Superman's first murder in the comics (post-Crisis) was exposing three Kryptonian criminals to green kryptonite radiation until they died after they destoryed an alternate Earth and threatened to do the same to Superman's Earth.
Quote from Wonder Woman herself. "Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can passify, and don't raise a hand at all until you first extended it." She went through all the options already, Max wasn't going to stop, she did what she had to. This was further gone into in Manhunter Vol 3 Issue 29, where Kate Spencer, AKA Manhunter, AKA the best lawyer in the DC Universe, takes up this case to defend Wonder Woman. Even Superman admits that it was the right call.
@Nnamdi Uyalor,Jr you are probably right but max could have taken back control of Superman at any moment and it highly unlikely that Wonder Woman could go other round with Superman
The thing that bugs me about the neck snap is that future writers treated the move as Diana's default modus operandi and not one informed by desperation...
The neck snap in the context of your thoughts remind me of exactly what is wrong in comics today. Feminists (in comics) are parodies of stereotypes. They have to be just as tough, unfeeling, etc as >insert name here< (Batman, Superman, etc). The writers take one view of the character and expand that view (the stereotype) to consume the entire character. When this is layered with Politics, biases, inconsistencies, etc - it can create a distortion so huge that the character alienates the audience. I believe that is what is happening to comics today. Comics need to get back to basics - heroics. The "Gritty" age needs to come to a close - and if heroes aren't found here - the audience will move along to create them else where.
The idea that Wonder Woman didn't have a popular reoccurring rogue's gallery like Batman is because she kills them all was actually implied to be canon for awhile.
@@lindyxmjh4589 I think its because DC never cared about her and her villains, unlike Batman. Because if I remember correctly, she never killed Minerva's Cheetah, or Giganta, or Silver Swan. It's just recently that they're trying to focus more on her rogue's gallery and i think that's perfect
My guess? I think because 1) it was the Zod of an alternate universe who only appeared for that one story so it wasn't the "real" Zod and 2) Max Lord was a popular supporting character who got heel turned then killed. So JLI fans lose a character they liked twice over. If Wonder Woman had killed say, the Pre-Crisis Cheetah it would not have been as controversial. Fans would still have the current version.
I'm pro neck snap. I think it adds some darn fine layers to Diana's character. First and foremost, Diana will do what's right. She's not bound by laws that benefit scumbags like Lex Luthor and Simon Stagg. If Diana has to make a hard call, she'll make the call and own it. This makes her a contrast to Batman and Superman, especially Batman who has an almost psychotic need to not kill. Wonder Woman makes the hard choices, but only as a last resort, and I think that makes for not just a strong woman, but a strong person.
I agree, but honestly the Batman no kill rule and no kill code is a newer invention. Golden Age Batman literally snapped necks, which is why only until silver age, bronze, and most recently did we get all of the strictures with The Bat and no killing. Although DC, and comics in general retcons a lot, I still find it interesting, and compelling how there’s been a total erasure that many prominent superheros did kill at one point.
Was Wonder Woman right to do it? Yes. Was this a moment of strength for her? Her entire battle with possessed Supes was badass. The snap was the thrilling conclusion. Were there other options? Yes, but there wasn't enough time to get Zatanna and Martian Manhunter down there to help. Was the fall out justified? No. Should we move on? Yes. Please.
So, I'm in the Pro-Neck Snap room, BUT, I think the fallout and Diana's reaction was woefully mishandled. She should have been upset about the fact that she was forced to kill him, and Batman and Superman were acting really out of character. Iirc, they weren't originally supposed to, with Batman being more understanding.
What if that bit where Superman "sees no rage" in her eyes ended with Superman leaving, only for the caption box to say something like "But Superman didn't look deep enough" and there's this teensy tear in Wonder Woman's eye, like deep down she's in tears but she's consciously telling herself "I did what I had to do" so hard it won't come out?
Wonder Woman is a big fan of the song Rhythm is a Dancer, by the group SNAP! But seriously, glad she stuck by her choice, but going forward, DC was like, "Well, swords, shields, greek armor and killing is her main personality now". You know, kinda surprised that media hasn't even alluded to Max's death, even in WW84 as a idea. (A Kirk reference and no Chris Pine Steve Trevor joke? The restraint or a slip of the mind? lol)
Agreed. Diana made the right choice within the story, but I dislike it as part of DC’s continuous push to give Wonder Woman a more hardened, Xena-like persona.
Yeah, that's what I liked about WW84 because Max Lord wasn't this irredeemable psycopath like in the comics, therefor his actions didn't require Wonder Woman to straight up kill him
@@tinymxnticoreI give it a pass on that, because that issue and subsequent ones actually handle her well. If anything, I see it as a good example of how to handle making Diana extremely compassionate but not naive and able to make a hard choice when push comes to shove. She is portrayed just the same otherwise. The clusterfuck of mishandlings comes after that, which didn't have to happen and didn't flow naturally from this story either. Also the general circumstances of DC just turning everything towards emo nihilist edge lord territory "so mature, grim and dark" nonsense. And don't get me started on the unstoppable superman dickriding shit DC is always on about. If anything, it was one of the last times she was portrayed decently for a while considering what was happening around in DC and about to come. So it definitely gets a pass from me for that.
@@louisvictor3473It’s interesting how what follows an event often colors how the event itself is perceived...like how The Force Awakens was widely acclaimed before TLJ and TRoS, or the eighth season of Game of Thrones.
@@tinymxnticore True. Myself included. My previous position (good concept, terrible execution all around) came from the numerous recaps of the event later (in and out of comics), which I only realized because I reread the issues after this video to check my memory, and my memory wasn't even from the issue(s) anymore.
Confession time: I'm an idiot. Up until these last two Lord videos, I'd always viewed the neck snap as Max using his powers to make WW do it. Totally forgot she was using the lasso of truth.
@@louisvictor3473 He was telling WW how she can stop him to control Superman. It could be see as you point it out, but Max was under the influence of the lasso too.
@@x2194306 But Max knew about the lasso and that was a very forseeable scenario. So it is almost certain that he arranged things so even the lasso played into his plan.
@@greenrandall143 He made is so he would win no matter what happened, but I don't think he wanted to die He just cared about winning more than his own life.
@@toddnolastname4485 I mean, if I was doing a full list I'd also include all the times between Crisis and the New 52 were they sort of restored the multiverse but not quite
I do think there's this weird thing where it's like 'we want more morally complicated moments that make people think! No, not like that!' I do like the idea of Wonder Woman having a desperate moment where she chooses to kill someone to save others, and has to deal with the fall out. But I also prefer good/morally ambiguous Max Lord over evil Max, and I hate how much this moment has come to define him.
I adore Rucka's run on Wonder Woman (or rather, both of them). I know he had intended to try to deal with the fallout himself, but was fired from the title immediately after the neck snap. I personally really like the way Marc Andreyko handled it in Manhunter, having Wonder Woman go on trial herself, and prove herself right.
I was fine with her doing that because it was necessary. She received no joy from doing it and only did it as a last resort. "You kill monsters," she said, and she was right.
Your love for the 52 mini series gives me life, I am so here for it. 52 was my 1st entrance into comics and it made me love Booster Gold and the Booster Gold series made me ship Boostle and this led me to the JLI, it all comes together in the end doesn't it 😀
It's because she was using the Lasso of Truth to stabilize her arm after Superman broke her wrist. She's definitely been mind controlled by Dr. Psycho before, so she's not immune.
