This podcast is a tier above the rest, but I think it’s an interesting dynamic. Both are master historians with similar humor, but they sort of check each other and constantly bounce their perspectives off of each other. It’s amazing.
I had a history teacher called Mr Edwards back in high school who the passion in these podcasts remind me of so much and that set me up for success at a level and in the history modules of my degree. It’s such a joy.
I was born in 1949 in the middle of the United States into a cultural (Polish/Slavic) Roman Catholic family. Amazingly, my life and my family's life resemble Medieval Europe at the time of Luther, despite Protestant America and Modernity. Luther's most direct nemesis, Erasmus, was the humanist [man of great education] and intellectual assassin hired by the then Pope to bring an [academic] end to Martin Luther. In his response to Erasmus, Luther wrote: "Now, my good Erasmus, I entreat you for Christ's sake to keep your promise at last. You promised that you would yield to him who taught better than yourself. Lay aside respect of persons! I acknowledge that you are a great man, adorned with many of God's noblest gifts--wit, learning and an almost miraculous eloquence, to say nothing of the rest; whereas I have and am nothing, save that I would glory in being a Christian. "Moreover, I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account--that you alone, in contrast with all others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like--trifles, rather than issues--in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood (though without success); you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot." Bondage of the Will How tragic that so many historians are unaware of the "vital spot" upon which the Reformation emerged.
As a German Lutheran from a region still dominated by Lutheranism, I can confirm he still has a very important status, I don't believe there has been any other person about whom I have learned more in school.
"There is another." If you've been educated in a state-funded school in Germany you have heard about him and his former party a lot. But other than that. Yeah, probably.
@@milztempelrowski9281 you would think that but for me they actually covered Luther at least thrice in 2 different subjects, where as the Austrian painter was extensively covered but only really once.
Have been listening to these podcasts for months. Finally broke down and subscribed. But was frustrated in finding topics of particular interest in the early days. But, at last I discovered so many of those are on TH-cam! It helps comprehension to see the lads, but now I’m finding it difficult to return to Tom’s epic erudite book Dominion. I’m having such fun reviewing favorite episodes and finding older ones so easily available that I’m finding it difficult to do much else. I’ve been a Tom Holland fan for years, and the repartee between he and Dominic makes history so much more engaging and fascinating. I’ve always found it so and these two are still a revelation. Tom’s journey from classics to crediting Christianity has been similar to my own. But he has illuminated the history of Christianity in a way that made it fresh and so much more interesting than I’ve ever found it before.
OMG, I think I am Luther reborn! I am born of coal mining stock in the Mansfield area. I have worked for a copper smelting company for 25 years. I have lived in Yorkshire and I am always at odds with my employer. Issues with Turks and I even had a fight in a pub once or twice. It is only the thought of being likened to Neil Warnock that undermines my theory. Seriously, your history presentations on many subjects are absolutely superb and help me rest my mind throughout the chaos of life. Thank you.
No, they really aren't superb. Pretty lazy actually. th-cam.com/video/jgftkUMJztY/w-d-xo.html&si=-OS7WIOHspo3GPnS&fbclid=IwY2xjawFWNxxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHc18NHpYfX4nRzayPEGOUIjGOnQFYFmRR8HStuW7o_3GBjJCFLEzd_GuGA_aem_DMUCh2RVuRJQIqJ8Ex08Tw
Luther didn't like fun? Didn't he drink beer, play the lute, smuggle a dozen nuns out of a convent in barrels, marry a nun, have 6 children, and compose hyms based on beer hall tunes? Not entirely without fun, I'm thinking.
He got a load of help from vested interests before he wrote his thesis and after. It is hardly ever spoke of but I have come across one to two historians who do. The whole thing was strategically planned and not by Martin alone.
@@MSuyaythat says more of American ignorance than about the man himself. Americans live in a country brought about through European ideas, one of which very much being the broad sweep of Protestant thought, tradition and philosophy. Americans not know this doesn’t make it not true, it makes them ignorant
@@MSuyaythis is true but only for ignorance. The Catholic church has been changed drastically because of Luther, even if the Catholics do not recognize or admit this is the case.
I'd say he's definitely in the top 10. For one thing, the Vatican had become way too corrupt for its own good. It needed to be reformed. More importantly, capitalism has a lot to borrow from Luther. I'd add that the cost in human misery that Luther's ideas caused is quite significant.
I really enjoyed how a podcast about Martin Luther managed to include a mention of Neil Warnock and worm eater Sean Dyche. And the personal description of Charles V reminded me of Gareth Southgate (save the linguistic abilities).
The Luther Trail in Germany is a great way to visit Germany. The 500th was an amazing time to go …Luther was everywhere!! Tea towels, advertising sunglasses 😎, pop art. Amazing museum presentations.
The problem with Purgatory, apart from its absence from Scripture, is that is assumes that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient as a propitiation for our sins. An abominable heresy. So it was a very profitable business model of works salvation that sadly led millions astray. Thank God for Martin Luther.
@droppeddogs that is the final judgement. Purgatory is the belief that people can work off the guilt before judgement. That's why indulgences were such an abominable practice, to suggest that paying them could buy the guilt of sin of the dead. Scripture also says that man is appointed to die once and then be judged. Unless we are clothed in the imputed righteousness of Christ, we will be judged by our own works and are doomed. The sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient, and all those who believe by faith (which itself is a gift of God, so that none may boast) will not perish but have eternal life, because on the day of judgement we will be found sinless because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. His blood washes us clean. Nothing we do will ever save us. There is only one name by which man may be saved - Christ Jesus.
@droppeddogs you didn't read my post. I never said we would be judged twice. We will be judged once according to our works. On our own, we are guilty. In Christ alone are we to be found innocent. I have no problem with orthodox, it is RC and its ideas of purgatory that is without scriptural support.
