We had that in Legion...people hated it. What we have currently is more accepted within the community. Edit: I meant gear having no influence or even minimal one.
I recall Legion did still have a power creep as people decked out in high level raiding gear had an advantage to people who did not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while there was some level of equalising factor, it wasn't a flat equalisation. As for the current status quo being accepted, I think it's more so a matter that people who used to want to try PvP just don't care anymore under the grounds the PvP community is vastly smaller as time goes on, therefore there isn't as much of an urge to iterate and add upon the system we already have.
@@williamoakleaf The advantage coming from gear maxed out at around 15% stat increase to the statpool. The average betweeen a maxed out player and a newbie was minimal (hence the naked RBG/Arena videos from that time) The biggest issue however that affected the balance were the talents from the weapon and PVP levels.
You and I would get along...I've held this view for quite a while. I think most MMOs would benefit from it. There are two PVP options: 1) PVP unranked is normalized. This allowed players to battle on an even playing field where classes are constantly tweaked and balanced to how they SHOULD play versus other classes with a rock/paper/scissors approach to classes. 2) PVP ranked is where your gear factored. This could be tried as always available or weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, etc.. Destiny 2 has a great example of this with Iron Banner.
A rock/paper/scissors approach MIGHT work. I suppose the only downside to that is when people finding themselves into a one on one -- The balance will favor one class over another as they're designed to kill that class specifically. That doesn't discount it as a cool game mode though. Perhaps some sort of custom game that changes the formula. Those are some great ideas to take inspiration on however, and if it works, Blizzard might as well do the Blizzard thing and take them, then perfect them.
I think a lot of hardcore PVPers would be upset with PVP gear in instances meaning nothing. A lot of people grind hard though PVP for that loot and they like the feel when it pays off any they can absolutely dominate people without the gear. But at the same time players that don’t PVP as often are completly helpless against these players. So maybe the idea of an equal playing field BG or Arena could be put into a separate bracket, Random, Rated, and ‘Balanced’ with the new game mode. I also like the idea of a Zombies game mode. Maybe tie it in with Scourge lore, and give it Plunderstorm-like mechanics where you collect your abilities. Scatter gold around the map that the living can collect, and the undead can collect additional lore by infecting other players. Alternatively it can be more like a BG with players having all their class abilities, but when you get infected you get turned into a ghoul with the vehicle UI they added in WoTLK with a set amount of abilities. Honor can be gained from kills, with additional honor gained from infecting players as a Zombie. You’ll also get a whole lot of honor if you’re one of the last players standing when the games time limit expires. I also like how you bring up forge and wonder if Blizzard could possibly figure out player-made game modes for BGs, Arena’s, and maybe even PVE content like dungeons, raids, and delves.
That's a actually a good idea, not gonna lie. One thing that is hard to do is getting players on board with something new that will change up the system. Adding a balanced game mode instead of removing gear entirely adds the best of both worlds, and if the balanced game mode ends up becoming more popular, they can iterate on that. And a forge mode for WoW would be utterly mind blowing. Definitely would require a lot of tools and some major time put into it. But given how rich WoW is in map diversity and gameplay mechanics, I reckon it COULD be done.
I personally don’t care about PvP gear at all. Most the MMO’s I’ve played PvP in don’t use a gear system in PvP anymore other than to acquire PvE gear through PvP. GW2 is a perfect example of this. You can use your pve gear in WvW but the queue based PvP doesn’t use pve gear but your builds and stats are all highly customizabl still.
So it's more so -- Choose your loadout sort PvP when you get into a game as opposed to gear actually giving you an advantage in instanced PvP? That tends to be a solid game design in multiplayer games that utilise PvP.
Yeah... It would be just better and nicer if it was more about the skill of the player rather than who has the best gear. Also, I'd love a "Warcraft Forge" for machinima especially.
Definitely would be good for people looking to dip their feet into PvP as well. Then at least everyone has a crack at actually making meaningful progress in it.
Also regarding a "Warcraft Forge" idea. Maybe something like that would be the Warcraft equivalent of player housing. An outright map-maker feature would be amazing.
@@williamoakleaf Maybe! But I would like to see Warcraft Forge as a separate feature from player housing too. Warcraft Forge could be nice feature on its own though!