Diana isn't afraid to kill when necessary. I remember reading Wonder Woman #5 ("The Ares Assault!", June 1987) and my jaw dropping in awe as she hurled her tiara and cut Ares' son Deimos' head right off.
As a JLI fan, I find Max's turn pretty believable, since even at the beginning of his story, he was trying to murder his boss (that's before he found the sentient computer.) He walked the line pretty well. But IMO, they should drop the "snap" thing... as well as the connection between him and WW. It worked for a while, but before that, they barely knew each other. I've always felt that if Max is going to be a villain, he should be a JLI villain, as he was (sorta) in "Justice League: Generation Lost" during Brightest Day. The Max in WW 1984 is VERY much an original 80s Max, IMO. Even though he wasn't 1) a successful businessman, 2) especially good at manipulating people, or 3) able to control minds (so, basically, not very Max-ish), I felt that everything he did was exactly what an original 80s Max would've done in his position. And they could still make him go evil. Just have his son die due to superhero destruction, instead of his mom. Heck, make it be something that happened in "Man of Steel."
I think what bugs me the most in debates about fictional events - be it the neck-snap of Lord by WW or the neck-snap of Zod by Clark in the Snyder film - is the argument that the hero "had no choice." First, we aren't talking about a retelling of a historic event, set in stone by ... you know, reality. We are talking about fabricated events in fiction created by writers who CHOSE to create the scenario. That being said, even the fabrication by writers ignores the very idea behind what it means to be a hero. We focus so much on flying and running at the speed of sound, the strength to lift mountains, incinerate stone with a glance and force truthful confessions by magic, that we miss the REAL super-powers that these heroes are supposed to have. Wonder Woman and Superman, for all their godlike abilities, embody a humanity and compassion that is equally superhuman. There is no such thing as not having a choice for a someone with that much power AND that much humanity. They would always find a way. Or, failing to do so, they would sacrifice THEMSELVES before sacrificing another. Superman died fighting Doomsday. Imagine if Diana had had responded to Lord: "No, I won't kill you. There is another way." And then turned and fought Clark to a standstill forcing Clark, in his delirium, to kill her. That snaps Clark out of Lord's spell, and Lord just doesn't have the power to overcome the grief and conviction inspired by the event. For all the talk about Truth and Hope connected with these characters, the writers so easily forget about them when they want to.
I’m Pro-neck snap. I don’t like that it happened but I recognize that it was the only way she had time for. Diana had one option available and she had to do it quickly. As for the follow out of such a decision I find it to be very unfortunate. Her friends and family abandon her like she was a stranger.
So this is what happens when Phantom Stranger is running late... This reminds me of One More Day. The writers want to set up a situation where the hero makes a hard choice because all other options are off the table, but don't do a good enough job ruling out the other options in a satisfactory way. Superman can be de-powered or otherwise rendered unable to cause mass harm a number of ways, phantom zone or red sunlight spring to mind. Beyond that, why is it that just because Martian Manhunter thinks he can't fix superman, that no other options are on the table. Max may be honest in his belief that they can't undo his hold on superman, but even if we grant that the lasso would prevent his arrogance from blinding him, its not like he's done intensice clinical trials of all the means of fixing psychic damage to a Kyrptobian available to the combined heroes of the justice league and all their allies.
Depowering Superman or locking him up in the Phantom Zone would be punishing him instead of Max. Not to mention, it doesn't stop Max from controlling someone else like he once did to Power Girl. The Martian Manhunter is a telepath, if anyone would have a good idea as to what would or wouldn't do permanent damage it was him. This is not remotely in the same ball park as One More Day. Ingrained telepathic control is a lot more difficult to fix than a bullet wound.
"Wait!" Superman gargles past his ripped but healing throat. "Does the Phantom Zone still exist in this continuity? Because if it does, I have a plan!" (I don't actually mind the neck snap, it can be a good way to layer distinctions in the Trinity for character purposes. But of course there were options.)
The best line in Infinite Crisis was from Batman "You haven't inspired anyone since you died." She did own what she did, and I cannot fault her one bit. I did like the return of the JLI with Max Lord as the big bad and making the world forget the JLI members.
Idk it felt very in-character for Diana to kill when there was no other option. She’s the one least likely to get caught up in the guilt of having done it and would continue being a hero afterwards despite it (don’t think I could say the same of Bruce & Clark.) It makes me wonder how many other times a hero has killed someone and what the fallout was? That’d be a very interesting playlist/series
Superman killed Zod and was so guilty he suffered nightmares and eventually went around sleep walking dressed up as Gangbuster and was beating the snot out of criminals.
@@cui8789 Maybe one interpretation, but I guess you could also interpret that Diana comes off as both narcissistic with her "I only did what I had to" stance and vain because the only reason she felt bad after was because people didn't like her anymore.
The neck snap was the right move, sometimes that's the only option there is. That's just me but I'm not inspired by heroes who only ever get to take the easy way out morally speaking. Joker should definitely get a neck snap too
I always remember Max as a scumbag. Not an outright villain, but not someone you could trust. He put the JLI together not just to do good, but to advance himself. He got Huntress on the team by using his powers to "persuade" her... so by mentally assaulting her to get her on the team. He had certain lines he wouldn't cross, but he was still willing to sink to some low depths. Seeing him suddenly be all "Nyah! People with powers can't be trusted and must be brought to heel or destroyed! Nyah!" was garbage. It was just more of DC trying to show us how edgy and mature they were. Trying to please their aging and jaded fan base. But did they think at all, that maybe taking their characters all down this "mature" and very "adult"path, that they were pushing away the new young readers that they were gonna need to keep their company going in a few years? I'd like to see some stats on DC readers and their age demographics.
I was just watching "The Watch" on BBCAmerica and they did something funny/ironic. While the heroes are killing off henchbeings trying to kill them, the henchers shout out things like, "He was a dad with 6 kids!" or "that was my wife!". I love seeing that killing has consequences, that even in silly stories with minor characters, they meant something to someone.
WW84 definitely sets up Diana as a protector, with some subtle shade against the Snyderverse orgins “I hate guns” so it makes sense that she would reach out to Max to appeal to his better nature
I always thought of Wonder Woman as someone who would kill an enemy, but only when all other options have been exhausted. In one arc she said she loves everyone. She loves her villains just as much as she loves her friends. It makes her a more tragic hero because she might be forced to not only kill someone she not only doesn't want to, but someone she loves. That's has to be hard for her. Weighing the duties to her world and her friends against the life of someone that matters to her. I haven't read every single run of Wonder Woman but I have read enough and I never read a comic where she took about to preserve all life like Batman or Superman. In one of the Spider-Man movies Green goblin said that's why you don't want to be a hero is because you never know when someone's going to present you with an impossible choice. Maxwell Lord did present her with an impossible choice, to save her friends or disappoint her friends. I think it would have been more poorly received if it were Batman who had to make that choice, but again Wonder woman is not tied down to the same moral code of non-lethal forces like Superman or Batman. And if we're nit picking Superman did technically kill Doomsday, yeah he killed himself doing it but no one blames him for killing Doomsday. I think a hero like Diana is someone who will do that to protect her friends but it's never her first option it's always her last option.
Something should be said about how this also gave birth to the meme that Wonder Woman hates necks. There's even a collage of all the times she was since depicted attacking necks in one form or another.
