The "transport through the shields" thing is easy when you know your own shield modulation. Update (a year later): Don't forget that in Generations, the Klingon Duras sisters used Geordi's visor to spy on the Ent-D. From that they got the shield frequencies, and were able to fire a torpedo that passed right through the shields and damage the ship. So the Ent-E definitely knows its own shield frequencies and can transport through them. P.S.: maybe this was something the Starfleet engineers figured out how to do between the time of the series and the time of the movies. That is, it used to be impossible, but they figured out how to do it.
They'd need constant telemetry from each ship to stat up to date. Fighting the Borg, its prudent to randomize your shield modulation to limit damage from the cube's weapons. So yes with this in mind it is still possible. The Borg may have also intercepted this telemetry data and figured out the Enterprise's shield modulation and transport over.
@@DeepCZero3 yeah erm... the defiant already lost its shields.... so the enterprise only needed to beam through its own shields... and god i hope know the mod of their own shields....
Good point and well said starfleet ship to ship it’s just a case of random shield modulation which is being remodulated in the battle anyway so in has more advantages then just able to withstand Borg or Dominion weapon attacks weapons in being better for the case of the sovereign class we have to remember it’s an updated onwards galaxy class so troop transport was surely considered in and out of battle situations where shields needed to be involved 👍😊😊
The writers and producers haven't been in unison about that topic over the years. Sometimes it's impossible, then they just do it, no questions asked. Maybe there are logical reasons in certain occasions, but imho the matter hasn't been displayed on screen properly.
@anon incognito What i would like to see is the Federation having to team up with all it's enemies against a common threat that none of them can handle alone. Imagine the Tholians calling them for help. You know it has to be bad. :)
“A serious problem in planning against Federation doctrine is that the Federates do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine.”
If you encounter a ship and don't know who it is, fire a shot across their bow. If they return fire with accurate disruptor shots, they're Romulan. If they try to ram you, they're Klingon. If they surrender, they're Cardassian. If they return a few years later with an ungodly more powerful ship, they're Starfleet.
If you think about it, Sisko must have goten specific orders from starfleet to stay out of the fight just like Picard did, the only difference Picard disobeyed his orders, Sisko didnt
@@DarththeHorrible I don't know the exact order of events but the events of this film happen around the start of the Dominion war. Sisco could have been very preoccupied, its hard to imagine why the Defiant was available though. It must have been relatively close though as ds9 is over a week away from earth at warp 9.
@@DrewLSsix My thought is that the defiant was probably undergoing refits/upgrades or was ferrying some people to or from Earth. It was a very important ship and they wanted it in tip top shape before the Dominion War
I LOVE the Battle of Sector 001. The entry of the Cube, seeing that it's almost reached Earth, the ominous music, the non stop swarming by Starfleet which I've always imagined would've been getting ever more desperate, the absolute kicking the Defiant has endured, Worf's last ditch ramming tactic, and that Akira at emerging from the fireball through the screen... Still absolutely God-tier sci-fi battle for me, even with the amount of Plot Armour and holes, I love every second of it. I do think what we see was the Defiant's last volley, dialogue tells us it's been fighting since the first moments and either it's been battered into submission and can no longer power its weapons or the weapons have been destroyed in the last hit from the Borg weapons. The tone and delivery suggested to me that main power and shields being offline is not a recent thing, also suggested by the visual damage. My assumption is that Worf knows the Defiant can be a massive anti-matter explosion and so doesn't hesitate to order them to ram the cube. It fits his character for me and VOY: Year of Hell Pt.2 shows the damage ramming does.
Worf: prepare ramming speed! Random ensign in his head: oh thank god.. “sir another ship is coming in!” I’d like to propose the idea that the reason the enterprise he was initially left out was out of concern for revealing the Federation possessed that level of technology to the Borg hive. Lastly I heard that the Enterprise had a ludicrous speed drive installed on Tuesday.
Ben Wyat: "How did I get here and thank god for the Sovereign class NCC-1701-E, launched stardate 49827.5, to arrive to save my precious butt. Also, I would really like some mini-calzone's right now."
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is. Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though. It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that. This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
@@slevinchannel7589 nope, I don't...you write your sentences like a poorly written AI coded by people that didn't master the English language yet. Lore goes a bit deeper into the analysis, but that is effect of 27 to 21 extra years to digest Star Trek. You cannot blame all of the inconsistencies of Star Trek on DS9, especially as THEY where the people that established long term lore and events into Star Trek from the beginning: They've re-invented the Ferengi, Cardassian (every Cardassian post TNG The Wounded is a DS9 Cardassian!) and sculpted the Klingon culture after what was started with TNG 'The Sin of the Father's'-arc. I find this a very hard assesment of the very same people that did most to build the Star Trek universe.
Another argument about the "no sub-systems" point is that the Borg could have had sub-systems all along. It's just that the technology of Starfleet wasn't able to make heads or tails of the technology involved. Starfleet probably gained a lot of valuable intel on the inner workings of Borg technology when Picard was liberated from the Borg. Also the advancement of technology to defeat the Borg wouldn't have been limited to just weapons and defensive tech, but sensors and countermeasures would have in my mind been just as critical. So maybe they just figured out in the intervening years how a Borg vessel works, what core systems it has and how to find them?
It's also possible that Picard knew subconsciously from his time as Locutus that the area he was targeting was the closest &/or least protected way to get near where the Queen's Chamber was or that there was some vital piece of technology there that Starfleet was unaware of that let the Queen communicate with the hive. Destroying that area could have disrupted the link between the Queen & the rest of the cube just long enough for Starfleet's weapons to be effective.
Maybe if you drill a deep hole into the cube with phasers then fill it with salvo upon salvo of photon and quantum torpedoes, there would be so much planet-nuking explosives bottled up in there that redundant subsystems and internal forcefields don’t matter.
@@jasonsylvander3089 Borg had issues assimilating Undine tech which is similarly biotech, so I'd think Borg would similarly find issues assimilating Vorlons and Shadows.
well, I recall seeing at least one other Defiant-class ship as part of the federation task force at the end of "Call to Arms", so there were clearly more out there, and not necessarily just the Sao Paolo and the Valiant
@@MercenaryPen Plus there was one in Voyager when the doctor was sent to the beta quadrant via the subspace network and they had a fight with the Romulans.
I've always interpreted the Borg subsystem issue to mean that the important systems do exist, but that they can be regenerated and reestablished elsewhere if damaged. If only 20-ish percent of the cube's volume is left, that's still enough for them to regenerate their subsystems in that remaining volume to have a functional/combat-capable if diminished ship.
Honestly, if this had been a crossover of the TNG and DS9 casts dealing with the Borg, it would've made for one hell of a movie, depending on who was sent down to assist Cochrane.
(I haven't watched the video) I think having Sisko confront Picard in the ready room would have been extremely powerful, especially for Star Trek lore.
Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in minutes 😂 Same with the Enterprise-A traveling to the center of the galaxy in hours in ST5, or the ST Into Darkness Enterprise warping from the Klingon homeworld back to Earth in the time it took Kirk to have a little chitchat with Khanberbatch! 😂
Why was Worf and the _Defiant_ there and not at DS9? Because Keiko O'Brian was about to have another baby, and he didn't want to have to deliver it too, that's why.
Cuz audiences who only watched TNG but not DS9 would wonder where the fuck Worf was in a movie about the TNG cast... cuz audiences are apparently stupid
Also... Sisko is the emissary and a lynch pin keeping the Bajoran's on Team Federation, despite having no official ties to the Federation. If Sisko died, StarFleet would lose the only officer with any leverage to keep Bajor on side if a situation arose that made Bajor question whose side it was on... Pesky politician's, Kai's and Vedek's have a tendency to scheme after all and Sisko's presence could keep that event from transpiring at a time when StarFleet didn't need another bush fire along it's Frontier.
@@davfree9732 Plus Sisko like Picard has history with the borg so it might make sense to keep them away in case the trauma of the past gets in the way of the battle.
lol. There's actually an even funnier answer for this that is actually canon if you check: He was off with Eddington in the badlands when the Borg invaded. It's never mentioned in the episode or anything but the timeline does literally put him in a shuffle craft out of communication range. Still sad they couldn't pay Dax & Kira for a 30 second cameo.. even MORE sad they couldn't pay O'Brian to be in the movie.. he coulda just come along with Worf.
Star Trek, the Search for Spock also showed shields going up and down in sections. Which makes sense, as you would need multiple generators as to get all around coverage. Additionally, both TNG, and DS9 had episodes where various enemies could beam through shields. So makes sense that the Federation would learn from that.
There's been an uneven use of shield in Trek between series, and in series'...sometimes shields are treated as a contiguous "bubble" around the ship, and other times they treated as discrete segments that form an entire shield, or both at the same time. It makes sense to me that they have a segmented shield system that works together to form an overall "bubble"/grid, but that various shield generators can get overloaded ("Number 4 shield is collapsing" or "ventral shields are reduced 50%") and that the tech progresses to where a particular shield "segment" can be reinforced or dropped as needed.
Let's destroy that theory, so in season 4 of ds9 we find out in episode 1 that they can't beam truth the shield so this upgrade has to be between Season 4 and First contact so far your upgrade timeline works in voyager the wounded we find out the can beam truth the shield that's post season 4 so so far so good but wait a minute voyager has not had federation contact after this upgrade took place so that would leave us with a plot hole again, now this is the simple version there are plenty of times in TNG they beam truth the shields as well, the reality is writing is just horribly inconstant about it and sure we can solve it by inventing upgrades to shields and transports until we get to a functional timeline, but really it seems more likely that the writers just screw this up as they sometimes need the transfer of people to be hard between ships and sometimes they don't care.
I think the subsystems issue actually makes sense if you think about it like this: subsystems existing makes sense in itself but with multiple redundancies so that if even all but 1 is destroyed, the system still operates. Think of it as having a thousand propulsion blocks all allowing the cube to move, take out 900 of them and it can still move. If we assume its systems work like this, which would make more sense then them simply operating out of the ether as their introduction in the series implies, then having them get the focus would make sense, but it would also make sense that Picard would realise which ones would, due to the damage sustained by the cube by that point, be able to cause the whole thing to collapse if they where taken out at once. A seemingly indestructible foundation that showed cracks, and had a hammer applied at just the right spot, and where you once had a tower that seemed indestructible you now have a house of cards. It's the exact type of oversight a species like the Borg would be expected to make when designing such a system, as they'd never assume someone could cause such a cascade failure to begin with due to the nature of combating the Borg.
I agree - due to the damage the Cube had already sustained it's normal redundancies were strained to a near-breaking point. And Picard, due to his link with the Borg, knew exactly where they were most vulnerable at that particular time.
Exactly how I see it. Absolute redundancy, zero centralization, means that those independent systems would have to be designed in a way that operations are cascading or emergent; the operation of each individual component resulting in a positive feedback loop from which emerges operations as a whole. This being the case, if you want to destroy the whole, you need to affect a positive feedback loop amongst a local cluster of components that will cascade to the rest of the components resulting in the destruction of the whole. I think this is what Picard was after and I also think he knew it would work based on his insight into the Borg.