Again a great podcast - painting a vivid background and context of Luther's early life. Few glitches don't take much away from that, such as the university Luther attended. Luther studied in Erfurt, not Eisenach and the oldest university in Germany is Heidelberg founded 1386.
As some one raised as a Roman Catholic, it's rather comical hearing you explain the difference between hell and purgatory without ever mentioning the difference between mortal sins and venial sins. Love the podcast!
@@jackiechan8840 Well, as I recall, a venial sin is for offenses like fighting, swearing, cheating, lying, disobeying your parents, etc.; while a mortal sin is for a serious offense of the commandments like murder or blasphemy; and, of course, anything having to do with sexual arousal outside marriage - by thought or action. The last one could be really tough on a teen age boy with exploding hormones!! All sins could be erased through confession and penance. If you died with venial sins on your soul, you spent time in purgatory; but, if you died with a mortal sin, you went to hell for all eternity.
The primary drawing line between what was "heresy" and what could remain within the Church came down not to theology or doctrine, but rather how much of a threat was the doctrine or theology to the flow of coin moving from the field to Rome.
Would you say that Arius and Pelagius and Hus and Calvin and Wycliffe all the rest of the heretics were simply cutting into Rome’s bottom line? I don’t deny for a second that the Pope was powerful and exerted immense control for well over 1500 years but I think it’s laughable to think that fight against heresies didn’t have a theological basis first and foremost
One of my sisters moved to Leicester years ago and found that her Hindu and Moslem neighbours had similar things to say as many Christians of all sects, Cof E etc included as you hint at re Catholics. All those Buddhist temples dont get built for free either. And what of the pyramids, the huge tombs of Chinese emperors? The very wealthy tried to take it all with them Our current extremely wealthy tie it up in family trusts. Plus ça change.....
about a century later the borders were consolidated. The astonishing thing is that all former Roman regions in the end stayed catholic and all the others became Protestant, spreading even into Skandinavia. The border line is more or less were the limes has been. Cologne catholic, the Rhineland catholic, Lower Saxony protestant, the core of Bavaria catholic, Frankonia protestant, Austria catholic, the West of Hungary catholic, the East of Hungary protestant, Belgium catholic, the Netherlands protestant, and so on. So all theology aside, there is some deeper cultural layer to the whole issue. It was not so much about which argument was right or wrong, but how it resonated with the people and their cultural background. All the vicious propaganda against "Roma" (he meant the pope, but he wrote Rome) didn't resonate with people who thought: "Rome? Aren't we the Romans?". Today there exists the term "phantom borders" in social science and human geography. And this is an example of such a phantom border popping up a thousand years after its existance.
@@rafalrocks that's true, Poland is a special case. But they needed allies against the Ottomans and no support would come from the Protestant side, while the Pope was sending money to pay for mercenaries and arranged alliances with the Habsburgs, Venice and Spain. In the bilingual regions the confession also had a national component. If the Poles in Silisia and other places would have also become Protestant, like the local Germans, they would have sat in one church together and than they would have probably gotten assimilated to become German as well. That's how being Catholic became part of the national identity of the Poles, like for the Irish in Ireland.
People can be made to believe almost anything unfortunately. Realising that beliefs are not always true, is part of becoming a fully functioning adult.
The fact that people seemed to gravitate to him so quickly suggests to me that if Luther didn't come forward to rebel against the Catholic establishment, someone else would have
Propaganda was spread by those who owned the printing press (the media) and the money and those who would quickly gain from the looting and destruction of the social fabric. There was a counter-revolution by the ordinary people rarely spoken of.
Bit of an anorak fact here about Eisenach. Apart from Johann Sebastian Bach being born there, it was the home of Wartburg cars which were built there until Opel acquired the factory post unification. I know, not quite in the Luther/reformation league but appeals to the nerd in me.
In the case of Hussites, for instance, it could be easily argued that they were in fact proto-Reformers. Hus was a follower of Wycliffe and the Lollards in England who preceded Luther by quite some time but had many of the same objections and rejected several of the sacraments, believed in consubstantiation, etc. Hus was an early Reformer, much like Luther; a pre-Luther if you will. From a Catholic perspective, ALL Protestants are simply heretics, not substantively different from Arius or Pelagius
27:55 small correction, it's the oldest university in modern Germany, at this point in time the two oldest universities in the HRE were Vienna and Prague, which at this point in time both were very much German cities.
The balding fellow on the right apparently thinks that east of Germany there was no Europe anymore. He says the Catholic church "business" was developed and practiced in Germany more than anywhere else in Europe and he mentions France and Spain etc., but he doesn't mention Poland, which at that time was a powerful state and very Catholic too.
Some very astute observations gentlemen, and quite enjoyable. The Catholic Church has regrettably jettisoned the notion of purgatory these days. Someone once described purgatory as being akin to the film 'Groundhog Day', where you are condemned to live the same day over and over until you shed your ego and start relating from the heart, thus acquiring the perfection of soul needed to enter heaven. I find that comparison oddly satisfying.
That just shows that the church has been making it up as they go along since the beginning. Most of the things that the Catholic Church have their followers due, was not established by Jesus or is in the Bible. The rituals and idols and Saints and crossing oneself are all to keep you in the fold.
@@manchester.misfit6297 indeed - the distinction between works of the law vs works done under grace (which St. Paul mentions as good works or gracious works)
The Lord Jesus Christ, St Paul in his epistles (you have 'quote mined' here), the epistle of St James, Book of Revelation et al ALL make clear we are saved by Faith AND works. 'Saved by Faith alone' is a dangerous heresy invented 500 hundred odd years ago.
Your introduction is catching. however, putting a thesis on a cathedral door was not unusual. The spread of the thesis was remarkable thanks to the printing press and the owners of the printing press, as well as their interest in the matter?. the money to pay for the spread of Martins's writings?
