Identify Your Fantasy and Get Rid of It
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2024
- Both narcissists and borderlines alternate between fantasy and reality - but their fantasies are very different. The borderline's is object (person)-centred, the narcissist's is process (narrative)-centred. Moreover: the fantasies cater to the narcissist's and borderline's deepest psychological needs.
Richard Grannon's TH-cam channel / richardgrannon
Find and Buy MOST of my BOOKS and eBOOKS in my Amazon Store: www.amazon.com...
“We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us.”
― Joseph Campbell
How exciting
Thanks
I came to watch this video because i just ran into my malignant narcissist ex, he pulled over in-front of me while i was walking my dog, i havent seen him in three years, He walked over to me and i just kept walking and said no a few times as he was trying to start conversation. I felt those intense trauma bong feelings resurface, terrifying to feel that again.
It’s good you’re able to stay no contact! Hugs!
I am so sorry that happened. You were very brave.
@@gillianfrances thankyou
@@Justjewels8436 time to train the dog to bark bark when you say no 😂😁😂😁 might come handy j.k.
@@TurbulantSynider yea for surly thats why i got him ;)
These two hours could only be defined as valuable
I could think of a couple other adjectives.
This helps you to understand how the stages of narcissism effect you and the narcissist - knowledge is crucial to comprehend 1) not your fault 2) nothing can be done for change, cycles will continue
Determine to have a healthy life and remove yourself before they do over and over
Please continue this conversation and expand in a similar way the timeline of a codependent.
I have a borderline mother and a narcissistic father, and my first relationship was with a sadistic narcissist. I have been on my healing journey long enough to have processed my feelings to have growing silvers of compassion and understanding for them. The more I learn about the internal experience of personality-disordered people, the more I see how the experience is an extreme form of Complex PTSD with dissociation, emotional dysregulation, unstable sense of self, harsh inner critic that devalues and discards everything including achievements, skills, traits, etc, unable to feel safe when connecting with other people, including self-alienation, and even reliving their own traumas and acting it out externally from inability to process and integrate it, which gets to a point where the only way to stay afloat and feel like a being is to outsource their regulation. What people with PDs feel and experience is very real to them, just like what other people feel and experience, and do the best they can with what they have. This one video explains so much about the introjects I have, and even explains why my parents and ex interact with me with the same button-pushing lines, or treating me like a 5 year old/a snapshot of the internal object, etc. It is so unfair for them to live such terrible internal lives, without getting the actual support and knowledge about understanding their own condition.
What is your bird-eye view philosophy/belief about personality-disordered people and the world, Professor Vaknin? I have listened to a significant number of your educational videos, and have found them spot-on for my experiences, and I strongly relate with your views/what I perceive they are.
Thank you for explaining to me what has puzzled me for 4 years. As you talked I could feel the dark veils of confusion drop away. I think I “get it” now. What a relief & what a lovely feeling of lightness & freedom. In part, I feel silly for getting “enlisted” into a stage play crafted by a narcissist and his borderline. As the saying goes: “They are a piece of work.” I was collateral damage, but it wasn’t my fault. I thought I had chosen love and, based on hope, I chose a long term relationship that now I can see was going nowhere.
Well … now I choose sanity & health & genuine affection. Thank you, Dr Sam. Te agradezco.
Your so right . Its about their stage show that's in their head. I don't exist as a separate person with any rights at all. Unless I stay completely focused on his internal stage show, I'm considered an attacker. I now see my partner as ill.
... as a German Biologist .- with my own Experience..
we are conditioned to be Hyper Tolerant, Friendly, assisting, crediting, Helping - we are EASY Prey for any Vampyre.
I promote intense Inner Strength training to have a tough firewall of No Tres Passing and RADAR to sense any Predator from far away -
and RUN fast.
...easy to avoid those encounters... when you KNOW WHO that person is...
