@@Weebfox I've played a shitload of PVP in DkS1 and I have no idea what you are talking about. I know about reverse rolling and moveswapping and a couple more things, but wth are those?
That shit was pretty funny and pretty stupid. Dead simple too, if you had a paddle or a keyboard you could ora ora that shit and demolish even overshielded opponents
Don't lie Brian, it's a well known fact that every competitive fighting game player was born with an arcade stick in hand and has never moved outside the genre.
That thumbnail of a Spartan doing Ken's roundhouse kick is amazing! I love this video. It's an interesting discussion on how unintended exploits can become a big part of a game's importance. And it's also an interesting discussion of how things like cancels don't work with every kind of genre.
I love that SF3/Third Strike was so landmark in competitive gameplay and sprite art/animation that it is almost always the point of reference for parodies like this thumbnail lol
I think it's important to note that preforming rocket jumps is a curve. You get gradually better and your rocket jumps improve. Unlike double shots which are a boolean, you either succeed or you fail. I feel like this is very important to a player's motivation to get better as well as player expression.
That's kind of the nature of movement options. Not exactly making you do directly more damage, they instead open up your creativity and are limited only by how you think of using them
@@Gender_Ascender yeah but what they mean is its possible to do one poorly, meaning your reward scales directly with your ability. With something that either works or doesnt you dont get that incremental increase in reward as you improve.
@@leaffinite2001 It's also possible to get value out of the technique even at lower skill levels. All but the most awkward of rocket jumpers can get up onto the rooftops, and there's value in having the high ground.
That's not really true. You're only considering a single doubleshot in a vaccum. Sure, you can't get half a double shot, but that's entirely ignoring consistency. A good player will be able to doubleshot much more consistently and string them together into quadshots. Not to mention that you also still have to aim while doing your doubleshots. A bad player may be able to doubleshot, but that doesn't mean shit if you just whiff completely.
the joke about "souls-like" is funny but i was expecting it to be roguelike since that's at the point where most people have zero clue what the original game even was
The hard part about that is its hard to define a genre without sounding winded, I mean- First Person Shooter already doesn't exactly roll of the tongue but its nothing compared, say "It's a Sluggish-Hard Combat game with a large world that constantly loops" genre. Soulslike is just way easier
the difference in these two is that souls-like and doom clone are established as copying the specific formula souls likes use that dodgeroll, clunky animations, and the dying thing doom clones play like doom but as far as rogue-like goes that term has become more general outline than formula, or rather rogue-lite because thats actually what the genre became anyway risk of rain 2 is a rogue-lite but it plays absolutely nothing like slay the spire does and neither play anything like dead cells does and none of those play anything like binding of isaac, but theyre all rogue-lites
A substantial amount of the mcc 2 community has it down a science and always use it. I’m kinda with original bungies take, it’s a bug that shouldn’t be used.
@@noobishmacgaming In the past year and a half, I’ve played H2 with some very good players. In my experience, I would say that very few players have double shots down to a consistent level at all. There are some double shot modded controllers out there (those players usually lack game sense so they don’t do well anyways) but by and large, consistent double shotting is extremely rare, even amongst the best players. It’s harder on MCC than OG because of the higher server tick rate, and it really isn’t all that rewarding when considering if you mess up you’re screwed. I would say the amount of players that “have it down to a science” is incredibly small. It’s substantially difficult, situational, and you have to do it while aiming.
@@gopistons4 it’s harder on MCC than OG because of the higher server tick rate. This explains why I'm able to pick up double/ quadshot in maybe 30 minutes on the og version after years of not playing and struggle to hell to get it consistent in the MCC version. Thanks, I thought it wasn't quite the same.
@@craig3536 No problem, man. And yeah, your window to time the RX perfectly is basically cut in half because the server refreshes & gathers inputs twice as fast as OG (60hz instead of 30)
The game has an extremely high skill floor even without the combos. Just coming from 3 to 2 and trying to hit a strafing played is very hard. The hitboxes change very unintuitively and it seems faster than the newer games. And this is even with a "hitscan" br
NGL, this makes it sound like an absolute blast to play. Then again, if my personal favorite shooter, Ultrakill, got a multiplayer vs. mode, its movement mechanics would probably make Melee look like Brawl.
At least with melee all of the advanced tech like shffling, wavedashing, shield dropping, etc are all actually programmed into the game. The mechanics are working as intended, just a lot faster and more reliably than the devs ever thought they would be done. These Halo 2 button combos are definitely unintended buffering glitches.
@@protoposer5625 And yet, it was doable by only those who practiced and tried it a lot. As a "claw" player from back in the day.... BXR and BXB are nto glitches. They are 100% part of what makes H2 a complete and perfect fps game.
@@amatureskater15 They literally are glitches by very definition, they were an unintended exploit caused by an unfixed bug, and Bungie released a public statement saying that, while it created a wild competitive community, it was ultimately a mistake and wouldn't be coming back in Halo 3. If Halo 2 had come out in the age of constant updates, those two exploits and their many counterparts would have been eradicated in the very first balance update. You can't just decide a bug isn't a bug because you like it. That's not how it works.
I appreciate the inclusion of amazing TF2 examples. Most of the tecs came with a drawback unlike these combos. Trimping took charge and rocket jumping took health (not including rocket jumper)
No combos have a disadvantage. Doubleshotting isn’t always a 3 shot so in many cases a pure 4 shot with walls (unless it’s MCC bad reg in that case 6+ shots) will always be faster if you see each other head on. A double shot even in a heavy comfortable flow can be fumbled whether it’s your input or the server reg. Though it can be corrected with a fast YY that has another variable that can be fumbled or done to slow, either way it’s too many inputs compared to R R R R opposed to R R X Y Y R R or whatever mixture. BXR can get you to fumble an easy kill because blank melees no matter the version. Byyr is about the same bxb can be infuriating if you don’t claw as even as fast as you are clawers are always faster
If your wondering why Cortana says it's not natural like that, when Jen Taylor did the voice line she couldn't see the final release tunnel. Originally it appeared as just a rock cave but this was changed before launch. So it would have made sense
Yeah, the Halo 1 script is written using little pieces of older scripts. She even still drops the occasional British slang from before Jen was cast and Cortana was British-accented.
Plus, it’s not the full line. Everyone takes it out of context. “Someone built it, so it must lead somewhere.” Yes, you could argue that might still be a little obvious, but that tunnel exists for a reason and it’s Chief’s job right now to find out where it leads.
@@King0fYou115 Still, that doesn't even make much sense. Norad has an opening into an unnatural cave too but it doesn't lead anywhere but deeper inside.
I think one of the most important things to consider with these kinds of emergent tech is the way these exploits can ripple out into other areas of the game. Quick melee exploits make weapons like the sword and shotgun less useful because what is supposed to be their niche is now something everyone can do at base. Stuff like double shot makes the player less incentivized to hunt down weapons because their starting weapon outclassed them (even more than it does by default with the br being blatantly overpowered in halo 2). Even in the example of rocket jumping, it can add a significant amount of mobility to a game that might not be balanced/designed around such high mobility. While it’s perfectly possible that such a game is still balanced/fun with said mobility. It’s also possible that it isn’t, or that some people might prefer the original version. For an example of this see bunny hopping in counter strike. It’s something that adds a good chunk of depth and skill to the game, which is very appropriate for counter strike’s competitive environment. However the extremely high mobility it granted didn’t fit in with the design of counter strike as a slow tactical shooter. As such it was heavily nerfed in global offensive.
"Quick melee exploits make weapons like the sword and shotgun less useful..." This may seem unintuitive, but this is false imo. In fact, the exploits actually make the sword and shotgun MORE useful than they otherwise would have been. You would think that they would make it worse since they give you a quick close range kill, but the thing to keep in mind is that the shotgun and energy sword will more often than not beat a BXR. Now think about Halo 3. The reason the shotgun in Halo 3 struggles is because more often than not, players will try and back up to BR you. It is very hard to close the gap on people in Halo 3. However, in Halo 2, because melee is so good, it encourages players to approach you and wait around corners. So when you have a shotgun in your back pocket, it's much easier to bait someone into getting close to you. Additionally: "Stuff like the doubleshot makes the player less incentivized to hunt down weapons..." This is sort of true. In br+smg starts this is most definitely true. The player already has everything they need, however, Halo 3 doesn't have button combos and this is already true in that game as well. The BR would have been dominant anyway without button combos. The thing people don't realize is that the BR was never intended to be the starting weapon of Halo. In Halo 2, it was the SMG, and in Halo 3 it was the assault rifle. This is a big reason why most of the sandbox can be so underpowered in BR slayer, because they were never intended to compete with BR starts. However, in MLG BR starts, with no secondary, doubleshotting actually sort of encourages you to pick up a second weapon. Even though you won't use it, it does encourage you to pick up a secondary so that you can YY in case your doubleshot doesn't kill. Of course, this doesn't fix the problem entirely, it's more like a bandaid on an open wound, but it's not doubleshotting to blame for the rest of Halo 2's sandbox being weak. It was already weak.
@@JustinBA007 Absolutely correct, the sword and shotgun in H3 are hardly used because spartans are really weak up close compared to H2. This guy actually played H2 unlike the video's author and like 95% of the commenters.
I feel the rocket jumping analogy is great, intentional well designed high skill ceiling option. This combo system reminds me of L-Canceling for Smash. L-canceling that halves aerial lag should be built in and not be a barrier. There's never a reason you wouldn't want to halve your ending lag aside from execution error. Wave-dashing on the otherhand is the extra skillful expression even though it wasn't intentionally designed to be in the game. WD has various usages and WD lengths.
Yeah, as someone whose been into melee for years now, I still don't like L-cancelling. Believe it or not there are actually uses for not using it though, as it makes edge-cancelling a lot easier, and reduces the risk for air dodging in those scenerios. For the most part though, pretty shit.
@@Gamesforus1 how does l cancelling make edge cancelling easier? those wouldn’t effect one another? also you cant l cancel air dodges so i’m not sure what you mean
@@taiklyzubkalmar3573 edgecancelling and inputting L cancel makes you airdodge so gotta be conscious about it there a better example is hard/soft press of triggers to L cancel to buffer/not buffer techs and the mixups around that
This is probably why there were so many complaints about WDing being removed but way less on L-Cancelling and why Rivals of Aether (a Melee inspired platform fighter) has wavedashing but not L-Cancelling and the landing lag is just inherently low
@@meleehater624 oh okay i understand what they're saying now. but idk if that really would be an issue since you would be hitting the L button before you land on plat not after. if you air dodge then it seems like you screwed up the timing for it anyways
There was a whole community formed around Halo 2's multi-player. I remember playing Lockout and having a designated name for each section of the map to call out enemy locations. And then intercepting the enemy's path because of the map design. Every structure/section of the map has 2-3 obvious entrances and 1 "shortcut" accessible by crouch-jumping. These shortcuts usually ended up in a close quarter situation, so the BXR combo was essential for those scenarios.
