That reminds me one night I was watching here in Argentina in cable tv a class Z horror movie where in subtitles mummy was translated as it was mommy... So every time they talk to the mummy they just talk as it was their mother...
Except cyborg... who was totally never a titan and never will be right guys? (Yes I'm still salty about this unwritten rule that cyborg cant be a titan anymore nearly 10 years later).
@@theboulder027 They're still having that?! Even after repeatedly showing that Cyborg has had a past with them (The Flash, Metal, Defiance etc all had flashbacks of the New Teen Titans era)
@@qwellen7521 Damn it’s really good & the characters have matured. If you’re able, I’d recommend purchasing it on iTunes (YJ Outsiders) or pick up the hard copy Blu-Ray.
Do I have to say anything at this point? Can just say: "Look how they constantly massacre my boy" or "Pain". I share the same last name as him, loved him for 20+ years, and he's my logo. So, you can say, I took it personally.
@@villain6100 😂😂😂... I'm mean sure. Being salty won't reduce the fact both companies do make quiet a lot of money and gud marvel comics like immortal Hulk, venom, thor, juggernaut series, the x men line of stories is actually pretty gud. I would say it's better u just read than picking sides.
@@chihiromononoke9381 Of all the mediums, superhero comics is probably the one where quality varies most widely. Titles are constantly being handed between different creators with different artists, titles being relaunched characters being changed, and killed, and brought back again etc. etc. as different writers all try to put their own unique stamp on the characters. The short answer is: People still buy superhero comics because some of them are *awesome.* Comics have brought us some of the best stories ever told. But you have to wade through a massive sea of not-so-great to get there...
@@galio7741 it came seemingly out of left field, and totally subverts everything that was done to build the character. Look at "Heroes in Crisis" for instance.
Once I read the solicit of Wally West being a villain, had no interest reading this Future State Flash comic. Like you said, Wally could pull a Nightwing, come up with a different name. Find his own city to look after, but nooooooooo, they need to bury Wally West cause Barry Allen has to be the definitive Flash.
Which is really annoying, because all the "modern" defining Flash tropes were created during Wally's era, which at the time had lasted about as long as Barry's. Barry's sacrifice was one of those good one in comics (iconic, impactful, meaningful)... so DC decided to ruin it and ruin Wally too at the process, two for the price of 1!!!
@@louisvictor3473 I remember an issue (memory says issue #79, the end of the "Return of Barry Allen" story back in the 90s) where they dedicated an editorial to why they wouldn't bring Barry back, about how it made his sacrifice mean something. Then they did it anyway...
Wally's a better Flash than Barry to me. Barry's one of the comic characters that should have stayed dead along with Kraven the Hunter, Aunt May when she died of old age in the Spider-Man Death in the Family comic. None of that "Norman Osborn kidnapped the real May and an actress that looked like her was the one who died" retcon shit. Barry sacrificing himself to save the universe from the Anti Monitor was a good way for his character to go out.
Yeah hearing this inspires me to not care for future state Flash. Wally can never be a villain in my eyes. Sure give him the name Synapse (workshop the name) or something and have him and his family operate in a new city. Does Bludhaven have vacancies?
Dick grayson: "just look at me they made me a spy and made me lose my memories and character in the last decade .... oh and they oversexualize my ass too"
DC don't like Wally West because he simply isn't' Barry Allen (at least that's what Dan Didio thought). It's sad that Wally is treated like this as he's one of the most successful legacy characters in comics and it's a shame that DC have no problem with erasing away his history like his children, making him evil or sidelining him in favor of Barry.
We've seen from Heroes in Crisis where he killed a bunch of heroes "that no one will probably care about" via a way his powers don't even work.....that yes, yes they do
Dc hates legacy characters like wally Roy Nightwing and Donna troy at one stage or another each have been depicted as evil or having an identity crisis or just killed off
Problem with those legacy characters is kinda simple to summarize: uncreative marketers and managers being greedy. Manchildren "muh childhuud herus" hack writers and editors don't help either. Explaining that is a bit longer though. Let's put a lid on Wally's case for a bit. Those legacy characters aren't new characters, so compared to completely new characters, they lack that free marketing "who is this all new character" hype effect. Their brands are also not as popular (not just in comics but also outside) as their predecessors/older characters, so they lack that free marketing hype factor too. Of course, both of these factors have a synergetic effect when combined (hence future state and all the derivative new characters wearing their connection to older characters with pride; it is not double the hype, it 2 squared times the hype at least). So missing on both factors is comparatively even worse than it seems at first. Comics as a medium is kinda stagnant in social relevance and sales now, so forget about just building their brands further until they become as easy to market as the older ones, because that is a long term risk/investment (not gonna fancy up any quarters anytime soon), and also risk taking some popularity from the more popular brands, and that is a fucking big no no. Fucking them over, on the other hand, that has plenty of free marketing hype potential (specially if you emphasize their connection to the older and more recognizable brand somehow - it ain't just "Nightwing went bad", it is "Batman's first Robin went bad!" Wally is a special case. With his comics success and with the JL cartoon participation, he had finally managed to be the popular Flash. Problem is that outside of show and comic fans, the Flash was at best popular as "the Flash". Who was behind the mask, ehh, not so much (and even in the JL cartoon, we mostly see him in uniform). But just then he got unlucky that Wanker Johns and Didio came along with their childhood favs, threw him under a buss for Barry, then made efforts to push the Barry's Flash to higher relevance in and beyond comics (down to the CW show). But now there is a bit of brand power behind Barry Allen's Flash thanks to that, so DC is in that situation where they know public book fans buy only buy a comic book by tens of thousand, while merchandise reaches millions of people, so guess which Flash brand they gonna pump over the others.
I am beginning to think DC Comics has a problem with teen heroes period. They love the kid sidekicks but they have no idea what to do any of them once that plays out. They give all the backstory to the adult hero leaving the sidekick with no reason to exist on their own. For example Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the links between their respective worlds and the human one. So what does that make Aqualad and Donna Troy? DC never bothered to figure that out. And if a teen character somehow becomes more interesting than his mentor it all gets violently undone. Arsenal was a single dad with addiction issues and a super villainess for a baby mama. While Green Arrow was an aging loudmouth and deadbeat dad. Next thing you know Arsenal's daughter had been murdered and Arsenal was literally doing bumfights armed with only a dead cat. In retrospect, we all should have seen Heroes in Crisis coming. I figure Wally will periodically come back just so DC can trash him some more.... they can't help themselves.
The most unfair thing to me that has happened with Wally is that DC never had these issues when Jay Garrick came back. He was just the Flash alongside Wally who was also the Flash....plus with Impulse, Jessie Quick, Xs and a host of others it’s not like the Flash Family does t have room fo him.
didio was just a scape goat for all the issues going on at dc most of the guys at the editorial level agreed with him but he was the one who got ousted
@@donb7519 That's because he brought in people who agreed with his Darker DC, then brought in Brian Michael "I hate canon" Bendis. DiDio did the same thing with Beast Machines, telling the writers to ignore not only the original Transformers cartoon but the Beast Wars series that came out just before it. That only came out recently so at the time it was Bob Skir (who was the showrunner who interacted with fans and tried to defend the ignorance while Marty Isenberg didn't say anything) who took flack from fans. There's a history of what DiDio did with DC.
@@ShadowWingTronix i mean lets be honest its not hard to stack the cards when so many comic pros agree with didios position on so many things like i said he's a scapegoat
@@donb7519 Back when the FireDiDio hashtag came out I wrote that it won't save DC because that's only part of the problem. However, he was in charge and did create the editorial mandates and a lot of the problems. Is he the only problem? I wish it were that easy. I won't miss him. I just need to see proof that whomever is taking over is going to get DC back on track, including undoing the damage done to Wally and his family before I can truly celebrate.
I am not a Flash fan. Not in the slightest but do feel bad for how they treat Wally. I mean didn't he just get redemption after the whole Heroes in Crisis incident?
Me: can you give Wally West a break? DC: No! In fact, we're gonna frame you for murder and you're going to jail for 30 years! Me: why are you doing this to me? Wally: 🎶 Because we're DC Comics. And life is a fucking nightmare!🎶
Flash Rebirth gave Wally a new secret identity as a police department carpool mechanic for the Keystone Police Department. But Geoff Johns should have taken a step further and gave him a new hero name. You know, the whole 'stepping out of the shadow of their mentor' kind of thing that was given to the rest of the original Teen Titans. Have Wally and his family move to New York, with him working for the NYPD, while being closer to his old pals in the Titans.
@Megan Todd See Dick run. Sorry, old reader joke from back in the day. It's not about whether he wanted to get out of Barry's shadow or not. After all, it was Barry who changed Wally's Kid Flash costume from a copy of his own costume to the classic Kid Flash yellow and red costume. Barry always wanted Wally to have his own identity and be his own person.
Future State: An idea where we lean heavily on legacy, letting old characters fade away while new character take up the mantle. Fans: Great! You already have a great legacy Flash in Wally, or you can have Wallace. Many to choose from! DC: Na bro.
