This is a great explanation for those of us who were born too late to experience these techniques first hand. Very inspirational. And I like your outro track too, so I listened to it twice 🙂
Ah, this takes me back to my early days. Two 7 1/2 ips tape machines on opposite sides of the room, tape supported over the backs of chairs, everyone trying desperately NOT to play too much or (heaven forfend!) make a squeak or a crackle. I still have those tapes, but nothing to play them on. I might have an MP3 conversion somewhere... Great days.
You can do this on the Strymon El Capistan sound on sound function. It’s a fantastic tool. I have a Sustainiac pick up and so you can swell in infinite notes with a volume pedal. Pick a chord and keep swelling individual notes of that chord over a 30 second loop. The tape age and wow and flutter knobs can be adjusted to control the degradation. I love the off the cuff originality of it. Highly recommended if you want to do this but don’t have the patience to play with real tape machines
Hi, I didn't realise this was possible! As it was greyed out I thought Ableton just wouldn't allow it hence the return track, but yes if you right click and "enable send" there it is! That would have definitely made it simpler, thanks for the top tip! 🙏
ddfeeding in chains like this is great, but you really ought to try it with the Looper device instead - you can just set it to record like 32bars, and then change the pitch from there. Also, I would be remiss if I didnt mention that beat repeat and shifter rule in feedback chains like this!
Hi there, thanks for the input! 👍 I kept away from Looper for this vid because I wanted to go as "generic" as possible - works in any DAW. I didn't realise you could tap the insert of the Looper (just found out!) and so add effects into the decaying loop - that changes everything - probably have to make a video exploring that! Yes, Beat Repeat is endless fun, I use it in a lot of my music, thanks again! 🙌🎶
Liked & Subbed.Got my 1st Akai Sound on sound reel to reel in 1972.I could smell the motor,when I started typing.Played with a High-school friend for over 50 years.We went to 4-Tracks,then DAWs.Had the Gibson Digital Echoplex.That was Amazing,you could MIDI Sync it with a drum machine.Lost what you recorded when you turned it off though.Then the RC-50,300 and now have the RC-600.I'm going to set up a patch like you showed. You put a Lot of work into this video. Definely Appreciated. GoodTimes....👍👍
Nice! I don’t have any hardware like that but I’ve loved frippertronics for quite a few years and just got Ableton a few weeks ago. Time to break out Fripp’s version of Silent Night very soon.
Hi, yes I think there are a few VST delays out there with longer delay times, but I had trouble finding anything I liked that was reasonably priced which is why I started to chain the stock plugins, thanks for watching! 👍
@ I did! You could easily spend hours and hours noodling away. I also had the opportunity to se Mr. Fripp himself demonstrating his techniques in one of our lecture halls. This would have been ‘82 or so.
i have a vst called ellotronix xl that has like an absolutely massive delay.. its old though and i have been having a hard time finding a delay that even comes close in the modern era but it has 2 lines in an out both go well over 30 seconds. but theyre a little buggy and imperfect but tthats probably part of the charm
Hi, yes there are surprisingly few modern VSTs with long delays, but now I use this chained plugin technique I've stopped looking! Thanks for watching! 👍🎶
@@whirrings for some reason I was under the impression that chaining delay vst didn't work in the way shown in the video but I tried it and it does which is interesting. so good tip. FL studio does not let you route send tracks back to their inputs unfortunately so Ableton has a one up on FL studio there
@@Vingul I have it backed up to like three drives since it's so old and I never wanna lose it. I may do a video explaining how I use it since it's not immediately straight forward
a vst like that boss hardware would be cool. I've tried some similar plugins but they always seem to be so janky and crash daws. I'm surprised they aren't more popular
This is fantastic thank you for the detailed explanation of it all. Have you experimented with the MARK BACK functionality? Bet you would find it useful. Hoping you could explain how this works.