RE: Borg subsystems... On reflection, the dialogue from the original "Q Who?" episode is a bit more ambiguous than I'd first thought. Data says he can't find *identifiable* things like a bridge or an engineering section aboard the Borg ship. That doesn't mean the ship completely lacks things that would perform those functions, just that the cube is so thoroughly unlike anything Data or the _Enterprise's_ computer were familiar with that they had no idea what they were looking at. Of course, he also says he can't identify any life forms aboard either, despite the thing being packed to the brim with drones and cute little baby borg who are nowhere close to being fully integrated, so it's possible the _Enterprise's_ sensors were just overwhelmed or jammed, and reported gibberish instead of anything useful. Either way, "Best of Both Worlds" showed that the Borg _did_ use subsystems, because the away team started blowing up very specific power nodes to force the cube to stop and fix the damage, thereby buying time for Commander Shelby's magic deflector-dish weapon to fail and doom the fleet at Wolf 359.
The borg use decentralised design, like a block of apartments everywhere has similar look to it, most sections of the ship are simply general purpose rooms with maybe a big redundant power conduit system deep inside. When they routed power passed the damage they concentrated it in a basic area of the ship and the Feds knew exactly where so they fired on that area.
Norton would not help the Borg. To many instances of the program treating legal downloads as viruses in it's early days. The program that controls the Borg subsystem would be treated as a virus and turned off by Norton.
Regarding how the Borg managed to beam on board: The transport was from the Sphere to the Enterprise when both ships already were in the past. The Enterprise's shield probably went down when they arrived in the past. Apart from that, I would not at all be surprised if the Borg of all races had the ability to beam through shields. They are after all able to neutralize any other form of energy, so why not shields too.
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is. Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though. It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that. This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
its stated ver batum that the shields, long range sensors and communications systems were offline directly after exciting the apeture of the temporal portal.
The Defiant was called by its name by Riker . Why would it be a different ship. Obviously worf was commanding it because he took it out on a spin from ds9 when the Borg attacked and there was no time to pick up Sisko before engaging the Borg
Then again, Worf has a lot of experience fighting the Borg. Also, Starfleet likely wanted Sisko at DS9 in case the Dominion caught wind of the battle and tried to make a movie. And maybe that's exactly why the Dominion War started when it did.
There's also the fact that Sao Paulo was a freshly commissioned ship at the time it was given to Sisko and renamed Defiant, IIRC. She's either still under construction or not yet started at this point in time.
You're all wrong. It was obi wan kenobi using the force telling Picard where to hit the cube. That's why he was hearing voices. He only thought that it was the Borg because nobody he has never heard of the force and assumed that it was the Borg. That's why when they went back in time, there wasn't a voice to warn him about the Borg on the Enterprise because kenobi didn't go back in time with them.
I can imagine that each picket line was made up of diverse ships, some old, some new to make each one as effective as possible. Seeing a handful of Oberth and Miranda as well as the new classes Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre, Defiant, Norway etc. makes sense. I would hazard a guess that earlier picket lines had more Galaxy, Nebula, Excelsior, Freedom, New Orleans, etc., and fewer of the newer classes for more balance and that is why we do not see them.
I think most likely the newer and larger ships were destroyed in front lines. It's only logical to have the Galaxy class and ships were constantly attacking and taking the most damage. Then the weaker ships can swoop in for the attack once the cube becomes weaker. With every retreat back down the line there wouldn't be any left once the fleet reached sector 001.
@@CurtisWT The Dominion War saw the Federation use the Galaxy Class as Battlecruisers/Battleships in "Galaxy Wings." Given the proximity of First Contact to those events in the timeline, it's safe to assume that at least a lion's share of those vessels are already in service by this time since the Starfleet couldn't construct and crew them overnight and there's a limit to the Federation's starship construction berthings.
Most of the ships shown were the refit combat variants, they even show the Tacitcal Variant of the Nebula class, although they dont make the spectacle of its upper torpedo bay as it should have been.
Regarding the 'no essential systems there' targeting location, I've always thought it was something more like this. Picard knows the layout of Borg Cubes probably better than anyone but Seven of Nine. I figure he had a quick sensor sweep run over the cube, not to look inside, but to find a spot where there was already a fair bit of damage along a path that would cause numerous power nodules to be destroyed all at once if the whole fleet fired on it. Since you can see inside a cube from the outside, it stands to reason that the vessel is likely at least partially held together by structural integrity fields or something similar, in order to facilitate rapid repair via replicators, nanites, and drones. But if you caused enough of a power fluctuation all at once, you may destabilize the integrity fields. With all the damage it had already been taking on all facings, those fields were likely a primary source of structure at that time, until repairs could progress further. With so much firepower being poured basically straight down one of those borg hallways where away teams were always shooting glowies in the ceiling, it's not beyond belief that for an instant, the structural integrity fields failed, and since the cube had sustained so much damage already, and was moving under power and fighting, it tore itself apart. Thus, it's a tactic that while possibly repeatable, unlike having data put them to sleep, it requires extensive setup and knowledge of the layout of the ship along with a degree of understanding of how said ship actually functions. All things Picard had at that exact moment. The right person there at the right moment to best make use of his abilities.
I don't know if someone has mentioned it but watching the footage, just before it cuts to the inside of the Defiant you see a Borg beam hit the starboard side of the ship. That might be what knocked out weapons and shields. They already had massive damage on that side.
I think it's mentioned why the Enterprise's shields were down. After going back in time, the rift they traveled through caused the shields to be temporarily knocked out. This was for no more than a few minutes before they were restored but it was enough to get some of the drones from the sphere over before the sphere was destroyed.
Videos like this are why your channel continues to grow, while channels that are 90% live streaming and superchat driven are stagnating. Kudos for keeping the mix fresh and the content well researched, thoughtful and interesting 👍
What I'm hearing is that the Borg realized that Starfleet has plot armor and they are attempting to assimilate that. If the Borg win the series is suddenly set on a sphere getting into shenanigans.
The Federation also changed up their tactics. During Wolf 359, Starfleet set up a "battle line" where ships would fly in one at a time. The idea was to fly in, hit a few times, and retreat. They woefully underestimated the Borg's sheer firepower though. You see ships being picked off one by one, often before they are even able to get off a shot. Here, they are *swarming* the cube. In conjunction with their improved weapons and shields, it's a tactic that proves its effectiveness. Also in regards to the Defiant, there is dialogue in DS9 that indicates the Defiant was actually there. Granted they are throwaway lines, but they do talk about the ship being repaired before it can come back to the station.
Actually, from the footage in the premiere of DS9, you can see, at Wolf 359, the federation battle lines were 3 ships at a time. And the Borg quickly adapted to their shield frequencies, and were killing off vessels with one shot each. Admiral Hansen was an idiot for thinking that was a viable strategy. The only real advancements the UFP made were better shield/phaser frequency modulation, and better combat tactics against a single ship. I was watching that battle, and hoped that the cube would break up into smaller cubes, and really throw Starfleet for a loop. And I thought that was the case when the sphere launched. And from that point on, it was a disappointing Borg story, decent Star Trek story.
Alternate explanation for Starfleet's victory: The cube was just a delivery system for the time-travel sphere. It soaks up the damage from the Starfleet ships so that the sphere can get to Earth undamaged.
@@JackPonissi In TOS the time travel method was a warp-driven slingshot orbit around the sun. The Borg method may require proximity to a destination planet in order to navigate the quantum fluctuations to find the desired era. (Translation: Beats the heck out of me.)
I always thought that the Borg in this variation were actually Borg from the future, come back in time, using time travel technology from assimilated future Janeway. This is what changes the timeline to give us Enterprise and then Discovery. So therefore Discovery is technically all Janeway's fault.
The beaming aboard of Defiant survivors, with the shields up, was done using the newest tech and like mentioned the New shield grid system. This shield grid system is used in star trek online as well. I can lower 1 of the 6 quadrants of the shields in that game. Also the new shield system allows for transferring the power from one shield to another. Meaning you could lose the forward shield and still transfer power from the rear and side shields to the forward shield to bring it back up quicker, while weakening the other shields. Also it means you have more shield generators and more shield capacity than you had with the old shield systems of dorsal and ventral sheilding. NB : If I remember correctly the shield systems used to be top and bottom / fore and aft Generated off a pair of generators. Meaning that the fore shields had one generator and the aft shields had another. But these new shields for the sovereign class have 6 generators and many emitors. Giving 6 shield quadrants and they can shut off just a section for transport. It also means that they can generate shields better and faster / manipulate the shields in different configurations and frequencies over the entire grid or just a section. Anohter benefit is that the Dorsal and Ventral shielding could be extended over the ship at one frequency while the other shields could be used on a stronger frequency to defeat the borg adaptive beams. In The Origional Series... I think there is an episode where they have a Transporter beam in effect as the shields go up... It basically blows the transporter circuits to hell and kills the people being transported. This was because the transporter interacted with the shields and bounced back on itself, instead of proceeding to the expected destination.
@8:45 "When we look at a map of the universe" - shows a map of the GALAXY - Universe contains all GALAXIES - we live in the Milky Way GALAXY, which is where Star Trek takes place...
The scene where we see Worf and the weapons are found to be offline is directly after we see the Defiant do a strafing run and use it's weapons, yes, but right at the end of that strafing run, it takes a direct hit by the Borgs main weapon. Judging from the outer hull damage we had seen on the Defiant during that strafing run, it's likely their shields were already down from previous attacks, and so it withstood a direct hit without shields. It's ablative armor is likely why it wasn't destroyed outright, but it losing so many critical systems, including weapons, is very understandable considering the potency of the Borg weapons.
I never thought that the complete decentralization of Borg systems made any sense. Sure, their command systems are distributed, but certain things, such as propulsion would certainly need to have at least some centralization, in order to function sensibly. This in turn would require centralized power supplies and conduits. Having an individual power generator and thruster for each drone would not work.
Indeed and the idea that causing the right failure at the wrong time could cause a power grid to suffer a catastrophic cascading failure isn't unheard of we have several examples of several thousand square kilometers of our highly redundant power grid go bye bye. This one for example www.power-grid.com/content/dam/elp/site-images/Satellite%20image.png that makes a rather large black hole in an image the size of a continent.
I also agree. The São Paulo was renamed Defiant before it ever entered any battle, but even so, the Battle of Sector 001 predates the original Defiant’s destruction by several years. The São Paulo likely wouldn’t have even been built at this point.
@@mb2000 We don't know the Sao Paolo's commission date, but it wasn't renamed Defiant till basically the last days of the Dominion War which was years after First Contact
First Contact, Stardate: 50893.5, clearly takes place in DS9's 5th season. In the 5th season episode "In Purgatory's Shadow" Sisko references the events of First Contact, two years before the destruction of the Defiant and the renaming of the São Paulo. I wish the Defiant had been destroyed, but at least the Dominion achieved that victory.