The broken melee mechanics actually shine a lot in speedrunning; see butterflying and melee/sword cancelling over enemies for movement. In fact the bxr now has a place in the speedrun although not in the same way as in multiplayer. You can actually use the melee to bring you toward an enemy, cancel it into a shotgun shot, press jump to be off the ground, and since the enemy died you get a nice forward momentum with it.
I invented a button combo to rocket you over the top of people: BXBXBXA (while looking a certain way and falling a certain way). Used it once to dodge a sword on lockout.
Yo I hear your dig at Halo 3 machinima aging poorly and I agree, but damn it was cool that people were making stories in a video game like that. I don't think any game since then has had tools as good as Halo 3 for machinima which is why it died out as a medium, but it was an amazing era of the internet at the time though, so much creativity with people like DigitalPh33r and those guys that made the Matchmaking series. People sincerely trying to tell a story like that nowadays would just get torn down for being 'cringe', and kids nowadays don't seem to care for stortelling like seen in machinima, they just want to make strange memes with punchlines I don't understand 😟
@@JaddyOG as opposed to what? And who gets to decide? The kids growing up watching tik tok? Is that really “poor”? I’d watch machinema before tik tok any day, but I guess I’ve just “aged poorly” 🤣 what a joke.
Machinima didn't die out as a medium, technology just brought the two landscapes (CGI animation and Machinima) fully together. Scripted fictional original media is what took the L. Source Filmmaker is unarguably just what happens when machinima is given full technological control over the landscape. It's still a game engine, it still has all those functions, you can pull in assets from any Source game and with a bit of EULA violating work any other game too. Koikatsu is another one, this time from Japan. It's a video game, but it's also a full 3D posing studio with mod support and tons of animations and custom animation support and all the other good stuff. You can and many people have made full 3D animated content with it. The kicker: most stuff made with either program is of the lewd variety. Machinima is a weird, weird format. Usually that stuff is what starts a format's success, but that only began with evolution due to the limitations and the success began elsewhere. There's other things too that blur the line (many from the same devs as Koikatsu) and that's what most of them are used for too.
the game reminds a lot of melee. I think a good comparison is jump-canceling your grabs and smash attacks to counteract dash end lag. melee also gets a lot of shit from players from the newer smash games for the same reasons halo 2 does. but there's a reason it still pulls the highest viewership even against ultimate.
The similarities between Halo 2 and Smash Melee are so abundant it's crazy. Both are the second games to release in their respected series. Both included "game-breaking" techniques and work arounds that raised the skill ceiling and kept their communities alive and coming back for more. And both series would go on to remove the tech in these games in later iterations to appease to the majority casual audience. Halo 2 is my favorite of the series, and Melee is my favorite smash game. Sure, Infinite looks fun and I love play Smash Ultimate, but I think the extra options provided in these titles gives the games so much more personality and gives the players more ways to express themselves through their game. I completely understand the other side's arguments against both games. But I'm just glad both have been able to live on not in spite of the tech available, but because of it.
The wavedash and L-cancels we're both intentionally in melee. Sakurai himself had a post on some jp forum explaining that they noticed the wavedash during playtests and left it in. The L cancel is a continuation of the z cancel from 64, and also intentionally added.
@@camoking3609 Yea because elegant skill gap makes games WORTH PLAYING. Making casual bullshxt for casual players who are INCAPABLE of giving a fxck about mechanics has always been an asinine idea. Too bad 343 is filled with m0rons who have no idea how to make a truly great halo game.
13:18 I’m starting to hear this entire thing more and more, and I’m glad people are finally beginning to question it. Good video though, very good video. Never played Halo except while over at a friend’s place. But… I’m tempted to pick up the first game just to see about the campaign.
You should 100% pick up MCC off gamepass or buy it. Halo's campaigns, especially coop, are insanely fun still. I'm playing through all the campaigns with 3 different people right now and all are loving it so far.
As an avid player of Halo 2 from release. I use to run team practices to learn these combos with my clan and I am so glad this video exists. It always blows my mind how as the years went on not many people in the gaming community knew about this except for the halo fanbase that played 2 online. You get my sub good sir.
THANK YOU! Finally someone that doesn't think Midship is god tier! It's just too small and has too little cover, I'm always being shot at no matter where I am
0:17 god I hate the term "Smash clone" when there's already a dozen of them and the name "platform fighter" is used by everyone inside any of their communities.
Never got deep enough with the Halo 2 multiplayer to ever know this was a thing, but it seems pretty analogous to the multiplayer experience in Mario Kart DS to me. Some fans still call it the best in the series because snaking was possible, but it also ruined the online for a lot of people who just wanted to play standard Mario Kart. Halo 2 and MKDS were both landmark titles for online play on both their respective platforms and came out only a year apart, almost to the day, funnily enough.
Another issue I think the combos might cause is that as far as I know, the BR is already powerful without them, making the BR even more overpowered when it seems it has the most combo potential.
You're exactly right, and the flamewars on bungie's official forums over the subject were legendary. The Battle Rifle, aimed correctly, is always a four shot kill. BxR makes it a one hit + one shot kill. That's the same as a non-headshot with the sniper. Thing is, you can only do that to an entire slayer team before reloading a sniper, and each shot is spaced out more. A BR can do it to an entire big team battle team before needing to reload, and has a faster rate of fire. As cool as it is in concept, it's a glitch and had no balancing. There was an official way to do this with the BR: the noob combo. Overcharged plasma pistol and a headshot. That required finding a plasma pistol, charging it up, firing it's slow tracking charged round, having it hit, swapping guns, aiming a headshot, and landing it all before they kill you. That is the level of complexity Bungie intended that level of power to have.
Bro this is so good. Without a doubt my favorite glitches in video game history. Mostly because it completely changed the competitive aspect of this game. The last few years of halo 2 saw pros switching to claw just to be able to quadshot while still being able to aim. Completely changed the skill gap. I loved it because it offers that risk vs reward too. Especially in the double/quad shot. I spent hours mastering it and was still not the best. You did forget to mention that throwing a grenade and double reloading starts the reload without the animation giving another huge advantage. Either way. What a great game.
I love videos like this where you talk about unique concepts elsewhere and compare them to other types of games with the same concept. Or just anything in general, I can sit here and listen to you talking about air and I'm up for it. Love your vids.
dont mean to bring this back to fighting games because I love the diversity of this channel. But this is something that I feel could also be applied to universal Option Selects that play such a major role in some Fighting games (Throw PRC OS in Strive, Block/Tech OS in SFV, etc.) very great topic to tackle. and very intriguing even to someone who has no interest in FPS games haha.
The better analogy for unintended emergent gameplay which raises the skill ceiling would be GunZ with Kstyle. Kstyle is pretty much the only reason GunZ became popular.
Part of why I wanted Master Chief in Smash is because I just KNEW Sakurai would figure out a way to incorporate BXR and BXB into his moveset and it would have been sick.
Possibly the most unbiased approach to this topic in history. Landing a perfect BXR is just so satisfying, but I can understand why these would be repulsive to some.
I really, REALLY disagree with the view towards CE's MP. They managed to get the Halo dance while prioritizing accuracy down in their first game which is impressive. The weapon sandbox is also more nuanced than a first glance "lol magnum is so op" would lead you to believe. It also has a massive skill gap. Halo 2 might have been the breakout success but a lot of that is attributed to CE not having xbox live. To say it doesn't have nuance would be very incorrect. Edit: I SUPER DISAGREE WITH THE MAPS POINT. CE has some damn good maps and so does Halo 2. In fact sanctuary is one of the few that I absolutely hate lmao.
I love and respect your work Jarek, but man, the magnum is the end all be all of CE. I just dont know how to put it other than that, nothing other than a power weapon can even begin to contest it.
@@rosymuscovy7967 This is just not true. The BR in Halo 2 is FAR more op in its respective game than the Magnum is in Halo CE. If the Magnum had a DMR skin no one would question it. It's just the utility weapon so you'll use it the most. Same as the BR and DMR. It loses up close to an AR, especially with a double melee which literally instakills. It loses up close to a shotgun. It loses at range to the sniper which is the most op sniper in the entire franchise. The point people often miss with CE is that not only does the magnum kill quickly but EVERY THING kills faster in CE. Throw in grenade tosses to pick up power ups/power weapons, ov jumps, backpack reloads, etc and you have a game with so much more depth than just the magnum. At the end of the day, people just started with Halo 2 and did not play enough CE to actually learn it, thus they don't know any thing about it past magnum good.
@@Jarekthegamingdragon ah, I wasnt thinking in terms of H2 BR vs CE Magnum, I was just thinking about it being OP in the CE sandbox in general. I’d say you definitely right about other weapons in CE being more viable than the other weapons of H2
I played so much Halo 2 back in the day and memorized all the glitches, super jumps, and barriers to break through. Being able to toss the flag and have it bounce from one end of the map to the other looked goofy. The bxr, bxb, sword cancel, sword launch, tank launch, double to quadshot, and more is what made the game. You couldn't go into a tournament without people doing the glitches. Fun times.
Sword flying is definitely not only in single player and can be done with the rocket launcher or sniper rifle very effectively. It's excellent for traveling around a lot of big team Battle maps or stealing high ground. Also don't forget melee canceling with the sword to butterfly up into the sky or onto mountain tops where you shouldn't be.
I think raising the skill ceiling is always good as long as the skill you need to gain is actually fun to do. Rocket jumping is a great example because it's just fucking cool. This mostly sounds frustrating, and not that interesting as a concept (though I haven't actually done it).
BXB and BXR is fun, but double shots etc are pretty last resort type of things. There are a whole lot more combos than what this video shows though. They're pretty novel I guess.
idk button combos have always been pretty fun to me. the arguments and concerns in this video are all valid but ultimately this comes down to opinion. personally I feel that Halo 2's button combos only improved the experience. It's the main reason why people even still play Halo 2.
I think fighting game players see this and reminds them of the button combos in fighting games and the unintentional design mechanics that lead to interesting gameplay but ignore that most fighting games have had years of experience to refine and more importantly balance these mechanics. Bunnyhopping and Rocket jumping is cool but duels in Quake could end up as blowouts. And the less said about SFII's balance the better. I'm sure most dinosaurs love those games but only a few years later you would have successors to those games taking those mechanics but designing the game to account for them. I would like to see a Halo that is intentionally designed around this mechanic but keeps the average ttk the same and doesn't mess with balance of weapons or maps balanced around you being able to sword fly. I do agree that these things give your game a high skill ceiling but so does turning everyone into a pixel and giving them 1hp.
the ultrakill footage was a great example, by far the most iconic nonsense of that game are coins its a simple idea, flip a coin and shoot it to release a homing shot ontop of your normal shot going the angle of the coin, time it right at 2 windows and you get a splitshot but this stupid simple concept goes as far as a technuiqe called " *orbital bombardment* "
6:00 There's actually probably something to that with how sword cancelling worked - you can't reload a sword, but hitting reload while mid-lunge would stop you in your tracks as if you'd just interrupted the animation with something else.
Really cool to see someone make a video about this concept, I think it's really really cool whether it was intended mechanic or not. Halo 2 is my favorite fighting game
i also dont think halo 2 is forgotten, most view it as the best multiplayer and thats pretty fiercely debated with h3. The glitches, modding, and ridiculous online community in 2 had many memories that just flowed into 3 so well.
