LGBTQ Baha'i Experience Episode 2: Daniel Clark Orey Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2022
- The Baha'i journey of Daniel Clark Orey. His discovery of the Baha'i Faith, his journey navigating his love for the religion and his struggle with losing his Administrative Rights after he chooses love over Faith.
Wow.1992. 30 years. Thanks very much for this touching and informative production. Gotta love DCO.
@@samkale1386 Already checked him out. He’s solid, and a good friend of mine.
I am so sorry for your pain and suffering. I pray that this issue is addressed soon and everyone is shown the unconditional love that Baha'u'llah had for humanity.
This man was fighting the fight a year after I was born, and it's still not resolved. We have to remember that no matter how many steps forward we take, there are always those willing and eager to pull us back, and that whatever we get in the win column isn't some permanent gain to be celebrated, but instead a chip to be wagered by those who reign over us. We have to fight, not only for our rights to exist, but also to take the power of deciding our own existence for ourselves.
We ALWAYS have the choice to find our own happiness, whatever way that may be. We still have to obey the rules/laws. Everything in nature has its set laws. Who are we, mere mortals, to think we can make the laws for the whole of humanity?! We're not GOD!
A person can be a homosexual, just obey the law of morality. It's not easy, but we are obliged to do it!
Thank you so much for your honesty and openness and love. It’s healing to my heart and soul to hear this conversation happen. I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through
Thank you. "START TO LISTEN and Consult!" Daniel shared the 1993 letter to show the modern history of the Faith and the LGBTQA experience. 'The Letter' is a must-read. Daniel is accurate when he shares that there are LGBTQA+ Baha'is, their families, and allies of GREAT CAPACITY who have become inactive or withdrawn from the Faith due to this issue. This is a learning curve and our Community must be open to Love, Unity, and INCLUSION. As Baha'is, we are enjoined, by our goals, to work to build a new world community that embraces the diversity (fluidity?) of humanity.
I have explored this faith with such vigor and passion, I was so excited, so inspired until the door was SHUT. The worst thing is the pure hypocrisy, SHOCKING but true and so sad, my heart and soul felt ripped apart, they lured me in and spat me out. Anyway...my heart will heal and God has never left me, His love has and Wisdom are with me, I don't need to be a member of group of people to love and serve My Lord
I am so heartbroken listening to this! Thank you for your courage to be frank and honest. It is NOT about your refusal to obey Bahai law!! This is a total misunderstanding that does not understand that for centuries the human race has had a percentage who are biologically gay. In Native American culture these folks are elevated and revered as the healers and wisdom keepers. I was on a National Assembly and resigned because of this issue. Something in my GUT told me that this was Wrong.!! I have watched gays in our community feel like second class citizens, try to marry , with disastrously results, years of disastrous depression plaguing others who sought to marry to quell their truth. In nature The Divine creates homosexual species!! I eventually left the faith over this issue which broke my heart. I have been twice to Haifa , for my personal pilgrimage and then to elect the Universal House of Justice but on that last visit I was clearly shown that I would henceforth serve outside the formalized structure of Bahai administration but still committed to unity and integrity.
Joan you are messed up, your resignation is not logical, "GOD made Adam and Eve,NOT, Adam and Steve.
No te sientas mal o culpable. Ya no eres ignorante, gracias a su Santidad Bahá'u'lláh conociste la verdad, fue tu decisión, salir de la administración Bahá'í y hacer tu vida como mejor te parezca. Suerte, quiera Dios y Bahá'u'lláh encuentres la coherencia de tu Naturaleza humana y te rindas cuentas al más Sapientisimo el informado de Todo.
@@johndoee3850 Actually, since we now know human beings didn't originate when a dirt-man and rib-woman magically popped up out of nowhere in the Middle East, we know Adam and Eve are a myth.
I think people should be able to a choose. But the question is. Where do you put a line between the good and the bad. There are rules and one of them is to be respectful with others. We all have problems and if you criticize someone for being gay is not correct. But I have to say that the is a rule that is there. Like not drinking alcohol.
You cannot just decide that any rule you dislike is not good. Otherwise, we would have different partners, no marry because it is better just to enjoy live, drink, have drugs and all of that would be OK.