The biggest tragedy is, - those Persons make fast careers in high positions and Government - and create their own rules and Laws.
The next 10 years will be TOUGH
Excellent Business for YOU!
Wow, this training is what we all need!
I had the best sleep in years after watching this video. A lot of my questions answered and I felt that I finally got the relief that I was expecting. While in watching it, I was a little concerned about 'if I know how they feel, or how they were made, I will forgive them and go back'. Thank you for putting it in the way that I not only understand how they were made or self-made, but also that there's no hope for them to change. More importantly, it was not me, it was never about me. Sad but relieved. Thank you again, gents.
I found a new life since I discovered your videos a year ago. Your videos helped me to understand reality and myself. Thank you giving us all these psychopathological tools to delve deep into the minds of narcissists and borderlines.
❤️
Do not be your partner's parent!!
It is amazingly clear - especially when you have lived the cycles with a Narcissist. So much hope , attached with pain
Such relief to understand and accept it in order to obtain peace and truly move on. I have never met anyone in my life with these qualities- now I am aware.
Grateful for a great childhood and knowing, choosing a better life which involves reality❤
In Australia we call it.." venturing out into reality ...separation
"walk about ".. or leaving the nest. .
By the way, there's a 1971 wonderful movie by Nicholas Roeg "Walkabout " , check it out. ❤
Theres a song by the red hot chile peppers band called walkabout! I also read a book called the dreaming once which was also a story involving the characters walkabout!
This has been positively challenging. Hard to believe all of these could be real. I like the title. Get rid of your fantasy.
Cheers Richard. Want to point out how much life you have given me by removing my CPTSR. I have had a very similar life to yourself and some of your early 2017 videos would show very small details that I thought was only me ( I felt disconnected/odd/not really wanting to fit into one group/adddictions/ depressive swings/ anxiety/ hyper vigilant/ fall into relatonships without question or “see” what was happening when going bad. Allow people to treat me badly and then want to please them when they did to try and cheer them up - people pleasing has been a big issue and not having boundaries. Thank you to your learnings and sharing this knowledge My life has completely opened up and feel fulfilled even when I have nothing in my life right now ( the ridding of old self allows you to let go of everything non essential ).
Thank you from my heart and hope to meet you one day.
Daniel Sacker - London
This video should be shown in schools! Imagine if we could save at least 1 out of 10 young people from entering such a relationship... Would make a huge difference.
I'm personally conflicted whether my ex was a covert narcissist or a covert borderline. She had a fantasy of me, and it's funny because she said those exact words of "it was good until it wasn't". But frankly, in the end it doesn't make a difference. I'm so glad to have finally moved on from the guilt and shame I felt after she discarded me, largely thanks to Mr. Vaknin.
Thank you very much for this content guys, you are saving people from incredible pain.
Never heard before such an indepth analysis of narcissism and borderline. Very helpful discussion. Thank you.
Absolutely phenomenal!!! If you’ve never watched any of his content, he just summed it ALL up in a little over two hours🙌❤️👏🏻
This has provided so many insights into how a relationship played out over 11 years. Thank you for taking time to talk about these subjects.
I totally under you! I know two people who feed each other like this. She/the ex is the BPD and he is the NPD. She is definitely sicker than him. They are both text book what you are describing
So you know two people?
I find Sam Vanknim very informative but quite condemning of people who wish to overcome these severe psychological difficulties. As he suggest that there is nothing that can be done. As a victim of narcissistic abuse I feel I have myself morphed into somewhat of a narcissistic person but need to know how to overcome this terrible affliction and be able to move forward in my life. Sam Is great at creating new labels but shy on solutions
I just watched this one last night. th-cam.com/video/D-yp-vsalDc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=FVYGMdKBGXQo0vh4
I've been listening to alot of content on narcissism, due to being married to a covert for 20 yrs and now divorced and out for 10 months now. Most content I find is starting to be a little narcissistic in itself. Keeping one focused on karma, how much better we are than the narcissist etc.. It kinda feeds narcissism. Therefore keeping one in emotional state about the narcissist . Way I see it ,after listening to Richard and his own personal story. Narcissist really do a number on our mental state. And it's a long road back to you
He addresses becoming a narc and overcoming it after separating from a narc in other discussions.
