@@tods_workshop This is exactly what you talk about in your experiment, people from the past were not dumb, neither are most modern people, we make observations all the time and make decisions based on them without really even thinking about it on a conscious level. You made the decision to use the lighter cross bow based on your repeatable observation that at a shorter range the lighter weapon had the same penetration powers as your lock down longbow. As pointed out by Major Fallacy that's called similitude modeling, Who knew? LOL. I think a lot of people understand concepts and principals learned through living life and don't know the terms for what they even know. I think an astute person might call your observations science. ;-). Great work as usual and great science.
Well, assuming the velocity at the target was the same for the lighter bow at close range, as it was for the heavy bow at long range, then the energy and momentum of the arrows will be the same and the results will be directly comparable. The only variable will be Tod's ability to hit the target, which isn't what we're testing here :)
Nice to see you around here Drach, yet I am surprised that you manage given the amount of content you put out... Please give me some of that time manipulation tech
in those regions where horse archers dominated, a chain mail called "pancir" was typical, in which, with a thickness of 1.4 mm flattened wire, the inner diameter of the ring was 4-5mm, i.e. the arrow always had to tear two rings
@@tods_workshop I think that might have been the point of the 7mm inner diameter mail sample, the head would probably need to sever more links to get through.
Are there any pictures of pancir armour? Couldn't find anything when i searched for it. It is not likely, but pancir could be a germanism, in german "Panzer" doesn't only mean "tank", but also "shell" (the ones that turtles have) and "armour plate".
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 here is a good start ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%8C_(%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%87%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0) There's no single idea of where this word is coming from, with most theories revolving around Greek, Italian and other European sources. And, as always, words meant different things at different time - nowadays, for example, pantsir would be more associated with either a carapace or a plate armor.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 in the photo, it is not distinguishable from a chain mail. The only thing that they write is that the German and Cherkasy (Cherkasy is another name for the Cossacks) pancir were relatively short 55-75 cm. and the weight is 3.5-5.5 kg, Russian (Moscow) were up to 90 cm and weighing up to 11 kg. Perhaps it is necessary to search with an indication that this is a chain mail. Otherwise, the search will give out from a tank and an anti-aircraft missile system, to a plate armor.
Hi Tod, It's interesting that there are parallels in this arrow vs mail/gamebeson scenario to a rifle bullet vs modern body armor (ceramic and kevlar). Modern hard body armor is effective because the ceramic acts as an abrasive on the striking bullet, causing significant deformation and fragmentation (similar to mail blunting or dulling a striking arrow). That deformed and fragmented bullet is then caught by the kevlar (like the blunted and dulled arrow is caught in the gambeson). If the order were to be reversed, the rifle bullet would pass through the kevlar without any trouble, and then deform/fragment through the ceramic and into the body. Just like how the arrow would pass easily through the gambeson, be blunted by the mail, and pass into the body. And for the same reason you would want to use a sharpened steel arrowhead in an attempt to reduce the deformation from the mail and increase penetration, bullets designed for defeating modern body armor include hardened steel and tungsten cores. The more things change, the more they stay the same ;) And great work as always. Cheers!
Don't forget the anti-spalling material around hard plates to reduce the likelihood of bullet fragments spraying into the neck and face of the wearer, much like the lip on the steel breastplate shown in the very first such test Todd did which deflected arrowheads and wood shrapnel away from the head and neck in medieval combat.
Even naval armor uses the same basic principle, with hardened steel on the outside and softer steel behind it. Face hardening lets you do this within a single armor plate, but the idea is the same.
@@alltat It would be interesting to see a demonstration of Medieval arrows against modern body armor. Soft armor at least. Don't think arrows will penetrate AR500 steel or the military version.
The more things change, the more people try to impose that change upon the past. ;) No one actually wore gambeson like this under mail, unless they were some poor soldier trying to work with scavenged armor that was far too big for them. Todd's tests can show whatever they like, but wearing mail over that much padding is still ahistorical.
Other considerations: The mail backed by thick fabric dissipates percussive strikes - axe, maces, fists etc. And mail prevents cuts from getting to the fabric, which was expensive - the mail will likely take no damage from cuts. Just to note that arrows/bolts weren't the only weapons on the battlefield. An impressive test and a very apt comparison with modern armor.
I think that is actually an extremely important reason for the worst casualties of battles occurring during a rout (Usually). You aren't likely to significantly injure or kill a person through proper medieval armor from all the videos like this that I've seen if you're using spears, hand axes, swords, etc. Only a few weapons really strike me as being truly devastating against armor, mostly stuff like two handed axes, halberds, a mace, etc. Which means that to kill someone, you probably have to get around their shield and armor by going for soft spots at the right time. During a rout, when the infantry is disorganized and fleeing, the enemy cavalry has free reign to ride the losers down with lances, and all the power of their horses behind strikes with maces or axes. Lances were capable of punching a hole straight through plate armor, with several tests indicating forces of 1800-3000psi on impact. I don't care how thick your mail armor is, or how tough the gambeson is underneath, if that pointy stick hits square, you're toast. This is a bit of a tangent but typing this out did strike me as very similar to the modern concept of armor efficiency that I've seen, which is determined by Capability, Coverage, and Comfort. What does your armor need to stop? How much of your body do you need to protect to prevent yourself from becoming a fatality? How much of the time that you are in danger, do you expect to be able to wear it. If your armor can stop 90% of the incoming threats, to 70% of your body, 100% of the time (During a major battle) then your armor is 86.6% efficient in keeping you alive. I've seen estimates using that method that modern body armor worn by soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan was less than 40% effective, because it covers hardly anything, and soldiers aren't going to wear their helmet and a plate carrier while they sleep. If the medieval soldier is only really vulnerable to to small areas and specific weapons during battle, they were far, far better protected than modern soldiers, which would explain the vast majority of battles in antiquity having fairly low casualty numbers despite very, very large force sizes.
even if the mail is damaged, it is easier to replace a couple links in a hauberk than to darn 10+ layers of quilted cloth in a gambeson, because if you only repair the top layer it isn't going to protect as well.
@@tods_workshop materials science doesn’t change - some materials have better protective capabilities against a specific weapon or projectile type, so if you want good general purpose protection you combine different materials into your “composite armour” - great video as ever, thanks for all your awesome experimental archeology!
@@tods_workshop A lot of the stuff you've shown on the channel reminded me in one way or another of my time in the military, The way the wore their gear, the armor, the way they even have protection against splinters from a fragmenting projectile... it's REALLY not that far removed from what we do today. Even down to the weight of their gear and how they distribute it along the body. I bet if you brought them into today you could explain modern gear to them relatively easily. Sure they wouldn't get the tech.. but the principles? They would TOTALLY get that.
@@tods_workshop On another note, I think that's why work as you and others do here is so important. Who knows what techniques and methods they had back then that we forgot about that might be ideal solutions to new problems in the future if we slightly modify and modernize them. We should absolutely not dismiss the tech of the past as inferior. It absolutely wasn't.
Yes,watched it,in ancient time iron or steel plate light weight plus circle or chain lock iron or steel plate as outer layer which is double layer would be enough for 10th-14th maile light armor.If that time people smart enough use textile,clothes ,wet compression method to form as brick layer of stuff ,strong and stubby surface as inner layer,which would be enough to stop cross bow,long bow pushing forces to penetrate into bodies.Wet compression method of textile,blankets or clothes of 2-3 layer,would also stopped all later on mustket bullets in matchlock,wheellock and flintlock at all.21th,Wet compression method of toilet paper of 3-4 layers,strong,stuff and stubby to stop all 20th-21th non ballistic bullets as Magnum,,most of handgun,pistols bullets can stopped it penetrated at all.😄😁😃
Makes perfect sense. The mail creates a larger surface area for the impact momentum to be absorbed by the cushioning padding. Since the arrowhead will move the mail links before penetrating them they become a larger "head", which means more of the force is absorbed through the padding. Slowing the arrow down before it has to work through the padding itself. I think the blunting of the arrowheads compounds this further of course, but I suspect the same test with mail on the outside and blunter arrowheads would make the same results. Meaning the blunter heads might be less of an important factor. This is of course not true if the padding is one the outside.
