The reason they called him 'Jack Napier' was a play on the word 'Jackanapes', a medieval word for clown, jester or fool, sometimes used by the Adam West Batman.
@@acrodave9287 When I first heard about that one the guy who told me called it "Joe Kerr" and it was obvious right away that it was a pun name Joker made up. I'm so upset because I really liked the name Jack Napier.
As someone who's watched 89 Batman an innumerable amount times as a kid and adult, I can say the Joker being in love with Vicki was the impression I got when I first saw the film but upon further viewing and time passing, I don't think that was ever the case. Sure he may have thought she was hot, but his motive for pursuing her was him wanting her to be his personal photographer and take pictures of his various crimes and acts he wanted to possess her like he did Alicia.
Right, Jack Nicholson's Joker being Joker, nothing is ever as it seems. Jack Nicholson's Joker wasn't in love with Vicki Vale, he stalked her, kidnapped her, he tried to burn her face with his acid flower in the art museum and he tried to drop her from the top of the cathedral with his "Let me lend you a hand" deadly joke, and the Joker in comics did stalk and kidnap women, too. The Joker stalked Dinah Lance in The Joker #4 (1975) written by Elliot Maggin and art by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, Miller's Joker had a henchwoman Bruno and kidnapped Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Returns (1986) by Frank Miller and there was Joker's punk girl hostage Shirley in Legends #4 (1987), etc. Also Cesar Romero's campy version always had a henchwoman following him and Heath Ledger's edgy version went after Rachel Dawes and Jared Leto's version had a Harley Quinn and Joaquin Phoenix's version has a Harley Quinn.
After seeing "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker," I've been seriously considering the possibility that "Jokolson" could return for Keaton's final Batman film, reemerging - via a brain transplant or some other sort of sci-fi technology - in the body of a different Joker, with that actor doing an approximation of Jack Napier's distinctive voice. Knowing that he could indefinitely switch bodies would make the Joker think he was basically a god, and that would ramp up his insanity all the more. It would also be a final moral test for Batman, since he'd have another chance to master his anger and NOT kill the Joker.
The Joker had an obsessive fixation on Vicki Vale which NEVER came across as 'love'. He had a morbid fixation with her war photography which may have led him to believe she was a 'like mind'. But he really just seemed like a maniac pursuing a random, fleeting motivation. When his previous girlfriend was used, abused and easily disposed of you really got the message he WASN'T a 'ladie's man' and Vicki was actually in serious trouble.
I agree. He "loved" Vicki the way Dracula "loved" Mina and his other brides. At best we're looking at a psychopathic monster going through the motions in a vain attempt to reclaim some scrap of his humanity. It's far more tragic and pathetic than romantic.
Well said. It accurately depicts how psychopaths operate by viewing love interests as cardboard cutouts and demonstrating their "love" by attempting to mold them into their own image.
I have to disagree with your characterization of Nicholson's Joker as a love sick puppy. He is a raging narcissist. He doesn't love Vicki Vale, Alicia, or anyone else. The women in his life exist only to give him pleasure, from his point of view. He casually disposes of Alicia by disfiguring her once he becomes obsessed with Vicki. His "love" is just a manifestation of his pathological selfishness. Also, his feud with Batman is not motivated by competition for Vicki. He doesn't find out who Batman is until the bell tower, and that is only if he figures out where Batman heard his catch phrase. It is a shame that they chose to kill the Joker at the end of the movie. The option to bring Jack Nicholson back in the role would have created some intriguing possibilities.
As a clinical psychologist, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, one important aspect of Nicholson's joker is the sheer ignorance he displays throughout the film with his actions. That characteristic becomes a bit of a nuanced sort of charm. I don't know if it was be design or by happenstance but they did succeed in making a very unique Joker. One that will never truly be replicated. Heath Ledger's performance was also a one off unique take onnthe character. Motivated by something entirely different. I would gladly write a thesis on Ledger's Joker. Much like a big onion, his take on the crime prince is very VERY layered.
@@JungSooLeee That could be interesting. I have a hard time seeing Ledger's Joker as more than a garden variety anarchist. He gives a great performance, but I struggle to see the character as-written to be the Joker.
I'm not a diehard fan of Nicholson's Joker, but his portrayal never struck me as a lovesick puppy. He disfigured Alicia with acid, and went after Vicki after Alicia threw herself out the window. If he wasn't the one who pushed her... He dragged these women into his madness, abused them physically and mentally, put them in life-threatening situations agains and again... The dynamic wasn't that different from how Joker treats Harley Quinn.
I think whats hilarious is that Tim Burton, a guy who didn't know anything about the Joker and admitted he didn't even like comic books, still made a better version than what David Ayer and Zack Snyder did who claimed to be big comic fans 😂
You don't inherently need to be a comic fan to create a good character. Comics should be a source of good bones but shouldn't be the sole make up of the meat on the character
The writing may have done the character a bit dirty, but I’ll say it right here, Nicholson’s actual performance embodies the Joker more so than even Heath Ledger. The smile, the outfits, the laugh, the goofy gadgets like the flamethrower and the long gun, and even the damn Prince music all capture a side of the character that Heath, though his portrayal was phenomenal, could never touch. Nicholson’s Joker was extravagant, over the top, completely out of this world, and that’s why, despite the writing flaws, he’ll always be my favorite live action Joker (who’s actually named Joker, Jerome’s still the king!)
I, too, love the fact that everything Jack's Joker did had an element of vaudeville to it. It was all based on a mixture of traditional shtick and various other gimmicks, some of which even push the envelope for a "children's" character. (There's an element of burlesque, too, during the cathedral sequence. The Joker removes Vicki's shoes and then her coat, then leaves them behind for the pursuing Batman to find, turning some psychological screws in the hero by insinuating he's stripping the love interest nude.) Aside from exactly where in his pants that "long gun" was stored, there's some subtle scatological humor during the parade when the Smylex gas is being released from the balloons, since, with a little imagination, you can "see" that the green gas is emerging from the baby's diaper. Even when the Joker's assassins dress as mimes, it's a visual gag of sorts ("silent but deadly").
Absolutely. Keaton IS Batman and Burton made the only 2 Batman movies I acknowledge... That's why his movies are timeless while Nolans and the others are already dated.
I think reading the Joker's feelings towards Vickie Vale in this movie as at all sincerely loving or affectionate is a drastic misteading. She's just a shiny new toy that he wants and will throw away the moment something else catches his eye. Look what happened to Alicia. He disfigured her, the world's first fully functioning homicidal artist made her into a "living work of art" and then had her thrown out the window.
I never got the jack Nicholsons joker loved Vicky vale so much as he just wanted her and you make it sound like he did sweet things for her when all the "romantic" things were pretty twisted. I think jokers version of love matches up pretty well. Twisted hand jack in the box holding flowers , dinner at a museum with mass murder, trying to spray her with acid and taking her on top of a cathedral as leverage and almost killing her.
I remember seeing a drawing from Tim Burton which has The Joker carrying a woman who looks like a female Joker (makeup and all) but with long green hair and colorful polka dot outfits. That would've been cool to see.
@@brandonspain12345 Maybe that was supposed to be his (Burton's) version of Harley... or maybe it was supposed to be Martha Wayne Joker from Flashpoint... based on the description, anyway... don't see why Joker Prime would be carrying the Flashpoi... nevermind.
"I've always thought of the Joker as more of a Could-Be Cult Leader" When you put it that way, it makes you wonder how Jared Leto didn't nail the role considering all of his real world experience
that is actually how it looks to me at end of Joker 2019 when all the clowns made him there leader all thing look like a beginning of a cult and that is way there are going with a story
Would love to see someone make a Joker portrayal with some heavy Manson influences. The master manipulator, the cult leader, and how he’d switch between mental hospitals and prisons cause they couldn’t figure out if he was insane or not…
@@DH_Artist well, Joaquin Phienix's Joker has a pretty Mansony take. He was raised in poverty by an abusive mother, had mental health issues, turned famous for killing celebrities and had a cult of followers.
That's because the video should be called "The problem with Tim Burton's Joker" and in case, Vee Infuso makes some valid points. I don't agree with going against the Joker infatuation for Vicky Vale: he wants her because she is perfect in the standards of beauty and he wants to deform her like he did with her previous girlfriend and with the art gallery (also, the collages he maniacally makes). Consider how he saves Francis Bacon's piece in the museum.
@@emidom2004 Yeah, he isn't in love, he's looking at her like a painter might look at fine linen canvases or paint brushes. He wants to consumer her, bend her to his purposes, and ultimately discard her. That was pretty clearly telegraphed with the alicia hunt subplot.
@@emidom2004 he definitely has some bad takes in this video. like criticizing the whole "organized crime" thing, claiming that "following orders and rules" doesn't fit the joker character.. but that's only true for Jack Napier before he become the Joker, after he falls into the vat of chemicals he kills his competitions and takes over, while spiraling further down into chaotic evil, committing actions that are less "organized crime" and more straight up terrorism. he also contradicts his own argument by saying "I've always thought of the Joker as more of a Could-Be Cult Leader", a point that makes little sense as a cult is no less organized than the crime mob. in fact, a "cult leader" would indicate strong religious and/or political motivations and ideological fanaticism. cultism must be formed from some sort of belief system. which to me seems like it would be the complete opposite of the joker, who is often traditionally portrayed as lacking any sense of morality or coherent philosophy to his chaos. my point being, the "cult leader" shouldn't make more sense than the "mob leader", they are not actually that different. also, on the "i prefer the killer being a nobody"; while i know many share this opinion, i would like to point out that at the time of murdering his parents Jack WAS a "nobody", so that still holds true. and he would have continued to be a nobody, until he created Batman which then ends up creating the Joker. nothing is meaningful until someone interprets or inserts meaning onto it. the significance or insignificance of Bruce's parents murderer is completely relative, even if he was not to become the joker, he still would be an active person in the criminal underground of Gotham as any other villain, and who would have just gained the bragging rights of having successfully assassinated the richest family in the city. his character doesn't get Thanos snapped out of existence in-universe just because his role of "parent murderer" is over. the whole premise of "faceless criminal" is also somewhat hard to take seriously in a universe where you have The Penguin, Bane, Mr Freeze, The Riddler, etc and a multitude of various masked vigilantes all over the place. it's difficult to make the argument of a "nobody" in a reality where everything is incredibly theatrical.
when I was a kid this Joker scared the shit out of me. Even though he killed a lot of people in goofy ways it was his performance that made them frightening
I like the 1989 Batman, so much that I can’t hear complaints of the film because I believe none of them have to do with Batman or the Joker. They were both fine plus it made sense that their stories were connected since Batman and the Joker are supposed to be arch-enemies.
I forget who said this but when Jack was doing this movie, someone was worried they weren’t gonna be good at the role and this isn’t a direct quote but Jack said something like “Just let the costume do the work, you’re dressed like you are. Embody that character in that costume”
That's what Jack Nicholson told Michael Keaton. They said that Michael Keaton was worried that he wouldn't pull off a good performance as Batman and they said that Jack Nicholson pulled him aside and told him Kid Just Work The Suit!