This interview is fantastic . I am only at minute 15 and already could cherry pick a lot of amazing informations I hadn’t before. Thank you. Also i loved the personal story from professor Vaknin and how narcissism can develop. It is so sad and heartbreaking to hear what his mother told him.
Excellent stuff. I understand and resonate with what you’ve discussed. To get to the point where I truly grasped these things was not an easy ride lol, and I had to spend some serious time and effort making deep examinations of a lot of things to get there.
The one nit I’d pick to present a difference in interpretation is that I do not believe it’s a life sentence. It actually is possible to overcome those patterns and learn new ones. It’s damned challenging and requires a serious commitment and serious honesty, and great resolve. And it’s no short process. But it can be done. To claim it as a black and white thing that’s absolute is a cue to look at what drives that black and white conclusion. Such absolutions are rare. I’ll go along with ‘typically’, or ‘usually’. Never is incorrect, because I’ve succeeded and I’ve seen others who have succeeded in teaching themselves how to claim ownership over choosing different patterns. That doesn’t mean never feeling a triggered moment, but it means cultivating the awareness to choose not to respond to that trigger from the old pattern, but replace it with a choice towards the chosen pattern. That requires a person to be dedicated to facing their own insecurities and discomforts with the bravery to learn how to overcome them, and they dissipate as that proficiency is developed. Most of those insecurities even evaporate, and what bits are left are quite manageable. I know that’s possible because I busted my behind to get there. It’s a crucible, but worthwhile.
And I’m not the only person who’s found ways to do that. If a person really wants it, it can be achieved. But I’ll 100% agree that to do it requires ditching these fantasies.
The defining limitation around whether or not a person can do this is linked to whether or not they can see the fantasy for what it is, and choose to step out (not a one and done thing, either). If a person can’t acknowledge the fantasy for what it is with the willingness to pursue their own exit, then it would be true as an impossibility.
So what you claimed about a lifelong pattern may be true, but only when that fantasy cannot be recognized. As best as I can determine, that’s a line of distinction. The reason I picked this nit is not to call you wrong, because I do see how that one factor of limitation would render it true WITHIN where that limitation exists. The thing is, a great many people who follow both of your work actually can recognize the fantasy, and those people do have an opportunity for that success. It’s important to make that distinction, that if your here because you want to understand, and you can recognize what this means, and see how it’s been inside you, that means you possess the capacity to overcome it. If that’s you reading this, I’m here to say YOU get to choose that you will claim that for yourself, and aren’t required to accept a life sentence from anyone on earth. YOU decide what you will pursue, and never let anyone suggest it’s impossible. If you can see and understand it, you can claim the power to do something different because you make consistent choices in that direction, by your own commitment. If that’s a thing you want, claim it and own it and do it. When you slip, do it again. And again. And don’t quit reaching for what you wish to become. That’s a thing you get to choose. No one else may dictate that.
That is so true!!
And I believe that the pain we have when we find ourselves in a toxic relationship actually gives us (a bit later) the energy required for the work, that has to be done: from anger to awakening.
Not sure if OP will see this, but just in case you do. You sound very sure of yourself, and I'm not going to discourage you nor anyone from being this determined to do the work to improve themselves. All power to you, truly. But I don't think Dr Vaknin is "dictating" anything. I think he's saying that some things get damaged beyond repair. Ie, destroyed. I also think - respectfully - it's wise to remain flexible in your thinking, especially on whether a capacity to recognise our operating system automatically equals us having the capacity to change it ("overcome").
