3D printed AIRPLANE - Messerschmitt Bf 109 || PART 2 - Which GLUE to choose?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 เม.ย. 2018
- Let's find out which type of glue is most suitable for gluing our 3D printed plane together! The contestants are: CA glue, 2 part epoxy, acetone and UHU.
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Those 3d printing layer closeups... so good!
Great as alway Stefan. I admire the effort you put into your tests. Thank you for sharing
Thanks! I'm doing my best that not only I can satisfy my curiosity and I'm happy that you like it. BTW, is rocket knife still hibernating in the Swedish winter?
I know how much time and effort it takes to make these kinds of tests and documentation, plus doing a well shot video of it.
I'm really impressed that you have the determination to keep doing these kinds of tests even if they get labour intensive, time consuming and sometimes frustrating. I tip my hat to your sir.
Yeah there is still snow on the track. I'm probably going to retire the rocket knife though. Going back to making RC videos and more build stuff :)
Weiter so!
Something tells me I'm one video away from bumbling through this, myself. It just looks so...pretty! Thanks for documenting your process!
Again, many thanks for testing this, you saved me a lot of time
Hahaha! You're getting all these bed adhesion helpers like Magigoo for free from sponsors then playing them off against each other. That's hilarious! You are a legend :D
I struggled with the proper glues for a long time. PETG was probably the most challenging. Finally stumbled upon J-B weld's PlasticWeld. A 6 minute epoxy with two parts you mix together. Works great for PETG, PLA and ABS. It claims to work with most plastics.
A Finn here, the UHU glue is contact glue. It is good as a replacement for double sided tape.. We use it in instrument repair for gluing pads specifically because it is weak glue and allows one to adjust them even after the glue is suppose to be set. It is soft, weak glue that works well in places where you don't want absolutely permanent bond.
My experiences with CA is tat any accelerator will weaken the bond. It sets too fast..
My friend and I built the BF109h we used petg. And joined the parts with a 3d printing pen. It worked the best.
I unfortunately don't have one of these pens. Would have liked to try that as well. Did the seam look good?
You can just use a dremel to friction-weld, that should achieve the same end result...?
They are only $10 on ebay
Thanks! This was excellent, as always! I wonder if pre-heating the parts would make any difference in the final strength. Another test could be using tongue-and-groove instead of the overlap for an interface. It's wouldn't be easy to update the files with TNG but will keep the minimal weight and look vs an overlapping design.
Could you do another video on gluing PETG parts? I've yet to find a method that works great. Thanks!
Have you tried MEK (methyl ethyl ketone)? It is about one of the only solvents that work well on PETG like acetone works on ABS. Ethyl Acetate also works but you need it to be far more pure than MEK. MEK is quite dangerous though, although far easier to get as big tins than ethyl acetate. Both can be found in "acetone free" nail polish. However I have really only found the MEK based nail polish to work well. Coming back to the purity issue.
Otherwise your standard super glue or epoxy is going to be your best option.
using a either MEK or ethyl acetate in light dilutions or vapors can work to give normal glues something extra to bite onto with petg.
From what I've read ,adding moisture to a super glue joint after putting the parts together causes a skin to form on the outside and actually slows down the curing process. And adding it before is going to cure it too early.
annealed pla looks a very good option for parts that are exposed to heat. Also it’s likely that these parts will actually work at higher temperature most of the time and impact resistance is obviously higher.
Good information. I would add...Instead of the suggested medium CA for my planes I use a slow CA. I find that medium CAs, at least here in the US, don't give you enough working time to make sure the parts are aligned properly. Since the surface area of the parts being glued is so small it is very important to get the alignment correct.
Great video and testing thanks... Its interesting up close to see the "grain" the 3D printing produces....which I assume is similar to wood and what we learn to do in RC models building in balsa and plywood etc... especial butt joints which you usually reinforce at critical points with overlapping sheet ply....very interesting to ponder and you must enjoy this as an engineer.... Rgds Laurie
Loved the video Stefan! I am curious how baking soda would effect CA prints. Baking Soda helps the CA catalyze quick and is like cement.
