The trick is to wear lots of mail. Not only does it protect you from the slowed down arrows, but it also drags you down quicker, so you get more water between yourself and the arrows. I see no flaw in this and will not be accepting criticism on this plan.
my gues with jumping in the moat or pond when being shot at by bowmen, was moats and ponds are normally very cloady so they obscure vision. second there is the Paralax error to take into account., as water has different reflaction index than plain air does what im getting at is, water might not stop the arrow enouth to take the punch out of it but it might obscure the vision enouth to make it more likely the bowman will miss, especially under night conditions.
Conclusion; if you're escaping from a prison in 1410, hope against hope that all the guards on duty that night are gunners rather than longbowmen. Also, keep your legs straight when you hit the water.
For the next lockdown longbow video, I'd love to see you test out a Japanese 'Horo'. It was a big cloak worn by Samurai during the Feudal period. It was made out of several layers of cloth and would 'inflate' similar to a hot air balloon or parachute when the Samurai rode a horse. It protected the wearer from arrows shot from behind and side by 'catching' the arrows or slowing them down enough to cause only minimal damage. "Ancient Discoveries" did an episode testing it (S06E08) and they found that it was pretty good at protecting the wearer. They, of course, used a bow and arrow types that were period appropriate for Fuedal Japan. It would be interesting to see how the 'Horo' does against the lockdown longbow and some bodkins. Love the channel.
Quick question, since I don't know where I can find the episode to watch it myself. Did they really use a period appropriate war bow with heavy arrows? I ask because in all the videos I've seen testing aspects of Japanese archery they always seem to use modern kyudō equipment with low draw weights, which I find to be very disappointing and not representative of what would have been used in war times. Like you, I would also love to see Tod test the concept.
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 Ehh I'm not disagreeing, but don't dismiss it out of hand: it's several tough layers of silk that are allowed to free float (at least in the versions that worked). Other videos that have focused on it in the past did show that they could stop arrows quite effectively - the arrow hits the silk but can't cut it since it's not held taught, and wraps up the arrow, slowing it down over the space of a foot or so. But seeing the lockdown longbow have a crack at it would be interesting.
@@nongsom8159 When I said 'period appropriate' I meant feudal Japan appropriate, in which the Horo did well against them (as expected). Can't find any tests done with medieval warbows etc. Which is the reason I thought Tod should do some tests
@@oldtook9001 Sorry, I shouldn't have used the term war bow, since that term seems to be synonymous with the English medieval warbow. I also meant feudal Japan apporpriate in my question, because modern yumi are significantly thinner and weaker than the yumi that were used in feudal times, and I'm not aware of any Japanese bowyers currently making yumi in the draw weights that would have been used historically.
I don't think this was a wasted experiment or a gimmick or anything. I find this very interesting, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. For anyone who does write historical or fantasy fiction, does roleplaying game or design some videogames or anything along those lines, not mentioning all people interested in the history of weapons or warfare. That's exactly the type of content I would like to see more people doing, on more subjects and experiments.
I didn’t expect them to lose that much energy. I didn’t expect them to go through sandbags (in a previous video). I was shocked when they were deflected by medieval body armor (that blew my mind.Great armor!). Your a pretty enlightening fellow Tod. P.S. I’m glad you didn’t hurt the pool. We’d hate to lose you.
Some of it, I think, was the angle the arrows were impacting the boards. Seems the underwater ones were at a steeper angle, so I wouldn't use the 'poking through certain boards' measure. I would have preferred seeing the penetration depth measured from the arrow shaft. Regardless, this is fun stuff.
@@ericv00 Not to mention the angle the arrows hit the water would, I suspect, make a big difference. Reduce the angle enough and I bet you could skip the arrows off the surface.
I'd like to see a comparison between the Lockdown Longbow and a real longbow. As to if the Archers Paradox makes a difference. Hence the Lockdown Longbow not producing valid representative longbow results. I've never thought of this, before seeing the thumbnail of this video. Where I obviously misguidedly thought that, what it showed, was every other arrow hitting at a different 30ish degree angle. Somehow because of the Archers Paradox in water. Not remembering that they were shot by a crossbow. I love these videos. Keep them coming.
Wrapped in any kind of armour not drowning might well be the bigger worry than getting hit by arrows... And I would think gambeson is probably the worst for it - all those fibres sucking up water making it heavier and harder to move in. Be an interesting test still, but the ability to swim wasn't hugely common in history it seems, and swimming in armour I'd suggest is going to be a huge challenge and bigger threat to your life than an archer getting the parallax and arrow deflection just right to hit you..
@@foldionepapyrus3441 not sure, if gambeson would suck up a lot of water. As far as I know, the inner layers of gambeson were soaked in some kind of resin/glue to make them harder. Might be wrong about that however.
@@m.h.6470 Even better - a two for one test. First we get to see how well the arrows penetrate submerged gambeson and then use a luggage scale or something to see how much water weight the gambeson picked up :D
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Good points. I actually wonder of the effectiveness of the gambeson will be more compromised by soaking up water than the arrows velocity is reduced by the water and at what depth a lethal wound becomes survivable. Part of a gambeson's protective effect against piercing weapons is that it tends to bunch up. If you've ever handled a piece of wet linen, you know it doesn't move very easily and I expect it wouldn't bunch up much if at all, providing less protection than when dry. I'm very interested to see where this goes.