I recall reading a history which stated that, at the battle of Arsuf, Saladin's forces were amazed at how the crusaders marched along with arrows projecting through their tabards like porcupines
@@rishi7629 Utter nonsense. The forces that comprised Saladin's armies used Egyptian, Turkic and Mesopotamian laminated recurve bows as powerful and with a faster a release speed than an English 15th Century longbow.
Good to see you again! Could you also discuss how the mail failed? Did the rings burst at the at the rivet, the lips holding the rivet or the wire? It would be interesting to see if say a 1.4mm diameter ring could be made stronger than a 2mm ring against piercing attacks by means of fortifying the rivet.
HI Dushin, Actually I can't tell you exactly as the maille has gone back to Isak, but what I remember was that it was the rivets pulling, but maybe Isak can pop in and give us his analysis
seems to me that you want to repair in the field having it pop the rivets might be a plus. simply re-rivet the rings and you are good to go. of course if you buy your own armor you probably would rather bring some spare rings and then reinforce the rivets so it protects better. this might help explain some decisions of empires like China's when they had the ability to make better armor but kept with the chain/scale types. the extra cost of repairing such things in the field might cost more than replacement troops.
Always excited when a new Tod's Workshop pops up, have enjoyed the put it to the test mentality of trying to answer seemingly unanswerable questions. Please keep doing what you do!
This test may be a good candidate for doubling the mail on the chest as per examples on the Bayeux Tapestry. Either used as a face mask (folded up) or a chest piece (folded down). Also, if there are overlapping sheets of mail, even better. Think of a mail aventail on top of a mail hauberk or better.
The problem with doubling is weight and mobility. However the specifics you suggest certainly sound plausible and workable. I wouldn't want to wear a whole second hauberk in to battle but a bib overlapping my vitals seems like it would be worth the weight.
@@johnladuke6475 I think Lee is talking about those examples that have an additional rectangular patch of maille over the vitals, not a whole second hauberk.
There's a second mechanical effect going on. The gambeson seems to be much softer that the foam, therefore it reduces the forces that the maille has to withstant. It's like hitting a rock that's fixed in place with a hammer, there you have great forces. if instead the rock lies lose and can move, the forces are much lower, since it can accelerate.
from what i've read in the norwegian kings mirror, there's actually 3 layers of protection for the body: gambeson - maille - gambeson. so the maille actually serves as a middle layer. i'd imagine the upper gambeson slows down the arrow, the maille blunts it on the 2nd layer, and the 3rd layer gambeson stops the arrow. in addition, it seems like they had a steel plate protecting the bowels under the maille, and over the 2nd gambeson. i'm guessing they considered the ribs as a secondary form of armour...
Nice stuff! Can you make a video to demonstrate what difference ring size does? Smaller diameter rings typically are made out of thinner wires as far as I can tell, but you would have to break several rings to mortally injure the bearer. Some people say it is both lighter and better, but I have never seen a comparison.
Hey Tod, would love to see Maile vs rondel, spear and other weapons that are generally considered “armour piercing.” Arms and armour did a video on it and would love to see if your results
I'd love to see someone try to move in that, the mail over the thick gambeson. Lots of people bring up mobility and dexterity being an issue but I've also seen people sprint and roll around in plate armor so it would be nice to see the comparison!
This is really interesting, and seeing how those arrows all stuck in, you can imagine that someone shot by a few of those would be severely hindered even if they took no damage whatsoever.
Hi Tod, Really enjoyed your video, as always. I know nothing about armors in general, but some years ago I made a hand made poor quality maille and read a bit about them, so I wanted to share with you this idea I had about mail link spread: because of the way they get linked, links can easily spread or get tight in one direction (from top to bottom, if you look at 0:47) while they can't so easily get tight in the 90º direction (from left to right, at 0:47). When you wear mail, you don't want those spreadable links to spread due to gravity: you want them sideways, so they mount on each other over your body, making the mail as dense as it can. Having the spreadable direction falling from your shoulders would cause your mail to be like (1), with as much room between them as there can be, while having them sideways would made you be like (2). That makes possible that differente size people could wear the same mail (the smaller ones would be more protected due to more collapsed links sideways, while the bigger ones would have a lesser collapsed links, but could fit in it). If you made them like (1) Medium size, a small person would have a lot of non collapsable links around them making it uncomfortable and not gaining protection, while a big person wouldn't fit in it. 1 ununununununu 2 ((((((((((((( ununununununu ))))))))))))) ununununununu ((((((((((((( When you shot gambeson before mail, mail was (1). When you shot mail before gambeson, mail was (2). I think this could be a reason for the first arrows to always go through one single link, while hitting several links almost stopped the second ones (apart from the gambeson-mail/mail-gambeson think, which would probably helps too). I do barely know anything about medieval stuff and possibly I am terribly wrong or maybe you considered this, but I just thought about this and wanted to share it. Thank you very much for your effort and your amazing videos.
Great tests as always. I also wonder how much difference it makes for the mail to hang more losely and with a wider piece. Do we know how tight mail armour was supposed to be worn? If it hangs a bit below the chest area a ripple effect might absorb more of the energy.
Not only can loose maile absorb some more energy - as more of its own mass will get moved before the link failure, but in the process its more likely to twist the arrow off course so its loosing penetration power to the rotation, if it even still hits the man beneath. I'd like to see that test to find out how much. But more important to this test I would like to see just how hard mail is to penetrate when its backed by something 'solid' - I wonder how much of the extra penetration of gambeson first has nothing to do with blunting the arrow but that the foam behind being so compressable all the arrows energy only interacts with the link it hit - with a 'solid' backing - or stitching the mail to the gambeson frequently - anything so the force on that hit link is spread more readily I expect there would be a significant reduction in penetration too. Would still expect it to be the worse orientation, but it would be informative to just how much the blunting effect is kicking in. Plus mail on top is the obvious winner - gambeson will be more comfortable on skin, and maile will blunt and snag penetrating weapons and take little to no harm from cutting weapons, where the other way round the gamebson will get mangled in every fight, and the mail is bound to be pulling your body hairs here and there or pinching most uncomfortably..
@@foldionepapyrus3441 A good air pocket between the gambeson and person will also help. In paintball we often pull our shirts/jerseys slightly out of our harness belts to hang loose. This sometimes results in a bounce rather than a break for tournament play. It's not a guarantee but it does help. Having to evacuate all that trapped air before penetration of the arrow head can begin is just another way of dissipating energy.
@@tods_workshop Nothing wrong with your method as a simulation of certain areas of the body - around the shoulders and perhaps belt that helps carries the weight it will be more like this. However, one method you could try to simulate a more loosely hung setup is screwing the mail into a small block of wood on top of the gambeson foam stack, to provide just a little air gap and with slack. So it is slightly spaced off the gamebson and not in tension from anything but its own weight. I'd then wire a few extra weights to the bottom links so its carrying a simulation of the mass of the rest of the mail. Still not a perfect test - but you are not going to get human volunteer...
@@tods_workshop Of course. Love your content, keep it up! and at the end of the day, staying unharmed on a battlefield sometimes just comes down to good old fashioned luck. a twig beats plate armour if it gets jammed into your eyesocket :D
One thing is that you were shooting square on - I would really like to see is there any difference if you get hit at an angle of 20/30 degrees as in a battle you won't be hit only square on (plus you would probably have shield in front)
I think what Todd showed in this test is that maille and gambeson can protect you from the arrow shot from longbow at certain distance. Of coz adding angles will increase the protection.