Jack Nicholson's Joker is an excellent demonstration of why canon purists need to chill out sometimes. Is it faithful to the source material? Only sort of. But does it work in service of the story that's being told? Then it's good.
Exactly! They both had a touch of class, they both made crazy but intelligent plans, only getting foiled by either Batman's plot armor or because of their half-witted subordinates. Cesar Romero as Joker Could have been a LOT darker, the actor had the ability, but the writers didn't have that kind of vision, and the TV networks of the 1960s never would have allowed him to.
That's the thing, for 30+ plus years people had an imagine in their kind of what batman and joker were. Burton was able to take all that and give a very dark twist that worked and allowed for what came after
jack nicholson does a great joker but the flaw is he is just a crazy gangster. in the tv show he was a brilliant electrical engineer and an all around really smart guy.
@@perry92964 in the movie he is also extremely smart, not just a crazy gangster. When batman figures out who he is and pulls his bio, he figures that out, that's how he knows the chemical x isn't in one item but via a combination of multiple.
I don't think his Joker was actually crazy. He was a dark nihilist who just wanted to see everything and everyone burn. He just wanted to mess with people in the most cruel way. I would say he was a psychopath, but he was able to execute complex long term plans that require tremendous discipline, something that psychopaths tend to struggle with over the long term.
@@VTdarkangel Psychopaths are known to possess above average intelligence, and being proficient in analysis and manipulation. Heath's Joker was the perfect archetype of a psychopathic criminal. Not necessarily the classic Joker, but a realistic one, just what Nolan was going for with his trilogy.
@ghedebaronsamedi My understanding of psychopaths is that they are usually very intelligent, but because they are incapable of compassion and empathy, they often struggle with long-term plans that require discipline and interdependence with other people. However, I'm no psychologist, so I definitely could be wrong.
Nicholson’s Joker is still the most comic accurate live action version of the character put to film. I love Ledger’s and Phoenix’s interpretations as well and respect how radically different they are from each other and from Nicholson’s for that matter, but Nicholson’s is a pretty spot on interpretation of how Joker has been depicted from the 1970s onward in the comics.
that's something i think writers miss with Bats and Joker: they have to fit together in context of the story. this is why Leto failed as Joker, nothing about him said he fit with Batfleck
I felt they nicely complimented each other - they’re the same age (the actors are), but whilst ‘Batfleck’ seems older and jaded even beyond his advancing years and totally beyond Gotham’s bullsh*t at that point in his career, Leto’s Joker felt corruptly youthful, as if he _physically_ thrived on crime like a life of malevolence was nothing but an extended vacation to him. I’d actually have kept Leto but TOTALLY lost the ‘gangbanger’ aspect of the tats and the bling. Elements of his costume I would have kept too but yeah, his look definitely needed to be reevaluated.
I’ve heard this sorta fan theory version that Bruce actually projected the Joker onto the mugger who killed his parents since the only direct link is the “…pale moonlight?” And Joker acts confused when Batman confronts him about it in the church tower saying “what are you talking about? I was a kid when I killed your parents.” Like how would Joker know that’s who Batman was talking about? I think Burton still made it so Joker didn’t know he killed Bruce Wayne’s parents. It could also be linked loosely to the scene in Vicki’s apartment just before Michael Keaton gets nuts he tells Joker “I know who you are.” Maybe Joker figured it out after that. It’s well documented how the link was written into the script midway but it’s an interesting way to look at it with all these little nuggets.
I wish people can understand what it was like before 1989. Comics were viewed as a genre for kids only. So many parents took their kids to the movie expecting a modern version of the 60's series. It was hard to shake that I remember our teachers protesting that the movie should be banned for its violence. My Dad loved the movie so much he took us again. I'm fine with things being made a bit more maintstream for general audiences playing with- comic continuity. Experiencing worldwide Batmania at 8 and 9 is something I'll never want to trade.
This can't be understated. At the time there were only Superman movies, and the old Superman, Batman, Hulk, and Wonder Woman television shows. I'm sure I'm missing some, but those were probably the most prominent.
@@philhelm1318 There were 70's Spiderman movies that were totally my jam for ages. Also I was a huge fan of the 80's Superboy series. Green Hornet was a show too. I think that's all of them covered between you and me. Most of the time it was years between comic content. Sometimes decades to see a chacter return. We realy are living in a Golden Age.
My favorite cinematic Joker.. he was rotten and fun.. perfect combo of the goofyness of classic Joker and the maniacal killer he is known for these days.. love that Jack has a classic look, not sloppy makeup or extreme scars.. I hope we see another classic Joker in cinema again..
Jack Nicolson's Joker portrayal was so good, when I'd see him sitting at a Laker's game on TV, my mind would subconsciously go "oh shit there's the Joker." It became hard to separate the man from the character, it left such an indelible mark.
Joker was NOT "a lovesick puppy" over Vicki Vale. He was a narcissistic psychopath who wanted to use her the way he did Alicia, then throw her away when he was done.
For the reason you mentioned Jack's Joker is the definitive live action Joker for me. I think Jack's Joker had no love interest in Vicky. In the end, he even tried to throw her off the cathedral, together with Batman. He laughed away that Alicia killed herself. Batman's only goal was to avenge his parents' death? I doubt that that's the case. He fought crime before and after. You may like it or not but I think that Batman and Joker creating each other was genius and could have lead to a huge payoff if they allowed Burton to do the third movie, Returns already hints Batman's character development, leading away from ideas like revenge. I think it all worked quite well in the context of the movie and the story it wanted to tell.
I think you might be missing the point of Joker's infatuation with Vale. It arrives on the wake of his frustration with Batman getting the lion's share of Gotham's press coverage. He has already used up and destroyed Alicia and is in need of a new distraction. She is meant to be a press liaison to make him the new face of Gotham, in his mind. Hence his grandstanding on television and in reopening the Gotham Anniversary Parade. I think if there is any infatuation from Joker to Vale it is self serving and, in it's own way, a joke. She would have been found dead in Gotham Harbor with a smile on her face within a week.
Nicholson's Joker is one of, if not the most well-rounded and complete depictions of the character in live action. Think of it as a scale, with Ceasar Romero's Joker on one end, representing the full "clown" aspect and on the other end is Heath Ledger's portrayal representing the full "psycho serial killer" aspect. Nicholson's Joker sits comfortably between these two extremes, effortlessly and believably switching between the two. He can do goofy, campy stuff in one scene and then do something really dark and sinister in the next, often doing both in the same scene, and the audience buys in and believes it. It's that element of unpredictability that really helps Nicholson's Joker shine.
He was originally going to come back to haunt Batman through Scarecrow’s fear toxin in the canceled 5th Batman movie in the 90s but due to Batman & Robin’s failure well….
Wrong, dumbass That was a great change, because it motivates Batman to have more of a hatred towards him and has more reason to want to kill him and.stop his crimes.
I always liked Joker's gangster origin. It's like Captain America and Red Skull, both good and bad men who, after getting a dose of Super-Soldier Serum, became great and worse men. Jack Napier was already an unhinged psychotic just trying to get by as a hit-man and one chemical bath made him worse into a crime-lord who wants to kill everyone, including his own men and girlfriends.
And plus isn't Joker known for having crazy fixations on some one sometimes! It isn't that he was in love with Vicky vale he just had a insane fixation on her
@@thomasgoree7976 @lowlowseesee I def agree. Even when I was a kid I NEVER looked at it like he was in love. It just seemed like she was another thing to him that he wanted to possess.
exactly. there was no Joker love story and definitely no triangle. he was going to melt her face on move on to the next pretty blonde. she was distraction not a motivation
Jack Nicholason as The Joker is perfect casting. They’re both batshit insane. Also: to be fair it’s not as Joker genuinely cared or even loved Vicky. He literally just stalks her the entire movie despite her obvious discomfort with his very existence alone. I mean honestly he treats her the same way he treats Harley Quinn. Only difference is that Vicky didn’t fall for him.
The only problem I had with this Joker was he claimed to always say, "You ever dance with the devil..." to his prey, but he only dropped it when the plot needed him to and happily kills others without uttering the phrase
I think the others he kills aren't 'prey' to him. Like if I was some psycho myself going after a particular person, anybody else I wasted along the way wouldn't even register to me as more important than fences I cut or doors I kicked in.
@@routergray7041well said. You shoot some rando in the face and the only meaningful moment to ya is the rorschach like blood and brain matter splatter pattern looks like two black bears giving each other a high five, and it reminds you of all those times in mental hospitals, so you stand on the body and draw a sad face in the blood to ruin that image
I ask this all the time when this movie comes up - How did the Joker know who Batman was referring to when Batman told him, "You killed my parents", and Joker responded with, "I was just a kid when I killed your parents"...?
He said see you around kid. It's not everyday you kill a mother and father in front of their son. He probably knew then that Batman was that kid. Whether he knew who 'that kid' was is ambiguous.
He killed a lot of people when he was younger. He probably didn't have much memory but Joker does acknowledge he may have killed Batman's parents, even though he doesn't know who Batman is. He just killed people on a whim all his life.
While I Understand the Problems with this Version,I Really Love this Interpretation of the Joker,It Shows how Accurate he is while acting Insane with Chaotic Skims,Plus I Love his Dark Sense of Humor,it makes me Laugh,It’s the First and Best Live Action Joker that goes Dark and Violent played Flawlessly by Jack Nicholson and that they Created Each Other.
What I like most about this Joker is his origin. No tragic back story. No need for sympathy. He was always a bad guy. He always killed people. The moment Batman showed up, he just gave him a face that matched his character.
He didn't need any elaborate face paint/makeup for the role because his smile is naturally like that. And also the fact that the casting choice was indeed inspired by Jack's performance in The Shining adds to it.
7:08 What people completely forget for some reason is that the joker is a HUMAN being. Comic book characters are super unrealistic and act like they don’t need love or a normal life unless specifically written by the authors. Thus JACK NAPIER will always be JACK NAPIER except as he said, a whole lot happier now that all the cards have been dealt and shown by his enemies and schemers. Joker is a RELIEF and a chance for revenge to all who wronged him. Everyone needs to stop imagining the Joker as some heartless villain. Even the most evil people still “love” something and for the joker he loved abusing women because he was upset that his affair didn’t work out and he was severely physically injured and psychologically damaged as a result. Think of him as a lost man who just wanted more power but never got it until he paid the ultimate price. It’s a sad story because he didn’t get to enjoy his sacrifices for long and literally died for the thirst for more power. Just my two cents. Much love ♥️
I saw this movie the night it was released a million years ago. I remember being very disappointed. It has since become my favorite Batman movie. I thought it was weird that Mr. Mom, Michael Keaton was playing a superhero. Now he is my favorite Batman ever. Nicholson's Joker had to slowly grow on me as well. I think it was just Burton's oddness that I now love but was like vinegar and oil at the time. I was really looking forward to Keaton donning the cowl again but oh well. Keaton's Batmobile is friggen AMAZING!!! 🦇
The ultimate beauty of a character like the joker is he can be portrayed in so many different ways. They're all great in their own right. Even Jared Leto. It's a shame more people can't see how versatile this character is and accept that every iteration has its strengths and weaknesses. The comic book crowd can be so closed minded.