Maybe shoot length ways in the pool too so the arrows have to travel further in the water. I'm no expert free diver but I can free dive 15-20m when I'm on holiday, if someone was shooting arrows at me I'd make sure I was at least 3-4m below the surface... Would love to know if it would even break the skin at that depth
I think you need to update your intro: "Hi, I'm Todd, of Todd's Workshop, where Todd Has a Workshop, Todd Cutler, that is, which is me, that specific Todd, at the Workshop."
I would like to point out, that the angle the arrows hit the boards are different in the 2 situations, in the pool they hit from an angle not strait on - and just like in Tank designs with sloped armour - the arrows that hit at an angle are going through a thicker board (well more wood ). That should make a significant difference . But you could redo the test with a sloped dry board and se if that changes the results.
I've never loved a TH-cam series like this. Great job Tod! then I would like to add that I have received your antennae dagger. Simply gorgeous. Thank you very much, it's beautiful
To me outside of the important historical perspective, all of this is also really helpful for those who write fiction material be it books, games, movies etc. We seen people being shot with arrows under water in those for example and it is just great to know what can and cannot be done.
Great video. If I want to be a little picky, you have tested 2 adverse effect at the same time. Water that drag the arrow energy and impact angle (more wood to go throught especially for the last one). 30 to 40°angle mean roughly 15% to 30% wood to go through. But anyway, I think that water is the big effect on this one (to be 100% sur, just shoot at 40° in the air).
@@tods_workshop ok thanks for the reply. When you just have the video, it really seems that air arrows are almost perpendicular to the wood and water arrows are 30some degree from perdendicular. Talking about angle, what is the necessary angle to make the arrow deflected by a typical wooden shield could be a good lockdown longbow video. Does angle your shield give better survival chance?? But probably high chance to break arrows.
Interesting compared to the "Mythbusters" bullet through water episode that showed most high performance bullets disintegrated underwater. I would like to see another test with deeper water and a longer range.
Yeah. And that test by Tod was kind of meh... He should have installed some kind of ruler or a scale behind so that he could calculate arrow velocity and how it drops and plot it.Done like that, this experiment was kind of pointless.
thank you so much for these films Tod , helping to keep us all sane. What about some shots down the length of the pool to look at maximum killing range?
They did shoot bullets into water. The interesting thing when they did that was you are basically immune to bullets if you are more than a meter and a half under water as the bullets fragment and stop on impact with the water. The higher velocity of the shot they faster it breaks up. From this standpoint, you are better shooting arrows at someone underwater than a gun.
@@natehammar7353 you're basically immune to _supersonic_ bullets. Their tests did show that heavier, slower bullets were much less affected by water and able to kill at a much greater depth, which stongly hints at the results with arrows.
@@dynamicworlds1 exactly. The high velocity of supersonic rounds combined with the surface tension of the water was catastrophic for those bullets. Something much beefier but slower moving like a 45acp round does not fragment the same way. I remember the coolest shot was the 50cal which basically blew water everywhere but the bullet turned into sand. :)
@@natehammar7353 indeed, but an old fashioned brown bess would kill you. that fragmentation effect was rather surprising. i wonder however what would have happened if they had used something harder than full metal jacket, like a massive tungsden .50 BFG round....
I'm now really curious how far they can travel underwater (before they'd cease to be a threat at all - i.e. to open skin)? It is interesting that pistol bullets travel underwater more effectively than rifle bullets (because they don't yaw as easily)... and it looks like arrows might be quite hydrodynamically stable... they might actually do better than most bullets (despite the lower overall initial energy)!
Arrows work at a lower speed, and use fin stabilization rather than spin stabilization. Both factors should greatly reduce loss of performance underwater, although the projectile density is low . I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their performance was comparable to those underwater rifle thingies the US and USSR developed for frogmen.
Arrows go through sandbags much better than bullets, sand can be considered a fluid so I have no doubt they will do significantly better in water. Though other factors come into play - arrows probably float, and actually using a bow underwater would be very challenging I would think (if you are really trying to go full underwater - which increases the chances the bullets won't just turn to shrapnel at the water boundry). That said there is reason why spear guns are used underwater - and they are functionally highly comparable to bows, stored kinetic energy dumped into a long shaft...
Well this is hitting me right in the MythBusters norstalgia. This is so interesting and a good way of filing at least a part of the hole MythBusters left behind. Your Channel is lovely keep Up the good work
Keep on with it, these have been surprisingly insightful to see what happens for atleast myself via Tod's handiwork. Have been hooked since Arrows vs Armor, between yourself doing practical medieval and Joerg doing some tweaking on the innovation side it has been a fun mix of the world's of modern and traditional.
yeah.. in the middle ages they did too.. both stone bows and with arrows.. in the baltic they even used skippi ng water srrows for ducks and fish on the surface
Couple of points: The arrows went in at more of an angle than the dry test, so penetration was not quite comparable. Second, and on the flip side, refraction would be a thing if shooting from the bank, so better chance of a miss than on lsnd, not much in it, but anything is better than nothing when escaping!
Hi Tod - shooting arrows into the pool was fun and I am glad you did. You do know that people have used fishing arrows (pronged arrow heads with cordage and a reel attached to the bow) for a very long time.
