@@tods_workshopit was an amazing build my friend, I am so happy to see this with your high speed cameras, these results were truly spectacular. Keep being amazing.
Allways a joy to see you work with Tod. Never really comprehended the effort and training it takes to be a longbowman before I saw you do it with these +120lb bows. I knew the specs but this grounds it into reality! Great video! ^^
Huge respect! Thank you for helping tod make these amazing and highly educational films. I try to imagine how medieval soldiers would speak about your feat. Some would probably not even believe the tale.
And not useless either. Pressing out air in your lungs while keeping your mouth shut increases the pressure in the lungs and forces more oxygen into your blood. This way he can use a lot of power for a very short timeframe while staying conscious.
Seeing how closely his pose matches what we see in historical illustrations was kind of mind blowing, you see the funny looking people and assume it's just poorly done but in fact it's dead accurate. Made me look at all of it differently.
In the previous Arrows Versus Armor video there's no shortage of "experts" in archery critiquing Joe's stance, and you can tell when they're lightweights who never shot a real war bow or a monster like this one, because they have no idea how much you need to engage every muscle in the body to draw these beasts..
@@Peptuck Not even talking about shooting a behemoth of a bow like Joe shoots, try lifting 50kg of the floor without tightening your core and muscles. Maybe a beast like Eddy Hall can do that, but 99% of people will just tear something, or at least feel they are doing something very very wrong
As someone who regularly lifts stuff from floor height. You're hard pressed to do any weight without engaging your core a little just to keep yourself from falling down.
I remember trying to pull a long bow - in the modern manor - at the Mary Rose museum and thinking "F... Me, you gotta have some muscles to pull this thing". Joe's posture and explanation makes perfect sense. Obviously still need to build up the strength!
I'm so glad that you took the time to address the safety concerns with just letting him loose on a new bow type and did so visibly. I'm sure a lot of people, maybe even Tod himself, would say "of course!" but a lot of channels (YT and TV) would not to try to milk the disparity for content.
One thing that I have been wondering. Archeological digs had discovered in medieval graves the bones of men that they originally thought were deformed. Then it was concluded that these were archers and the 'deformities' were actually physical changes in their bone structure due to constant practice at shooting longbows. Has anyone investigated whether Joe and other longbow shooters have also had similar changes in their bone structure?
I think it's also related to a, supposedly, old english saying: "If you want a good longbowman, start with his grandfather." meaning it took generations to build up a really good longbow archer.
Thank you for giving Joe handshakes from all of us. That was absolutely epic. I love the idea of modifying it to make it more tuned to Joe's technique! Joe seems incredibly humble; like a real knight would be. Shows up in jeans and work boots. Breaks a world record unofficially. Bad ass.
I love how honest and humble you are, Tod. Little mistakes happen, and the video is still absolute class because of your humility. Seeing Joe struggle that much with the draw weight just illustrates how powerful that bow really is. All that potential energy is scary!
@@tods_workshop Yeah but you admitted the mistake and corrected it. As my PhD adviser once put it, "admitting when we're wrong is what separates scientists from politicians."
What a cracking release Joe has. Even on the compound. Brilliant video gents. You've settled an ongoing discussion I've been having with my compound shooting friend for a while now. Keep up the fantastic work.
I believe Tod always states "160lbs" as it's Joe's "I can shoot this all day" comfortable draw weight, but I just want to bring up that the man can shoot 210lb. I know he isn't going to be able to shoot that all day, but I feel like the man needs some praise for that lol
When I visited Agincourt at the museum they have a 130lb long bow simulator - its like trying to pull a guidewire for an aerial mast or something. It moves about 3 inches and then just DOES NOT MOVE - its solid
Joe is not only an amazing longbowman and good sport, he's also a great "character" on screen. You guys did a good job of sharing the talking time which made for an even more interesting video.
He really is. Both Joe and the Javelin lad (Michael, maybe? I forget) are such joys to have on camera. They clearly don't have much experience on camera yet but they are honest, great at their fields and just genuinely likeable blokes. They are such a great addition to this channel, what a time to be alive to be able to witniss this.
@@BoarhideGaming I also think Tod is growing as a host. People think being a host is easy - you just get on screen and talk - but making this feel natural to the viewer takes real skill. When the guest looks good, this is a credit both to the guest and the host. I think the situation with Michael is a good example. The later videos with him were much better than the early ones. Perhaps Michael got more comfortable on camera, but Tod also started giving him more space to fill, and drew him into that space - so it felt more like a dialog. Good stuff Tod.
This was interesting, educational and fun to watch, which is why I love this channel . Thank you very much to both of you and to the off screen people involved in the video 👍🏻
You know, you say this is pointless, but as a fantasy writer I find this incredibly useful and interesting information that gives me some great ideas. For instance, a magical bow that amplifies the strength of the draw would probably require bigger and heavier arrows to bring out its power, and won't be much more effective without the right kind of ammunition. And if I need that bow to be powerful enough to punch through plate armor, it probably needs to generate at least maybe three times the momentum of a mundane bow of the same draw weight, since this bow was 1.6x the momentum and did not achieve a lethal shot. All potentially very useful worldbuilding information.
Armor penetration boils down to three things, minimal cross section to increase impact PSI, high speed, and lots of kinetic energy. You need all three to be successful. If you could come up with a rare metal or alloy (like JRR did with mithril) that was really dense and hard to make a needle thin penetrating point, and then some rare wood or legendary animal bone for the shaft that was able to handle the high draw weight of a magic bow, then you'd have a nice blend of fantasy and science to produce a super thin arrow with a lot of mass for penetrating even the toughest armor.
that's niche and you know it,most people aren't writers...of any kind. that's like me saying it inspired a poem, not many people write poetry nowadays.
was thinking the same thing. I actually have a very rough draft for a fantasy book where this amplification is a thing, but I wasn't sure how it would matter and at what points. This give fantastic datapoints. A pow that is multiplying power into the 130-160 lb draw range won't defeat a breastplate headon, but given the other arrow vs armor video about weaker points of armor it would be very dangerous against those.
@@bloodlove93What’s your point, exactly? The vast majority of fantasy *readers* are far more sophisticated than in past years, requiring the fantasy elements to be self-consistent and subject to rules just as mundane physics is. A wise author takes this into account when writing. For example, in his Discworld books, Sir Pterry had his students at Unseen University learning telekinesis also learn that they were jthe fulcrums of the magical forces they were wielding, and if they got the angles wrong they risked flipping their brain out of their ear. What the OP suggests is perfectly reasonable in a fantasy setting. There might exist say a common set of weight- or momentum- altering spells used for day to day tasks from carrying buckets of water to unloading cargo ships, and some bright boy has the idea to apply it to arrows… or catapult loads… And of course the mundane physical properties of the bow and arrow (and string) materials would come into play unless you wanted to magic all of the components, but stacking spells typically leads to unfortunate interactions.
@@markfergerson2145 Modern social behavior is far too concerned with appearance of maturity, and disregard for anything deemed childlike. Play is important. When generals simulate their wargames, it is play. The most devious military paradigms have come from play. It is a powerful tool in every profession in some way. Two men in a field do not have better things to be doing than inspiring creative thinking. Arguing otherwise is very reductive. I would be proud to find reference to my own findings within a new generation of fiction.
Joe is a monster and an awesome man for taking this on. I love how excited Tod is when his friends achieve new things. All around an awesome achievement and video! Great work guys!
I love how humble Joe is, he takes the cheeky remarks like a champ and always delivers on the set. Would love to see body builders or rock climbers try to learn how to shoot this bow.
Joe is obviously a very strong and fit individual, but he still looks like a human being. What a contrast to the posing body builders with their over developed physiques.
body builders focus on the "aesthetic of muscles" a lot more. And the type of lifts they do are completely different muscle groups. No doubt there are some overlap but they likely won't be able to go 160-210 like Joe can. That needs training, for both the proper stance and the muscle groups to work together. They might have a easier time than the average person since they already have a lot of muscles and physical training and don't need to start from scratch
@@neurofiedyamato8763For sure, the muscle sets Joe uses are very different. The way he is using them is different. I can tell he's a well built guy, not a bodybuilder but definitely muscular. Like the prime example of a good soldier's physique.