3:50 yes, that would be great, because I don't have good experience with glueing prints
You should give "Tangit TI 24/24" a try - it is used for cold-welding plastics in the industry. i use it for models that i printed in smaller parts and it works very well.
Please, could you make a video about testing overlaping specimens with different type of glues ! This is a very important subject and I don't have any tensile test machine ^^.
Great work as always, thanks for posting. I have had consistent success using Araldite standard (2 part epoxy) with ABS-ABS and ABS-aluminium. Currently looking at options for PETG.
I was surprised that you didn't use jigs to align and clamp parts together while the adhesive cures. I appreciate that would disrupt the flow of model construction (although it is common practice for model making) but it would get a consistent result for the test pieces.
You can do some pretty strong but joints if you can design the end to have small holes that lead to a slightly larger inner hole or chamber. You can then fill the holes and outer but joint surface with epoxy glue and join them together. The result is that when the glue hardens, it will create a hard locking mechanism like pins or dowels which hold to pieces of wood together. I have done this effectively for small repairs. If the part is solid on both ends, you can make small holes with a drill we're both ends meet, but angle the holes slightly. Unlike using straight dowels on a couple pieces of wood which might separate over time, these "epoxy dowels" or "nails" (whatever you want to call it) work stronger in an angle because if there is any possibility of separation, then it is much more difficult because it is not one straight line from one part into the next. Has anyone ever had a wooden chair with round parts that go into holes on another part and these keep coming apart when someone sits on it? Some people use a nail to hold it back in place which never works long-term. I fixed may chairs by using a small drill and making some angled holes where both ends meet and filling them with epoxy. When the epoxy dried, these holes and surrounding surface formed locking mechanism with epoxy spikes which make it impossible to pull out. I still have the chairs 20 years later :)
Hello Stefan. Did you try out friction welding or welding with a 3d Pen using the same material ? The results are amazing concerning the strength of the joint. Cheers from Rostock.
3dlab prints spitfire that came with my Prusa I3 mk2 was the 3rd Item I printed after assembly of the kit. Printed 8 complete planes perfectly....no rocket science needed:-) NEXT!
Great video as always! Keep on spreading "scientific research" for everybody :)
I wonder if you have a tip / an opinion about the TMC2208 stepper driver since your videos about finding a sweet spot between silencing your 3D printer and print quality were quite detailed.
Buy SD2224 from Panucatt instead. They are TMC2208 but you can pick stealthChop2 or spreadCycle using the MS3 pin under the jumper.
There are "rapid" curing 2-part epoxies that take only a few hours to set. For example, Araldite rapid. That would be the first thing that I would have tried.
Hello Stefan!
I had a apprenticeship as machinist (Maschinenschlosser, glaube die Übersetzung ist schlecht) and one of the first thing we learnt was: never use UHU exept of paper :-) .
By the way, this was back in 1996 and i coose to go for school once more in 2014 to become a engineer ((Maschinenbauingenieur)im not shure about translation once more).
So our Prof in physiks every time tolld us: Never use parts made out of plastik!! It alwas have a strange out of zero! A good guy, but way back in time
Have you tried contact "Barge" cement? Except for the fumes... seems to be a really good glue to glue anything to anything? I like how youtube has become a sort of scientific journal for all sorts of things.
thankyou
You should maybe do another test, except add a small inner and/or outter lip by printing a few small flat strips, thereby transforming them from butt joints into a sort of lap joint (believe its called a single cover joint).
or maybe adding a layer of CF or Fiberglass with epoxy over the joints to see if that helps any? Now i'm curious.
Hi Stefan, Where do you have part 3 of this video?
Thanks for the video. What’s the pla you used on 1:30 the transparent blue one? Thanks
i have been working with knives for a number of years. attaching handle material to the metal. my best results were when the material was not cleaned. wiping with anything after sanding caused problems with the glue connection. it wasnt my idea. i have seen the results from others testing. and i did the same test and found the same results.