Batman 89’s Joker is the best all around in terms of character development. We get to see him before his transformation as this basically nasty guy who becomes even nastier afterwards when he goes totally insane. Gassing crowds with Joker gas, attempting to disfigure Vale with his acid flower, poisoning people all make for a great version of the character. The modern takes don’t really reach this level of insanity with Joker. They’re all good but 89’s still stands out even to this day above others for me.
Danny DeVito's penguin is still my ideal version of the character! As much as I love and appreciate the version from the comics, which was perfectly and wonderfully executed on the show Gotham, and also in the new Batman movie, Danny DeVito's monstrous underground dwelling freak version of this character is still the one that I associate with the name. That's only because I grew up in the 90s with him being in my mind as the definitive penguin. But he still is. I understand that his version of the penguin was an absolute fluke and something created just for the Tim Burton movies, but, much like Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman, its definitive for me. But that probably has a lot to do with me growing up in the 90s. I love the anti-hero version of Catwoman, the mobster version of penguin, but the versions presented in Batman returns will always be my definitive takes on these characters. When these movies first came out, I never saw them in theaters, but I watch them on TV and on VHS a lot, nearly every day growing up. And this was before I started reading comics. So, for me, Batman returns was my very first introduction to these characters Beyond Batman the animated series. These have always been the iterations of these characters that I have loved. Especially Danny DeVito's penguin, which in my opinion is one of the greatest superhero movie villains of all time. So yes, please do a penguin video! I can't wait for it if it happens.
I remember seeing Batman Returns with my cousin. When the dead baby grows into the penguin and you see it for the first time I remember thinking how freaky he looked. I loved Danny DeVito in Twins and seeing him in this was like WTH? My cousin screamed it freaked her out so bad! 😂
I agree. Jack was a solid Joker for Keaton's Batman, with some obvious flaws that you already pointed out. Personally my biggest complaint was his death. I wish that Jack's Joker hadn't been killed. The best solution would have been to have him drop out of sight, but when Gordon tracks down the laughter on the ground, to only find an empty jacket with the laughing box inside.
The beauty of Nicholson's version, he portrayed the 1950's joker. He was a genius murderous criminal first and insane second. That is what the modern jokers have backwards, he's written and portrayed insane first, then murderous criminal. And no longer a genius.
People need to realize that when this film was made the superhero movie genre hadnt really been established yet. Before Batman the only other successful Superhero franchise was the rather campy Superman series, which also took a lot of creative liberties with the source material.
While the writing wasn’t always the best with the love story and having an origin, Nicholson’s performance was perfect, there’s a behind the scenes story that Nicholson was urged to read some comics to get a feel for Joker’s character, Nicholson proceeded to say “fuck that” and did his own thing, and if you ask me, that’s why it worked perfectly
Nickolson's Joker was so great because he was not just pychopathicly violent which has become the standard debased Joker of today, instead he was an ARTIST, an artist that used homicide, neurotoxins and public chaos as mediums to make his art even if non one else apresiated it.
I dont care. I just watched him again in Batman and OMFG, Jack Nicholson's Joker is still so unnerving and scary. I dont care if The Jokers motivation goes against the comics. He only becomes The Joker after Batman drops him into the chemicals. And Bob Kane LOVED the idea that The Joker killed Bruce's parents. Once again, people take the comics far too seriously. After all, I think the movie adaptation of X-Men Days of Future Past is far better than the comic could ever hope to be. Cinema is a different media. Film is a very different blank canvas. I mean, these Tim Burton movies inspired the iconic Animates Series that we all know and love. I do kind of wish Burton went a step further and showed The Jokers smile was made with horrible scarring like Heath Ledgers Joker. And i wish they didnt kill him. We needed Jack back in the role.
I remember for a fact, fans in 2007 were very concerned that Heath Ledger was going to be a bad joker. It was to the point where the other cast members had to re-assure the public in interviews that Heath knocked it out of the park. People relentlessly bitched about Heath being cast the Same way they bitched about Michael Keaton being cast as Batman in 1989.
That is because Keaton had just come off the heels of Playing Beetlejuice, so people thought he would be better suited for the joker. They couldn't see him as the serious Batman after he was so hilarious playing Beetlejuice.
No disrespect to Heath Ledger who obviously did a great job, but Jack Nicholson's Joker served his purpose. Of course Jack could do more with the character darker, more sinister etc. Just wasn't the case, i could easily see Jack doing a great performance of the Joker in the Dark Knight It be great if they could do a version of "the Three Jokers" story with Jack..but he has retired from acting, allegedly developing dementia in his 80's.
If you think Jack Napier loves anyone but himself at any point in that movie you need help. When he sees Vicki's photos he sees death and pain and a means to document his new career path. He sees her as an object he can use, burn with acid and drop out of a window.
Several things here... the backlash against Ledger wasnt because he was a recast of the joker... it was because of his looks. people expected a more recognizable Joker like in the comics and cartoons and Legder's gritty makeup and demeanor alienated at first glance and the won the hearts of the fans. Regarding a Love triangle... Joker just wanted her to become the next alicia and then replace alicia after she un-lives herself... Joker has a thing for blondes and in his twisted mind what he did to alicia was a type of vengeance for what happened to him through her... he blames her and wants to continue having his punchline revenge with Vicky. Vicky being in love with Bruce is totally secondary because Joker NEVER finds out Bruce was Batman until the final fight. The Reason Joker got mad to Batman for vicky is only because Batman rescued her in the Museum. so no... No love triangle except for ONE scene in Vicky's apartment. Once scene, a short one at that in the whole movie. Running the Mob too convoluted for joker? well it didn't ended well for him right? he was mob boss for a few weeks and in the process killed one head, and put the rest against him out of fear... then comes the chemical plan and the parade and it was over... didn't last long. It proves your point but also shows you're over stretching it... also remember that Joker DOES have his own posse of followers and he does deal in all sort of crimes in Gotham... the rest of the Mob Bosses hate him and try to stay away from him but he still heads a criminal group in gotham. Now this is my personal opinion but i like Jack being the one that offed the Wayne's creating the batman... I never liked the Joe Chill or random criminal thing. Jack being the one who did it makes it all the more personal and connected to his relationship with the Batman. I also tend to think that Jack offed them not just as a random crime... I think he was Ordered to get Thomas Wayne out of the way by the Mafia... the whole pearl necklace thing was just to make it look like a random robbery gone wrong. and I agree, the Joker - Batman relationship in this movie is poetic. you put it beautifully. So Far, as I'm concerned, the Arkham games joker is the perfect Joker but then again that joker wouldn't exist if not for Jack Nicholson's Joker making Mask Hamill's Joker as good as it was. It's all connected and they all stem from the magnificent portrayal of the Character by Jack Nicholson.
Jack Nicholson had some pretty big shoes to fill when he stepped into the role of the Joker. Prior to Batman 1989, Cesar Romero was the definitive live action Joker in most people's minds due to his goofy but excellent performance in the 1966 Batman TV series. I honestly didn't think anyone else could play a convincing Joker until Jack Nicholson proved me wrong when he became the next definitive live action Joker, a title he would hold for 19 years before being succeeded by Heath Ledger who in my opinion still holds the title.
Psh there was absolutely no doubt that Jack would’ve killed it as Joker. That’s what got the movie green-lit. The real controversy was over Keaton as Batman.
Pretty sure Joker disfigured that one girls face and then she jumped out a window and tried to spray Vicky Vale with that acid stuff. I wouldn't say that was normal love.
This movie is revolutionary for its time along with the bold character decisions. it came in a world without the accessibility to the source material and at the time it was masterful
The only thing that would've improved Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker was . . . well, I hate to say it, but he could've lost a few pounds first. You could tell that they were using a girdle of some kind to keep him from looking TOO chunky. Joker was always drawn as a thinner type of guy, lean & lanky. Jack may not have had enough time before principal photography began to drop the pounds, so they did what they could to make him appear slimmer . . . but with middling effect. Other than that, he did a great job, and was easily the best thing in that movie.
A very insightful commentary. I routinely defend Nicholson's Joker as THE best live-action portrayal, hands-down. His balance of manic and depressive was exactly right: emphasis on the manic; depressive only sometimes, and deadly either way. Ledger's depiction- in line with Nolan's "dark and gritty" ethos, was mostly depressive, with only occasional manic outbursts: that, to me, is not The Joker. But I also agree with you about the story written around Nicholson's Joker. The origin story as a mobster is unique to this property; not from the comic pages. His infatuation with Vicky Vale (I'd definitely say infatuation, rather than "love" as you stated; he wanted to possess her, not love her.) was somewhat out of character for the comic book Joker. His identity as the murderer of Bruce's parents was not comic book canon. So as you said: this character was written to fit into this specific film. Much as Ledger's Joker was written for that specific film, and Phoenix's Joker was written for his specific film. (And Leto, if we must include him. Yawn.). I've said many times that I loved Ledger's "Villain" in the film, but I did not love that that villain claimed to be The Joker. But of all of those live-action film incarnations, though each was written for a specific film, plot, ethos, story, etc, the way Nicholson's character was scripted by the writers, directed by Burton, and acted by Jack himself: that found the core of The Joker's personality with the most accuracy. Demented, a-moral, narcissistic, deadly, but always- ALWAYS- with a fantastic, exuberant sense of humor about the whole thing. The Whole Thing being life itself. Life is the ultimate joke, death is the ultimate punchline, and laughing out loud about The Whole Thing is what The Joker does, and does best. Because Nicholson nailed it so well, subsequent Joker actors have wanted to distance themselves from that, for fear of being called copycats. I can understand that. But when you're trying so hard NOT to hit the bulls-eye that someone else has already hit, your only other options are to miss the bulls-eye. So they change their aim, and choose to explore other aspects of the character, and that can be interesting- but it's not the center of the character, and it shows. -My 2¢
the only issue is that tim burton gave Nicholson's jack napier,/joker is that burton gave Nicholson's character john doe role making him responsible for killing bruce's parents but other then that's it's comic accurate like falling into the acid and etc and jack Nicholson's joker pave the way for other incarnations of joker like btas and bruce timm inspiration for harley quinn came from Jerry Hall's Alicia Hunt Nicholson's joker girlfriend/partner in crime and btas canonize Nicholson's "jack napier" name by making little hints and refences to it and later making it officially canon for the white knight batman comics when joker uses "jack napier" for his persona. Nicholson's joker is revolutionary, impactful and the most important version of joker, and the only one in live action that stayed true to the source material when it came to his origins. bcuz after him it's all make up making joker into a cheap gimmick bcuz of ledger's joker that introduce that make up crap.
People didn't accept Jack as the Joker either. Cesar Romero was tall and slim, as the Joker was in the comics, Jack had a different body shape. His acting style was completely different too. But he blew the critics out of the water. I loved him in the part. I was unsure about Heath Ledger, and the make-up in particular, but the more I saw the film the more I loved it. Joker is a character with very definite defining traits, but plenty of room for interpretation. He has evolved over the decades. Both actors nailed it in differing ways.