I think you guys could do a great episode on Savonarola… very interesting his takeover of Firenze and the burning of paintings and books and his battles against Alexander vi
I am searching for a good biography of Martin Luther that captures the man and his place in history warts and all. I appreciate all recommendations. Thanks in advance.
Hmm who really takes the universe for granted? Some of us do due diligence and read/watch the evidence. As a lapsed Catholic I never believed the bread and wine of the Mass was body and blood. It’s a sentiment and something to celebrate/take seriously/consider deeply. Not everyone is completely empty inside or uncaring of facts. Far from that.
I think the reformation would have still happened without Luther, stirrings of the reformation existed long before Luther was born but the Catholic Church had been keeping a lid on it, however with the advent of the printing press it could no longer be contained
Just an observation for the editor on this one, It feels as if Tom and Dominic's audio and video aren't quite lined up, there seems to be the odd point where Tom's responses or reactions to what Dominic is saying are delayed and/or they talk over one another briefly.
Ever since seeing Terry Jones's Martin Luther (axed scene from Monty Python's Meaning of Life), I can't take him seriously any more... "Honest! I don't look at your girls! I don't even think about them! There! I put them out of my mind! Their arms, their necks... their little legs... and bosoms... I wipe from my mind."
Isn't Martin a good Brooklyn boy in these scenes? It says a lot for Christianity vs Islam that anyone can draw images of Luther and poke fun of him, compared to the way we are forced to walk on eggshells about the unsavoury things Muhammed got up to
@@d.c.8828 British and Irish school system don't cover it either. I know England wasn't a major player in the war but still it is one of the biggest conflicts in European history. Deserves some limelight.
@@zeroconnectionThat's actually kind of shocking to me that it is not covered by British and Irish public/primary/secondary school curriculums! Of course I am well aware that the region was preoccupied with their own Reformations/civil wars/wars of conquest/attempts at independence, but it is surprising to me that it isn't at least mentioned as a continental theme of conflict in the era!
Perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised, because the U.S. public school system completely neglects covering the Canadian perspective/repercussions of the War of 1812, or the Latin American and Caribbean wars of independence from Spain, France, Portugal, etc.
I've been a listener for a couple years and a week or two ago, during a Rest is History Club bonus ep, was, I think, the first time they ever even mentioned the Thirty Years War. That's at the top of my wish list, but it would probably require 120 episodes.
The current Muslim year is 1445 and I can't help but think that these descriptions of barbaric beliefs in Europe's Middle Ages could be describing today's primative beliefs in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syria
The year, the people, and belief system do not matter. All are human, all is barbarity. Splitting hairs about it can be noble though. Our priests and pastors touch children to this day. Law enforcement commits as much senseless and egregious crime as the general public. Paupers exchange time and freedom for imagined and perceived slights against the state. It might be 1445 in the Muslim world, but it's only 2024 in the West. We've a long, long way to go before we cease to be apex predators and our own favorite prey, no matter the nation or religion.
@@subcitizen2012 the quickest and easiest way to understand any religious and/or ideological philosophy, is to go to ‘the book and the man’. Islam has a very different book, and man, to that of Christianity. The latter has more in common with Liberalism. Probably, in no small part, due to the presence of Christianity in the hearts and minds of the Nations that developed it. Especially the people who wrote the books that formed the basis for what we know as Liberalism, today. However, that very same Liberalism, and all it’s strains, offshoots and manifestations, like Liberal Democracy, are anathema to the former, which bears more resemblance to fascist ideology, to my mind, after somewhat in depth study, but far from complete.
Atheist here. So i am quite neutral about most faith based arguments. For one, when there's a war there's someone paying for it. Regions like Iraq or Syria have terrible things going on because really rich, powerful dudes decided it was worth killing for. Now, as far as a comparison goes, I've read a demographic theory, and like all demographic theories it should be taken with a grain of salt. Whenever a population has too many young men and not enough jobs, you'll end up seeing conflict. As long as you keep them engaged and employed, things won't turn too violent.
I enjoy your videos especially Twentieth century politics, as they still feel relevant today... how about the "decline" of Christianity and the growth of humanism in the west..cheers
These guys keep mentioning the "elect". The concept of the elect is entirely a Calvinistic one and has nothing to do with Lutheranism. Lutheranism in general is actually a minority of a minority in the world so not a super powerful long-lived phenomenon. Further the churches referred to as "sweeping Brazil" are Pentecostal which is something Luther would have had nothing to do with.
I still think the Reformation was inevitable. Christianity was too central and pervasive, it would not be capable of changing peacefully at the pace that the chaos of world politics and scientific/technological revolutions would strain it to.
I want to make a comment about Islam. The relentless military activities of the Ottomans was required by Islamic law. "The jurists of classical Islam reached the conclusion that Islam requires relentless military action against non-believing peoples unless a treaty exists with them" (Abdal Hakim Murad, University of Cambridge). The violent expansion of muslims throughout the middle ages is not an aberration; its part of Islamic law.
We were taught that the slogan the church used to sell the indulgences was: "When the money in the box rings, The soul into heaven springs." "Wenn das Geld im Kasten klingt, Die Seele in den Himmel springt."
When you are talking about the puritanical nature of Prodestantism and its effect on the Western world, I think you also need to reflect on its effect on the political left. The present woke movement has aspects of religious puritanism, as does feminism and revolutionary communism. The idea that there is a righteous way and any opponents are heretics.
When President Reagan was negotiating the end othe USSR it's member nation-states said that they would) after 70 years of Socialism. return to being patriotic Christian, modern (not post-modern) nation-states. They have all done so. Poland, Hungary, etc. Russia under Putin built a Cathedral in Moscow, which was opened and dedicated in 2019. In addition Putin pushed for the opening of 30,000 parish churches, throughout Russia. If "the West is serious about defending humanity against Communism then it should be allied with former USSR Nation-states against Communist China. However, Western Leaders appear to be working towards a secular, planned World government brought in under the title Great Reset.and without any democratic explanation to the people to enable them to vote on it.