Halo 2 is a wonderful mess of a game, I loved button combos as a casual for things like butterflying and rocket cancelling and doing crazy stuff to get out of bounds on maps.
it's not that difficult to learn them (but it is to master), and if you mess up there's risk. you also have to aim (head) for the doubleshot and bxr, if you miss you'll get washed by someone pacing a regular 4 shot. they sort of tried to implement this risk vs reward in Reach with the DMR spread but that i feel was more BS than these button combo's. Gears series also achieves this with their active reload system. Wish more fps games would implement a reload system like that, even if the benefit for a perfect timing is just a faster reload and no bonus dmg on the magazine. if you looked at gameplay from the halo 2 pro circuit back in the day, you rarely saw some of the more powerful and risky combos on stage, but what you did see consistently was animation canceling to reload or bxb
Another good video. One thing though, from my experience people have always lauded Halo 2 and 3 equally, and 1 the least. And even then, all 3 games are fairly close. I’ve never heard of halo 2 being talked about less. But that’s anecdotal. Also, do you have any tips on getting back into halo? Every time I hop back on MCC to play one of the halo games, I end up bouncing off. Which is a shame since I used to live for halo.
I like invasion, the reach spartans vs elites gamemode, you should try it if you haven't. My problem was treating halo mcc like every other Contemporary shooter when it definitely isn't, and never truly was. Embrace the more arcade-y aspect and have silly fun with it.
My tip for mcc is to avoid peak primetime hours. Few things make playing more miserable than nearly full sweat stacks of people who’ve been playing daily for years and years on end. Especially when they’re the type that will get two flag / bomb caps and spend the remaining time farming spawnkills for a k/d ratio no sane person cares about. Custom browser is also sometimes fun but doesn’t include 2.
I was a huge fan of Halo for the campaign only, and that is one space where Halo 2 was disappointing to me and a lot of others playing at the time. Playing as Arbiter was kind of cool, but ultimately nowhere near as interesting a twist as seeing a new faction appear in H1. 2 started a lot of the problems that became even more prominent in 3/ODST: less emphasis on fighting multiple factions simultaneously, and brutes replacing elites (with generally less interesting AI and shield behaviour). The earth focus fizzled out early on, and scarabs were realized in a very underwhelming way prior to 3. Enemy AI was noticeably less robust than H1 (it’s not uncommon to see elites get ‘stuck’ in place, seemingly unable to choose an action, a particularly notable flaw when duel-wielding gives the player better damage output). And the anti-climactic ending absolutely sucked, especially in a context where there would be years between episodes. For campaign, 3 was more polished and significantly improved some areas like scarabs (and flood unit diversity, to a degree), but was even worse in lacking multi-faction combat scenarios and originality, and had zero hostile elites. I didn’t feel like a Halo game matched the original in campaign quality and impact until Reach (albeit excelling in somewhat different ways).
The problem with MCC is that half the population are just absolute Halo god's, which was never the case in the glory days, so it's very hard to have a good game unless you are a Halo god
I'm honestly surprised he didn't bring it up in this video, it's a very good example of what glitches/unintended mechanical depth can do to a game (also melee but that's too easy and not a shooter haha)
Gunz is a competitive multiplayer game released before the year 2010 with an insular fanbase and oodles of advanced techniques never intended by the developers, so yeah, it's a Leon Massey game lmao
Another thing about rocket jumping is that it has risk attached so it’s sometimes the wrong answer to a situation, even if executed perfectly. There’s value in tech that frequently gives the player a choice without an obvious right answer, and I’d argue that tech that is entirely about if you can do something rather than whether you should do it is generally detrimental to a game.
I feel like 12:49 is the most important point in this video, and I feel like it applies really broadly in a lot of places. I get frustrated when people talk about glitches / exploits / other kinds of tech in a game and praise them for adding some "emergent gameplay," but overlook the fact that sometimes that tech is actually a dominant strategy that can massively invalidate a lot of other interesting ways of playing the game. It's so much less interesting to win a fight because your fingers are just really good at a certain sequence of inputs than it is to win because you actually out-thought your opponent and chose tools/positions/tactics that made sense for the moment.
This. Honestly, I think that question is what defines a cheap exploit: does it add depth to the game, or just a skill gate? Every game is a branching tree of decisions, and anything that effectively removes decisions from that tree isn't good for the game.
@@jackspade5316 It's like adding a gun to a sword game like the gun is clearly the best weapon but it invalidates anyone who are willing to try a sword
Thank you for making me realize that my love for these combos back in Halo 2 is probably partially the reason why I like the alphabet soup that is anime fighters today.
12:42 This point onwards is a perfect explanation of why wavedashing in Melee is an awesome mechanic and why L-cancelling is maybe the worst mechanic ever conceived in a -fighting game- -children party game- platform fighter.
@@lordmew5 Ah yes, the intricacies of a mandatory additional and specifically timed button press after every aerial-move in a very aerial-move heavy game. Riveting. L-cancelling is an objectively bad mechanic. It's mandatory because it speeds up your character significantly, yet it doesn't increase the deph of the game in any way. It's just a needless skill barrier. Imagine if in Street Fighter you had to press the select button slightly after every punch and kick because the devs decided doing so reduces end-lag. That's how stupid L-cancel is.
@@madnessobserver I think the fact that light shields and upward/downshield DI can make your opponent miss their L-cancel is one way(maybe the only way) L-cancelling adds depth to Melee. This is a really high level technique that only gets used occasionally, but I don't think it's the worst game mechanic even among children platform fighters. Tripping in Brawl, ridiculous buffer windows in Ultimate, others take the cake in my opinion
@@pwnmonkeyisreal What you described isn't L-cancelling adding depth to the game at all, what adds depth to that interaction is light shielding and DI, which are actually good mechanics. The buffer window in Ultimate only feels bad because of the additional 6 frame delay the game/device is programmed with, and even then it's very doable to work with offline, online is a different story though, but Ultimate's online would suck even without input delay. And tripping in Brawl while it's also an awful mechanic, it actually doesn't affect the game as much as L-cancelling from a player control perspective. You *have to* L-cancel every damm aerial, tripping is a rare 1% occurence after a dash that just doesn't happen nowhere near as often as people make it out to be.
@@madnessobserver That interaction with light shielding and shield DI is the combination of L-canceling and shield DI mechanics, so the L-cancel IS adding depth. In other words, if L-canceling didn't exist and everyone just had lower landing lag, there would be no reason to try and mess up your opponent's L-cancel timing. You can't attribute all the depth to the "good" mechanic in that situation. They are both important and that interaction would not exist without either of them. the buffer in Ultimate means you if buffer an input, you are essentially locked out of any other move, even if you want to react to something else. Making players feel like they are not in control of their character is much worse. And just because tripping is rare doesn't mean it isn't objectively awful for competitive play, although I guess it is quite funny as a casual player. You don't HAVE TO l-cancel every aerial, and there are combos for certain characters that still work, like Stomp-->Knee at some percents.
Swords and Shottys will always be one of my favorite mutilplayer matches of all time, loved playing it on old school 4 player splitscreen where you couldn't be a screen peaker, which I'm sure a lot of young kids hav never been called since they only hav grown up with online.
Button combos are just advanced tech and are the reason why we still host tournaments for this game often. And homie if you dont think Midship is good, then I dont know what to tell you.
I'm the biggest Halo 2 stan, and I never liked midship. I just don't find it fun. It's like shipment in cod4, where sometimes its fun, but other times its miserable.
Thought I'd see you here, always nice to see some OG players still around. This vid is OKish, I mean at least the guy actually bothered to learn SOME of the button combos and how they add to gameplay before just discounting them outright. But, he does not really seem to understand much beyond the surface level of H2 gameplay. Like 12:44, that take is complete nonsense, button combos do absolutely change how you can approach a fight. If you have the skill to RBX someone, you can play much more aggressively, and take fights that would otherwise be too risky. In the same way, if someone is running at you without shooting, you know they are going to try and BXR you, and you can change your response by trying to outplay them with something like a crouch BXB or just keeping your distance. Point being, combat button combos are never some kind of crutch that will simply make players better under all circumstances, there are ALWAYS tradeoffs. A good player knows how to manage these tradeoffs, and read situations to determine what should be done. You can see this pretty easily by watching high level gameplay, it isn't just people quading and BXRing all the time. Hell, there are plenty of great players who use combat glitches very rarely because they do not fit with their style of play. The funny thing about takes like OP's, is that the most used and most useful H2 glitches are the "noncombat" glitches like nade reloading and YY/BXing out of a reload, yet he does not mention them at all. These are the glitches that players should always use because they have no downsides, not the combat glitches. I wish vids like this one would be made by people who really knew what they were talking about, or who would at least be willing to go the extra mile and learn the game enough before saying anything. Oh well.
I'm firmly on the side of being against the button combos, which may sound weird because that alphabet soup is my favourite food, but like you said it's a game theory thing about how it's a dominant strategy. You don't have to think about whether you want to do it or not because it's just strictly better than preforming the encounter normally. It's an arbitrary execution barrier, something that I will always argue against in any competitive game. Anytime I ever disagree with the design philosophy of a game or one of its mechanics, you'll probably hear me say something along those lines.
Yeah I feel you. I love seeing players find things like this, it never ceases to amaze me what exploits people find. But the video is right to point out that while these mechanics are a skill check with at least some decision-making, they don't add a lot of strategic value, they mostly just outclass the other strategies. I certainly wouldn't be against incorporating them as intentional mechanics so long as it was balanced properly in the broader context (another commenter pointed out these specific button combos make melee weapons obsolete and render more specialized guns less valuable)
this. it's just "you need to be able to push these buttons, in this specific pattern, every single time, or you lose." it's completely arbitrary. it's one reason I love how modern games recieve support, and patches. instead of breeding this game which is now permanently afflicted with this obssession over a literal defect, you get to play with it for a few weeks, and then it vanishes from existence. "bu- but it increases the ski-" I literally don't care about the fucking skill gap. arbitrary things that increase the skill gap are bad game design, flat out. I can increase the skill gap of halo, by halving the damage output of all guns, doubling player movement speed, and requiring each player to input randomly generated dance dance revolution minigame to reload. it will empirically make more differences between skilled an unskilled players, but just because you could do that, does not mean that you SHOULD do that. there is more to consider when making a game than "muh skill gap.". I can generate an infinite amount of ideas that make halo have a larger skill gap. I could make it so that each player has to stand on their head an wiggle there toes while they play or they instantly die. arbitrary increases to the skill gap are just madness. it's more important to view it from the lens of actual game design, rather than from the lens of "does me being able to do "the thing" provide me an advantage over a player that cannot do "the thing""
See I disagree.. I don't see it as any different from devs implementating headshots for more damage. Headshots are strictly superior to body shots. Whether or not you can pull off said headshots in an engagement is left to the player's skill and abilities.. and the same can be said for executing those button combos. One calls for accuracy with the aim of a thumbstick, the other calls for precision timing of button presses.. both are dominant strategies that kill faster than their alternatives, but both are also skills that can be improved with practice. It's all about risk vs reward, right?