I love your idea of Wally pulling a Nightwing and growing into his own character. He has his own Speed abilities and personality, he may as well become his own hero
I'd argue Barry should have pulled a Jay Garrick. When most of the Flash mythos was done under Wally and most of the modern feats, its unfair for DC to have just given that back to Barry on a silver platter with a "anything Wally can do, Barry can do." Modern adaptions really rub it in, with Barry getting Wally's personality often because they know he's boring (minus the CW where he's still boring and instead gets Wally's history, discoveries, and feats). This is a different situation from Bruce and Batman where Bruce had an iconic personality and had do so much for Batman and the Batfamily (though I still say Dick should have taken over and I don't like how everything STILL revolves around Bruce). At this point DC just uses every other character to prop up the ones they want to promote. The rebirth Titans team is more interesting than the justice league? Gotta break them up. Enjoying supersons? Too bad, gotta age Jon up because I don't want to have to deal with him when writing Clark.
They really hate legacy characters, really wish he who shall not be named didn't screw wally, Cassandra cain, Stephen brown, Betty kain, Connor Kent, Donna Troy, the JSA, and all other Teen titans members
Its hilarious how they erased the past (JSA) and the future (Titans/YJ/other sidekicks). Even though I liked the new52 Earth 2, they could've done something more with the JSA & Infinity Inc
Heroes in Crisis is one of those things where the story exists without much reason other than "Didio wanted it, and Geoff couldn't think of anything for Wally to do in Doomsday Clock (Much like most of the Build-up to Doomsday Clock, the years building it up were a bit of a waste)". I think it's also the reason Superman Reborn happened way too soon. Because otherwise Superman would be the same one Wally knew, and Superman could've legitimately helped Wally. But this was conveniently forgotten and the two never met until after Supermans histories got merged. Big missed opportunity for a good story there.
I personally love Wally west my flash because he was a great legacy character and he actually earned the mantle of the flash and him having a family with his wife Linda park and his kids iris west II and jai west was awesome and tons of fun and seeing him be treated badly is just sad and depressing.
This is a big reason that I don't read superhero comics anymore. At least not the one in continuity. It's less about the story and more about meta reading. I think it's a problem that stems from not being able to commit to an audience. They can either just focus on stories and give up continuity like Archie comics or embrace the soap opera nature and move forward. I shouldn't be thinking of Didio while reading a story about Wally. I have zero investment in there characters because they're just not real to me anymore.
It's a sad day when you start becoming in recognizing comic politics and the tendencies of certain writers. Tom King is depressive, Didio hates legacy characters, Bendis has awkward dialogue etc.
I hate how Wally has been treated, but can we take a second to pour one out for poor Jay Garrick? He was missing post-Flashpoint just like Wally, only Wally came back at the beginning of Rebirth while Jay only just came back at the end of Doomsday Clock and has now been killed off. It feels to me like DC are trying to actively distance themselves from the direction Geoff Johns was taking DC when he was in charge.
I feel that DC is having issues with legacy characters from previous generations as a whole. While Wally West was treated the worst, there was a similar issue with Tim Drake when Damien Wayne became popular. Impulse was not used so much due to Wallace West being Kid Flash. And with the aging of Jonathan Kent and the upcoming CW series on Yara Flor, I can imagine Conner Kent and Cassie Sandsmark being placed to the side (or maybe hang out with Judy Winslow from Family Matters.)
even Wallys best mate got pretty much a kick in his rear. But surprisingly enough not from Didio, but from Johns. Remember when they turned Kyle Rayner into a new Paralaax after they brought back Hal and how much people got angry at that?
I think it is the standard comic book writer "not my X" problem, an attitude that legacy characters by their very nature can be incompatible with. Which is made worse with DC's reliance on grimdark stories/events and heroes-become-villains plots. Which itself is made even worse by DC writers/editors being completely inept at creating such stories.
DC just introduces too many to take the same mantles on. So while the League members are pretty much safe, we get 2 superboys, 2 wondergirls, 4 robins etc. The biggest issue fall on the Titans era (they grew out of their original mantles but can;t take over their mentors' roles). Then the Young Justice era also suffered (funnily the non-legacy characters just faded out of existence) So characters like Lilith, Empress, Secret, Argent, old Damage, etc couldn't exist outside of the Titans/YJ. Rebirth brought both teams back but couldn't even maintain them before bloating them with characters so they couldn't get proper development
@@BluemoonLacrymosa Legacy characters wouldn't be a problem if DC wasn't so determined to pretend that their timelines make sense. And it really is only pretending. DC writers and editorial choose what they want to acknowledge and ignore based on their own desires and the stories they want to tell. (Heaven help the characters that writers/editorial willfully wreck.) There is nothing except their own desires stopping them from ignoring legacy issues, and they selectively do that for some characters already.
Considering there was a time that they made two Batmen work, Why does Wally need to change. Jay Garrett has also been called the Flash. Wally West can evolve into a new identity or just stay the Flash. Put him in Checkmate like they did with Roy Harper. Do we have to go the Cliche route?
yeah and also they could've made conner superman but never did. Instead they made superman blue and red. And whenever he starts getting close to becoming superman dc just resets him. Conner deserves the mantel of superman.
Why do they have to keep doing Wally like this? Like in Titans rebirth he was great and his interactions with everyone are so wholesome compared to Wallace in teen Titans, but Wally is the one who always becomes the villain
@Will N that would be smart but I don’t think the issue is that there is two as much as it is Wally is so fleshed out while they haven’t done much to establish why we should care about Wallace
This was probably the best summary of the Flash conundrum that I have ever seen... well done! If I had a footnote to add, it’s that even Post-Crisis Wally was not universally well received at first. Many readers that grew up on Barry’s comics were furious when that “punk kid” dared to try to replace Barry. Sadly, I am old enough to remember many of those comic shop conversations.
@Will N post-crisis acceptance was largely a generational thing. Younger fans generally had little problem with it but older fans tended to hate it. Age-wise, I was kind of in the middle of those groups, so I usually didn’t get into the heated debates... but I observed a few. There were apparently enough fans of the changes to make it a success though, because DC actually gained market share on Marvel for a while. And I might be mis-remembering, but I think there was a month or two around ‘86 where DC actually outsold Marvel for the first time in nearly 20 years. As to when things calmed down, it could be that things started to settle around BTAS because that’s just how long it took the older (angrier) fans to give up and fade away. In a way, the modern comic climate is very similar, with a lot of older fans getting angry at changes in the industry... the main difference being that there is not a large market of kid customers who are embracing the change.
@Will N I’m not sure that most people that were reading Crisis understood the goal of Crisis at the time. To be honest, I am not sure that I did either until we got pretty near the end of it. Most of the anger that I saw (that was not centered on the death of Barry and Supergirl) actually came after the dust settled and it became more obvious... and even more so after the publishing of the History of the DC Universe, which kind of sorted things out and set them in stone. I once saw a guy that was furious over the fact that the Legion of Super-Pets had basically been removed from DC’s reality due to the Crisis. I had never even heard of Beppo the Super-Monkey (much less the Legion of Super-Pets) until that day. While they didn’t mean anything to me, after the guy left, my LCS owner did stress to me that almost every character had their fans. That turned out to be an important lesson that I carried with me several years later when I opened a shop of my own. My own shop opened in ‘91. To the best of my recollection, the Crisis was never much of a topic in my shop. On rare occasions an older fan would bring it up but for the most part people were either “over it” or “only collecting Silver Age” by that point.
@Will N yeah, if there is one reoccurring theme in all of this, it’s that every attempt to “fix” continuity just ended up breaking some other part of it. That said, I have never been overly bothered by the continuity fixing events... in fact, I was mainly a Marvel reader when the original Crisis came out, and I was so impressed by it that I started reading more DCs (and that has remained consistent for 35 years). I am not a fan of the recent murderous incarnations of Wally though. That’s not really a continuity fix so much as it is just crapping on a character.
As a reader, I’m getting a little tired of being the wall DC thinks something might stick to. What’s next, does evil Wally team up with Parallax? Future State might end up being a good read, but stick it somewhere else in the Omniverse. I was really hoping that Wally would be to the Omnverse what Barry is to the Multiverse. Clearly there’s room enough for both. Each could take on a more cosmic role. As for who Wally killed, well they brought back most of the GL Corps, right? And even Power Girl’s history was straightened out....eventually.
I would read evil!Wally teams up with Parallax, just for the WTF. (& Wally is my fav Flash, & Hal is my fav GL) What happened to Parallax? I know he showed up with married Clark & ran away, then briefly showed up in the long-hairedHal GL run to have a talk about Coast City being rebuilt, but is he still lurking out there?
It looks to me like every comics writer who read Marvelman before becoming a professional wants to write their version of the "Kid sidekick goes bad and murders a bunch of people" storyline -- and never with the poetry or depth of Alan Moore's prose to back it up.