Makes you wonder how well Eddy Hall would do with Heavy Bow shooting. Lack of muscles wouldn't be a problem (after all he deadlifted over 1100lbs) but could he apply them in the right way?
Awesome! Certainly be hellacious bruising from that big tip shot. LOL! Incredible seeing those CF shafts hold up like they did. Would be fascinating to see what kind of microscopic damage was done. Perhaps EK has or would get a sample inspected to see. Heck of a bragging point for the quality. Thanks to all that made this vid possible. Especially Joe!
Tod, it would be fascinating to see you actually repair that breastplate using medieval technologies, hammering it out, somehow mending the holes, then test out if mending the armor actually weakens it. That's would make for an excellent film.
@@tods_workshop some repairs may be forge welds, not sure for a breastplate with pinholes though, likely would depend on who is repairing it in what era excetra.
I didn’t even think the arrow was going to survive the release. The way it was flexing during the shot shows it was so close to its limit. The guy is an animal tho ! Beautiful looking broad head to
Wrong draw length, bad technique, irresponsible initial set up, wrong arrow set up and more, Thoroughly dangerous experiment. Total respect for Joes long bow achievements. There was so much wrong with this episode I'm shocked they put it out there. Tod has made so many excellent videos I'm not knocking that. But, as an archer, this is not a good example to anyone. Irresponsible post
It also has some historical relevance when a record breaking bow is still not powerful enough to do significant dmg to a knight if it were to hit him in the breastplate, meaning any bows from that era had no chance against plate armor, which many people on the internet has the misconception that bows could penetrate plate armor.
It does depend on quality and where as different parts of the armour were different thicknesses, but I also hit this breastplate with rocket assisted arrows in another film and they were generating around 400J if I remember right and they still were not going right through the breastplate
@@tods_workshop apologies if you've mentioned it before, but is the breastplate hardened and if so, what range of carbon content? If this is basically wrought iron then I'm even more impressed.
Well, but we also saw that even the light arrow went through chainmail like it was nothing, and the helmet got some deep penetration as well (enough to hurt I guess). So yes, you are not likely to kill, but hitting arms/legs or mail parts (and if you shoot enough arrows, this at some point gets likely) will sound somebody enough to make them a far less dangerous fighter still (and maybe kill them later via infection). So even with the best armour, advancing on a block of archera is still dangerous
Brilliant! Excellent! Love the video. Joe is not human and is amazing to watch. As a longbow and compound bow archer, this video was fascinating. Very interesting to read the results at the end - arrow weight v's draw weight. Thanks for taking the time and effort to bring this to us.
I tried a 100lb bow once.. And I couldnt get it past 1/3 draw.. and im not a small Man... To do 130 on a compound is absolutely nuts.. nuts.. Compounds are very very touchy about alignment, if you pull one back wrong it can easily roll the string off the cams and before you know whats what, the bow is in pieces and your probably in pain... I just can't believe he was able to haul that back and keep it aligned and then bang off a shot... Kudos to EK archery for making a bow that strong too.. Thats serious engineering..
that is an amazing achievement! well done, gentlemen! 15 years ago, when i was regularly shooting recurve bows, i had the opportunity to draw (and let down, not fire) a 70-lb draw Hoyt compound, so i can relate how that felt to me (my recurve is normally fit with 37-lb limbs). cheers!
Joe is strong as hell and I love these videos. Keep them coming. I dont know what we need to do but I want to see that hypothetical bow discussed at the end. Lets get it going.
A small but expensive suggestion, have a machine shop run up some points for the super bow out of tungsten, and tungsten carbide. Tungsten is 2.45 times as dense as iron, you get exactly the same weight as the arrow head you used in the video with a MUCH smaller cross section. I would bet a lot of money it punches right thru. Tungsten carbide is a little less dense, but even harder. It might also be to brittle, but while you are making an expensive order at the machine shop you might as well go all in. It was also fascinating to see a an arrow that just bounced off of the breast plate go right the the chain mail. that was a really interesting detail
also depends on your hobbies and training, if he'd have shot compound for a long time those muscles would be stronger than the ones he has from traditional archery.
@@bloodlove93that wouldn’t effect the physics behind the compound bow. As long as he gets it to the full draw, which he did, his technique or strength won’t effect the way the arrow is loosed (save for accuracy). It’s down to the materials and pulley system at that point.
Now if Joe changed the cams on the compound then he could get a different let off power curve, my bow which is about half the draw weight has different cams that give you different power curves.
@Specter_1125 You can train muscles at different parts of range of motions. IE: Chains on a barbell (higher resistance to lower resistance), resistance bands (lighter resistance to higher resistance), isometric at different ROM, etc. If Joe shot only/mostly compound bows instead of traditional bows, Joe would be a lot "stronger" at the lower ROM of the draw and probably not as strong relatively at full ROM. And where did he say anything about the physics of the arrow? He was talking about the draw curve being "more difficult" because it would require strength in an uncommon spot in the ROM, which no one probably trains for.
@@CowsGoMonkey While you can train the muscles more at different points in the range of motion, there are still the fundamentals of biomechanics at play - leverage and tension, and the difference in size/strength of the muscles used i.e. tricep/posterior deltoid (relatively smaller muscles engaged more in early part of draw) versus latissimus dorsi/trapezius (relatively larger muscles engaged more towards full extension).
Amazing work from both of you. Huge respect to Jo for that Herculean effort and skill, and to Tod for his insightful engineering mind. And of course to the mad German; I loved the excerpt of his catchphrase! Great work all round, thank you so much!
WOW. Not that it really surprises me, since Joerg Sprave is a bow enthusiast, always looking for the "next step" - but I still tip my hat for Joerg for reaching out. This is massively interesting. GREAT work, everybody. GREAT video 👍
I laughed so hard when I saw that you had to lengthen the arrow because you mounted the whisker biscuit the wrong way round. It ain't easy being medieval. 😂
@@tods_workshop I always knew from your videos you are a perfectionist. Don't torture yourself over it, you are doing absolutely amazing things. I know that feeling 😬
@@StucklnAWell For sure! Normal draw length has your hand by your jaw line / ear and his hand was behind his head before it let off. I wonder if they kept it that way to try and more closely match the draw length of a longbow...
Really cool video! It looked like from the slow mo that those super heavy arrows for the 131 pound compound were not tuned well. I bet if they were tuned well “if thats even possible” lol they would transfer much more energy and go through that armor. Really enjoyed thanks!
This is hilariously awesome, Tod. Great video prompt. Looks like the 70lb Compound bow might actually be a good analog for a 100-120lb longbow. Video idea, can you make a compound bow with medieval materials and methods? Be cool to see how you'd go about implementing the cams and making a compound crossbow prod. Also, I think it is really interesting seeing the ballistics table at the end starting at 30:43. The current prevailing philosophy amongst modern compound bow hunters is that lightweight arrows are better (if using a heavy poundage bow) than heavier arrows because the faster arrow which results in a flatter trajectory which allows for increased accuracy at longer range, and also it gives the animal less time to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge. However, a sizeable minority opinion is still that a heavier arrow is better because even though you are "lobbing logs" and need to get closer you gain additional silence from more efficient energy transfer between the bow & arrow, and the increase in momentum especially will make it so even hard surfaces like an elk's shoulder blades can be defeated while also potentially justifying a lower poundage because of the increases to energy + momentum. Looks like your results are consistent with that. The 70lb compound bow was shooting 5.3 GPP arrows over 100 fps faster than it was shooting the 17.4 GPP arrows, but with around 30 fewer Js and basically half the momentum. Always cool to see 70LBS COMPOUND BOW: - 65% faster using lightweight 5.3 GPP arrows - 25% more kinetic energy (J or Ft/Lbs) using heavy 17.4 GPP arrows - 102% more momentum (kg.m/s or lb.fts/s) using heavy 17.4 GPP arrows LIMB EFFICIENCY: - Assuming 1.45 Ft/Lbs of stored energy per lbs of draw weight (S.E./P.D.F ratio), the 70lbs compound bow has ~100 ft/lbs of potential energy. - The 32g Arrow (5.3 GPP) outputs ~69 ft/lbs on average making the bow ~69% efficient with that arrow. - The 79g Arrow (17.4 GPP) outputs ~85 ft/lbs on average making the bow ~85% efficient with that arrow.