Well, the thing about that is you need a rope or cable attached to it to get the fish back, and given the size of a lot of things in the deep sea you're going to need a bigger projectile, and that means we're going to need a launching system able to output more power than a human with a bow can do...at which point I think we just reinvented the harpoon gun. ;P
Another great video. This reminds me of bow fishing where people use bows are crossbows with tethered arrows that act like harpoons. I've never done it myself but the real trick is the accuracy. Even if you can see the bottom of the water you have the light displacement which you have to adjust for. Another possible test along this vein would be see how accuracy is affected by shooting in the water.
Thanks for the video. Just an interesting anecdote. IIRC Mythbusters tested shooting different caliber guns into a swimming pool and found something interesting. The lower velocity rounds performed better under water (traveled further) while the higher velocity rounds completely shattered and broke apart upon impact. So...if you're ever getting shot at by someone with a rifle or a 50 cal. just jump under water, you'll be fine!
That tail kick appears to be the only Achilles'' heel with your lockdown longbow; but it is only a problem at short ranges. The third arrow went through a lot more water (and hence drag) than the first two but still went most of the way through your substantial sterling OSB - certainly enough to wreck your day. The other thing that was on my mind was that it isn't only escaping prisoners that would end up in a medieval castle's moat. I'm thinking along the lines of latrines, kitchen waste, and pretty much everything else that people chuck into water. When the world returns to normal I would love to see you revisit this with Joe Gibbs (to remove the kick) and a modern firearm (comparison). Use a pool substitute unless you like eating beans on your own in a bedsit or you are planning on a new pool.
This lockdown series has been great! As a crossbow shooter, I'd love to see some comparisons of crossbows/bows of equal power; how do military crossbow bolts perform differently from long arrows? I know that there are many variables but it could still be kind of a fun exercise.
Anyone that has ever heard of “bow fishing” should know arrows do just fine into water. Bullets, on the other hand, break up in water and you’re relatively safe just a few feet underwater
"News report, a man was stabbed today, apparently with a variety of medieval knives and then shot, several times with what was called 'a lockdown longbow'. His wife has been arrested, apparently while trying to fix a damaged pool....."
interesting, especially as naval warfare frequently involved archers and crossbows as one of the main weapons. Of course, many medieval sailors couldn't swim, so this might be a tactic that only a few could use.
Conclusion; if you're escaping from a prison in 1410, hope against hope that all the guards on duty that night are gunners rather than longbowmen. Also, keep your legs straight when you hit the water.
Thanks for another great video! This is interesting in the same way as the result with the sandbags. I recall the mythbusters doing firearms testing in water, if I recall correctly they found that modern high velocity projectiles were less effective than slower heavier ones. Arrows fit that description, and as a bonus they've probably got quite a bit less drag for the equivalent weight.
Pretty sure shooting arrows into the water is the very definition of exploring the topic IN DEPTH! 😁😁 On a more serious note, I guess the next step in exploring the topic is to see what would happen to gambeson underwater. Would the arrows still be able to penetrate them or would the amount of energy lost tip the scale just enough for the wearer to be protected?
Another good video. One observation. The arrows shot through the air hit the boards more straight. The ones shot through the water hit the boards at an angle. Shooting through the boards on the diagonal slightly increases the depth of wood being penetrated. That plus the water may be effecting the results. Or not, just a thought.
Now I really wonder how rain would affect arrows, wet arrows, wet bow wood/string AND wet armor/clothing/shields. I doubt the rain itself would do anything, but the wetness surely would, no?
I saw a video regarding naval shell hits passing through water before hitting dreadnought hulls, which remarked the aerodynamic bullet shape was bad for water because the mass was in a short but wide shape that increased drag. I'm not surprised these arrows travelled well, since they have a lot of mass in a long rod just like torpedoes. I would imagine the fletching produces all the resistance. It is worth noting your angle of attack at the lowest shot was larger than higher up on the board.
Some years ago mythbusters did the same with rifles. And the results were quite spectacular. Even the heavy guns didn't penetrate very deep in the water.
I would argue that this IS an “in depth” video! I’m keen to see how deep you’d need to go underwater to be reasonably safe from a longbow, as well as how different arrowheads are affected by the same depth of water...
@Tod's Workshop Well it helps against getting strafed by aircraft machineguns (ref Hatcher's Notebook, 1947, page 408), so it should help against longbow arrows. (diving under 3.5 to 4 feet of water is reckoned enough.)
Thanks for the interesting video. The angle of impact in the water was very different(abaout 45 degrees) from the dry-shooting. So in addition to the waterresistance the arrows had to penetrate more material. You should use the same angle for both tests.
Was wondering how much diffrence that the angle the arrows hit the wood at would have effected the penatration. as at the beginning you shoot directly into the wood but in the water you are shooting down creating an angle that the arrow strikes the wood at. meaning the arrow has to punch through slightly more wood granted a small amount but would be nice to know how much it effected the penetration aswell as the water love these videos btw
Lets show a little appreciation for Tods wife. Tod has a beautiful mind, thank you for letting him share it with the rest of us. Happy Holidays, cheers!
I’ve got an old family friend who wanted to go carp shooting with his buddy but they forgot their bows but did have their shotguns and shot them like skeet when they jumped :D
Great stuff, I'd love to see you shoot longways in the pool and see if you can figure out how much water they'd have to pass through to become ineffective. Drag is much more intense in water than air (obvs) and drag also has an exponential relationship to speed. That's why Mythbusters found that lower energy bullets were more deadly than high powered rifles through water. It's interesting to see how the lower speed and higher mass (momentum) of the arrows affects things. I wonder how much the oscillation of the arrow through the air affects accuracy as well, I could see it deflecting if the tip is pointing in different directions on contact
Bow Fishing is a popular hobby in parts of America. I'm not sure if you guys across the pond have similar gear for this type of archery/fishing. I use a modern recurve with 55-lbs limb set and have no problem shooting Alligator Gar from elevated platform, making shots 10-20 yds away on fish 3-5 ft below water surface.