Skill gap and skill ceiling are not the same thing. Pro Halo and Smash players can still crush people without using wavedashing or bxr. Games need to have an execution barrier, even if low, to keep a an action game from becoming a board game. Most of these glitch tech is only noticeable if someone on your same skill level took the time to learn them and that gave them the edge over you, which is a good thing. The bad thing about them is if they arent transparent and evident. "I just blocked this Falco's d-air and he still had frame advantage? How?" And "I was ahead in shots and this dude pulled two shots out of his ass, how?" Are the bad experiences I had with both L-cancelling and Doubleshooting.
Personally I thought the super bouncing glitch was more controversial and divided the community more. People mostly used that glitch to troll and would bounce out of the map and drop the flag over and over in a game with no time limit. Also, unlike button combos, doing the super bounce effectively forced your opponents to also do the same thing. It also gave you an advantage over them. The other team had no choice but to execute the bounce as well as deal with you having a clear line of sight on them the entire time they were doing it. With button combos; the glitch does not guarantee an advantage nor does your opponent have to do the same to have a chance at winning. Generally the button combos were more respected in the community than people remember. I also remember in Halo 3 there was the issue of a clan called "Hiding League Gaming" who would get the lead in a team game then as their name implies would hide in hard to reach or see places on the map for the remainder of the game. That was the most hated thing in the Halo community back then and Bungie even edited the maps to keep them from doing it.
8:35 your points are good, but halo HAS had a big part of its popularity off gaming with your friends. Not to mention there's quite a few really good crowbat videos about the "improvements" of modern graphics. If I want good physics in a game I'm literally better off going back to the early 2000s. Look at the halo 2 and 3 explosions to infinite. Gas tanks vs firecrackers.
you can't compare the halo trilogy with infinite cause game development is different and hard. it's taking a bit longer yea, but i can argue that some of the features you love in halo 2 did need to be patched in after release too, such as fixing split screen problems early on. yeah, it sucks that halo infinite isn't gonna get a nicer coat of paint and physics (and co-op, that one did hurt) til after the release. i can say i'll want games without crunch compared to people getting sick or having the game studio as their second home without seeing their child for months.
The one thing I will always remember is. Halo 2 campaign Legendary All skulls. Hours were spent, Hours were dedicated to this. Poking your head out I watched a hail of needles cover the doorway for 10 seconds.
Leon you have to look at the state of dark souls 3 pvp. There is a lot of debate on these things... Estus cancels, hardswaps , true comboos , bow glitching, reverse rolls. The problem is when you practice something that gives you a better option everytime and there is no reason to not do it.
@@conormckenna7796 i currently don't play any fighting Game but i watch a lot of content about fighting games because dark souls PVP is closer to a fighting Game than any other RPG. Every fighting Game concept applies
The only reason they are so damn hard to pull off is the frame rate OG Halo 2 was I think 30 fps which made button combos, sword flying and super jumps so easy (I remember having such a fun time super jumping and getting a couple BXR’s) With Halo 2 coming to MCC, it became 60 fps which is good…but it made the window to pull off the button combos so damn difficult. I can BXR but I don’t use it as often as I should, or BXB since I always seem to hit it too early and get one melee in. Plus majority of the super jumps got fixed in a way when it became 60 but, some new jumps were found. Innovative video man. I’ve been a fan of Halo 2 for so long and it was my first ever Halo game when my older brother showed me how to play at the age of 5. I will agree that nobody seems to talk about it since people prefer 3 or CE and I can understand that, but to me Halo 2 will forever be the best From Gameplay To Sandbox fun Story Multiplayer madness and hearing the constant trash talk And the fun out of map glitches were just so much fun imho. It holds a nice place in my heart for both casual and comp play
8:27 Hey hoss, you still feeling so cocky about that one knowing Infinite still really has no significant post-launch support? Or even back then considering Infinite literally has the world record for game budget? Game development being "different" isn't an excuse when it's an experienced dev team with an unlimited fucking budget lmao. But ah well, you probably think I'm "entitled" too.
About the cave not being natural, everyone leaves out that she says "so it must lead somewhere" implying the end of the tunnel likely isn't just a dead end, that it has an exit that they should likely go for.
I've never been able to understand "how" to play Halo and there's no good primer out there that I can find no matter how hard I try. What's worse is that all the mainline games seem like you have to have a different approach. Very frustrating. It feels like no matter how much you shoot someone, even if they start shooting 10 minutes after you, you will die first.
@Impaleification That's because the aim assist in Halo isn't just a concession to controller users, it's actually a core mechanic. There are different kinds of assist, in different degrees, effective at different max ranges, for each weapon. The emphasis is on movement, timing, and using the right weapon for each situation-- or creating the right situation for your weapons. PC FPS players are used to making flick shots, Halo is more about making good decisions. It's not a tactical shooter in the genre sense, but it's a shooter that's tactical. Also, it may just be me, but I've found that PC players are most likely to complain about games that prioritize anything besides dexterity, because the mouse provides such an edge in that department that they lean on it like a crutch. When people can't 360 no-scope, the game is much more interesting, because now they have to focus on things like positioning, timing, suppression, and choosing the right weapon. Snipers aren't as dominant. And it's not just FPSes; RTSes are way more fun when APM isn't a barrier to entry and units can wipe their own butts, (as in, decide for themselves to throw grenades.) In an FPS, the best approach is probably a combination of aim sway/bloom to reward the player for stance/timing, and aim assist. To compensate, bullets need to be deadlier and deaths more consequential. Modern PC FPSes feel like I'm just playing tag with a mouse, there's no tension, no fire and maneuver tactics, just tag.
@Impaleification Yeah, it's not subtle. I admire the concept more than the execution. I just wish aim assist weren't automatically a dirty word. It doesn't have to be an afterthought layered onto the game to make it playable with a controller; it can be a core element of the gunplay which represents your character's skill with the weapon, or how easy that weapon is to handle in different situations. Done properly, it makes a shooter more about tactics and timing than twitch reflexes. Some people will never accept it on a conceptual level, because they prefer pure twitch gameplay (which isn't inherently wrong either), but that doesn't make it a design flaw when games go the other direction. Halo's specific implementation of the concept is, if I'm being charitable, an acquired taste. But I give Bungie props for being willing to experiment at all.
i played competitive halo back in the early 2000s, i traveled to events, etc. Halo 1 definitely had ways to cancel animations and do certain actions faster, such as throwing grenades or meleeing. In halo 1 (and halo 3 i think, but by that time i had left the competitive scene) the effects weren't as pronounced as in halo 2, but they were noticeable, and all competitive players knew and used them. so saying it's not a part of halo isn't really true.
yea i mean im fairly young but i hang out in H2, but I know CE has its double melee, quick camo and other things like rockets through the floor on prisoner. As someone who didn't get into competitive halo until late. I think that CE and 2 are my favs because of the depth that is there, Halo 3 just feels bland, boring and slow. Thats not to say H3 doesn't have it own dance, its just not my idea of fun
The relationship between intentional design and emergent tech is one of the most interesting facets of game design, this is a great video.
I had the same reaction to when they removed the glider glitch from Black Ops 4 Black Out. Only thing that made it fun and then they fixed it :(
Made me think of melee roll cancels in Uncharted 3
@@MlSTERSANDMAN ooon oo
I still miss toggle escapes and dead-angles from dark souls 1
If any of yall know what those are, cheers 👍
@@Weebfox I've played a shitload of PVP in DkS1 and I have no idea what you are talking about. I know about reverse rolling and moveswapping and a couple more things, but wth are those?
And the melee spamming glitch in halo infinite makes this looks graceful by comparison
"It’s balanced because of the 4 inch melee lunge range"
It was literally all I did during the tech preview because I knew it was going to get taken out. 🤣
I have rarely been that livid over a button glitch
Oh haha it does. I didn't think of that
That shit was pretty funny and pretty stupid. Dead simple too, if you had a paddle or a keyboard you could ora ora that shit and demolish even overshielded opponents
I've been WAITING for this video for 15 years
Haven't we all, Brian
Don't lie Brian, it's a well known fact that every competitive fighting game player was born with an arcade stick in hand and has never moved outside the genre.
Same. Halo 2 is the best fps.
I just scrolled past one of your vids before seeing this one. LEAVE ME ALONE BRIAN.
i never knew about this tech but I'm glad i do now
That thumbnail of a Spartan doing Ken's roundhouse kick is amazing!
I love this video. It's an interesting discussion on how unintended exploits can become a big part of a game's importance. And it's also an interesting discussion of how things like cancels don't work with every kind of genre.
lmao i want a full shippu animation
I thought it was Capitain Falcon's Down smash
@@quentebarchiveeoutrascoisa8036 nerd pov
I love that SF3/Third Strike was so landmark in competitive gameplay and sprite art/animation that it is almost always the point of reference for parodies like this thumbnail lol
I don't play street fogher so I wouldn't know but it also looks like ky's 6k from strive
I think it's important to note that preforming rocket jumps is a curve. You get gradually better and your rocket jumps improve. Unlike double shots which are a boolean, you either succeed or you fail.
I feel like this is very important to a player's motivation to get better as well as player expression.
That's kind of the nature of movement options. Not exactly making you do directly more damage, they instead open up your creativity and are limited only by how you think of using them
@@Gender_Ascender yeah but what they mean is its possible to do one poorly, meaning your reward scales directly with your ability. With something that either works or doesnt you dont get that incremental increase in reward as you improve.
@@leaffinite2001 It's also possible to get value out of the technique even at lower skill levels. All but the most awkward of rocket jumpers can get up onto the rooftops, and there's value in having the high ground.
@@PsychadelicoDuck yes, that is an example of what i mean
That's not really true. You're only considering a single doubleshot in a vaccum. Sure, you can't get half a double shot, but that's entirely ignoring consistency. A good player will be able to doubleshot much more consistently and string them together into quadshots.
Not to mention that you also still have to aim while doing your doubleshots. A bad player may be able to doubleshot, but that doesn't mean shit if you just whiff completely.
the joke about "souls-like" is funny but i was expecting it to be roguelike since that's at the point where most people have zero clue what the original game even was
The hard part about that is its hard to define a genre without sounding winded, I mean- First Person Shooter already doesn't exactly roll of the tongue but its nothing compared, say "It's a Sluggish-Hard Combat game with a large world that constantly loops" genre. Soulslike is just way easier
Tbf, souls-like explains a game extremely well.
"What's Remnant?"
"It's souls-like with guns."
It just really helps people know what the game is like.
Well rogue. I recommend everyone try it
The OGRES will disagree with your statement on Halo 1s multiplayer
the difference in these two is that souls-like and doom clone are established as copying the specific formula
souls likes use that dodgeroll, clunky animations, and the dying thing
doom clones play like doom
but as far as rogue-like goes that term has become more general outline than formula, or rather rogue-lite because thats actually what the genre became
anyway risk of rain 2 is a rogue-lite but it plays absolutely nothing like slay the spire does and neither play anything like dead cells does and none of those play anything like binding of isaac, but theyre all rogue-lites
Ah, the double/quad shot explains soo much why I struggle so much more in Halo 2 than the rest of MCC
A substantial amount of the mcc 2 community has it down a science and always use it. I’m kinda with original bungies take, it’s a bug that shouldn’t be used.