I’ve been collecting comics since the 70s.The problem with ongoing comics is that they cannot be innocent and complicated...because they are open ended intellectual properties of corporations. Wonder Woman’s neck snapped worked because of the era in which it was written. She had even killed monsters in Geoge Perez runs, so she was known as a warrior. DC purposely put their main heroes through the wringer. Just as the golden age of goofiness worked for its era..and bizarrely even the 60 Mod Wonder Wiman worked as well for its era. Dan Didio was right when he said if the stakes aren’t high and real, the readers have no reason to care. The sad part is long time readers get into recognizing cycles of comics.
I still remember that story from Sacrifice. Wonder Woman killing Max made sense. There was nothing else that could be done at the time and Max said himself he would keep coming, why risk it? He wasn't gonna stop. She did the right thing.
In the story? Yes but metatextually the guys at dc at the time wanted her to kill max. Id say alot of what happened surrounding maxwell lord was about what dc wanted to do, rather than what made sense for the characters
@@megamonmon And how exactly is that any different from always 'finding another way'? Which is just as much editorial mandate as killing Maxwell Lord. Both are the creation of humans. Just like every story ever written.
Look, I cry over Ted Kord's death whenever I read the Booster Gold arc. That's the only reason I'm pro my girl neck snapping him. I legitimately thought it was her reason for the longest time. Every time Max is adpated into anything my brain is like "neck snap him before he kills Ted!" The 84 version is a major disconnect in my brain. It's half "why didn't she snap his neck so he doesn't kill Ted Kord" and half "the lack of neck snap is a good direction for what this movie was going for".
The comments from Rucka remind me of JJ Abrams attitudes towards the original series of Star trek. He thought the old series was just goofball and campy, but didn't bother to look at the content of the stories or the cultural significance.
I love your channel ! It is always challenging and thought provoking. Death is an absolute last resort, never to be taken lightly or for granted. It not only changes you but other peoples perception of you as well. Which I think was your point all along ! This vid reminded me of the of the final act of "City on the edge of Forever" .
I'm pro neck snap and I like that Superman and Batman didn't react well to it. it helps set her apart from them. I wasn't thrilled with Max being retconned, especially given that at one point Martian Manhunter had read his mind and verified that he was a good man.
The way they keep dragging Maxwell Lord up against wonder Woman reminds me of Marvel's obsession with constantly throwing Rogue at Carol Danvers. Like, they're both adults and superheroes now, so why continually punish them for something Rogue did as a supervillainous teenager? Drop it already and move on!
Very interesting episode, Sasha. You should discuss the controversy/discussion over Maximum Carnage and Spider-Man's inane refusal to kill Carnage even though Carnage was literally murdering everyone in New York. It's like how people argue that Batman should kill the Joker, but x1000. It was a wild time. I remember interesting discussions around Carnage back then.
It's important to remember that these comics teach you not to care about the villain's victims. Only the feelings of our 'heroes'. To the No Killing types; mass casualties might as well be faceless bots in a MMORPG. Once I started identifying with the victims on the ground; I came to hate most DC/Marvel heroes for their pretensions to sainthood.
In my head-cannon one day a spaceship will land in Metropolis and the Justice League will gather to investigate. When it opens Maxwell Lord in 1980s attire will step out, thanking Magna Kahn for the ride, his back to the outside. When he turns around the JLA will confront him and learn that Maxwell Lord has been in space all this time negotiating a contract for costume designs from Mr. Nebula and missed all the events since his Supperbuddies time, including Flashpoint, the NU52, Rebirth, and his apparent death. From there he sets out to convince his old team that he's back and he's the Maxwell Lord they knew and , um, loved(?) while trying to figure a scheme to get himself back on top. This is when he learns of the evil Max Lord and we, the readers, now can choose which one we want to believe is the "real" one.
I have to watch this again because I have ADD and was distracted the entire video by the dual jaguars on Sash’s sweater. I’m both captivated by the feline fierceness and curious about the backstory on how the sweater came into being.
I never read all the JLI run, but I read a bunch of issues back in the day (the late 90s, waaay before Sacrifice) and I always felt Max was hiding something. Obviously what they did with him in Countdown to IC was a bit too much, but him turning a villain didn't felt thaaat wrong (to me). But the snap... gosh. There's always a way, It really was too much, and Diana reacted weird. If she at least would had knelt and cried like Superman in the Man of Steel movie... But no, she was cold as f***. Anyways, I'm a great fan of that era (Identity Crisis to 52 and beyond). Despite all its wrongness hahaha One of your best videos ;)
My thoughts? It's . . . complicated. On the one hand, I don't mind Wonder Woman using lethal force against a villain in the scenario that they set up. There were no other options available to her, so that's what needed to be done. Nice characterization for Diana that respects her warrior heritage. On the other hand, I very much prefer the original portrayal of Maxwell Lord as a flawed but fundamentally good guy. Thus I would have preferred it if they used someone other than Max for that scenario. Given that they did use Max, I'd retcon it so that he's back to his original portrayal, using one of the innumerable ways of retconning such things (it was a robot, a clone, a time clone, a Durlan, he was possessed, he was influenced by Psycho Pirate, we've rebooted the timeline--something! They've got loads of options!).
I know this is pretty tertiary to the comics, but I think it could be interesting to look at that time when Wonder Woman was an honorary UN Ambassador for the Empowerment of When and Girls (irl) and it was almost immediately redacted. The way here history and perception play into the story are really fascinating.
DC's omniverse annoys me. It seems like they're basically saying they can't be bothered to track a canon timeline so everything is canon. Don't think about it.
Max Lord controlling Superman was worse than having access to all the nuclear weapons on the planet. The fact that anyone thinks Wonder Woman wasn't justified in ending an immediate threat to the entire universe is utterly baffling.
The problem with moments like this is that if it involves a smaller character (like Max), their character ends up becoming defined by that scene because it became more iconic than the character himself. Max can't go back to being a good guy because thanks to the neck snapping scene, what people think when they think of Max is "psychic business Wonder Woman villain" and comics ALWAYS shift to fit the public perception of a character. He's stuck.
Regarding whether or not I approve of the neck snap I'll just say this, it's still the only time I can remember actually cheering when I read a comic book panel. I was a big fan of the JLI and even enjoyed Max's character in it, but being so familiar with him makes me sure that killing him was, at that point in time and within that storyline, the only viable solution. I'm just glad there was a character there with the balls to do the job.
The Joker once tried to screw with Wonder Woman, and she scared him so bad he never barked up her tree by himself again. The Max Lord confrontation was within my understanding of Diana's nuance. Points about Max himself well received, thanks. I loved 80s JL, but that was a while back, and those were some deep dive panels. I started reading Wondy in '87, for my dime, the New 52 Wonder Woman was the best run of her book. She looked like a Greek vase painting, and the plot was Game of Thrones on Olympus. It's my personal favorite lens on Diana. Fans who got alienated by the origin change are going to have to talk to a fan who didn't live out this exact scenario except that in my case it was an Irish fellow, and not Zeus. -Wonder Bastard
I’ve read that comic that happened in, and I read it in a book store back when it was on sale then and it didn’t bother me; Wonder Woman is a warrior and she was trained to kill since she was a kid, so I wasn’t against it though, and what max did to Superman was purely evil anyway, so he:(maxwell), brought it on himself, and Happy New Year to you and yours Sasha🎉🎊.!
It is a bit absurd considering that in Identity Crisis, they showed that the JLA was brainwashing villains for years but here, the only way to deal with a psychic controlling Superman was to kill him. Couldn't J'onn just shut Lord's brain off? How about a technological solution that shuts down Lord's powers? Also, couldn't the lasso of truth compel Superman to see what is real and what is not?