Each time I heard Tod exclaim "yes!" it took me to what an archer on the battlefield would/might have said... Heartily agree we underestimate the ability / intelligence of historical peoples. I mean, many aqueducts are still standing, aren't they?
Even against a sword, I'd still want the soft padding underneath the maille. Just because the sword's blade can't cut you, that doesn't mean it can't severely bruise you or even break bones.
An excellent video, as always! As far as i know, it is the first test on youtube using quality handmade mail against a weapon, and it clearly shows how excellent the mail and gambeson combo is at keeping you alive. Those arrows would have barely hurt the wearer. Thank you for providing us with information about historival arms and armour, without this channel, i wouldnt have any kniwledge about these things.
@@greatnoblelord I didnt mean to imply that the wearer wouldd be perfectly fine, im sorry if it came through that way. I just wanted to point out, that contrary to common belief, the armour prevents a killing blow from an arrow at 10 m.
Quite fascinating how big of a difference a material flip can do for ya, and of course they back then knew of it as well! Glad you brought up tank armor, the composite armor used in modern warfare vehicles is quite complicated but there's always a reason to which layer ends up where and which layer ends up thicker. Obviously to maximize defense qualities and weight/financial qualities. Like the armor back then, you don't want too much bold material because that gets heavy rather quickly and that can be quite expensive, so you would want to get the most out of what you got. Thousands of years apart and the principles still remain, don't underestimate smart layering techniques and effective resourcefulness!
This was one of the lighter maille samples, and catching two links really stopped the arrows. So I want to see what a thicker/closer woven maille would do.
Great video the mail was actually better than I expected against the arrows...it makes such a big difference when you have well crafted mail. Gambeson on the inside is also a lot more comfortable so works out well.
Wow! What an eye-opener. It came as no surprise to me that arrows would not go through a steel breastplate, but I thought they'd go straight through maille and gambeson.
Hey Tod! Love video as ever! Maybe interesting: shoot the mail+gambeson from a 45 degree angle? If I would be advancing in an arrow storm I would present my side (+shield) to minimise area and maximise defection. I would guess the links in the mail are much more sturdy when hit from the side. Cheers!
As you say composite. In addition Then you can minimise the really expensive/heavy plate over the most vital areas. Totally analogous to todays modern body armour and plate carriers.
In 15th century at least, mail generally became more expensive than munitions grade/average plate defenses. Large furnaces, water powered hammers, specialization and organisation of work processes allowed to hammer out, shape, heat treat large metal sheets relatively quickly. While it's no real way to speed up extremely laborious and tedious process of making thousands or rings, rivets and them putting them together. So it stayed very expensive. Still was being worn a lot, by anyone who could afford it .
Having the gambeson behind the mail allows the mail to absorb more kinetic energy, which is why it offers more resistance to the arrowheads. When the gambeson is on the outside the point cuts through the cloth, barely slowing down before it strikes the mail.
Awesome test!! I would very much like to see needle-bodkins against the mail....also maybe a shot from a closer distance (160lbs simulator from a longer distance) just to cover more variables. Thanks Tod, for doing these brilliant testing videos! Its always a pleasure to watch them!
I read somewhere (forgot where) that boiled leather was added as a "breastplate" on the outside to further reduce arrow penetration on maille. That would very much fit with the composite armor approach.
There was also a thing called "double mail". We don't know exactly what it was, but it apparently worked even against hardened, armor-piercing arrows (like the ones the Mongols used). If it was one hauberk over another (with light padding between to prevent the two hauberks from catching onto each other), it might also fit with the whole "composite armor" thing. Or it was one of other possibilities, but either way, it was really good.
@@toothclaw6985 it could also be a single hauberk made of double rings. So each link is actually two rings parallel. Would be the same weight as your suggestion and easier to wear.
What i've learnt about armour is that it's not about nullifying arrows/blows it's about minimizing damage to the body. The more it can stop the better it is of course but just because it penetrates a little bit doesn't make it useless as some might think.
R&D engineer with experience on ballistic mechanics for armour purposes: your conclusion of it blunting the arrow and reducing penetration because of it is correct. in ceramics, the face hardness and subsequent ablation/deformation of the penetrator is far, FAR and away the most important part of the armor. secondarily the backing material being able to capture and retain the penetrator to blunt the distribution of impact is the other major factor.
I love the lockdown longbow and the lighter weight bow at closer distance is a great replacement. The only difference I can think of is the angle the arrow would strike at if shot from a long distance. The speed would be very similar but would it have a less flat trajectory meaning it would not split single rings so cleanly, perhaps increasing the performance of the composite armour?
I am a professional scientist and designer of biotech products, with an interest in gaming and weapons. I appreciate the scientific approach that you take to these trials enormously. At this point, my wife and two sons like to tune in when they hear about one of your trials. Keep it up!
@@tods_workshop Well, your approach is to control for the variables. Whether or not you have formal credentials as a scientist, you are performing these trials to get a sense of how these things work, and in that, you are working as a scientist.
Another legendary video. You're not going to be happy getting hit wearing the mail on the outside, but being angry is good, b/c you cant be angry if your dead.
It looks a tad frosty out Sir, should I warm your maille?' 'Good grief Smithers, what kind of sycophant are you?' 'What kind would you like me to be Sir?'
I really hate the popular notion that people from the past were unintelligent (i.e. chronological snobbery) That's why I love studies of old technology as they give a bit of an insight into how much thought went into this sort of thing, so thank you, Tod.
160 pound longbow at 75 meters. That is still a proper war bow at a proper distance. With shots from a bow that is less then 160 pounds i could see the shots not penetrating the armor at all. Even though we always hear mail isn't good against penetration, the composite armor really makes it work. Which is probably also why it was used for such a long period of time. It was effective at both stopping penetrating attacks and cuts up to a certain level. Great video as always Tod.
Good point to bring up modern body armor. Level IV armor is designed to stop 30 caliber steel core armor piercing. They typically use 2 types of material, a ceramic and different material. A lightweight but thick material is UHMWPE, which is atrocious at stopping any hard metal. The ceramic causes the bullet to start tumbling, which allows the UHMWPE to catch instead of stopping.
Interesting. For modern composite body armour, you'd put ceramic in the front and some sort of kevlar in the rear. The ceramic forces the projectile to dump a lot of its energy as it breaks apart, as well as deform the round causing it to mushroom, allowing the kevlar underneath the catch it. In many ways this is similar to what we saw with the maille.
Hi Tod, This is mostly just a bit of hearsay from armour forums and HEMA practice, but have you (or anyone here for that matter) considered the possibility of a three layer armour, consisting of gambeson/padded surcoat, over maille, over gambeson? If maille is ubiquitously worn over some form of padding, then perhaps this is the setup shown when maille is depicted under a padded garment in artwork (i.e. Morgan Bible folio 10r)? Also to respond to comments about loose fitting maille, although I cannot comment on its efficacy in reenactment, regarding its historicity medieval artwork consistently depicts maille as a tight fitting garment, shown in works such as the the Morgan Bible but also on contemporary stone effigies.
I think the biggest issue would the the weight and heat of said setup. Adding on so much padding would slow down the human form quite a bit in battle, plus the added effect of overheating the person's body that's being protected since they are wearing the equivalent of a full bed spread as a form of protection. The dehydration would be rough enough outside of combat, much less within it. However, I do think this idea is of merit. If we consider the evolution of plate armor in this respect, we can look at how brigandine armor is employed. With a soft exterior for decoration and padding, as well as a plated interior to catch the kinetic energy of arrows, the wearer of said armor could add additional gambeson to said outfit underneath. The metal plates would still function the same as the mail as described in Tod's video, but you could circumvent the issues of padded weight and thermal overload of the body by not requiring as much padding for the same protective effect.