I am not a practising Christian, like most Scots of my youth, I had a low key Christian upbringing in the Church of Scotland, the reformed church, that I suppose, makes me a Presbyterian, if only culturally in my case. The key religious reformer in Scotland however, was not Luther but John Knox via the French theologian John Calvin. Not a lot of people know that! 🤪
I might be jumping the gun here but as regards indulgences I read that leading up to the events of 1517 there had been a hard sell on the part of the Church. They needed the readies to pay for the building of St Peter's Basilica.
A lot of people had problems with the church. Others had put out English and German translations of the Bible to make it more accessible. The Church selling indulgences did irk him to no small degree, and he did nail those theses. He was lucky in one way that the writings spread far and wide due to the printing press. Many more people took up the ideas, and it became quite impossible to put it out. Its worth remembering that most of the top leadership of the church was made up of the sons of nobles. They were trying to extract whatever value they could from the people for their own coffers. Pope Leo X was born a Medici and made a priest at age 40 and the Pope the very next day. He wanted to enjoy the papacy. Had someone else been elected things would have gone slightly differently, but the whole system needed reform quite badly.
You asked if they really believed in transubstantiation? They did we still do....... Read John 6.... Going back Justin Martyr had to explain to the Roman emperor that Christians are not cannibals. The emperor had obviously been given a garbled version of transubstantiation.
Even in the middle ages, one could not buy an indulgence for themself. You could only buy one for a deceased relative, or someone who wished to pray for
This podcast is a tier above the rest, but I think it’s an interesting dynamic. Both are master historians with similar humor, but they sort of check each other and constantly bounce their perspectives off of each other. It’s amazing.
I'm slowly becoming addicted to these podcasts.
Yes, learning history by listening to conversation and banter.
I became instantly addicted, just a couple of minutes of very good conversation
Same!
Not only do Dominic and Tom do excellent research but they seem to genuinely enjoy themselves and each other's company.
Why slowly?
I had a history teacher called Mr Edwards back in high school who the passion in these podcasts remind me of so much and that set me up for success at a level and in the history modules of my degree. It’s such a joy.
I was born in 1949 in the middle of the United States into a cultural (Polish/Slavic) Roman Catholic family. Amazingly, my life and my family's life resemble Medieval Europe at the time of Luther, despite Protestant America and Modernity.
Luther's most direct nemesis, Erasmus, was the humanist [man of great education] and intellectual assassin hired by the then Pope to bring an [academic] end to Martin Luther. In his response to Erasmus, Luther wrote:
"Now, my good Erasmus, I entreat you for Christ's sake to keep your promise at last. You promised that you would yield to him who taught better than yourself. Lay aside respect of persons! I acknowledge that you are a great man, adorned with many of God's noblest gifts--wit, learning and an almost miraculous eloquence, to say nothing of the rest; whereas I have and am nothing, save that I would glory in being a Christian.
"Moreover, I give you hearty praise and commendation on this further account--that you alone, in contrast with all others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with those extraneous issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like--trifles, rather than issues--in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood (though without success); you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot." Bondage of the Will
How tragic that so many historians are unaware of the "vital spot" upon which the Reformation emerged.
S ad3 in 9949 m😮was a little better 43:14 43:15 43:16 43:16 a2j 45:23 45:25 45:28 45:29 45:29 45:31 45:36 45:40 45:42 45:49 45:53 45:57 45:59 46:04 46:10 46:15 46:16 46:17 46:25 46:28 oooooooooooooooooooo😮oooo9ooooooooooo
I love that "bondage of the will". I have long seen religions in general as a way of fettering our spirits.
I can listen to Tom for hours, great speaker.
I get excited seeing another Rest is History series beginning!
As a German Lutheran from a region still dominated by Lutheranism, I can confirm he still has a very important status, I don't believe there has been any other person about whom I have learned more in school.
"There is another." If you've been educated in a state-funded school in Germany you have heard about him and his former party a lot.
But other than that. Yeah, probably.
How about Pythagoras? ;D
@@milztempelrowski9281 you would think that but for me they actually covered Luther at least thrice in 2 different subjects, where as the Austrian painter was extensively covered but only really once.
Curious question, what region would that be?
@@adrianseanheidmann4559 Lower Saxony
I am orthodox Christian,greek so for me of great interest if from different perspective.
Wonderful to hear someone who is prepared to take another point of view on board, knowledge is power 😊
48:40: minor correction: Konstanz is not in Switzerland (and never was). It is in modern day Germany and in the Middle Ages was a Free Imperial City.
Have been listening to these podcasts for months. Finally broke down and subscribed. But was frustrated in finding topics of particular interest in the early days. But, at last I discovered so many of those are on TH-cam! It helps comprehension to see the lads, but now I’m finding it difficult to return to Tom’s epic erudite book Dominion. I’m having such fun reviewing favorite episodes and finding older ones so easily available that I’m finding it difficult to do much else. I’ve been a Tom Holland fan for years, and the repartee between he and Dominic makes history so much more engaging and fascinating. I’ve always found it so and these two are still a revelation. Tom’s journey from classics to crediting Christianity has been similar to my own. But he has illuminated the history of Christianity in a way that made it fresh and so much more interesting than I’ve ever found it before.
OMG, I think I am Luther reborn! I am born of coal mining stock in the Mansfield area. I have worked for a copper smelting company for 25 years. I have lived in Yorkshire and I am always at odds with my employer. Issues with Turks and I even had a fight in a pub once or twice. It is only the thought of being likened to Neil Warnock that undermines my theory.
Seriously, your history presentations on many subjects are absolutely superb and help me rest my mind throughout the chaos of life. Thank you.