I'm sure others have or will say it too but, you mentioned how the Defiant fired with weapons down. In the clip, she took one last hit before we cut to Worf, but after her final shots were fired. So that last hit may have been the final straw that broke her. She'd clearly already taken damage, so it's not that unfeasible that it only needed a little more to disable her. As for the subsystems, I'd argue that any vessel will have points of failure. We saw this in the distribution nodes in TNG. You take out a few in the right spot, and systems are disrupted for a time. This actually makes sense to me even on a ship that has no defined area. If you pick the right spot and cut the right lines, eventually you'll find the flow of energy disrupted enough to cause a problem or two. I could see the Borg deciding to clear this minor glitch before moving forward, hence what we see in TNG. Further, if the Borg use anti-matter or some other volatile form of power, no amount of decentralization can stop that core from being a bomb an enemy can exploit if they can get to it. And depending on the tech, it may have to be big enough to be a threat to the ship to provide enough power, but it can't be miniaturized to spread them throughout the ship. or, maybe they are, but they're still sunk deep to prevent an enemy from hitting any of them before the ship can adapt. Picard may have directed the barrage onto a point that would be easier to bore through for one reason or another, or would hit the right collection of power cores to cause the chain reaction we see claim the ship. For one thing, if the Borg use physical torpedoes like Starfleet does, any small magazine could potentially be set off by an exploding power core, and thus the chain reaction grows. I love these break downs! As a sci-fi writer myself, I love doing this kind of deep thinking about things. Really makes creating fun!
Also why didn't the Federation make better use of anti-matter. As formidable as they were the Borg and their ships were made of matter. Since the Federation ships could penetrate their shields why not instead of photon or even quantum torpedoes why rig up some remotely controlled some warp nacelles to ram the cube at warp 9 with humongous amounts of anti-matter as their warheads!!!! The cube would be vaporized !!!💥💥💥💥💥💥💥👍‼️
@@LSOK38 The defiant has an anti matter pod on the front of it, when it tried to ram the cube the cube destroyed it's engines. Also when the Borg know something is in front of them they can concentrate power forward as Seven explains about the huge structural integrity field theBorg use during transwarp.
"Speed of plot" you missed the perfect opportunity to say "Fortunately, the Soverign's warp drive could travel at Warp 9.plot". So disappointed. Also, because the writers didn't plan out technology and technological advancement that could happen over consequtive series, 9.995 (iirc, that's the Soverigns warp speed) is monumentally faster than 9.975. I remember reading somewhere that it can cut a journey of weeks down to days, if not hours.
the chart i use for my star trek sim doesn't have warp 9.975 on it but the difference between warp 9.99 and warp 9.9999 is insanely high. 7,912c compared to 199,516c. a 20LY trip would take 22hrs at warp 9.99 and 53 minutes at warp 9.9999..
My headcanon for the subsystems thing is that yes, the borg have multiple - even dozens of redundant and backup systems spread across the entire ship that could be switched to and used to adapt to changing situations. That doesn't necessarily mean that the ship doesn't have power nodes, relays, shield generators etc - just that there are dozens of backup and failsafes in place. However the Cube in this fight had already taken massive amounts of damage - and they were reading "fluctuations in the power grid". In my head, thats because the borg were having to switch between multiple redundant systems to keep the cube running. Picard, with his inate knowledge of borg ships, recognises the pattern of the fluctuations and realises that if he focuses firepower on one vital redundant power relay - the redundant systems will fail, leading to a cascade power overload across the rest of the ship.
A few notes; The Defiant was a prototype, along with a few other ships, but it was expressed in DS9 that they never really were functional as they tended to tear themselves apart. It’s likely they were never put into mass production, at least until O’Brien managed to fix the Defiant. Being that this was just before this Borg attack, it’s unlikely the Federation had many functional Defiant class ready. Additionally the Borg had already broken through the Federations first lines of defence as indicated in the comm channel they listened to. It’s likely the hardest hitting options would have been there, such as any operational Defiance class vessels and other Sovereign class ships. I suspect the Defiant was probably recalled to Earth immediately upon the detection of the cube, and likely didn’t have time to join the fleet in the initial contacts. I believe what we are seeing in First Contact is the last lines, ships probably fast tracked out of space dock, ships that could get to Earth in time, etc. I feel the Federation felt they could eliminate. Cube long before it got this far and thus didn’t recall the entirety of the fleet. No doubt Sisko, for example is on DS9 in case the Dominion took advantage, in the same way Picard was supposed to guard against Romulan exploitation. My biggest issue with this particular moment is the complete lack of orbital defenses around Earth itself. I know they said they broke the Mars or Jupiter defence field but I would still expect important Federation worlds like Earth and Vulcan to have some sort of protection.
Something we do know about the USS Defiant is that it was also equipped with Ablative armor so that might be why it was able to take such a battering from the Borg cube for as long as it did because it had stronger hull armor and it took longer for it lose power
Starfleet started weapons before wolf 359, the weapon programs started just after first contact with the Borg was made. It was stated just before wolf 359 that they thought they had more time and the new weapons were still two years away.
The novelization of the movie explains why Picard targeted that point on the Cube. What's indistinct on screen in the novel is actually Picard hearing the Borg say that shields on that section of the cube had been critically damaged and needed to be regenerated ASAP. When they fleet opened fire on that section they blew right through the weakened shields allowing their weapons to begin exploding inside the ship and the interior of Borg ships has a lot of hollow spaces allowing damage to spread rapidly hence why after a few seconds of fire the Cube exploded once the shields and outer armor were breached by the Federation weapons.
I think you can interpret the non essential borg cube target an easier way. Maybe data just meant that it didn't seem to be as active as the rest of the cube, perhaps from damage (it did already have a hole in it) and so it seemed power was low in that section. It doesn't mean a subsystem was vulnerable in Datas view, it just meant that that particular part of the cube seemed out of commission already.
The Battle of Sector 001 was a confrontation between the United Federation of Planets and the Borg Collective in 2373. The USS Sao Paulo was launched from the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards in late-2375, on stardate 52889.3.
For the type of vessels in the battle... the Federation's vessels are modular in nature. They can probably rip out all the segments not related to combat, insert new segments forced on offensive technology and tactical systems. So its possible that every ship there is as armed to the gills as possible.
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is. Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though. It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that. This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
in order to do some damage to the borg cube was the torpedoes and quantum torpedoes had to change their frequencies upon hitting the borg hull. Also shield modulation had to be changed 50 times per minute...before the borgs weapons hitting the ships hull, cause the borg can adapt quickly in penetrating the fleets hull and finding a weakness
In 2003, I served as Navigator on the Wasp-Class assault ship USS BATAAN (LHD 5). One quiet afternoon in the Virginia Capes operating area, I was on the bridge and my captain was in his chair on the bridge's port side. I looked out the starboard side windows and saw a very unique silhouette on the horizon, the aircraft carrier USS ENTERPRISE (CVN 65). I crossed the bridge to where my captain was sitting and told him as I pointed to starboard, "Sir, I've been waiting my entire career to say this. Captain, it's the ENTERPRISE!!!" He just looked at me, smiled, and said "Thanks Gator!"
The way I always saw the "no critical systems" was due to how I believe the borg assemble their ships. By assimilating other vessels and welding them together. By doing this, the many minor systems (and lack of central systems) would be seemingly random. That would mean there would be "gaps" where there would be no power cores, no central plexus, no thrusters, etc. Just stuff like alcoves and assimilation chambers. Because of this, I reasoned Picard predicted less shielding in those areas and figured putting enough firepower in that one spot would "overflow" into the actually important things. Not sure how the large explosion resulted, but I guess those quantum torpedoes had movie-magic warheads.
The answer to how the Enterprise arrived in time was their location along the Neutral Zone. Starfleet engaged the Borg near the Typhon expanse bordering the Romulan Neutral Zone. They embarked in a running battle assumingly falling back to various picket lines then re-engaging the cube. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Enterprise could catch up at Maximum Warp considering the stop-start nature of the battle and their proximity to said battle.
It makes sense that a ship to ship transport uses a secure commlink to communicate the needed frequencies to allow beaming through shields, as in Generations we learn shields can be bypassed just by know the shield modulation frequency & in Wrath of Kahn where each ship has a remote command code which can drop shields.
Transporters can get through shields, if they are sent through in sync with shield modulation. You can beam through your own shields whenever you want, but you have to know your enemy's shield modulation to synchronize with it.
People often criticize "ramming" in space but don't really realize how much energy you can get out of mass x velocity. Full Impulse is actually pretty fast, imagine a rail gun that fired a projectile the mass of the defiant. Also Sisko was in the Badlands of Eddington at the time of First Contact.
For clarification on the statement at around 10:47 or so, the trip through the temporal anomaly had disrupted the shields, that's how the Borg were able to escape the sphere onto the lower decks of the Enterprise.
About the "vital system" argument. I believe you all got it wrong. Borg don't have vital systems, or designated engineering or bridge. But as the ship suffer more and more damage. Some couplings are knocked out, and they need to reroute the power to other relays. So Picard heard them, so he could catch them in the middle of repairing one of such relay/conduit whatever and blowing them in the right moment would cause chain reaction. Or he targeted the overloaded coupling, that due to damage of other sections of the cube, operated at its "red line". Either way, it was not a design flaw in borg ship, or change in borg technology. It is rather an opportunity, of which Picard took advantage of.
WRT Borg subsystems, the initial 'all of the ship are all of the subsystems' is an observation made by the away team during their initial encounter, not something Q or the Borg themselves state or confirm. And even by Best of Both Worlds, that idea is discarded as they do identify a network subsystem to attack and force the Borg to 'stop and scratch an itch.' Now extrapolate that to the Borg cube worn down by days of fighting such that the outer hull is heavily compromised... and where Picard's connection allowed him to eavesdrop on the Borg worrying over a subsystem that could destroy the entire cube if it took too much damage...
11:44 I like how you embiggen Star Fleet, it's technology and tactics to do damage to the borg and then in the next metaphorical breath indicate that the assimilation of Federation officers weakened the Borg in some way. Of course the Borg had subsystems but they were decentralised, mostly, which would indicate that each system would have backups in a different location. The explanation why this cube had a weakness was in the gaping sphincter of an anus for the Borg Sphere. All the systems that would ordinarily be present in that side of the cube would not be present in the modification, hence a weakness. It then comes down to tactics and with Borg Queen presented a hitherto unknown singularity into the equation. Borg queen expected and planned for the destruction of the cube, a plan B. Plan B was activated as Plan A blew up. They went back in time to an easier time. Plot armour for Enterprise E allowed it to follow in the sphere's wake and you got the movie.
Not sure if you consider the First Contact Book Cannon Material....but Picard still had a connection to the Borg, he wasn't targeting a specific system, but something being regenerated in the Cube, that when attacked would cause a cascade of internal damage to the Borg Cube....according to the book....its like intentionally shorting out a surge protector and destroying everything plugged into it in the process.
I read somewhere that Picard targeted a waste disposal recycling system on the Borg Cube, igniting it, causing the cube to blow up from the inside. Not technically a 'sub system' but the borg cube does a corner where all the poo goes. Data, wouldn't think that function of the ship would be anything vital.... but it is combustible. It was located deep inside the cube, requiring almost every ship to drill into it with weapons fire.
My issue with Star Trek battles is all the ships are loaded with large numbers of phaser arrays, but you rarely if ever see them use more than a single phaser at once, and normally fire a brief shot and the stop firing. With the specific battle being discussed, why does it take Picard to tell the fleet to concentrate fire on a specific location? Sure they didn’t know which point would cause the most damage, but surely a single area on each side of the cube having deep holes blasted into it than random damage across the outer hull.