I always thought of Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman as martial artists. Their philosophy being that they will do whatever they can not to take a life but they will if that is the only way to save the day. In the story you mentioned Sasha, Wonder Woman was right. And now for some Casually Comics Sasha jokes because this is my favorite channel! What is Sasha's favorite cereal? Rice Krispies. Why? Because Sasha likes the neck snap, krackel, and pop! Also, when Sasha edits her vids, she doesn't use jump cuts, she uses neck snaps! Ha ha ha!
I just can not wrap my head around Batman holding a grudge toward Wonder Woman for killing Max Lord and saving Superman. Sure, maybe even Superman himself would be miffed, but not Batman. Seriously, did Batman actually verbally reprimand WW over this?
It's even more stupid when you realise when Wonder Woman began fighting Superman it was to protect him. He was literally about to be killed and he has the gall to get on her case. This is why his no killing rule should selectively be used and not a major recurring part of his character.
@@River-pg1uk Fair enough, I suppose the Trinity at DC should be able to win without taking a life intentionally. The Batman of my youth did not kill, but would not be overly concerned if someone else did kill in an extreme case.
Personally, I don't mind the neck snap, but I think there was another way... Diana could've used the lasso to compell Maxwell to leave Clark alone forever (then maybe stick a power dampner on him). This could still lead to some issues with the Trinity, especially with Bruce, since this happened very close to Identity Crisis and the mind wipe reveal (though if I were in charge, Identity Crisis would never have happened).
Thank you for this video. My earliest memory of Wonder Woman was on tv played by Linda Carter and then in the superfriends. I agree with the snap. I'm fine with WW making the decision to kill. I am only half okay with the consequences; b/c being made into an outcast for making a hard decision is the worst. Someone in that group has to do it. I don't know much about Maxwell Lord's character, so I'm on the fence about his character developments pro and cons. Changing characters to fit the story is something that writers/creators do all the time. I am all for a healthy debate about that. Again thanks for the video
While i agree that changing characters to fit a story is a comon practice, i think its important to consider if the story fits the character in the first place. The example of the video speaks to that. "The snap" would have been just as polemic with any of the trinity, but it only sort of works for Diana (even trought i dont really like it). Not only because she literally wields the truth in her hands, its because she is the only one you can use her backstory to argue for it without completely go against how they been portrayed for decades. In the other end of the coin, but in the same story, the changes to Max in-world make no sense in various ways. Even if you ignore the whole "he was a robot" thing, Max thought process was showed several times during the JLU run. We were shown his mind, past and motivations and none of it fits with the whole "evil mastermind" bullcrap. And when you have to retcon a character past and personality out of existence for it to fit with your story, you should know the character wasnt for the story. Its specially absurd when one notes that he was previously turn into a villain in a much more natural manner (well, "natural"). So maybe a passionate writer could make it work, even if it dosent make sense. But when not even the writer cares, and only wants to tell the story regarless of the character used, it cant really work. I mean, maybe it can for others but, for me, thats just bad witing.
I wonder if one of the reasons they didn’t do the neck snap WW84 was because of Man of Steel. We already say Clark do it to Zod and people weren’t happy about that and if Diana had done it to Max in the movie it might have been seen as retreading something we already saw a hero do in film.
I think it is just plain realistic, in reality you can't always let villains live as the recidivism rate is far to high and other innocent lives are lost. So for that neck snap I give 4 snaps in a "w" formation
Wonder Woman: Neck Snap
Superman: Neck Snap
Batman: Trapping someone in the sewers and leaving them to starve to death
Superman's first murder in the comics (post-Crisis) was exposing three Kryptonian criminals to green kryptonite radiation until they died after they destoryed an alternate Earth and threatened to do the same to Superman's Earth.
@@DrPluton Man of Steel made Superman snapping Zod's neck the only death the public cares about...
Seems legit.
Bruce sounds like quite the hypocate.
@@DrPluton Superman killed way before that. The first year of his existence, he killed a few henchmen. It’s sort of glossed over.
Wonder woman: Oh great Hera I snapped Maxwell's neck.
Also Wonder woman: So anyway.....
Quote from Wonder Woman herself.
"Don't kill if you can wound, don't wound if you can subdue, don't subdue if you can passify, and don't raise a hand at all until you first extended it." She went through all the options already, Max wasn't going to stop, she did what she had to.
This was further gone into in Manhunter Vol 3 Issue 29, where Kate Spencer, AKA Manhunter, AKA the best lawyer in the DC Universe, takes up this case to defend Wonder Woman. Even Superman admits that it was the right call.
Quotes! Yas!!
@@CasuallyComics Thanks! Love your channel by the way! And your hair!
Shout out to whoever wrote that story. Is it just me, or is the main reason to be a comic writer to fix the actions of some dumbass boomer?
@@PosthumanHeresy yes
@Nnamdi Uyalor,Jr you are probably right but max could have taken back control of Superman at any moment and it highly unlikely that Wonder Woman could go other round with Superman
I do agree with Diana's quote in blackest night, her basically saying "Had to, didn't like it".
The thing that bugs me about the neck snap is that future writers treated the move as Diana's default modus operandi and not one informed by desperation...
Good point
That’s a classic problem: Spider-Man’s power creep started from treating a moment of desperation as a default power level.
The neck snap in the context of your thoughts remind me of exactly what is wrong in comics today. Feminists (in comics) are parodies of stereotypes. They have to be just as tough, unfeeling, etc as >insert name here< (Batman, Superman, etc). The writers take one view of the character and expand that view (the stereotype) to consume the entire character. When this is layered with Politics, biases, inconsistencies, etc - it can create a distortion so huge that the character alienates the audience. I believe that is what is happening to comics today. Comics need to get back to basics - heroics. The "Gritty" age needs to come to a close - and if heroes aren't found here - the audience will move along to create them else where.
The idea that Wonder Woman didn't have a popular reoccurring rogue's gallery like Batman is because she kills them all was actually implied to be canon for awhile.
@@lindyxmjh4589 I think its because DC never cared about her and her villains, unlike Batman. Because if I remember correctly, she never killed Minerva's Cheetah, or Giganta, or Silver Swan. It's just recently that they're trying to focus more on her rogue's gallery and i think that's perfect
I believe this will be head turning video about Wonder Woman and Maxwell Lord
I get it😂
Ashdjhfijn
I’m dying lmao
🤣🤣🤣
You did it, you made the joke we all wanted to make, we can all go home now!
Well played
It's interesting that WW killing Lord is seen as more controversial and darker than when John Byrne had Superman execute a permanently poweless Zod.
Mani S right?! It proves that Superman was a hypocrite for shunning WW for killing Max.
@@briannalee1998 I agree with you. Superman executing Zod is rarely discussed by fans.
My guess? I think because 1) it was the Zod of an alternate universe who only appeared for that one story so it wasn't the "real" Zod and 2) Max Lord was a popular supporting character who got heel turned then killed. So JLI fans lose a character they liked twice over.
If Wonder Woman had killed say, the Pre-Crisis Cheetah it would not have been as controversial. Fans would still have the current version.
@@manis1551 Because fans know that if it were then "Superman doesn't kill" would be exposed for the lie it truly is.
Maxwell Lord from the 80s: Literally just wants the world to be a better place and make heroes cool
Some interviewer: “what a scumbag”
I'm totally down for Diana. I mean when people push you so far. Sometimes ....you just ..... snap .