I'd not noticed the Mark Set/Back function before, it's like setting an undo point you can return too, could be pretty useful, I'll definitely have a play with that, many thanks! 👍🎶
Thank you, Mark, very interesting - I love the whole Frippertronic / ambient type of music and sound. I did go through my various delay plugins and found that the Valhalla Delay has a maximum 20 second delay time, which is nice, whereas all the others are either 1, 5, or 8 seconds. I use Cubase Pro 14 as my DAW, but there doesn't seem to be a way to create the feedback loop you demonstrated in Ableton. I think Cubase has some built-in protection against tracks feeding back into themselves, but maybe someone else here knows how to get around that without constantly having to bounce out loops to audio tracks. Anyway, great info, as always, and all the best to you from here 🙂
Hi Nigel, yes it's surprising if Cubase can't do this, someone reported the same issue in Fruity Studio. I just assumed most DAWs would have an equivalent of this as it's just a standard physical mixer setup. I did try the Valhalla Delay plugin trial a while ago and truthfully completely forgot it has a 20 second delay! I should buy it really. The return loop technique does allow extra fx to be added in there though which is always fun. Thanks for watching Nigel 👍🎶
In Ampero Mini, which is quite inexpensive now, there is among delays a very funny option, namely a multiple head tape echo emulation. 12 head options, but they are not the same as in Boss/Rolands. Manual says that it emulates 4 head unit but it seems to be 6 head. 🤓 If you set delay time to max 4 sec or use 1/1 when synced and set 50-80% feedback you can get quite funny effects. I am addicted to it. 😂 It has a slight wow/flutter effect too which unfortunately is not an adjustable parameter or cannot be turned off either, but it is not a major disadvantage. And when I want to really go crazy, I add three digital delays in front of it. 🤣
Thank you, very kind! I did try the Valhalla Delay trial and truthfully forgot it had a 20 second delay! It's a great option for this just never got round to buying it, should do really! I like the ability to add extra fx in the loop too... 👍🎶
"...it wasn't very good..." and THAT is the key to creativity... striving to go beyond what you have access to. If you have infinite buttons to click... all you will ever do is hit them randomly in the hope that something good comes out. If you have limits... you really try to create something specific.
Tthe tape deck must have 3 heads so you can monitor the recorded signal. I've just nearly done my back in lugging the other A77 in to have its picture taken with the 'working' one, only to realise I can't upload it here! You can get a Revox for much less than you said - £400, but it will need work at that price. The hard bit is maintenence - there are cheaper hobbies! Thx for the vid.
H there, thanks for the info, and sorry about your back! 😬 For argument's sake how much would a fully working and maintained A77 cost you nowadays? I understand it's crucial for tape loop work to have a separate play and record head but do you *need* to monitor the recording in Frippertronics, isn't monitoring the source inputs good enough? What is it you do with your A77s? Thanks for watching! 👍🎶
Good explanation I think a strymon el capistan will do this as well but on a shorter delay time I think it was max a couple seconds but I sold that a while back cause mine was janky
Hi there, thanks for watching. Yes, the El Capistan has a "sound on sound" mode - "set the TAPE HEAD switch to Single and the MODE switch to C" - I think it's up to 20 seconds? I looked at the new El Capistan plugin while doing this video but unfortunately the plugin does not have that long delay mode... 😎🎶
both dolby A77s in the thumbnail.... think it helps? 😂 on the expanded edition of the first roxy album, eno applies the time-lag accumulator technique to andy mackay's sax, long before fripp was invited to his house.
I'm going to admit something. At 1:35 I was like "😱🤯 what are these little weird recreations, where are they, and how much!?" Then really quickly was like 🤦♂️
Wow, when you start "plugging in" to those "tape decks"...The amount of prep you do is amazing, a real craft, well done.
Thanks so much, really appreciate the feedback! 🙌🎶
@@whirrings Nice pun, whether intentional or not.
I’ve been obsessed with Frippertronics for 30 years and for me this is the best explanation by FAR! 👏
Wow! That is praise indeed then, thank you! Glad you enjoyed it! 🙏
Your model making is legendary.
This is a great explanation for those of us who were born too late to experience these techniques first hand. Very inspirational. And I like your outro track too, so I listened to it twice 🙂
Hi there, thanks for watching and listening, glad you enjoyed it! 😎
Really helpful and much appreciated! Thanks for clearly showing how to set this up in Ableton. It was very clear and easy to replicate.
Hah! The "Tape, Delay, Loop"! Poignant and cheeky, brilliant set addition!
Ah, this takes me back to my early days. Two 7 1/2 ips tape machines on opposite sides of the room, tape supported over the backs of chairs, everyone trying desperately NOT to play too much or (heaven forfend!) make a squeak or a crackle. I still have those tapes, but nothing to play them on. I might have an MP3 conversion somewhere... Great days.
Hi, thanks for watching, sounds like a lot of fun! 🙌🎶
Excellent video. I appreciated how you showed an example of each process.
That's great, thanks for watching! 🙌
Beautiful video and amazing concept !!!
very clearly explained, thank you
Fantastic video. Love the model making. Looking forward to more of your videos.
Much appreciated, thank you for watching! 👍
great visual aids in your explanation
Dang! There is a chance this exact move could solve some of my issues and allow me to do what I have been trying to do. Thank you and thank the algo!
That's great to hear, good luck with it all! 🙌🎶
Love your presentation style.
You can do this on the Strymon El Capistan sound on sound function. It’s a fantastic tool. I have a Sustainiac pick up and so you can swell in infinite notes with a volume pedal. Pick a chord and keep swelling individual notes of that chord over a 30 second loop. The tape age and wow and flutter knobs can be adjusted to control the degradation. I love the off the cuff originality of it. Highly recommended if you want to do this but don’t have the patience to play with real tape machines
I commented before you got to that bit 😂😂
Hi Billy, thanks for tuning in! The El Capistan sounds great, hopefully I'll get hold of one at some point! 👍🎶
A precious video as you use to do into this precious channel. Thank You!