Thanks for that analysis - really interesting stuff in here. I have been pondering for a while making a medieval compound crossbow with some stupid high poundage, but not yet.
Indoors I use heavy aluminium shaft arrows they chronograph at 260ft/s and the target knows it has been hit, outdoors I use carbon shafted arrows which are much lighter and chrono at 302ft/s they tend to just go right through the target, my garage door can testify to that. The heavier arrow delivers more energy in to the target where the lighter arrow expends some of it's energy on the middle distance behind the target. I have been shooting bows since I was about 10 years old.
Amazing video guys, you really showed the limit of the materials in the compound bow. Limits which most people could never hope to find, I might add. You also show why the knight in full plate was the king of the battlefield, until the advent of firearms.
24:00 That shot of the just plain field point going through two layers of mail and archery foam and how difficult it was to try and get it out again just goes to show how much protection you get from plate and how little protection you get from chainmail from a fairly stout bow. Wow! It went through it like butter!
But as you saw the ring caught and snagged the arrow after it partly passed through it and the expansion of the ring and shrinkage of arrow. No broken rings as far as could see
Different purposes. Chainmail was not made to protect against small piercing attacks (like from projectiles), but against cutting and to a lesser extent stabbing attacks from spears/swords (as they tend to have a larger end which is harder to generate enough force to penetrate like that arrow did).
A hit unlikely to kill a night directly. But infection of battle wounds was a major issue until recently. And even without infection an arrow shaft through through the arm like that will remove the knight from the field.
Just talking about the energy, 240J is putting you in the realm of some modern bullets; not rounds that are thought of as powerful, mind, but we're only talking about the energy there - not the momentum. Bullets are very light, going damn fast, meaning energy can be very impressive, but momentum, less so. This arrow from this bow will have a shocking amount of momentum. To give some quick comparisons to show the differences (bare in mind each of these calibres have a lot of variety, these are just random examples): - A .22lr 2.6 g bullet going at 370 m/s has 178 J of energy and 0.96 kg·m/s of momentum - A 9x19mm 7.45 g bullet going at 360 m/s has 481 J of energy and 2.6 kg·m/s of momentum - A 7.62x39mm 8 g bullet going at 738 m/s has 2,179 J of energy and 5.9 kg·m/s of momentum - A 7.62x51mm 10 g bullet going at 850 m/s has 3,470 J of energy and 8.5 kg·m/s of momentum So you have to look to some hefty rifle rounds before you start seeing the kind of momentum that this arrow had (7.45 kg·m/s). Not to say it's more deadly than, well, most bullets, but it's kind of a cool practical demonstration of the relationship between energy and momentum. That all being said, I'd love to see these arrows shot at a full ballistic dummy torso (with all the bones and innards lol). I bet this could hit the sternum and spine and still find it's way out of the back 😶
I just thought I'd add some explanations / examples of the rounds, for people unfamiliar with firearms. - .22 (5.58 mm) long rifle is a little rabbit hunting round - 9mm x 19 is a standard pistol round. - 7.62mm x 39 is a Kalashnikov round, lower powered than the NATO equivalent at the time. Which was .... - 7.62mm x 51. Used by NATO since the 1950's, but replaced in rifles by a smaller, high velocity 5.56mm round. It remains the NATO standard for a medium machine guns.
190 ft lbs is solidly in 380 acp territory. 380 acp is considered to be sort of a concealed carry handgun round that some consider effective and others would consider anemic.
HI Tom, Thanks for that and yes I agree, but what is really interesting is the momentum part of it all. I made a great film a a couple of years ago th-cam.com/video/KNo5yDI7A1M/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BryRXwhhxTPO-qBY where we shot bullets and arrows at sand bags and I managed to put weak arrows through half a meter of sand, which stopped all the various bullets and that was a combination of momentum and the length of the arrow.
Wow! Always a great video with Tod and Joe (and all Tods guests in fact). It would be great if you could do a video comparing the technology of the longbow with the compound - how the forces are produced. I have some idea but would love to have a thorough explanation.
Name a more iconic duo than Joe and Tod, I really can't stress how much I love their chemistry and the way both of them basically gush about any form of bow shooting, no matter the kind, whether it's Crossbows, Longbows, or Compound Bows.
190ft/lbs of energy is only 10ft/lbs less than the on the tin rating for 90 grain Federal Hydrashock .380 Auto at the muzzle from a 3.75" barrel. Which I might add is kinda long for a .380 barrel.
incredible stuff! and the idea at the end with a compound bow without let off is definitely possible and some custom cams can allow this, the fps should be even higher too
Haha, this is brilliant! Crazy to see how different these two types of bow are. I also love how you broke down the data at the end, the only measurement you forgot to include was weight in stone!
Great stuff! At 29:40 you were wondering about a compound with constant draw force - such bows do exist e.g. the Mathews Genesis, often used so that junior archers can get more energy into the shot but also have a decent weight on the fingers for a clean release.
The whole point of the compound bow is the weight drop off, without which its just a regular bow with pullies on it. The drop off does two things for you, first is obvious in that it allows you to hold the bow with less effort and take better aim. But probably more important is the gradual acceleration of the arrow prevents the arrow from flexing as much. This allows the archer to use lighter spine arrows without the risk of the arrow shattering in the rest, and lighter will go faster.
@@tods_workshop the arrows you were using and the setup are not tuned for maximum performance. That arrow was flopping all over the place, normal in traditional bows with side rests (archer's paradox), but should not happen in a modern bow with a center rest. That means the setup is was wasting energy bending the arrow that otherwise would go into velocity. Properly tuned compound bows should not flex the arrow hardly at all (when setting up a new compound bow we shoot through sheets of paper to see if the arrows are traveling off axis and tune accordingly). Side to side flex is caused mostly by an off center rest which must be in alignment with the string travel. The up/down flex is caused by the cams being out of synch (timing), noch position being high or low relative to the rest, and tuning of the limbs to insure they are both pulling with the same power... all of this insures that the noch is traveling in a straight line on release. But none of that matters if your arrow spine is not stiff enough. I would touch base with an arrow manufacturer to see what they say about arrow weight. You may need to order custom aluminum tubing to build enough spine to handle that bow. And tuning is gonna be a pain... literally!
@@tods_workshop It is possible to set some compound bows to a low let off mode. In some bows, you have adjustable modules (the inner part of the cam which sets the draw length and controls where in the draw the let off "comes in") and separate draw stops (often pegs on the outer part of the cam). If you set the draw length modules to a longer draw length setting than the draw stops, it basically "short strokes" the draw and means there is less let off. Just as a warning, doing it the other way - setting draw stops at a longer draw length than the module setting, is dangerous, as it can result in "100 % let off" - the bow locked in the full draw position, so you don't want to do that!
@@fire304 That's the most common design choice, sure - but there are compounds like the Genesis designed to maximise energy for a given draw weight (and are optimised for finger loose, so want a greater weight at anchor than a typical compound), and bows with zero or very low 20% let-off designed for bowfishing, such as the PSE Barracuda or AMS Fire Eagle, which allow rapid snap-shooting that isn't practical with a regular compound
14:07 That was a hell of a draw and slow release! That was not easy to do! That was truly impressive. Holy crap that penetrantion through the backdrop!! Wow!!
As a lover of tabletop RPGs this is super insightful. I spent hours in the past trying to figure out how to make rules for compound vs non-compound bows and fortunately came to something roughly similar with the rule that compound bows were roughly equivalent to non-compound bows of half the weight. So good to see that bourn out in data.
I'd love to see some competition weightlifters try these sort of bows (Eddie Hall, Brian Shaw,The Stoltman brothers,Mitchell Hooper ect.), to really compare Joe's purpose built body with technique Vs raw strength
@@lukeorlando4814 Eddie revels in this kind of thing, but I'm not even sure he can move his arms in this way as the bulging muscles limits flexibility.
I'll bet Eddie would LOVE to give this a shot (so to speak). This sort of thing is right up his alley. And he's a real character; he'd be a hoot to watch trying these heavier bows.
Honestly, everything with Tod (except with Skallagrim, that guy gives off a bad vibe to me) is an instant watch for me. If it's with Joe, Matt Easton or Toby Capwell I just click even faster :D
Not the first time I've had to pause one of Tod's videos to quickly Google something... but "Whisker biscuit"? I had some concerns what results would turn up! 🤣
To think that it outclass .17 .22 .25 .32 etc caliber and basically need a hot 380 Auto or regular 38 Special to get into those territories in term of energy and those cartridge can goes close to 20 000 psi of pressure ! ( dont quote me on that im not caliber expert just 10s search). But it really put things into perspective the amount of force it take to build that energy capacity drawing the bow.