When the "Synopsis and Codification of the Kitab-i-Aqdas" was first published in the early 70s I was a new convert to the Baha'i faith. As a young, straight, long-haired musician, the thing that jumped out at me and many of my Baha'i friends was the bit that said "it is not seemly to let the hair pass beyond the limit of the ears". We wondered if that meant we all had to now get our hair cut short. (We also wondered, looking at photos of Abdu'l-Baha, if he'd somehow missed the memo.) It was only after leaving the Faith in 1980 because of no longer being able to deal with the blatant hypocrisies I saw in the community that I gave serious thought to the difficult situation of gay Baha'is, compared to which concerns about hair length (including the weird prohibition of shaving of the head) seemed rather trivial. This channel has been very educational for me, and I appreciate the perspective it offers.
you know the irony is that law has never been implemented in the West , and it never was applied to Persian men with longer bohemian hair in the East to my knowledge , yet there were Baha'is of your era who just wouldn't drop the issue making the Faith look so retrograde , I'm glad you like the channel
The Bible, Koran and Baha'i Sacred Writings are in total agreement on this, so you oppose what they say? Not a good idea! Your Abdu'l Baha hair example doesn't apply since its not enforced yet and he was living in a Persian culture at that time. It was a fanatical culture which rejected such hair cuts, so there is alot more complicated reasons than your simplistic example and attack against the Master. How foolish you and your gang of rebels are. You use selective perception to seek support for YOUR not God's views and filter out any views including God's that don't fall in line with your opinions and attacks against a Holy Book that is not yet totally enforced but will evolve.
@@christopherjohnson7461 Your comment clearly shows us your own intolerance of "inclusiveness" of the Baha'i Faith. For shame on your rigidness, intolerance, and dismissiveness due to your reactive fearfulness leading to such an histrionic rigidity in your understanding of the Bible, the Koran, and Baha'i writings. Frankly, I don't think God cares very much about hair length. I think there is something more essential to spiritual growth: love and tolerance, which apparently you seem to have missed the memo on.
Thank you for speaking your truth, my brother Dan! We are walking this road together. I am so grateful we have each other to lean on, and so many who quietly support us. Thank you Sean and Rich for this beautiful episode in this very important series! I look forward to future interviews! You are doing a wonderful service to bring the glaring incongruity between the Baha'i erasure of homosexual couples from the community and the core teachings of love and universality intended to embrace the full spectrum of diversity in the human family. I am so proud to be a part of this effort. Love always....
I'm not a people person. I rescue dogs, because once they heal they love me unconditionally. So when I see abuse I need to answer that, and that is why, even as a Baha'i, I volunteered during the AIDS crisis, and grew to appreciate the wonderful souls I visited and cared for. And then they all suffered horribly and died. To learn that the Bah'a'i Faith has taken on the issue to condemn the souls I grew to know, love, care for, and finally be witness to their deaths, is an abomination to me. Something is so very wrong here. So I withdrew from the Faith. I think the Kitab-i-Aqdas (sp) needs a deeper investigation into its origins and purpose by the UHJ. This is not the Faith that I once believed in. As a world, we need to reconcile with one another, not disparage and hurt others who are different from ourselves. And as for all that "all will be revealed in the future" excuse: that is the perfect example of cultism. The Baha'i Faith, once inclusive and open-hearted, is devolving into a cult.
I feel your pain and sadness. I admire your patience, desire to grow personally and nourish our communities. I want us all to walk the talk in frank and loving consultation. I want us all to welcome each other. I have friends that can't respect the Bahais for the stance, or lack of, on this issue. Feel loved as we struggle together forward. In our love for Baha'u'llah, in our nascent Faith and evolving community. We are so imperfect . Your straight Baha'i sister, Loretta
You put this together so well.
I vaguely remember hearing about your letter.
I left the Faith, as a hetero, because of this ridiculous position. It was about the time of your letter.
First, I'm a musician and they didn't have paying gigs back then. (Sort of laughing. But if you go on about treasuring the arts, help this girl pay the light bill. )
But this position. The ugly way that it was addressed. The uncompromising adherence to, basically, one man's interpretation.
Like you said, if they get something this vital this wrong what else am I not seeing?
I left when I was telling my best friend, a gay man, about the Faith.
It hit me so deeply that this thing I loved, this profound wisdom and guidance, I couldn't take my buddy.
So. Hey. The Christians and the Jews pay really well. (Usually)
And I avoid anywhere I can't bring someone I love.