Thanks Tod for another interesting video. Maybe you shoot those same arrows into the plywood stack from further and further distances until you get the same penetration as you did when they were underwater. That would roughly tell you the distance equivalence between air drag and water drag. I could also imagine that you could do a chrono reading to work out the drop off in velocity (and hence KE) at this equivalent distance to tell you roughly what the change in KE is from punching through 1.5m water.
Sorry should say, shoot the stacks from increasing distances ( in the paddock). Then increase the range until you get the same penetration as you did underwater at 1.5m.
The trick is to wear lots of mail. Not only does it protect you from the slowed down arrows, but it also drags you down quicker, so you get more water between yourself and the arrows. I see no flaw in this and will not be accepting criticism on this plan.
And how do you swim back up before you run out of air?
Emperor Frederick I does not approve this message.
@@nunyabiznes33 He specified no criticism. Thank you.
No criticism and no further questions please. The matter has been resolved.
Welp, i guess that settles it.
Now, who's up for a swim?
my gues with jumping in the moat or pond when being shot at by bowmen, was moats and ponds are normally very cloady so they obscure vision. second there is the Paralax error to take into account., as water has different reflaction index than plain air does
what im getting at is, water might not stop the arrow enouth to take the punch out of it but it might obscure the vision enouth to make it more likely the bowman will miss, especially under night conditions.
My thoughts exactly- concealment but not exactly cover.
If we’re the bowman, I’d just wait until you crawled out and stumbled upon the far bank, lol
Agreed, I thought about that too!
@@roadhunter72 yupp, aspecially stuck in the bog you'd be an easy target.
Conclusion; if you're escaping from a prison in 1410, hope against hope that all the guards on duty that night are gunners rather than longbowmen. Also, keep your legs straight when you hit the water.
I think the guys on the rampart would just laugh, and wait for the guy to die a horrible death from the infections he would get from the moat.
Lockdown Longbow: let's test how lovely my wife is
I put a hole in my pool. Let's test how far an arrow shot by my wife passes through a Todd Cutler.
Sounds like something for another website.
thank you Tod's wife!
Todd bringing us some testing in the quarantine. Testing hypotheses related to medieval archery, AND his marriage. That's dedication.
Todd knows what’s up.
NEVER take an understanding wife for granted.
An understanding spouse is the preferred state. The trick is to know, that it's still not necessarily a permanent state.
For some reason my brain expected you to say "I have a moat"
Your actual words are much more reasonable.
He has, but just didn't want to flex about it.
That'll be for when he does an episode with Shad.
What is a pool but a rather short moat with dubious defensive qualities?
Meanwhile, i can't get over what an amazing backyard you have.
@gunnyblender 😂😂😂
For real Tods fucking loaded it seems. Good for him
For the next lockdown longbow video, I'd love to see you test out a Japanese 'Horo'. It was a big cloak worn by Samurai during the Feudal period. It was made out of several layers of cloth and would 'inflate' similar to a hot air balloon or parachute when the Samurai rode a horse. It protected the wearer from arrows shot from behind and side by 'catching' the arrows or slowing them down enough to cause only minimal damage.
"Ancient Discoveries" did an episode testing it (S06E08) and they found that it was pretty good at protecting the wearer. They, of course, used a bow and arrow types that were period appropriate for Fuedal Japan.
It would be interesting to see how the 'Horo' does against the lockdown longbow and some bodkins.
Love the channel.
Quick question, since I don't know where I can find the episode to watch it myself. Did they really use a period appropriate war bow with heavy arrows? I ask because in all the videos I've seen testing aspects of Japanese archery they always seem to use modern kyudō equipment with low draw weights, which I find to be very disappointing and not representative of what would have been used in war times. Like you, I would also love to see Tod test the concept.
yeah if a 3/4 inch poplar sheild dosnt stop arrows some silly balloon wont to anything
@@manchagojohnsonmanchago6367 Ehh I'm not disagreeing, but don't dismiss it out of hand: it's several tough layers of silk that are allowed to free float (at least in the versions that worked). Other videos that have focused on it in the past did show that they could stop arrows quite effectively - the arrow hits the silk but can't cut it since it's not held taught, and wraps up the arrow, slowing it down over the space of a foot or so. But seeing the lockdown longbow have a crack at it would be interesting.
@@nongsom8159 When I said 'period appropriate' I meant feudal Japan appropriate, in which the Horo did well against them (as expected). Can't find any tests done with medieval warbows etc. Which is the reason I thought Tod should do some tests
@@oldtook9001 Sorry, I shouldn't have used the term war bow, since that term seems to be synonymous with the English medieval warbow. I also meant feudal Japan apporpriate in my question, because modern yumi are significantly thinner and weaker than the yumi that were used in feudal times, and I'm not aware of any Japanese bowyers currently making yumi in the draw weights that would have been used historically.
The noise of the bolts entering the water - I want that for my notification sound!!