@@noobishmacgaming In the past year and a half, I’ve played H2 with some very good players. In my experience, I would say that very few players have double shots down to a consistent level at all. There are some double shot modded controllers out there (those players usually lack game sense so they don’t do well anyways) but by and large, consistent double shotting is extremely rare, even amongst the best players. It’s harder on MCC than OG because of the higher server tick rate, and it really isn’t all that rewarding when considering if you mess up you’re screwed. I would say the amount of players that “have it down to a science” is incredibly small. It’s substantially difficult, situational, and you have to do it while aiming.
@@gopistons4 it’s harder on MCC than OG because of the higher server tick rate. This explains why I'm able to pick up double/ quadshot in maybe 30 minutes on the og version after years of not playing and struggle to hell to get it consistent in the MCC version. Thanks, I thought it wasn't quite the same.
@@craig3536 No problem, man. And yeah, your window to time the RX perfectly is basically cut in half because the server refreshes & gathers inputs twice as fast as OG (60hz instead of 30)
The game has an extremely high skill floor even without the combos. Just coming from 3 to 2 and trying to hit a strafing played is very hard. The hitboxes change very unintuitively and it seems faster than the newer games. And this is even with a "hitscan" br
I have been waiting for the new Guilty Gear lore.
@@fahrilian he just did bro ur bouta learn something about gun combos
"or the hemlock for your apex zoomers"
Titanfall players: and I took that personally
GIVE ME TITANFALL 3 COWARDS
That line made me want to kill myself
He did say apex zoomers where as we are titanfall boomers
@@RockedIn I prefer the term, “Titanfall chad” thank you
@@why8298 makes sense. Unfortunately I can't play anymore coz the servers keep timing out and I can't find a single game. I wanna cry.
Ah yes halo 2, its like the melee of shooters but even more crackpot and broken then that implies
NGL, this makes it sound like an absolute blast to play.
Then again, if my personal favorite shooter, Ultrakill, got a multiplayer vs. mode, its movement mechanics would probably make Melee look like Brawl.
I loved H2.
At least with melee all of the advanced tech like shffling, wavedashing, shield dropping, etc are all actually programmed into the game. The mechanics are working as intended, just a lot faster and more reliably than the devs ever thought they would be done. These Halo 2 button combos are definitely unintended buffering glitches.
@@protoposer5625 And yet, it was doable by only those who practiced and tried it a lot. As a "claw" player from back in the day.... BXR and BXB are nto glitches. They are 100% part of what makes H2 a complete and perfect fps game.
@@amatureskater15 They literally are glitches by very definition, they were an unintended exploit caused by an unfixed bug, and Bungie released a public statement saying that, while it created a wild competitive community, it was ultimately a mistake and wouldn't be coming back in Halo 3.
If Halo 2 had come out in the age of constant updates, those two exploits and their many counterparts would have been eradicated in the very first balance update. You can't just decide a bug isn't a bug because you like it. That's not how it works.
I appreciate the inclusion of amazing TF2 examples. Most of the tecs came with a drawback unlike these combos. Trimping took charge and rocket jumping took health (not including rocket jumper)
And even then, Jumper included the drawback of ‘You don’t have a rocket launcher’
No combos have a disadvantage. Doubleshotting isn’t always a 3 shot so in many cases a pure 4 shot with walls (unless it’s MCC bad reg in that case 6+ shots) will always be faster if you see each other head on. A double shot even in a heavy comfortable flow can be fumbled whether it’s your input or the server reg. Though it can be corrected with a fast YY that has another variable that can be fumbled or done to slow, either way it’s too many inputs compared to R R R R opposed to R R X Y Y R R or whatever mixture. BXR can get you to fumble an easy kill because blank melees no matter the version. Byyr is about the same bxb can be infuriating if you don’t claw as even as fast as you are clawers are always faster
"Doom, Quake and... Blood?"
Duke Nukem: Guess two alien genocides wasn't enough
If your wondering why Cortana says it's not natural like that, when Jen Taylor did the voice line she couldn't see the final release tunnel. Originally it appeared as just a rock cave but this was changed before launch. So it would have made sense
Yeah, the Halo 1 script is written using little pieces of older scripts. She even still drops the occasional British slang from before Jen was cast and Cortana was British-accented.
Plus, it’s not the full line. Everyone takes it out of context. “Someone built it, so it must lead somewhere.” Yes, you could argue that might still be a little obvious, but that tunnel exists for a reason and it’s Chief’s job right now to find out where it leads.
@@King0fYou115 Still, that doesn't even make much sense. Norad has an opening into an unnatural cave too but it doesn't lead anywhere but deeper inside.
Never in my life would I see an image of a Spartan doing the Daigo combo.
I think one of the most important things to consider with these kinds of emergent tech is the way these exploits can ripple out into other areas of the game. Quick melee exploits make weapons like the sword and shotgun less useful because what is supposed to be their niche is now something everyone can do at base. Stuff like double shot makes the player less incentivized to hunt down weapons because their starting weapon outclassed them (even more than it does by default with the br being blatantly overpowered in halo 2).
Even in the example of rocket jumping, it can add a significant amount of mobility to a game that might not be balanced/designed around such high mobility. While it’s perfectly possible that such a game is still balanced/fun with said mobility. It’s also possible that it isn’t, or that some people might prefer the original version.
For an example of this see bunny hopping in counter strike. It’s something that adds a good chunk of depth and skill to the game, which is very appropriate for counter strike’s competitive environment. However the extremely high mobility it granted didn’t fit in with the design of counter strike as a slow tactical shooter. As such it was heavily nerfed in global offensive.
"Quick melee exploits make weapons like the sword and shotgun less useful..."
This may seem unintuitive, but this is false imo. In fact, the exploits actually make the sword and shotgun MORE useful than they otherwise would have been. You would think that they would make it worse since they give you a quick close range kill, but the thing to keep in mind is that the shotgun and energy sword will more often than not beat a BXR.
Now think about Halo 3. The reason the shotgun in Halo 3 struggles is because more often than not, players will try and back up to BR you. It is very hard to close the gap on people in Halo 3. However, in Halo 2, because melee is so good, it encourages players to approach you and wait around corners. So when you have a shotgun in your back pocket, it's much easier to bait someone into getting close to you.
Additionally: "Stuff like the doubleshot makes the player less incentivized to hunt down weapons..."
This is sort of true. In br+smg starts this is most definitely true. The player already has everything they need, however, Halo 3 doesn't have button combos and this is already true in that game as well. The BR would have been dominant anyway without button combos. The thing people don't realize is that the BR was never intended to be the starting weapon of Halo. In Halo 2, it was the SMG, and in Halo 3 it was the assault rifle. This is a big reason why most of the sandbox can be so underpowered in BR slayer, because they were never intended to compete with BR starts.
However, in MLG BR starts, with no secondary, doubleshotting actually sort of encourages you to pick up a second weapon. Even though you won't use it, it does encourage you to pick up a secondary so that you can YY in case your doubleshot doesn't kill. Of course, this doesn't fix the problem entirely, it's more like a bandaid on an open wound, but it's not doubleshotting to blame for the rest of Halo 2's sandbox being weak. It was already weak.
halo 2s shotgun is broken with button combos, and actually makes it fire faster if done right
oh and i forgot to mention it allows you to melee even faster than the br
@@JustinBA007 Absolutely correct, the sword and shotgun in H3 are hardly used because spartans are really weak up close compared to H2. This guy actually played H2 unlike the video's author and like 95% of the commenters.
@@neato2765Idk how you can accuse a guy who is literally putting footage of him playing Halo 2 on the screen of not playing Halo 2
I feel the rocket jumping analogy is great, intentional well designed high skill ceiling option. This combo system reminds me of L-Canceling for Smash. L-canceling that halves aerial lag should be built in and not be a barrier. There's never a reason you wouldn't want to halve your ending lag aside from execution error. Wave-dashing on the otherhand is the extra skillful expression even though it wasn't intentionally designed to be in the game. WD has various usages and WD lengths.
Yeah, as someone whose been into melee for years now, I still don't like L-cancelling. Believe it or not there are actually uses for not using it though, as it makes edge-cancelling a lot easier, and reduces the risk for air dodging in those scenerios. For the most part though, pretty shit.
@@Gamesforus1 how does l cancelling make edge cancelling easier? those wouldn’t effect one another? also you cant l cancel air dodges so i’m not sure what you mean
@@taiklyzubkalmar3573 edgecancelling and inputting L cancel makes you airdodge so gotta be conscious about it there a better example is hard/soft press of triggers to L cancel to buffer/not buffer techs and the mixups around that
This is probably why there were so many complaints about WDing being removed but way less on L-Cancelling and why Rivals of Aether (a Melee inspired platform fighter) has wavedashing but not L-Cancelling and the landing lag is just inherently low
@@meleehater624 oh okay i understand what they're saying now. but idk if that really would be an issue since you would be hitting the L button before you land on plat not after. if you air dodge then it seems like you screwed up the timing for it anyways
There was a whole community formed around Halo 2's multi-player.
I remember playing Lockout and having a designated name for each section of the map to call out enemy locations. And then intercepting the enemy's path because of the map design.
Every structure/section of the map has 2-3 obvious entrances and 1 "shortcut" accessible by crouch-jumping.
These shortcuts usually ended up in a close quarter situation, so the BXR combo was essential for those scenarios.
The broken melee mechanics actually shine a lot in speedrunning; see butterflying and melee/sword cancelling over enemies for movement. In fact the bxr now has a place in the speedrun although not in the same way as in multiplayer. You can actually use the melee to bring you toward an enemy, cancel it into a shotgun shot, press jump to be off the ground, and since the enemy died you get a nice forward momentum with it.
I invented a button combo to rocket you over the top of people: BXBXBXA (while looking a certain way and falling a certain way). Used it once to dodge a sword on lockout.
Yo I hear your dig at Halo 3 machinima aging poorly and I agree, but damn it was cool that people were making stories in a video game like that. I don't think any game since then has had tools as good as Halo 3 for machinima which is why it died out as a medium, but it was an amazing era of the internet at the time though, so much creativity with people like DigitalPh33r and those guys that made the Matchmaking series.
People sincerely trying to tell a story like that nowadays would just get torn down for being 'cringe', and kids nowadays don't seem to care for stortelling like seen in machinima, they just want to make strange memes with punchlines I don't understand 😟
They didn't age poorly they just became a different niche.
@@Repetoire aka aging poorly
Fortnite has good machinima making tools tbh
@@JaddyOG as opposed to what? And who gets to decide? The kids growing up watching tik tok? Is that really “poor”? I’d watch machinema before tik tok any day, but I guess I’ve just “aged poorly” 🤣 what a joke.