Also worth noting that the Defiant also had it's warhead module, which assuming they didn't use the torpedoes that are contained in said module, which is likely why Worf called for Ramming speed. Would've been very much great to see the Warhead module in action
Allow me to educate you on shield tech, "If you know the frequency of your own shield's, then you can beam through it". That's why modulating and rotating shield frequencies is so important. The transporter chief can see and monitor the shield modulations in real time and knows the pattern of the rotation "It's not actually random like people think, it's just a very complicated algorithm that is designed to look random to an enemy ship." So the transporter is simply set to the same algorithm, so you can port through it safely"... This isn't something they knew right away, they learned it over time... Probably around the same time they learned to transport at warp speeds...
Assimilation of the strengths followed by the weaknesses sounds possible. Also I do agree that it look like the Borg ship was hit so many times as it shows the Federation been hitting the Borg ship so many times that they might have drain the regenerative strength of the Borg cube. The scene of Picard pinpointing the ship vital system, made me think the possibility that the federation's ship scanners was improved to be able to detect a lot of strong vital systems and i think because the Federation star ships been hitting those strong points so many times it drain the Borg cube's ability to adapt as they keep focus on repairs just to keep the cube to last long enough to reach their objective :3 Anyway, the other part i thought about when the moment Picard pinpointed the Cube's weakness, and i thought as well that moment tells me that the Borg must have had adapted a diversion tactic against stronger advance civilizations with advance weapons and scanning technology, by hiding a vital point of their ship to systems that do not appear of any vital system, that way they could avoid full damage to the Borg ship and using that weak appearing sub vital system to buy time to both repair and adapt and likely had used that more then once on countless other species they assimilated to the collective. It's just my thought of the possibility as i'm no real expert on the topic and it likely could be very different from what i know. Anyway i at least enjoyed the movie and i wish anyone that reads a good day or better and take care and stay safe out there, plus go in peace with longevity.
The older ships were likely there as they were what Starfleet had in the area. I'm pretty sure every functional shipt hat could get there was dispatched, those who couldn't get there were dispatched to other areas to guard in case the Borg would try and attack other worlds.. Or deployed around Dominion space in case war broke out. They weren't the best ships to fight the Borg (or fight in the first place). They were the ships that Starfleet had available.
Ramming speed isn’t really about causing kinetic damage. The bulk of the damage would result form the catastrophic release of the Defiant’s antimatter stores.
I know how the borg managed to get onto the enterprise. We see that picard still has access to the borgs thoughts and thats how he knew where its weakness was in the cube. However as we learned back in best of both worlds and voyager, it's not possible to separate a borg from the collective entirely once assimilated and the concious thoughts go both ways. As such when picard beamed the survivors off the defiant, the borg quietly beamed over to the enterprise at the exact same time as they had access to the sheild modulations for that precise moment to allow for intra sheild beaming as picard would have to know what they were. It's essentially the same tactic lursa and betor used to slice through the enterprise sheilds in generations using geordie as a spy. Only now with E, the sheilds constantly change frequencies to prevent that from ever happening again... except that when your beaming through shields the modulation must remain static. So the borg knew it was going to happen, knew the modulations and also knew how to block the ship sensors from detecting them once on board, because everything picard knows, they know. This also explains how the sphere was able to survive, the queen laid a trap for picard, she let slip a weak point, picard took the bait and in the resulting explosion the sphere escaped. This explains EXACTLY WHY federation brass didn't want picard anywhere NEAR the battle, he was a horrendous liability and would aid the borg without him even knowing it. This also explains why Data alone had the access code to deactivate the self destruct , because by that point picard had figured out that he was vulnerable, and as such the borg also knew that he had figured it out which explains why they specifically captured and tortured data, and why picard lost his mind near the end....he had been the arcitech of all of this...and much like when he was locutus, he was utterly helpless to stop it.
An interesting thought, but I respectfully disagree. As you said the shield frequencies are automatically modulating, so there would be no way Picard could know the exact frequency at the moment of transport. Picard himself says they beamed to the Enterprise as they destroy the sphere because their shields were down, since the moment they exited the temporal rift the helmsman/ops guy stated that systems were offline including the shields. Picard's exact quote was: "They knew our shields were down, their vessel was doomed." So it makes more sense that's when the borg actually beamed over, as before then with their internal sensors still online prior to going through the rift they'd have detected the borg beaming over as that would be part of the countermeasures.
Good analysis. In my own headcannon, I thought the Defiant was at Earth or Utopia Planetia getting an upgrade for the upcoming Dominion conflict, with Worf and a skeleton crew supervising the work. Starfleet likely had another ship covering DS9 at the time. When the Borg attacked, Worf took the Defiant into battle. After the events of FC, the Defiant was refit, ablative armor and all, and returned to DS9.
By the time the Cube got to Earth it had fought an advanced Federation fleet in a running battle from the Typhon sector, where they made the first stand. In the first part of the engagement you can hear Starships being destroyed and Captains asking for reinforcements. And even after all that, the cube only had outer hull damage when it got to Earth....
@0:23 to the left side, under the Akira, you see a explosion out from the Borg cube.... and coming from that explosion, none other than the Millennium Falcon. Thanks for the assist. :)
Re: transporters throughout the series. In both Picard and Season 3 of Discovery, you see transporters operating at a much faster rate, to the point where it’s essentially instantaneous; they just “pop” into place as opposed to the more familiar “charging” sequence.
Whoa... excellent breakdown. I feel like I've gone into a time warp and got the youtube analysis that we would have gotten if youtube came out in 96 instead of 06
The borg do have subsystems though they just have multiple redundancies this was shown in TNG when they boarded the ship and shot the power nodes or whatever they were. Also the dialog indicates that the Enterprise had been traveling for quite a while before reaching the cube as earlier dialog indicated the battle was going to start quite a ways from Earth based on the sector the fleet was being mobilized in. Fact the cube was already at earth shows that it had likely been getting into fights off and on with the fleet the whole way to Earth.
The non-vital system being referenced.. is a callback to how Data defeated the Borg the last time... by accessing a low-level command for regeneration... it caused the Borg to drop their guard so the ENterprise could do its thing
The way I looked at the sub system thing was this. The area Picard indicated had nothing of importance. Therefore it was structurally insignificant. A good point to dig into the hull and allow the Enterprise's quantum torpedoes to detonate deeper in the hull. Possibly in a similar way to the transphasic torpedo later. Weapons like that would be far more effective detonating deep inside a relatively empty hull than they would impacting on the surface. That was always the hard part about destroying Borg ships. Most weapons wouldn't get through the outer hull. However, when we see something detonate from within... It's devastating.
Yeah... That thing about using the transporter while at warp... I do not recall one time they transported off/onto the ship while at warp. They used site to site and would beam from one place to another on the ship (in the warp bubble), but that's it.
Okay so a thought about transporting through shields, there could be a IFF system in place to allow a certain transporter beam frequency or whatever is used by that thing, to work through UFP shields only. I mention UFP ships only cause not much time difference in DS9 does Sisko needs to transport the new Cardassian civilian government aboard and he had to lower the shields and let the "new armor" take the punishment. That's when Worf suggests the rear tractor beam to deflect the Klingon disruptors.
Starfleet didn't want Picard and Sisco in the battle because of the idea they would both become paralyzed from reliving their past experiences with the Borg. The area of the cube that was targeted could have been the location of the trans-warp system in this cube, Picard was able to hear some of the Borg communications, the explosion of the trans-warp system during a power up may have caused a devastating power overload. It's likely the cube was transferring power to the sphere to power the time jump.
The "transport through the shields" thing is easy when you know your own shield modulation.
Update (a year later): Don't forget that in Generations, the Klingon Duras sisters used Geordi's visor to spy on the Ent-D. From that they got the shield frequencies, and were able to fire a torpedo that passed right through the shields and damage the ship.
So the Ent-E definitely knows its own shield frequencies and can transport through them.
P.S.: maybe this was something the Starfleet engineers figured out how to do between the time of the series and the time of the movies. That is, it used to be impossible, but they figured out how to do it.
That's literally the only way to do it
They'd need constant telemetry from each ship to stat up to date. Fighting the Borg, its prudent to randomize your shield modulation to limit damage from the cube's weapons. So yes with this in mind it is still possible. The Borg may have also intercepted this telemetry data and figured out the Enterprise's shield modulation and transport over.
@@DeepCZero3 yeah erm... the defiant already lost its shields.... so the enterprise only needed to beam through its own shields... and god i hope know the mod of their own shields....
Good point and well said starfleet ship to ship it’s just a case of random shield modulation which is being remodulated in the battle anyway so in has more advantages then just able to withstand Borg or Dominion weapon attacks weapons in being better for the case of the sovereign class we have to remember it’s an updated onwards galaxy class so troop transport was surely considered in and out of battle situations where shields needed to be involved 👍😊😊
The writers and producers haven't been in unison about that topic over the years. Sometimes it's impossible, then they just do it, no questions asked. Maybe there are logical reasons in certain occasions, but imho the matter hasn't been displayed on screen properly.
The Federation has adapted to the Borg and begun to assimilate them (Seven of Nine, Hugh, etc).
Payback's a female targ.
@anon incognito What i would like to see is the Federation having to team up with all it's enemies against a common threat that none of them can handle alone. Imagine the Tholians calling them for help. You know it has to be bad. :)
@@stevengreen9536 "You must be TRULY desperate to come to ME for help"!
-Loki
Sorry, this comment seemed to really work in this instance, LOL!
@@nurse425 Lol but you get the jest of it. :P
"If we dont know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
- Anonymous UFP Officer
“A serious problem in planning against Federation doctrine is that the Federates do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine.”
2:35: THATS OBVIOUS?!?
THAT'S INHUMANE AS HECK!
If you encounter a ship and don't know who it is, fire a shot across their bow. If they return fire with accurate disruptor shots, they're Romulan. If they try to ram you, they're Klingon. If they surrender, they're Cardassian. If they return a few years later with an ungodly more powerful ship, they're Starfleet.
@@khartog01 and aim for your weapon.
That is both ludicrous and hilarious but it makes sense.
The one important Defiant mission that didn't demand the entire senior staff of DS9 to abandon the station.
If you think about it, Sisko must have goten specific orders from starfleet to stay out of the fight just like Picard did, the only difference Picard disobeyed his orders, Sisko didnt
@@DarththeHorrible I don't know the exact order of events but the events of this film happen around the start of the Dominion war. Sisco could have been very preoccupied, its hard to imagine why the Defiant was available though. It must have been relatively close though as ds9 is over a week away from earth at warp 9.
@@DrewLSsix My thought is that the defiant was probably undergoing refits/upgrades or was ferrying some people to or from Earth. It was a very important ship and they wanted it in tip top shape before the Dominion War
@@DrewLSsix Sisko mentions the Borg attack in "In Purgatory's Shadow" which is about 10 episodes before the war's start.
Sisko had PTSD, and Kira was a Bajoran - neither one belonged in that fight.