Super cool way to explain this all! Very well constructed!
Thanks for tuning in! 🙏
What a great technique! I'll be using this approach a lot. Also, very cool outro.
Thanks for listening, really appreciate that! 🙏🎶
You can also enable the send on the return track (right click greyed out A) and route the return back into itself. Saves a track.
Hi, I didn't realise this was possible! As it was greyed out I thought Ableton just wouldn't allow it hence the return track, but yes if you right click and "enable send" there it is! That would have definitely made it simpler, thanks for the top tip! 🙏
ddfeeding in chains like this is great, but you really ought to try it with the Looper device instead - you can just set it to record like 32bars, and then change the pitch from there.
Also, I would be remiss if I didnt mention that beat repeat and shifter rule in feedback chains like this!
Hi there, thanks for the input! 👍 I kept away from Looper for this vid because I wanted to go as "generic" as possible - works in any DAW. I didn't realise you could tap the insert of the Looper (just found out!) and so add effects into the decaying loop - that changes everything - probably have to make a video exploring that! Yes, Beat Repeat is endless fun, I use it in a lot of my music, thanks again! 🙌🎶
Great explanation and examples... thank you!
Liked & Subbed.Got my 1st Akai Sound on sound reel to reel in 1972.I could smell the motor,when I started typing.Played with a High-school friend for over 50 years.We went to 4-Tracks,then DAWs.Had the Gibson Digital Echoplex.That was Amazing,you could MIDI Sync it with a drum machine.Lost what you recorded when you turned it off though.Then the RC-50,300 and now have the RC-600.I'm going to set up a patch like you showed. You put a Lot of work into this video. Definely Appreciated. GoodTimes....👍👍
Wow! That's a great history with looping, some cool gear there over the years! And thank you, glad you enjoyed the video... 👍🎶
Nice setting
Thanks 👍🎶
Great explanation and detailed tutorial. Well done.
Thank you, much appreciated! 👍
Nice! I don’t have any hardware like that but I’ve loved frippertronics for quite a few years and just got Ableton a few weeks ago.
Time to break out Fripp’s version of Silent Night very soon.
Sounds like a lot of fun! 🙌🎶
Wow very cool,thank you
I used to use some VST delay on the PC, using synths as well.
Hi, yes I think there are a few VST delays out there with longer delay times, but I had trouble finding anything I liked that was reasonably priced which is why I started to chain the stock plugins, thanks for watching! 👍
your models were messing with my eyes...well done!
Thank you! 👍
My jaw dropped when I saw the ‘tape decks’. I had the EXACT same setup with a pair of A77s at the radio studio at University.
Brilliant! Did you enjoy working with them? 😎🎶
@ I did! You could easily spend hours and hours noodling away. I also had the opportunity to se Mr. Fripp himself demonstrating his techniques in one of our lecture halls. This would have been ‘82 or so.
Bravo, You are inspiring me a lot :)
Thanks, it's great to hear that 🙏
Sweet video man. Have you tried Enso from Audiodamage? Covers all this ground admirably. ITB though, if thats a concern
Hi there, yes I have tried Enso and quite liked it but in the end it was a bit expensive compared to this technique! 😆 Thanks for tuning in! 👍🎶
i have a vst called ellotronix xl that has like an absolutely massive delay.. its old though and i have been having a hard time finding a delay that even comes close in the modern era
but it has 2 lines in an out both go well over 30 seconds. but theyre a little buggy and imperfect but tthats probably part of the charm
Hi, yes there are surprisingly few modern VSTs with long delays, but now I use this chained plugin technique I've stopped looking! Thanks for watching! 👍🎶
Appreciate that you mentioned that VST, definitely trying it out. Apparently it goes up 80 seconds.
@@whirrings for some reason I was under the impression that chaining delay vst didn't work in the way shown in the video but I tried it and it does which is interesting. so good tip.
FL studio does not let you route send tracks back to their inputs unfortunately so Ableton has a one up on FL studio there
@@Vingul I have it backed up to like three drives since it's so old and I never wanna lose it. I may do a video explaining how I use it since it's not immediately straight forward
a vst like that boss hardware would be cool. I've tried some similar plugins but they always seem to be so janky and crash daws. I'm surprised they aren't more popular
The Chase Bliss Habit pedal is awesome for Frippertronics
Cool, the Habit looks like a lot of fun as do most of the Chase Bliss pedals! One day! Thanks for watching! 🙌🎶
@@whirrings thanks, great video of yours too!
This is fantastic thank you for the detailed explanation of it all.
Have you experimented with the MARK BACK functionality? Bet you would find it useful. Hoping you could explain how this works.