@@sideskrollt sure how or why you took heaths version as "cool kid" , but that is your opinion and I respect that. To me heaths joker was had overtones of goverment trained, very intelligent, knew the system well, and most certainly had military training ( its very obvious). To me he would of been a "brain" in either C.I.A. or NSA based on his use of aporia in the opening scene with bank robbery ( uses an old tatic "game theory" against other small timers/bank robbers, a detail often missed in nolans version) He is always one or two steps ahead of anyone else in the film also, and he does indeed figure out who Batman is before the end with excellent attention to detail ( done on purpose by Nolan, one of his staples in his films, subtle) when rachel gets thrown out the window, joker later says "you know for a second there, I really thought you were Harvey" " The way you threw yourself after her!" And "Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?!" Implying he is aware that rachel/batman have a connection possibly a history/romance. Wouldnt of been hard to do some digging at that point ( off screen of course) and look into Rachels past and see that a close childhood friend was Bruce Wayne and add that up lol. I think it was done very subtle, but ledgers Joker knew who batman was. Had we got a chance to see more of heath I have a strong feeling that would of been a future scene, joker making bats aware that he knows who he is ( been done before, an old staple in series) So again I think I understand your logic about "cool kid", the hair, the style of Heath, the messed up face paint, etc. Its all done on purpose, to distract. For a man who said "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" He did indeed have a plan/agenda and the style of execution of said plans is what leads me to think he was ex military ( possibly a veteran) or goverment. Also Nolan wanted a very realistic version of batman for 3 films. The way the character of Joker has usually been depicted can easily suggest superior intelligence making him a possibilty for any type of character, or skill set.
Joker wasn't in love with Vicky, his demented mind just wanted her to become part of his horrific art. But I agree, there were a lot of flaws in the Batman of 89. A lot of that has to do with the zeitgeist. We were still chewing through Frank Miller at the time, and reeling from this darker, deeper story that could be told. So many of the flaws were a product of "How can we adapt this, attract the fans from the 60's, interest their kids and maintain cohesion." The fact they pulled of anything worth anything was amazing unto itself.
Nichsolson is great, Ledger is incredible, but Hamill and Monaghan ARE the Joker. It wouldn't work because Batman needs to be in his 40s in Brave and Bold for Damian to make sense unless he has been genetically altered to age faster. I just really wish Monaghan would get to play full on Joker. Taking the best parts of Jerome's completely unhinged mania ridden performance, yet keep some of the "supersane" parts of Jeremiah when he was given better material. Just for once in a movie I don't want to see someone do a take on the Joker I want the actual Joker to appear on the big screen.
There was a great breakdown once saying: Nicholson was Golden Age Romero was Silver Hamill was 90s Ledger was basically the "updated"/modern day version Leto is more of a multiverse, 'What If' permutation
I feel like the jokers "love" for Vicky was him going after a girl his former human self would want and him fighting so hard to get her is him trying to hold onto the last little bits of his humanity
But the original Joker was always an intelligent mob boss esque villain that could easily plot and plan, the cult persona thing only began to be a thing in our modern era, if anything Jack portrayed a pretty accurate silver age joker for its time and era.
Well, I don't think the perfect Joker will ever exist because there are so many comics out there and so many interpretations of the character, but Jack Nicholson was the very first to really bring the character to life, and in doing so, he did something important in the movie world and I'm looking forward to the Penguin video because I think he's a very underrated and multifaceted villain who has nevertheless done some really hateful things
Anybody that dislikes this iteration probably never read comics pre 1986, or is young and new to comics and hung up on Alan Moore’s or Grant Morrisons iterations in the late 80’s (The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum respectively) Yes Ledger was good but In a strictly studious method actor and frankly pretentious look into the villain. Nicholsons was what the Joker was at that time as Informed by the comics when they were coming out with the wild laughing and the hee hee and whoo whoos and the corny schemes and it was also very dark to which was where the joker was already headed. Plus on top of that his look was so very accurate to the books and a semi version of how he became the joker. Red lips, purple suit, green hair and white skin due to a chemical dunk. Of course in the film they switched up things to service the story so naturally there were some changes but make no mistake it’s pretty accurate representation of the joker for that time.
I heard there was a deleted scene where it's revealed that Grissom hired Jack to kill the Wayne's. So Grissom accidentally created Batman and the Joker I am glad they changed that because that is really dumb
I don't think Heath Ledger got backlash because he wasn't Jack Nicholson. I think he got backlash from people like myself who had NO IDEA what he would bring to the role. At the time I think he was perceived as a teen idol pretty boy. (at least I--having just seen A Knight's Tale--had that impression) I scoffed at his casting and totally ate my words when I saw what he did. He did such a brilliant performance that I think it's probably the greatest Joker ever done...and I don't even prefer the style he went after. The grungy and sickly version he does goes against the sleek cartoonish version I've loved my whole life. But genius is genius. To say he "knocked it out of the park" is an understatement.
One werid observation i have always had is take Batman and Batman REturns....the red triangle circus gang would have made more sense as the Jokers gang and the mobsters would have mad more sense as Penguins gang. Its like they switched them. these will always be my favorite Batman movies. Great video!
Nah, like sure it makes sense for the comics but the burton films?! You seriously imagine that burton’s version of the penguin would work with the mob?!
I don't need to watch the video, I can tell you the problem with Nicholson's Joker easily. It was so good and on point that it raised the bar so high very few can touch it. Honestly Nicholson should've probably got an Oscar/Golden Globe for the performance but Comic Book and such movies got alot of hate for a long time in Hollywood and even tho there is more depth to those characters since it was based from "comic books" they were looked down upon. Regardless Nicholson's Joker will always be iconic.
Did Joker really killed the Bruce's parents in this film? When Batman confronted the Joker about the murder of parents at the cathedral, he didn't identify himself and Joker didn't know what he was talking about. So it's kinda ambiguous. But since the claims this, Batman and Joker became what they are because of that one bad day..
I agree that Joker being an obsessive stalker and the person who killed Bruce's parents are pretty cheesy and dated aspects of this version. But what you need to understand is that cheesy was much more in vogue back then, especially when talking about Batman, whom most people back then remembered by the Adam West show. And Joker back then, even in the comics, was not presented as a grand dark manifestation of insanity. He was pretty much just a gangster with a clown gimmick, much more down-to-earth. He wasn't free from seemingly mundane human vices like unrequited affection, and definitely not free from the cheesy 80s movie villain tropes like accidentally creating his nemesis. You can see that in the BTAS version as well, with it obviously drawing heavy inspiration from Nicholson, where Joker is occasionally foiled in silly and humiliating ways. Honestly, when compared to the modern understanding of Joker as sort of an infinitely depraved god of madness who's above everything and hardly seems human, I find the human weaknesses of these old versions refreshing
The reason they called him 'Jack Napier' was a play on the word 'Jackanapes', a medieval word for clown, jester or fool, sometimes used by the Adam West Batman.
I can't believe I never got that.
I guess Joker doesn't have a non-pun civilian name.
Unless you count Melvin White.
@@curtisleblanc5897 Joseph Kerr? Oh, wait a minute... 😑
@@acrodave9287
When I first heard about that one the guy who told me called it "Joe Kerr" and it was obvious right away that it was a pun name Joker made up.
I'm so upset because I really liked the name Jack Napier.
@curtisleblanc5897 WHITE. Also when was he Melvin. Arthur Fleck isn't a pun.
It was also in reference to Jack Nicholson and Alan Napier.
As someone who's watched 89 Batman an innumerable amount times as a kid and adult, I can say the Joker being in love with Vicki was the impression I got when I first saw the film but upon further viewing and time passing, I don't think that was ever the case. Sure he may have thought she was hot, but his motive for pursuing her was him wanting her to be his personal photographer and take pictures of his various crimes and acts he wanted to possess her like he did Alicia.
Right, Jack Nicholson's Joker being Joker, nothing is ever as it seems. Jack Nicholson's Joker wasn't in love with Vicki Vale, he stalked her, kidnapped her, he tried to burn her face with his acid flower in the art museum and he tried to drop her from the top of the cathedral with his "Let me lend you a hand" deadly joke, and the Joker in comics did stalk and kidnap women, too. The Joker stalked Dinah Lance in The Joker #4 (1975) written by Elliot Maggin and art by Jose Luis Garcia-Lopez, Miller's Joker had a henchwoman Bruno and kidnapped Selina Kyle in The Dark Knight Returns (1986) by Frank Miller and there was Joker's punk girl hostage Shirley in Legends #4 (1987), etc. Also Cesar Romero's campy version always had a henchwoman following him and Heath Ledger's edgy version went after Rachel Dawes and Jared Leto's version had a Harley Quinn and Joaquin Phoenix's version has a Harley Quinn.
Yeah. Joker is gay man. That sh*t is canon. He went after Vale out of narcissism.
@@soulmechanics7946well it's true he can't get enough Batman
@@soulmechanics7946 nah Joker cares not about your gender bs
I also think that it was done to mess with Batman
Only thing wrong with Nicholson’s Joker was he only played the character for one movie 😎
I wish we could have another jack Nicholson joker film with Billy dee Williams as two face. We were robbed!
Aperantley he would have somehow come back in Batman returns.
After seeing "Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker," I've been seriously considering the possibility that "Jokolson" could return for Keaton's final Batman film, reemerging - via a brain transplant or some other sort of sci-fi technology - in the body of a different Joker, with that actor doing an approximation of Jack Napier's distinctive voice. Knowing that he could indefinitely switch bodies would make the Joker think he was basically a god, and that would ramp up his insanity all the more. It would also be a final moral test for Batman, since he'd have another chance to master his anger and NOT kill the Joker.
@@SeasideDetective2 wait a final keaton batman movie is possible?
@@milosbatmanvideos I think so.
The way he killed Bob was just what I'd expect from the Joker, and it was one of my favorite scenes.
Bob gun........click kaboom! Going to need a minute boys.
I love the murder by electric hand buzzer scene.
"Bob, my gun"!!
Pow!!
It's me, sugar bumps...
The Joker had an obsessive fixation on Vicki Vale which NEVER came across as 'love'. He had a morbid fixation with her war photography which may have led him to believe she was a 'like mind'. But he really just seemed like a maniac pursuing a random, fleeting motivation. When his previous girlfriend was used, abused and easily disposed of you really got the message he WASN'T a 'ladie's man' and Vicki was actually in serious trouble.
I agree. He "loved" Vicki the way Dracula "loved" Mina and his other brides. At best we're looking at a psychopathic monster going through the motions in a vain attempt to reclaim some scrap of his humanity. It's far more tragic and pathetic than romantic.
Well said. It accurately depicts how psychopaths operate by viewing love interests as cardboard cutouts and demonstrating their "love" by attempting to mold them into their own image.