@@Magus_Union And we also see the same setup with a distinct padded garment, the Jupon, worn over plate and presumably a thin arming jack, during the 14th century.
According to the kings mirror a norwegian highborn in 13th century should have from the outside : gambison vest, mail shirt, coat of plates, gambeson jacket. Í would love to see Tod shoot that combination.
i would be super interested in seeing the difference the tension/spreading of the maille makes. Often with a hauberk the maille hangs in a way where the rings overlap more than when it is pulled to be "taut". I wonder if this slightly greater overlap of rings would cause a significant difference
So if you shot a: -freshly sharpened arrow -arrow blunted by punching through mail into a gambeson, what would the difference in penetration be like? Without the mail.
Agree. I suspect the chainmail is just acting mostly by spreading the force over a large area and the gambeson acts like a compression spring to further retard the mail. I know the impact of sharpening heads has been looked at previously but not sure the dulling of the cutting head is solely responsible for the improved penetration. In truth I suspect the combination works for a number of different reasons likely found by trial and painful error (or natural selection!!!).
@@robinbiddlecombe9202 I found out how hard boiled leather is after leaving a leather belt on a pair of jeans that needed a seriously good wash. It was like a rock hard plastic! I ended up using a hammer to break it into pieces.
My roman maille requires a belt that relieves the shoulders from some of the weight. However, because freedom of movement is needed, the maille hangs a bit loosely from my shoulders, even with a subarmalis/gambeson on. The practical effect is that any incoming hits will first move the maille, which would dissipate some of the force. Then when the maille contacts the subarmalis, more force will be dissipated by compressing and moving the subarmalis - and after that will the splitting of the rings occur. Roman maille, just like Medieval maille, could use variable ID rings. The smaller rings with the tighter fit were on the front, where the majority of hits were expected. Roman maille used rings used rings with ID 5-7 mm and wire with 1 - 1.5 mm. Such tight fit practically means an arrow will have to split at least two, probably more rings. As for the rings popping, it's more often the riveted rings tearing at the rivet hole, because that section is less than half of the section of the solid wire. TLDR: use tighter maille with some give to simulate more realistic battle conditions. When you attach the maille to the gambeson patch, don't extend it. Rather, bunch it a bit more closely and then attach it to the gambeson. Sure, the target would be a bit smaller, but the bunching would let the rings move a bit. In the four corners of the gambeson, where you attach it to the insulation, you could raise the gambeson off the surface by putting something like 4mm rubber or leather patches - this would allow some give, but not too much.
Love your videos. My only issue is that by firing close range, at what ever bow weight. The arrow or bolt will be flying in an almost flat projector making it easier to penetrate. At obtuse angles caused my arching projectiles in, the point will meet heavier resistance. Keep up the great content!
Great stuff Tod as always. Always so interesting. As I was watching I had a thought - You had the maille pinned TIGHT. I wonder if it was a bit more draped instead of being tight would that take even more of the energy out of the arrow due to the fact that the arrows energy is being dissipated through the 'curtain' of maille, if you will, and so then giving the fabric a even more a chance... Just a thought...
I've been thinking about it as well, and looking at some experiments out there, it does seem that mail hanging somehow loosely performs way better. th-cam.com/video/8c3W3ks7O9g/w-d-xo.html It's definitely hard to come up with optimaly realistic conditions without actually shooting someone wearing mail. On the other hand, it does seem like maille was being tailored to actually fit quite tight in period. It saves weight and bulk for sure.
@@lscibor Yeah it would make sense that it would be tighter than loose - Every piece of metal was precious back then. And I suppose there is no point being safe from every single arrow that might come at you if when the arrows stop and the swords are out you can't move under sheets and sheets of maille. Thanks for the link. I'll have a looks at that 👍👍
@@joshuadunn882 The people in tight mail would usually be wealthy knights, and for them the "every precious bit" wouldn't really apply all that much. In fact tailoring mail that well would most likely be way more expensive than few pounds of iron more. All in all even tight mail would still move around a lot because it wouldn't be fixed to any point like with those pins Tod uses. That may be the catch. I wonder if you couldn't buy cheapest, disposable butted/riveted mail, put a hole in it, and "sew" in the mail patch like those Tod has. So it has properties of actual hauberk without spending fortune on entire hauberk of hand made mail.
Please test all of the maille Isak sent you in future videos, maybe in part 2-5. Isak, being one of the best maille-maker in the current market, lovingly made each and every samples for you to test, it would be the best to appreciate his intentions
@@tods_workshop C'mon Tod, we're the kind of people who watch your almost 1hr vids. Just like how you test each target with different arrowheads shapes, sharpness, and hardness; testing each armour to see how whether the 0.6mm makes any difference is something we would watch.
An idea for future test? Doubling the mail shirts at vital place seemed to be common in France footmen. Pretty sure it more than double the protection (not linear), especially if the shirts are slightly too big and floating to better absorb the impact.
I've always thought it obvious to wear the gambeson under the mail. A sword can damage fabric more easily than it can damage iron. The mail stops a blade from cutting, and the gambeson absorbs/dissipates the blunt force. It follows that it should do the same for arrows. Very interesting to see it demonstrated though.
Using the lighter bow at a closer range isn't cheating, it's similitude modeling and engineers do it all the time
If you understand anything about physics, then you should be okay with it.
Thanks Maor Fallacy - I didn't know the word for it
@@tods_workshop This is exactly what you talk about in your experiment, people from the past were not dumb, neither are most modern people, we make observations all the time and make decisions based on them without really even thinking about it on a conscious level. You made the decision to use the lighter cross bow based on your repeatable observation that at a shorter range the lighter weapon had the same penetration powers as your lock down longbow. As pointed out by Major Fallacy that's called similitude modeling, Who knew? LOL. I think a lot of people understand concepts and principals learned through living life and don't know the terms for what they even know. I think an astute person might call your observations science. ;-). Great work as usual and great science.
Well, assuming the velocity at the target was the same for the lighter bow at close range, as it was for the heavy bow at long range, then the energy and momentum of the arrows will be the same and the results will be directly comparable.
The only variable will be Tod's ability to hit the target, which isn't what we're testing here :)
@@cr10001 actually, doing a closer shot at lower power helps eliminate the variable of Tod's accuracy from the discussion.
And that's good science!
Same principles in ironclads, compound and Harvey/Krupp steel for warships :)
Nice to see you around here Drach, yet I am surprised that you manage given the amount of content you put out... Please give me some of that time manipulation tech
Waiting for the next part of the Ironclad series!
Ditto for torpedo defence systems.
look who i see floating by :P
So what is Harvey/Krupp steel? Or is that in one of your videos?
in those regions where horse archers dominated, a chain mail called "pancir" was typical, in which, with a thickness of 1.4 mm flattened wire, the inner diameter of the ring was 4-5mm, i.e. the arrow always had to tear two rings
Thanks - interesting
@@tods_workshop I think that might have been the point of the 7mm inner diameter mail sample, the head would probably need to sever more links to get through.
Are there any pictures of pancir armour? Couldn't find anything when i searched for it. It is not likely, but pancir could be a germanism, in german "Panzer" doesn't only mean "tank", but also "shell" (the ones that turtles have) and "armour plate".
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 here is a good start ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%8C_(%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%87%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0)
There's no single idea of where this word is coming from, with most theories revolving around Greek, Italian and other European sources. And, as always, words meant different things at different time - nowadays, for example, pantsir would be more associated with either a carapace or a plate armor.
@@valentinmitterbauer4196 in the photo, it is not distinguishable from a chain mail. The only thing that they write is that the German and Cherkasy (Cherkasy is another name for the Cossacks) pancir were relatively short 55-75 cm. and the weight is 3.5-5.5 kg, Russian (Moscow) were up to 90 cm and weighing up to 11 kg. Perhaps it is necessary to search with an indication that this is a chain mail. Otherwise, the search will give out from a tank and an anti-aircraft missile system, to a plate armor.