The final test is to see if you hate jews and if you think disabled people don't have a soul. Because that's also who Luther was. A crazy pos.
really? Are you also a foaming at the mouth anti Semite? Because Martin Luther was.
I hope you're not, Luther is the prince of heretics.
No, they really aren't superb. Pretty lazy actually. th-cam.com/video/jgftkUMJztY/w-d-xo.html&si=-OS7WIOHspo3GPnS&fbclid=IwY2xjawFWNxxleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHc18NHpYfX4nRzayPEGOUIjGOnQFYFmRR8HStuW7o_3GBjJCFLEzd_GuGA_aem_DMUCh2RVuRJQIqJ8Ex08Tw
@@marcokite And you're the prince of blockheads.
Excellent and thought provoking .
Loved the insight that the Reformation changed our relationship to belief itself .
Marvellous as always.
😊
I am genuinely addicted to this podcast
This has become my favorite podcast.
I have 2 week's holiday in front of me, so I will definately be watching these podcasts / series. Thank you very much!
A super episode - thank you!
Luther didn't like fun? Didn't he drink beer, play the lute, smuggle a dozen nuns out of a convent in barrels, marry a nun, have 6 children, and compose hyms based on beer hall tunes? Not entirely without fun, I'm thinking.
I’d say Martin Luther is the 3rd or 4th most influential person in the entire world, it’s almost unfathomable how much he changed the world
He got a load of help from vested interests before he wrote his thesis and after. It is hardly ever spoke of but I have come across one to two historians who do. The whole thing was strategically planned and not by Martin alone.
Not really. Mention his name in Latin America and few people will know how he is.
@@MSuyaythat says more of American ignorance than about the man himself. Americans live in a country brought about through European ideas, one of which very much being the broad sweep of Protestant thought, tradition and philosophy. Americans not know this doesn’t make it not true, it makes them ignorant
@@MSuyaythis is true but only for ignorance. The Catholic church has been changed drastically because of Luther, even if the Catholics do not recognize or admit this is the case.
I'd say he's definitely in the top 10.
For one thing, the Vatican had become way too corrupt for its own good. It needed to be reformed.
More importantly, capitalism has a lot to borrow from Luther.
I'd add that the cost in human misery that Luther's ideas caused is quite significant.
You guys are amazingly interesting and insightful. Your relationship is delightful. Funny and good natured.
These gentlemen are delightful
Came here from the Lord Byron set of episodes, loving these! Great to hear history not being looked upon just from our modern viewpoint.
These guys don't know what they are talking about.
Excellent discussion.
I really enjoyed how a podcast about Martin Luther managed to include a mention of Neil Warnock and worm eater Sean Dyche. And the personal description of Charles V reminded me of Gareth Southgate (save the linguistic abilities).
Highly interesting , highly intelligent and absolutely moreish.
The Luther Trail in Germany is a great way to visit Germany. The 500th was an amazing time to go …Luther was everywhere!! Tea towels, advertising sunglasses 😎, pop art. Amazing museum presentations.
And empty churches...
Absolutely fascinating account. I'm learning so much.
The problem with Purgatory, apart from its absence from Scripture, is that is assumes that the sacrifice of Christ was insufficient as a propitiation for our sins. An abominable heresy.
So it was a very profitable business model of works salvation that sadly led millions astray.
Thank God for Martin Luther.
Thank God there's no God.
Actually purgatory assumes that you are not just a body
@droppeddogs that is the final judgement. Purgatory is the belief that people can work off the guilt before judgement. That's why indulgences were such an abominable practice, to suggest that paying them could buy the guilt of sin of the dead.
Scripture also says that man is appointed to die once and then be judged.
Unless we are clothed in the imputed righteousness of Christ, we will be judged by our own works and are doomed.
The sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient, and all those who believe by faith (which itself is a gift of God, so that none may boast) will not perish but have eternal life, because on the day of judgement we will be found sinless because we are clothed in the righteousness of Christ. His blood washes us clean. Nothing we do will ever save us. There is only one name by which man may be saved - Christ Jesus.
@droppeddogs you didn't read my post. I never said we would be judged twice.
We will be judged once according to our works.
On our own, we are guilty. In Christ alone are we to be found innocent.
I have no problem with orthodox, it is RC and its ideas of purgatory that is without scriptural support.
@@joejohnson6327 God bless you.
Again a great podcast - painting a vivid background and context of Luther's early life. Few glitches don't take much away from that, such as the university Luther attended. Luther studied in Erfurt, not Eisenach and the oldest university in Germany is Heidelberg founded 1386.
I love this podcast. Thanks.
As some one raised as a Roman Catholic, it's rather comical hearing you explain the difference between hell and purgatory without ever mentioning the difference between mortal sins and venial sins. Love the podcast!
Well educate us please good sir.
@@jackiechan8840 Well, as I recall, a venial sin is for offenses like fighting, swearing, cheating, lying, disobeying your parents, etc.; while a mortal sin is for a serious offense of the commandments like murder or blasphemy; and, of course, anything having to do with sexual arousal outside marriage - by thought or action. The last one could be really tough on a teen age boy with exploding hormones!! All sins could be erased through confession and penance. If you died with venial sins on your soul, you spent time in purgatory; but, if you died with a mortal sin, you went to hell for all eternity.
@@fredlarke3806 Thanks!
Thank God I'm an atheist.😅
@@jackiechan8840 yes, my Catholic upbringing taught me a lot of good things, like being kind to others, but it also scared the hell out of me!
@@jackiechan8840why are you thanking God then?
The primary drawing line between what was "heresy" and what could remain within the Church came down not to theology or doctrine, but rather how much of a threat was the doctrine or theology to the flow of coin moving from the field to Rome.