I have to disagree with your characterization of Nicholson's Joker as a love sick puppy. He is a raging narcissist. He doesn't love Vicki Vale, Alicia, or anyone else. The women in his life exist only to give him pleasure, from his point of view. He casually disposes of Alicia by disfiguring her once he becomes obsessed with Vicki. His "love" is just a manifestation of his pathological selfishness. Also, his feud with Batman is not motivated by competition for Vicki. He doesn't find out who Batman is until the bell tower, and that is only if he figures out where Batman heard his catch phrase.
It is a shame that they chose to kill the Joker at the end of the movie. The option to bring Jack Nicholson back in the role would have created some intriguing possibilities.
As a clinical psychologist, I'm inclined to agree with you. However, one important aspect of Nicholson's joker is the sheer ignorance he displays throughout the film with his actions. That characteristic becomes a bit of a nuanced sort of charm. I don't know if it was be design or by happenstance but they did succeed in making a very unique Joker. One that will never truly be replicated.
Heath Ledger's performance was also a one off unique take onnthe character. Motivated by something entirely different. I would gladly write a thesis on Ledger's Joker. Much like a big onion, his take on the crime prince is very VERY layered.
Aye. Narcissists simply can’t DO love.
@@JungSooLeee That could be interesting. I have a hard time seeing Ledger's Joker as more than a garden variety anarchist. He gives a great performance, but I struggle to see the character as-written to be the Joker.
@@JungSooLeee As a certified forklift operator, I agree
I'm not a diehard fan of Nicholson's Joker, but his portrayal never struck me as a lovesick puppy. He disfigured Alicia with acid, and went after Vicki after Alicia threw herself out the window. If he wasn't the one who pushed her... He dragged these women into his madness, abused them physically and mentally, put them in life-threatening situations agains and again... The dynamic wasn't that different from how Joker treats Harley Quinn.
I've always felt that Jack Nicholson Joker was more comic book accurate and he's the insperation for The Mark Hamill joker in
BTAS
I still think Mark Hamill did an amazing job voicing the Joker.
The arkham asylum joker looks like Jack too I think but with features of the comic.
Except that Hamill did Joker far better than Nicholson.
@@scottdoesntmatter4409 I don't think so they both were great
@@thomasgoree7976 Nicholson can do menacing, but not funny.
I think whats hilarious is that Tim Burton, a guy who didn't know anything about the Joker and admitted he didn't even like comic books, still made a better version than what David Ayer and Zack Snyder did who claimed to be big comic fans 😂
Lolol
I wholeheartedly agree with you there
You don't inherently need to be a comic fan to create a good character. Comics should be a source of good bones but shouldn't be the sole make up of the meat on the character
And his movies are the most boring Batman
Burton did use Killing Joke and other comics for inspiration, he just wasn’t an avid reader.
The writing may have done the character a bit dirty, but I’ll say it right here, Nicholson’s actual performance embodies the Joker more so than even Heath Ledger. The smile, the outfits, the laugh, the goofy gadgets like the flamethrower and the long gun, and even the damn Prince music all capture a side of the character that Heath, though his portrayal was phenomenal, could never touch. Nicholson’s Joker was extravagant, over the top, completely out of this world, and that’s why, despite the writing flaws, he’ll always be my favorite live action Joker (who’s actually named Joker, Jerome’s still the king!)
I, too, love the fact that everything Jack's Joker did had an element of vaudeville to it. It was all based on a mixture of traditional shtick and various other gimmicks, some of which even push the envelope for a "children's" character. (There's an element of burlesque, too, during the cathedral sequence. The Joker removes Vicki's shoes and then her coat, then leaves them behind for the pursuing Batman to find, turning some psychological screws in the hero by insinuating he's stripping the love interest nude.) Aside from exactly where in his pants that "long gun" was stored, there's some subtle scatological humor during the parade when the Smylex gas is being released from the balloons, since, with a little imagination, you can "see" that the green gas is emerging from the baby's diaper. Even when the Joker's assassins dress as mimes, it's a visual gag of sorts ("silent but deadly").
Its a shame that the Guy who played the second best Joker ever wasn't even allowed to call himself The Joker.
Honestly, fuck Warner!
Not quite
Absolutely. Keaton IS Batman and Burton made the only 2 Batman movies I acknowledge... That's why his movies are timeless while Nolans and the others are already dated.
@@sideskroll lol burtons have been dated since 97
I think reading the Joker's feelings towards Vickie Vale in this movie as at all sincerely loving or affectionate is a drastic misteading. She's just a shiny new toy that he wants and will throw away the moment something else catches his eye. Look what happened to Alicia. He disfigured her, the world's first fully functioning homicidal artist made her into a "living work of art" and then had her thrown out the window.
Holy crap, he's a straight Sander Cohen (from Bioshock)
Technically she killed herself from having to deal with him, but he wasn't that broken up about it for long.
I never got the jack Nicholsons joker loved Vicky vale so much as he just wanted her and you make it sound like he did sweet things for her when all the "romantic" things were pretty twisted. I think jokers version of love matches up pretty well. Twisted hand jack in the box holding flowers , dinner at a museum with mass murder, trying to spray her with acid and taking her on top of a cathedral as leverage and almost killing her.
I totally agree
Yup. He treated her pretty much the same way he treats Harley.
I remember seeing a drawing from Tim Burton which has The Joker carrying a woman who looks like a female Joker (makeup and all) but with long green hair and colorful polka dot outfits. That would've been cool to see.
@@brandonspain12345 Maybe that was supposed to be his (Burton's) version of Harley... or maybe it was supposed to be Martha Wayne Joker from Flashpoint... based on the description, anyway... don't see why Joker Prime would be carrying the Flashpoi... nevermind.
"I've always thought of the Joker as more of a Could-Be Cult Leader"
When you put it that way, it makes you wonder how Jared Leto didn't nail the role considering all of his real world experience
He should have channeled that instead of clown wannabe gangster.
that is actually how it looks to me at end of Joker 2019 when all the clowns made him there leader all thing look like a beginning of a cult and that is way there are going with a story
Would love to see someone make a Joker portrayal with some heavy Manson influences. The master manipulator, the cult leader, and how he’d switch between mental hospitals and prisons cause they couldn’t figure out if he was insane or not…
@@DH_Artist well, Joaquin Phienix's Joker has a pretty Mansony take. He was raised in poverty by an abusive mother, had mental health issues, turned famous for killing celebrities and had a cult of followers.
Dude...that's a burn! 🔥
The problem was absolutely nothing he nailed it....his dark playful nature was exactly how I picture the joker
That's exactly why the video is here, to prove this.
That's because the video should be called "The problem with Tim Burton's Joker" and in case, Vee Infuso makes some valid points. I don't agree with going against the Joker infatuation for Vicky Vale: he wants her because she is perfect in the standards of beauty and he wants to deform her like he did with her previous girlfriend and with the art gallery (also, the collages he maniacally makes). Consider how he saves Francis Bacon's piece in the museum.
@@emidom2004 Yeah, he isn't in love, he's looking at her like a painter might look at fine linen canvases or paint brushes. He wants to consumer her, bend her to his purposes, and ultimately discard her. That was pretty clearly telegraphed with the alicia hunt subplot.
@@emidom2004 he definitely has some bad takes in this video. like criticizing the whole "organized crime" thing, claiming that "following orders and rules" doesn't fit the joker character.. but that's only true for Jack Napier before he become the Joker, after he falls into the vat of chemicals he kills his competitions and takes over, while spiraling further down into chaotic evil, committing actions that are less "organized crime" and more straight up terrorism.
he also contradicts his own argument by saying "I've always thought of the Joker as more of a Could-Be Cult Leader", a point that makes little sense as a cult is no less organized than the crime mob. in fact, a "cult leader" would indicate strong religious and/or political motivations and ideological fanaticism. cultism must be formed from some sort of belief system. which to me seems like it would be the complete opposite of the joker, who is often traditionally portrayed as lacking any sense of morality or coherent philosophy to his chaos. my point being, the "cult leader" shouldn't make more sense than the "mob leader", they are not actually that different.
also, on the "i prefer the killer being a nobody"; while i know many share this opinion, i would like to point out that at the time of murdering his parents Jack WAS a "nobody", so that still holds true. and he would have continued to be a nobody, until he created Batman which then ends up creating the Joker. nothing is meaningful until someone interprets or inserts meaning onto it. the significance or insignificance of Bruce's parents murderer is completely relative, even if he was not to become the joker, he still would be an active person in the criminal underground of Gotham as any other villain, and who would have just gained the bragging rights of having successfully assassinated the richest family in the city. his character doesn't get Thanos snapped out of existence in-universe just because his role of "parent murderer" is over.
the whole premise of "faceless criminal" is also somewhat hard to take seriously in a universe where you have The Penguin, Bane, Mr Freeze, The Riddler, etc and a multitude of various masked vigilantes all over the place. it's difficult to make the argument of a "nobody" in a reality where everything is incredibly theatrical.
when I was a kid this Joker scared the shit out of me. Even though he killed a lot of people in goofy ways it was his performance that made them frightening
Well again, Jack Nicholson is scary.
I like the 1989 Batman, so much that I can’t hear complaints of the film because I believe none of them have to do with Batman or the Joker. They were both fine plus it made sense that their stories were connected since Batman and the Joker are supposed to be arch-enemies.
You sir are a man of fine taste.
Agreed
The only problem I had with Nicholson's Joker is that he died at the end of the movie.
it has to do w/ the Batman version that actually kills his enemies. 🕸Tim wanted that
I never like him dying in the end ...arch-enemies should never die. When he dies- so does Batman
i wish there was more movies with jacks joker
I forget who said this but when Jack was doing this movie, someone was worried they weren’t gonna be good at the role and this isn’t a direct quote but Jack said something like “Just let the costume do the work, you’re dressed like you are. Embody that character in that costume”
That's what Jack Nicholson told Michael Keaton.
They said that Michael Keaton was worried that he wouldn't pull off a good performance as Batman and they said that
Jack Nicholson pulled him aside and told him
Kid Just Work The Suit!
Words of a master.
@@thomasgoree7976 And then Michael Keaton became the best Batman of all time.
@@philhelm1318💯
Jack Nicholson's Joker is an excellent demonstration of why canon purists need to chill out sometimes. Is it faithful to the source material? Only sort of. But does it work in service of the story that's being told? Then it's good.
10:17
Joker: "I created you, and you created me."
Gordon: "Batman, why did you create that guy?"
Batman: "I didn't he's talking crazy."
villian of the week? Wait till they get a load of me…
I love Jack Nicholson as the Joker. It's like a murderous version of the Caesar Romero incarnation of the character from the 60s show.
Exactly! They both had a touch of class, they both made crazy but intelligent plans, only getting foiled by either Batman's plot armor or because of their half-witted subordinates. Cesar Romero as Joker Could have been a LOT darker, the actor had the ability, but the writers didn't have that kind of vision, and the TV networks of the 1960s never would have allowed him to.