I LOVE the Battle of Sector 001. The entry of the Cube, seeing that it's almost reached Earth, the ominous music, the non stop swarming by Starfleet which I've always imagined would've been getting ever more desperate, the absolute kicking the Defiant has endured, Worf's last ditch ramming tactic, and that Akira at emerging from the fireball through the screen... Still absolutely God-tier sci-fi battle for me, even with the amount of Plot Armour and holes, I love every second of it.
I do think what we see was the Defiant's last volley, dialogue tells us it's been fighting since the first moments and either it's been battered into submission and can no longer power its weapons or the weapons have been destroyed in the last hit from the Borg weapons. The tone and delivery suggested to me that main power and shields being offline is not a recent thing, also suggested by the visual damage. My assumption is that Worf knows the Defiant can be a massive anti-matter explosion and so doesn't hesitate to order them to ram the cube. It fits his character for me and VOY: Year of Hell Pt.2 shows the damage ramming does.
Plus he was still a Klingon and would die before giving up
today is a good day to die....Qapla !!!!GLORY TO THE FEDERATION AND KLINGON EMPIRE!!!!
Worf: prepare ramming speed!
Random ensign in his head: oh thank god.. “sir another ship is coming in!”
I’d like to propose the idea that the reason the enterprise he was initially left out was out of concern for revealing the Federation possessed that level of technology to the Borg hive.
Lastly I heard that the Enterprise had a ludicrous speed drive installed on Tuesday.
I can absolutely imagine Adam Scott thinking that! >.
Yeah, they went to plaid.
Ben Wyat:
"How did I get here and thank god for the Sovereign class NCC-1701-E, launched stardate 49827.5, to arrive to save my precious butt. Also, I would really like some mini-calzone's right now."
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is.
Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though.
It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that.
This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
@@slevinchannel7589 nope, I don't...you write your sentences like a poorly written AI coded by people that didn't master the English language yet.
Lore goes a bit deeper into the analysis, but that is effect of 27 to 21 extra years to digest Star Trek. You cannot blame all of the inconsistencies of Star Trek on DS9, especially as THEY where the people that established long term lore and events into Star Trek from the beginning: They've re-invented the Ferengi, Cardassian (every Cardassian post TNG The Wounded is a DS9 Cardassian!) and sculpted the Klingon culture after what was started with TNG 'The Sin of the Father's'-arc. I find this a very hard assesment of the very same people that did most to build the Star Trek universe.
Another argument about the "no sub-systems" point is that the Borg could have had sub-systems all along. It's just that the technology of Starfleet wasn't able to make heads or tails of the technology involved. Starfleet probably gained a lot of valuable intel on the inner workings of Borg technology when Picard was liberated from the Borg. Also the advancement of technology to defeat the Borg wouldn't have been limited to just weapons and defensive tech, but sensors and countermeasures would have in my mind been just as critical.
So maybe they just figured out in the intervening years how a Borg vessel works, what core systems it has and how to find them?
agreed!
That's a fair point too
It's also possible that Picard knew subconsciously from his time as Locutus that the area he was targeting was the closest &/or least protected way to get near where the Queen's Chamber was or that there was some vital piece of technology there that Starfleet was unaware of that let the Queen communicate with the hive. Destroying that area could have disrupted the link between the Queen & the rest of the cube just long enough for Starfleet's weapons to be effective.
Scrocdiddlydog that was my thought as well when the Cell is revealed. “Ah that’s why Picard made the fleet shoot there”
Maybe if you drill a deep hole into the cube with phasers then fill it with salvo upon salvo of photon and quantum torpedoes, there would be so much planet-nuking explosives bottled up in there that redundant subsystems and internal forcefields don’t matter.
Imagine a fleet of defiant class ships like the way Babylon 5 showed the white stars
I’d love to see assimilated vorlon tech
@@simonwillis1529 that's a scary thought.... now comes the argument of the borg can assimilate vorlon tech or shadow tech
@@jasonsylvander3089
Borg had issues assimilating Undine tech which is similarly biotech, so I'd think Borg would similarly find issues assimilating Vorlons and Shadows.
well, I recall seeing at least one other Defiant-class ship as part of the federation task force at the end of "Call to Arms", so there were clearly more out there, and not necessarily just the Sao Paolo and the Valiant
@@MercenaryPen Plus there was one in Voyager when the doctor was sent to the beta quadrant via the subspace network and they had a fight with the Romulans.
I've always interpreted the Borg subsystem issue to mean that the important systems do exist, but that they can be regenerated and reestablished elsewhere if damaged. If only 20-ish percent of the cube's volume is left, that's still enough for them to regenerate their subsystems in that remaining volume to have a functional/combat-capable if diminished ship.
Honestly, if this had been a crossover of the TNG and DS9 casts dealing with the Borg, it would've made for one hell of a movie, depending on who was sent down to assist Cochrane.
(I haven't watched the video) I think having Sisko confront Picard in the ready room would have been extremely powerful, especially for Star Trek lore.
Talk about a missed opportunity. Damn that would have been great.
The ds9 crew were busy with the dominion
La Forge and O'Brien geeking out building the Pheonix and Bashir staring into the abyss that was the near-term legacy of Eugenics.
Fuck that whole timeline subplot. Should have removed it and focus on an actual war with the Borg. More action better movies
"Luckily the Sovereign's warp engines had been upgraded to the speed of plot." LMAO!
Same thing happened to the dragons, and ships, and horses, and people in GOT.
The Sovereign had a spore drive.. sshhhh
@@MedalionDS9 psst, the guy with the black badge would like a word with you.
All ships named Enterprise have this upgrade.
Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in minutes 😂
Same with the Enterprise-A traveling to the center of the galaxy in hours in ST5, or the ST Into Darkness Enterprise warping from the Klingon homeworld back to Earth in the time it took Kirk to have a little chitchat with Khanberbatch! 😂
Why was Worf and the _Defiant_ there and not at DS9? Because Keiko O'Brian was about to have another baby, and he didn't want to have to deliver it too, that's why.
Cuz audiences who only watched TNG but not DS9 would wonder where the fuck Worf was in a movie about the TNG cast... cuz audiences are apparently stupid
Also... Sisko is the emissary and a lynch pin keeping the Bajoran's on Team Federation, despite having no official ties to the Federation. If Sisko died, StarFleet would lose the only officer with any leverage to keep Bajor on side if a situation arose that made Bajor question whose side it was on... Pesky politician's, Kai's and Vedek's have a tendency to scheme after all and Sisko's presence could keep that event from transpiring at a time when StarFleet didn't need another bush fire along it's Frontier.
@@davfree9732 Plus Sisko like Picard has history with the borg so it might make sense to keep them away in case the trauma of the past gets in the way of the battle.
lol. There's actually an even funnier answer for this that is actually canon if you check: He was off with Eddington in the badlands when the Borg invaded. It's never mentioned in the episode or anything but the timeline does literally put him in a shuffle craft out of communication range. Still sad they couldn't pay Dax & Kira for a 30 second cameo.. even MORE sad they couldn't pay O'Brian to be in the movie.. he coulda just come along with Worf.
@@BlazingOwnager O'Brien can't leave the station for more than a few days or it falls apart.
Star Trek, the Search for Spock also showed shields going up and down in sections. Which makes sense, as you would need multiple generators as to get all around coverage. Additionally, both TNG, and DS9 had episodes where various enemies could beam through shields. So makes sense that the Federation would learn from that.
There's been an uneven use of shield in Trek between series, and in series'...sometimes shields are treated as a contiguous "bubble" around the ship, and other times they treated as discrete segments that form an entire shield, or both at the same time.
It makes sense to me that they have a segmented shield system that works together to form an overall "bubble"/grid, but that various shield generators can get overloaded ("Number 4 shield is collapsing" or "ventral shields are reduced 50%") and that the tech progresses to where a particular shield "segment" can be reinforced or dropped as needed.
2:35: THATS OBVIOUS?!?
THAT'S INHUMANE AS HECK!
Let's destroy that theory, so in season 4 of ds9 we find out in episode 1 that they can't beam truth the shield so this upgrade has to be between Season 4 and First contact so far your upgrade timeline works in voyager the wounded we find out the can beam truth the shield that's post season 4 so so far so good but wait a minute voyager has not had federation contact after this upgrade took place so that would leave us with a plot hole again, now this is the simple version there are plenty of times in TNG they beam truth the shields as well, the reality is writing is just horribly inconstant about it and sure we can solve it by inventing upgrades to shields and transports until we get to a functional timeline, but really it seems more likely that the writers just screw this up as they sometimes need the transfer of people to be hard between ships and sometimes they don't care.
I think the subsystems issue actually makes sense if you think about it like this: subsystems existing makes sense in itself but with multiple redundancies so that if even all but 1 is destroyed, the system still operates. Think of it as having a thousand propulsion blocks all allowing the cube to move, take out 900 of them and it can still move.
If we assume its systems work like this, which would make more sense then them simply operating out of the ether as their introduction in the series implies, then having them get the focus would make sense, but it would also make sense that Picard would realise which ones would, due to the damage sustained by the cube by that point, be able to cause the whole thing to collapse if they where taken out at once. A seemingly indestructible foundation that showed cracks, and had a hammer applied at just the right spot, and where you once had a tower that seemed indestructible you now have a house of cards. It's the exact type of oversight a species like the Borg would be expected to make when designing such a system, as they'd never assume someone could cause such a cascade failure to begin with due to the nature of combating the Borg.
I agree - due to the damage the Cube had already sustained it's normal redundancies were strained to a near-breaking point. And Picard, due to his link with the Borg, knew exactly where they were most vulnerable at that particular time.
Exactly how I see it. Absolute redundancy, zero centralization, means that those independent systems would have to be designed in a way that operations are cascading or emergent; the operation of each individual component resulting in a positive feedback loop from which emerges operations as a whole. This being the case, if you want to destroy the whole, you need to affect a positive feedback loop amongst a local cluster of components that will cascade to the rest of the components resulting in the destruction of the whole. I think this is what Picard was after and I also think he knew it would work based on his insight into the Borg.
RE: Borg subsystems... On reflection, the dialogue from the original "Q Who?" episode is a bit more ambiguous than I'd first thought. Data says he can't find *identifiable* things like a bridge or an engineering section aboard the Borg ship. That doesn't mean the ship completely lacks things that would perform those functions, just that the cube is so thoroughly unlike anything Data or the _Enterprise's_ computer were familiar with that they had no idea what they were looking at.
Of course, he also says he can't identify any life forms aboard either, despite the thing being packed to the brim with drones and cute little baby borg who are nowhere close to being fully integrated, so it's possible the _Enterprise's_ sensors were just overwhelmed or jammed, and reported gibberish instead of anything useful. Either way, "Best of Both Worlds" showed that the Borg _did_ use subsystems, because the away team started blowing up very specific power nodes to force the cube to stop and fix the damage, thereby buying time for Commander Shelby's magic deflector-dish weapon to fail and doom the fleet at Wolf 359.
The borg use decentralised design, like a block of apartments everywhere has similar look to it, most sections of the ship are simply general purpose rooms with maybe a big redundant power conduit system deep inside. When they routed power passed the damage they concentrated it in a basic area of the ship and the Feds knew exactly where so they fired on that area.
Best of Both Worlds: Borg forget to bring Norton Antivirus.