Would you say that Arius and Pelagius and Hus and Calvin and Wycliffe all the rest of the heretics were simply cutting into Rome’s bottom line? I don’t deny for a second that the Pope was powerful and exerted immense control for well over 1500 years but I think it’s laughable to think that fight against heresies didn’t have a theological basis first and foremost
One of my sisters moved to Leicester years ago and found that her Hindu and Moslem neighbours had similar things to say as many Christians of all sects, Cof E etc included as you hint at re Catholics.
All those Buddhist temples dont get built for free either. And what of the pyramids, the huge tombs of Chinese emperors?
The very wealthy tried to take it all with them
Our current extremely wealthy tie it up in family trusts.
Plus ça change.....
about a century later the borders were consolidated. The astonishing thing is that all former Roman regions in the end stayed catholic and all the others became Protestant, spreading even into Skandinavia. The border line is more or less were the limes has been. Cologne catholic, the Rhineland catholic, Lower Saxony protestant, the core of Bavaria catholic, Frankonia protestant, Austria catholic, the West of Hungary catholic, the East of Hungary protestant, Belgium catholic, the Netherlands protestant, and so on. So all theology aside, there is some deeper cultural layer to the whole issue. It was not so much about which argument was right or wrong, but how it resonated with the people and their cultural background.
All the vicious propaganda against "Roma" (he meant the pope, but he wrote Rome) didn't resonate with people who thought: "Rome? Aren't we the Romans?".
Today there exists the term "phantom borders" in social science and human geography. And this is an example of such a phantom border popping up a thousand years after its existance.
@ the Roman legions never reached staunchly Catholic Poland
@@rafalrocks that's true, Poland is a special case. But they needed allies against the Ottomans and no support would come from the Protestant side, while the Pope was sending money to pay for mercenaries and arranged alliances with the Habsburgs, Venice and Spain.
In the bilingual regions the confession also had a national component. If the Poles in Silisia and other places would have also become Protestant, like the local Germans, they would have sat in one church together and than they would have probably gotten assimilated to become German as well. That's how being Catholic became part of the national identity of the Poles, like for the Irish in Ireland.
Excellent podcast, intelligent history with humour and honesty!
People can be made to believe almost anything unfortunately. Realising that beliefs are not always true, is part of becoming a fully functioning adult.
The fact that people seemed to gravitate to him so quickly suggests to me that if Luther didn't come forward to rebel against the Catholic establishment, someone else would have
Propaganda was spread by those who owned the printing press (the media) and the money and those who would quickly gain from the looting and destruction of the social fabric. There was a counter-revolution by the ordinary people rarely spoken of.
26:03 Tom, you probably know of it already, but the Relics of the Martyrs of Otranto is a fascinating place to visit
9:17 Can't help but notice how eerily these paradoxes mirror the post-revolution left-right/Jacobin-Girondin dialectic in tension to this day.
History rhymes as they say
Yes becuase all outer life is a reflection of the inner fundamentals
Bit of an anorak fact here about Eisenach. Apart from Johann Sebastian Bach being born there, it was the home of Wartburg cars which were built there until Opel acquired the factory post unification. I know, not quite in the Luther/reformation league but appeals to the nerd in me.
I drove a Wartburg in Poland in the early ‘90s. Essentially a very very heavy lawnmower with seats
Hopefully you guys can cover more of Jan Hus and Hussite war. Love the show!!
Nothing wrong with our Sir Les 😁
Now that you guys mention it, an episode on Barry Humphries would be super…
I saw Albert Finney in Osborne's Luther. I wish it had been filmed!
Off-subject, apologies....Finney in Luther 1961, P O'Toole in Brecht's Baal 1963, Leonard Rossiter in Brecht's Arturo Ui 1967 (?)
This is longer than same episode on spotify innit? Am i losing something if i listen on spotify? DId i use "innit" right in a sentence?
I hope we get into why Lutheranism continued where other movements failed. Like the Hussites, Cathars, Arians, etc.
Battlefields, and the human spirit for independence.
The printing-press was the game changing weapon in the struggle with the pope.
In the case of Hussites, for instance, it could be easily argued that they were in fact proto-Reformers. Hus was a follower of Wycliffe and the Lollards in England who preceded Luther by quite some time but had many of the same objections and rejected several of the sacraments, believed in consubstantiation, etc. Hus was an early Reformer, much like Luther; a pre-Luther if you will. From a Catholic perspective, ALL Protestants are simply heretics, not substantively different from Arius or Pelagius
@@hansulrichboning8551I agree. Everyone could now become his own pope. Jury is out on whether that’s a good thing
27:55 small correction, it's the oldest university in modern Germany, at this point in time the two oldest universities in the HRE were Vienna and Prague, which at this point in time both were very much German cities.
"Mass-ive deal!" --Hahaha, top-tier pun right there! 😂 🥁
The balding fellow on the right apparently thinks that east of Germany there was no Europe anymore. He says the Catholic church "business" was developed and practiced in Germany more than anywhere else in Europe and he mentions France and Spain etc., but he doesn't mention Poland, which at that time was a powerful state and very Catholic too.
Some very astute observations gentlemen, and quite enjoyable.
The Catholic Church has regrettably jettisoned the notion of purgatory these days. Someone once described purgatory as being akin to the film 'Groundhog Day', where you are condemned to live the same day over and over until you shed your ego and start relating from the heart, thus acquiring the perfection of soul needed to enter heaven. I find that comparison oddly satisfying.
Catholics still believe in purgatory
@@JohnSmith-lf4be they might believe in purgatory, but it's no longer part of the Catechism.
@@billyo54 There are many catechisms. It is in the catechism of the Catholic Church.
That just shows that the church has been making it up as they go along since the beginning. Most of the things that the Catholic Church have their followers due, was not established by Jesus or is in the Bible. The rituals and idols and Saints and crossing oneself are all to keep you in the fold.