That's the thing, for 30+ plus years people had an imagine in their kind of what batman and joker were. Burton was able to take all that and give a very dark twist that worked and allowed for what came after
jack nicholson does a great joker but the flaw is he is just a crazy gangster. in the tv show he was a brilliant electrical engineer and an all around really smart guy.
@@perry92964 in the movie he is also extremely smart, not just a crazy gangster. When batman figures out who he is and pulls his bio, he figures that out, that's how he knows the chemical x isn't in one item but via a combination of multiple.
I prefer Jack Nicholson's Joker than Heath Ledger's Joker.
What I always hated about Heath Ledger's Joker was that we never got that scene where he is alone and still crazy.
I don't think his Joker was actually crazy. He was a dark nihilist who just wanted to see everything and everyone burn. He just wanted to mess with people in the most cruel way. I would say he was a psychopath, but he was able to execute complex long term plans that require tremendous discipline, something that psychopaths tend to struggle with over the long term.
@@VTdarkangel I'm not saying it wasn't a deliberate choice, just the wrong one.
"What til they get a load of me"
@@VTdarkangel Psychopaths are known to possess above average intelligence, and being proficient in analysis and manipulation. Heath's Joker was the perfect archetype of a psychopathic criminal. Not necessarily the classic Joker, but a realistic one, just what Nolan was going for with his trilogy.
@ghedebaronsamedi My understanding of psychopaths is that they are usually very intelligent, but because they are incapable of compassion and empathy, they often struggle with long-term plans that require discipline and interdependence with other people. However, I'm no psychologist, so I definitely could be wrong.
Nicholson’s Joker is still the most comic accurate live action version of the character put to film. I love Ledger’s and Phoenix’s interpretations as well and respect how radically different they are from each other and from Nicholson’s for that matter, but Nicholson’s is a pretty spot on interpretation of how Joker has been depicted from the 1970s onward in the comics.
I love Phoenix’s movie, but I don’t see it as a Joker movie
nonsense
its terrible
that's something i think writers miss with Bats and Joker: they have to fit together in context of the story. this is why Leto failed as Joker, nothing about him said he fit with Batfleck
The only way I saw leto's joker tie into batfleck was with the theory of leto playing Tim Drake
I felt they nicely complimented each other - they’re the same age (the actors are), but whilst ‘Batfleck’ seems older and jaded even beyond his advancing years and totally beyond Gotham’s bullsh*t at that point in his career, Leto’s Joker felt corruptly youthful, as if he _physically_ thrived on crime like a life of malevolence was nothing but an extended vacation to him. I’d actually have kept Leto but TOTALLY lost the ‘gangbanger’ aspect of the tats and the bling. Elements of his costume I would have kept too but yeah, his look definitely needed to be reevaluated.
We really just need a mix of Jack's joker and Heath's joker
And a little influence from mark hamil’s voice but not full on replicate it.
Cameron Monaghan's Joker (Jerome/Jeremiah) was what you are describing, too many people sleep on his performance
I think if anybody can give us that on the big screen it's definitely James Gunn
The DCAU franchise and the 'Batman: Arkham' video game series did that, especially the latter.
that's leto
I've always felt Ledger's portrayal was a sane(albeit angry) man playing crazy whereas Nicholson's portrayal was a crazy man playing sane.
I’ve heard this sorta fan theory version that Bruce actually projected the Joker onto the mugger who killed his parents since the only direct link is the “…pale moonlight?” And Joker acts confused when Batman confronts him about it in the church tower saying “what are you talking about? I was a kid when I killed your parents.” Like how would Joker know that’s who Batman was talking about? I think Burton still made it so Joker didn’t know he killed Bruce Wayne’s parents. It could also be linked loosely to the scene in Vicki’s apartment just before Michael Keaton gets nuts he tells Joker “I know who you are.” Maybe Joker figured it out after that.
It’s well documented how the link was written into the script midway but it’s an interesting way to look at it with all these little nuggets.
Or The Joker killed so many many people he didn't remember that particular killing.
Jack Nicholson will always be my favorite
I wish people can understand what it was like before 1989. Comics were viewed as a genre for kids only. So many parents took their kids to the movie expecting a modern version of the 60's series. It was hard to shake that I remember our teachers protesting that the movie should be banned for its violence. My Dad loved the movie so much he took us again.
I'm fine with things being made a bit more maintstream for general audiences playing with- comic continuity. Experiencing worldwide Batmania at 8 and 9 is something I'll never want to trade.
This can't be understated. At the time there were only Superman movies, and the old Superman, Batman, Hulk, and Wonder Woman television shows. I'm sure I'm missing some, but those were probably the most prominent.
@@philhelm1318 There were 70's Spiderman movies that were totally my jam for ages. Also I was a huge fan of the 80's Superboy series. Green Hornet was a show too. I think that's all of them covered between you and me.
Most of the time it was years between comic content. Sometimes decades to see a chacter return. We realy are living in a Golden Age.
My favorite cinematic Joker.. he was rotten and fun.. perfect combo of the goofyness of classic Joker and the maniacal killer he is known for these days.. love that Jack has a classic look, not sloppy makeup or extreme scars.. I hope we see another classic Joker in cinema again..
Jack Nicolson's Joker portrayal was so good, when I'd see him sitting at a Laker's game on TV, my mind would subconsciously go "oh shit there's the Joker." It became hard to separate the man from the character, it left such an indelible mark.
Joker was NOT "a lovesick puppy" over Vicki Vale.
He was a narcissistic psychopath who wanted to use her the way he did Alicia, then throw her away when he was done.
Its a very harley quinn-ish thing if you think about it
For the reason you mentioned Jack's Joker is the definitive live action Joker for me.
I think Jack's Joker had no love interest in Vicky. In the end, he even tried to throw her off the cathedral, together with Batman. He laughed away that Alicia killed herself.
Batman's only goal was to avenge his parents' death? I doubt that that's the case. He fought crime before and after. You may like it or not but I think that Batman and Joker creating each other was genius and could have lead to a huge payoff if they allowed Burton to do the third movie, Returns already hints Batman's character development, leading away from ideas like revenge.
I think it all worked quite well in the context of the movie and the story it wanted to tell.
I think you might be missing the point of Joker's infatuation with Vale. It arrives on the wake of his frustration with Batman getting the lion's share of Gotham's press coverage. He has already used up and destroyed Alicia and is in need of a new distraction. She is meant to be a press liaison to make him the new face of Gotham, in his mind. Hence his grandstanding on television and in reopening the Gotham Anniversary Parade. I think if there is any infatuation from Joker to Vale it is self serving and, in it's own way, a joke. She would have been found dead in Gotham Harbor with a smile on her face within a week.
Nicholson's Joker is one of, if not the most well-rounded and complete depictions of the character in live action.
Think of it as a scale, with Ceasar Romero's Joker on one end, representing the full "clown" aspect and on the other end is Heath Ledger's portrayal representing the full "psycho serial killer" aspect.
Nicholson's Joker sits comfortably between these two extremes, effortlessly and believably switching between the two. He can do goofy, campy stuff in one scene and then do something really dark and sinister in the next, often doing both in the same scene, and the audience buys in and believes it.
It's that element of unpredictability that really helps Nicholson's Joker shine.
The problem with Jack Nicholson 's Joker is they never gave him a sequel.
He was originally going to come back to haunt Batman through Scarecrow’s fear toxin in the canceled 5th Batman movie in the 90s but due to Batman & Robin’s failure well….
The only problem with this version of the Clown Prince of Crime is that they made him the guy who killed Thomas Wayne & Martha Wayne.
Wrong, dumbass
That was a great change, because it motivates Batman to have more of a hatred towards him and has more reason to want to kill him and.stop his crimes.
I always liked Joker's gangster origin. It's like Captain America and Red Skull, both good and bad men who, after getting a dose of Super-Soldier Serum, became great and worse men. Jack Napier was already an unhinged psychotic just trying to get by as a hit-man and one chemical bath made him worse into a crime-lord who wants to kill everyone, including his own men and girlfriends.
One lesson I'll never forget: never rub another man's rhubarb.
I thought his attraction to Vicki was on point. He wanted a new woman to destroy
And plus isn't Joker known for having crazy fixations on some one sometimes!
It isn't that he was in love with Vicky vale he just had a insane fixation on her
@@thomasgoree7976 @lowlowseesee I def agree. Even when I was a kid I NEVER looked at it like he was in love. It just seemed like she was another thing to him that he wanted to possess.
exactly. there was no Joker love story and definitely no triangle. he was going to melt her face on move on to the next pretty blonde. she was distraction not a motivation
Jack Nicholason as The Joker is perfect casting.
They’re both batshit insane.
Also: to be fair it’s not as Joker genuinely cared or even loved Vicky. He literally just stalks her the entire movie despite her obvious discomfort with his very existence alone.
I mean honestly he treats her the same way he treats Harley Quinn. Only difference is that Vicky didn’t fall for him.
The ONLY problem with Jack Nicholson's of being The Joker is that he dies in the end and not locked up or escapes like other later stories
The only problem I had with this Joker was he claimed to always say, "You ever dance with the devil..." to his prey, but he only dropped it when the plot needed him to and happily kills others without uttering the phrase
It's probably just an exaggeration but is a phrase he's fond. It's not like it's that integral.
I think the others he kills aren't 'prey' to him. Like if I was some psycho myself going after a particular person, anybody else I wasted along the way wouldn't even register to me as more important than fences I cut or doors I kicked in.
@@routergray7041well said. You shoot some rando in the face and the only meaningful moment to ya is the rorschach like blood and brain matter splatter pattern looks like two black bears giving each other a high five, and it reminds you of all those times in mental hospitals, so you stand on the body and draw a sad face in the blood to ruin that image
I ask this all the time when this movie comes up - How did the Joker know who Batman was referring to when Batman told him, "You killed my parents", and Joker responded with, "I was just a kid when I killed your parents"...?
Maybe they were the only married couple with a child he ever killed. I guess he wasn't a street thief for that long before joining the mob.
Hmmm
I think it was just an ad lib based on the idea that he knows Batman is obviously younger than him.
He said see you around kid. It's not everyday you kill a mother and father in front of their son. He probably knew then that Batman was that kid. Whether he knew who 'that kid' was is ambiguous.
He killed a lot of people when he was younger. He probably didn't have much memory but Joker does acknowledge he may have killed Batman's parents, even though he doesn't know who Batman is. He just killed people on a whim all his life.
While I Understand the Problems with this Version,I Really Love this Interpretation of the Joker,It Shows how Accurate he is while acting Insane with Chaotic Skims,Plus I Love his Dark Sense of Humor,it makes me Laugh,It’s the First and Best Live Action Joker that goes Dark and Violent played Flawlessly by Jack Nicholson and that they Created Each Other.
What I like most about this Joker is his origin. No tragic back story. No need for sympathy. He was always a bad guy. He always killed people. The moment Batman showed up, he just gave him a face that matched his character.
He didn't need any elaborate face paint/makeup for the role because his smile is naturally like that. And also the fact that the casting choice was indeed inspired by Jack's performance in The Shining adds to it.