Hi Tod,
It's interesting that there are parallels in this arrow vs mail/gamebeson scenario to a rifle bullet vs modern body armor (ceramic and kevlar). Modern hard body armor is effective because the ceramic acts as an abrasive on the striking bullet, causing significant deformation and fragmentation (similar to mail blunting or dulling a striking arrow). That deformed and fragmented bullet is then caught by the kevlar (like the blunted and dulled arrow is caught in the gambeson). If the order were to be reversed, the rifle bullet would pass through the kevlar without any trouble, and then deform/fragment through the ceramic and into the body. Just like how the arrow would pass easily through the gambeson, be blunted by the mail, and pass into the body.
And for the same reason you would want to use a sharpened steel arrowhead in an attempt to reduce the deformation from the mail and increase penetration, bullets designed for defeating modern body armor include hardened steel and tungsten cores.
The more things change, the more they stay the same ;)
And great work as always. Cheers!
Exactly what I was thinking. Fascinating.
Don't forget the anti-spalling material around hard plates to reduce the likelihood of bullet fragments spraying into the neck and face of the wearer, much like the lip on the steel breastplate shown in the very first such test Todd did which deflected arrowheads and wood shrapnel away from the head and neck in medieval combat.
Even naval armor uses the same basic principle, with hardened steel on the outside and softer steel behind it. Face hardening lets you do this within a single armor plate, but the idea is the same.
@@alltat It would be interesting to see a demonstration of Medieval arrows against modern body armor. Soft armor at least. Don't think arrows will penetrate AR500 steel or the military version.
The more things change, the more people try to impose that change upon the past. ;)
No one actually wore gambeson like this under mail, unless they were some poor soldier trying to work with scavenged armor that was far too big for them. Todd's tests can show whatever they like, but wearing mail over that much padding is still ahistorical.
Other considerations: The mail backed by thick fabric dissipates percussive strikes - axe, maces, fists etc. And mail prevents cuts from getting to the fabric, which was expensive - the mail will likely take no damage from cuts.
Just to note that arrows/bolts weren't the only weapons on the battlefield.
An impressive test and a very apt comparison with modern armor.
I think that is actually an extremely important reason for the worst casualties of battles occurring during a rout (Usually). You aren't likely to significantly injure or kill a person through proper medieval armor from all the videos like this that I've seen if you're using spears, hand axes, swords, etc. Only a few weapons really strike me as being truly devastating against armor, mostly stuff like two handed axes, halberds, a mace, etc. Which means that to kill someone, you probably have to get around their shield and armor by going for soft spots at the right time.
During a rout, when the infantry is disorganized and fleeing, the enemy cavalry has free reign to ride the losers down with lances, and all the power of their horses behind strikes with maces or axes. Lances were capable of punching a hole straight through plate armor, with several tests indicating forces of 1800-3000psi on impact. I don't care how thick your mail armor is, or how tough the gambeson is underneath, if that pointy stick hits square, you're toast.
This is a bit of a tangent but typing this out did strike me as very similar to the modern concept of armor efficiency that I've seen, which is determined by Capability, Coverage, and Comfort. What does your armor need to stop? How much of your body do you need to protect to prevent yourself from becoming a fatality? How much of the time that you are in danger, do you expect to be able to wear it. If your armor can stop 90% of the incoming threats, to 70% of your body, 100% of the time (During a major battle) then your armor is 86.6% efficient in keeping you alive. I've seen estimates using that method that modern body armor worn by soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan was less than 40% effective, because it covers hardly anything, and soldiers aren't going to wear their helmet and a plate carrier while they sleep. If the medieval soldier is only really vulnerable to to small areas and specific weapons during battle, they were far, far better protected than modern soldiers, which would explain the vast majority of battles in antiquity having fairly low casualty numbers despite very, very large force sizes.
even if the mail is damaged, it is easier to replace a couple links in a hauberk than to darn 10+ layers of quilted cloth in a gambeson, because if you only repair the top layer it isn't going to protect as well.
Very good tie in to modern armor 👌
Hi - Nothing changes I guess; well of course it all does, but many of the underlying principles stay the same
@@tods_workshop materials science doesn’t change - some materials have better protective capabilities against a specific weapon or projectile type, so if you want good general purpose protection you combine different materials into your “composite armour” - great video as ever, thanks for all your awesome experimental archeology!
@@tods_workshop A lot of the stuff you've shown on the channel reminded me in one way or another of my time in the military, The way the wore their gear, the armor, the way they even have protection against splinters from a fragmenting projectile... it's REALLY not that far removed from what we do today. Even down to the weight of their gear and how they distribute it along the body. I bet if you brought them into today you could explain modern gear to them relatively easily. Sure they wouldn't get the tech.. but the principles? They would TOTALLY get that.
@@tods_workshop On another note, I think that's why work as you and others do here is so important. Who knows what techniques and methods they had back then that we forgot about that might be ideal solutions to new problems in the future if we slightly modify and modernize them. We should absolutely not dismiss the tech of the past as inferior. It absolutely wasn't.
Yes,watched it,in ancient time iron or steel plate light weight plus circle or chain lock iron or steel plate as outer layer which is double layer would be enough for 10th-14th maile light armor.If that time people smart enough use textile,clothes ,wet compression method to form as brick layer of stuff ,strong and stubby surface as inner layer,which would be enough to stop cross bow,long bow pushing forces to penetrate into bodies.Wet compression method of textile,blankets or clothes of 2-3 layer,would also stopped all later on mustket bullets in matchlock,wheellock and flintlock at all.21th,Wet compression method of toilet paper of 3-4 layers,strong,stuff and stubby to stop all 20th-21th non ballistic bullets as Magnum,,most of handgun,pistols bullets can stopped it penetrated at all.😄😁😃
Makes perfect sense.
The mail creates a larger surface area for the impact momentum to be absorbed by the cushioning padding. Since the arrowhead will move the mail links before penetrating them they become a larger "head", which means more of the force is absorbed through the padding. Slowing the arrow down before it has to work through the padding itself.
I think the blunting of the arrowheads compounds this further of course, but I suspect the same test with mail on the outside and blunter arrowheads would make the same results. Meaning the blunter heads might be less of an important factor.
This is of course not true if the padding is one the outside.
Yeah, like a spring.
Agree
I recall reading a history which stated that, at the battle of Arsuf, Saladin's forces were amazed at how the crusaders marched along with arrows projecting through their tabards like porcupines
Much weaker bows.. No more than 100lbs
@@rishi7629 Utter nonsense. The forces that comprised Saladin's armies used Egyptian, Turkic and Mesopotamian laminated recurve bows as powerful and with a faster a release speed than an English 15th Century longbow.
@@rishi7629 not weak bows, but strong armour
Good to see you again!
Could you also discuss how the mail failed? Did the rings burst at the at the rivet, the lips holding the rivet or the wire?
It would be interesting to see if say a 1.4mm diameter ring could be made stronger than a 2mm ring against piercing attacks by means of fortifying the rivet.
HI Dushin, Actually I can't tell you exactly as the maille has gone back to Isak, but what I remember was that it was the rivets pulling, but maybe Isak can pop in and give us his analysis
seems to me that you want to repair in the field having it pop the rivets might be a plus. simply re-rivet the rings and you are good to go. of course if you buy your own armor you probably would rather bring some spare rings and then reinforce the rivets so it protects better. this might help explain some decisions of empires like China's when they had the ability to make better armor but kept with the chain/scale types. the extra cost of repairing such things in the field might cost more than replacement troops.
Always excited when a new Tod's Workshop pops up, have enjoyed the put it to the test mentality of trying to answer seemingly unanswerable questions. Please keep doing what you do!