I remember wally west as the flash from the justice league the animated series THE FLASH, I didn’t even know who barry was then, as wally was the first flash i knew
First things first, I'm living for your Prince Robot IV shirt, Sasha! What does the speech balloon say? As for the subject at hand, I am very much a "Wally is my Flash"-type. It does get to feel at times like DC has a mad-on for him, or maybe just contempt for his fans! They gave us the super emotional Barry/Wally embrace in Rebirth and made Wally's connection to the heroes of the DCU the literal lynchpin of restoring what had been lost, and then they proceeded to dump all over him anew! We can't blame DiDio anymore - unless maybe this was all worked out back when they were planning Future State as "5G" - but he in particular famous was always gunning for killing Dick Grayson. And then later of course they did manage to shoot him in the head and...uh I won't open the can of Rics in the comments on this video. But the point is, DC, under DiDio and otherwise, seems to have a very weird relationship to the Titans generation of heroes. Wally, Dick, Donna, Roy...Wally seems to be the current punching bag, but how many times have we seen each of them murdered, maimed, or otherwise seriously traumatized on panel! Even often in other media, such as the Young Justice cartoon or the live action Titans show. Their version of the Titans, beloved as one of the all-time classic teams and one of the all-time classic superhero comics, full-stop, was even retconned out of existence in the New 52! More often than not, it is they who are the expendable characters to get a reaction out of their mentors like Barry, Bruce, Diana, and Ollie. The problem is so many of us have watched them grow into strong characters in their own right, and many of us grew up with them even moreso than their predecessors OR successors, and it really stings to see them disproportionately used as collateral damage. Now, Future State may simply be a temporary shift before we get back to a more recognizable status quo, but regardless, I think the point many of us would make would be that such actions are out of character for Wally regardless of circumstance. In any case, after all he has already been put through in recent memory, whether or not any individual feels the need for #justiceforwally, isn't it at least reasonable to ask, how about we #givewallyabreak?
My Wally was the Will Messner-Loebs Wally. Despite what came later, I just say there have been few Barry stories in the last 11 years that actually needed Barry as the Flash.
DC just doesn't know what to do with Wally and it's obvious. Which is a shame the best Flash stories of all time are from his run outside of pre crisis and the silver age, especially Waid's run. Even if he's a nut these days. He's a damn good writer and Born to Run is one of the best comic stories I've ever read. Kyle Rayner is in a similar boat but he was never turned into a murderer at least. But I still love Barry, especially with Williamson's run in rebirth. Love the videos Sasha!
Why does dc comics keep ruining Wally west my flash for garbage because frankly Wally west is my flash who I grew up with and seeing him keep getting ruined is just sad and depressing.
As a complete outsider to the flash family,I am generally confused on why wally can't just be a flash or another hero. It just seems like Dan didto hated the legacy people and now everyone is confused on how to fix stuff when there is a simple solution they have done before.
I hope this truly is the last remnant of Didio's influence the way many writers said when the news about FS dropped. He's destroyed the "first" legacy characters enough. (Saying "first" here because Didio had an obvious problem with the OG Titans, but apparently not with the OG Young Justice generation.) I hope new and better adventures await Wally fans this year.
@Will N I agree that he saw the benefit in only using the Robin name once, but he wasn't against the Red Robin identity. Tim used the moniker up until 2017 (or even 18?). Drake was Bendis' idea. But, yeah, it was a dumb idea.
And the sad irony is that many, if not most of the "original" versions they're being thrown aside for are legacy versions of golden age characters. Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Dan Garrett all were replaced and that's fine, but replace Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ted Kord? That's too far for Didio's ilk.
Thanks Sasha, that was great I love Flash and I guess the only knowledge that I really have from it is the the CW tv show. It gives me a different insight to how things look. I feel that this Wally doesn't catch a break and that the writers just got tired and didn't know what to do with him. Maybe you should do a deep dive on Iris West next? thank you and have a great day!
15:41-16:09 Saying "it all happened, it all counts" doesn't help when there's been so much disappointment since 2011. You want to tell me that the stories I read before Flashpoint "still count", where characters had actual development and weren't weak imitations for someone's amateur poetry? Great. Then why can't I read the continuation of that? I don't care about some hack's "reinvented" version, because it was bad. Continuing with the terrible version and saying the better version is "out there somewhere" doesn't make me want to buy the comics with the bad version. As Fulton Sheen said, "It's little consolation for 99 donkeys that the 100th will get a carrot." Technically, I knew Barry Allen first because of the 90's TV show, but I was pretty young when that aired. Wally is a character I liked when I really got into collecting in the 90's, but I never followed him outside the JLA comics. He was probably my favorite character in the Justice League cartoon (even thought I'm a Bat-fan). Despite my lack of committal, it's easy to sympathize with his fans with how he's been treated, when DC has seemed so keen on screwing up *so many* characters for, seemingly, no reason, or really, really dumb reasons. Even some who think they're "helping" are prone to this.
As a fan of all Flash storylines, I was bought up on Barry Allen as the flash when crisis happened i was torn about their being someone to replace my guy. Wally gets the raw end of the shaft all the time. I do think they are trying to divide the community with Barry v Wally almost feels like they wanna push Wally into the Reverse Flash role without ever calling him that!!
It occurs to me that Walley West is my Flash, as I really started reading DC books after Crisis. But your shirt though! Is that a FLCL shirt? AWESOME!!!
If I was in dc I would run Wally and Barry like Grayson and Bruce. Barry would be the protector or Flash of Central City, and Wally would be the Flash of Keystone City.
I am waiting for post Future State Flash book because the first arc is already titled The Redemption of Wally West. I believe this is a way for new readers that may have not read Heroes in Crisis to see Wally hit a low before the new arc with his redemption.
In retro, I think when Barry came back, he should have been a teenager. Have the roles reversed, with Wally as the mentor. Give Barry his own book where he has to start over in a new city, relearning his powers again. Maybe at some point he ages up and continues in the new city, or Wally moves on...maybe to the Batman Beyond timeline..I mean why waste the title of Flash Forward, when it could have meant something. Maybe have Wally be Reverse Flash's kid from that timeline (RF likes macking in different timelines?), he sent back as an endgame against Flash. It fails, Wally finds out he was adopted, his powers were given to him by Thawne, and he is from the future..Batman being Batman, steps out from the shadows and says, "I knew it all along!" "Now go...and say hi to Terry for me (Batman Beyond is canon now and Terry has been to the past).
I had a similar thought, but with Barry not becoming a teenager. The entire concept of "The Speed Force" came about during Wally's run as The Flash (pun not intended) and it really would have worked to have Wally in a mentor role to Barry just trying to get him up to speed (pun intended) on how their powers work.
I remember when wally west really was a kid flash, then he was matured for the teen Titans, then he became the flash, but a dark version of the flash... of course I also remember when my comic loving friends and I would talk about the difference twixt DC & Marvel, with Marvel being the dark gritty comics. Believe it or not. (I started reading comics in the 60's.) As always, thank you so very much for the video.
Wally is my Flash due to him being the Flash when I was growing up. I remember the confusion when the 90s show was on and they used Barry. I read Barry's stories and always felt like they were just the same thing over and over again. Though different eras of writers so it's not the fictional characters fault for that haha. I enjoyed Wally's struggles with taking the mantle and how he made it his own.
The Nightwing comparison to Wally is thee best point I've seen about this topic. Dick couldn't he Batman so he chose to be something else. Wally can't be The Flash so let him be something else? Red Bolt, Red Lightning, Wally Quick, something. I think the thing that Wally fans object to the most is him being a villain. I would read a book of Wally being the new Sensei of Speed to young Speedsters, or Wally teaching his own kids how to be heroes. Family Man Wally could be an approachable FF- esq where Wally goes on adventures with his kids to make up for the time he's lost with them. I've rambled enough. Great video.
If I was put in charge of DC, I would make Jay Garrick the main flash, just for the chaos of it(he is my favorite flash, but I think the fall out would be more fun).
I thinks they never wanted him back to life and they said ok but your not going to like it. Wally is no official to evil to join the rouges. That should have been a seen have cold or a rouge say your scum to him in jail. Rouges always bust each other out of jail or a jam. Wally framed buster gold for a crime.
@@fredcampbell4066 Rouges don't kill women and children the rouges should hunt wally down as a comic. Also in final crisis even when mind controlled by libra the villains were held responsible for what they did but wally isn't responsible its zooms fault.
I like Barry. I like Wally. I also liked Jay, and Max Mercury, and Impulse, and Wallace, and their dead...because of Wally, but it’s not his fault, or maybe it is 🤷🏾♂️ I don’t want Flash War + Heroes in Crisis, and I’m hoping the story doesn’t end with Wally not having redemption in some way
Honestly the fact they did this so soon after they were fixing Wally is what hurts ok things look to be back on track but nope Honestly I can take solace in two things that one Wally is possessed by a demon so he’s not doing this willingly the other is that given that nature of comics this is definitely not mainline Wallys future so the og is safe Still Future State Flash is definitely the weakest of all the future state stories since it seems it’s trying to be dark and edgy for the sake of it and that was obvious to me when Bart was killed so unceremoniously at least Jays death had a purpose In order I’m going with Wonder Woman Batman Superman Harley Quinn Flash
I didn't grow up reading Wally, or the Flash at all. But I got into it with the new 52 and then backtracked hard and read any Flash I could and can't help but adore Wally. When he came back he worked extremely well just as a second Flash. Why can't we just have two Flash books in tandem, sometimes crossing over, it works well with Peter Parkers and Miles Morales' books.
I really wish they’d either do what they did with nightwing and red hood for Wally, or that they’d leave him alone and let him be because the last thing we saw was everything about Wallys life being restored to how it was pre 52, so what’s the point of making him a villain now or trying to mess with fans more
I had the same reaction with Penance (Robbie Baldwin) when he was a part of the Government run Thunderbolts. God, I hate what they did to him, though his character is back to being Speedball now, so... there is that.