I relate to a lot of what you're saying. I too had resistance at the notion of lifelong dynamics (borderline + push-pull at 1:14:49, but in numerous other talks too) Not one of us wants to hear that. Especially having been diagnosed late in life (39), grieved the losses, then like you busting my behind (and my wallet, lol!) on recovery. I've "lost" my diagnosis now, and made massive progress. It's going to be lifelong continuous work now, to have a crack at happiness and stability. But even though I don't officially have BPD anymore, I'm not OK. For a period, I was convinced this horror was behind me, I'd won over it. Now I'm seeing that some dynamics (you call them patterns) are from such a primal place, I'm not sure I do in fact have a choice in stopping them altogether. Perhaps manage them, question them, but they're there just the same. I'm talking about abandonment fear and engulfment fear. These are two wild screeching animals who still yap at my heels day after day. Awareness of something isn't the same as healing it, I'm finding. And that's not from a failure to try and working repeatedly to the bone to do so. There's a strong chance that some of these dynamics aren't our software, but our hardware.
Can someone please explain to me why in my past relationships I was an avoidant - I’m guessing that made me a narcissist? And in my current marriage I am a codependent and my husband is the avoidant and thus the narcissist. If we are born as one or the other how does our attachment style change depending on who it is that we are in a relationship with. I took an online quiz and it said that I am a fearful avoidant and my husband is a dismissive avoidant. Does this make us both narcissists other psychologists says two narcs will not marry each other. I really am confused. I don’t think I am BPD but I certainly have been in a cycle of being discarded devalued hoovered back in with my narc. I display more codependency and fearful avoidant trait. I’m wondering if anyone could help me understand me and my patterns please. Thank you
Neuro plasticity has been always interesting for me 💥
Thank you so much for offering us this valuable insight! This has brought the pieces of the crazy puzzle together… I had observed and concluded a lot over the 35 year relationship but this joins the dots!
Such a beacon of knowledge
Find this interview fascinating. Thank you Sam and Richard. There's some really interesting information in there not available anywhere else. Great work 👏
So informative. Makes so much sense about my ex. We separated for a year and she convinced me to come back to the fantasy and then fully discarded me. A few months later.
These things are so difficult! 😢
This was my all time favourite video. Mic drop everything Sam has been saying in 1 video explained. I wish you both come to South Africa 🇿🇦 x
Narcissists seek affirmation and validation. Such an interesting and informative discussion! Thank you
It is not a discussion. It is an interview.
So, narcisstic types need to be, seen ?
@@johnpoynton4193 All need to be seen. But there are different primary reasons.
Woooow guys ❤ This is actually so obvious when looking back on my covert husband.. Made me his mother etc.
Thank you for this talk. It was very helpful for me to understand what I have been experiencing. It’s helpful to understand it was never me in any sense, and I can’t fix it.
I'm pleased your work is now on this channel. Thank you 🙏
...yes, many of us understand this. Thank you.
❤ I am so grateful to find a normal healthy relationship after 4 years of a Narc experience… once you have the knowledge there is no excuse - you can not NOT know what you’re in for …
Forever grateful for all of this knowledge.
Grandiosity by itself is not narcissism. I love these guys. So brilliant. However, I remain in the “there is no healthy narcissism” camp.
Confidence and self worth is it’s own thing
@@julin8597 right. A toddler going out to explore doesn’t have to turn into anger. The parents can teach him/her to be safe without punishment.
That was so brilliantly put ❤
Please can you edit in some animations of narcissist vs borderline differences in introjects? Visual rep of these concepts would help with understanding
Thank you for this informative session
This is absolutely Great education. It makes sense so much ! Im going to study psychology.. Benn struggling to find my right way study and job wise. Guess a relationship with a Covert narcissist has now showed me exactly wich way to go. ❤
I learned a lot from this video. Long but valuable.
These videos are treasures thank u!
This man is really insightful and hilarious.