7:08 What people completely forget for some reason is that the joker is a HUMAN being. Comic book characters are super unrealistic and act like they don’t need love or a normal life unless specifically written by the authors. Thus JACK NAPIER will always be JACK NAPIER except as he said, a whole lot happier now that all the cards have been dealt and shown by his enemies and schemers. Joker is a RELIEF and a chance for revenge to all who wronged him. Everyone needs to stop imagining the Joker as some heartless villain. Even the most evil people still “love” something and for the joker he loved abusing women because he was upset that his affair didn’t work out and he was severely physically injured and psychologically damaged as a result. Think of him as a lost man who just wanted more power but never got it until he paid the ultimate price. It’s a sad story because he didn’t get to enjoy his sacrifices for long and literally died for the thirst for more power. Just my two cents. Much love ♥️
I've always said that without Nicklson there would be no Dark Knight Joker.
Heath Ledger's joker literally described Jack Nicolson's The Shining when he told the first version of how he got these scars.
The problem with Jack Nicholson's Joker is that he was too fuckin' awesome, and he'll NEVER be topped. BEST and PERFECT live action Joker, ever.
There was no problem. He was by far the best Joker.
I thought Jack Nicholson was hilariously maniacal as Jack Napier, a.k.a. "The Joker", in the 1989 version of Batman.
I've always loved Jack's, "I'm glad he's dead!"
I saw this movie the night it was released a million years ago. I remember being very disappointed. It has since become my favorite Batman movie. I thought it was weird that Mr. Mom, Michael Keaton was playing a superhero. Now he is my favorite Batman ever. Nicholson's Joker had to slowly grow on me as well. I think it was just Burton's oddness that I now love but was like vinegar and oil at the time. I was really looking forward to Keaton donning the cowl again but oh well. Keaton's Batmobile is friggen AMAZING!!! 🦇
The ultimate beauty of a character like the joker is he can be portrayed in so many different ways. They're all great in their own right. Even Jared Leto. It's a shame more people can't see how versatile this character is and accept that every iteration has its strengths and weaknesses. The comic book crowd can be so closed minded.
Batman 89’s Joker is the best all around in terms of character development. We get to see him before his transformation as this basically nasty guy who becomes even nastier afterwards when he goes totally insane. Gassing crowds with Joker gas, attempting to disfigure Vale with his acid flower, poisoning people all make for a great version of the character. The modern takes don’t really reach this level of insanity with Joker. They’re all good but 89’s still stands out even to this day above others for me.
Jack Nicholson is far better than all the other Jokers.
☝🏼 💯
Danny DeVito's penguin is still my ideal version of the character! As much as I love and appreciate the version from the comics, which was perfectly and wonderfully executed on the show Gotham, and also in the new Batman movie, Danny DeVito's monstrous underground dwelling freak version of this character is still the one that I associate with the name. That's only because I grew up in the 90s with him being in my mind as the definitive penguin. But he still is. I understand that his version of the penguin was an absolute fluke and something created just for the Tim Burton movies, but, much like Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman, its definitive for me. But that probably has a lot to do with me growing up in the 90s. I love the anti-hero version of Catwoman, the mobster version of penguin, but the versions presented in Batman returns will always be my definitive takes on these characters. When these movies first came out, I never saw them in theaters, but I watch them on TV and on VHS a lot, nearly every day growing up. And this was before I started reading comics. So, for me, Batman returns was my very first introduction to these characters Beyond Batman the animated series. These have always been the iterations of these characters that I have loved. Especially Danny DeVito's penguin, which in my opinion is one of the greatest superhero movie villains of all time. So yes, please do a penguin video! I can't wait for it if it happens.
I remember seeing Batman Returns with my cousin. When the dead baby grows into the penguin and you see it for the first time I remember thinking how freaky he looked. I loved Danny DeVito in Twins and seeing him in this was like WTH? My cousin screamed it freaked her out so bad! 😂
Agreed I would love to see that version of Penguin used in main continuity after a Crisis event.
Its Danny Devito what's not to love rite lol
I agree. Jack was a solid Joker for Keaton's Batman, with some obvious flaws that you already pointed out.
Personally my biggest complaint was his death. I wish that Jack's Joker hadn't been killed. The best solution would have been to have him drop out of sight, but when Gordon tracks down the laughter on the ground, to only find an empty jacket with the laughing box inside.
The beauty of Nicholson's version, he portrayed the 1950's joker.
He was a genius murderous criminal first and insane second.
That is what the modern jokers have backwards, he's written and portrayed insane first, then murderous criminal.
And no longer a genius.
People need to realize that when this film was made the superhero movie genre hadnt really been established yet.
Before Batman the only other successful Superhero franchise was the rather campy Superman series, which also took a lot of creative liberties with the source material.
While the writing wasn’t always the best with the love story and having an origin, Nicholson’s performance was perfect, there’s a behind the scenes story that Nicholson was urged to read some comics to get a feel for Joker’s character, Nicholson proceeded to say “fuck that” and did his own thing, and if you ask me, that’s why it worked perfectly
What would've been funnier in Batman 89 is if Jack did the pencil magic trick and not the 50.000 volt joy buzzer 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Well he did kill a guy with a pen in front of dozens of people
Batman didn't technically end Joker. He just fired a rope that connects his ankle to a stone gargoyle.
Nickolson's Joker was so great because he was not just pychopathicly violent which has become the standard debased Joker of today, instead he was an ARTIST, an artist that used homicide, neurotoxins and public chaos as mediums to make his art even if non one else apresiated it.
I dont care. I just watched him again in Batman and OMFG, Jack Nicholson's Joker is still so unnerving and scary. I dont care if The Jokers motivation goes against the comics. He only becomes The Joker after Batman drops him into the chemicals. And Bob Kane LOVED the idea that The Joker killed Bruce's parents.
Once again, people take the comics far too seriously. After all, I think the movie adaptation of X-Men Days of Future Past is far better than the comic could ever hope to be. Cinema is a different media. Film is a very different blank canvas. I mean, these Tim Burton movies inspired the iconic Animates Series that we all know and love.
I do kind of wish Burton went a step further and showed The Jokers smile was made with horrible scarring like Heath Ledgers Joker. And i wish they didnt kill him. We needed Jack back in the role.
I remember for a fact, fans in 2007 were very concerned that Heath Ledger was going to be a bad joker. It was to the point where the other cast members had to re-assure the public in interviews that Heath knocked it out of the park. People relentlessly bitched about Heath being cast the Same way they bitched about Michael Keaton being cast as Batman in 1989.
That is because Keaton had just come off the heels of Playing Beetlejuice, so people thought he would be better suited for the joker. They couldn't see him as the serious Batman after he was so hilarious playing Beetlejuice.
One thing that I liked about 89 Batman was wardrobe. The purples and other bright colors really jump out of the film noir Gotham City.
Jack is and always will be the greatest Joker. The scene with Jack Palance is superb and indeed, every scene. Pure genius. ❤
Jack Nicholson wasn't a Joker.
He was THE Joker.
No disrespect to Heath Ledger who obviously did a great job, but Jack Nicholson's Joker served his purpose. Of course Jack could do more with the character darker, more sinister etc. Just wasn't the case, i could easily see Jack doing a great performance of the Joker in the Dark Knight
It be great if they could do a version of "the Three Jokers" story with Jack..but he has retired from acting, allegedly developing dementia in his 80's.
Since WB is Making Joker 2 Inthink they should do a 3 jokers story,where they have multiple jokers.
@@marvelstarwarsfan8410 yup have Phoenix, Leto ....man I can't help to think maybe Jack do one more movie be included for a role...be too awesome
The reason his name is Jack Napier is because Joker has two other identities red hood and Jack Napier
If you think Jack Napier loves anyone but himself at any point in that movie you need help. When he sees Vicki's photos he sees death and pain and a means to document his new career path. He sees her as an object he can use, burn with acid and drop out of a window.
Several things here... the backlash against Ledger wasnt because he was a recast of the joker... it was because of his looks. people expected a more recognizable Joker like in the comics and cartoons and Legder's gritty makeup and demeanor alienated at first glance and the won the hearts of the fans. Regarding a Love triangle... Joker just wanted her to become the next alicia and then replace alicia after she un-lives herself... Joker has a thing for blondes and in his twisted mind what he did to alicia was a type of vengeance for what happened to him through her... he blames her and wants to continue having his punchline revenge with Vicky. Vicky being in love with Bruce is totally secondary because Joker NEVER finds out Bruce was Batman until the final fight.
The Reason Joker got mad to Batman for vicky is only because Batman rescued her in the Museum. so no... No love triangle except for ONE scene in Vicky's apartment. Once scene, a short one at that in the whole movie.
Running the Mob too convoluted for joker? well it didn't ended well for him right? he was mob boss for a few weeks and in the process killed one head, and put the rest against him out of fear... then comes the chemical plan and the parade and it was over... didn't last long. It proves your point but also shows you're over stretching it... also remember that Joker DOES have his own posse of followers and he does deal in all sort of crimes in Gotham... the rest of the Mob Bosses hate him and try to stay away from him but he still heads a criminal group in gotham.
Now this is my personal opinion but i like Jack being the one that offed the Wayne's creating the batman... I never liked the Joe Chill or random criminal thing. Jack being the one who did it makes it all the more personal and connected to his relationship with the Batman. I also tend to think that Jack offed them not just as a random crime... I think he was Ordered to get Thomas Wayne out of the way by the Mafia... the whole pearl necklace thing was just to make it look like a random robbery gone wrong.
and I agree, the Joker - Batman relationship in this movie is poetic. you put it beautifully.
So Far, as I'm concerned, the Arkham games joker is the perfect Joker but then again that joker wouldn't exist if not for Jack Nicholson's Joker making Mask Hamill's Joker as good as it was. It's all connected and they all stem from the magnificent portrayal of the Character by Jack Nicholson.
Jack Nicholson had some pretty big shoes to fill when he stepped into the role of the Joker. Prior to Batman 1989, Cesar Romero was the definitive live action Joker in most people's minds due to his goofy but excellent performance in the 1966 Batman TV series. I honestly didn't think anyone else could play a convincing Joker until Jack Nicholson proved me wrong when he became the next definitive live action Joker, a title he would hold for 19 years before being succeeded by Heath Ledger who in my opinion still holds the title.
Psh there was absolutely no doubt that Jack would’ve killed it as Joker. That’s what got the movie green-lit. The real controversy was over Keaton as Batman.
Pretty sure Joker disfigured that one girls face and then she jumped out a window and tried to spray Vicky Vale with that acid stuff. I wouldn't say that was normal love.
This movie is revolutionary for its time along with the bold character decisions. it came in a world without the accessibility to the source material and at the time it was masterful
The only thing that would've improved Nicholson's portrayal of the Joker was . . . well, I hate to say it, but he could've lost a few pounds first. You could tell that they were using a girdle of some kind to keep him from looking TOO chunky. Joker was always drawn as a thinner type of guy, lean & lanky. Jack may not have had enough time before principal photography began to drop the pounds, so they did what they could to make him appear slimmer . . . but with middling effect. Other than that, he did a great job, and was easily the best thing in that movie.