I'm pro neck snap. I think it adds some darn fine layers to Diana's character. First and foremost, Diana will do what's right. She's not bound by laws that benefit scumbags like Lex Luthor and Simon Stagg. If Diana has to make a hard call, she'll make the call and own it. This makes her a contrast to Batman and Superman, especially Batman who has an almost psychotic need to not kill. Wonder Woman makes the hard choices, but only as a last resort, and I think that makes for not just a strong woman, but a strong person.
Incorrigible King I agree except I wish she showed more remorse
@@briannalee1998 Agreed. Doing the hard thing doesn't mean turning off emotions.
This point is doubled down in dark knights death metal.
I mean yeah that’s right She’s part of a warrior culture and would definitely snap a dudes neck.
I agree, but honestly the Batman no kill rule and no kill code is a newer invention. Golden Age Batman literally snapped necks, which is why only until silver age, bronze, and most recently did we get all of the strictures with The Bat and no killing. Although DC, and comics in general retcons a lot, I still find it interesting, and compelling how there’s been a total erasure that many prominent superheros did kill at one point.
You taunt us by discussing Wonder Woman adversary Maxwell Lord while wearing attire that clearly shouts Wonder Woman adversary the Cheetah!
Batman: "I'm Batman."
Wonder Woman: "I'm Wonder Woman!"
Batman: "Oh, snap!"
Was Wonder Woman right to do it? Yes.
Was this a moment of strength for her? Her entire battle with possessed Supes was badass. The snap was the thrilling conclusion.
Were there other options? Yes, but there wasn't enough time to get Zatanna and Martian Manhunter down there to help.
Was the fall out justified? No.
Should we move on? Yes. Please.
So, I'm in the Pro-Neck Snap room, BUT, I think the fallout and Diana's reaction was woefully mishandled. She should have been upset about the fact that she was forced to kill him, and Batman and Superman were acting really out of character. Iirc, they weren't originally supposed to, with Batman being more understanding.
Diana wasn't exactly dancing when she killed Max. Also, Superman and Batman's own sins should have been made public as well.
What if that bit where Superman "sees no rage" in her eyes ended with Superman leaving, only for the caption box to say something like "But Superman didn't look deep enough" and there's this teensy tear in Wonder Woman's eye, like deep down she's in tears but she's consciously telling herself "I did what I had to do" so hard it won't come out?
@@SuperSongbird21 that would help
"I'm arguing with an interview from the past" relatable content
Wonder Woman is a big fan of the song Rhythm is a Dancer, by the group SNAP!
But seriously, glad she stuck by her choice, but going forward, DC was like, "Well, swords, shields, greek armor and killing is her main personality now". You know, kinda surprised that media hasn't even alluded to Max's death, even in WW84 as a idea.
(A Kirk reference and no Chris Pine Steve Trevor joke? The restraint or a slip of the mind? lol)
Agreed. Diana made the right choice within the story, but I dislike it as part of DC’s continuous push to give Wonder Woman a more hardened, Xena-like persona.
Yeah, that's what I liked about WW84 because Max Lord wasn't this irredeemable psycopath like in the comics, therefor his actions didn't require Wonder Woman to straight up kill him
@@tinymxnticoreI give it a pass on that, because that issue and subsequent ones actually handle her well. If anything, I see it as a good example of how to handle making Diana extremely compassionate but not naive and able to make a hard choice when push comes to shove. She is portrayed just the same otherwise. The clusterfuck of mishandlings comes after that, which didn't have to happen and didn't flow naturally from this story either. Also the general circumstances of DC just turning everything towards emo nihilist edge lord territory "so mature, grim and dark" nonsense. And don't get me started on the unstoppable superman dickriding shit DC is always on about.
If anything, it was one of the last times she was portrayed decently for a while considering what was happening around in DC and about to come. So it definitely gets a pass from me for that.
@@louisvictor3473It’s interesting how what follows an event often colors how the event itself is perceived...like how The Force Awakens was widely acclaimed before TLJ and TRoS, or the eighth season of Game of Thrones.
@@tinymxnticore True. Myself included. My previous position (good concept, terrible execution all around) came from the numerous recaps of the event later (in and out of comics), which I only realized because I reread the issues after this video to check my memory, and my memory wasn't even from the issue(s) anymore.
Thantos: I’ll show you a dramatic snap.
Wonder Woman: Hold my lasso, I’ll show you a true snap.
Are you sure you meant Thanatos? He was the greek god of death.
If Diana had done this in the move when he showed up, it would have save us from *so many* plot holes and about an hour of unnecessary runtime.
They always bring up the neck snap, but never the crackle and pop. 💥
They didn't want people to think she was a cereal killer.
Confession time: I'm an idiot. Up until these last two Lord videos, I'd always viewed the neck snap as Max using his powers to make WW do it. Totally forgot she was using the lasso of truth.
In a way, he was using his powers to make her do it. Not by means of controlling her mind, but of controlling her options via superman.
@@louisvictor3473 Thanks for the attempted save! But, nah. I'm an idiot!
@@louisvictor3473 He was telling WW how she can stop him to control Superman. It could be see as you point it out, but Max was under the influence of the lasso too.
@@x2194306 But Max knew about the lasso and that was a very forseeable scenario. So it is almost certain that he arranged things so even the lasso played into his plan.
Max: Hey Wonder Woman, what time is it?
Wonder Woman: Oh, it half past SNAPPING YO NECK!
Maxwell technically wanted that he won
@@greenrandall143 He made is so he would win no matter what happened, but I don't think he wanted to die He just cared about winning more than his own life.
*"Oh Snap"* I understood that reference 😉
DC 2011: This is too complicated, streamline things
DC 2021: EVERY STORY EVER IS CANON!
(I love the Omniverse, to be clear, but still)
Shouldn't that first year be 1985, when they wiped out all but one Earth, putting all the heroes on it. But having to retcon most of Infnity.
@@toddnolastname4485 I mean, if I was doing a full list I'd also include all the times between Crisis and the New 52 were they sort of restored the multiverse but not quite
Diana : Here Maxwell, allow me to adjust your spine for you
Maxwell: Thank you Wonder Woma-- *KRIK*
I do think there's this weird thing where it's like 'we want more morally complicated moments that make people think! No, not like that!'
I do like the idea of Wonder Woman having a desperate moment where she chooses to kill someone to save others, and has to deal with the fall out. But I also prefer good/morally ambiguous Max Lord over evil Max, and I hate how much this moment has come to define him.
Frankly my biggest problem with this arc was what they did to Maxwell Lord, I couldn't even recognize him any more.
I adore Rucka's run on Wonder Woman (or rather, both of them). I know he had intended to try to deal with the fallout himself, but was fired from the title immediately after the neck snap. I personally really like the way Marc Andreyko handled it in Manhunter, having Wonder Woman go on trial herself, and prove herself right.
I was fine with her doing that because it was necessary. She received no joy from doing it and only did it as a last resort. "You kill monsters," she said, and she was right.
Your love for the 52 mini series gives me life, I am so here for it. 52 was my 1st entrance into comics and it made me love Booster Gold and the Booster Gold series made me ship Boostle and this led me to the JLI, it all comes together in the end doesn't it 😀
This was an interesting history lesson :)
I'm glad that through the immediate reaction post neck-snap that Diana stood by what she did. 👌
Lillie: “I’m immune to hypnosis for the reason because Wonder Woman.”