That's what I wanted to say. After sanding, do NOT clean with anything other than clean air. Using alcohol leaves a one atom layer of molecules, preventing proper adhesion of the glue. It might be that cyanoacrylate isn't too sensitive for this phenomenon, but why take the risk and extra trouble.
I would have liked to see a test of filled acetone as a gluing agent. I have noticed that straight acetone seems to attack the plastic - probably some function of how soluble different length molecule chains are. This removes material, however little, from the joint. By using acetone with a good amount of pre-dissolved plastic, there should be addition of material to the joint rather than removal. Also less attack of the plastic in the area of the glue joint. The downside is that it takes much longer for all of the acetone to evaporate from the joint.
I suspect a dovetail pattern of the matching parts of the joint would offer the strongest joint but would be a bear to get assembled on more complex assemblies. That might be a good test to run for test samples to see what the trade-off is: more dovetails with smaller finger size vs fewer dovetails with larger finger sizes.
In my experience, even the amount of water absorbed from the ambient air can ruin acetone's solvency. I keep my main can tightly stoppered except when transferring small amounts to a work bottle which is for common use. I discard the contents when it shows signs of getting too much water from the air.
Loctite with activator that is like 'superglue' right? Joel also came to the same conclusion a while back. I use it now and its good but you should definitely use goggles to protect the eyes, and have it well ventilated, especially if you glue a lot in one go.
Yes it is really shitty stuff but at least it works well. It is quick and really strong. Any other recommendations?
Could you please test a solution I might have accidentally stumbled across. I was looking for suitable paints to paint pla parts and came across a plastic primer and had a light bulb moment . The primer has etching properties so painted the parts with primer then stuck the parts together. Seemed to be a stronger join. And I thought it could probably make it possible to use glues that normally wouldn't have worked at all. Would you look into it?
Very great test. Thank you.
What concern me is the durability of the glue. I can remember that parts glued with super glue sticks quite instantly and very well, but after some time (monthes probably), the super glue turns like glass and tear itself like dust. I think epoxy may be a better choice if durability is wanted. But it’s just based on personal feeling...
Tú eres español, verdad?
Hello sir. Great video. Maybe you can help me out with my problem. I order some 3d printed wheels for my RC car sla technology pa12 and they broke. What kind of glue i have to use?
I always use revells contacta professional. Really nice to apply because it has a small syringe-like thing. Sadly it takes quite long to cure...
Is this the same one that you also use for the Revell models? Built many of these in my childhood, but I think that's a special type of plastic which is slightly dissolved.
CNC Kitchen Yes exactly that one. I also used it because of a model car and as you probably know it sticks very well. I would like to know how it performs in case you got some of it laying around and some time leftover ;-)
I think Revell model kits are polystyrene and the glue is Butyl Acetate, a solvent. It's used for its low toxicity, it's an approved food additive and naturally occurs in many fruit. You want to be able to hand those kits to a child, right.
I wonder why they don't offer glue-in inserts with the kit. Slightly undersized short pieces that lap join to both pieces.
I guess it's not so easy, since they would interfere with the spars. The parts do have small studs for easy alignment, but still, the gluing part is only butt-joints.
You are rigth, althougth it seems something simple to do, it is difficult to design due to the "peculiar" way that a 3D printed airplane plane should be designed to be printed with only one perimeter. But we have been able to do that with our plane.
What if all parts had a flat on one side, where it touches the bed, and the insert would be partial and also had a flat to mate with that one? Still a butt joint, but at least you' d have lots of area. Unfortunately there's a weight to that, so i can't just call it a good solution either.
We have used this concept that you describe to join the canopy of our next airplane (not unveiled yet), but this part does´t carry any load, the rest of the airplane has overlapping to join the parts. You can check it out. www.eclipson-airplanes.com/
Du solltest unbedingt Ethylacetat bei PLA ausprobieren.
Es löst PLA vollständig auf, und nicht nur an wie mit Aceton.
Zudem ist es am einfachsten zu kleben, einfach beide Seiten kurz tunken.