Glad you enjoyed it!
These are some of my favourite videos of the last year. Fascinating, objective & entertaining. Thanks Tod 👍
Thank you - very kind
This test may be a good candidate for doubling the mail on the chest as per examples on the Bayeux Tapestry. Either used as a face mask (folded up) or a chest piece (folded down). Also, if there are overlapping sheets of mail, even better. Think of a mail aventail on top of a mail hauberk or better.
The problem with doubling is weight and mobility. However the specifics you suggest certainly sound plausible and workable. I wouldn't want to wear a whole second hauberk in to battle but a bib overlapping my vitals seems like it would be worth the weight.
@@johnladuke6475 I think Lee is talking about those examples that have an additional rectangular patch of maille over the vitals, not a whole second hauberk.
There's a second mechanical effect going on. The gambeson seems to be much softer that the foam, therefore it reduces the forces that the maille has to withstant.
It's like hitting a rock that's fixed in place with a hammer, there you have great forces. if instead the rock lies lose and can move, the forces are much lower, since it can accelerate.
I love these "practical history" type tests.
In fact, the lockdown longbow series is what finally got me to sub to the channel.
You discussed this concept in a previous video, and I'm glad to see it tested! Damn fine work as always.
Just great work, as always.
When a new one of your little films come up on my feed, they are the highlight of my day!
Fascinating and intriguing as well as entertaining ... thank you Tod!
Thanks
from what i've read in the norwegian kings mirror, there's actually 3 layers of protection for the body: gambeson - maille - gambeson. so the maille actually serves as a middle layer. i'd imagine the upper gambeson slows down the arrow, the maille blunts it on the 2nd layer, and the 3rd layer gambeson stops the arrow. in addition, it seems like they had a steel plate protecting the bowels under the maille, and over the 2nd gambeson. i'm guessing they considered the ribs as a secondary form of armour...
And we're back with the good stuff!
Nice stuff! Can you make a video to demonstrate what difference ring size does? Smaller diameter rings typically are made out of thinner wires as far as I can tell, but you would have to break several rings to mortally injure the bearer. Some people say it is both lighter and better, but I have never seen a comparison.
Really love your work, people don't realize how much effort it is.
Thank you very much! And yes these films can take a while
Yay! A new vid of Todd shooting things! Great!
Thank you, Isaac!!!
Riveted maille is a pain to make.
I love your videos. The sheer enthusiasm you have for what you do, the simple way of explaining so everyone can understand, it's perfect.
Thank you - very kind
Hey Tod, would love to see Maile vs rondel, spear and other weapons that are generally considered “armour piercing.” Arms and armour did a video on it and would love to see if your results
Nice! You do the experiments I want to see!
I'd love to see a video of how the riveted maille is made!
How have i forgotten about this channel? Fascinating stuff!
I'd love to see someone try to move in that, the mail over the thick gambeson. Lots of people bring up mobility and dexterity being an issue but I've also seen people sprint and roll around in plate armor so it would be nice to see the comparison!
I never get bored of seeing you shooting stuff. please keep making these videos!!!
Thanks Todd for this series of videos and your comments
This is really interesting, and seeing how those arrows all stuck in, you can imagine that someone shot by a few of those would be severely hindered even if they took no damage whatsoever.
Hi Tod,
Really enjoyed your video, as always. I know nothing about armors in general, but some years ago I made a hand made poor quality maille and read a bit about them, so I wanted to share with you this idea I had about mail link spread: because of the way they get linked, links can easily spread or get tight in one direction (from top to bottom, if you look at 0:47) while they can't so easily get tight in the 90º direction (from left to right, at 0:47). When you wear mail, you don't want those spreadable links to spread due to gravity: you want them sideways, so they mount on each other over your body, making the mail as dense as it can. Having the spreadable direction falling from your shoulders would cause your mail to be like (1), with as much room between them as there can be, while having them sideways would made you be like (2). That makes possible that differente size people could wear the same mail (the smaller ones would be more protected due to more collapsed links sideways, while the bigger ones would have a lesser collapsed links, but could fit in it). If you made them like (1) Medium size, a small person would have a lot of non collapsable links around them making it uncomfortable and not gaining protection, while a big person wouldn't fit in it.
1 ununununununu 2 (((((((((((((
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When you shot gambeson before mail, mail was (1). When you shot mail before gambeson, mail was (2). I think this could be a reason for the first arrows to always go through one single link, while hitting several links almost stopped the second ones (apart from the gambeson-mail/mail-gambeson think, which would probably helps too). I do barely know anything about medieval stuff and possibly I am terribly wrong or maybe you considered this, but I just thought about this and wanted to share it.
Thank you very much for your effort and your amazing videos.
Great tests as always. I also wonder how much difference it makes for the mail to hang more losely and with a wider piece. Do we know how tight mail armour was supposed to be worn? If it hangs a bit below the chest area a ripple effect might absorb more of the energy.
Not only can loose maile absorb some more energy - as more of its own mass will get moved before the link failure, but in the process its more likely to twist the arrow off course so its loosing penetration power to the rotation, if it even still hits the man beneath. I'd like to see that test to find out how much.
But more important to this test I would like to see just how hard mail is to penetrate when its backed by something 'solid' - I wonder how much of the extra penetration of gambeson first has nothing to do with blunting the arrow but that the foam behind being so compressable all the arrows energy only interacts with the link it hit - with a 'solid' backing - or stitching the mail to the gambeson frequently - anything so the force on that hit link is spread more readily I expect there would be a significant reduction in penetration too. Would still expect it to be the worse orientation, but it would be informative to just how much the blunting effect is kicking in. Plus mail on top is the obvious winner - gambeson will be more comfortable on skin, and maile will blunt and snag penetrating weapons and take little to no harm from cutting weapons, where the other way round the gamebson will get mangled in every fight, and the mail is bound to be pulling your body hairs here and there or pinching most uncomfortably..
@@foldionepapyrus3441 A good air pocket between the gambeson and person will also help. In paintball we often pull our shirts/jerseys slightly out of our harness belts to hang loose. This sometimes results in a bounce rather than a break for tournament play. It's not a guarantee but it does help. Having to evacuate all that trapped air before penetration of the arrow head can begin is just another way of dissipating energy.
I would have loved a full coat and then yes it would dissipate the energies differently, but with a small sample this was the best way to mount it
@@tods_workshop Nothing wrong with your method as a simulation of certain areas of the body - around the shoulders and perhaps belt that helps carries the weight it will be more like this.
However, one method you could try to simulate a more loosely hung setup is screwing the mail into a small block of wood on top of the gambeson foam stack, to provide just a little air gap and with slack. So it is slightly spaced off the gamebson and not in tension from anything but its own weight. I'd then wire a few extra weights to the bottom links so its carrying a simulation of the mass of the rest of the mail. Still not a perfect test - but you are not going to get human volunteer...
@@tods_workshop Of course. Love your content, keep it up! and at the end of the day, staying unharmed on a battlefield sometimes just comes down to good old fashioned luck. a twig beats plate armour if it gets jammed into your eyesocket :D
One thing is that you were shooting square on - I would really like to see is there any difference if you get hit at an angle of 20/30 degrees as in a battle you won't be hit only square on (plus you would probably have shield in front)
I think what Todd showed in this test is that maille and gambeson can protect you from the arrow shot from longbow at certain distance. Of coz adding angles will increase the protection.
Believe DJ found scant difference in angle with mail. Or maybe that was AW
Each time I heard Tod exclaim "yes!" it took me to what an archer on the battlefield would/might have said...
Heartily agree we underestimate the ability / intelligence of historical peoples. I mean, many aqueducts are still standing, aren't they?
I've wanted to watch such a video since childhood. Thank you. Have my like.
Love that you connected modern armor to your test. Amazing experiment.
I could honestly watch you every day of the week! awesome channel!