"On the *surface* it seems like a really pointless thing shooting arrows into water"
He said "surface". Hehe.😆
Followed up with "so there's going to be some more in depth ones..."
Using medieval type arrows really helps with the immersion.
fishing ?
BUT, if you just look a little deeper....
I don't think this was a wasted experiment or a gimmick or anything. I find this very interesting, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. For anyone who does write historical or fantasy fiction, does roleplaying game or design some videogames or anything along those lines, not mentioning all people interested in the history of weapons or warfare. That's exactly the type of content I would like to see more people doing, on more subjects and experiments.
Man I LOVE your videos
Im not him but I love your videos too
@@sephrah Thank you!
Hi Metatron! Nice to see you here. Love your stuff man ❤
I love these experiments with weapons and how they work under certain conditions. Thank you for the subtitles.
I didn’t expect them to lose that much energy. I didn’t expect them to go through sandbags (in a previous video). I was shocked when they were deflected by medieval body armor (that blew my mind.Great armor!). Your a pretty enlightening fellow Tod.
P.S. I’m glad you didn’t hurt the pool. We’d hate to lose you.
I was surprised by how much was lost
Some of it, I think, was the angle the arrows were impacting the boards. Seems the underwater ones were at a steeper angle, so I wouldn't use the 'poking through certain boards' measure. I would have preferred seeing the penetration depth measured from the arrow shaft. Regardless, this is fun stuff.
@@ericv00 Not to mention the angle the arrows hit the water would, I suspect, make a big difference. Reduce the angle enough and I bet you could skip the arrows off the surface.
This is something I've wanted to see tested for a while now. Thank you.
These videos really make me smile and improve me day while also being informative and awesome! :)
I'd like to see a comparison between the Lockdown Longbow and a real longbow. As to if the Archers Paradox makes a difference. Hence the Lockdown Longbow not producing valid representative longbow results.
I've never thought of this, before seeing the thumbnail of this video. Where I obviously misguidedly thought that, what it showed, was every other arrow hitting at a different 30ish degree angle. Somehow because of the Archers Paradox in water. Not remembering that they were shot by a crossbow.
I love these videos. Keep them coming.
The thing is: even a small child runs faster than how fast Michael Phelps swims. So If there were a choice, I'd take the land route.
Just wear heavy armor and run on the bottom of the moat, Best of both worlds.
Medieval problems call for medieval solutions [taps forehead]
@@DH-xw6jp hahahajahha
on the other hand. If i had to jump from the battlements, I'd rather land in the moat than on the ground. After that, running might be a good idea
you ain't trying to outrun michael phelps though, but an arrow
Someone's gotta follow this up by trying to shoot into a submerged ballastic gel wrapped in a gambeson.
Wrapped in any kind of armour not drowning might well be the bigger worry than getting hit by arrows... And I would think gambeson is probably the worst for it - all those fibres sucking up water making it heavier and harder to move in.
Be an interesting test still, but the ability to swim wasn't hugely common in history it seems, and swimming in armour I'd suggest is going to be a huge challenge and bigger threat to your life than an archer getting the parallax and arrow deflection just right to hit you..
@@foldionepapyrus3441 not sure, if gambeson would suck up a lot of water. As far as I know, the inner layers of gambeson were soaked in some kind of resin/glue to make them harder. Might be wrong about that however.
@@m.h.6470 Even better - a two for one test. First we get to see how well the arrows penetrate submerged gambeson and then use a luggage scale or something to see how much water weight the gambeson picked up :D
@@foldionepapyrus3441 Good points. I actually wonder of the effectiveness of the gambeson will be more compromised by soaking up water than the arrows velocity is reduced by the water and at what depth a lethal wound becomes survivable. Part of a gambeson's protective effect against piercing weapons is that it tends to bunch up. If you've ever handled a piece of wet linen, you know it doesn't move very easily and I expect it wouldn't bunch up much if at all, providing less protection than when dry. I'm very interested to see where this goes.
Maybe shoot length ways in the pool too so the arrows have to travel further in the water. I'm no expert free diver but I can free dive 15-20m when I'm on holiday, if someone was shooting arrows at me I'd make sure I was at least 3-4m below the surface... Would love to know if it would even break the skin at that depth
Next Tod’s Workshop tee shirt: Lockdown Longbow “Let’s just shoot stuff!”
Biggest Yee-Haww
@3xoterric -exoterric-
Be brave. Wear what you want when you want.
I would buy one on those!
@3xoterric -exoterric- for regular days, you need a shirt with an AR and AK in silhouette with the words "it's because I'm black, isn't it?" on it.
Science at work. Proving a point....quite literally. I love this stuff. Thank you Tod.
I think you need to update your intro: "Hi, I'm Todd, of Todd's Workshop, where Todd Has a Workshop, Todd Cutler, that is, which is me, that specific Todd, at the Workshop."
The poison for Kuzco; Kuzco's poison.
@@Vanastar This, right here... the most epic response ever!
I love the enthusiasm you have for explaining all the things in your videos!
"It's fun. Let's just shoot stuff."
Do you have a license for that frivolity?
Banned under the rule of damn you peasants
I assumed the licencor was out for the afternoon.
I would like to point out, that the angle the arrows hit the boards are different in the 2 situations, in the pool they hit from an angle not strait on - and just like in Tank designs with sloped armour - the arrows that hit at an angle are going through a thicker board (well more wood ). That should make a significant difference . But you could redo the test with a sloped dry board and se if that changes the results.