I get the joke !
Norton would not help the Borg. To many instances of the program treating legal downloads as viruses in it's early days. The program that controls the Borg subsystem would be treated as a virus and turned off by Norton.
Endgame: Norton bugs out and detects the queen as a virus.
Then along came McAfee...
All good but one must remember you can't have a good storyline without a plot/hole in the Armor.
Regarding how the Borg managed to beam on board:
The transport was from the Sphere to the Enterprise when both ships already were in the past. The Enterprise's shield probably went down when they arrived in the past.
Apart from that, I would not at all be surprised if the Borg of all races had the ability to beam through shields. They are after all able to neutralize any other form of energy, so why not shields too.
I think the movie suggest that its that temporal displacement that causes the shield to get knocked out, but yeah, it is the Borg after all.
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is.
Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though.
It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that.
This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
its stated ver batum that the shields, long range sensors and communications systems were offline directly after exciting the apeture of the temporal portal.
The Defiant was called by its name by Riker . Why would it be a different ship. Obviously worf was commanding it because he took it out on a spin from ds9 when the Borg attacked and there was no time to pick up Sisko before engaging the Borg
Or Sisko was told to keep away for similar reasons as Picard was.
Also the hull markings clearly read as USS Defiant. So Dialog and screen says it's not the Sao Paulo.
2:35: THATS OBVIOUS?!?
THAT'S INHUMANE AS HECK!
Then again, Worf has a lot of experience fighting the Borg. Also, Starfleet likely wanted Sisko at DS9 in case the Dominion caught wind of the battle and tried to make a movie. And maybe that's exactly why the Dominion War started when it did.
There's also the fact that Sao Paulo was a freshly commissioned ship at the time it was given to Sisko and renamed Defiant, IIRC. She's either still under construction or not yet started at this point in time.
Think much of the damage results from the participation of the Millenium Falcon and its experience in blewing up huge spaceballs ;P
Na.. Palpatine just hit everything with a Force Lightning Storm blast again
Unfortunately spaceballs simply have little crossover to space cubes.... entirely different animals.
Han: These people are out of their league, Chewie. Let's find the exhaust port and show'em how it's done.
Chewie: *Chewie noises*
You're all wrong. It was obi wan kenobi using the force telling Picard where to hit the cube. That's why he was hearing voices. He only thought that it was the Borg because nobody he has never heard of the force and assumed that it was the Borg. That's why when they went back in time, there wasn't a voice to warn him about the Borg on the Enterprise because kenobi didn't go back in time with them.
I can imagine that each picket line was made up of diverse ships, some old, some new to make each one as effective as possible. Seeing a handful of Oberth and Miranda as well as the new classes Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre, Defiant, Norway etc. makes sense.
I would hazard a guess that earlier picket lines had more Galaxy, Nebula, Excelsior, Freedom, New Orleans, etc., and fewer of the newer classes for more balance and that is why we do not see them.
Wasn't there a limited number of Galaxy class ships? Or was that changed?
I think most likely the newer and larger ships were destroyed in front lines. It's only logical to have the Galaxy class and ships were constantly attacking and taking the most damage. Then the weaker ships can swoop in for the attack once the cube becomes weaker. With every retreat back down the line there wouldn't be any left once the fleet reached sector 001.
They we're supposed to get new ships on Tuesday.
@@CurtisWT The Dominion War saw the Federation use the Galaxy Class as Battlecruisers/Battleships in "Galaxy Wings."
Given the proximity of First Contact to those events in the timeline, it's safe to assume that at least a lion's share of those vessels are already in service by this time since the Starfleet couldn't construct and crew them overnight and there's a limit to the Federation's starship construction berthings.
Andrew King pretty sure the next generation tech manual said their were only 12 built or something of the like.
The other reason for smaller ships was - less crew lost and multiple tracking targets for the Borg.
Most of the ships shown were the refit combat variants, they even show the Tacitcal Variant of the Nebula class, although they dont make the spectacle of its upper torpedo bay as it should have been.
Could you imagine jadzia being in the movie? I think she would have been a great addition
Regarding the 'no essential systems there' targeting location, I've always thought it was something more like this.
Picard knows the layout of Borg Cubes probably better than anyone but Seven of Nine. I figure he had a quick sensor sweep run over the cube, not to look inside, but to find a spot where there was already a fair bit of damage along a path that would cause numerous power nodules to be destroyed all at once if the whole fleet fired on it.
Since you can see inside a cube from the outside, it stands to reason that the vessel is likely at least partially held together by structural integrity fields or something similar, in order to facilitate rapid repair via replicators, nanites, and drones.
But if you caused enough of a power fluctuation all at once, you may destabilize the integrity fields. With all the damage it had already been taking on all facings, those fields were likely a primary source of structure at that time, until repairs could progress further.
With so much firepower being poured basically straight down one of those borg hallways where away teams were always shooting glowies in the ceiling, it's not beyond belief that for an instant, the structural integrity fields failed, and since the cube had sustained so much damage already, and was moving under power and fighting, it tore itself apart.
Thus, it's a tactic that while possibly repeatable, unlike having data put them to sleep, it requires extensive setup and knowledge of the layout of the ship along with a degree of understanding of how said ship actually functions.
All things Picard had at that exact moment. The right person there at the right moment to best make use of his abilities.
I don't know if someone has mentioned it but watching the footage, just before it cuts to the inside of the Defiant you see a Borg beam hit the starboard side of the ship. That might be what knocked out weapons and shields. They already had massive damage on that side.
This makes me want to rewatch these films and enjoy the glory days of ST.
I think it's mentioned why the Enterprise's shields were down. After going back in time, the rift they traveled through caused the shields to be temporarily knocked out. This was for no more than a few minutes before they were restored but it was enough to get some of the drones from the sphere over before the sphere was destroyed.
Did you miss that the Defiant took a hit AFTER its strafing run?
Videos like this are why your channel continues to grow, while channels that are 90% live streaming and superchat driven are stagnating. Kudos for keeping the mix fresh and the content well researched, thoughtful and interesting 👍
What I'm hearing is that the Borg realized that Starfleet has plot armor and they are attempting to assimilate that.
If the Borg win the series is suddenly set on a sphere getting into shenanigans.
The Federation also changed up their tactics. During Wolf 359, Starfleet set up a "battle line" where ships would fly in one at a time. The idea was to fly in, hit a few times, and retreat. They woefully underestimated the Borg's sheer firepower though. You see ships being picked off one by one, often before they are even able to get off a shot. Here, they are *swarming* the cube. In conjunction with their improved weapons and shields, it's a tactic that proves its effectiveness.
Also in regards to the Defiant, there is dialogue in DS9 that indicates the Defiant was actually there. Granted they are throwaway lines, but they do talk about the ship being repaired before it can come back to the station.
Actually, from the footage in the premiere of DS9, you can see, at Wolf 359, the federation battle lines were 3 ships at a time. And the Borg quickly adapted to their shield frequencies, and were killing off vessels with one shot each. Admiral Hansen was an idiot for thinking that was a viable strategy.
The only real advancements the UFP made were better shield/phaser frequency modulation, and better combat tactics against a single ship.
I was watching that battle, and hoped that the cube would break up into smaller cubes, and really throw Starfleet for a loop. And I thought that was the case when the sphere launched. And from that point on, it was a disappointing Borg story, decent Star Trek story.
If they had even smaller fighters like other franchises, they could have done even more focused attacks at key areas.
Alternate explanation for Starfleet's victory: The cube was just a delivery system for the time-travel sphere. It soaks up the damage from the Starfleet ships so that the sphere can get to Earth undamaged.
Why didn’t the sphere just go back in time outside federation space and then calmly stroll to earth in the 21st century has always been lost to me.
@@JackPonissi In TOS the time travel method was a warp-driven slingshot orbit around the sun. The Borg method may require proximity to a destination planet in order to navigate the quantum fluctuations to find the desired era.
(Translation: Beats the heck out of me.)
0:57 Seeing the Defiant get involved like that was a joy, I can say that much.
Ryker to Worf "she's a tough "little" ship", one of my favorite lines.
Good video Lore! I like your social commentary on your videos.
"WE ARE THE BORG!"
That audio gets in the head.
First Contact is one of my favorite Star Trek movies and one of the best.
I always thought that the Borg in this variation were actually Borg from the future, come back in time, using time travel technology from assimilated future Janeway. This is what changes the timeline to give us Enterprise and then Discovery. So therefore Discovery is technically all Janeway's fault.
No.
Lore Reloaded is on a ROLL during lockdown 2020 good work bud!!!😁👍
I'm just glad Han and Chewie made it out okay.
The beaming aboard of Defiant survivors, with the shields up, was done using the newest tech and like mentioned the New shield grid system. This shield grid system is used in star trek online as well. I can lower 1 of the 6 quadrants of the shields in that game.
Also the new shield system allows for transferring the power from one shield to another. Meaning you could lose the forward shield and still transfer power from the rear and side shields to the forward shield to bring it back up quicker, while weakening the other shields. Also it means you have more shield generators and more shield capacity than you had with the old shield systems of dorsal and ventral sheilding.
NB : If I remember correctly the shield systems used to be top and bottom / fore and aft Generated off a pair of generators. Meaning that the fore shields had one generator and the aft shields had another. But these new shields for the sovereign class have 6 generators and many emitors. Giving 6 shield quadrants and they can shut off just a section for transport. It also means that they can generate shields better and faster / manipulate the shields in different configurations and frequencies over the entire grid or just a section. Anohter benefit is that the Dorsal and Ventral shielding could be extended over the ship at one frequency while the other shields could be used on a stronger frequency to defeat the borg adaptive beams.
In The Origional Series... I think there is an episode where they have a Transporter beam in effect as the shields go up... It basically blows the transporter circuits to hell and kills the people being transported. This was because the transporter interacted with the shields and bounced back on itself, instead of proceeding to the expected destination.
@8:45 "When we look at a map of the universe" - shows a map of the GALAXY - Universe contains all GALAXIES - we live in the Milky Way GALAXY, which is where Star Trek takes place...
Which, for all intents and purposes, is the canonized UNIVERSE of the Star Trek Franchise...
Andrew King sure, but when referring to a map of the galaxy, we don’t call it a map of the universe. That implies it’s the whole universe.
The scene where we see Worf and the weapons are found to be offline is directly after we see the Defiant do a strafing run and use it's weapons, yes, but right at the end of that strafing run, it takes a direct hit by the Borgs main weapon. Judging from the outer hull damage we had seen on the Defiant during that strafing run, it's likely their shields were already down from previous attacks, and so it withstood a direct hit without shields. It's ablative armor is likely why it wasn't destroyed outright, but it losing so many critical systems, including weapons, is very understandable considering the potency of the Borg weapons.
8:58 Lore Reloaded would be excellent at CinemaSins.
Ding!
This is my all time favourite trek movie 🖤👍🏻😎 Especially when Troi is Pissed ! 🍻🍻
People often forget both 7 of 9 and Picard can still hear the collective .
Sure
|
Including millions of others who were cut from the collective.