Try the religion of LOVE which does not freeze in a certain time and certain books
People surely overlook the simple fact that Baha'i is not separate from other faith traditions, therefor if Christianity and Islam, etc. make mention of the concept of sin and homosexual 'note' vs the promotion of x. But the current understanding at this time is that we're all still learning how this 'update' to humanity ie. religious historical narrative will diffuse itself into the fabric of society. Baha'i also agree on the fact that we're not and will not be alive when the golden perfect age in society. Most likely things will get worse before they get better, every fabric of reality, every law will be tested.
In regards to Daniel's Administrative rights. It's nothing to do with God, Church (no churches), Clergy (no clergy), faith or religious belief. Only participation in administrative faculties. Nothing else.
Take to mind that a carpenter creates a chair from wood and tells the chair his role and what hes made of and where he'll be placed in the house. The chair doesn't necessarily know his creator or understand his role or that there are other substances to be made from. And likewise the chair in no way calls to question the status of his creator. If as a Baha'i we believe that the message and foundations and institutions built by divine guidance serve a purpose, who are we to call in to question to demand that they change and adapt to the sways of societal trends or demands.
Nothing in the faith states anything about vilifying gay people. Human is human, soul is a soul....but human made concepts and organizations are always in flux and essentially flawed by nature.
Thank you for sharing. I feel with you😢
When I wrote the U.S. NSA I got the same elliptical excuses: while it continues to disrespect the reality of sexual diversity, it calls on all its members to be condescendingly kind toward the sexual divergent. What a hypocritical stance!! "All will be revealed in the future" is a mantra to silence honest questions ("questions" is a name of a Baha'i month, named as a virtue.) Yet now we are punished for engaging in questions and so the neurotic fearfulness, and the profound damage of the insistence on applying the Kitab'i'aqdas, a poorly written book trying to establish a world religion no matter what the cost to its constituents, continues to tear the Baha'i community apart, "Ye are the flowers of one garden" has been discarded by the current conduct of th Baha'i authorities. What a sad ending to a beautiful Faith that could've been, if only..
Church ministers can do what they like. In spite of their actions their churches are still crumbling.
The way that Baha'is have dealt with this issue demonstrates to me that the leadership is not divinely guided. I believe that this antipathy against the LGBTQ+ community is born out of Persian culture. Backbiting is incredibly corrosive, yet it remains untouched despite the teachings on it, despite the fact that it is absolutely clear that backbiting is akin to murder. It's obvious that backbiting isn't dealt with because it's so widespread and virtually impossible to regulate. Dealing with gay Baha'is by tossing them out is simple. Baha'is have demonstrated their inability and unwillingness to rise to this challenge. I'm not surprised that 'entry by troops' hasn't happened. It has been expected
from the 1980s to now, yet it will not happen. Nice try, but you've shown that you are like the rest. It didn't take a thousand years. Less than 200.
This is my thinking as well. The Aqdas is so unbearably archaic that I can not believe it to be rendered by the same entity that wrote the Iqan and The Hidden Words.
Hypocrisy is the slayer of love. Since The Book of Laws state that all extra marital affairs are forbidden then EVERYONE needs to be held to task, not just homosexuals. We cannot just choose to uphold this law in regard to homosexuality but not in regards to other forms of infidelity. It is also my opinion that there are many Bahais who do not do the work of eliminating all forms of predjuice. Instead they just go only with what the law say about who cannot do what, but and will talk about gay people in a way that reveals their prejudice.
The law has the consequences already in place. People do not need to take the additional step of saying cruel things excluding you out of other thing or going things. In a religion about justice pick and choose which laws get honored and which don’t.
It makes me think of book one where it asks can we lie to ourselves. Obviously the answer is yes. We can’t say that we believe in justice if we don’t apply the law to everyone who breaks it. We can’t just single out one group, ignore the rest the rest of the people who also break the law, and pretend that we are doing a good job.
Really nuanced perspective.
ALL people are welcome to the Bahai Faith, we DO have to live the Bahai life.
How do you address the topic above? Evasion at best.
I really empathize with Daniel's son because I often get in moods where I just want to troll Baha'i social media to remind everyone that the Baha'i Faith is homophobic. That said, I knew about that letter that Daniel wrote, but I did not know that there was never a reply, except for the publication of the book. Does anyone know if that book is still being published? Also, I don't think the information spoken about Sam McClellan is completely accurate. I knew him very well when I was an active Baha'i, and know that he was happily married to a woman and died here in the USA. However, he was an MD psychiatrist who unfortunately wrote about and recommended reparative therapy as a "remedy" for homosexuality. He was misguided, as are many Baha'is, but a really decent person nonetheless, which, of course, we know to be the case for so many others. This is what makes it so hard to know how to advocate on the iLGBTQ issue. The majority of Baha'is are just so obedient that they don't realize how awful it is to censor discussion, let alone to just be an ally. It makes me so sad and angry.