"Mum! There's a strange man shooting bits of wood in our pool!"
"Don't worry son, Tod's wife must have banned him again"
I've never loved a TH-cam series like this. Great job Tod! then I would like to add that I have received your antennae dagger. Simply gorgeous. Thank you very much, it's beautiful
"It's fun. Let's just shoot stuff." Indeed! You'd be right at home in the U.S. We'd be lucky to have you.
Indeed.
Here you could add medieval firearms to your testing repertoire.
To me outside of the important historical perspective, all of this is also really helpful for those who write fiction material be it books, games, movies etc. We seen people being shot with arrows under water in those for example and it is just great to know what can and cannot be done.
Great video. If I want to be a little picky, you have tested 2 adverse effect at the same time. Water that drag the arrow energy and impact angle (more wood to go throught especially for the last one). 30 to 40°angle mean roughly 15% to 30% wood to go through. But anyway, I think that water is the big effect on this one (to be 100% sur, just shoot at 40° in the air).
I set the angle to be the same from both shots and took into consideration I was shooting down and into the pool
@@tods_workshop ok thanks for the reply. When you just have the video, it really seems that air arrows are almost perpendicular to the wood and water arrows are 30some degree from perdendicular.
Talking about angle, what is the necessary angle to make the arrow deflected by a typical wooden shield could be a good lockdown longbow video. Does angle your shield give better survival chance?? But probably high chance to break arrows.
Interesting, especially when comparing it to bullets and how water affects them. Mythbusters(episode 34) tests this exactly with a ranger of calibers.
I ended up building a pole lathe to haft your mace! Thanks for the amazing project. I posted a quick video for anyone interested.
I love that aI attitude - well done
"It's fun, let's just shoot stuff" is the best saying ever. :)
On a more related note, didn't Burt Reynolds fish with a bow and arrow in Deliverance?
So damn fun. Some of my favorite content on TH-cam.
IIRC the soviet APS underwater rifle that fired 120mm long steel darts. I imagine the long arrows kept them pretty stable in the water
Never heard of it - that sounds very interesting
So it makes sense how Isildur died then.
I absolutely love the lockdown longbow videos. So informative and interesting and thought provoking. Keep up the good work.
Interesting compared to the "Mythbusters" bullet through water episode that showed most high performance bullets disintegrated underwater.
I would like to see another test with deeper water and a longer range.
Yeah. And that test by Tod was kind of meh... He should have installed some kind of ruler or a scale behind so that he could calculate arrow velocity and how it drops and plot it.Done like that, this experiment was kind of pointless.
thank you so much for these films Tod , helping to keep us all sane. What about some shots down the length of the pool to look at maximum killing range?
the one thing i wanted mythbusters to do... Thank you for this!
They did shoot bullets into water. The interesting thing when they did that was you are basically immune to bullets if you are more than a meter and a half under water as the bullets fragment and stop on impact with the water. The higher velocity of the shot they faster it breaks up.
From this standpoint, you are better shooting arrows at someone underwater than a gun.
@@natehammar7353 yes, I had thought of @ them to try and get them to do a follow up on "bulletproof myths" with arrowproof myths... never happened...
@@natehammar7353 you're basically immune to _supersonic_ bullets.
Their tests did show that heavier, slower bullets were much less affected by water and able to kill at a much greater depth, which stongly hints at the results with arrows.
@@dynamicworlds1 exactly. The high velocity of supersonic rounds combined with the surface tension of the water was catastrophic for those bullets. Something much beefier but slower moving like a 45acp round does not fragment the same way.
I remember the coolest shot was the 50cal which basically blew water everywhere but the bullet turned into sand. :)
@@natehammar7353 indeed, but an old fashioned brown bess would kill you.
that fragmentation effect was rather surprising.
i wonder however what would have happened if they had used something harder than full metal jacket, like a massive tungsden .50 BFG round....
Lovely garden Todd looks very cosy
I'm now really curious how far they can travel underwater (before they'd cease to be a threat at all - i.e. to open skin)? It is interesting that pistol bullets travel underwater more effectively than rifle bullets (because they don't yaw as easily)... and it looks like arrows might be quite hydrodynamically stable... they might actually do better than most bullets (despite the lower overall initial energy)!
Arrows work at a lower speed, and use fin stabilization rather than spin stabilization. Both factors should greatly reduce loss of performance underwater, although the projectile density is low . I wouldn't be surprised to learn that their performance was comparable to those underwater rifle thingies the US and USSR developed for frogmen.
They do better then 50 CAL sniper rifle.
@@LinardsZ LOL i remember that episode of Mythbusters
Arrows go through sandbags much better than bullets, sand can be considered a fluid so I have no doubt they will do significantly better in water. Though other factors come into play - arrows probably float, and actually using a bow underwater would be very challenging I would think (if you are really trying to go full underwater - which increases the chances the bullets won't just turn to shrapnel at the water boundry). That said there is reason why spear guns are used underwater - and they are functionally highly comparable to bows, stored kinetic energy dumped into a long shaft...
@@ButterBallTheOpossum yes
Thank you , Tod .
Great stuff as usual, and pass on our thanks to your lovely wife for allowing to test in the name of science. 😁
And she maintained her lovelyness.