Even against a sword, I'd still want the soft padding underneath the maille. Just because the sword's blade can't cut you, that doesn't mean it can't severely bruise you or even break bones.
Absolutely
An excellent video, as always! As far as i know, it is the first test on youtube using quality handmade mail against a weapon, and it clearly shows how excellent the mail and gambeson combo is at keeping you alive. Those arrows would have barely hurt the wearer. Thank you for providing us with information about historival arms and armour, without this channel, i wouldnt have any kniwledge about these things.
you are very wrong, the blow does not go away anywhere and it is quite possible that a person under a chain mail would have broken ribs
@@greatnoblelord I didnt mean to imply that the wearer wouldd be perfectly fine, im sorry if it came through that way. I just wanted to point out, that contrary to common belief, the armour prevents a killing blow from an arrow at 10 m.
There are some tests, though not many indeed.
Here's shooting crossbow at shirt of mail, also by Isak Krogh
th-cam.com/video/8c3W3ks7O9g/w-d-xo.html
I have watched 100% of Tod's videos that have been shown to me. Just such awesome stuff.
Quite fascinating how big of a difference a material flip can do for ya, and of course they back then knew of it as well!
Glad you brought up tank armor, the composite armor used in modern warfare vehicles is quite complicated but there's always a reason to which layer ends up where and which layer ends up thicker. Obviously to maximize defense qualities and weight/financial qualities. Like the armor back then, you don't want too much bold material because that gets heavy rather quickly and that can be quite expensive, so you would want to get the most out of what you got.
Thousands of years apart and the principles still remain, don't underestimate smart layering techniques and effective resourcefulness!
This was one of the lighter maille samples, and catching two links really stopped the arrows. So I want to see what a thicker/closer woven maille would do.
Great video the mail was actually better than I expected against the arrows...it makes such a big difference when you have well crafted mail. Gambeson on the inside is also a lot more comfortable so works out well.
Wow! What an eye-opener. It came as no surprise to me that arrows would not go through a steel breastplate, but I thought they'd go straight through maille and gambeson.
Hey Tod! Love video as ever! Maybe interesting: shoot the mail+gambeson from a 45 degree angle?
If I would be advancing in an arrow storm I would present my side (+shield) to minimise area and maximise defection. I would guess the links in the mail are much more sturdy when hit from the side.
Cheers!
I never would have expected that result! Simply amazing!
Glad it got you and me thinking
As you say composite. In addition Then you can minimise the really expensive/heavy plate over the most vital areas. Totally analogous to todays modern body armour and plate carriers.
You’re never going to want to minimize plate. If you can afford it, wear it.
In 15th century at least, mail generally became more expensive than munitions grade/average plate defenses.
Large furnaces, water powered hammers, specialization and organisation of work processes allowed to hammer out, shape, heat treat large metal sheets relatively quickly.
While it's no real way to speed up extremely laborious and tedious process of making thousands or rings, rivets and them putting them together. So it stayed very expensive.
Still was being worn a lot, by anyone who could afford it .
i just love these arrow tests. its how i found you, history and now i've got my own steel of which you made some. nice one captain
Love your scientific approach to these tests, obviously it isn't a large enough sample size but there is a lot to learn this way.
Having the gambeson behind the mail allows the mail to absorb more kinetic energy, which is why it offers more resistance to the arrowheads. When the gambeson is on the outside the point cuts through the cloth, barely slowing down before it strikes the mail.
Awesome test!! I would very much like to see needle-bodkins against the mail....also maybe a shot from a closer distance (160lbs simulator from a longer distance) just to cover more variables.
Thanks Tod, for doing these brilliant testing videos! Its always a pleasure to watch them!
Great vid as always. You do the thorough work, and your rigour is appreciated.
Thank you
Absolutely excellent video! It's clear experimental evidence confirming the hypothesis.
Thank you kindly!
What a phenomenal example of composite armor. Apparently, Chobham had been in that business for some centuries before having it named for them.
I read somewhere (forgot where) that boiled leather was added as a "breastplate" on the outside to further reduce arrow penetration on maille. That would very much fit with the composite armor approach.
Rawhide armor plating
There was also a thing called "double mail". We don't know exactly what it was, but it apparently worked even against hardened, armor-piercing arrows (like the ones the Mongols used). If it was one hauberk over another (with light padding between to prevent the two hauberks from catching onto each other), it might also fit with the whole "composite armor" thing. Or it was one of other possibilities, but either way, it was really good.
@@toothclaw6985 it could also be a single hauberk made of double rings. So each link is actually two rings parallel. Would be the same weight as your suggestion and easier to wear.
What i've learnt about armour is that it's not about nullifying arrows/blows it's about minimizing damage to the body. The more it can stop the better it is of course but just because it penetrates a little bit doesn't make it useless as some might think.
Wholly agree
R&D engineer with experience on ballistic mechanics for armour purposes:
your conclusion of it blunting the arrow and reducing penetration because of it is correct. in ceramics, the face hardness and subsequent ablation/deformation of the penetrator is far, FAR and away the most important part of the armor.
secondarily the backing material being able to capture and retain the penetrator to blunt the distribution of impact is the other major factor.
I love the lockdown longbow and the lighter weight bow at closer distance is a great replacement. The only difference I can think of is the angle the arrow would strike at if shot from a long distance. The speed would be very similar but would it have a less flat trajectory meaning it would not split single rings so cleanly, perhaps increasing the performance of the composite armour?
I am a professional scientist and designer of biotech products, with an interest in gaming and weapons. I appreciate the scientific approach that you take to these trials enormously. At this point, my wife and two sons like to tune in when they hear about one of your trials. Keep it up!
Thank, you that is very kind and even more appreciated as I am in that sense not remotely a scientist
@@tods_workshop Well, your approach is to control for the variables. Whether or not you have formal credentials as a scientist, you are performing these trials to get a sense of how these things work, and in that, you are working as a scientist.
Another legendary video. You're not going to be happy getting hit wearing the mail on the outside, but being angry is good, b/c you cant be angry if your dead.
arrow vs maille, greatest anime battle
It looks a tad frosty out Sir, should I warm your maille?'
'Good grief Smithers, what kind of sycophant are you?'
'What kind would you like me to be Sir?'
I really hate the popular notion that people from the past were unintelligent (i.e. chronological snobbery)
That's why I love studies of old technology as they give a bit of an insight into how much thought went into this sort of thing, so thank you, Tod.
Of course people of the past weren't stupid, surviving is a very good motivator for thorough observation.
Imagine that armor does what it's supposed to do. Great video!
I look forward to Pt 2, Pt3 and the Snyder Cut.
160 pound longbow at 75 meters. That is still a proper war bow at a proper distance. With shots from a bow that is less then 160 pounds i could see the shots not penetrating the armor at all. Even though we always hear mail isn't good against penetration, the composite armor really makes it work. Which is probably also why it was used for such a long period of time. It was effective at both stopping penetrating attacks and cuts up to a certain level. Great video as always Tod.
Good point to bring up modern body armor. Level IV armor is designed to stop 30 caliber steel core armor piercing. They typically use 2 types of material, a ceramic and different material. A lightweight but thick material is UHMWPE, which is atrocious at stopping any hard metal. The ceramic causes the bullet to start tumbling, which allows the UHMWPE to catch instead of stopping.
Interesting. For modern composite body armour, you'd put ceramic in the front and some sort of kevlar in the rear. The ceramic forces the projectile to dump a lot of its energy as it breaks apart, as well as deform the round causing it to mushroom, allowing the kevlar underneath the catch it. In many ways this is similar to what we saw with the maille.
Maaaan you have me waiting for that video for months!
I’m amazed at the level of protection afforded . It’s the difference between a nuisance cut and a lethal wound. Thanks.