May I introduce you to WoW Legion PvP, I loved it peronally. But the PvP'ers hated it. Something, something, no worthwhile gear progression. The ugly truth is, a lot of people don't want equality in PvP. "Owning noobs" is more fun than everyone has fighting chance.
@@Jormungrandrserpent Yeah, I've noticed that being the mentality of really hardcore PvPers. But it's also that mentality that keeps PvP from becoming a much more stronger pillar. You'd have a wider pool of players wanting to dip their feet into PvP whilst also eliminating a great deal of the 'pay for carries' market, which IMO does not do rated PvP any favors.
Yeah lets take out the last bit of rbg from pvp. No longer will you have to have fun with your newly aquired weapon or gear, it will finally be nerfed to be as good as the fully green geared guy next to you.
Having an edge over other players based on gear in a PvP setting is not a good game design. Because the power creep is unbelievably high between someone looking to try PvP compared to someone decked out in full conquest, it makes PvP a highly unapproachable piece of content to engage with. The most successful PvP games are the ones where all players are able to have a chance at winning based on sheer skill and clever usage of their mechanics.
@williamoakleaf Its an mmorpg before its anything else. If you want everything preset and completely flat and balanced, play cs or something. Noone back in the day cried because they joined a wsg first time ever and the guy decked out in full naxx gear could rail you. If anything that incentiviced people to get better and progress so they could do the same. Because progression and gear progression is a completely essential part of the game, and what makes a rpg. Even if you are looking for the flat and preset PvP experience, why would you chose an mmo, where classes notoriously hasnt and cant be balanced compared to say LoL? Hell im even somewhat agreeing in rated PvP, but unrated, really?
@marcopium9025 That kind of mentality is precisely the reason why WoW's gameplay content was utterly stale for the better part of 3 expansions. It makes sense for there to be progression in an MMORPG, of course, no one denies that. However, when it comes to the PvP side, specifically instanced, you're practically taking away from an individual's skill which contributes to whether a player is having fun or not. For new people, people who don't spend as much time on the game, or people looking to get back into PvP, gear only serves as a barrier to entry, and when one has to practically reset when switching to a new class starting with no PvP gear, they're already having to fight an uphill battle when everybody else is overly geared. This, in turn, doesn't make for a fun experience and only serves to drive people away from PvP because what is the point of playing if you don't even have a modicum of a chance? It makes sense for it in a PvE setting because, you collect the better gear to beat the strongest boss. You're not competing with anyone else to get there, and even then, it is so much more better with the new catch up systems in place. People are more happier with PvE as a result. PvE is fun because, you grinded for gear, overcoming reasonable challenges in order to beat the hardest challenge. Simple. Whereas PvP is direct competitive gameplay with other players. Getting better gear does not make sense, because if somebody can get decked out faster than you can, you're already going to progress slower, and very rarely are you going to have a chance at winning in the process, and you know that no matter how much skill you put in, so long as they have the better gear, you're gonna die for the most part. That is not fun gameplay and serves only to drive players away.
@williamoakleaf If thats the case then Riddle me this: during legion they did exactly that, they made template gear sets with preset stats and ilvl. People overwhelmingly disliked it. I dno what ghosts you are seeing, i play blitz at 2.8k and shuffle at around 2.2 atm, and people are still showing up in greens all over. The ilvl difference is less than ever between basic honor gear and conquest, let alone the blood token gear which is 3 ilvl behind conquest. That takes you no time doing some world quests to get. Thats even ignoring the fact that its quicker than ever to gear in PvP, with the catch up you cheer on pve for. And no, if you are so locked in on pure skill and taking away the last bit of rpg aspect why should pve be any different? When people join a key, make them have a template set, same with raiding. Theres an inherent unfair advantage to those who had been lucky in their vault and gotten bis trinkets, so they can get their m+ mount, title, raid ach alot easier. Im sorry, but go to some competitive PvP game that offers this, if thats what you want. But keep this mmo an mmo for whatever is left of it in pvp
![[LIVE] BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) - DRIP | 두시탈출 컬투쇼](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UG05pxLGwzc/mqdefault.jpg)
We had that in Legion...people hated it.
What we have currently is more accepted within the community.