Absolutely great content ! Luv the stuff your doing ! Thanks Tod ! Pls, keep it coming. Big fan over here in the states. M.R. boston, ma
Well this is hitting me right in the MythBusters norstalgia. This is so interesting and a good way of filing at least a part of the hole MythBusters left behind. Your Channel is lovely keep Up the good work
Keep on with it, these have been surprisingly insightful to see what happens for atleast myself via Tod's handiwork. Have been hooked since Arrows vs Armor, between yourself doing practical medieval and Joerg doing some tweaking on the innovation side it has been a fun mix of the world's of modern and traditional.
I guess a lot of people don't realize but here in the United States we use Bows and arrows for fishing
yeah.. in the middle ages they did too.. both stone bows and with arrows.. in the baltic they even used skippi ng water srrows for ducks and fish on the surface
Couple of points: The arrows went in at more of an angle than the dry test, so penetration was not quite comparable. Second, and on the flip side, refraction would be a thing if shooting from the bank, so better chance of a miss than on lsnd, not much in it, but anything is better than nothing when escaping!
I set the angle to be the same from both shots and took into consideration I was shooting down and into the pool
Stopped playing Cyberpunk to watch some Medievalpunk :-D
Hi Tod - shooting arrows into the pool was fun and I am glad you did. You do know that people have used fishing arrows (pronged arrow heads with cordage and a reel attached to the bow) for a very long time.
"Made a really dramatic difference." Probably not to the poor sod on the receiving end.
I absolutely love learning things like this. Keep up the good work.
Deep sea fishing with a longbow when?
Deep sea fishing with a longbow? You mean shooting arrows into the see and hoping a cranky fish will come up to see who's been littering?
@@daanwilmer yes
@@daanwilmer
*sea not see.
2 different things.
@@Dirtbag-Hyena he did write sea in the beginning, so the see in the middle is obv just a typo :P
Well, the thing about that is you need a rope or cable attached to it to get the fish back, and given the size of a lot of things in the deep sea you're going to need a bigger projectile, and that means we're going to need a launching system able to output more power than a human with a bow can do...at which point I think we just reinvented the harpoon gun. ;P
Another great video. This reminds me of bow fishing where people use bows are crossbows with tethered arrows that act like harpoons. I've never done it myself but the real trick is the accuracy. Even if you can see the bottom of the water you have the light displacement which you have to adjust for. Another possible test along this vein would be see how accuracy is affected by shooting in the water.
I want a lockdown longbow, not for good reasons just... cause
I would say that's a good reason :D
well, lockdown is certainly here already, just the longbow part is missing..!
There's a video Tod made March or April of this year on how to make your own simple crossbow.
That reason is about half of my collection of things. I got these things just because...
I have so many things because I wanted them and that is reason enough I think
Thanks for the video. Just an interesting anecdote. IIRC Mythbusters tested shooting different caliber guns into a swimming pool and found something interesting. The lower velocity rounds performed better under water (traveled further) while the higher velocity rounds completely shattered and broke apart upon impact. So...if you're ever getting shot at by someone with a rifle or a 50 cal. just jump under water, you'll be fine!
If the arrows don't get you. Then the alligators will. And if you can escape the alligators then the piranhas will eat you.
Defense in depth. Ha
Don't forget the tigers on the other coast! And the old ogres in the forest that follows :D
You have your workshop, that large yard and a swimming pool? You are living the dream for most of us younger folk.
After the sandbag video, I'm wiser to what will happen. Cavitation in a straight line.
I think we all owe Mrs. Tod a big thank-you for allowing you to do this! 😆 Good content as always.
Next experiment: How far can I go until my wife takes away my lockdown longbow?
"How many lounge cushions will a type 9 go through?"
What about: Hunting the armored house cat/dog?
He always answers the burning questions i never thought id have.
That tail kick appears to be the only Achilles'' heel with your lockdown longbow; but it is only a problem at short ranges. The third arrow went through a lot more water (and hence drag) than the first two but still went most of the way through your substantial sterling OSB - certainly enough to wreck your day. The other thing that was on my mind was that it isn't only escaping prisoners that would end up in a medieval castle's moat. I'm thinking along the lines of latrines, kitchen waste, and pretty much everything else that people chuck into water. When the world returns to normal I would love to see you revisit this with Joe Gibbs (to remove the kick) and a modern firearm (comparison). Use a pool substitute unless you like eating beans on your own in a bedsit or you are planning on a new pool.
This lockdown series has been great! As a crossbow shooter, I'd love to see some comparisons of crossbows/bows of equal power; how do military crossbow bolts perform differently from long arrows? I know that there are many variables but it could still be kind of a fun exercise.
The bottom arrow went through a little more water.
that was the point... he said so in the video, as he shoots that last arrow.
It also hit the wood at a steeper angle, which means it effectively went though more wood as well.
Thank you Tod x
Anyone that has ever heard of “bow fishing” should know arrows do just fine into water. Bullets, on the other hand, break up in water and you’re relatively safe just a few feet underwater
Here in Noth Carolina, bow fishing is very popular for catching flounder.
"News report, a man was stabbed today, apparently with a variety of medieval knives and then shot, several times with what was called 'a lockdown longbow'. His wife has been arrested, apparently while trying to fix a damaged pool....."
interesting, especially as naval warfare frequently involved archers and crossbows as one of the main weapons.
Of course, many medieval sailors couldn't swim, so this might be a tactic that only a few could use.
Against bullets it would work but against arrows NNNOOOOOOO
Conclusion; if you're escaping from a prison in 1410, hope against hope that all the guards on duty that night are gunners rather than longbowmen. Also, keep your legs straight when you hit the water.