Machinima didn't die out as a medium, technology just brought the two landscapes (CGI animation and Machinima) fully together. Scripted fictional original media is what took the L. Source Filmmaker is unarguably just what happens when machinima is given full technological control over the landscape. It's still a game engine, it still has all those functions, you can pull in assets from any Source game and with a bit of EULA violating work any other game too. Koikatsu is another one, this time from Japan. It's a video game, but it's also a full 3D posing studio with mod support and tons of animations and custom animation support and all the other good stuff. You can and many people have made full 3D animated content with it. The kicker: most stuff made with either program is of the lewd variety. Machinima is a weird, weird format. Usually that stuff is what starts a format's success, but that only began with evolution due to the limitations and the success began elsewhere. There's other things too that blur the line (many from the same devs as Koikatsu) and that's what most of them are used for too.
Halo has combos???? its always something new with a Leon video. cant wait
I mean hey if I was going to use modern equivalencies, you just Roman canceling your BR shots into another BR shots
To be fair you have to spend a resource to Roman Cancel. BXB, BXR, and Double Shot are free actions.
@@tgr3423 true
RC is an older mechanic than reload cancel
the game reminds a lot of melee. I think a good comparison is jump-canceling your grabs and smash attacks to counteract dash end lag. melee also gets a lot of shit from players from the newer smash games for the same reasons halo 2 does. but there's a reason it still pulls the highest viewership even against ultimate.
so it's missing link taunt cancels.
The similarities between Halo 2 and Smash Melee are so abundant it's crazy. Both are the second games to release in their respected series. Both included "game-breaking" techniques and work arounds that raised the skill ceiling and kept their communities alive and coming back for more. And both series would go on to remove the tech in these games in later iterations to appease to the majority casual audience. Halo 2 is my favorite of the series, and Melee is my favorite smash game. Sure, Infinite looks fun and I love play Smash Ultimate, but I think the extra options provided in these titles gives the games so much more personality and gives the players more ways to express themselves through their game. I completely understand the other side's arguments against both games. But I'm just glad both have been able to live on not in spite of the tech available, but because of it.
they also seem to be the cult following of their respective franchise
The wavedash and L-cancels we're both intentionally in melee. Sakurai himself had a post on some jp forum explaining that they noticed the wavedash during playtests and left it in. The L cancel is a continuation of the z cancel from 64, and also intentionally added.
And both game had a very complicated developement that negatively affected their respective team's physical o mental health.
@@camoking3609 Yea because elegant skill gap makes games WORTH PLAYING.
Making casual bullshxt for casual players who are INCAPABLE of giving a fxck about mechanics has always been an asinine idea. Too bad 343 is filled with m0rons who have no idea how to make a truly great halo game.
13:18 I’m starting to hear this entire thing more and more, and I’m glad people are finally beginning to question it.
Good video though, very good video. Never played Halo except while over at a friend’s place. But… I’m tempted to pick up the first game just to see about the campaign.
You should 100% pick up MCC off gamepass or buy it. Halo's campaigns, especially coop, are insanely fun still. I'm playing through all the campaigns with 3 different people right now and all are loving it so far.
Git gud scrub
@@asju4 no thanks
Seeing a Tenga "adult toy" gave me whiplash beyond belief
As an avid player of Halo 2 from release. I use to run team practices to learn these combos with my clan and I am so glad this video exists. It always blows my mind how as the years went on not many people in the gaming community knew about this except for the halo fanbase that played 2 online. You get my sub good sir.
THANK YOU! Finally someone that doesn't think Midship is god tier!
It's just too small and has too little cover, I'm always being shot at no matter where I am
I really appreciate that he's not a try-hard about this and can appreciate high skill play and game appeal.
0:17 god I hate the term "Smash clone" when there's already a dozen of them and the name "platform fighter" is used by everyone inside any of their communities.
Well, if you get down into it, most fighting games are just street fighter clones-
Smash clone
@@SaiKisaragi which is why the term is dumb i suppose
Never got deep enough with the Halo 2 multiplayer to ever know this was a thing, but it seems pretty analogous to the multiplayer experience in Mario Kart DS to me. Some fans still call it the best in the series because snaking was possible, but it also ruined the online for a lot of people who just wanted to play standard Mario Kart.
Halo 2 and MKDS were both landmark titles for online play on both their respective platforms and came out only a year apart, almost to the day, funnily enough.
The more I learn about halo 2 the more I realise that it's the melee of the series.
0:13 had me worried for a sec
Well, this was the most interested I've been in Doom-clones since Half-Life dropped. Well played, Massey.
Another issue I think the combos might cause is that as far as I know, the BR is already powerful without them, making the BR even more overpowered when it seems it has the most combo potential.
You're exactly right, and the flamewars on bungie's official forums over the subject were legendary. The Battle Rifle, aimed correctly, is always a four shot kill. BxR makes it a one hit + one shot kill. That's the same as a non-headshot with the sniper. Thing is, you can only do that to an entire slayer team before reloading a sniper, and each shot is spaced out more. A BR can do it to an entire big team battle team before needing to reload, and has a faster rate of fire. As cool as it is in concept, it's a glitch and had no balancing. There was an official way to do this with the BR: the noob combo. Overcharged plasma pistol and a headshot. That required finding a plasma pistol, charging it up, firing it's slow tracking charged round, having it hit, swapping guns, aiming a headshot, and landing it all before they kill you. That is the level of complexity Bungie intended that level of power to have.
H2 was my first Halo. I loved it so much.
If I knew this in the day I'd have been even deadlier at close range.
Bro this is so good. Without a doubt my favorite glitches in video game history. Mostly because it completely changed the competitive aspect of this game. The last few years of halo 2 saw pros switching to claw just to be able to quadshot while still being able to aim. Completely changed the skill gap. I loved it because it offers that risk vs reward too. Especially in the double/quad shot. I spent hours mastering it and was still not the best. You did forget to mention that throwing a grenade and double reloading starts the reload without the animation giving another huge advantage. Either way. What a great game.
I love videos like this where you talk about unique concepts elsewhere and compare them to other types of games with the same concept. Or just anything in general, I can sit here and listen to you talking about air and I'm up for it.
Love your vids.
dont mean to bring this back to fighting games because I love the diversity of this channel. But this is something that I feel could also be applied to universal Option Selects that play such a major role in some Fighting games (Throw PRC OS in Strive, Block/Tech OS in SFV, etc.) very great topic to tackle. and very intriguing even to someone who has no interest in FPS games haha.
The better analogy for unintended emergent gameplay which raises the skill ceiling would be GunZ with Kstyle. Kstyle is pretty much the only reason GunZ became popular.
nobody here knows what that is probably, unless they watched mmohuts at the age of 10
Imagine playing a game with futuristic weapons and someone just comes close to you and cancels c.mk into shotgun into melee hit
Edit: oh.
Lmao
Part of why I wanted Master Chief in Smash is because I just KNEW Sakurai would figure out a way to incorporate BXR and BXB into his moveset and it would have been sick.
@@Mekasoundwave nah, that's weird. I would prefer him and doom guy/slayer to go into mortal kombat
@@Mekasoundwave nah
Sadly he'd probably just be a zone with an annoying number of projectiles
@@Qobp Snake echo fighter
Possibly the most unbiased approach to this topic in history. Landing a perfect BXR is just so satisfying, but I can understand why these would be repulsive to some.
I really, REALLY disagree with the view towards CE's MP. They managed to get the Halo dance while prioritizing accuracy down in their first game which is impressive. The weapon sandbox is also more nuanced than a first glance "lol magnum is so op" would lead you to believe. It also has a massive skill gap. Halo 2 might have been the breakout success but a lot of that is attributed to CE not having xbox live. To say it doesn't have nuance would be very incorrect.
Edit: I SUPER DISAGREE WITH THE MAPS POINT. CE has some damn good maps and so does Halo 2. In fact sanctuary is one of the few that I absolutely hate lmao.
Yeah honestly It feels like people overlook CE multiplayer so much like in Mcc with online it’s the one I have the most fun with
I love and respect your work Jarek, but man, the magnum is the end all be all of CE. I just dont know how to put it other than that, nothing other than a power weapon can even begin to contest it.
@@rosymuscovy7967 This is just not true. The BR in Halo 2 is FAR more op in its respective game than the Magnum is in Halo CE. If the Magnum had a DMR skin no one would question it. It's just the utility weapon so you'll use it the most. Same as the BR and DMR. It loses up close to an AR, especially with a double melee which literally instakills. It loses up close to a shotgun. It loses at range to the sniper which is the most op sniper in the entire franchise. The point people often miss with CE is that not only does the magnum kill quickly but EVERY THING kills faster in CE. Throw in grenade tosses to pick up power ups/power weapons, ov jumps, backpack reloads, etc and you have a game with so much more depth than just the magnum. At the end of the day, people just started with Halo 2 and did not play enough CE to actually learn it, thus they don't know any thing about it past magnum good.
@@Jarekthegamingdragon ah, I wasnt thinking in terms of H2 BR vs CE Magnum, I was just thinking about it being OP in the CE sandbox in general. I’d say you definitely right about other weapons in CE being more viable than the other weapons of H2
My biggest issue with ce’s multiplayer is the spawns, but slayer is still good despite that
Steve Via’s wailing guitars still get me pumped up almost 20 years later 🤘🏻
I caught that Core A reference. Goats knowing goats
I played so much Halo 2 back in the day and memorized all the glitches, super jumps, and barriers to break through. Being able to toss the flag and have it bounce from one end of the map to the other looked goofy. The bxr, bxb, sword cancel, sword launch, tank launch, double to quadshot, and more is what made the game. You couldn't go into a tournament without people doing the glitches. Fun times.
Sword flying is definitely not only in single player and can be done with the rocket launcher or sniper rifle very effectively. It's excellent for traveling around a lot of big team Battle maps or stealing high ground.
Also don't forget melee canceling with the sword to butterfly up into the sky or onto mountain tops where you shouldn't be.
Ah man this is gonna be a fun video. I used to love "bxr"-ing in that game
You guys didn’t know Guilty Gear is just a part of the larger expansive Halo lore?
you got it reverse, halo is a part of guilty gear lore
@@TheSaival GG is just future Earth so in theory Halo had existed at some point.
Animation cancels in rocket league have made high level competition unplayable without using the exploit, as one speed flip in overtime ends the game.
I think raising the skill ceiling is always good as long as the skill you need to gain is actually fun to do. Rocket jumping is a great example because it's just fucking cool. This mostly sounds frustrating, and not that interesting as a concept (though I haven't actually done it).
BXB and BXR is fun, but double shots etc are pretty last resort type of things. There are a whole lot more combos than what this video shows though. They're pretty novel I guess.
idk button combos have always been pretty fun to me. the arguments and concerns in this video are all valid but ultimately this comes down to opinion. personally I feel that Halo 2's button combos only improved the experience. It's the main reason why people even still play Halo 2.
Please lose the term skill ceiling from your vocab. The term is skill GAP.
Tic tac toe has skill ceiling. This aint tic tac toe
The button combos are part of what makes 2 so much harder to get into for me compared to the other games, tbh.