@@SKINWALKER
Thats a good news to me, so that Starfleet knows what to do next vs the Borg
I never thought that the complete decentralization of Borg systems made any sense. Sure, their command systems are distributed, but certain things, such as propulsion would certainly need to have at least some centralization, in order to function sensibly. This in turn would require centralized power supplies and conduits. Having an individual power generator and thruster for each drone would not work.
Indeed and the idea that causing the right failure at the wrong time could cause a power grid to suffer a catastrophic cascading failure isn't unheard of we have several examples of several thousand square kilometers of our highly redundant power grid go bye bye. This one for example www.power-grid.com/content/dam/elp/site-images/Satellite%20image.png that makes a rather large black hole in an image the size of a continent.
Less each drone, more each ship.
A cube in not built - it is formed of dozens of assimilated vessels
It was the defiant. Picard later orders the transporter room to "beam the defiant survivors aboard".
That was NOT the Sao Paolo... they clearly called it the Defiant... twice
I agree
I also agree. The São Paulo was renamed Defiant before it ever entered any battle, but even so, the Battle of Sector 001 predates the original Defiant’s destruction by several years. The São Paulo likely wouldn’t have even been built at this point.
@@mb2000 We don't know the Sao Paolo's commission date, but it wasn't renamed Defiant till basically the last days of the Dominion War which was years after First Contact
7:39 you see the name on the ship
First Contact, Stardate: 50893.5, clearly takes place in DS9's 5th season. In the 5th season episode "In Purgatory's Shadow" Sisko references the events of First Contact, two years before the destruction of the Defiant and the renaming of the São Paulo. I wish the Defiant had been destroyed, but at least the Dominion achieved that victory.
I'm sure others have or will say it too but, you mentioned how the Defiant fired with weapons down. In the clip, she took one last hit before we cut to Worf, but after her final shots were fired. So that last hit may have been the final straw that broke her. She'd clearly already taken damage, so it's not that unfeasible that it only needed a little more to disable her.
As for the subsystems, I'd argue that any vessel will have points of failure. We saw this in the distribution nodes in TNG. You take out a few in the right spot, and systems are disrupted for a time. This actually makes sense to me even on a ship that has no defined area. If you pick the right spot and cut the right lines, eventually you'll find the flow of energy disrupted enough to cause a problem or two. I could see the Borg deciding to clear this minor glitch before moving forward, hence what we see in TNG.
Further, if the Borg use anti-matter or some other volatile form of power, no amount of decentralization can stop that core from being a bomb an enemy can exploit if they can get to it. And depending on the tech, it may have to be big enough to be a threat to the ship to provide enough power, but it can't be miniaturized to spread them throughout the ship. or, maybe they are, but they're still sunk deep to prevent an enemy from hitting any of them before the ship can adapt. Picard may have directed the barrage onto a point that would be easier to bore through for one reason or another, or would hit the right collection of power cores to cause the chain reaction we see claim the ship. For one thing, if the Borg use physical torpedoes like Starfleet does, any small magazine could potentially be set off by an exploding power core, and thus the chain reaction grows.
I love these break downs! As a sci-fi writer myself, I love doing this kind of deep thinking about things. Really makes creating fun!
The oberth jokes are always funny man hahahah
Wow! Best video yet sir. Thank you!
I'm surprised that they only fought with ships. Wouldn't Earth have a shitload of orbital defense platforms like the Cardassians?
Also why didn't the Federation make better use of anti-matter. As formidable as they were the Borg and their ships were made of matter. Since the Federation ships could penetrate their shields why not instead of photon or even quantum torpedoes why rig up some remotely controlled some warp nacelles to ram the cube at warp 9 with humongous amounts of anti-matter as their warheads!!!! The cube would be vaporized !!!💥💥💥💥💥💥💥👍‼️
@@LSOK38 The defiant has an anti matter pod on the front of it, when it tried to ram the cube the cube destroyed it's engines. Also when the Borg know something is in front of them they can concentrate power forward as Seven explains about the huge structural integrity field theBorg use during transwarp.
4:30 And that wonderful maneuverability; it's almost inertia-less the way it stops and swings around like that.
"Speed of plot" you missed the perfect opportunity to say "Fortunately, the Soverign's warp drive could travel at Warp 9.plot". So disappointed.
Also, because the writers didn't plan out technology and technological advancement that could happen over consequtive series, 9.995 (iirc, that's the Soverigns warp speed) is monumentally faster than 9.975.
I remember reading somewhere that it can cut a journey of weeks down to days, if not hours.
the chart i use for my star trek sim doesn't have warp 9.975 on it but the difference between warp 9.99 and warp 9.9999 is insanely high. 7,912c compared to 199,516c. a 20LY trip would take 22hrs at warp 9.99 and 53 minutes at warp 9.9999..
Still a nice line ....
My headcanon for the subsystems thing is that yes, the borg have multiple - even dozens of redundant and backup systems spread across the entire ship that could be switched to and used to adapt to changing situations.
That doesn't necessarily mean that the ship doesn't have power nodes, relays, shield generators etc - just that there are dozens of backup and failsafes in place.
However the Cube in this fight had already taken massive amounts of damage - and they were reading "fluctuations in the power grid". In my head, thats because the borg were having to switch between multiple redundant systems to keep the cube running.
Picard, with his inate knowledge of borg ships, recognises the pattern of the fluctuations and realises that if he focuses firepower on one vital redundant power relay - the redundant systems will fail, leading to a cascade power overload across the rest of the ship.
A few notes; The Defiant was a prototype, along with a few other ships, but it was expressed in DS9 that they never really were functional as they tended to tear themselves apart. It’s likely they were never put into mass production, at least until O’Brien managed to fix the Defiant. Being that this was just before this Borg attack, it’s unlikely the Federation had many functional Defiant class ready.
Additionally the Borg had already broken through the Federations first lines of defence as indicated in the comm channel they listened to. It’s likely the hardest hitting options would have been there, such as any operational Defiance class vessels and other Sovereign class ships.
I suspect the Defiant was probably recalled to Earth immediately upon the detection of the cube, and likely didn’t have time to join the fleet in the initial contacts. I believe what we are seeing in First Contact is the last lines, ships probably fast tracked out of space dock, ships that could get to Earth in time, etc. I feel the Federation felt they could eliminate. Cube long before it got this far and thus didn’t recall the entirety of the fleet. No doubt Sisko, for example is on DS9 in case the Dominion took advantage, in the same way Picard was supposed to guard against Romulan exploitation.
My biggest issue with this particular moment is the complete lack of orbital defenses around Earth itself. I know they said they broke the Mars or Jupiter defence field but I would still expect important Federation worlds like Earth and Vulcan to have some sort of protection.
Something we do know about the USS Defiant is that it was also equipped with Ablative armor so that might be why it was able to take such a battering from the Borg cube for as long as it did because it had stronger hull armor and it took longer for it lose power
Starfleet started weapons before wolf 359, the weapon programs started just after first contact with the Borg was made. It was stated just before wolf 359 that they thought they had more time and the new weapons were still two years away.
The novelization of the movie explains why Picard targeted that point on the Cube. What's indistinct on screen in the novel is actually Picard hearing the Borg say that shields on that section of the cube had been critically damaged and needed to be regenerated ASAP. When they fleet opened fire on that section they blew right through the weakened shields allowing their weapons to begin exploding inside the ship and the interior of Borg ships has a lot of hollow spaces allowing damage to spread rapidly hence why after a few seconds of fire the Cube exploded once the shields and outer armor were breached by the Federation weapons.
I think you can interpret the non essential borg cube target an easier way.
Maybe data just meant that it didn't seem to be as active as the rest of the cube, perhaps from damage (it did already have a hole in it) and so it seemed power was low in that section.
It doesn't mean a subsystem was vulnerable in Datas view, it just meant that that particular part of the cube seemed out of commission already.
The Battle of Sector 001 was a confrontation between the United Federation of Planets and the Borg Collective in 2373.
The USS Sao Paulo was launched from the Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards in late-2375, on stardate 52889.3.
For the type of vessels in the battle... the Federation's vessels are modular in nature. They can probably rip out all the segments not related to combat, insert new segments forced on offensive technology and tactical systems. So its possible that every ship there is as armed to the gills as possible.
0:37 That reveal is just 👍👍
If it wasnt for the USS pimphand, Starfleet would've lost
If the Defiant is the pimphand, then the Enterprise is the Saturday night special in it's pocket.
It’s a set of guns strapped to an engine.
With a Bridge and Crew Quarters somehow crammed inbetween.
I just rewatched whole DS9 and i can't believe how bad this Show is.
Episodes literally start with Klingons making out. Just an example though.
It's just a bad Representation of War, and Peace, and all that.
This Channel analysis it, and it doesnt even do bad at that, but heck, the Show Writers for sure don't know any of this Stuff that gets discussed on this Channel - get what i mean?
2:35: THATS OBVIOUS?!?
THAT'S INHUMANE AS HECK!
in order to do some damage to the borg cube was the torpedoes and quantum torpedoes had to change their frequencies upon hitting the borg hull. Also shield modulation had to be changed 50 times per minute...before the borgs weapons hitting the ships hull, cause the borg can adapt quickly in penetrating the fleets hull and finding a weakness
In 2003, I served as Navigator on the Wasp-Class assault ship USS BATAAN (LHD 5). One quiet afternoon in the Virginia Capes operating area, I was on the bridge and my captain was in his chair on the bridge's port side. I looked out the starboard side windows and saw a very unique silhouette on the horizon, the aircraft carrier USS ENTERPRISE (CVN 65). I crossed the bridge to where my captain was sitting and told him as I pointed to starboard, "Sir, I've been waiting my entire career to say this. Captain, it's the ENTERPRISE!!!" He just looked at me, smiled, and said "Thanks Gator!"
I like the scene on the defiant. Instead of give into desperation and lose hope, Wolf activated klingon mode, shows his teeth and let morale recover.
The way I always saw the "no critical systems" was due to how I believe the borg assemble their ships. By assimilating other vessels and welding them together. By doing this, the many minor systems (and lack of central systems) would be seemingly random. That would mean there would be "gaps" where there would be no power cores, no central plexus, no thrusters, etc. Just stuff like alcoves and assimilation chambers. Because of this, I reasoned Picard predicted less shielding in those areas and figured putting enough firepower in that one spot would "overflow" into the actually important things. Not sure how the large explosion resulted, but I guess those quantum torpedoes had movie-magic warheads.
The answer to how the Enterprise arrived in time was their location along the Neutral Zone. Starfleet engaged the Borg near the Typhon expanse bordering the Romulan Neutral Zone. They embarked in a running battle assumingly falling back to various picket lines then re-engaging the cube. It's not unreasonable to believe that the Enterprise could catch up at Maximum Warp considering the stop-start nature of the battle and their proximity to said battle.
It makes sense that a ship to ship transport uses a secure commlink to communicate the needed frequencies to allow beaming through shields, as in Generations we learn shields can be bypassed just by know the shield modulation frequency & in Wrath of Kahn where each ship has a remote command code which can drop shields.
Transporters can get through shields, if they are sent through in sync with shield modulation. You can beam through your own shields whenever you want, but you have to know your enemy's shield modulation to synchronize with it.
People often criticize "ramming" in space but don't really realize how much energy you can get out of mass x velocity. Full Impulse is actually pretty fast, imagine a rail gun that fired a projectile the mass of the defiant.