They did him dirty. And it seemed like every step of the way they dug deeper. Like if Heroes in Crisis had to happen, why retcon it instead of going whole hog and putting Wally in the suicide squad in a new identity? Or like the hostess said, introduce a new kid flash instead of rebooting him into a new character.... jeez
Poor Wally! I grew up on Barry Allen Flash... but grew to love Wally West Flash... and was horrified by what they did to the character. It didn’t fit his character at all. DC ... fix this ... now! In the comic book in my head... Wally is still a hero... and Batman fixed it😉 ( he had a plan... he always had a plan😉) Great video Sasha!
I hate that they treat Wally this way. He is my Flash, I watch DCAU and Young Justice. Justice for Wally, they could just rename him red lightning or something and let him be a hero.
@@galio7741 A villainous version of a hero can work if they're done well. This new version of Wally isn't and is only being portrayed as evil to make Barry look better.
Wallace feels like he tells the story of a lot of legacy characters who end up being a different race. He has a lot of potential and would be liked almost universally if their implementation into the stories would of actually been good.
I am not racist, but Wallace West is a terrible character. He is cheap knockoff of Wally West and his existence is baffling. Wallace West is not the real Wally West, he is an imposter. I hate Wallace West and I’m happy that the real Wally West killed that fake bastard.
What irks me more is this seems specifically targeting Wally over other legacies. HIC is fresh in our minds. Why not use another speedster? The non-Flash speedsters were trapped in the Speed Force this whole time. They could easily have been possessed and used (especially since Max's meditation skill makes him so in tune and Johnny Quick was lost in the force)
I first started collecting Flash shortly after Crisis on Infinite Earths. I didn't know who Barry was except through Wally's perspective who always tried to live up to his legacy. A legacy which now ran from Jay Garrick to him though Barry. They invented the Legacy Character right there. You watch him grow from an insecure young man, to being a responsible mentor, husband and father. It was a really good arc. There was even a whole thing in the early aughts where he was looking for someone to take over the mantle after him, after he got the revelation he was supposed to die soon. He actually mentored a whole bunch of people. That's what pisses me off about the whole thing. Barry's death established that the mantle could be passed on and that it would work. I remember the letters pages back in the day always full of letters complaining that they wanted Barry back and the editors telling the readers to give Wally a chance. And then more than 20 years later, after having won that battle, they say fuck it. Bring back the old guy no one knew anymore. When what would have hit better was to give Wally the same sort of send off Barry got to have. An epic farewell and a passing of the torch. So pissed off.
Man, DC is such a convoluted mess when it comes to continuity and tracking down character origins to "where are they now?" Thank you CC for doing all this hard research!
Why don't they move Wally to a new city in the country and he be The Flash of that city so you have both Flashes doing their thing in their own location?
It's amazing to me that, due to their bungling, DC has more or less repeated what happened to Hal Jordan in the 90s with Wally West... 1) Both went nuts and killed people. 2) Both regretted it and gained God like power. 3) Both had their falls from grace Retconned to say that they were actually being influenced by an outside force. If nothing else this builds a stronger case for the Hal/Barry shippers who write fanfiction about Wally being their adopted son.
Funny thing is that the retcon only helps explain why wally hid and framed people, not why wally killed all those people, so the blood is still on his hands
@@megamonmon I would argue accidental manslaughter, since Wally only killed Roy and the others because he lost control of his powers. I feel like DC is trying to have their cake and eat too, Wally still feels guilty and reasonable for what happened at Sanctuary but by saying Thawne MADE him frame Booster and Harley, Wally's technically not a murderer as the decision to possibility turn himself in from the start was taken away. And considering that we saw Thawne influence him and Barry in Flash War before HiC, whose to say that Thawne didn't also cause the chain of events leading to the deaths?
Wally was the Flash I grew up with, one of the rare examples of lasting and impactful character progression in comics. His sabotage infuriated me. Good on you for making this video!
Jay should still have speed even without the Speed Force as it is his metahuman power. Not as much soeed obviously but he's still got like, Quicksilver speed.
I will never forgive Tom King and DC for what they did to Wally in Crisis in Crisis. His powers don't even work that way and what he did was totally out of character. They need to retcon that.
@Will N All williamson's retcon does it explain why wally framed everyone, not why or how he killed them. Also as far as Im aware they never told king to make wally the murderer, just that he had to use booster, harley and wally as prominent characters, every other writing decision made falls on his shoulders unless there is more unrevealed editorial meddling.
@Will N They always use Zoom, but I was thinking Abra Kadabra would have been perfect. He remembered his fights against Wally when he was the only Flash (way back in the 1990s) and he had the 64th century tech to mess with his powers and brainwash him into doing what he did. Still, at the end of the day, Wally wasn't handled well at all and it showed.
Anyone else think that the flash would be great in the bedroom? That vibrating speed? I mean, he is the fastest man alive so I guess it would be over quick... Poor Iris...
It's amazing how even-handed yet comprehensive Sasha's analysis and recounting is, giving all sides to an argument without resorting to branding some people as bigots or anal-fixated nerds. This is amazing considering how partisan and bitter comic commentary on social media has become.
I kind of feel like they could of done it like a green lantern corps sort of deal, every flash just had his own little part of the world to cover and that be the end of it, it's kind of a let down they decided to just go down the villain road with Wally instead of doing something I guess more original? But it's good he's back just ya wish he would of got a better comeback than what he got and left in limbo
That Hal Jordan panel is even funnier in Argentina, they translated "will" as a name. So it says "I don't even know who will is" in Spanish
That brings me much joy I mean do any of us know who Will is lol!
Naaaah, jodeme que hicieron eso aca, jajaja. No podes!
That reminds me one night I was watching here in Argentina in cable tv a class Z horror movie where in subtitles mummy was translated as it was mommy... So every time they talk to the mummy they just talk as it was their mother...
@@CasuallyComics My Captain keeps telling me to fire at Will, but I’ve never seen him. Will’s a slippery one, quite wily.
That's amazing 😄
I swear Ginger Wally is just a punching bag for writers.
He is like the Spiderman marriage of the DC universe 👉👉
Everyone associated with the Teen Titans has a target on their back. Don't forget Dan Didio tried to kill off Nightwing.
Thank god he failed
Except cyborg... who was totally never a titan and never will be right guys? (Yes I'm still salty about this unwritten rule that cyborg cant be a titan anymore nearly 10 years later).
Nightwing's a$$ would have been a goner, if it weren't for DAT A$$!!
@@theboulder027 They're still having that?! Even after repeatedly showing that Cyborg has had a past with them (The Flash, Metal, Defiance etc all had flashbacks of the New Teen Titans era)
Dan didao was the name of a demon in Harley's little black book.
I’m one of those for whom the animated Justice League series brought Wally West to the forefront. Loved that show!
Though my personal favourite take will always be Young Justice. He had an amazing arc across the series.
@@qwellen7521 Young Justice is a good series too. Looking forward to the next season
@@Sunstar808 unfortunately don’t live in the states, so I never got to see S3 :(
@@qwellen7521 Damn it’s really good & the characters have matured. If you’re able, I’d recommend purchasing it on iTunes (YJ Outsiders) or pick up the hard copy Blu-Ray.
Yeah for a long time I thought he was they only flash cause I saw that show when I was a kid 😂
Do I have to say anything at this point? Can just say: "Look how they constantly massacre my boy" or "Pain".
I share the same last name as him, loved him for 20+ years, and he's my logo. So, you can say, I took it personally.
I don't know why people still buy comics from these terrible companies or go see their terrible movies.
@@chihiromononoke9381 I don't know why did dc write far more better comics than marvel will ever do..
@@villain6100 😂😂😂... I'm mean sure. Being salty won't reduce the fact both companies do make quiet a lot of money and gud marvel comics like immortal Hulk, venom, thor, juggernaut series, the x men line of stories is actually pretty gud.
I would say it's better u just read than picking sides.
I'm sure Kanye feel the same way
@@chihiromononoke9381 Of all the mediums, superhero comics is probably the one where quality varies most widely. Titles are constantly being handed between different creators with different artists, titles being relaunched characters being changed, and killed, and brought back again etc. etc. as different writers all try to put their own unique stamp on the characters. The short answer is: People still buy superhero comics because some of them are *awesome.* Comics have brought us some of the best stories ever told. But you have to wade through a massive sea of not-so-great to get there...
DC: Oh you guys want more Wally West?
Fans: Yes please!
DC: Oh okay we'll now we're making him a villian that kills people with no remorse.
Fans: :(
This is awesome, why people are mad about it?
@@galio7741 it came seemingly out of left field, and totally subverts everything that was done to build the character.
Look at "Heroes in Crisis" for instance.
@@bazzfromthebackground3696 I liked Heroes in Crisis.
@@galio7741 well, then there's nothing to talk about.
@@galio7741 You like the fact they turn a fan favorite hero into a villain?
Once I read the solicit of Wally West being a villain, had no interest reading this Future State Flash comic.
Like you said, Wally could pull a Nightwing, come up with a different name. Find his own city to look after, but nooooooooo, they need to bury Wally West cause Barry Allen has to be the definitive Flash.
Which is really annoying, because all the "modern" defining Flash tropes were created during Wally's era, which at the time had lasted about as long as Barry's. Barry's sacrifice was one of those good one in comics (iconic, impactful, meaningful)... so DC decided to ruin it and ruin Wally too at the process, two for the price of 1!!!