I had to take a couple of lbs off the draw weight of my 60lb Hoyt Contender as at the full power the arrows were just 2ft/s above the max allowed arrow speed of 300ft/s for our field archery here in Belgium.
What would be really interesting is to compare graphs of the measured draw-weight vs draw-distance of the two bows (ie, what we see at 2:45). Doing the same measurements for a compound recurve bow would be fascinating too. Oh, and for different types of crossbow while you're at it (compound, steel, ratchet, etc...). If you've already got the rig at hand to measure it this would be super fascinating stuff that drills right to the heart of why different bows behave differently and feel different. I've seen theoretical graphs of modern bows of this stuff, but real measurements of accurate replicas would be priceless.
31:00 I'll take you up on that Tod! One thing that would the draw-weight graphs would tell us is the efficiency of the bow. The area under that graph is the energy stored in the bow, put in there by Joe. We know the energy of the arrow on release from that table. The ratio of those two energies is the efficiency of the bow. Seeing the difference in efficiency between compound bows, long bows, but also recurve / composite bows would be super interesting. And crossbows too, I suspect we'd see a massive drop in efficiency between composite crossbows and steel crossbows, because of how much energy gets diverted to the steel's motion.
I'd be more interested in the reverse of that curve - not the energy into the system but how it is delivered to the projectile. With modern composite technologies we might be at the point where we both can and we really need to slow the initial power delivery more and have it ramp up more rapidly once the arrow is already moving - only got a 30 odd inch draw on a bow to work with so you can't be too gradual if you want to transfer much energy but it looks like the inertia of the head is just too high and far too much of the power is being lost to elastic deformation of the arrow shaft.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 That would be good too, but considering it happens in a few dozen miliseconds its might be hard to measure. But from the area under the loading graph and the arrow energy at launch, you can easily compute the bow efficiency (it's just the ratio of the two). The difference between the two is how much energy is "lost" within the bow itself.
@@QuantumHistorian The bow and Arrow both have impact on the efficiency overall though. From what we saw on those few shots I'd suggest the arrow was actually a limiting factor here, and probably by quite a bit - it looks like couldn't take such brutal initial acceleration and was flapping around really quite badly. With a high speed camera it shouldn't be that hard to get a reasonable measure of how the bow delivers its power - have a clip on weight as an arrow simulator so all the mass is actually at the nock end directly on the string rather than being delivered into a giant spring of the arrow itself. Other methods possible too. The point being then you can then separate the variable of the arrow from the bow, and probably more accurately fine tune the bow to deliver power in a way that doesn't get wasted by the arrow (at least with fancy composite technologies - really is mindblowing just how selective you can be once you know what you want).
So, a couple of things. First, I couldn't see the let off on the super bow, although I guess? it did? Second, I'm an American, so of course I'm a gun owner (and gunsmith) and the super bow was shooting what is essentially a knife with 3 blades, and the same kinetic energy as a .380, or 9 mm short. "Yikes". Good work Joe and Todd!
It definitely did let off at the end of the draw, you can see him stabilize a lot when he goes to aim. I'm sure it's still a crazy amount of force compared to a competition target bow but much less than the peak draw weight of that thing
Collaboration! World Record!! The only man measuring velocity in javelins/frames!!! Jokes aside, thank you all; this is unbelievably impressive and cool.
With all that modern technology, the arrow even at that short distance barely penetrated the armour, it just goes to show how strong the armour of the time actually was.
Unreal on many different levels. The man is a humble beast. I laugh thinking about him pulling the rope to start a stubborn lawnmower, there he is with the engine pulled completely off thinking “Not again…”
Of course I just did a video with the 100lb king cobra compound and Joe just HAD to outdo my by a wide margin haha. Props to the legend 💪🏹
I know, I saw that and it is a great and fun film, so well done, but yes this was in the bag a while back and now I can talk about it.
@@tods_workshopit was an amazing build my friend, I am so happy to see this with your high speed cameras, these results were truly spectacular. Keep being amazing.
Rambro in shambles 😂
how far off would you estimate been able to shoot a 130 lb
As soon as i saw the thumbnail I said "Dash is in shambles" haha
Thanks for everyone's Awsome comments
And thanks to everyone involved in this brilliant film!!!
Allways a joy to see you work with Tod. Never really comprehended the effort and training it takes to be a longbowman before I saw you do it with these +120lb bows.
I knew the specs but this grounds it into reality! Great video! ^^
Hi Joe, what tab do you use with the longbow?.
Cheers
amazing stuff like always. what a cool experience! that big hit on the chest was awesome.
Allways a plesure watching you guys work,and Joe you are the G.O.A.T!
Huge respect!
Thank you for helping tod make these amazing and highly educational films.
I try to imagine how medieval soldiers would speak about your feat. Some would probably not even believe the tale.
The noises Joe was making while drawing all that weight was incredible. The sound of true 100% effort.
Yeah I was concerned he might blow a gasket there... LOL
And not useless either. Pressing out air in your lungs while keeping your mouth shut increases the pressure in the lungs and forces more oxygen into your blood. This way he can use a lot of power for a very short timeframe while staying conscious.
When I hear noises like that, I know it's time to reach for the Senokot ;
All the power of Joe's body for five seconds stored in those bow limbs...... Scary stuff to be pointed your way
maximum effort :)
This is truly amazing. Now we MUST see a medieval 130 lbs compound bow, at last :)
Seeing how closely his pose matches what we see in historical illustrations was kind of mind blowing, you see the funny looking people and assume it's just poorly done but in fact it's dead accurate. Made me look at all of it differently.
It is interesting how similar they are and I remember realising the poses were the same
In the previous Arrows Versus Armor video there's no shortage of "experts" in archery critiquing Joe's stance, and you can tell when they're lightweights who never shot a real war bow or a monster like this one, because they have no idea how much you need to engage every muscle in the body to draw these beasts..
@@Peptuck Not even talking about shooting a behemoth of a bow like Joe shoots, try lifting 50kg of the floor without tightening your core and muscles. Maybe a beast like Eddy Hall can do that, but 99% of people will just tear something, or at least feel they are doing something very very wrong
As someone who regularly lifts stuff from floor height. You're hard pressed to do any weight without engaging your core a little just to keep yourself from falling down.
I remember trying to pull a long bow - in the modern manor - at the Mary Rose museum and thinking "F... Me, you gotta have some muscles to pull this thing". Joe's posture and explanation makes perfect sense. Obviously still need to build up the strength!
I'm so glad that you took the time to address the safety concerns with just letting him loose on a new bow type and did so visibly.
I'm sure a lot of people, maybe even Tod himself, would say "of course!" but a lot of channels (YT and TV) would not to try to milk the disparity for content.
Yeah, I really appreciated how they pointed out that he got four months to train first to make sure he didn't injure himself.
The words "Joe" and "Superbow" simultaneously drew some joy from a brutal Monday and a like out of me!
Snap
As it happened I had a pretty lousy Monday too, so glad it has cheered you up.
Been having an awful time for weeks now and yeah it helped a bit
One thing that I have been wondering. Archeological digs had discovered in medieval graves the bones of men that they originally thought were deformed. Then it was concluded that these were archers and the 'deformities' were actually physical changes in their bone structure due to constant practice at shooting longbows. Has anyone investigated whether Joe and other longbow shooters have also had similar changes in their bone structure?
I think it's also related to a, supposedly, old english saying: "If you want a good longbowman, start with his grandfather." meaning it took generations to build up a really good longbow archer.
"Jeorg Sprave..."
(jump cut)
"Hahahaha!" (Fires contraption) - "Let me show you its features!"
I think you have to do include the laugh and "Let me show you its features!" by law now :D
What if Boadicea had a 22LR ? 😅😅😅
ptonpc - it is certainly law over here
Yep, done by the book
One of the greats
The effort you put into these videos is just mindblowing, both of you Joe and Tod! 4 months of training with the heavy compound is true dedication.
Thank you for giving Joe handshakes from all of us. That was absolutely epic.