The best reunion ever,lacan meets Mickey rooke against narcicists,awesome,saludos from México.😘😘😘😘😘
Thank you so much! Great video. I can’t believe after a decade, I got back with my ex. I wish I wish.
To blame and to not accept responsibility are actions that yield the same result: no agency in one’s life.😢 Genius is figuring out which camp you belong to and taking steps to return to the state of health!
Although, it seems like narcissists are living at a steep disadvantage.
So helpful ,thanks for breaking it down for us
I appreciate all the information about the illnesses but what are the solutions to all this ?
No solution whatsoever. İf you are a normal person, run away from them.
Very insightful
Can anyone heal from this? This sounds so awful to put someone through but also to go through!
Great video
It's so clear now
Thank you so much
My husband was a MESS! HIS mother was a grandiose narcissist and a pysocapath ...... for Real!
She worked on all five of her sons. My husband was the worst. Sam described him to a T. Abandonment issues, fear, ect.
She absolutely has no compassion no empathy, she exploits and uses everybody. He developed a sexual addiction, contracted HPV, which caused cancer of the throat. He died 2 yrs ago, not a tear did she shed. The case I have ever witnessed in my life.
Wow. You guys could do one of this about histrionic and aspd, too.
thank you!
I am trying to fit this into my family dynamic. My oldest sister is fanatical religious and has never accepted me as part of the family unit. I think she is narcissistic like both my parents and I have borderline accepts I can relate to. Oh boy I am never going to have a relationship with her.
This is brilliant!
Simply brilliant.
Been there for so long with narcissist partners but where does it leave us codependents who are operating a very similar playbook?
@1:03:35 that was too funny, Sam
Thank you for this video. It is complicated, I think I need it to watch it again. Could you explain, if possible, the dynamics of codependents? Are they more like narcissists or borderlines? Or maybe they are somewhere in between?
Search the comorbidities playlist on my main channel.
25:47 why does this only very rarely happen, assuming this is an example of an abusive household?
oh yes i relate...
Dear Prof Vaknin, are self-states exactly activation of dyadic conflicts in Kernbergs theory?
No. Self-states do not involve an object in a dyad.
Amazing
Interesting...could u once explain living with a narcissistic person and when having an intimate conversation with them...u feel a black hole in them...empty soul....is that normal.
Was scary for me...I was infuriated with myself...I felt like am losing my self....
Question- When I was a little girl only 9, my dad threw my blankie away while I was at school. That blankie was my life. Could that have caused me to have lifelong mental issues for me? @samvaknin
The fact that an object was your life, is evidence of possible earlier trauma/issues.
What about narcissist who is obsessed with his mother and sister, does he ever devalue them?
woah, the man himself.
So there's no forgiveness for the young mother who had one disabled child and one healthy child?
Is object constancy also a fear of judgment by others? But not in a way that the critic challenges your „grandiosity „ but triggers more a fear of abandonment? Cause that seems easily be mistaken as narcissistic supply when in reality the intentions or better said fears are from a total different core?
Object inconstancy is at the core of separation insecurity and any hint of impending rejection or abandonment triggers it.
@@nothingnessnonarcissism is this common in borderline aswell as in narcissists?
Can someone be borderline and narcissistic?
Very interesting interview, but Richard, your persistent “active listening” sounds were VERY distracting. Perhaps someday they could be edited out partially or completely.
😂
Can Peer rejection and abuse of 5 years (teen age) make you a narcissistic? (Having a good childhood)
Yes. But not a narcissist (NPD).
What do we do with borderline children? Can we do anything to help them?
❤Thank you
Humans creation of God stems from all these principles I think.
Freud is an aspect of psychology.
@@XeLTH-cam Let me rephrase, my dear. Freud's work is an aspect of psychology just like behavioral research is an aspect of psychology. Humans have more than one drive...some inherent like sexual reproduction, others like repetitive neural patterns.
Humans are fluid, easily manipulated, trained and used....which leads to narcissistic abuse from others.