@@louisvictor3473 I remember an issue (memory says issue #79, the end of the "Return of Barry Allen" story back in the 90s) where they dedicated an editorial to why they wouldn't bring Barry back, about how it made his sacrifice mean something. Then they did it anyway...
In the end, they didn't even do that with Nightwing. Remember, they tried to kill him too.
Wally's a better Flash than Barry to me. Barry's one of the comic characters that should have stayed dead along with Kraven the Hunter, Aunt May when she died of old age in the Spider-Man Death in the Family comic. None of that "Norman Osborn kidnapped the real May and an actress that looked like her was the one who died" retcon shit. Barry sacrificing himself to save the universe from the Anti Monitor was a good way for his character to go out.
Yeah hearing this inspires me to not care for future state Flash. Wally can never be a villain in my eyes. Sure give him the name Synapse (workshop the name) or something and have him and his family operate in a new city. Does Bludhaven have vacancies?
"DC hates Wally West!"
Cassandra Cain fans "Welcome to the club."
Cass has been doing well recently
Stephanie Brown fans: Tell me about it!
Tim drake fans : 😶
Dick Grayson fans: that's ruff buddy
Dick grayson: "just look at me they made me a spy and made me lose my memories and character in the last decade .... oh and they oversexualize my ass too"
DC don't like Wally West because he simply isn't' Barry Allen (at least that's what Dan Didio thought). It's sad that Wally is treated like this as he's one of the most successful legacy characters in comics and it's a shame that DC have no problem with erasing away his history like his children, making him evil or sidelining him in favor of Barry.
We've seen from Heroes in Crisis where he killed a bunch of heroes "that no one will probably care about" via a way his powers don't even work.....that yes, yes they do
What that mins
They retconned that to be something reverse flash did
@@kevincrediblee6745 Almost as if they regretted that story line as soon as it was published.
Dc hates legacy characters like wally Roy Nightwing and Donna troy at one stage or another each have been depicted as evil or having an identity crisis or just killed off
Problem with those legacy characters is kinda simple to summarize: uncreative marketers and managers being greedy. Manchildren "muh childhuud herus" hack writers and editors don't help either. Explaining that is a bit longer though.
Let's put a lid on Wally's case for a bit. Those legacy characters aren't new characters, so compared to completely new characters, they lack that free marketing "who is this all new character" hype effect. Their brands are also not as popular (not just in comics but also outside) as their predecessors/older characters, so they lack that free marketing hype factor too. Of course, both of these factors have a synergetic effect when combined (hence future state and all the derivative new characters wearing their connection to older characters with pride; it is not double the hype, it 2 squared times the hype at least). So missing on both factors is comparatively even worse than it seems at first. Comics as a medium is kinda stagnant in social relevance and sales now, so forget about just building their brands further until they become as easy to market as the older ones, because that is a long term risk/investment (not gonna fancy up any quarters anytime soon), and also risk taking some popularity from the more popular brands, and that is a fucking big no no. Fucking them over, on the other hand, that has plenty of free marketing hype potential (specially if you emphasize their connection to the older and more recognizable brand somehow - it ain't just "Nightwing went bad", it is "Batman's first Robin went bad!"
Wally is a special case. With his comics success and with the JL cartoon participation, he had finally managed to be the popular Flash. Problem is that outside of show and comic fans, the Flash was at best popular as "the Flash". Who was behind the mask, ehh, not so much (and even in the JL cartoon, we mostly see him in uniform). But just then he got unlucky that Wanker Johns and Didio came along with their childhood favs, threw him under a buss for Barry, then made efforts to push the Barry's Flash to higher relevance in and beyond comics (down to the CW show). But now there is a bit of brand power behind Barry Allen's Flash thanks to that, so DC is in that situation where they know public book fans buy only buy a comic book by tens of thousand, while merchandise reaches millions of people, so guess which Flash brand they gonna pump over the others.
I am beginning to think DC Comics has a problem with teen heroes period. They love the kid sidekicks but they have no idea what to do any of them once that plays out. They give all the backstory to the adult hero leaving the sidekick with no reason to exist on their own. For example Wonder Woman and Aquaman are the links between their respective worlds and the human one. So what does that make Aqualad and Donna Troy? DC never bothered to figure that out.
And if a teen character somehow becomes more interesting than his mentor it all gets violently undone. Arsenal was a single dad with addiction issues and a super villainess for a baby mama. While Green Arrow was an aging loudmouth and deadbeat dad. Next thing you know Arsenal's daughter had been murdered and Arsenal was literally doing bumfights armed with only a dead cat.
In retrospect, we all should have seen Heroes in Crisis coming.
I figure Wally will periodically come back just so DC can trash him some more.... they can't help themselves.
@@ViccVegaa023
At least Wally had a decent amount of respect in the Williamson run.
Although Donna Troy had a pretty BADASS look as part of TBWL's Secret Six
To be fair, thought that describes practically every comics character
The most unfair thing to me that has happened with Wally is that DC never had these issues when Jay Garrick came back. He was just the Flash alongside Wally who was also the Flash....plus with Impulse, Jessie Quick, Xs and a host of others it’s not like the Flash Family does t have room fo him.
Yes but see when Geoff Johns was a kid Barry Allen was already the flash
Wally has been inflicted with the DiDio disease, even when he's not on the damn company his disdain for him can still be felt.
Future State was cobbled together out of the ashes that was 5G which was a Dan Dildo initiative
didio was just a scape goat for all the issues going on at dc most of the guys at the editorial level agreed with him but he was the one who got ousted
@@donb7519 That's because he brought in people who agreed with his Darker DC, then brought in Brian Michael "I hate canon" Bendis. DiDio did the same thing with Beast Machines, telling the writers to ignore not only the original Transformers cartoon but the Beast Wars series that came out just before it. That only came out recently so at the time it was Bob Skir (who was the showrunner who interacted with fans and tried to defend the ignorance while Marty Isenberg didn't say anything) who took flack from fans. There's a history of what DiDio did with DC.
@@ShadowWingTronix i mean lets be honest its not hard to stack the cards when so many comic pros agree with didios position on so many things like i said he's a scapegoat
@@donb7519 Back when the FireDiDio hashtag came out I wrote that it won't save DC because that's only part of the problem. However, he was in charge and did create the editorial mandates and a lot of the problems. Is he the only problem? I wish it were that easy. I won't miss him. I just need to see proof that whomever is taking over is going to get DC back on track, including undoing the damage done to Wally and his family before I can truly celebrate.
I am not a Flash fan. Not in the slightest but do feel bad for how they treat Wally. I mean didn't he just get redemption after the whole Heroes in Crisis incident?
Given that it went over like a lead balloon, of course they did. That's just cleaning up their own mess.
Me: can you give Wally West a break?
DC: No! In fact, we're gonna frame you for murder and you're going to jail for 30 years!
Me: why are you doing this to me?
Wally: 🎶 Because we're DC Comics. And life is a fucking nightmare!🎶
Unexpected John Mulaney
"It was me barry
I was the one who made DC comics frame wally for murder"
Flash Rebirth gave Wally a new secret identity as a police department carpool mechanic for the Keystone Police Department. But Geoff Johns should have taken a step further and gave him a new hero name.
You know, the whole 'stepping out of the shadow of their mentor' kind of thing that was given to the rest of the original Teen Titans. Have Wally and his family move to New York, with him working for the NYPD, while being closer to his old pals in the Titans.
@Megan Todd See Dick run. Sorry, old reader joke from back in the day.
It's not about whether he wanted to get out of Barry's shadow or not.
After all, it was Barry who changed Wally's Kid Flash costume from a copy of his own costume to the classic Kid Flash yellow and red costume.
Barry always wanted Wally to have his own identity and be his own person.
Future State: An idea where we lean heavily on legacy, letting old characters fade away while new character take up the mantle.
Fans: Great! You already have a great legacy Flash in Wally, or you can have Wallace. Many to choose from!
DC: Na bro.
I love your idea of Wally pulling a Nightwing and growing into his own character. He has his own Speed abilities and personality, he may as well become his own hero
Wally West should have pulled a Nightwing, ever since Barry Allen returned.
I'd argue Barry should have pulled a Jay Garrick. When most of the Flash mythos was done under Wally and most of the modern feats, its unfair for DC to have just given that back to Barry on a silver platter with a "anything Wally can do, Barry can do." Modern adaptions really rub it in, with Barry getting Wally's personality often because they know he's boring (minus the CW where he's still boring and instead gets Wally's history, discoveries, and feats). This is a different situation from Bruce and Batman where Bruce had an iconic personality and had do so much for Batman and the Batfamily (though I still say Dick should have taken over and I don't like how everything STILL revolves around Bruce). At this point DC just uses every other character to prop up the ones they want to promote. The rebirth Titans team is more interesting than the justice league? Gotta break them up. Enjoying supersons? Too bad, gotta age Jon up because I don't want to have to deal with him when writing Clark.
They really hate legacy characters, really wish he who shall not be named didn't screw wally, Cassandra cain, Stephen brown, Betty kain, Connor Kent, Donna Troy, the JSA, and all other Teen titans members
Its hilarious how they erased the past (JSA) and the future (Titans/YJ/other sidekicks). Even though I liked the new52 Earth 2, they could've done something more with the JSA & Infinity Inc
Heroes in Crisis is one of those things where the story exists without much reason other than "Didio wanted it, and Geoff couldn't think of anything for Wally to do in Doomsday Clock (Much like most of the Build-up to Doomsday Clock, the years building it up were a bit of a waste)".