I love the idea of modifying it to make it more tuned to Joe's technique!
Joe seems incredibly humble; like a real knight would be.
Shows up in jeans and work boots. Breaks a world record unofficially. Bad ass.
Very humble, very talented, very driven
Watching Joe struggle with the compound in the beginning was fascinating. To see just how different the technology changed how he shot was startling.
I love how honest and humble you are, Tod. Little mistakes happen, and the video is still absolute class because of your humility. Seeing Joe struggle that much with the draw weight just illustrates how powerful that bow really is. All that potential energy is scary!
Thanks and still feel like a twit though
@ haha nah, real twits don’t have that self-awareness, nor do they own up to it!
@@tods_workshopAs you should :-) But it's ok, we're all humans and have our moments 😅
@@tods_workshop Yeah but you admitted the mistake and corrected it. As my PhD adviser once put it, "admitting when we're wrong is what separates scientists from politicians."
Fascinating display of ultra modern vs old but still very capable Longbow 🥳🥳🥳🥳
What a cracking release Joe has. Even on the compound. Brilliant video gents. You've settled an ongoing discussion I've been having with my compound shooting friend for a while now. Keep up the fantastic work.
I believe Tod always states "160lbs" as it's Joe's "I can shoot this all day" comfortable draw weight, but I just want to bring up that the man can shoot 210lb. I know he isn't going to be able to shoot that all day, but I feel like the man needs some praise for that lol
When I visited Agincourt at the museum they have a 130lb long bow simulator - its like trying to pull a guidewire for an aerial mast or something. It moves about 3 inches and then just DOES NOT MOVE - its solid
Now image it almost twice as stuff!
I find it amazing that he has shot (I think) a 215, but what I find even more amazing is that he can do these things accurately
Quite honestly that might well be the most impressive thing @tods_workshop
But here he's struggling with 130 though
I can't tell you how I enjoy the interaction between these two.
Genuine reactions and a bit of humor.
No scripted bs.
Joe is not only an amazing longbowman and good sport, he's also a great "character" on screen. You guys did a good job of sharing the talking time which made for an even more interesting video.
He is a lovely guy and thanks for the kind words.
He really is. Both Joe and the Javelin lad (Michael, maybe? I forget) are such joys to have on camera. They clearly don't have much experience on camera yet but they are honest, great at their fields and just genuinely likeable blokes. They are such a great addition to this channel, what a time to be alive to be able to witniss this.
@@BoarhideGaming I also think Tod is growing as a host. People think being a host is easy - you just get on screen and talk - but making this feel natural to the viewer takes real skill. When the guest looks good, this is a credit both to the guest and the host.
I think the situation with Michael is a good example. The later videos with him were much better than the early ones. Perhaps Michael got more comfortable on camera, but Tod also started giving him more space to fill, and drew him into that space - so it felt more like a dialog. Good stuff Tod.
@@MrTwostring He absolutely is growing too, aye.
This was interesting, educational and fun to watch, which is why I love this channel . Thank you very much to both of you and to the off screen people involved in the video 👍🏻
You know, you say this is pointless, but as a fantasy writer I find this incredibly useful and interesting information that gives me some great ideas. For instance, a magical bow that amplifies the strength of the draw would probably require bigger and heavier arrows to bring out its power, and won't be much more effective without the right kind of ammunition. And if I need that bow to be powerful enough to punch through plate armor, it probably needs to generate at least maybe three times the momentum of a mundane bow of the same draw weight, since this bow was 1.6x the momentum and did not achieve a lethal shot. All potentially very useful worldbuilding information.
Armor penetration boils down to three things, minimal cross section to increase impact PSI, high speed, and lots of kinetic energy. You need all three to be successful. If you could come up with a rare metal or alloy (like JRR did with mithril) that was really dense and hard to make a needle thin penetrating point, and then some rare wood or legendary animal bone for the shaft that was able to handle the high draw weight of a magic bow, then you'd have a nice blend of fantasy and science to produce a super thin arrow with a lot of mass for penetrating even the toughest armor.
that's niche and you know it,most people aren't writers...of any kind.
that's like me saying it inspired a poem, not many people write poetry nowadays.
was thinking the same thing. I actually have a very rough draft for a fantasy book where this amplification is a thing, but I wasn't sure how it would matter and at what points. This give fantastic datapoints.
A pow that is multiplying power into the 130-160 lb draw range won't defeat a breastplate headon, but given the other arrow vs armor video about weaker points of armor it would be very dangerous against those.
@@bloodlove93What’s your point, exactly? The vast majority of fantasy *readers* are far more sophisticated than in past years, requiring the fantasy elements to be self-consistent and subject to rules just as mundane physics is. A wise author takes this into account when writing. For example, in his Discworld books, Sir Pterry had his students at Unseen University learning telekinesis also learn that they were jthe fulcrums of the magical forces they were wielding, and if they got the angles wrong they risked flipping their brain out of their ear.
What the OP suggests is perfectly reasonable in a fantasy setting. There might exist say a common set of weight- or momentum- altering spells used for day to day tasks from carrying buckets of water to unloading cargo ships, and some bright boy has the idea to apply it to arrows… or catapult loads… And of course the mundane physical properties of the bow and arrow (and string) materials would come into play unless you wanted to magic all of the components, but stacking spells typically leads to unfortunate interactions.
@@markfergerson2145 Modern social behavior is far too concerned with appearance of maturity, and disregard for anything deemed childlike. Play is important. When generals simulate their wargames, it is play. The most devious military paradigms have come from play. It is a powerful tool in every profession in some way. Two men in a field do not have better things to be doing than inspiring creative thinking. Arguing otherwise is very reductive. I would be proud to find reference to my own findings within a new generation of fiction.
Joe is a monster and an awesome man for taking this on. I love how excited Tod is when his friends achieve new things. All around an awesome achievement and video! Great work guys!
I love how humble Joe is, he takes the cheeky remarks like a champ and always delivers on the set. Would love to see body builders or rock climbers try to learn how to shoot this bow.
Joe is obviously a very strong and fit individual, but he still looks like a human being. What a contrast to the posing body builders with their over developed physiques.
body builders focus on the "aesthetic of muscles" a lot more. And the type of lifts they do are completely different muscle groups. No doubt there are some overlap but they likely won't be able to go 160-210 like Joe can. That needs training, for both the proper stance and the muscle groups to work together. They might have a easier time than the average person since they already have a lot of muscles and physical training and don't need to start from scratch
@@neurofiedyamato8763For sure, the muscle sets Joe uses are very different. The way he is using them is different. I can tell he's a well built guy, not a bodybuilder but definitely muscular. Like the prime example of a good soldier's physique.
@@neurofiedyamato8763 when I was a carpenter, I would routinely outdo bodybuilders in tests of strength, and I was skinn... lean.
Makes you wonder how well Eddy Hall would do with Heavy Bow shooting.
Lack of muscles wouldn't be a problem (after all he deadlifted over 1100lbs) but could he apply them in the right way?
Awesome! Certainly be hellacious bruising from that big tip shot. LOL! Incredible seeing those CF shafts hold up like they did. Would be fascinating to see what kind of microscopic damage was done. Perhaps EK has or would get a sample inspected to see. Heck of a bragging point for the quality. Thanks to all that made this vid possible. Especially Joe!
Tod, it would be fascinating to see you actually repair that breastplate using medieval technologies, hammering it out, somehow mending the holes, then test out if mending the armor actually weakens it. That's would make for an excellent film.
Hammering out would be easy, but I guess they would plate and rivet, which I have certainly seen done on helmets
@@tods_workshop I'd totally watch that!
@@Makrangoncias Same.
You always hear about how much this and that was damaged in battle, but never how it was repaired.
@@tods_workshop some repairs may be forge welds, not sure for a breastplate with pinholes though, likely would depend on who is repairing it in what era excetra.
Wrong draw lenght, wrong spine, but man, respect for pulling 131lbs! You are a strength monster!
I didn’t even think the arrow was going to survive the release. The way it was flexing during the shot shows it was so close to its limit. The guy is an animal tho ! Beautiful looking broad head to
That was stupid dangerous.
@@upstreamer1661 had me holding my breath the whole time.
@@upstreamer1661 Indeed, he could have destroyed his hand there.