Also Sisko was in the Badlands of Eddington at the time of First Contact.
lets not forget the large tanks of antimatter as well.
ship are basically system destroying doomsday weapons
For clarification on the statement at around 10:47 or so, the trip through the temporal anomaly had disrupted the shields, that's how the Borg were able to escape the sphere onto the lower decks of the Enterprise.
About the "vital system" argument. I believe you all got it wrong. Borg don't have vital systems, or designated engineering or bridge. But as the ship suffer more and more damage. Some couplings are knocked out, and they need to reroute the power to other relays. So Picard heard them, so he could catch them in the middle of repairing one of such relay/conduit whatever and blowing them in the right moment would cause chain reaction. Or he targeted the overloaded coupling, that due to damage of other sections of the cube, operated at its "red line". Either way, it was not a design flaw in borg ship, or change in borg technology. It is rather an opportunity, of which Picard took advantage of.
WRT Borg subsystems, the initial 'all of the ship are all of the subsystems' is an observation made by the away team during their initial encounter, not something Q or the Borg themselves state or confirm. And even by Best of Both Worlds, that idea is discarded as they do identify a network subsystem to attack and force the Borg to 'stop and scratch an itch.' Now extrapolate that to the Borg cube worn down by days of fighting such that the outer hull is heavily compromised... and where Picard's connection allowed him to eavesdrop on the Borg worrying over a subsystem that could destroy the entire cube if it took too much damage...
11:44 I like how you embiggen Star Fleet, it's technology and tactics to do damage to the borg and then in the next metaphorical breath indicate that the assimilation of Federation officers weakened the Borg in some way. Of course the Borg had subsystems but they were decentralised, mostly, which would indicate that each system would have backups in a different location. The explanation why this cube had a weakness was in the gaping sphincter of an anus for the Borg Sphere. All the systems that would ordinarily be present in that side of the cube would not be present in the modification, hence a weakness.
It then comes down to tactics and with Borg Queen presented a hitherto unknown singularity into the equation. Borg queen expected and planned for the destruction of the cube, a plan B. Plan B was activated as Plan A blew up. They went back in time to an easier time. Plot armour for Enterprise E allowed it to follow in the sphere's wake and you got the movie.
Not sure if you consider the First Contact Book Cannon Material....but Picard still had a connection to the Borg, he wasn't targeting a specific system, but something being regenerated in the Cube, that when attacked would cause a cascade of internal damage to the Borg Cube....according to the book....its like intentionally shorting out a surge protector and destroying everything plugged into it in the process.
I read somewhere that Picard targeted a waste disposal recycling system on the Borg Cube, igniting it, causing the cube to blow up from the inside. Not technically a 'sub system' but the borg cube does a corner where all the poo goes. Data, wouldn't think that function of the ship would be anything vital.... but it is combustible. It was located deep inside the cube, requiring almost every ship to drill into it with weapons fire.
That was a joke from berman on an aol ama
My issue with Star Trek battles is all the ships are loaded with large numbers of phaser arrays, but you rarely if ever see them use more than a single phaser at once, and normally fire a brief shot and the stop firing. With the specific battle being discussed, why does it take Picard to tell the fleet to concentrate fire on a specific location? Sure they didn’t know which point would cause the most damage, but surely a single area on each side of the cube having deep holes blasted into it than random damage across the outer hull.
Also worth noting that the Defiant also had it's warhead module, which assuming they didn't use the torpedoes that are contained in said module, which is likely why Worf called for Ramming speed. Would've been very much great to see the Warhead module in action
The defiant also has a stupidly large warhead in the front of the ship close to the navigation deflector
Question, why, between after the aftermath, did not build more anti-Borg vessels, such as more Defiant class vessels?
Allow me to educate you on shield tech, "If you know the frequency of your own shield's, then you can beam through it". That's why modulating and rotating shield frequencies is so important. The transporter chief can see and monitor the shield modulations in real time and knows the pattern of the rotation "It's not actually random like people think, it's just a very complicated algorithm that is designed to look random to an enemy ship." So the transporter is simply set to the same algorithm, so you can port through it safely"... This isn't something they knew right away, they learned it over time... Probably around the same time they learned to transport at warp speeds...
Assimilation of the strengths followed by the weaknesses sounds possible.
Also I do agree that it look like the Borg ship was hit so many times as it shows the Federation been hitting the Borg ship so many times that they might have drain the regenerative strength of the Borg cube.
The scene of Picard pinpointing the ship vital system, made me think the possibility that the federation's ship scanners was improved to be able to detect a lot of strong vital systems and i think because the Federation star ships been hitting those strong points so many times it drain the Borg cube's ability to adapt as they keep focus on repairs just to keep the cube to last long enough to reach their objective :3
Anyway, the other part i thought about when the moment Picard pinpointed the Cube's weakness, and i thought as well that moment tells me that the Borg must have had adapted a diversion tactic against stronger advance civilizations with advance weapons and scanning technology, by hiding a vital point of their ship to systems that do not appear of any vital system, that way they could avoid full damage to the Borg ship and using that weak appearing sub vital system to buy time to both repair and adapt and likely had used that more then once on countless other species they assimilated to the collective.
It's just my thought of the possibility as i'm no real expert on the topic and it likely could be very different from what i know.
Anyway i at least enjoyed the movie and i wish anyone that reads a good day or better and take care and stay safe out there, plus go in peace with longevity.
The older ships were likely there as they were what Starfleet had in the area. I'm pretty sure every functional shipt hat could get there was dispatched, those who couldn't get there were dispatched to other areas to guard in case the Borg would try and attack other worlds.. Or deployed around Dominion space in case war broke out.
They weren't the best ships to fight the Borg (or fight in the first place). They were the ships that Starfleet had available.
Ramming speed isn’t really about causing kinetic damage. The bulk of the damage would result form the catastrophic release of the Defiant’s antimatter stores.
I know how the borg managed to get onto the enterprise. We see that picard still has access to the borgs thoughts and thats how he knew where its weakness was in the cube. However as we learned back in best of both worlds and voyager, it's not possible to separate a borg from the collective entirely once assimilated and the concious thoughts go both ways. As such when picard beamed the survivors off the defiant, the borg quietly beamed over to the enterprise at the exact same time as they had access to the sheild modulations for that precise moment to allow for intra sheild beaming as picard would have to know what they were. It's essentially the same tactic lursa and betor used to slice through the enterprise sheilds in generations using geordie as a spy. Only now with E, the sheilds constantly change frequencies to prevent that from ever happening again... except that when your beaming through shields the modulation must remain static. So the borg knew it was going to happen, knew the modulations and also knew how to block the ship sensors from detecting them once on board, because everything picard knows, they know. This also explains how the sphere was able to survive, the queen laid a trap for picard, she let slip a weak point, picard took the bait and in the resulting explosion the sphere escaped. This explains EXACTLY WHY federation brass didn't want picard anywhere NEAR the battle, he was a horrendous liability and would aid the borg without him even knowing it. This also explains why Data alone had the access code to deactivate the self destruct , because by that point picard had figured out that he was vulnerable, and as such the borg also knew that he had figured it out which explains why they specifically captured and tortured data, and why picard lost his mind near the end....he had been the arcitech of all of this...and much like when he was locutus, he was utterly helpless to stop it.
An interesting thought, but I respectfully disagree. As you said the shield frequencies are automatically modulating, so there would be no way Picard could know the exact frequency at the moment of transport. Picard himself says they beamed to the Enterprise as they destroy the sphere because their shields were down, since the moment they exited the temporal rift the helmsman/ops guy stated that systems were offline including the shields. Picard's exact quote was: "They knew our shields were down, their vessel was doomed." So it makes more sense that's when the borg actually beamed over, as before then with their internal sensors still online prior to going through the rift they'd have detected the borg beaming over as that would be part of the countermeasures.
Good analysis. In my own headcannon, I thought the Defiant was at Earth or Utopia Planetia getting an upgrade for the upcoming Dominion conflict, with Worf and a skeleton crew supervising the work. Starfleet likely had another ship covering DS9 at the time. When the Borg attacked, Worf took the Defiant into battle. After the events of FC, the Defiant was refit, ablative armor and all, and returned to DS9.
By the time the Cube got to Earth it had fought an advanced Federation fleet in a running battle from the Typhon sector, where they made the first stand.
In the first part of the engagement you can hear Starships being destroyed and Captains asking for reinforcements.
And even after all that, the cube only had outer hull damage when it got to Earth....
@0:23 to the left side, under the Akira, you see a explosion out from the Borg cube.... and coming from that explosion, none other than the Millennium Falcon. Thanks for the assist. :)
Re: transporters throughout the series. In both Picard and Season 3 of Discovery, you see transporters operating at a much faster rate, to the point where it’s essentially instantaneous; they just “pop” into place as opposed to the more familiar “charging” sequence.
Whoa... excellent breakdown. I feel like I've gone into a time warp and got the youtube analysis that we would have gotten if youtube came out in 96 instead of 06
The borg do have subsystems though they just have multiple redundancies this was shown in TNG when they boarded the ship and shot the power nodes or whatever they were. Also the dialog indicates that the Enterprise had been traveling for quite a while before reaching the cube as earlier dialog indicated the battle was going to start quite a ways from Earth based on the sector the fleet was being mobilized in. Fact the cube was already at earth shows that it had likely been getting into fights off and on with the fleet the whole way to Earth.
The non-vital system being referenced.. is a callback to how Data defeated the Borg the last time... by accessing a low-level command for regeneration... it caused the Borg to drop their guard so the ENterprise could do its thing
Thank you, I was going to point that out.
The way I looked at the sub system thing was this. The area Picard indicated had nothing of importance. Therefore it was structurally insignificant. A good point to dig into the hull and allow the Enterprise's quantum torpedoes to detonate deeper in the hull. Possibly in a similar way to the transphasic torpedo later. Weapons like that would be far more effective detonating deep inside a relatively empty hull than they would impacting on the surface. That was always the hard part about destroying Borg ships. Most weapons wouldn't get through the outer hull. However, when we see something detonate from within... It's devastating.
Yeah... That thing about using the transporter while at warp... I do not recall one time they transported off/onto the ship while at warp. They used site to site and would beam from one place to another on the ship (in the warp bubble), but that's it.
12:55 RIP unnamed _Steamrunner_ class Starship.
Forever in our hearts.
Okay so a thought about transporting through shields, there could be a IFF system in place to allow a certain transporter beam frequency or whatever is used by that thing, to work through UFP shields only. I mention UFP ships only cause not much time difference in DS9 does Sisko needs to transport the new Cardassian civilian government aboard and he had to lower the shields and let the "new armor" take the punishment. That's when Worf suggests the rear tractor beam to deflect the Klingon disruptors.
Well thought out, Sir.
Starfleet didn't want Picard and Sisco in the battle because of the idea they would both become paralyzed from reliving their past experiences with the Borg. The area of the cube that was targeted could have been the location of the trans-warp system in this cube, Picard was able to hear some of the Borg communications, the explosion of the trans-warp system during a power up may have caused a devastating power overload. It's likely the cube was transferring power to the sphere to power the time jump.