@@billyo54 maybe someone ripped out CCC 1030-1032 from your copy….here’s a link to an online version www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#III
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2: 8-9
"What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?" James 2:14
@@manchester.misfit6297 indeed - the distinction between works of the law vs works done under grace (which St. Paul mentions as good works or gracious works)
The Lord Jesus Christ, St Paul in his epistles (you have 'quote mined' here), the epistle of St James, Book of Revelation et al ALL make clear we are saved by Faith AND works.
'Saved by Faith alone' is a dangerous heresy invented 500 hundred odd years ago.
Your introduction is catching. however, putting a thesis on a cathedral door was not unusual. The spread of the thesis was remarkable thanks to the printing press and the owners of the printing press, as well as their interest in the matter?. the money to pay for the spread of Martins's writings?
I think you guys could do a great episode on Savonarola… very interesting his takeover of Firenze and the burning of paintings and books and his battles against Alexander vi
I love these
I am searching for a good biography of Martin Luther that captures the man and his place in history warts and all. I appreciate all recommendations. Thanks in advance.
A talking horse...!? 🐴 I can't wait for the Disney ® adaptation of the Reformation and Thirty Years' War!
Try the boardgame Hear I Stand! Great history in the cards and situation.
Well. The comparison with Bill Waggledagger caught my interest.He must be a subject for you guys at some point?
Hmm who really takes the universe for granted? Some of us do due diligence and read/watch the evidence.
As a lapsed Catholic I never believed the bread and wine of the Mass was body and blood. It’s a sentiment and something to celebrate/take seriously/consider deeply.
Not everyone is completely empty inside or uncaring of facts. Far from that.
I think the reformation would have still happened without Luther, stirrings of the reformation existed long before Luther was born but the Catholic Church had been keeping a lid on it, however with the advent of the printing press it could no longer be contained
Just an observation for the editor on this one, It feels as if Tom and Dominic's audio and video aren't quite lined up, there seems to be the odd point where Tom's responses or reactions to what Dominic is saying are delayed and/or they talk over one another briefly.
I didn't know yall had a youtube channel
Christopher Hill said the first settlers had two books, one their bibles the second being the pilgrims progress by bunyon.
36:40 ISlam also has waiting room concept where most of people will be washed
Ever since seeing Terry Jones's Martin Luther (axed scene from Monty Python's Meaning of Life), I can't take him seriously any more... "Honest! I don't look at your girls! I don't even think about them! There! I put them out of my mind! Their arms, their necks... their little legs... and bosoms... I wipe from my mind."
th-cam.com/video/YXzubuENjHk/w-d-xo.htmlsi=R7yyKqrpID4YVKdL
Isn't Martin a good Brooklyn boy in these scenes? It says a lot for Christianity vs Islam that anyone can draw images of Luther and poke fun of him, compared to the way we are forced to walk on eggshells about the unsavoury things Muhammed got up to
@@Mute_Nostril_Agonyof course a reformation can never happen can‘t happen either in Islam.
A town in Texas had a draw Muhammad contest. It was just after the attacks on cartoonist in Paris. If you know Texas it went as planned.
Curious to know who would be in your top ten for most important people in history
Are they in the same room or at 2 different locations
Nice one. Hopefully this reformation series leads into Thirty years war.
I was going to say the same thing. One of the most fascinating and poorly-understood wars from my American perspective!
@@d.c.8828 British and Irish school system don't cover it either. I know England wasn't a major player in the war but still it is one of the biggest conflicts in European history. Deserves some limelight.
@@zeroconnectionThat's actually kind of shocking to me that it is not covered by British and Irish public/primary/secondary school curriculums! Of course I am well aware that the region was preoccupied with their own Reformations/civil wars/wars of conquest/attempts at independence, but it is surprising to me that it isn't at least mentioned as a continental theme of conflict in the era!
Perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised, because the U.S. public school system completely neglects covering the Canadian perspective/repercussions of the War of 1812, or the Latin American and Caribbean wars of independence from Spain, France, Portugal, etc.
I've been a listener for a couple years and a week or two ago, during a Rest is History Club bonus ep, was, I think, the first time they ever even mentioned the Thirty Years War. That's at the top of my wish list, but it would probably require 120 episodes.
The current Muslim year is 1445 and I can't help but think that these descriptions of barbaric beliefs in Europe's Middle Ages could be describing today's primative beliefs in Iran, Saudi Arabia or Syria
The year, the people, and belief system do not matter. All are human, all is barbarity. Splitting hairs about it can be noble though. Our priests and pastors touch children to this day. Law enforcement commits as much senseless and egregious crime as the general public. Paupers exchange time and freedom for imagined and perceived slights against the state. It might be 1445 in the Muslim world, but it's only 2024 in the West. We've a long, long way to go before we cease to be apex predators and our own favorite prey, no matter the nation or religion.
@@subcitizen2012 the quickest and easiest way to understand any religious and/or ideological philosophy, is to go to ‘the book and the man’. Islam has a very different book, and man, to that of Christianity.
The latter has more in common with Liberalism. Probably, in no small part, due to the presence of Christianity in the hearts and minds of the Nations that developed it. Especially the people who wrote the books that formed the basis for what we know as Liberalism, today. However, that very same Liberalism, and all it’s strains, offshoots and manifestations, like Liberal Democracy, are anathema to the former, which bears more resemblance to fascist ideology, to my mind, after somewhat in depth study, but far from complete.
Atheist here. So i am quite neutral about most faith based arguments.
For one, when there's a war there's someone paying for it. Regions like Iraq or Syria have terrible things going on because really rich, powerful dudes decided it was worth killing for.
Now, as far as a comparison goes, I've read a demographic theory, and like all demographic theories it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Whenever a population has too many young men and not enough jobs, you'll end up seeing conflict. As long as you keep them engaged and employed, things won't turn too violent.