@@rogerramiussergeialexander5541 YES
Kudos to Mrs. Cutler for allowing Tod (and through extension all of us) to have a bit of fun!
Cutler isn't Tod's surname.
Thanks for another great video!
This is interesting in the same way as the result with the sandbags. I recall the mythbusters doing firearms testing in water, if I recall correctly they found that modern high velocity projectiles were less effective than slower heavier ones. Arrows fit that description, and as a bonus they've probably got quite a bit less drag for the equivalent weight.
That WAS fun!
Thanks again!
Interesting.. I always didn't know if I should believe those stories.. Thanks for the info man!
Pretty sure shooting arrows into the water is the very definition of exploring the topic IN DEPTH! 😁😁
On a more serious note, I guess the next step in exploring the topic is to see what would happen to gambeson underwater. Would the arrows still be able to penetrate them or would the amount of energy lost tip the scale just enough for the wearer to be protected?
Another good video. One observation. The arrows shot through the air hit the boards more straight. The ones shot through the water hit the boards at an angle. Shooting through the boards on the diagonal slightly increases the depth of wood being penetrated. That plus the water may be effecting the results. Or not, just a thought.
This was rather interesting, I did wonder if it would help. Big thanks to your lovely wife for allowing you to play in the pool.
Now I really wonder how rain would affect arrows, wet arrows, wet bow wood/string AND wet armor/clothing/shields. I doubt the rain itself would do anything, but the wetness surely would, no?
This is one of those things that I didn't realize I wanted to know. Quality work and testing as always!
Thank your wife for me!
I saw a video regarding naval shell hits passing through water before hitting dreadnought hulls, which remarked the aerodynamic bullet shape was bad for water because the mass was in a short but wide shape that increased drag. I'm not surprised these arrows travelled well, since they have a lot of mass in a long rod just like torpedoes. I would imagine the fletching produces all the resistance.
It is worth noting your angle of attack at the lowest shot was larger than higher up on the board.
As usual, another fantastic video, love your work!
Brilliant, never seen an arrow water test before only bullets 👍
Some years ago mythbusters did the same with rifles. And the results were quite spectacular. Even the heavy guns didn't penetrate very deep in the water.
Which is why Navy Seals swim a prescribed depth.
That's a really lovely garden you have, Tod. And an excellent video as always :) Cheers!
I would argue that this IS an “in depth” video!
I’m keen to see how deep you’d need to go underwater to be reasonably safe from a longbow, as well as how different arrowheads are affected by the same depth of water...
@Tod's Workshop Well it helps against getting strafed by aircraft machineguns (ref Hatcher's Notebook, 1947, page 408), so it should help against longbow arrows. (diving under 3.5 to 4 feet of water is reckoned enough.)
Thanks for the interesting video.
The angle of impact in the water was very different(abaout 45 degrees) from the dry-shooting.
So in addition to the waterresistance the arrows had to penetrate more material.
You should use the same angle for both tests.
Was wondering how much diffrence that the angle the arrows hit the wood at would have effected the penatration.
as at the beginning you shoot directly into the wood but in the water you are shooting down creating an angle that the arrow strikes the wood at.
meaning the arrow has to punch through slightly more wood granted a small amount but would be nice to know how much it effected the penetration aswell as the water love these videos btw
I set the angle to be the same from both shots and took into consideration I was shooting down and into the pool
Thanks for taking the time to respond and i look forward to future content
A tolerant wife is critical to most scientific endeavors... Super awesome for us you have one!!!
"on the surface..." That pun, intended or not, did not go amiss !
Lets show a little appreciation for Tods wife.
Tod has a beautiful mind, thank you for letting him share it with the rest of us.
Happy Holidays, cheers!
Bow fishing is very popular here. Usually shoot carp.
I’ve got an old family friend who wanted to go carp shooting with his buddy but they forgot their bows but did have their shotguns and shot them like skeet when they jumped :D
Neat experiment. Also, you have an absolutely lovely garden.
Great stuff, I'd love to see you shoot longways in the pool and see if you can figure out how much water they'd have to pass through to become ineffective.
Drag is much more intense in water than air (obvs) and drag also has an exponential relationship to speed. That's why Mythbusters found that lower energy bullets were more deadly than high powered rifles through water. It's interesting to see how the lower speed and higher mass (momentum) of the arrows affects things. I wonder how much the oscillation of the arrow through the air affects accuracy as well, I could see it deflecting if the tip is pointing in different directions on contact
Thanks for all your work, and risk-taking, Tod! =-P
Bow Fishing is a popular hobby in parts of America. I'm not sure if you guys across the pond have similar gear for this type of archery/fishing. I use a modern recurve with 55-lbs limb set and have no problem shooting Alligator Gar from elevated platform, making shots 10-20 yds away on fish 3-5 ft below water surface.
Thanks Tod for another interesting video. Maybe you shoot those same arrows into the plywood stack from further and further distances until you get the same penetration as you did when they were underwater. That would roughly tell you the distance equivalence between air drag and water drag. I could also imagine that you could do a chrono reading to work out the drop off in velocity (and hence KE) at this equivalent distance to tell you roughly what the change in KE is from punching through 1.5m water.
Sorry should say, shoot the stacks from increasing distances ( in the paddock). Then increase the range until you get the same penetration as you did underwater at 1.5m.