It's because she was using the Lasso of Truth to stabilize her arm after Superman broke her wrist. She's definitely been mind controlled by Dr. Psycho before, so she's not immune.
And she has athenas sight makes her immune
What do Wonder Woman and Thanos have in common?
They both like snaps
What, the Dutch alcoholic beverage? 🤔😜
But probablt maxvell dont
They both got the booty
Your a little cruel ain't yah. Hehe
Diana isn't afraid to kill when necessary. I remember reading Wonder Woman #5 ("The Ares Assault!", June 1987) and my jaw dropping in awe as she hurled her tiara and cut Ares' son Deimos' head right off.
As a JLI fan, I find Max's turn pretty believable, since even at the beginning of his story, he was trying to murder his boss (that's before he found the sentient computer.) He walked the line pretty well. But IMO, they should drop the "snap" thing... as well as the connection between him and WW. It worked for a while, but before that, they barely knew each other. I've always felt that if Max is going to be a villain, he should be a JLI villain, as he was (sorta) in "Justice League: Generation Lost" during Brightest Day.
The Max in WW 1984 is VERY much an original 80s Max, IMO. Even though he wasn't 1) a successful businessman, 2) especially good at manipulating people, or 3) able to control minds (so, basically, not very Max-ish), I felt that everything he did was exactly what an original 80s Max would've done in his position.
And they could still make him go evil. Just have his son die due to superhero destruction, instead of his mom. Heck, make it be something that happened in "Man of Steel."
I loved reading "I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League". Thanks for the name drop of a really entertaining read.
I think what bugs me the most in debates about fictional events - be it the neck-snap of Lord by WW or the neck-snap of Zod by Clark in the Snyder film - is the argument that the hero "had no choice." First, we aren't talking about a retelling of a historic event, set in stone by ... you know, reality. We are talking about fabricated events in fiction created by writers who CHOSE to create the scenario. That being said, even the fabrication by writers ignores the very idea behind what it means to be a hero. We focus so much on flying and running at the speed of sound, the strength to lift mountains, incinerate stone with a glance and force truthful confessions by magic, that we miss the REAL super-powers that these heroes are supposed to have. Wonder Woman and Superman, for all their godlike abilities, embody a humanity and compassion that is equally superhuman. There is no such thing as not having a choice for a someone with that much power AND that much humanity. They would always find a way. Or, failing to do so, they would sacrifice THEMSELVES before sacrificing another. Superman died fighting Doomsday. Imagine if Diana had had responded to Lord: "No, I won't kill you. There is another way." And then turned and fought Clark to a standstill forcing Clark, in his delirium, to kill her. That snaps Clark out of Lord's spell, and Lord just doesn't have the power to overcome the grief and conviction inspired by the event.
For all the talk about Truth and Hope connected with these characters, the writers so easily forget about them when they want to.
I’m Pro-neck snap. I don’t like that it happened but I recognize that it was the only way she had time for. Diana had one option available and she had to do it quickly. As for the follow out of such a decision I find it to be very unfortunate. Her friends and family abandon her like she was a stranger.
The way WW keeps the exact same expression during the deed lol
I don’t know how you match outfits so well like it matches your wing and has cheetahs
So this is what happens when Phantom Stranger is running late...
This reminds me of One More Day. The writers want to set up a situation where the hero makes a hard choice because all other options are off the table, but don't do a good enough job ruling out the other options in a satisfactory way. Superman can be de-powered or otherwise rendered unable to cause mass harm a number of ways, phantom zone or red sunlight spring to mind. Beyond that, why is it that just because Martian Manhunter thinks he can't fix superman, that no other options are on the table. Max may be honest in his belief that they can't undo his hold on superman, but even if we grant that the lasso would prevent his arrogance from blinding him, its not like he's done intensice clinical trials of all the means of fixing psychic damage to a Kyrptobian available to the combined heroes of the justice league and all their allies.
Depowering Superman or locking him up in the Phantom Zone would be punishing him instead of Max. Not to mention, it doesn't stop Max from controlling someone else like he once did to Power Girl. The Martian Manhunter is a telepath, if anyone would have a good idea as to what would or wouldn't do permanent damage it was him.
This is not remotely in the same ball park as One More Day. Ingrained telepathic control is a lot more difficult to fix than a bullet wound.
@@cui8789 I meant those as temporary measures to provide time find a fix
"Wait!" Superman gargles past his ripped but healing throat. "Does the Phantom Zone still exist in this continuity? Because if it does, I have a plan!"
(I don't actually mind the neck snap, it can be a good way to layer distinctions in the Trinity for character purposes. But of course there were options.)
The best line in Infinite Crisis was from Batman "You haven't inspired anyone since you died."
She did own what she did, and I cannot fault her one bit.
I did like the return of the JLI with Max Lord as the big bad and making the world forget the JLI members.
"The best line in Infinite Crisis was from Batman "You haven't inspired anyone since you died." "
It was also the biggest lie.
That line also best describe how unlikable, corrupted, polluted and twisted Batman had become under Dan's rule.
Snapswell Lord. Just had to...🤣
Idk it felt very in-character for Diana to kill when there was no other option. She’s the one least likely to get caught up in the guilt of having done it and would continue being a hero afterwards despite it (don’t think I could say the same of Bruce & Clark.) It makes me wonder how many other times a hero has killed someone and what the fallout was? That’d be a very interesting playlist/series
Superman killed Zod and was so guilty he suffered nightmares and eventually went around sleep walking dressed up as Gangbuster and was beating the snot out of criminals.
And she's far older than the other two. She should have a very different perspective on the value of individual life.
@@lindyxmjh4589 That says more that Superman has a considerably fragile mental state rather than him being more moral than Diana.
@@cui8789 Maybe one interpretation, but I guess you could also interpret that Diana comes off as both narcissistic with her "I only did what I had to" stance and vain because the only reason she felt bad after was because people didn't like her anymore.
The neck snap was the right move, sometimes that's the only option there is. That's just me but I'm not inspired by heroes who only ever get to take the easy way out morally speaking. Joker should definitely get a neck snap too
I always remember Max as a scumbag. Not an outright villain, but not someone you could trust. He put the JLI together not just to do good, but to advance himself. He got Huntress on the team by using his powers to "persuade" her... so by mentally assaulting her to get her on the team. He had certain lines he wouldn't cross, but he was still willing to sink to some low depths.
Seeing him suddenly be all "Nyah! People with powers can't be trusted and must be brought to heel or destroyed! Nyah!" was garbage. It was just more of DC trying to show us how edgy and mature they were. Trying to please their aging and jaded fan base.
But did they think at all, that maybe taking their characters all down this "mature" and very "adult"path, that they were pushing away the new young readers that they were gonna need to keep their company going in a few years? I'd like to see some stats on DC readers and their age demographics.
Wonder Woman did what she had to, Maxwell Lord forced her hand, she did nothing wrong.
Well she did do something wrong but this is a situation your forced to choose the lesser evil.
Wonder Woman’s favorite fish? Snapper 🐟☺️
I loved that moment. It’s a reason why I love Diana so much. She’s a badass who’s not afraid to do what needs to be done.
I was just watching "The Watch" on BBCAmerica and they did something funny/ironic. While the heroes are killing off henchbeings trying to kill them, the henchers shout out things like, "He was a dad with 6 kids!" or "that was my wife!". I love seeing that killing has consequences, that even in silly stories with minor characters, they meant something to someone.