@@XeLTH-cam Right Said Fred? Was he too sexy for his psychology?
I wonder if a hypnotherapist could regress the narcissist to the 18-month old child and instruct the child to separate from the mom despite of the mom's behavior.
Unlike the normal developmental process, there is great underlying trauma. Most BPDs/NPDs have been traumatised by pervasive verbal, physical, and sometimes sexual abuse. It would definitely by great if you could safely bypass the concious mind, but in that hypothetical situation you'd still have to work on a crap ton of trauma and dismantle the false self structure, and maladaptive beliefs. This would be a tall order....
Ahhhhh, devalue reality. Become one with the false-self god!
Is the separation of the narcissist and their surrogate mother (via the intimate partner) ever successful? Has there been any documented cases of individuals getting close showing signs of healing? Or is the cycle tragically and toxically repeated again and again with future intimate (hapless) partners?
Repetition compulsion.
I am sure this will never reach anybody that can help me, but how do I get rid of the person that still has contact with my family indirectly and knows more about me Im sure that me. without any contact with me. he will call one person and knows everything he needs to continue his life and then I feel stuck that I can not even take a poop and he will probably know about it. am I going crazy, paranoid. do I have to be grey rock to everybody in my family.?
Maybe.
Yes
Yup
And the only reason I'm listening to any of this is due to the fact that you're being homeless and being very well educated and this is not of anything of your own volition but it doesn't mean stop learning to continue to educate yourself
1:52:33 😂
Except: tolerating them in your life IS your fault. Not sensing the red flags is your fault. Staying too long is your fault.
The thing is the one who toletares them in their lifes has gone throught the same things, but didn't end up narcissists or borderlines, but codependent. Codependency is also a pattern of behavior caused by trauma in the first childhood and is not the victim's fault. Instead of blaming, try helping someone.
@@LaryAk47 I know. I tolerated one for 20 years. And I know why (now). But it’s bc I tolerated so much that I allowed such an individual to stay in my life; others would have thrown them out after a week.
@@julieangle9721 you will forgive yourself. Bc you will start loving yourself more.
@@julieangle9721 One thing that helped me a lot after a brief relationship with a narc was realizing and owning that I was human and I, contrary to him, acted with love and in alligment my feelings when I entered, when I stayed because of hope of change, and when I finally had enough and left. And there is no shame in that. That is what every human should do, in fact.
Also, realizing the red flags and small ways I was not putting myself in the first place. Now I do that and, trust me, I can smell a narc from miiiles away.
Although we are not responsible for their behavior, what we do with the experience in the aftermath is. Wishing us all lots of self-love and reciprocal love
@@LaryAk47 the help is to be responsible for yourself, not wait for any authority to tell you what to do, look at your patterns and fantasies involved (ohhhh, someone likes me...) so that you will not experience similar situations over and over again
From frist source kids, girls dont play dolls in the kindergarden anymore.
01:08:20
1:28:44 😂🧮📊📈📉
7
I'm curious about trauma like sexual abuse that is often given as a cause for borderline? Can you develop BPD without internalizing abusive input from your mother?
BPD is partly genetically determined, but it does require the presence of ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences).
side note: I see now why game of Thrones was such a massive success (white walkers = narcissists) and a flop at once (inability to portray narcissistic contagion as introject)
He said we're ants compared to God and I found that insulting to ants..
God loves us and we are created in the Image of God (meaning we are more than animals and we do have conscience unlike them. But we act cheap when we act only on our desires and forget moral values)
What’s interesting is before psychology (and Freud) everting was science based. And now we are turning to neuro science. This tells me that psychology/ psychoanalysis is egotism at its finest.
As a borderline i can fall in love every other night,, just meeting a man and falling in love...very frustrating to a man who wants to commit to me,because I get alot of attention
I highly suggest not dating.
Grannon is a worst kind of narcissist than Grannon is!