Edit:
I meant gear having no influence or even minimal one.
I recall Legion did still have a power creep as people decked out in high level raiding gear had an advantage to people who did not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while there was some level of equalising factor, it wasn't a flat equalisation.
As for the current status quo being accepted, I think it's more so a matter that people who used to want to try PvP just don't care anymore under the grounds the PvP community is vastly smaller as time goes on, therefore there isn't as much of an urge to iterate and add upon the system we already have.
@@williamoakleaf The advantage coming from gear maxed out at around 15% stat increase to the statpool. The average betweeen a maxed out player and a newbie was minimal (hence the naked RBG/Arena videos from that time) The biggest issue however that affected the balance were the talents from the weapon and PVP levels.
You and I would get along...I've held this view for quite a while. I think most MMOs would benefit from it.
There are two PVP options:
1) PVP unranked is normalized. This allowed players to battle on an even playing field where classes are constantly tweaked and balanced to how they SHOULD play versus other classes with a rock/paper/scissors approach to classes.
2) PVP ranked is where your gear factored. This could be tried as always available or weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, etc.. Destiny 2 has a great example of this with Iron Banner.
A rock/paper/scissors approach MIGHT work. I suppose the only downside to that is when people finding themselves into a one on one -- The balance will favor one class over another as they're designed to kill that class specifically.
That doesn't discount it as a cool game mode though. Perhaps some sort of custom game that changes the formula.
Those are some great ideas to take inspiration on however, and if it works, Blizzard might as well do the Blizzard thing and take them, then perfect them.
I edited my action bars out so that you don't see me clicking.
I think a lot of hardcore PVPers would be upset with PVP gear in instances meaning nothing. A lot of people grind hard though PVP for that loot and they like the feel when it pays off any they can absolutely dominate people without the gear. But at the same time players that don’t PVP as often are completly helpless against these players. So maybe the idea of an equal playing field BG or Arena could be put into a separate bracket, Random, Rated, and ‘Balanced’ with the new game mode. I also like the idea of a Zombies game mode. Maybe tie it in with Scourge lore, and give it Plunderstorm-like mechanics where you collect your abilities. Scatter gold around the map that the living can collect, and the undead can collect additional lore by infecting other players. Alternatively it can be more like a BG with players having all their class abilities, but when you get infected you get turned into a ghoul with the vehicle UI they added in WoTLK with a set amount of abilities. Honor can be gained from kills, with additional honor gained from infecting players as a Zombie. You’ll also get a whole lot of honor if you’re one of the last players standing when the games time limit expires. I also like how you bring up forge and wonder if Blizzard could possibly figure out player-made game modes for BGs, Arena’s, and maybe even PVE content like dungeons, raids, and delves.
That's a actually a good idea, not gonna lie. One thing that is hard to do is getting players on board with something new that will change up the system. Adding a balanced game mode instead of removing gear entirely adds the best of both worlds, and if the balanced game mode ends up becoming more popular, they can iterate on that.
And a forge mode for WoW would be utterly mind blowing. Definitely would require a lot of tools and some major time put into it. But given how rich WoW is in map diversity and gameplay mechanics, I reckon it COULD be done.
biggest problem for retail pvp is balance the next biggest problem is to much flashy crap on the screen can hardly focus on a target most times.
I agree that pvp gear should be equal in instanced content.
A fellow connoisseur of the arts, I see. 🍷🥂
I personally don’t care about PvP gear at all. Most the MMO’s I’ve played PvP in don’t use a gear system in PvP anymore other than to acquire PvE gear through PvP.
GW2 is a perfect example of this. You can use your pve gear in WvW but the queue based PvP doesn’t use pve gear but your builds and stats are all highly customizabl still.
So it's more so -- Choose your loadout sort PvP when you get into a game as opposed to gear actually giving you an advantage in instanced PvP?
That tends to be a solid game design in multiplayer games that utilise PvP.
Yeah... It would be just better and nicer if it was more about the skill of the player rather than who has the best gear. Also, I'd love a "Warcraft Forge" for machinima especially.
Definitely would be good for people looking to dip their feet into PvP as well. Then at least everyone has a crack at actually making meaningful progress in it.
Also regarding a "Warcraft Forge" idea. Maybe something like that would be the Warcraft equivalent of player housing.