To quote one of my favorite superheroes
"Rot in Hell Max."
Im so glad you appreciate 52. I got the 4 paperback volumes on my shelf and just thinking of a good day to reread those and all of Infinite Crisis
You can’t just throw out that tease of the Trial of the Flash and walk away. We need a 24 part video series!
Yes! A playlist of Superhero Court case comics!!!
WW84 definitely sets up Diana as a protector, with some subtle shade against the Snyderverse orgins “I hate guns” so it makes sense that she would reach out to Max to appeal to his better nature
That isn't shade.
3:08 If it was Silver Age Lois instead of Post Crisis Lois she probably would have married Brainiac and Darkseid.
Lois Lane marries Brainiac 😍
&
Lois Lane marries Darkseid 🤩
Check out Mysteries of Love in Space #1. The cover shows love between Lois and Darkseid.
I really want to see a comic where Lois or possibly JImmy OIsen marries Darkseid, bonus points if Jimmy is dressed as Lois when he marries Darkseid.
Check out Mysteries of Love in Space #1. The cover shows love between Lois and Darkseid.
I always thought of Wonder Woman as someone who would kill an enemy, but only when all other options have been exhausted. In one arc she said she loves everyone. She loves her villains just as much as she loves her friends. It makes her a more tragic hero because she might be forced to not only kill someone she not only doesn't want to, but someone she loves. That's has to be hard for her. Weighing the duties to her world and her friends against the life of someone that matters to her. I haven't read every single run of Wonder Woman but I have read enough and I never read a comic where she took about to preserve all life like Batman or Superman. In one of the Spider-Man movies Green goblin said that's why you don't want to be a hero is because you never know when someone's going to present you with an impossible choice. Maxwell Lord did present her with an impossible choice, to save her friends or disappoint her friends. I think it would have been more poorly received if it were Batman who had to make that choice, but again Wonder woman is not tied down to the same moral code of non-lethal forces like Superman or Batman. And if we're nit picking Superman did technically kill Doomsday, yeah he killed himself doing it but no one blames him for killing Doomsday. I think a hero like Diana is someone who will do that to protect her friends but it's never her first option it's always her last option.
Something should be said about how this also gave birth to the meme that Wonder Woman hates necks. There's even a collage of all the times she was since depicted attacking necks in one form or another.
Almost 300 comments in four hours? That's breakneck speed!
It's pretty interesting the WW killed him. She's a beast sometimes. I LOLed at you arguing with the commentary from 2005. That's so relatable.
I’ve been collecting comics since the 70s.The problem with ongoing comics is that they cannot be innocent and complicated...because they are open ended intellectual properties of corporations.
Wonder Woman’s neck snapped worked because of the era in which it was written. She had even killed monsters in Geoge Perez runs, so she was known as a warrior.
DC purposely put their main heroes through the wringer. Just as the golden age of goofiness worked for its era..and bizarrely even the 60 Mod Wonder Wiman worked as well for its era.
Dan Didio was right when he said if the stakes aren’t high and real, the readers have no reason to care. The sad part is long time readers get into recognizing cycles of comics.
" long time readers get into recognizing cycles of comics."
This. So much this. I'd never watch day time soaps for the exact same reason.
Yes, if Giffin isn't sure it's a cheap shot, he won't kill them off. Also, I think the neck snap was the perfect realisation of Max's face-turn.
After killing max she regret nessecity not the action. damn pulled a kyoshi on maxvell
Underrated comment lol
I still remember that story from Sacrifice. Wonder Woman killing Max made sense. There was nothing else that could be done at the time and Max said himself he would keep coming, why risk it? He wasn't gonna stop.
She did the right thing.
In the story? Yes but metatextually the guys at dc at the time wanted her to kill max. Id say alot of what happened surrounding maxwell lord was about what dc wanted to do, rather than what made sense for the characters
@@megamonmon And how exactly is that any different from always 'finding another way'? Which is just as much editorial mandate as killing Maxwell Lord. Both are the creation of humans. Just like every story ever written.
Me: Settles down to watch a Lois relationship free video......
Sasha: 2:55 GOT'EM
Me: KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!!!
Look, I cry over Ted Kord's death whenever I read the Booster Gold arc. That's the only reason I'm pro my girl neck snapping him. I legitimately thought it was her reason for the longest time. Every time Max is adpated into anything my brain is like "neck snap him before he kills Ted!" The 84 version is a major disconnect in my brain. It's half "why didn't she snap his neck so he doesn't kill Ted Kord" and half "the lack of neck snap is a good direction for what this movie was going for".
The comments from Rucka remind me of JJ Abrams attitudes towards the original series of Star trek.
He thought the old series was just goofball and campy, but didn't bother to look at the content of the stories or the cultural significance.
Could max being a used car salesman, be a nod to cobra commander?
I love your channel ! It is always challenging and thought provoking. Death is an absolute last resort, never to be taken lightly or for granted. It not only changes you but other peoples perception of you as well. Which I think was your point all along ! This vid reminded me of the of the final act of "City on the edge of Forever" .
Are those cheetah designs on your arms & shoulders? KOOL!
I'm pro neck snap and I like that Superman and Batman didn't react well to it. it helps set her apart from them. I wasn't thrilled with Max being retconned, especially given that at one point Martian Manhunter had read his mind and verified that he was a good man.
“No verse puts baby in a corner” 😂😂😂
The way they keep dragging Maxwell Lord up against wonder Woman reminds me of Marvel's obsession with constantly throwing Rogue at Carol Danvers. Like, they're both adults and superheroes now, so why continually punish them for something Rogue did as a supervillainous teenager? Drop it already and move on!
And now I'm wondering if Kirk would hit on Diana, and if she'd be interested if she had the lasso on him.
Very interesting episode, Sasha.
You should discuss the controversy/discussion over Maximum Carnage and Spider-Man's inane refusal to kill Carnage even though Carnage was literally murdering everyone in New York. It's like how people argue that Batman should kill the Joker, but x1000. It was a wild time. I remember interesting discussions around Carnage back then.
It's important to remember that these comics teach you not to care about the villain's victims. Only the feelings of our 'heroes'. To the No Killing types; mass casualties might as well be faceless bots in a MMORPG. Once I started identifying with the victims on the ground; I came to hate most DC/Marvel heroes for their pretensions to sainthood.
In my head-cannon one day a spaceship will land in Metropolis and the Justice League will gather to investigate. When it opens Maxwell Lord in 1980s attire will step out, thanking Magna Kahn for the ride, his back to the outside. When he turns around the JLA will confront him and learn that Maxwell Lord has been in space all this time negotiating a contract for costume designs from Mr. Nebula and missed all the events since his Supperbuddies time, including Flashpoint, the NU52, Rebirth, and his apparent death. From there he sets out to convince his old team that he's back and he's the Maxwell Lord they knew and , um, loved(?) while trying to figure a scheme to get himself back on top. This is when he learns of the evil Max Lord and we, the readers, now can choose which one we want to believe is the "real" one.
So like how Superman did to General Zod in Man of Steel
I think the morally ambiguous version of Lord was better than the "generic evil businessman" one.
I have to watch this again because I have ADD and was distracted the entire video by the dual jaguars on Sash’s sweater. I’m both captivated by the feline fierceness and curious about the backstory on how the sweater came into being.
I never read all the JLI run, but I read a bunch of issues back in the day (the late 90s, waaay before Sacrifice) and I always felt Max was hiding something. Obviously what they did with him in Countdown to IC was a bit too much, but him turning a villain didn't felt thaaat wrong (to me).