I think it's also the reason Superman Reborn happened way too soon. Because otherwise Superman would be the same one Wally knew, and Superman could've legitimately helped Wally. But this was conveniently forgotten and the two never met until after Supermans histories got merged. Big missed opportunity for a good story there.
@Will N I feel a bit ashamed I forgot most of this despite having read Titans Rebirth.
I personally love Wally west my flash because he was a great legacy character and he actually earned the mantle of the flash and him having a family with his wife Linda park and his kids iris west II and jai west was awesome and tons of fun and seeing him be treated badly is just sad and depressing.
Not gonna lie, "Comics History with Sascha" is a lesson I'd pay to take part in
This is a big reason that I don't read superhero comics anymore. At least not the one in continuity. It's less about the story and more about meta reading. I think it's a problem that stems from not being able to commit to an audience. They can either just focus on stories and give up continuity like Archie comics or embrace the soap opera nature and move forward. I shouldn't be thinking of Didio while reading a story about Wally. I have zero investment in there characters because they're just not real to me anymore.
It's a sad day when you start becoming in recognizing comic politics and the tendencies of certain writers. Tom King is depressive, Didio hates legacy characters, Bendis has awkward dialogue etc.
I hate how Wally has been treated, but can we take a second to pour one out for poor Jay Garrick? He was missing post-Flashpoint just like Wally, only Wally came back at the beginning of Rebirth while Jay only just came back at the end of Doomsday Clock and has now been killed off. It feels to me like DC are trying to actively distance themselves from the direction Geoff Johns was taking DC when he was in charge.
I feel that DC is having issues with legacy characters from previous generations as a whole. While Wally West was treated the worst, there was a similar issue with Tim Drake when Damien Wayne became popular. Impulse was not used so much due to Wallace West being Kid Flash. And with the aging of Jonathan Kent and the upcoming CW series on Yara Flor, I can imagine Conner Kent and Cassie Sandsmark being placed to the side (or maybe hang out with Judy Winslow from Family Matters.)
even Wallys best mate got pretty much a kick in his rear. But surprisingly enough not from Didio, but from Johns. Remember when they turned Kyle Rayner into a new Paralaax after they brought back Hal and how much people got angry at that?
I think it is the standard comic book writer "not my X" problem, an attitude that legacy characters by their very nature can be incompatible with. Which is made worse with DC's reliance on grimdark stories/events and heroes-become-villains plots. Which itself is made even worse by DC writers/editors being completely inept at creating such stories.
DC just introduces too many to take the same mantles on. So while the League members are pretty much safe, we get 2 superboys, 2 wondergirls, 4 robins etc. The biggest issue fall on the Titans era (they grew out of their original mantles but can;t take over their mentors' roles). Then the Young Justice era also suffered (funnily the non-legacy characters just faded out of existence) So characters like Lilith, Empress, Secret, Argent, old Damage, etc couldn't exist outside of the Titans/YJ. Rebirth brought both teams back but couldn't even maintain them before bloating them with characters so they couldn't get proper development
@@BluemoonLacrymosa Legacy characters wouldn't be a problem if DC wasn't so determined to pretend that their timelines make sense. And it really is only pretending. DC writers and editorial choose what they want to acknowledge and ignore based on their own desires and the stories they want to tell. (Heaven help the characters that writers/editorial willfully wreck.) There is nothing except their own desires stopping them from ignoring legacy issues, and they selectively do that for some characters already.
@@BluemoonLacrymosa (What do you mean they’re original roles?)
Considering there was a time that they made two Batmen work, Why does Wally need to change. Jay Garrett has also been called the Flash. Wally West can evolve into a new identity or just stay the Flash. Put him in Checkmate like they did with Roy Harper. Do we have to go the Cliche route?
@Will N No, Donna Troy should stay Troia and not be Wonder Woman at all.
They should just change Wally West’s superhero name from Flash to something else.
@@trevturp7687 or they could change barry's superhero name to something else
yeah and also they could've made conner superman but never did. Instead they made superman blue and red. And whenever he starts getting close to becoming superman dc just resets him. Conner deserves the mantel of superman.
@@ProjektTaku They can’t do that, because Barry Allen is the main flash.
Why do they have to keep doing Wally like this? Like in Titans rebirth he was great and his interactions with everyone are so wholesome compared to Wallace in teen Titans, but Wally is the one who always becomes the villain
@Will N that would be smart but I don’t think the issue is that there is two as much as it is Wally is so fleshed out while they haven’t done much to establish why we should care about Wallace
@Will N i think they should stay as separate characters since there just so different. Wallace just needs a new direction.
@@dark3stknight174 Plus, with the way they've treated Wally over the years, what's the point of expecting them to change for Wallace?
Wally has really become the modern Zero Hour Hal Jordan. With the exact same superhero now turned bad guy plot.
Sadly they do and it just continues to build up my inner salt. It feels like he can never catch a break.
It's fun to see heroes suffer.
@Shawn Kuhn For me it is.
This was probably the best summary of the Flash conundrum that I have ever seen... well done!
If I had a footnote to add, it’s that even Post-Crisis Wally was not universally well received at first. Many readers that grew up on Barry’s comics were furious when that “punk kid” dared to try to replace Barry. Sadly, I am old enough to remember many of those comic shop conversations.
@Will N post-crisis acceptance was largely a generational thing. Younger fans generally had little problem with it but older fans tended to hate it. Age-wise, I was kind of in the middle of those groups, so I usually didn’t get into the heated debates... but I observed a few.
There were apparently enough fans of the changes to make it a success though, because DC actually gained market share on Marvel for a while. And I might be mis-remembering, but I think there was a month or two around ‘86 where DC actually outsold Marvel for the first time in nearly 20 years.
As to when things calmed down, it could be that things started to settle around BTAS because that’s just how long it took the older (angrier) fans to give up and fade away. In a way, the modern comic climate is very similar, with a lot of older fans getting angry at changes in the industry... the main difference being that there is not a large market of kid customers who are embracing the change.
@Will N I’m not sure that most people that were reading Crisis understood the goal of Crisis at the time. To be honest, I am not sure that I did either until we got pretty near the end of it. Most of the anger that I saw (that was not centered on the death of Barry and Supergirl) actually came after the dust settled and it became more obvious... and even more so after the publishing of the History of the DC Universe, which kind of sorted things out and set them in stone.
I once saw a guy that was furious over the fact that the Legion of Super-Pets had basically been removed from DC’s reality due to the Crisis. I had never even heard of Beppo the Super-Monkey (much less the Legion of Super-Pets) until that day. While they didn’t mean anything to me, after the guy left, my LCS owner did stress to me that almost every character had their fans. That turned out to be an important lesson that I carried with me several years later when I opened a shop of my own.
My own shop opened in ‘91. To the best of my recollection, the Crisis was never much of a topic in my shop. On rare occasions an older fan would bring it up but for the most part people were either “over it” or “only collecting Silver Age” by that point.
@Will N yeah, if there is one reoccurring theme in all of this, it’s that every attempt to “fix” continuity just ended up breaking some other part of it.
That said, I have never been overly bothered by the continuity fixing events... in fact, I was mainly a Marvel reader when the original Crisis came out, and I was so impressed by it that I started reading more DCs (and that has remained consistent for 35 years).
I am not a fan of the recent murderous incarnations of Wally though. That’s not really a continuity fix so much as it is just crapping on a character.
As a reader, I’m getting a little tired of being the wall DC thinks something might stick to. What’s next, does evil Wally team up with Parallax? Future State might end up being a good read, but stick it somewhere else in the Omniverse. I was really hoping that Wally would be to the Omnverse what Barry is to the Multiverse. Clearly there’s room enough for both. Each could take on a more cosmic role. As for who Wally killed, well they brought back most of the GL Corps, right? And even Power Girl’s history was straightened out....eventually.
I would read evil!Wally teams up with Parallax, just for the WTF. (& Wally is my fav Flash, & Hal is my fav GL)
What happened to Parallax? I know he showed up with married Clark & ran away, then briefly showed up in the long-hairedHal GL run to have a talk about Coast City being rebuilt, but is he still lurking out there?
DC Rebirth gave us one of the greatest comic panels when Barry brought Wally back, but DC has dropped the ball on Wally ever since.
Me *reads the title* : never ever I've been so disappointed with something I completely agree with.
Really they kill Wallace and then even more disrespectful they have Wally do it I’m so disgusted by DC right now
Future State Flash reads like somebody recently read Alan Moore's Marvel Man and wanted to do themore violent scenes using Flash characters.
It looks to me like every comics writer who read Marvelman before becoming a professional wants to write their version of the "Kid sidekick goes bad and murders a bunch of people" storyline -- and never with the poetry or depth of Alan Moore's prose to back it up.
I have an epiphany, why don't we write new stores instead of rehashing Alan Moore?
Poor Wally.... Look how they massacred my boy.
I remember wally west as the flash from the justice league the animated series THE FLASH, I didn’t even know who barry was then, as wally was the first flash i knew
First things first, I'm living for your Prince Robot IV shirt, Sasha! What does the speech balloon say?