Wrong draw length, bad technique, irresponsible initial set up, wrong arrow set up and more, Thoroughly dangerous experiment. Total respect for Joes long bow achievements. There was so much wrong with this episode I'm shocked they put it out there. Tod has made so many excellent videos I'm not knocking that. But, as an archer, this is not a good example to anyone. Irresponsible post
This is less of historical experimentation and more of an exploration of the limits of archery technology.
I’d love to see a sequel
It also has some historical relevance when a record breaking bow is still not powerful enough to do significant dmg to a knight if it were to hit him in the breastplate, meaning any bows from that era had no chance against plate armor, which many people on the internet has the misconception that bows could penetrate plate armor.
Same!
It does depend on quality and where as different parts of the armour were different thicknesses, but I also hit this breastplate with rocket assisted arrows in another film and they were generating around 400J if I remember right and they still were not going right through the breastplate
@@tods_workshop apologies if you've mentioned it before, but is the breastplate hardened and if so, what range of carbon content? If this is basically wrought iron then I'm even more impressed.
Well, but we also saw that even the light arrow went through chainmail like it was nothing, and the helmet got some deep penetration as well (enough to hurt I guess). So yes, you are not likely to kill, but hitting arms/legs or mail parts (and if you shoot enough arrows, this at some point gets likely) will sound somebody enough to make them a far less dangerous fighter still (and maybe kill them later via infection). So even with the best armour, advancing on a block of archera is still dangerous
Brilliant! Excellent! Love the video. Joe is not human and is amazing to watch. As a longbow and compound bow archer, this video was fascinating. Very interesting to read the results at the end - arrow weight v's draw weight. Thanks for taking the time and effort to bring this to us.
I tried a 100lb bow once.. And I couldnt get it past 1/3 draw.. and im not a small Man... To do 130 on a compound is absolutely nuts.. nuts.. Compounds are very very touchy about alignment, if you pull one back wrong it can easily roll the string off the cams and before you know whats what, the bow is in pieces and your probably in pain... I just can't believe he was able to haul that back and keep it aligned and then bang off a shot... Kudos to EK archery for making a bow that strong too.. Thats serious engineering..
The headshot at the end was amazing!!! loved the determination 👏💪
Wow!.... this is proper archery fantasy stuff, drool
Hi Matt, it was an extraordinary feat
Hi Matt! As someone with experience with hand weapons, I was curious how you'd think that hole would compare to one from, say, a warhammer strike.
Hi Matt. Will you review Todds workshop daggers?
that is an amazing achievement! well done, gentlemen! 15 years ago, when i was regularly shooting recurve bows, i had the opportunity to draw (and let down, not fire) a 70-lb draw Hoyt compound, so i can relate how that felt to me (my recurve is normally fit with 37-lb limbs). cheers!
The man who never made a mistake never made anything.
That is very true, but still it was a corker
true
Awesome can opener. I’m glad “let me show you its features” made it into the video. Nice job guys
Joe is a machine. keep bringing him on as often as you can, this content is great
So nice to see another upload by you. Thank you!
Joe is strong as hell and I love these videos. Keep them coming. I dont know what we need to do but I want to see that hypothetical bow discussed at the end. Lets get it going.
A small but expensive suggestion, have a machine shop run up some points for the super bow out of tungsten, and tungsten carbide. Tungsten is 2.45 times as dense as iron, you get exactly the same weight as the arrow head you used in the video with a MUCH smaller cross section. I would bet a lot of money it punches right thru. Tungsten carbide is a little less dense, but even harder. It might also be to brittle, but while you are making an expensive order at the machine shop you might as well go all in.
It was also fascinating to see a an arrow that just bounced off of the breast plate go right the the chain mail. that was a really interesting detail
I'd never considered the force-draw curve of a compound bow to be a disadvantage at higher draw weights!
also depends on your hobbies and training, if he'd have shot compound for a long time those muscles would be stronger than the ones he has from traditional archery.
@@bloodlove93that wouldn’t effect the physics behind the compound bow. As long as he gets it to the full draw, which he did, his technique or strength won’t effect the way the arrow is loosed (save for accuracy). It’s down to the materials and pulley system at that point.
Now if Joe changed the cams on the compound then he could get a different let off power curve, my bow which is about half the draw weight has different cams that give you different power curves.
@Specter_1125
You can train muscles at different parts of range of motions. IE: Chains on a barbell (higher resistance to lower resistance), resistance bands (lighter resistance to higher resistance), isometric at different ROM, etc.
If Joe shot only/mostly compound bows instead of traditional bows, Joe would be a lot "stronger" at the lower ROM of the draw and probably not as strong relatively at full ROM.
And where did he say anything about the physics of the arrow? He was talking about the draw curve being "more difficult" because it would require strength in an uncommon spot in the ROM, which no one probably trains for.
@@CowsGoMonkey While you can train the muscles more at different points in the range of motion, there are still the fundamentals of biomechanics at play - leverage and tension, and the difference in size/strength of the muscles used i.e. tricep/posterior deltoid (relatively smaller muscles engaged more in early part of draw) versus latissimus dorsi/trapezius (relatively larger muscles engaged more towards full extension).
Amazing work from both of you. Huge respect to Jo for that Herculean effort and skill, and to Tod for his insightful engineering mind. And of course to the mad German; I loved the excerpt of his catchphrase! Great work all round, thank you so much!
When Joe pulled that bow back you could see the huge power he was pulling. Well done.
Thankyou Gentlemen. That was not only very interesting, but incredibly entertaining too.. 10/10 👍 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏 👏
Joe is an absolute unit, always great to see him on the channel. Great video gents, love it.
I love having him on the channel
WOW. Not that it really surprises me, since Joerg Sprave is a bow enthusiast, always looking for the "next step" - but I still tip my hat for Joerg for reaching out.
This is massively interesting. GREAT work, everybody. GREAT video 👍
I laughed so hard when I saw that you had to lengthen the arrow because you mounted the whisker biscuit the wrong way round. It ain't easy being medieval. 😂
I have lots of words for myself over that incident, but mostly not You Tube friendly
Yeah I question why the draw length wasn't decreased? He was drastically overextending on the draw, I was worried it would never let off.
@@tods_workshop I always knew from your videos you are a perfectionist. Don't torture yourself over it, you are doing absolutely amazing things. I know that feeling 😬
@@StucklnAWell Even the draw loop was a full half inch longer than it need to be.
@@StucklnAWell For sure! Normal draw length has your hand by your jaw line / ear and his hand was behind his head before it let off. I wonder if they kept it that way to try and more closely match the draw length of a longbow...
Really cool video! It looked like from the slow mo that those super heavy arrows for the 131 pound compound were not tuned well. I bet if they were tuned well “if thats even possible” lol they would transfer much more energy and go through that armor. Really enjoyed thanks!
This is hilariously awesome, Tod. Great video prompt. Looks like the 70lb Compound bow might actually be a good analog for a 100-120lb longbow. Video idea, can you make a compound bow with medieval materials and methods? Be cool to see how you'd go about implementing the cams and making a compound crossbow prod.
Also, I think it is really interesting seeing the ballistics table at the end starting at 30:43. The current prevailing philosophy amongst modern compound bow hunters is that lightweight arrows are better (if using a heavy poundage bow) than heavier arrows because the faster arrow which results in a flatter trajectory which allows for increased accuracy at longer range, and also it gives the animal less time to dodge, duck, dip, dive, and dodge. However, a sizeable minority opinion is still that a heavier arrow is better because even though you are "lobbing logs" and need to get closer you gain additional silence from more efficient energy transfer between the bow & arrow, and the increase in momentum especially will make it so even hard surfaces like an elk's shoulder blades can be defeated while also potentially justifying a lower poundage because of the increases to energy + momentum.
Looks like your results are consistent with that. The 70lb compound bow was shooting 5.3 GPP arrows over 100 fps faster than it was shooting the 17.4 GPP arrows, but with around 30 fewer Js and basically half the momentum. Always cool to see
70LBS COMPOUND BOW:
- 65% faster using lightweight 5.3 GPP arrows
- 25% more kinetic energy (J or Ft/Lbs) using heavy 17.4 GPP arrows
- 102% more momentum (kg.m/s or lb.fts/s) using heavy 17.4 GPP arrows
LIMB EFFICIENCY:
- Assuming 1.45 Ft/Lbs of stored energy per lbs of draw weight (S.E./P.D.F ratio), the 70lbs compound bow has ~100 ft/lbs of potential energy.