But the snap... gosh. There's always a way, It really was too much, and Diana reacted weird. If she at least would had knelt and cried like Superman in the Man of Steel movie... But no, she was cold as f***.
Anyways, I'm a great fan of that era (Identity Crisis to 52 and beyond). Despite all its wrongness hahaha
One of your best videos ;)
I love how invested you are in whatever happened years ago. You are so fun to watch.
My thoughts? It's . . . complicated. On the one hand, I don't mind Wonder Woman using lethal force against a villain in the scenario that they set up. There were no other options available to her, so that's what needed to be done. Nice characterization for Diana that respects her warrior heritage. On the other hand, I very much prefer the original portrayal of Maxwell Lord as a flawed but fundamentally good guy. Thus I would have preferred it if they used someone other than Max for that scenario. Given that they did use Max, I'd retcon it so that he's back to his original portrayal, using one of the innumerable ways of retconning such things (it was a robot, a clone, a time clone, a Durlan, he was possessed, he was influenced by Psycho Pirate, we've rebooted the timeline--something! They've got loads of options!).
I know this is pretty tertiary to the comics, but I think it could be interesting to look at that time when Wonder Woman was an honorary UN Ambassador for the Empowerment of When and Girls (irl) and it was almost immediately redacted. The way here history and perception play into the story are really fascinating.
if Pedro wished blue beetle back, it would have made the record skip
I was waiting excitedly for you to cover this. Its one of my fav comic book stories and wished a certain movie did it
DC's omniverse annoys me. It seems like they're basically saying they can't be bothered to track a canon timeline so everything is canon. Don't think about it.
Max Lord controlling Superman was worse than having access to all the nuclear weapons on the planet. The fact that anyone thinks Wonder Woman wasn't justified in ending an immediate threat to the entire universe is utterly baffling.
The problem with moments like this is that if it involves a smaller character (like Max), their character ends up becoming defined by that scene because it became more iconic than the character himself.
Max can't go back to being a good guy because thanks to the neck snapping scene, what people think when they think of Max is "psychic business Wonder Woman villain" and comics ALWAYS shift to fit the public perception of a character. He's stuck.
She made sure that Ted’s dying curse, “Rot in hell, Max.” wasn’t empty.
Regarding whether or not I approve of the neck snap I'll just say this, it's still the only time I can remember actually cheering when I read a comic book panel. I was a big fan of the JLI and even enjoyed Max's character in it, but being so familiar with him makes me sure that killing him was, at that point in time and within that storyline, the only viable solution. I'm just glad there was a character there with the balls to do the job.
Like you said, "not caring is always an option."
The Joker once tried to screw with Wonder Woman, and she scared him so bad he never barked up her tree by himself again. The Max Lord confrontation was within my understanding of Diana's nuance. Points about Max himself well received, thanks. I loved 80s JL, but that was a while back, and those were some deep dive panels.
I started reading Wondy in '87, for my dime, the New 52 Wonder Woman was the best run of her book. She looked like a Greek vase painting, and the plot was Game of Thrones on Olympus. It's my personal favorite lens on Diana. Fans who got alienated by the origin change are going to have to talk to a fan who didn't live out this exact scenario except that in my case it was an Irish fellow, and not Zeus.
-Wonder Bastard
I’ve read that comic that happened in, and I read it in a book store back when it was on sale then and it didn’t bother me; Wonder Woman is a warrior and she was trained to kill since she was a kid, so I wasn’t against it though, and what max did to Superman was purely evil anyway, so he:(maxwell), brought it on himself, and Happy New Year to you and yours Sasha🎉🎊.!
It is a bit absurd considering that in Identity Crisis, they showed that the JLA was brainwashing villains for years but here, the only way to deal with a psychic controlling Superman was to kill him. Couldn't J'onn just shut Lord's brain off? How about a technological solution that shuts down Lord's powers? Also, couldn't the lasso of truth compel Superman to see what is real and what is not?
I always thought of Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman as martial artists. Their philosophy being that they will do whatever they can not to take a life but they will if that is the only way to save the day. In the story you mentioned Sasha, Wonder Woman was right. And now for some Casually Comics Sasha jokes because this is my favorite channel! What is Sasha's favorite cereal? Rice Krispies. Why? Because Sasha likes the neck snap, krackel, and pop! Also, when Sasha edits her vids, she doesn't use jump cuts, she uses neck snaps! Ha ha ha!
I just can not wrap my head around Batman holding a grudge toward Wonder Woman for killing Max Lord and saving Superman. Sure, maybe even Superman himself would be miffed, but not Batman.
Seriously, did Batman actually verbally reprimand WW over this?
R C yes he did
It's even more stupid when you realise when Wonder Woman began fighting Superman it was to protect him. He was literally about to be killed and he has the gall to get on her case. This is why his no killing rule should selectively be used and not a major recurring part of his character.
Well yes batman is the one in the trio with the no killing rule so yeah He would
@@River-pg1uk Fair enough, I suppose the Trinity at DC should be able to win without taking a life intentionally. The Batman of my youth did not kill, but would not be overly concerned if someone else did kill in an extreme case.
Batman has issues. That's part of the character.
Personally, I don't mind the neck snap, but I think there was another way... Diana could've used the lasso to compell Maxwell to leave Clark alone forever (then maybe stick a power dampner on him). This could still lead to some issues with the Trinity, especially with Bruce, since this happened very close to Identity Crisis and the mind wipe reveal (though if I were in charge, Identity Crisis would never have happened).
Thank you for this video. My earliest memory of Wonder Woman was on tv played by Linda Carter and then in the superfriends. I agree with the snap. I'm fine with WW making the decision to kill. I am only half okay with the consequences; b/c being made into an outcast for making a hard decision is the worst. Someone in that group has to do it. I don't know much about Maxwell Lord's character, so I'm on the fence about his character developments pro and cons. Changing characters to fit the story is something that writers/creators do all the time. I am all for a healthy debate about that. Again thanks for the video
While i agree that changing characters to fit a story is a comon practice, i think its important to consider if the story fits the character in the first place. The example of the video speaks to that. "The snap" would have been just as polemic with any of the trinity, but it only sort of works for Diana (even trought i dont really like it). Not only because she literally wields the truth in her hands, its because she is the only one you can use her backstory to argue for it without completely go against how they been portrayed for decades.
In the other end of the coin, but in the same story, the changes to Max in-world make no sense in various ways. Even if you ignore the whole "he was a robot" thing, Max thought process was showed several times during the JLU run. We were shown his mind, past and motivations and none of it fits with the whole "evil mastermind" bullcrap. And when you have to retcon a character past and personality out of existence for it to fit with your story, you should know the character wasnt for the story. Its specially absurd when one notes that he was previously turn into a villain in a much more natural manner (well, "natural").
So maybe a passionate writer could make it work, even if it dosent make sense. But when not even the writer cares, and only wants to tell the story regarless of the character used, it cant really work. I mean, maybe it can for others but, for me, thats just bad witing.
I wonder if one of the reasons they didn’t do the neck snap WW84 was because of Man of Steel.
We already say Clark do it to Zod and people weren’t happy about that and if Diana had done it to Max in the movie it might have been seen as retreading something we already saw a hero do in film.
I think it is just plain realistic, in reality you can't always let villains live as the recidivism rate is far to high and other innocent lives are lost. So for that neck snap I give 4 snaps in a "w" formation