I think fighting game players see this and reminds them of the button combos in fighting games and the unintentional design mechanics that lead to interesting gameplay but ignore that most fighting games have had years of experience to refine and more importantly balance these mechanics. Bunnyhopping and Rocket jumping is cool but duels in Quake could end up as blowouts. And the less said about SFII's balance the better. I'm sure most dinosaurs love those games but only a few years later you would have successors to those games taking those mechanics but designing the game to account for them. I would like to see a Halo that is intentionally designed around this mechanic but keeps the average ttk the same and doesn't mess with balance of weapons or maps balanced around you being able to sword fly. I do agree that these things give your game a high skill ceiling but so does turning everyone into a pixel and giving them 1hp.
the ultrakill footage was a great example, by far the most iconic nonsense of that game are coins
its a simple idea, flip a coin and shoot it to release a homing shot ontop of your normal shot going the angle of the coin, time it right at 2 windows and you get a splitshot
but this stupid simple concept goes as far as a technuiqe called " *orbital bombardment* "
6:00 There's actually probably something to that with how sword cancelling worked - you can't reload a sword, but hitting reload while mid-lunge would stop you in your tracks as if you'd just interrupted the animation with something else.
oh, so that's why destiny has a pulse rifle called the BXR!
Really cool to see someone make a video about this concept, I think it's really really cool whether it was intended mechanic or not. Halo 2 is my favorite fighting game
A nice comparison to this is Counter Strike's bhopping. It was so intimidating back in Source and it still is on Global Offensive.
This is why "Halo is a fighting game" was a meme in the FGC
8:27 Not so fickle now that the modes been canceled, is he Leon?
I really like your variety videos, as your able to explain your reasoning in ways I cannot put into words.
i also dont think halo 2 is forgotten, most view it as the best multiplayer and thats pretty fiercely debated with h3. The glitches, modding, and ridiculous online community in 2 had many memories that just flowed into 3 so well.
Halo 2 is a wonderful mess of a game, I loved button combos as a casual for things like butterflying and rocket cancelling and doing crazy stuff to get out of bounds on maps.
it's not that difficult to learn them (but it is to master), and if you mess up there's risk. you also have to aim (head) for the doubleshot and bxr, if you miss you'll get washed by someone pacing a regular 4 shot. they sort of tried to implement this risk vs reward in Reach with the DMR spread but that i feel was more BS than these button combo's. Gears series also achieves this with their active reload system. Wish more fps games would implement a reload system like that, even if the benefit for a perfect timing is just a faster reload and no bonus dmg on the magazine.
if you looked at gameplay from the halo 2 pro circuit back in the day, you rarely saw some of the more powerful and risky combos on stage, but what you did see consistently was animation canceling to reload or bxb
LMAO the part at the start actually had me saying doom. You got me good. Right when I thought i was smart
Another good video. One thing though, from my experience people have always lauded Halo 2 and 3 equally, and 1 the least. And even then, all 3 games are fairly close. I’ve never heard of halo 2 being talked about less. But that’s anecdotal.
Also, do you have any tips on getting back into halo? Every time I hop back on MCC to play one of the halo games, I end up bouncing off. Which is a shame since I used to live for halo.
I like invasion, the reach spartans vs elites gamemode, you should try it if you haven't.
My problem was treating halo mcc like every other Contemporary shooter when it definitely isn't, and never truly was. Embrace the more arcade-y aspect and have silly fun with it.
Always heard Halo 2 had the best multiplayer
My tip for mcc is to avoid peak primetime hours. Few things make playing more miserable than nearly full sweat stacks of people who’ve been playing daily for years and years on end.
Especially when they’re the type that will get two flag / bomb caps and spend the remaining time farming spawnkills for a k/d ratio no sane person cares about.
Custom browser is also sometimes fun but doesn’t include 2.
I was a huge fan of Halo for the campaign only, and that is one space where Halo 2 was disappointing to me and a lot of others playing at the time. Playing as Arbiter was kind of cool, but ultimately nowhere near as interesting a twist as seeing a new faction appear in H1. 2 started a lot of the problems that became even more prominent in 3/ODST: less emphasis on fighting multiple factions simultaneously, and brutes replacing elites (with generally less interesting AI and shield behaviour). The earth focus fizzled out early on, and scarabs were realized in a very underwhelming way prior to 3. Enemy AI was noticeably less robust than H1 (it’s not uncommon to see elites get ‘stuck’ in place, seemingly unable to choose an action, a particularly notable flaw when duel-wielding gives the player better damage output). And the anti-climactic ending absolutely sucked, especially in a context where there would be years between episodes.
For campaign, 3 was more polished and significantly improved some areas like scarabs (and flood unit diversity, to a degree), but was even worse in lacking multi-faction combat scenarios and originality, and had zero hostile elites. I didn’t feel like a Halo game matched the original in campaign quality and impact until Reach (albeit excelling in somewhat different ways).
The problem with MCC is that half the population are just absolute Halo god's, which was never the case in the glory days, so it's very hard to have a good game unless you are a Halo god
Love the way you talk about games. You are a legend, Leon.
Leon have you ever played Gunz the last duel, could make for a very interesting video
I'm honestly surprised he didn't bring it up in this video, it's a very good example of what glitches/unintended mechanical depth can do to a game (also melee but that's too easy and not a shooter haha)
Gunz is a competitive multiplayer game released before the year 2010 with an insular fanbase and oodles of advanced techniques never intended by the developers, so yeah, it's a Leon Massey game lmao
Kjank in general is worth a look. If SD Gundam Capsule Fighter wasn't fucking dead again I'd have suggested it already.
tracing that JoJo drawing took way too much i still appreciate it you work so hard
YES
12:13: making logical sense is way overrated. that's why dashing/double jumping feels so good in like, melee or nasb
Other examples of game names becoming genres: metroidvania, roguelike
Hey, hey. Hey hey hey hey hey.
The Hemlok first belonged to us Titanfall boomers, not the Apex zoomers, thank you VERY FUCKING MUCH.
Another thing about rocket jumping is that it has risk attached so it’s sometimes the wrong answer to a situation, even if executed perfectly.
There’s value in tech that frequently gives the player a choice without an obvious right answer, and I’d argue that tech that is entirely about if you can do something rather than whether you should do it is generally detrimental to a game.
I feel like 12:49 is the most important point in this video, and I feel like it applies really broadly in a lot of places. I get frustrated when people talk about glitches / exploits / other kinds of tech in a game and praise them for adding some "emergent gameplay," but overlook the fact that sometimes that tech is actually a dominant strategy that can massively invalidate a lot of other interesting ways of playing the game. It's so much less interesting to win a fight because your fingers are just really good at a certain sequence of inputs than it is to win because you actually out-thought your opponent and chose tools/positions/tactics that made sense for the moment.
This. Honestly, I think that question is what defines a cheap exploit: does it add depth to the game, or just a skill gate? Every game is a branching tree of decisions, and anything that effectively removes decisions from that tree isn't good for the game.
@@jackspade5316 It's like adding a gun to a sword game like the gun is clearly the best weapon but it invalidates anyone who are willing to try a sword
Thank you for making me realize that my love for these combos back in Halo 2 is probably partially the reason why I like the alphabet soup that is anime fighters today.
12:42 This point onwards is a perfect explanation of why wavedashing in Melee is an awesome mechanic and why L-cancelling is maybe the worst mechanic ever conceived in a -fighting game- -children party game- platform fighter.
Bad take that one can only have if they do not understand the intricacies of melee
@@lordmew5 Ah yes, the intricacies of a mandatory additional and specifically timed button press after every aerial-move in a very aerial-move heavy game. Riveting.
L-cancelling is an objectively bad mechanic. It's mandatory because it speeds up your character significantly, yet it doesn't increase the deph of the game in any way. It's just a needless skill barrier.
Imagine if in Street Fighter you had to press the select button slightly after every punch and kick because the devs decided doing so reduces end-lag. That's how stupid L-cancel is.
@@madnessobserver I think the fact that light shields and upward/downshield DI can make your opponent miss their L-cancel is one way(maybe the only way) L-cancelling adds depth to Melee. This is a really high level technique that only gets used occasionally, but I don't think it's the worst game mechanic even among children platform fighters. Tripping in Brawl, ridiculous buffer windows in Ultimate, others take the cake in my opinion
@@pwnmonkeyisreal What you described isn't L-cancelling adding depth to the game at all, what adds depth to that interaction is light shielding and DI, which are actually good mechanics.
The buffer window in Ultimate only feels bad because of the additional 6 frame delay the game/device is programmed with, and even then it's very doable to work with offline, online is a different story though, but Ultimate's online would suck even without input delay.
And tripping in Brawl while it's also an awful mechanic, it actually doesn't affect the game as much as L-cancelling from a player control perspective. You *have to* L-cancel every damm aerial, tripping is a rare 1% occurence after a dash that just doesn't happen nowhere near as often as people make it out to be.
@@madnessobserver That interaction with light shielding and shield DI is the combination of L-canceling and shield DI mechanics, so the L-cancel IS adding depth. In other words, if L-canceling didn't exist and everyone just had lower landing lag, there would be no reason to try and mess up your opponent's L-cancel timing. You can't attribute all the depth to the "good" mechanic in that situation. They are both important and that interaction would not exist without either of them.
the buffer in Ultimate means you if buffer an input, you are essentially locked out of any other move, even if you want to react to something else. Making players feel like they are not in control of their character is much worse.
And just because tripping is rare doesn't mean it isn't objectively awful for competitive play, although I guess it is quite funny as a casual player.
You don't HAVE TO l-cancel every aerial, and there are combos for certain characters that still work, like Stomp-->Knee at some percents.
I liked his confusion when mentioning Blood. So many people don't know that game unless you were obsessed with Build Engine games of the 90s
Hmmm, Fahkmuram’s Down 4 looks different now
Swords and Shottys will always be one of my favorite mutilplayer matches of all time, loved playing it on old school 4 player splitscreen where you couldn't be a screen peaker, which I'm sure a lot of young kids hav never been called since they only hav grown up with online.
You know, I actually managed to save the tank from the scorpion in legendary for H2. Too bad there were no achievements for it.
"opens jacket like that dude from resi 4" I knew you were gonna reference resi 4 in some way
Button combos are just advanced tech and are the reason why we still host tournaments for this game often. And homie if you dont think Midship is good, then I dont know what to tell you.
I'm the biggest Halo 2 stan, and I never liked midship. I just don't find it fun. It's like shipment in cod4, where sometimes its fun, but other times its miserable.
Thought I'd see you here, always nice to see some OG players still around.
