadder ?
@@d.c.8828 ‘..Goes Forth’ yes. Its Baldrick channelling his inner Sassoon.
Boom, boom, boom?
@ Thank you Baldrick 😆
Best betterhelp ad ever
astounding how graduates of the extreme prestige can spew such malarkey. truly shocking
Just love these two!
Anatol Rappaport did, IIRC, an analysis that shows that Germany had more trade with what we would call 'defense contractors' than they did with France, so Germany had incentives to go to war with France. Britain had far more trade with France than with Germany, so they had incentives to take the side of France. Similar analysis made of other nations had similar results, completely dictating which side that each nation took in the war. The timing was set by the completion of the Kiel Canal on one side, and the state of the Russian military reform. All the other nations beside Germany had a number of mobilization plans, but Germany only had one- to Mobilize the Army and invade France through Belgium. The initial assembly areas of some divisions were actually inside Belgium, dependent on the rapid advance of earlier mobilizing units.
There were in fact several German "colonies" in Brazil, much before the Kaiser's time. For instance, my hometown, Petrópolis, in the range of hills north of Rio, was a 19th century immigration experiment mostly from what today is Germany. My father, who was born in the late 1930s, once commented that in his childhood the German language could still be widely heard in the streets.
When the kaiser was 19 he was brought here to ilfracombe by his tutor. They were spending the afternoon on raparee beach, the tutor wandered off rock pooling and Wilhelm became bored so started throwing pebbles at the numbers on the doors of the beach huts ( right handed one assumes). Alfie Price aged16 takes exception to this, ‘ furriner’, throwing pebbles at the huts owned by his father and challenges him about it. Wilhem did the “ do you know who I am”, bit but Alfie didn’t care so they got into a fight and he bloodied the kaiser’s nose. Alfie was given cash to keep quiet but that was never going to work. There was a song written about it but I will spare you that. Allegedly this story was circulated in the trenches to boost morale. This surely would have done nothing to improve Wilhelm’s feelings towards the British. 😅
The Strudelhof! Could’ve easily been dreamed up by Mel Brooks . 😂
The revelation that all wars are perpetuated by the yachting class was certainly lost on you, the Yachtish.
They did have a military plan for the east but of course being the Austrian Hungarian empire they changed the details, late, made the men march too long in the heat and then......outnumbered, attacked, nordstross! another mad Conrad idea to defeat the Russians quickly. These larger Russian forces then destroyed them and pushed them back to the mountains (and prezmizyl) in chaos. They took unbelievable causal ties.
They also had a floating staffel that wandered to Serbia, left after the first of 3 failed invasions and headed slowly back to the Russian front. another mad Conrad idea.
they did have a plan, but so wonderfully in keeping with how these two great guys described the Austrian empire. It was shit or wonderfully preposterous.
Thanks for another amazing episode guys.
This channel is interesting and entertaining. I like it, but it is very biased towards the neoliberal point of view.
Brilliant.
I will give the Kaiser cresit for one thing. Once he saw the anti semitism of the nazis went far beyond the casual antisemitism of the upper classes, he very openly rebuked them and his own children for not distancing themselves from nazism.
As a Viennese in the 5th generation i can say that almost everything about austrian mentality is on point. Regarding Bad Ischl (summer residence of Franz Josef during the july crisis) - ''Bad'' literally means bath or SPA, so Mr. Holland was absolutely right, there was a Spa, even up to this day and i was laughing so hard at that point. 🤣😂All the best from Vienna.
Best so far.. Belle epoque would be nice as a prelude
Lovely stuff lads
Thank you !
Objectively though, why would the Germans launch a very risky pre-emptive war against the French when they could have chosen a more limited defensive war, first against the Russians and then, maybe if the French invade, against the French. The Germans had the clearly supperior military machine and they should have felt confident in being able to pull off this strategy. This would have been a much lower risk approach than simply invading France through Belgium. My recollection from "The Guns of August" is that it was the German General staff that pushed for the invasion and the Kaiser just caved in and went along with the plan.
But then you can't blame the Serbs for the WWI. And that is the whole idea of those two comedians