- The 32g Arrow (5.3 GPP) outputs ~69 ft/lbs on average making the bow ~69% efficient with that arrow.
- The 79g Arrow (17.4 GPP) outputs ~85 ft/lbs on average making the bow ~85% efficient with that arrow.
Thanks for that analysis - really interesting stuff in here. I have been pondering for a while making a medieval compound crossbow with some stupid high poundage, but not yet.
Indoors I use heavy aluminium shaft arrows they chronograph at 260ft/s and the target knows it has been hit, outdoors I use carbon shafted arrows which are much lighter and chrono at 302ft/s they tend to just go right through the target, my garage door can testify to that. The heavier arrow delivers more energy in to the target where the lighter arrow expends some of it's energy on the middle distance behind the target.
I have been shooting bows since I was about 10 years old.
Amazing video guys, you really showed the limit of the materials in the compound bow. Limits which most people could never hope to find, I might add.
You also show why the knight in full plate was the king of the battlefield, until the advent of firearms.
Absolutely amazing stuff, here, guys! Joe is always an absolute treat to watch, and this was a particularly interesting video :)
Thanks!
Truly impressive. Well done gents that was outstanding.
Tod, these are amazing videos and analysis. Thanks for keeping them coming, they are a great way to understand both weapons and armor in great detail.
Fantastic archer.
Drawing this one is out if this world.
Also this arrowhead has to be the meanest go through anything head I've seen.
24:00
That shot of the just plain field point going through two layers of mail and archery foam and how difficult it was to try and get it out again just goes to show how much protection you get from plate and how little protection you get from chainmail from a fairly stout bow.
Wow! It went through it like butter!
Thats because carbon arrows are thinner than wood arrows so they have a easier time going in between the ring
But as you saw the ring caught and snagged the arrow after it partly passed through it and the expansion of the ring and shrinkage of arrow.
No broken rings as far as could see
Different purposes. Chainmail was not made to protect against small piercing attacks (like from projectiles), but against cutting and to a lesser extent stabbing attacks from spears/swords (as they tend to have a larger end which is harder to generate enough force to penetrate like that arrow did).
A hit unlikely to kill a night directly. But infection of battle wounds was a major issue until recently. And even without infection an arrow shaft through through the arm like that will remove the knight from the field.
Makes me wonder if the 130lbs compound bow could shoot an arrow through two guys wearing mail, an interesting idea for a future video.
Great test, well conducted!👍👍. Loving your work mate.
Wow. That heavy bow and arrow is just a portable/handheld balista. That combination is scary.
Amazing to see you succeed with it though!
Damn, I could feel the effort on that draw! Great job Joe
Just talking about the energy, 240J is putting you in the realm of some modern bullets; not rounds that are thought of as powerful, mind, but we're only talking about the energy there - not the momentum. Bullets are very light, going damn fast, meaning energy can be very impressive, but momentum, less so. This arrow from this bow will have a shocking amount of momentum.
To give some quick comparisons to show the differences (bare in mind each of these calibres have a lot of variety, these are just random examples):
- A .22lr 2.6 g bullet going at 370 m/s has 178 J of energy and 0.96 kg·m/s of momentum
- A 9x19mm 7.45 g bullet going at 360 m/s has 481 J of energy and 2.6 kg·m/s of momentum
- A 7.62x39mm 8 g bullet going at 738 m/s has 2,179 J of energy and 5.9 kg·m/s of momentum
- A 7.62x51mm 10 g bullet going at 850 m/s has 3,470 J of energy and 8.5 kg·m/s of momentum
So you have to look to some hefty rifle rounds before you start seeing the kind of momentum that this arrow had (7.45 kg·m/s). Not to say it's more deadly than, well, most bullets, but it's kind of a cool practical demonstration of the relationship between energy and momentum. That all being said, I'd love to see these arrows shot at a full ballistic dummy torso (with all the bones and innards lol). I bet this could hit the sternum and spine and still find it's way out of the back 😶
I just thought I'd add some explanations / examples of the rounds, for people unfamiliar with firearms.
- .22 (5.58 mm) long rifle is a little rabbit hunting round
- 9mm x 19 is a standard pistol round.
- 7.62mm x 39 is a Kalashnikov round, lower powered than the NATO equivalent at the time. Which was ....
- 7.62mm x 51. Used by NATO since the 1950's, but replaced in rifles by a smaller, high velocity 5.56mm round. It remains the NATO standard for a medium machine guns.
Nice!
190 ft lbs is solidly in 380 acp territory. 380 acp is considered to be sort of a concealed carry handgun round that some consider effective and others would consider anemic.
Maybe stupid question, but what's the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. Both have mass and velocity as parameters.
HI Tom,
Thanks for that and yes I agree, but what is really interesting is the momentum part of it all. I made a great film a a couple of years ago th-cam.com/video/KNo5yDI7A1M/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BryRXwhhxTPO-qBY where we shot bullets and arrows at sand bags and I managed to put weak arrows through half a meter of sand, which stopped all the various bullets and that was a combination of momentum and the length of the arrow.
Another great video. Really appreciated the talk about the stance at the beginning.
Hats off to Joe! 131lb Bow shot with accuracy? What an amazing archer, and thanks Tod and EK Archery for putting together an amazing film!
Lmao what accuracy? 😂 he missed 4 times!! 😂 only landed one shot with the super bow from ten feet away
Wow! Always a great video with Tod and Joe (and all Tods guests in fact).
It would be great if you could do a video comparing the technology of the longbow with the compound - how the forces are produced. I have some idea but would love to have a thorough explanation.
this is joe gibbs let me show you his features
Name a more iconic duo than Joe and Tod, I really can't stress how much I love their chemistry and the way both of them basically gush about any form of bow shooting, no matter the kind, whether it's Crossbows, Longbows, or Compound Bows.
To highlight 190 ft lbs is amazing power, for something a human draws with his arms and back might as well be a class of it's own. Well done.
Agreed
190ft/lbs of energy is only 10ft/lbs less than the on the tin rating for 90 grain Federal Hydrashock .380 Auto at the muzzle from a 3.75" barrel.
Which I might add is kinda long for a .380 barrel.
Humans draw crossbows with their arms and they can get way over 190 ft lbs and you don't have to be that strong. Stop it with the nonsense.
@@thomgizziz You mean cranked a pully system?
incredible stuff! and the idea at the end with a compound bow without let off is definitely possible and some custom cams can allow this, the fps should be even higher too
Well done to both of you, truly excellent
FANTASTIC Video Tod !!! Wow
It was garbage
The man just talks while drawing 135 pounds....Impressive!
Haha, this is brilliant! Crazy to see how different these two types of bow are. I also love how you broke down the data at the end, the only measurement you forgot to include was weight in stone!
Great stuff! At 29:40 you were wondering about a compound with constant draw force - such bows do exist e.g. the Mathews Genesis, often used so that junior archers can get more energy into the shot but also have a decent weight on the fingers for a clean release.
Ah thanks - I didn't know about that
The whole point of the compound bow is the weight drop off, without which its just a regular bow with pullies on it. The drop off does two things for you, first is obvious in that it allows you to hold the bow with less effort and take better aim. But probably more important is the gradual acceleration of the arrow prevents the arrow from flexing as much. This allows the archer to use lighter spine arrows without the risk of the arrow shattering in the rest, and lighter will go faster.
@@tods_workshop the arrows you were using and the setup are not tuned for maximum performance. That arrow was flopping all over the place, normal in traditional bows with side rests (archer's paradox), but should not happen in a modern bow with a center rest. That means the setup is was wasting energy bending the arrow that otherwise would go into velocity. Properly tuned compound bows should not flex the arrow hardly at all (when setting up a new compound bow we shoot through sheets of paper to see if the arrows are traveling off axis and tune accordingly). Side to side flex is caused mostly by an off center rest which must be in alignment with the string travel. The up/down flex is caused by the cams being out of synch (timing), noch position being high or low relative to the rest, and tuning of the limbs to insure they are both pulling with the same power... all of this insures that the noch is traveling in a straight line on release. But none of that matters if your arrow spine is not stiff enough. I would touch base with an arrow manufacturer to see what they say about arrow weight. You may need to order custom aluminum tubing to build enough spine to handle that bow. And tuning is gonna be a pain... literally!