This vid is OKish, I mean at least the guy actually bothered to learn SOME of the button combos and how they add to gameplay before just discounting them outright. But, he does not really seem to understand much beyond the surface level of H2 gameplay. Like 12:44, that take is complete nonsense, button combos do absolutely change how you can approach a fight. If you have the skill to RBX someone, you can play much more aggressively, and take fights that would otherwise be too risky. In the same way, if someone is running at you without shooting, you know they are going to try and BXR you, and you can change your response by trying to outplay them with something like a crouch BXB or just keeping your distance. Point being, combat button combos are never some kind of crutch that will simply make players better under all circumstances, there are ALWAYS tradeoffs. A good player knows how to manage these tradeoffs, and read situations to determine what should be done. You can see this pretty easily by watching high level gameplay, it isn't just people quading and BXRing all the time. Hell, there are plenty of great players who use combat glitches very rarely because they do not fit with their style of play. The funny thing about takes like OP's, is that the most used and most useful H2 glitches are the "noncombat" glitches like nade reloading and YY/BXing out of a reload, yet he does not mention them at all. These are the glitches that players should always use because they have no downsides, not the combat glitches. I wish vids like this one would be made by people who really knew what they were talking about, or who would at least be willing to go the extra mile and learn the game enough before saying anything. Oh well.
just want to throw it out there, I JUST found this channel from this video showing up on my homepage recommended. I'm in love with this channel now.
I'm firmly on the side of being against the button combos, which may sound weird because that alphabet soup is my favourite food, but like you said it's a game theory thing about how it's a dominant strategy. You don't have to think about whether you want to do it or not because it's just strictly better than preforming the encounter normally. It's an arbitrary execution barrier, something that I will always argue against in any competitive game. Anytime I ever disagree with the design philosophy of a game or one of its mechanics, you'll probably hear me say something along those lines.
Yeah I feel you. I love seeing players find things like this, it never ceases to amaze me what exploits people find. But the video is right to point out that while these mechanics are a skill check with at least some decision-making, they don't add a lot of strategic value, they mostly just outclass the other strategies. I certainly wouldn't be against incorporating them as intentional mechanics so long as it was balanced properly in the broader context (another commenter pointed out these specific button combos make melee weapons obsolete and render more specialized guns less valuable)
this. it's just "you need to be able to push these buttons, in this specific pattern, every single time, or you lose." it's completely arbitrary. it's one reason I love how modern games recieve support, and patches. instead of breeding this game which is now permanently afflicted with this obssession over a literal defect, you get to play with it for a few weeks, and then it vanishes from existence. "bu- but it increases the ski-" I literally don't care about the fucking skill gap. arbitrary things that increase the skill gap are bad game design, flat out. I can increase the skill gap of halo, by halving the damage output of all guns, doubling player movement speed, and requiring each player to input randomly generated dance dance revolution minigame to reload. it will empirically make more differences between skilled an unskilled players, but just because you could do that, does not mean that you SHOULD do that. there is more to consider when making a game than "muh skill gap.". I can generate an infinite amount of ideas that make halo have a larger skill gap. I could make it so that each player has to stand on their head an wiggle there toes while they play or they instantly die. arbitrary increases to the skill gap are just madness. it's more important to view it from the lens of actual game design, rather than from the lens of "does me being able to do "the thing" provide me an advantage over a player that cannot do "the thing""
See I disagree.. I don't see it as any different from devs implementating headshots for more damage. Headshots are strictly superior to body shots. Whether or not you can pull off said headshots in an engagement is left to the player's skill and abilities.. and the same can be said for executing those button combos. One calls for accuracy with the aim of a thumbstick, the other calls for precision timing of button presses.. both are dominant strategies that kill faster than their alternatives, but both are also skills that can be improved with practice. It's all about risk vs reward, right?
Skill gap and skill ceiling are not the same thing. Pro Halo and Smash players can still crush people without using wavedashing or bxr.
Games need to have an execution barrier, even if low, to keep a an action game from becoming a board game.
Most of these glitch tech is only noticeable if someone on your same skill level took the time to learn them and that gave them the edge over you, which is a good thing. The bad thing about them is if they arent transparent and evident.
"I just blocked this Falco's d-air and he still had frame advantage? How?" And "I was ahead in shots and this dude pulled two shots out of his ass, how?" Are the bad experiences I had with both L-cancelling and Doubleshooting.
That is literally what every completive game has
I I love how they incorporated the bxr combo in the battle rifle as a weapon mod in Destiny 2
Personally I thought the super bouncing glitch was more controversial and divided the community more.
People mostly used that glitch to troll and would bounce out of the map and drop the flag over and over in a game with no time limit.
Also, unlike button combos, doing the super bounce effectively forced your opponents to also do the same thing. It also gave you an advantage over them. The other team had no choice but to execute the bounce as well as deal with you having a clear line of sight on them the entire time they were doing it.
With button combos; the glitch does not guarantee an advantage nor does your opponent have to do the same to have a chance at winning.
Generally the button combos were more respected in the community than people remember.
I also remember in Halo 3 there was the issue of a clan called "Hiding League Gaming" who would get the lead in a team game then as their name implies would hide in hard to reach or see places on the map for the remainder of the game. That was the most hated thing in the Halo community back then and Bungie even edited the maps to keep them from doing it.
love the little drawings and stuff it adds a nice personal touch
8:35 your points are good, but halo HAS had a big part of its popularity off gaming with your friends.
Not to mention there's quite a few really good crowbat videos about the "improvements" of modern graphics. If I want good physics in a game I'm literally better off going back to the early 2000s. Look at the halo 2 and 3 explosions to infinite. Gas tanks vs firecrackers.
you can't compare the halo trilogy with infinite cause game development is different and hard. it's taking a bit longer yea, but i can argue that some of the features you love in halo 2 did need to be patched in after release too, such as fixing split screen problems early on.
yeah, it sucks that halo infinite isn't gonna get a nicer coat of paint and physics (and co-op, that one did hurt) til after the release. i can say i'll want games without crunch compared to people getting sick or having the game studio as their second home without seeing their child for months.
@@sharpen193 "Is different" how. How are things supposedly harder when technology has only improved.
@@zappodude7591 you're right i changed after a year
The one thing I will always remember is.
Halo 2 campaign Legendary All skulls.
Hours were spent, Hours were dedicated to this. Poking your head out I watched a hail of needles cover the doorway for 10 seconds.
wait a minute, this isnt Guilty Gear.
15:10 this argument can so easily be applied to L canceling in ssbm and it's exactly why i refuse to learn the tech
Leon you have to look at the state of dark souls 3 pvp. There is a lot of debate on these things... Estus cancels, hardswaps , true comboos , bow glitching, reverse rolls.
The problem is when you practice something that gives you a better option everytime and there is no reason to not do it.
I was gonna say the same thing, this video applies to ds3 pvp so much
@@conormckenna7796 i currently don't play any fighting Game but i watch a lot of content about fighting games because dark souls PVP is closer to a fighting Game than any other RPG. Every fighting Game concept applies
@@fludeo1307 it's really true
My first halo was halo 2 so i have an extreme amount of nostalgia for it and its still my favorite of the series
Hell yeah, I'm so down for you talking about more games, man.
Dark Souls References ✅
Halo 2 ✅
Entertaining editing ✅
Good script ✅
Subscribed.
Call me crazy, but BXB, BXR, superjumps, sword cancel, rocket flying... They are all reasons I loved this game so much.
The only reason they are so damn hard to pull off is the frame rate
OG Halo 2 was I think 30 fps which made button combos, sword flying and super jumps so easy (I remember having such a fun time super jumping and getting a couple BXR’s)
With Halo 2 coming to MCC, it became 60 fps which is good…but it made the window to pull off the button combos so damn difficult. I can BXR but I don’t use it as often as I should, or BXB since I always seem to hit it too early and get one melee in. Plus majority of the super jumps got fixed in a way when it became 60 but, some new jumps were found.
Innovative video man. I’ve been a fan of Halo 2 for so long and it was my first ever Halo game when my older brother showed me how to play at the age of 5. I will agree that nobody seems to talk about it since people prefer 3 or CE and I can understand that, but to me Halo 2 will forever be the best
From Gameplay
To Sandbox fun
Story
Multiplayer madness and hearing the constant trash talk
And the fun out of map glitches were just so much fun imho. It holds a nice place in my heart for both casual and comp play
8:27
Hey hoss, you still feeling so cocky about that one knowing Infinite still really has no significant post-launch support? Or even back then considering Infinite literally has the world record for game budget? Game development being "different" isn't an excuse when it's an experienced dev team with an unlimited fucking budget lmao. But ah well, you probably think I'm "entitled" too.
Legitimately can't understand why people do this.
About the cave not being natural, everyone leaves out that she says "so it must lead somewhere" implying the end of the tunnel likely isn't just a dead end, that it has an exit that they should likely go for.
I've never been able to understand "how" to play Halo and there's no good primer out there that I can find no matter how hard I try. What's worse is that all the mainline games seem like you have to have a different approach. Very frustrating. It feels like no matter how much you shoot someone, even if they start shooting 10 minutes after you, you will die first.
@Impaleification That's because the aim assist in Halo isn't just a concession to controller users, it's actually a core mechanic. There are different kinds of assist, in different degrees, effective at different max ranges, for each weapon. The emphasis is on movement, timing, and using the right weapon for each situation-- or creating the right situation for your weapons. PC FPS players are used to making flick shots, Halo is more about making good decisions. It's not a tactical shooter in the genre sense, but it's a shooter that's tactical.
Also, it may just be me, but I've found that PC players are most likely to complain about games that prioritize anything besides dexterity, because the mouse provides such an edge in that department that they lean on it like a crutch. When people can't 360 no-scope, the game is much more interesting, because now they have to focus on things like positioning, timing, suppression, and choosing the right weapon. Snipers aren't as dominant. And it's not just FPSes; RTSes are way more fun when APM isn't a barrier to entry and units can wipe their own butts, (as in, decide for themselves to throw grenades.) In an FPS, the best approach is probably a combination of aim sway/bloom to reward the player for stance/timing, and aim assist. To compensate, bullets need to be deadlier and deaths more consequential. Modern PC FPSes feel like I'm just playing tag with a mouse, there's no tension, no fire and maneuver tactics, just tag.
@Impaleification Yeah, it's not subtle. I admire the concept more than the execution. I just wish aim assist weren't automatically a dirty word. It doesn't have to be an afterthought layered onto the game to make it playable with a controller; it can be a core element of the gunplay which represents your character's skill with the weapon, or how easy that weapon is to handle in different situations. Done properly, it makes a shooter more about tactics and timing than twitch reflexes. Some people will never accept it on a conceptual level, because they prefer pure twitch gameplay (which isn't inherently wrong either), but that doesn't make it a design flaw when games go the other direction. Halo's specific implementation of the concept is, if I'm being charitable, an acquired taste. But I give Bungie props for being willing to experiment at all.
The one kick in that animation and I’m like “shippu jinraikyaku”
i played competitive halo back in the early 2000s, i traveled to events, etc. Halo 1 definitely had ways to cancel animations and do certain actions faster, such as throwing grenades or meleeing. In halo 1 (and halo 3 i think, but by that time i had left the competitive scene) the effects weren't as pronounced as in halo 2, but they were noticeable, and all competitive players knew and used them.
so saying it's not a part of halo isn't really true.
yea i mean im fairly young but i hang out in H2, but I know CE has its double melee, quick camo and other things like rockets through the floor on prisoner. As someone who didn't get into competitive halo until late. I think that CE and 2 are my favs because of the depth that is there, Halo 3 just feels bland, boring and slow. Thats not to say H3 doesn't have it own dance, its just not my idea of fun