As for the subject at hand, I am very much a "Wally is my Flash"-type. It does get to feel at times like DC has a mad-on for him, or maybe just contempt for his fans! They gave us the super emotional Barry/Wally embrace in Rebirth and made Wally's connection to the heroes of the DCU the literal lynchpin of restoring what had been lost, and then they proceeded to dump all over him anew!
We can't blame DiDio anymore - unless maybe this was all worked out back when they were planning Future State as "5G" - but he in particular famous was always gunning for killing Dick Grayson. And then later of course they did manage to shoot him in the head and...uh I won't open the can of Rics in the comments on this video.
But the point is, DC, under DiDio and otherwise, seems to have a very weird relationship to the Titans generation of heroes. Wally, Dick, Donna, Roy...Wally seems to be the current punching bag, but how many times have we seen each of them murdered, maimed, or otherwise seriously traumatized on panel! Even often in other media, such as the Young Justice cartoon or the live action Titans show. Their version of the Titans, beloved as one of the all-time classic teams and one of the all-time classic superhero comics, full-stop, was even retconned out of existence in the New 52! More often than not, it is they who are the expendable characters to get a reaction out of their mentors like Barry, Bruce, Diana, and Ollie. The problem is so many of us have watched them grow into strong characters in their own right, and many of us grew up with them even moreso than their predecessors OR successors, and it really stings to see them disproportionately used as collateral damage.
Now, Future State may simply be a temporary shift before we get back to a more recognizable status quo, but regardless, I think the point many of us would make would be that such actions are out of character for Wally regardless of circumstance. In any case, after all he has already been put through in recent memory, whether or not any individual feels the need for #justiceforwally, isn't it at least reasonable to ask, how about we #givewallyabreak?
My Wally was the Will Messner-Loebs Wally. Despite what came later, I just say there have been few Barry stories in the last 11 years that actually needed Barry as the Flash.
He went through a lot with that in creative team. It was a good run.
DC just doesn't know what to do with Wally and it's obvious. Which is a shame the best Flash stories of all time are from his run outside of pre crisis and the silver age, especially Waid's run. Even if he's a nut these days. He's a damn good writer and Born to Run is one of the best comic stories I've ever read. Kyle Rayner is in a similar boat but he was never turned into a murderer at least. But I still love Barry, especially with Williamson's run in rebirth. Love the videos Sasha!
They however tried to make Kyle a Villain. Remember him as Paralax? Yes, that happened. And fans weren't happy to tell the least.
They have never known what to do with Supergirl either. The only good treatment of Supergirl and a civilian career is the TV series!
Why does dc comics keep ruining Wally west my flash for garbage because frankly Wally west is my flash who I grew up with and seeing him keep getting ruined is just sad and depressing.
As a complete outsider to the flash family,I am generally confused on why wally can't just be a flash or another hero. It just seems like Dan didto hated the legacy people and now everyone is confused on how to fix stuff when there is a simple solution they have done before.
I hope this truly is the last remnant of Didio's influence the way many writers said when the news about FS dropped. He's destroyed the "first" legacy characters enough. (Saying "first" here because Didio had an obvious problem with the OG Titans, but apparently not with the OG Young Justice generation.) I hope new and better adventures await Wally fans this year.
@Will N I agree that he saw the benefit in only using the Robin name once, but he wasn't against the Red Robin identity. Tim used the moniker up until 2017 (or even 18?). Drake was Bendis' idea. But, yeah, it was a dumb idea.
DC right now hates all legacy heroes, its so sad, they still think fans don't want change, when the reality is, DC themselves don't want change.
DC wants all their legacy characters to suffer or be erased. It's sad to see.
It's kinda sad cuz I actually like legacy characters
Testify, Amber! I've never heard my own sentiment against DCs recent editorial practices put more directly or eloquently!
And the sad irony is that many, if not most of the "original" versions they're being thrown aside for are legacy versions of golden age characters. Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Dan Garrett all were replaced and that's fine, but replace Barry Allen, Hal Jordan and Ted Kord? That's too far for Didio's ilk.
yeah look how dirty conner was done
If they cut out Heroes in Crisis and made Wally a Cosmic Speedster looking for his family, that would have been much better. #JusticeForWally
Thanks Sasha, that was great I love Flash and I guess the only knowledge that I really have from it is the the CW tv show. It gives me a different insight to how things look. I feel that this Wally doesn't catch a break and that the writers just got tired and didn't know what to do with him. Maybe you should do a deep dive on Iris West next? thank you and have a great day!
Youd be surprised how complicated iris west is
15:41-16:09 Saying "it all happened, it all counts" doesn't help when there's been so much disappointment since 2011. You want to tell me that the stories I read before Flashpoint "still count", where characters had actual development and weren't weak imitations for someone's amateur poetry? Great. Then why can't I read the continuation of that? I don't care about some hack's "reinvented" version, because it was bad. Continuing with the terrible version and saying the better version is "out there somewhere" doesn't make me want to buy the comics with the bad version. As Fulton Sheen said, "It's little consolation for 99 donkeys that the 100th will get a carrot."
Technically, I knew Barry Allen first because of the 90's TV show, but I was pretty young when that aired. Wally is a character I liked when I really got into collecting in the 90's, but I never followed him outside the JLA comics. He was probably my favorite character in the Justice League cartoon (even thought I'm a Bat-fan). Despite my lack of committal, it's easy to sympathize with his fans with how he's been treated, when DC has seemed so keen on screwing up *so many* characters for, seemingly, no reason, or really, really dumb reasons. Even some who think they're "helping" are prone to this.
I could not agree more with this
As a fan of all Flash storylines, I was bought up on Barry Allen as the flash when crisis happened i was torn about their being someone to replace my guy. Wally gets the raw end of the shaft all the time. I do think they are trying to divide the community with Barry v Wally almost feels like they wanna push Wally into the Reverse Flash role without ever calling him that!!
It occurs to me that Walley West is my Flash, as I really started reading DC books after Crisis. But your shirt though! Is that a FLCL shirt? AWESOME!!!
"Thanks for keeping my seat warm, but Daddy's home now." 🤣😂🤣😂
I wish my mental state was as strong as Wally's hair gel.
It's all cannon, eh? Sounds like DC just brought back "Hypertime" from the 90s. It didn't work back then...
If I was in dc I would run Wally and Barry like Grayson and Bruce. Barry would be the protector or Flash of Central City, and Wally would be the Flash of Keystone City.
Meeeeoow, "More whiplash than Maxwell Lord" great comment (Video 19.16 ish)
I am waiting for post Future State Flash book because the first arc is already titled The Redemption of Wally West. I believe this is a way for new readers that may have not read Heroes in Crisis to see Wally hit a low before the new arc with his redemption.
Your hair today reminded me of when I was a kid and TV would end transmtion. It'd show this color palette just like yours! Thanks for that!
One thing I never could figure out with Walley is why DC never just gave him a new hero name and just keep him around.
Didn't Barry Allen once die becoming lightning going back in time and turns out to be the lightning strike that gave him his powers?
In retro, I think when Barry came back, he should have been a teenager. Have the roles reversed, with Wally as the mentor. Give Barry his own book where he has to start over in a new city, relearning his powers again. Maybe at some point he ages up and continues in the new city, or Wally moves on...maybe to the Batman Beyond timeline..I mean why waste the title of Flash Forward, when it could have meant something.
Maybe have Wally be Reverse Flash's kid from that timeline (RF likes macking in different timelines?), he sent back as an endgame against Flash. It fails, Wally finds out he was adopted, his powers were given to him by Thawne, and he is from the future..Batman being Batman, steps out from the shadows and says, "I knew it all along!" "Now go...and say hi to Terry for me (Batman Beyond is canon now and Terry has been to the past).
I had a similar thought, but with Barry not becoming a teenager. The entire concept of "The Speed Force" came about during Wally's run as The Flash (pun not intended) and it really would have worked to have Wally in a mentor role to Barry just trying to get him up to speed (pun intended) on how their powers work.
I remember when wally west really was a kid flash, then he was matured for the teen Titans, then he became the flash, but a dark version of the flash... of course I also remember when my comic loving friends and I would talk about the difference twixt DC & Marvel, with Marvel being the dark gritty comics. Believe it or not. (I started reading comics in the 60's.)
As always, thank you so very much for the video.
Wally is my Flash due to him being the Flash when I was growing up. I remember the confusion when the 90s show was on and they used Barry. I read Barry's stories and always felt like they were just the same thing over and over again. Though different eras of writers so it's not the fictional characters fault for that haha. I enjoyed Wally's struggles with taking the mantle and how he made it his own.
The Nightwing comparison to Wally is thee best point I've seen about this topic. Dick couldn't he Batman so he chose to be something else. Wally can't be The Flash so let him be something else? Red Bolt, Red Lightning, Wally Quick, something.
I think the thing that Wally fans object to the most is him being a villain. I would read a book of Wally being the new Sensei of Speed to young Speedsters, or Wally teaching his own kids how to be heroes. Family Man Wally could be an approachable FF- esq where Wally goes on adventures with his kids to make up for the time he's lost with them.
I've rambled enough. Great video.
Mister Fancyfeet?
If I was put in charge of DC, I would make Jay Garrick the main flash, just for the chaos of it(he is my favorite flash, but I think the fall out would be more fun).