Sam and Mimi McClellan were lovely people. Unfortunately, he did espouse reparative therapy in his practice.
A different Sam
I called him the good Sam...
@@WallaWallaWare that was a different Sam... I worked with the "lesser Sam" who was with his husband for many years (a physician), and they lived in NJ... and then moved to Italy. He had met Mark Tobey as a kid... he was a bodhisattva. We ran the mtg in Denver with CC B... as the Lesser Sam was friendly with the Aux Board member there...
So why pick on Baha'i look at the two largest Christian denominations: Catholic and Baptist evangelicals who will NEVER change on this subject, all of Islam and you want to pick on the smallest world religion. All the Holy Books of the Bible, Koran and Baha'i Sacred Writings agree on this stance but you are out to change God instead of allowing God to change you.
"methinks I shrivel" is what was written - the covenant, though - is 'invoilable..'.. a promise.. a part of the throne of David
i see a way bro
If I was gay and wanted to practice my gayness, I would join a religion that would tolerate me. All religions are from God and they're all loving. So why not joining them? Baha'i Faith doesn't see other religions as competition. We Baha'is are encouraged to associate with other religions with friendliness and love anyway.
Sadly, your argument doesn't hold: the Baha'i Faith accepted the large numbers of gays and lesbians participating in the Baha'i community for decades. Until it didn't. These members were loved and accepted until this weirdly confusing edict was recently enforced. Most hurtfully, these Baha'is were harshly deprived of community interaction. For Baha'is, this is a deep loss.This is damage, hurtfulness, and retractive punishment. Science has solidly shown this punitive issue is based on prejudice and fear rather than rationality.
You ARE allowed to talk. And you are doing EXACTLY THAT!! Humanity is FAR from maturity. Things will change dramatically in the decades ahead! This period in history is likened to the "convulsions of adolescence". Bahaullah has given us the teachings, from God, to last humanity for "one thousand years and more".
Who are WE to think we know more than God?!
While I agree with you, the U.S. NSA offers little hope for resolution. It advocates compassion and respect for its gay members, but at the same time, ostracizes them from meaningful work within the Faith. That is a slap in the face to which so many Baha'is seem to have leapt on, which seem to have entitled their homophobic rants. So much for inclusiveness, dignity, and appreciation for all the diversity in our "flower garden". I wish the Kitab-i-Aqdas was flushed down the toilet: it has done nothing but inflict damage on what was once a wonderful Faith.
Allah'u'abha - I guess it's awkward, or contrary to 'q spiritual response to the Faiths past
ts is crazy
Conservative quirk, for sure... There will be a living guardian first before gay is accepted as 'a true spiritual path...'..
I never saw any behavior of men hitting on men, I’ve been to many activities
Trust me it happens there , it may not be in the middle of a sharing circle , but it happens , I know a same sex couple who lives in Big Bear who met at BNASSA , if the walls could talk at BNASSA Conferences ...
you chose to to look the other way around.
Head for the Mormon church, and ?? .. They have mid singles groups..
Any group needs by existential necessity converge on a limited set of ideas. Thus religions become stale at the core after a certain time. This is like a crystal forming, growing from one irregularity into a complete structure.
You are gay. That is just a fact. It is a reality. Nevertheless, human beings of limited consciousness, must make distinctions. They need to find a path into the chaos. So they sort themselves internally and externally into familiar groups. Most people, being mammals, divide naturally into masculine and feminine. The sperm finds the egg and the chain of life, this powerful current, that is what we are, finds continuation.
We try and find freedom. We want to transcend the bonding of instinct. That is essentially spirituality. This mind, this spirit, this soul, I exist, because I know I exist. I know I am at the centre of this life. I am the acting agent. Some of my actions are voluntary, but so much of my life is guided by innate forces, propensities.
Thus in religion we find complex structures to guide our awareness into freedom, God, love. Homosexuality is a bit strange. It does not seem to lead to procreation. Because this urge to procreate is so important to life, it must also be an important drive in our subjective experience. Maybe the young Bahaí Faith is still a bit insecure at heart. It feels a need to cling to what is normal. In reality noone is normal and everyone is s unique exception. This creates a special kind of loneliness.