Going to be a great day when Vee finally realises that filmmakers adapt characters rather than copy and paste them from the comics 🙏
[ Well ] Tim Burton's version of the Joker make more sense than other versions of the Joker after that one.
A very insightful commentary. I routinely defend Nicholson's Joker as THE best live-action portrayal, hands-down. His balance of manic and depressive was exactly right: emphasis on the manic; depressive only sometimes, and deadly either way. Ledger's depiction- in line with Nolan's "dark and gritty" ethos, was mostly depressive, with only occasional manic outbursts: that, to me, is not The Joker.
But I also agree with you about the story written around Nicholson's Joker. The origin story as a mobster is unique to this property; not from the comic pages. His infatuation with Vicky Vale (I'd definitely say infatuation, rather than "love" as you stated; he wanted to possess her, not love her.) was somewhat out of character for the comic book Joker. His identity as the murderer of Bruce's parents was not comic book canon. So as you said: this character was written to fit into this specific film. Much as Ledger's Joker was written for that specific film, and Phoenix's Joker was written for his specific film. (And Leto, if we must include him. Yawn.). I've said many times that I loved Ledger's "Villain" in the film, but I did not love that that villain claimed to be The Joker. But of all of those live-action film incarnations, though each was written for a specific film, plot, ethos, story, etc, the way Nicholson's character was scripted by the writers, directed by Burton, and acted by Jack himself: that found the core of The Joker's personality with the most accuracy. Demented, a-moral, narcissistic, deadly, but always- ALWAYS- with a fantastic, exuberant sense of humor about the whole thing. The Whole Thing being life itself. Life is the ultimate joke, death is the ultimate punchline, and laughing out loud about The Whole Thing is what The Joker does, and does best.
Because Nicholson nailed it so well, subsequent Joker actors have wanted to distance themselves from that, for fear of being called copycats. I can understand that. But when you're trying so hard NOT to hit the bulls-eye that someone else has already hit, your only other options are to miss the bulls-eye. So they change their aim, and choose to explore other aspects of the character, and that can be interesting- but it's not the center of the character, and it shows.
-My 2¢
the only issue is that tim burton gave Nicholson's jack napier,/joker is that burton gave Nicholson's character john doe role making him responsible for killing bruce's parents but other then that's it's comic accurate like falling into the acid and etc and jack Nicholson's joker pave the way for other incarnations of joker like btas and bruce timm inspiration for harley quinn came from Jerry Hall's Alicia Hunt Nicholson's joker girlfriend/partner in crime and btas canonize Nicholson's "jack napier" name by making little hints and refences to it and later making it officially canon for the white knight batman comics when joker uses "jack napier" for his persona.
Nicholson's joker is revolutionary, impactful and the most important version of joker, and the only one in live action that stayed true to the source material when it came to his origins. bcuz after him it's all make up making joker into a cheap gimmick bcuz of ledger's joker that introduce that make up crap.
People didn't accept Jack as the Joker either.
Cesar Romero was tall and slim, as the Joker was in the comics, Jack had a different body shape. His acting style was completely different too.
But he blew the critics out of the water. I loved him in the part.
I was unsure about Heath Ledger, and the make-up in particular, but the more I saw the film the more I loved it.
Joker is a character with very definite defining traits, but plenty of room for interpretation. He has evolved over the decades. Both actors nailed it in differing ways.
Never cared for Ledger's "cool kid" psycho Joker...
@@sideskrollt sure how or why you took heaths version as "cool kid" , but that is your opinion and I respect that. To me heaths joker was had overtones of goverment trained, very intelligent, knew the system well, and most certainly had military training ( its very obvious).
To me he would of been a "brain" in either C.I.A. or NSA based on his use of aporia in the opening scene with bank robbery ( uses an old tatic "game theory" against other small timers/bank robbers, a detail often missed in nolans version)
He is always one or two steps ahead of anyone else in the film also, and he does indeed figure out who Batman is before the end with excellent attention to detail ( done on purpose by Nolan, one of his staples in his films, subtle) when rachel gets thrown out the window, joker later says "you know for a second there, I really thought you were Harvey" " The way you threw yourself after her!" And "Does Harvey know about you and his little bunny?!" Implying he is aware that rachel/batman have a connection possibly a history/romance. Wouldnt of been hard to do some digging at that point ( off screen of course) and look into Rachels past and see that a close childhood friend was Bruce Wayne and add that up lol. I think it was done very subtle, but ledgers Joker knew who batman was. Had we got a chance to see more of heath I have a strong feeling that would of been a future scene, joker making bats aware that he knows who he is ( been done before, an old staple in series)
So again I think I understand your logic about "cool kid", the hair, the style of Heath, the messed up face paint, etc. Its all done on purpose, to distract. For a man who said "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?" He did indeed have a plan/agenda and the style of execution of said plans is what leads me to think he was ex military ( possibly a veteran) or goverment.
Also Nolan wanted a very realistic version of batman for 3 films. The way the character of Joker has usually been depicted can easily suggest superior intelligence making him a possibilty for any type of character, or skill set.
Jack Nicholson is the best live action Joker because he's the only one to fall into a vat of chemicals he's not just some dude in clown makeup
Joker wasn't in love with Vicky, his demented mind just wanted her to become part of his horrific art. But I agree, there were a lot of flaws in the Batman of 89.
A lot of that has to do with the zeitgeist. We were still chewing through Frank Miller at the time, and reeling from this darker, deeper story that could be told. So many of the flaws were a product of "How can we adapt this, attract the fans from the 60's, interest their kids and maintain cohesion."
The fact they pulled of anything worth anything was amazing unto itself.
Hmmmm.... Batman Beyond movie with Jack Nicholson reprising his role as Joker? Anyone!?
Nichsolson is great, Ledger is incredible, but Hamill and Monaghan ARE the Joker. It wouldn't work because Batman needs to be in his 40s in Brave and Bold for Damian to make sense unless he has been genetically altered to age faster. I just really wish Monaghan would get to play full on Joker. Taking the best parts of Jerome's completely unhinged mania ridden performance, yet keep some of the "supersane" parts of Jeremiah when he was given better material. Just for once in a movie I don't want to see someone do a take on the Joker I want the actual Joker to appear on the big screen.
There was a great breakdown once saying:
Nicholson was Golden Age
Romero was Silver
Hamill was 90s
Ledger was basically the "updated"/modern day version
Leto is more of a multiverse, 'What If' permutation
I feel like the jokers "love" for Vicky was him going after a girl his former human self would want and him fighting so hard to get her is him trying to hold onto the last little bits of his humanity
But the original Joker was always an intelligent mob boss esque villain that could easily plot and plan, the cult persona thing only began to be a thing in our modern era, if anything Jack portrayed a pretty accurate silver age joker for its time and era.
Well, I don't think the perfect Joker will ever exist because there are so many comics out there and so many interpretations of the character, but Jack Nicholson was the very first to really bring the character to life, and in doing so, he did something important in the movie world and I'm looking forward to the Penguin video because I think he's a very underrated and multifaceted villain who has nevertheless done some really hateful things
I always thought that Joker has multiple personality disorder. Plus , I remember in one comic there were actually THREE different Jokers.
It's crazy to think that at one point in time, people weren't happy with Heath Ledger's portrayal of The Joker.
Anybody that dislikes this iteration probably never read comics pre 1986, or is young and new to comics and hung up on Alan Moore’s or Grant Morrisons iterations in the late 80’s (The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum respectively)
Yes Ledger was good but In a strictly studious method actor and frankly pretentious look into the villain.
Nicholsons was what the Joker was at that time as Informed by the comics when they were coming out with the wild laughing and the hee hee and whoo whoos and the corny schemes and it was also very dark to which was where the joker was already headed.
Plus on top of that his look was so very accurate to the books and a semi version of how he became the joker.
Red lips, purple suit, green hair and white skin due to a chemical dunk.
Of course in the film they switched up things to service the story so naturally there were some changes but make no mistake it’s pretty accurate representation of the joker for that time.
I heard there was a deleted scene where it's revealed that Grissom hired Jack to kill the Wayne's. So Grissom accidentally created Batman and the Joker I am glad they changed that because that is really dumb
I don't think Heath Ledger got backlash because he wasn't Jack Nicholson. I think he got backlash from people like myself who had NO IDEA what he would bring to the role. At the time I think he was perceived as a teen idol pretty boy. (at least I--having just seen A Knight's Tale--had that impression) I scoffed at his casting and totally ate my words when I saw what he did. He did such a brilliant performance that I think it's probably the greatest Joker ever done...and I don't even prefer the style he went after. The grungy and sickly version he does goes against the sleek cartoonish version I've loved my whole life. But genius is genius. To say he "knocked it out of the park" is an understatement.
One werid observation i have always had is take Batman and Batman REturns....the red triangle circus gang would have made more sense as the Jokers gang and the mobsters would have mad more sense as Penguins gang. Its like they switched them. these will always be my favorite Batman movies. Great video!
Nah, like sure it makes sense for the comics but the burton films?! You seriously imagine that burton’s version of the penguin would work with the mob?!
@@Dracovenatrix I said what I said.
I don't need to watch the video, I can tell you the problem with Nicholson's Joker easily. It was so good and on point that it raised the bar so high very few can touch it. Honestly Nicholson should've probably got an Oscar/Golden Globe for the performance but Comic Book and such movies got alot of hate for a long time in Hollywood and even tho there is more depth to those characters since it was based from "comic books" they were looked down upon. Regardless Nicholson's Joker will always be iconic.
He’s the best. His performance is a lot like a comic book.
With this argument then Jim Carrey’s Riddler was the best performance of his career.
@@GabrielAlcala956 Riddler never was like Batman 4ever Riddler, just....never bro
Did Joker really killed the Bruce's parents in this film? When Batman confronted the Joker about the murder of parents at the cathedral, he didn't identify himself and Joker didn't know what he was talking about. So it's kinda ambiguous. But since the claims this, Batman and Joker became what they are because of that one bad day..
Him killing Bruse parents is terrible and then on top of it at the cathedral they both doxx each other in weird conversation. “You made me”
Yeah I agree I didn’t like this choice when I saw the movie for the first time.
I agree that Joker being an obsessive stalker and the person who killed Bruce's parents are pretty cheesy and dated aspects of this version. But what you need to understand is that cheesy was much more in vogue back then, especially when talking about Batman, whom most people back then remembered by the Adam West show. And Joker back then, even in the comics, was not presented as a grand dark manifestation of insanity. He was pretty much just a gangster with a clown gimmick, much more down-to-earth. He wasn't free from seemingly mundane human vices like unrequited affection, and definitely not free from the cheesy 80s movie villain tropes like accidentally creating his nemesis. You can see that in the BTAS version as well, with it obviously drawing heavy inspiration from Nicholson, where Joker is occasionally foiled in silly and humiliating ways. Honestly, when compared to the modern understanding of Joker as sort of an infinitely depraved god of madness who's above everything and hardly seems human, I find the human weaknesses of these old versions refreshing