Hi Tod, This is mostly just a bit of hearsay from armour forums and HEMA practice, but have you (or anyone here for that matter) considered the possibility of a three layer armour, consisting of gambeson/padded surcoat, over maille, over gambeson? If maille is ubiquitously worn over some form of padding, then perhaps this is the setup shown when maille is depicted under a padded garment in artwork (i.e. Morgan Bible folio 10r)? Also to respond to comments about loose fitting maille, although I cannot comment on its efficacy in reenactment, regarding its historicity medieval artwork consistently depicts maille as a tight fitting garment, shown in works such as the the Morgan Bible but also on contemporary stone effigies.
I think the biggest issue would the the weight and heat of said setup. Adding on so much padding would slow down the human form quite a bit in battle, plus the added effect of overheating the person's body that's being protected since they are wearing the equivalent of a full bed spread as a form of protection. The dehydration would be rough enough outside of combat, much less within it.
However, I do think this idea is of merit. If we consider the evolution of plate armor in this respect, we can look at how brigandine armor is employed. With a soft exterior for decoration and padding, as well as a plated interior to catch the kinetic energy of arrows, the wearer of said armor could add additional gambeson to said outfit underneath. The metal plates would still function the same as the mail as described in Tod's video, but you could circumvent the issues of padded weight and thermal overload of the body by not requiring as much padding for the same protective effect.
@@Magus_Union And we also see the same setup with a distinct padded garment, the Jupon, worn over plate and presumably a thin arming jack, during the 14th century.
According to the kings mirror a norwegian highborn in 13th century should have from the outside :
gambison vest, mail shirt, coat of plates, gambeson jacket. Í would love to see Tod shoot that combination.
Great test Tod!
this reminds me of bullet proof glass where the glass is used to fragment the bullet and the plastic layer is there to catch the small shards.
Tod, you are delightfully scientific. Thank you for that.
Thanks and I try to be at least objective and honest, which allows people to understand my scientific failings
Can't wait for part 2 and part 3 of these tests.
I'm always looking forward to your videos!
Excellent video! Love this stuff and looking forward to part 2!!!
i would be super interested in seeing the difference the tension/spreading of the maille makes. Often with a hauberk the maille hangs in a way where the rings overlap more than when it is pulled to be "taut". I wonder if this slightly greater overlap of rings would cause a significant difference
So if you shot a:
-freshly sharpened arrow
-arrow blunted by punching through mail
into a gambeson, what would the difference in penetration be like? Without the mail.
Agree. I suspect the chainmail is just acting mostly by spreading the force over a large area and the gambeson acts like a compression spring to further retard the mail. I know the impact of sharpening heads has been looked at previously but not sure the dulling of the cutting head is solely responsible for the improved penetration. In truth I suspect the combination works for a number of different reasons likely found by trial and painful error (or natural selection!!!).
have a look at some of Tod's previous videos, he covers this plate, and boiled leather armour too. :)
@@robinbiddlecombe9202 I found out how hard boiled leather is after leaving a leather belt on a pair of jeans that needed a seriously good wash. It was like a rock hard plastic! I ended up using a hammer to break it into pieces.
The difference is quite significant and can be found in this film here th-cam.com/video/oJ_gn2ni7WI/w-d-xo.html
Just the kind of night cap I needed
Great video. Love the practical archaeology
This really is an amazing and underrated channel. Great work, as always!
Thank you
I can't imagine anyone that thinks this channel is underrated!
Thanks Tod
Outstanding demonstration!
My roman maille requires a belt that relieves the shoulders from some of the weight. However, because freedom of movement is needed, the maille hangs a bit loosely from my shoulders, even with a subarmalis/gambeson on. The practical effect is that any incoming hits will first move the maille, which would dissipate some of the force. Then when the maille contacts the subarmalis, more force will be dissipated by compressing and moving the subarmalis - and after that will the splitting of the rings occur.
Roman maille, just like Medieval maille, could use variable ID rings. The smaller rings with the tighter fit were on the front, where the majority of hits were expected. Roman maille used rings used rings with ID 5-7 mm and wire with 1 - 1.5 mm. Such tight fit practically means an arrow will have to split at least two, probably more rings.
As for the rings popping, it's more often the riveted rings tearing at the rivet hole, because that section is less than half of the section of the solid wire.
TLDR: use tighter maille with some give to simulate more realistic battle conditions. When you attach the maille to the gambeson patch, don't extend it. Rather, bunch it a bit more closely and then attach it to the gambeson. Sure, the target would be a bit smaller, but the bunching would let the rings move a bit. In the four corners of the gambeson, where you attach it to the insulation, you could raise the gambeson off the surface by putting something like 4mm rubber or leather patches - this would allow some give, but not too much.
Wow.. I actually didn't know that...awesome Info.. mail on the outside
Love your videos. My only issue is that by firing close range, at what ever bow weight. The arrow or bolt will be flying in an almost flat projector making it easier to penetrate. At obtuse angles caused my arching projectiles in, the point will meet heavier resistance.
Keep up the great content!
Great stuff Tod as always. Always so interesting. As I was watching I had a thought - You had the maille pinned TIGHT. I wonder if it was a bit more draped instead of being tight would that take even more of the energy out of the arrow due to the fact that the arrows energy is being dissipated through the 'curtain' of maille, if you will, and so then giving the fabric a even more a chance... Just a thought...
I've been thinking about it as well, and looking at some experiments out there, it does seem that mail hanging somehow loosely performs way better.
th-cam.com/video/8c3W3ks7O9g/w-d-xo.html
It's definitely hard to come up with optimaly realistic conditions without actually shooting someone wearing mail.
On the other hand, it does seem like maille was being tailored to actually fit quite tight in period. It saves weight and bulk for sure.
@@lscibor Yeah it would make sense that it would be tighter than loose - Every piece of metal was precious back then. And I suppose there is no point being safe from every single arrow that might come at you if when the arrows stop and the swords are out you can't move under sheets and sheets of maille. Thanks for the link. I'll have a looks at that 👍👍
@@joshuadunn882 The people in tight mail would usually be wealthy knights, and for them the "every precious bit" wouldn't really apply all that much. In fact tailoring mail that well would most likely be way more expensive than few pounds of iron more.
All in all even tight mail would still move around a lot because it wouldn't be fixed to any point like with those pins Tod uses. That may be the catch.
I wonder if you couldn't buy cheapest, disposable butted/riveted mail, put a hole in it, and "sew" in the mail patch like those Tod has. So it has properties of actual hauberk without spending fortune on entire hauberk of hand made mail.
Please test all of the maille Isak sent you in future videos, maybe in part 2-5. Isak, being one of the best maille-maker in the current market, lovingly made each and every samples for you to test, it would be the best to appreciate his intentions
I agree that his work is beautiful, but I can't repeat the same test on all the pieces as it would get dull
@@tods_workshop C'mon Tod, we're the kind of people who watch your almost 1hr vids. Just like how you test each target with different arrowheads shapes, sharpness, and hardness; testing each armour to see how whether the 0.6mm makes any difference is something we would watch.
Thank you Tod
Great and informative video, Tod !! It explains so much.
Excellent info, thanks, Todd.
Awesome stuff, Tod! Thank you!!!!
An idea for future test? Doubling the mail shirts at vital place seemed to be common in France footmen. Pretty sure it more than double the protection (not linear), especially if the shirts are slightly too big and floating to better absorb the impact.
thank you for these videos. They're my way of winding down.
I've always thought it obvious to wear the gambeson under the mail. A sword can damage fabric more easily than it can damage iron. The mail stops a blade from cutting, and the gambeson absorbs/dissipates the blunt force. It follows that it should do the same for arrows. Very interesting to see it demonstrated though.
I think we have two very different actions going on here and they both happen to be better with the maille outside, but It was not necessarily so
Awesome stuff as always keep it up! Tod's Workshop all day!