I enjoy your videos especially Twentieth century politics, as they still feel relevant today... how about the "decline" of Christianity and the growth of humanism in the west..cheers
These guys keep mentioning the "elect". The concept of the elect is entirely a Calvinistic one and has nothing to do with Lutheranism. Lutheranism in general is actually a minority of a minority in the world so not a super powerful long-lived phenomenon. Further the churches referred to as "sweeping Brazil" are Pentecostal which is something Luther would have had nothing to do with.
This!
I love his famous "I have a dream speech"
Made me laugh!! Sorry your comment didn't get more appreciation. Where is the American audience?? It can't be just us.
Luther is the ultimate startup founder EVER
He's the ultimate heretic.
Just hoping to go home ,.i feel im almost there , wish me luck 🤞 😅
22:15: minor correction: the patron saint of miners is St.Barbara, not St.Anne
Miner correction?
Correct. In Poland there’s even a holiday celebrating miners called Barbórka, after said Saint
I keep forgetting they're not in the same room when I'm listening on Spotify 😂
Considering he inadvertently caused the 30 years war I'd say he was pretty influential.
Batının aydınlanmasını başlatan diyebiliriz.Kitaplar ve bilinç.!
Let's not forget Savonarola's influence in the 1490s!
martin luther is increble
I still think the Reformation was inevitable. Christianity was too central and pervasive, it would not be capable of changing peacefully at the pace that the chaos of world politics and scientific/technological revolutions would strain it to.
Please go watch Jordan Cooper. It will help alot.
Sorry Tom, the church didn’t collapse. It got strengthened.
Pretty sure Luther is the reason we say holy crap..
I can't imagine a better explanation, such a weird thing to say
I wish you did not need to 'sell' this one with talking horses, etc. It 's such serious stuff. You are starting to talk down to us. RESIST!
I want to make a comment about Islam. The relentless military activities of the Ottomans was required by Islamic law. "The jurists of classical Islam reached the conclusion that Islam requires relentless military action against non-believing peoples unless a treaty exists with them" (Abdal Hakim Murad, University of Cambridge). The violent expansion of muslims throughout the middle ages is not an aberration; its part of Islamic law.
It was used as a justification, yes. However, most of the time the butchery was directed at other muslims.
We were taught that the slogan the church used to sell the indulgences was:
"When the money in the box rings,
The soul into heaven springs."
"Wenn das Geld im Kasten klingt,
Die Seele in den Himmel springt."
The 'Church' NEVER used that 'slogan', it was some corrupt individuals.
"I Have a Dream.""
When you are talking about the puritanical nature of Prodestantism and its effect on the Western world, I think you also need to reflect on its effect on the political left. The present woke movement has aspects of religious puritanism, as does feminism and revolutionary communism. The idea that there is a righteous way and any opponents are heretics.
When President Reagan was negotiating the end othe USSR it's member nation-states said that they would) after 70 years of Socialism. return to being patriotic Christian, modern (not post-modern) nation-states. They have all done so. Poland, Hungary, etc. Russia under Putin built a Cathedral in Moscow, which was opened and dedicated in 2019. In addition Putin pushed for the opening of 30,000 parish churches, throughout Russia. If "the West is serious about defending humanity against Communism then it should be allied with former USSR Nation-states against Communist China. However, Western Leaders appear to be working towards a secular, planned World government brought in under the title Great Reset.and without any democratic explanation to the people to enable them to vote on it.
amazing, we are in year 2024 and some people still think Putin loves christianity! .............. JUST ASTONISHING!
Is Toms singing sinful 🤔😊😊
I am not a practising Christian, like most Scots of my youth, I had a low key Christian upbringing in the Church of Scotland, the reformed church, that I suppose, makes me a Presbyterian, if only culturally in my case. The key religious reformer in Scotland however, was not Luther but John Knox via the French theologian John Calvin. Not a lot of people know that! 🤪
Well Luther, Calvin and nasty Knox were all heretics at the end of the day.
But for Martin Luther we don't put men on the moon.
I might be jumping the gun here but as regards indulgences I read that leading up to the events of 1517 there had been a hard sell on the part of the Church. They needed the readies to pay for the building of St Peter's Basilica.
Money well spent !
Luther was not that keen.
A lot of people had problems with the church.
Others had put out English and German translations of the Bible to make it more accessible.
The Church selling indulgences did irk him to no small degree, and he did nail those theses.
He was lucky in one way that the writings spread far and wide due to the printing press. Many more people took up the ideas, and it became quite impossible to put it out.
Its worth remembering that most of the top leadership of the church was made up of the sons of nobles. They were trying to extract whatever value they could from the people for their own coffers. Pope Leo X was born a Medici and made a priest at age 40 and the Pope the very next day. He wanted to enjoy the papacy. Had someone else been elected things would have gone slightly differently, but the whole system needed reform quite badly.
What are the thoughts that Karl Marx brought in a new Protest-ant reformation?
12:45 Iirc Curtis Yarvin was talking about this in the late-00s/early 10s? Interesting stuff regardless!!
Yarwin is really good at sounding smart while making moronic arguments.
Basically Martin Luther read the book of Romans and realised the truth.
You asked if they really believed in transubstantiation? They did we still do....... Read John 6....
Going back Justin Martyr had to explain to the Roman emperor that Christians are not cannibals. The emperor had obviously been given a garbled version of transubstantiation.
So am I
As Martin Luther famously said: "Anyone got any Blu-Tak?".
Even in the middle ages, one could not buy an indulgence for themself. You could only buy one for a deceased relative, or someone who wished to pray for
Still an extra-biblical loophole and fabrication that puts the church before Christ in mediation. Clever medieval monetization monopoly though.
I don’t believe that is historically accurate in regards to the wealthy.
> a humble monk
> Bold, intellectually arrogant, and a master of spin,
Pick one.
You'll need to figure for yourself that those things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
@@subcitizen2012maybe in opposite land.
Reading any book on the 30 years war is 95% context 3% war 2% Sweden with Swagger lol