@@tods_workshop It is possible to set some compound bows to a low let off mode. In some bows, you have adjustable modules (the inner part of the cam which sets the draw length and controls where in the draw the let off "comes in") and separate draw stops (often pegs on the outer part of the cam). If you set the draw length modules to a longer draw length setting than the draw stops, it basically "short strokes" the draw and means there is less let off. Just as a warning, doing it the other way - setting draw stops at a longer draw length than the module setting, is dangerous, as it can result in "100 % let off" - the bow locked in the full draw position, so you don't want to do that!
@@fire304 That's the most common design choice, sure - but there are compounds like the Genesis designed to maximise energy for a given draw weight (and are optimised for finger loose, so want a greater weight at anchor than a typical compound), and bows with zero or very low 20% let-off designed for bowfishing, such as the PSE Barracuda or AMS Fire Eagle, which allow rapid snap-shooting that isn't practical with a regular compound
Just a thanks to you both for not making a part 2 and waiting the months for joe to learn
14:07
That was a hell of a draw and slow release!
That was not easy to do! That was truly impressive.
Holy crap that penetrantion through the backdrop!! Wow!!
As a lover of tabletop RPGs this is super insightful. I spent hours in the past trying to figure out how to make rules for compound vs non-compound bows and fortunately came to something roughly similar with the rule that compound bows were roughly equivalent to non-compound bows of half the weight.
So good to see that bourn out in data.
Dude, joe, you are a bona fide BAMF
What a feat to draw that beast. So hard to hit the spot but I love you guys trying and trying.
Joe Gibbs is a true athlete. Well done sir.
Another epic Joe video............. I had no idea what was going to happen, very exciting.
I'd love to see some competition weightlifters try these sort of bows (Eddie Hall, Brian Shaw,The Stoltman brothers,Mitchell Hooper ect.), to really compare Joe's purpose built body with technique Vs raw strength
Eddie would only need a sniff at and invitation and he would be down there in his tank to try
@@lukeorlando4814 Eddie revels in this kind of thing, but I'm not even sure he can move his arms in this way as the bulging muscles limits flexibility.
I'll bet Eddie would LOVE to give this a shot (so to speak). This sort of thing is right up his alley. And he's a real character; he'd be a hoot to watch trying these heavier bows.
Great call, I'm sure Eddie would be up for it.
Joe is an absolute tank! Awesome video love this channel
Joe with Tod = instant click. :)
Honestly, everything with Tod (except with Skallagrim, that guy gives off a bad vibe to me) is an instant watch for me. If it's with Joe, Matt Easton or Toby Capwell I just click even faster :D
That was the most definative demo that Ive seen on these questions.
Not the first time I've had to pause one of Tod's videos to quickly Google something... but "Whisker biscuit"?
I had some concerns what results would turn up! 🤣
Blows my mind how someone can be so into a hobby and not at least try out other versions of it more than he has with compound bows.
250 + joules out of a bow is pretty mad. I am reaching 92 joule within the maximum world archery regulations of 60 pound on a compound bow.
To think that it outclass .17 .22 .25 .32 etc caliber and basically need a hot 380 Auto or regular 38 Special to get into those territories in term of energy and those cartridge can goes close to 20 000 psi of pressure ! ( dont quote me on that im not caliber expert just 10s search). But it really put things into perspective the amount of force it take to build that energy capacity drawing the bow.
I had to take a couple of lbs off the draw weight of my 60lb Hoyt Contender as at the full power the arrows were just 2ft/s above the max allowed arrow speed of 300ft/s for our field archery here in Belgium.
Very fascinating! Highly engaging content and really interesting results. Well done! This makes me want to get into archery.
That is a monster compound bow, the draw weight is getting in crossbow territory.
That was awesome!! I love archery!! Well done!
Might need some sturdier fletchings and a way stiffer spine, but hell yeah, that's awesome
Hello from Canada, that archer is an absolute legend!
What would be really interesting is to compare graphs of the measured draw-weight vs draw-distance of the two bows (ie, what we see at 2:45). Doing the same measurements for a compound recurve bow would be fascinating too. Oh, and for different types of crossbow while you're at it (compound, steel, ratchet, etc...). If you've already got the rig at hand to measure it this would be super fascinating stuff that drills right to the heart of why different bows behave differently and feel different. I've seen theoretical graphs of modern bows of this stuff, but real measurements of accurate replicas would be priceless.
31:00 I'll take you up on that Tod! One thing that would the draw-weight graphs would tell us is the efficiency of the bow. The area under that graph is the energy stored in the bow, put in there by Joe. We know the energy of the arrow on release from that table. The ratio of those two energies is the efficiency of the bow. Seeing the difference in efficiency between compound bows, long bows, but also recurve / composite bows would be super interesting. And crossbows too, I suspect we'd see a massive drop in efficiency between composite crossbows and steel crossbows, because of how much energy gets diverted to the steel's motion.
I'd be more interested in the reverse of that curve - not the energy into the system but how it is delivered to the projectile. With modern composite technologies we might be at the point where we both can and we really need to slow the initial power delivery more and have it ramp up more rapidly once the arrow is already moving - only got a 30 odd inch draw on a bow to work with so you can't be too gradual if you want to transfer much energy but it looks like the inertia of the head is just too high and far too much of the power is being lost to elastic deformation of the arrow shaft.
@@foldionepapyrus3441 That would be good too, but considering it happens in a few dozen miliseconds its might be hard to measure. But from the area under the loading graph and the arrow energy at launch, you can easily compute the bow efficiency (it's just the ratio of the two). The difference between the two is how much energy is "lost" within the bow itself.
@@QuantumHistorian The bow and Arrow both have impact on the efficiency overall though. From what we saw on those few shots I'd suggest the arrow was actually a limiting factor here, and probably by quite a bit - it looks like couldn't take such brutal initial acceleration and was flapping around really quite badly.
With a high speed camera it shouldn't be that hard to get a reasonable measure of how the bow delivers its power - have a clip on weight as an arrow simulator so all the mass is actually at the nock end directly on the string rather than being delivered into a giant spring of the arrow itself. Other methods possible too.
The point being then you can then separate the variable of the arrow from the bow, and probably more accurately fine tune the bow to deliver power in a way that doesn't get wasted by the arrow (at least with fancy composite technologies - really is mindblowing just how selective you can be once you know what you want).
Awsome job guys❤❤ congrats on the heavyest bow.!!!😮😮😮
Poor fella at the end wasn’t doin so well😂😂😂❤❤❤🙏🙏👍👍🇬🇧🇬🇧💎💎
So, a couple of things. First, I couldn't see the let off on the super bow, although I guess? it did?
Second, I'm an American, so of course I'm a gun owner (and gunsmith) and the super bow was shooting what is essentially a knife with 3 blades, and the same kinetic energy as a .380, or 9 mm short.
"Yikes".
Good work Joe and Todd!
Thanks and glad you found it interesting
It definitely did let off at the end of the draw, you can see him stabilize a lot when he goes to aim. I'm sure it's still a crazy amount of force compared to a competition target bow but much less than the peak draw weight of that thing
ignore momentum. Yikes !
Collaboration!
World Record!!
The only man measuring velocity in javelins/frames!!!
Jokes aside, thank you all; this is unbelievably impressive and cool.
With all that modern technology, the arrow even at that short distance barely penetrated the armour, it just goes to show how strong the armour of the time actually was.
A great watch Gents 👍 fascinating. Thankyou.
0:12 for a good second there i thought you got Joe right from the back lmao
My wife said he looks like a baby stretching when he's shooting... i think it's a compliment. Anyway, awesome video as always!
I can draw any bow, regardless of the draw weight. Could easily draw a 500lb one.
Just give me a pencil and paper.
Absolutely love your work fellas!
I don't think I'd want to arm wrestle Joe .??
I'd be far more worried about a tug of war.
@MumrikDK 8 v his right arm ???
Unreal on many different levels. The man is a humble beast. I laugh thinking about him pulling the rope to start a stubborn lawnmower, there he is with the engine pulled completely off thinking “Not again…”
Joe´s an amazing moster of a archer, repect man. Cool video guys :D
this was a great video, congrats Joe and Tod you guys are professionals