Hört sich nicht schlecht an und vermutlich einfach zu beschaffen als Chloroform.
Bei Amazon für unter 10€ der Liter
Why you didn't try dichlorethane or dichlormethane as a proper dissolver of PLA?
Unfortunately hard to get a hold of here in Germany.
Holy hell. I didn't know they forbade DCM in 2009 across Europe.
Which doesn't seem all TOO sensible, because at least DCM has much lower toxicity than any of its alternatives.
I use ordinary baking powder as an super glue accelerator. Wonder how that would stack up? It cures immediately.
HI , which filament are you using in this video to print ? seems have nice tranclucency !! danke sehr
That's formfutura Premium PLA.
@@CNCKitchen danke sehr
Do you know why they elected to use butt joints rather than mechanical ones to stop concentrating forceson the joint....eg thay could have used tongue and groove, overlapping...tapered cutouts etc...??? Laurie
Hey! Did you consider the superglue with baking soda method? Thx and thumbs-up!
Nope, tell me more.
Hey! +CNC Kitchen - Yeah, sure... There's a baking soda and superglue (trick) method which produces instant durable bonds.
Google "superglue baking soda automotive" for tips.
Ooooh who and Woooo who! LOL
We say "YOU WHO"
i heat bed to 80, put a layer of hot melt glue on bed...then turn off heat all-together, wait till it hits under 40 then print...with cold bed cura bed set to 0...when you have finished print heat up again to 80 then remove...simple..
a few things:
- of four kinds of PLA I tested only one could be glued with acetone, and only barely - it seems that some PLA's contain some ABS(?), most don't though
- epoxy bonds can be made much stronger if you cure them in high temperature - up to 200°C I believe, even 50°C available with PLA would make a difference
- and most importantly - PLA can be dissolved and glued with Ethyl acetate, could you PLEASE PLEASE try it with your rig?
It would be awesome to know real data about that method!
I guess it depends on the epoxy at which temperature it cures. The ones we usually use cure fine at room temperature, more professional ones need tempering at higher temperatures, so I think this wouldn't have benefited us. BTW: Just ordered a bottle of ethyl acetate ;-)
Can you scale up to make a bigger plane with 3d lab programs?
You shouldn't. The models are designed to be printed at 100% but 3Dlabprint is selling bigger models as well (e.g. VOUGHT F4U CORSAIR).
Hey Stefan,
could you share your cura profile for the airplane so we dont have to make the complete thing on our own .
Danke und LG
Miky
Should be in the description of the built video, otherwise let me know.
CNC Kitchen I cant find it there 🤔
Maybe I need Glasses ...
Gluten Tag Stefan,
Where is the video with the printer profile? I just purchased a model from 3D LabPrint but they don't really support CURA. I've tried using the CURA profile from PlanePrint.com but that profile doesn't quite work for 3dlabprint models. I can get great skins but the internal bracing is printing mostly separated from the outer wall. I'm not sure how to fix it.
I haven't been able to find the 3rd video you mention at the end of this video that shows the slicer settings.
Chloroform with PLA is the equivalent of acetone with ABS
Great video! But the "glueing PLA with acetone" bit has me scratching my head. Of the eight or so PLAs that I've tried it with, not one shows even slightly sticky tendencies. Is it a particular PLA that you've found acetone works with, or a range?
It's the only one I've tried, yet. And there it worked great. Strange, that you didn't have success on any other, since its even possible to slightly smooth PLA with acetone (see Toms video).
Wow! Fast reply, Stefan - thanks! Yes, it is weird. It's making me wonder whether it's my acetone (or maybe "acetone") that's at fault: it's cheap, pound-shop nail varnish remover, and although the label lists the ingredients as "acetone, aqua", maybe this cheap stuff has a critically higher proportion of water that renders it unsuitable. Hmmm... Some experimentation is called for! :))
I haven used any pla that glues or smooths with acetone and always assumed it was an American or European formula as most of the stuff that reaches me is from china.