I'd not noticed the Mark Set/Back function before, it's like setting an undo point you can return too, could be pretty useful, I'll definitely have a play with that, many thanks! 👍🎶
Thank you, Mark, very interesting - I love the whole Frippertronic / ambient type of music and sound. I did go through my various delay plugins and found that the Valhalla Delay has a maximum 20 second delay time, which is nice, whereas all the others are either 1, 5, or 8 seconds. I use Cubase Pro 14 as my DAW, but there doesn't seem to be a way to create the feedback loop you demonstrated in Ableton. I think Cubase has some built-in protection against tracks feeding back into themselves, but maybe someone else here knows how to get around that without constantly having to bounce out loops to audio tracks. Anyway, great info, as always, and all the best to you from here 🙂
Hi Nigel, yes it's surprising if Cubase can't do this, someone reported the same issue in Fruity Studio. I just assumed most DAWs would have an equivalent of this as it's just a standard physical mixer setup. I did try the Valhalla Delay plugin trial a while ago and truthfully completely forgot it has a 20 second delay! I should buy it really. The return loop technique does allow extra fx to be added in there though which is always fun. Thanks for watching Nigel 👍🎶
In Ampero Mini, which is quite inexpensive now, there is among delays a very funny option, namely a multiple head tape echo emulation. 12 head options, but they are not the same as in Boss/Rolands. Manual says that it emulates 4 head unit but it seems to be 6 head. 🤓
If you set delay time to max 4 sec or use 1/1 when synced and set 50-80% feedback you can get quite funny effects. I am addicted to it. 😂
It has a slight wow/flutter effect too which unfortunately is not an adjustable parameter or cannot be turned off either, but it is not a major disadvantage.
And when I want to really go crazy, I add three digital delays in front of it. 🤣
brilliant use of old school visuals. very well done, thanks! btw, have you tried using just the Valhalla digital delay VST? nice outro as well.
Thank you, very kind! I did try the Valhalla Delay trial and truthfully forgot it had a 20 second delay! It's a great option for this just never got round to buying it, should do really! I like the ability to add extra fx in the loop too... 👍🎶
"...it wasn't very good..." and THAT is the key to creativity... striving to go beyond what you have access to. If you have infinite buttons to click... all you will ever do is hit them randomly in the hope that something good comes out. If you have limits... you really try to create something specific.
Indeed, limitations are generally good for creativity, but I wouldn't mind a few more buttons to click! 😆 Thanks for watching!
Tthe tape deck must have 3 heads so you can monitor the recorded signal. I've just nearly done my back in lugging the other A77 in to have its picture taken with the 'working' one, only to realise I can't upload it here! You can get a Revox for much less than you said - £400, but it will need work at that price. The hard bit is maintenence - there are cheaper hobbies! Thx for the vid.
H there, thanks for the info, and sorry about your back! 😬 For argument's sake how much would a fully working and maintained A77 cost you nowadays? I understand it's crucial for tape loop work to have a separate play and record head but do you *need* to monitor the recording in Frippertronics, isn't monitoring the source inputs good enough? What is it you do with your A77s? Thanks for watching! 👍🎶
Good explanation I think a strymon el capistan will do this as well but on a shorter delay time I think it was max a couple seconds but I sold that a while back cause mine was janky
Hi there, thanks for watching. Yes, the El Capistan has a "sound on sound" mode - "set the TAPE HEAD switch to Single and the MODE switch to C" - I think it's up to 20 seconds? I looked at the new El Capistan plugin while doing this video but unfortunately the plugin does not have that long delay mode... 😎🎶
both dolby A77s in the thumbnail.... think it helps? 😂 on the expanded edition of the first roxy album, eno applies the time-lag accumulator technique to andy mackay's sax, long before fripp was invited to his house.
th-cam.com/video/IzWNii7bGC4/w-d-xo.html
Oh yes, the Dolby is a crucial detail! 😆 Thanks for this info, great stuff! 👍🎶
I'm going to admit something. At 1:35 I was like "😱🤯 what are these little weird recreations, where are they, and how much!?" Then really quickly was like 🤦♂️
Haha! that's great! Thanks for watching and commenting! 🙌🎶
You’re not the only one!
The delay on frippertronics loops as seen on the albums god save the queen/under heavy manners & Let the power fall were much shorter than yours.
Hi, interesting. I initially started with just a 5 second delay for my first demo, was Fripp using shorter delays than that then? Many thanks 👍
9:30 Les Paul used a tape machine th-cam.com/video/0ZLhNoFElp0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=4UbawILSxUZZxm2t
Yep, I mentioned he later used tape, but he started with discs! 👍
Weird times back then! 😆
Boss DD-20. You’re welcome.
Yes people seem to like the DD-20, 20 years old! Still costs £100 more than Ableton Lite though! 😆