There is that 20 min. tale of how D.C.hates Wally West. I am here for it.
I thinks they never wanted him back to life and they said ok but your not going to like it. Wally is no official to evil to join the rouges. That should have been a seen have cold or a rouge say your scum to him in jail. Rouges always bust each other out of jail or a jam. Wally framed buster gold for a crime.
@@daraghokane4236 I agree it has a bit of a how do you like Wally now feel to it
@@fredcampbell4066 Rouges don't kill women and children the rouges should hunt wally down as a comic. Also in final crisis even when mind controlled by libra the villains were held responsible for what they did but wally isn't responsible its zooms fault.
I like Barry. I like Wally. I also liked Jay, and Max Mercury, and Impulse, and Wallace, and their dead...because of Wally, but it’s not his fault, or maybe it is 🤷🏾♂️ I don’t want Flash War + Heroes in Crisis, and I’m hoping the story doesn’t end with Wally not having redemption in some way
The coloring on your hair in this video is amazing!
Honestly the fact they did this so soon after they were fixing Wally is what hurts ok things look to be back on track but nope
Honestly I can take solace in two things that one Wally is possessed by a demon so he’s not doing this willingly the other is that given that nature of comics this is definitely not mainline Wallys future so the og is safe
Still Future State Flash is definitely the weakest of all the future state stories since it seems it’s trying to be dark and edgy for the sake of it and that was obvious to me when Bart was killed so unceremoniously at least Jays death had a purpose
In order I’m going with
Wonder Woman
Batman
Superman
Harley Quinn
Flash
Didio did so warm to DC in general, especially to the Legacy
“Flash books...” how could you miss the pun, “Flash cards”?
I didn't grow up reading Wally, or the Flash at all. But I got into it with the new 52 and then backtracked hard and read any Flash I could and can't help but adore Wally. When he came back he worked extremely well just as a second Flash. Why can't we just have two Flash books in tandem, sometimes crossing over, it works well with Peter Parkers and Miles Morales' books.
I really wish they’d either do what they did with nightwing and red hood for Wally, or that they’d leave him alone and let him be because the last thing we saw was everything about Wallys life being restored to how it was pre 52, so what’s the point of making him a villain now or trying to mess with fans more
I had the same reaction with Penance (Robbie Baldwin) when he was a part of the Government run Thunderbolts.
God, I hate what they did to him, though his character is back to being Speedball now, so... there is that.
This is the “You’re such a good guy, Barry” show, Dagmammit
7:18 "I have no idea who this is"
Now Barry's screwing up the timeline by just existing at this point haha
They did him dirty. And it seemed like every step of the way they dug deeper. Like if Heroes in Crisis had to happen, why retcon it instead of going whole hog and putting Wally in the suicide squad in a new identity? Or like the hostess said, introduce a new kid flash instead of rebooting him into a new character.... jeez
"because everything exists so rejoice". Words to live by.
Poor Wally! I grew up on Barry Allen Flash... but grew to love Wally West Flash... and was horrified by what they did to the character.
It didn’t fit his character at all.
DC ... fix this ... now!
In the comic book in my head... Wally is still a hero... and Batman fixed it😉 ( he had a plan... he always had a plan😉)
Great video Sasha!
@@timyuusis3372 🤣👍👍
I hate that they treat Wally this way. He is my Flash, I watch DCAU and Young Justice. Justice for Wally, they could just rename him red lightning or something and let him be a hero.
But a villain is much more interesting, don't you think?
@@galio7741 No, I love Wally as a hero.
@@galio7741 no.
@@galio7741 A villainous version of a hero can work if they're done well. This new version of Wally isn't and is only being portrayed as evil to make Barry look better.
@@galio7741 Not if they completely contradict everything the Hero is and has done.
Thank you for the context on Wallace ! I remeber seeing a whole lot of questionable stuff about it on Twitter at the time. Also 😍 your hair.
I love jay so im salty they just killed him so quickly
Hea a great character! I love golden age characters and the JSA
I mainly remember Wally from the Young Justice tv show. That's also how I found out about Bart, Blue Beatle, and others. It was a good show.
Wallace feels like he tells the story of a lot of legacy characters who end up being a different race. He has a lot of potential and would be liked almost universally if their implementation into the stories would of actually been good.
I am not racist, but Wallace West is a terrible character. He is cheap knockoff of Wally West and his existence is baffling. Wallace West is not the real Wally West, he is an imposter. I hate Wallace West and I’m happy that the real Wally West killed that fake bastard.
What irks me more is this seems specifically targeting Wally over other legacies. HIC is fresh in our minds. Why not use another speedster? The non-Flash speedsters were trapped in the Speed Force this whole time. They could easily have been possessed and used (especially since Max's meditation skill makes him so in tune and Johnny Quick was lost in the force)
"Lets make him bad" 😂
Well done. Sexy yet hilarious. "Daddy is home now."
"Everything is FINE"
I am just taking in all this information.
I first started collecting Flash shortly after Crisis on Infinite Earths. I didn't know who Barry was except through Wally's perspective who always tried to live up to his legacy. A legacy which now ran from Jay Garrick to him though Barry. They invented the Legacy Character right there. You watch him grow from an insecure young man, to being a responsible mentor, husband and father. It was a really good arc. There was even a whole thing in the early aughts where he was looking for someone to take over the mantle after him, after he got the revelation he was supposed to die soon. He actually mentored a whole bunch of people.
That's what pisses me off about the whole thing. Barry's death established that the mantle could be passed on and that it would work. I remember the letters pages back in the day always full of letters complaining that they wanted Barry back and the editors telling the readers to give Wally a chance. And then more than 20 years later, after having won that battle, they say fuck it. Bring back the old guy no one knew anymore. When what would have hit better was to give Wally the same sort of send off Barry got to have. An epic farewell and a passing of the torch.
So pissed off.
Man, DC is such a convoluted mess when it comes to continuity and tracking down character origins to "where are they now?" Thank you CC for doing all this hard research!
Why don't they move Wally to a new city in the country and he be The Flash of that city so you have both Flashes doing their thing in their own location?
It's amazing to me that, due to their bungling, DC has more or less repeated what happened to Hal Jordan in the 90s with Wally West...
1) Both went nuts and killed people.
2) Both regretted it and gained God like power.
3) Both had their falls from grace Retconned to say that they were actually being influenced by an outside force.
If nothing else this builds a stronger case for the Hal/Barry shippers who write fanfiction about Wally being their adopted son.
Funny thing is that the retcon only helps explain why wally hid and framed people, not why wally killed all those people, so the blood is still on his hands
@@megamonmon I would argue accidental manslaughter, since Wally only killed Roy and the others because he lost control of his powers. I feel like DC is trying to have their cake and eat too, Wally still feels guilty and reasonable for what happened at Sanctuary but by saying Thawne MADE him frame Booster and Harley, Wally's technically not a murderer as the decision to possibility turn himself in from the start was taken away. And considering that we saw Thawne influence him and Barry in Flash War before HiC, whose to say that Thawne didn't also cause the chain of events leading to the deaths?
Wally was the Flash I grew up with, one of the rare examples of lasting and impactful character progression in comics. His sabotage infuriated me. Good on you for making this video!
Sasha: Superman gf Louis Lane
Me: falls off chair 😂😂😂
Jay should still have speed even without the Speed Force as it is his metahuman power. Not as much soeed obviously but he's still got like, Quicksilver speed.
I will never forgive Tom King and DC for what they did to Wally in Crisis in Crisis. His powers don't even work that way and what he did was totally out of character. They need to retcon that.
@Will N All williamson's retcon does it explain why wally framed everyone, not why or how he killed them. Also as far as Im aware they never told king to make wally the murderer, just that he had to use booster, harley and wally as prominent characters, every other writing decision made falls on his shoulders unless there is more unrevealed editorial meddling.
@Will N They always use Zoom, but I was thinking Abra Kadabra would have been perfect.
He remembered his fights against Wally when he was the only Flash (way back in the 1990s) and he had the 64th century tech to mess with his powers and brainwash him into doing what he did.
Still, at the end of the day, Wally wasn't handled well at all and it showed.
I can't believe it didn't occur to the writers that they could just give Wally his own mantle like Nightwing. How did they miss that obvious solution?
Trademarking takes time and people fear failure. What if people hate the new name? People always hate the new names. [x]
So good!!! Keep up the good work!!!!!
The scope of this video - to cover the entire history of Wally West - very ambitious. And you nailed it.
Man, who has a bigger case of whiplash: Gwen Stacy or Maxwell Lord?
Anyone else think that the flash would be great in the bedroom? That vibrating speed? I mean, he is the fastest man alive so I guess it would be over quick... Poor Iris...
Yes, they do
A big fan of Kid flash... you are right. The devil is in the pudding.
They also hate Tim Drake
It's amazing how even-handed yet comprehensive Sasha's analysis and recounting is, giving all sides to an argument without resorting to branding some people as bigots or anal-fixated nerds.
This is amazing considering how partisan and bitter comic commentary on social media has become.
I kind of feel like they could of done it like a green lantern corps sort of deal, every flash just had his own little part of the world to cover and that be the end of it, it's kind of a let down they decided to just go down the villain road with Wally instead of doing something I guess more original? But it's good he's back just ya wish he would of got a better comeback than what he got and left in limbo