The Bahaí Faith taught you these basic tenets, this clear understanding and recognition, that unity in diversity is the way to go. Some conservatives might say that gay marriage errodes heterosexual marriage. Progressives will say that the formalisation of the bond creates a commitment and stability. It prevents sexual confusion. Marriage contains the sexual, give the urge a solid social context.
I wonder how you think about the ongoing polarisation in the US regarding transgender. Personally I feel, that this has formed into a pseudocult. I do not feel good about the liberty with which children are being estranged from their parents and driven to belief, that damaging and irreversible medical procedures are a solution.
In America everything seems to be made a political statement separating the country into only two groups. That seems to me a strange and unnatural thing. Many parents are afraid that the transgender ideology damages our children's minds.
What do you think about this as a Bahaí in spirit, if I may ask?
Thank you for the video. You strike me as a very sincere person.
I'm sorry you are so fearful, and so misled about this complex issue. Perhaps once you've met and lived with those who differ from your own understanding of sexuality might lessen your fears and judgementalism.
Homosexuals want to be part of religion. Religion, however, refuses to completely embrace homosexuality. This is terribly frustrating. It’s an eternal torture. To be free of this torture, the homosexual has to choose the path which is easier.
I’m sorry you are in this situation. I hope you will continue to deepen on the writings and stop attacking the people of Baha.
He speaks to his heart. You chose not to understand his message. You get it wrong and you do not have any empathy to this man. Im a Baha'i. I don't feel like he's attacking Bahai's. And you are not sorry.
Bahaullah made remarks on the gay lifestyle, he is who I will follow, NOT what a person wants to change it,and suit there on incorrect EGO.He said alcohol, was not good, even a small amount, I will honor his request. I have nothing against gay people, however, I will not ever agree with there behavior.
@@fanabudrogh9241 Perhaps you might find it enlightening to take a college course in logic in order to unpack your irrelevancies that you've presented. Sigh.
@@fanabudrogh9241 Since you're educated in science, (BTW, what is a "life science" degree? Not a universally accepted credential.): 1.) How do you explain the XXY chromosome vs. XY and XX? 2.) Why should someone be punished for simply having a genetic result? Questions are a Baha'i virtue, even naming a month after it, so I admire those who question this issue rather than rolling over and saying "all will be revealed in the future'.
Your proposed repressiveness of sexuality, in a minority acceptable today, might be seen as a reaction to the repressive cultures in the past which you and others embraced. That does not mean that it is worthy of respect. Instead, much like slavery, it should be rejected by right-thinking, compassionate, and thoughtful people. If you could dial down your rhetoric, then perhaps we could all get along together. Homophobia/Slavery both draw from the same, dark past that we need to evolve beyond.
Science confirmed one is born that way. Progressive countries have it accepted. And you call it nothing but ego?
The Bible, Koran and Baha'i Sacred Writings are in total agreement on heterosexuality, so you oppose what the vast majority of the religious world is instructed to believe and say? So, you decide to attack the beliefs of God's most recent revelation? Not a good idea! No love is coming out of this site no matter what you say.
Your Abdu'l Baha hair example is awful. It definitely doesn't apply since its not enforced yet and he was living in a Persian culture at that time. Persia was a fanatical culture which rejected such hair cuts, so there is alot more complicated reasons than your simplistic example and attack against the Master. How foolish you and your gang of rebels are.
You use selective perception to seek support for breaking Baha'i laws and your rebellion against our Faith and its beliefs. This site offers YOUR not God's views and filter out any views including God's that don't fall in line with your opinions and attacks against a Holy Book that is not yet totally enforced but will evolve. Yet in saying these sad truths, it is interesting the praise your group has for the Faith in areas that appeal to you, like Baha'i prayers, Sacred Writings and such. I don't quit get this site, if its to try to change the Faith on homosexual behavior it will never happen. If your goal is to attack the Faith, its stronger than you and nothing you do or say will hurt anything about the Faith except your own souls. If Baha'u'llah is who He says He is, which I believe He is, you will be called to account for your actions, this site is really shameful before God although by getting some support from others who rebel against God's laws may temporarily make you feel good about your really spiritually bankrupt decisions, you are indeed fooling yourself.
. Rigid conservatives have used sexual morays as a weapon to inflict on innocents for thousands of years.That does not mean it is right, kind, moral, or compassionate. Instead, it is used to take power over sex simply to subjugate people. Meditate on the meaning of compassion and/or tolerance. You miss the mark by far.