Hookay, here's a bit of follow-up experimentation that might explain things...
I bought some slightly more expensive nail varnish remover (still from a pound-store, but this was in a smaller bottle with "99% acetone" written on it, so probably a higher acetone content than the previous el cheapo stuff) and cut up 10cm samples of just about all the PLA filaments (and a TPU one... more on that later!) I had around - about 12 of them - and one by one put them in a tiny jar, half submerged in the acetone, for a few hours.
The PLAs were all no-brand, budget ones from ebay (hmmm... pound-shop acetone, budget filament... I'm seeing a Scroogeish pattern...) and all behaved in a similar way:
: the coloured ones were bleached to white, or to a very pale pastel
: all the filaments became more flexible and bendable, although bending them usually resulted in breakage because the filaments were now very fragile. None of them had enough structural integrity to be printed with.
: there was no hint of smoothing or extra glossiness to the filament surfaces :(
: several of the filaments split along their length and opened up slightly, as if there were an inherent weakness on the filament's surface, running along its length. Strange and unexpected...
I also left a small PLA print in acetone vapour for a few hours, and it became soft (but not smooth or shiny) and lost a lot of layer adhesion. Interesting effect, but probably not very useful. Days and days after, it's still in slightly soft pieces.
TPU...
Slightly more interesting - some cheap, black TPU was put in the acetone and left for a couple of hours. Afterwards (days afterwards too, it seems) it was at least 50% stretchier, but with no apparent loss of strength, which is very interesting. The sample I acetonised was only about 10cm, so waaaay too small to try printing with. But I may try acetonising a larger sample and see how it prints! :)
Friction welding.
where is part 3 ?
Weiter so, ich werde versuchen die ME109 mit meinem Tronxy X1 zu drucken.... da kann ich jede Hilfe gebrauchen ;-)
Bekommst du da überhaupt alle Teile gedruckt?
Ich hab die Achsen etwas erweitert. Ich bin noch optimistisch ... der Witz ist halt das das PLA (Polymax) quasi hab so teuer ist wie der ganze Drucker... wenn du willst kann ich dir gerne berichten wie es läuft
Der epoxid Harz muss aber 24 h Aushärten
Die 15 min geben nur dann dass man den 15 min lang verarbeiten kann also Teile mit dem Harz einschmieren bevor er steif wird und dann noch 24h bis es Steinhart wird
Do you use Fusion 360 to ever design anything? Btw not insulting just asking
Oh really??? Acetone works on PLA???? I'll need to try that...
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Great video , UHU Power is one of the best glues for PLA , CA is too brittle for most applications
CA glue=cyanoacrylate?
Interesting, somewhat boring that the oh so mundane super glue did so great but i suppose that is a good thing as that glue is extremely cheap and widely available.
Quite surprising how generally useful that stuff is considering it was developed for battlefield use to close wounds. (in other words, it's specifically designed to stick skin together - amazing how well it does on so many other things. XD)
CA glue sucks at everything. Use a good 2-part plastic epoxy (JB Weld makes an excellent one) or get a 3D pen and "weld" your parts together with more PLA.
Karlssons klister!
Use industrial glue (e.g. Schwanheimer) and you will NEVER use anything else. Yes, it's expensive but it's so much better than any other high glossy advertised super glue. Especially for the blunt connection (german: "Stumpfe Verklebung") you should use the filler (german: Füllstoff) and the connection will be like welded.
Anybody who tried to print THIS Me-109 with LW-Filaments? Would be great to reduce take of weight!
I must have picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.
A CREALITY CR-10, how could you?. );
No affiliate links though :-P Started with it, so can't change now and honestly I really enjoy printing on the glass bed because it makes all the parts so level! Way better than any other printer with auto bed leveling.
I use hot glue...
*the person who sent you the you watching this*
;-;
Then I founds comments like this th-cam.com/video/fZ4kFpi6Ips/w-d-xo.html I think you who has the testing gear really need to do a review on different glues for PET, Nylon, PLA...
How many languages you can speak?(I just Carius!)
2.5