An outright map-maker feature would be amazing.
@@williamoakleaf Maybe! But I would like to see Warcraft Forge as a separate feature from player housing too. Warcraft Forge could be nice feature on its own though!
May I introduce you to WoW Legion PvP, I loved it peronally. But the PvP'ers hated it. Something, something, no worthwhile gear progression.
The ugly truth is, a lot of people don't want equality in PvP. "Owning noobs" is more fun than everyone has fighting chance.
@@Jormungrandrserpent Yeah, I've noticed that being the mentality of really hardcore PvPers.
But it's also that mentality that keeps PvP from becoming a much more stronger pillar. You'd have a wider pool of players wanting to dip their feet into PvP whilst also eliminating a great deal of the 'pay for carries' market, which IMO does not do rated PvP any favors.
Yeah lets take out the last bit of rbg from pvp. No longer will you have to have fun with your newly aquired weapon or gear, it will finally be nerfed to be as good as the fully green geared guy next to you.
Having an edge over other players based on gear in a PvP setting is not a good game design. Because the power creep is unbelievably high between someone looking to try PvP compared to someone decked out in full conquest, it makes PvP a highly unapproachable piece of content to engage with.
The most successful PvP games are the ones where all players are able to have a chance at winning based on sheer skill and clever usage of their mechanics.
@williamoakleaf Its an mmorpg before its anything else. If you want everything preset and completely flat and balanced, play cs or something.
Noone back in the day cried because they joined a wsg first time ever and the guy decked out in full naxx gear could rail you. If anything that incentiviced people to get better and progress so they could do the same. Because progression and gear progression is a completely essential part of the game, and what makes a rpg. Even if you are looking for the flat and preset PvP experience, why would you chose an mmo, where classes notoriously hasnt and cant be balanced compared to say LoL? Hell im even somewhat agreeing in rated PvP, but unrated, really?
@marcopium9025 That kind of mentality is precisely the reason why WoW's gameplay content was utterly stale for the better part of 3 expansions.
It makes sense for there to be progression in an MMORPG, of course, no one denies that. However, when it comes to the PvP side, specifically instanced, you're practically taking away from an individual's skill which contributes to whether a player is having fun or not. For new people, people who don't spend as much time on the game, or people looking to get back into PvP, gear only serves as a barrier to entry, and when one has to practically reset when switching to a new class starting with no PvP gear, they're already having to fight an uphill battle when everybody else is overly geared. This, in turn, doesn't make for a fun experience and only serves to drive people away from PvP because what is the point of playing if you don't even have a modicum of a chance?
It makes sense for it in a PvE setting because, you collect the better gear to beat the strongest boss. You're not competing with anyone else to get there, and even then, it is so much more better with the new catch up systems in place. People are more happier with PvE as a result. PvE is fun because, you grinded for gear, overcoming reasonable challenges in order to beat the hardest challenge. Simple.
Whereas PvP is direct competitive gameplay with other players. Getting better gear does not make sense, because if somebody can get decked out faster than you can, you're already going to progress slower, and very rarely are you going to have a chance at winning in the process, and you know that no matter how much skill you put in, so long as they have the better gear, you're gonna die for the most part. That is not fun gameplay and serves only to drive players away.
@williamoakleaf If thats the case then Riddle me this: during legion they did exactly that, they made template gear sets with preset stats and ilvl. People overwhelmingly disliked it.
I dno what ghosts you are seeing, i play blitz at 2.8k and shuffle at around 2.2 atm, and people are still showing up in greens all over. The ilvl difference is less than ever between basic honor gear and conquest, let alone the blood token gear which is 3 ilvl behind conquest. That takes you no time doing some world quests to get. Thats even ignoring the fact that its quicker than ever to gear in PvP, with the catch up you cheer on pve for.
And no, if you are so locked in on pure skill and taking away the last bit of rpg aspect why should pve be any different? When people join a key, make them have a template set, same with raiding. Theres an inherent unfair advantage to those who had been lucky in their vault and gotten bis trinkets, so they can get their m+ mount, title, raid ach alot easier.
Im sorry, but go to some competitive PvP game that offers this, if thats what you want. But keep this mmo an mmo for whatever is left of it in pvp