I purchased this bike despite the review. I am 6' tall, long torso, short legs. The grande bike fits perfect, and rides great. I did change tires for summer. Bike came with 170 cranks. 32 pounds 8 ounces with spare tube, bottle cages, and first aid kit. No drivetrain issues. No wood chopping. I think you had personal fit, and trail fit issues. Your drivetrain issue just added to the experience. I woods ride in the PNW. Straight up the logging road, and out/down through the woods. I am 51 years old, and a little careful. No stunts or tricks, except when I make a poor line choice. I wish I had this to maraude around on 30+ years ago. This bike solved every issue I had with any previous hardtail. Like you always say. Where, how you ride, and fit. Keep up the good work!
I really appreciate your honest reviews. Please keep doing this, your honest review. About the chain falling when back pedaling, it might no be fault of the drivetrain itself, but the way the frame was designed and the chain line came for you out of the box/factory. I’m not defending Shimano or Sram, but chain falling when back pedaling is a chainline problem, with might be a design problem. Note that some cranks have some offset chain rings, (standard, boost, super boost, 0mm offset, 3mm offset and 6mm offset). When you replace the crankset/chainring, notice if there will be any difference.
This why your channel is so special!!! Instead of giving up and giving a basic review and saying the bike 🚲 is not worth the buy or ride because your having difficulty feeling it out and don’t like the way it rides. Your going to make some tweaks feel it out then give a honest review, for the viewers!!!! Unbiased and honest thanks Steve!!!! 💪💪💪💪👍👍👍👍
Solid. I had doubts about this bike based on geo. Three things: 1) love that the Evil Wreckoning length comparison. Such a bonus of this channel is that it’s never an ad and you can just do smart normal stuff to inform us. 2) length of crank vs. Seat angle is a compelling hypothesis. Keep going with that. 3) I need to order that riding shirt you had on. 😆
Hey Steve, your technique and format for bike reviews are the best on TH-cam or anywhere else. Getting your reviews in real time as you ride it with your emotional reaction makes the review process much more transparent and easier to understand. You also help define all the industry jargon that is out there. Here are 2 other mods that I think you should do while swapping out the cranks: 1. Elliptical chain ring to possibly help with the spinning, and 2. Eccentric bottom bracket with it pushed all the way rearward to shorten the leverage for lifting the front wheel up (manuals and wheelies). What do you think?
Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad people enjoy my format. Those are interesting mod suggestions. I'm reluctant to change too many things at once for fear of not knowing which mod contributed to the new ride feel. Great suggestions though!
Canyon Stoic Hardtail (New) is my vote for next test ride. Thanks for honest review of Marin El Roy. Look forward to full review of El Roy after changes.
@@hardtailparty I don't think the spec choices are that inspiring, especially at for the lower spec versions. Try and get your name on the list for a 2021 Ragley Big Al!
@@hardtailparty I have to agree with you there. As a very tall person (6'5"), I'm all too aware of how important stack height and reach are! I put a Chromag FU50 on my Big Al XL and it feels wonderful now!
Man, I really like Marin too but appreciate the honest review. I really wished Marin spec'd a 27.5 specific hardtail frame, similar to Chromag's lineup.
Keep in mind this isn't a review, it's just my impressions after the first ride. I feel like this bike deserves a chance to really show its greatness after a few tweaks. More to come on this bike. Check out the bobcat trail. They offer 27.5 for the smaller sizes and 29 for the bigger sizes.
An Assegai max grip on the rear has got to be like trying to roll through glue. I bet just getting a faster roller in the back will be a night and day difference
My friend had that come on his bike and it was awful. He almost got dropped on the climb first ride. Swapped to an Aggressor for a completely different ride. I like the Barzo trail on the back of my Transtion Throttle that is paired to a Agarro on the front. Did 30 miles yesterday with about half on road on a ride I usually use my gravel bike and I hardly noticed the extra drag.
They're a great tyre when it's wet, slippery and steep and you need all the grip you can get. But they're gonna be a boat anchor when it's not super steep.
Marin has a funny thing about putting the chunkiest rubber it can get on its MTBs. My Marin Alpine Trail 7 had Vee Tire Flow Snap 2.6 enduros front and back. Talk about biking through glue. Put a Dissector on and what a change.
Any thoughts on the Marin Team Marin? I'm contemplating on having it. I just do not know if Marin has a local supplier here in the Philippines so I can be able to acquire one.
Can't wait to hear your assessment after tweaking the bike. On paper it's a helluva enduro HT with crazy geo. Well done and looking forward to the follow up. Cheers.
Very interested to see how this turns out. We are Marin dealers, have been very impressed with so many of their bikes (just spent a week on the Alpine Trail Carbon and couldn't shut up about my love of that bike). I had an El Roy on order for a personal bike, had a chance to ride one briefly in the parking lot and was instantly thinking it wasn't what I was after... though, knowing the product guys at Marin and how on the ball they are I was still curious. It makes sense a radically different bike requires a different approach to riding it.
I won't complete the review until i truly know the bike and have a lot of experience in it. It's far more radical than 99% of riders will need or want.
When you trim the bars you get better reach so that should compensate the longer stem a little bit. Actually you have a very clever approach when you say that first ride doesn't count as a review because in some bikes it can take several rides to get that connection you are looking for.
It's got rave reviews in Britain but then it's probably used pretty much as a woods downhill rig. There's several small brands in the UK hitting this market
@@hardtailparty Not the case in the UK. They tested the Grande. Called it a winch and plummet bike. Cycle up a forestry road and then drop off the side.
Great video and not-review! I'm pretty sure you are onto something with the tires. When I first saw the El Roy in your video I immediately looked it up on the website and thought ... wtf ... DD casings and grippy compound? These things are really made to be shuttled. I've tried a DH tire in the back once on my HT to prevent flats, but it felt like a boat anchor. After few rides I couldn't wait to rip it off the wheel again. Looking forward to your mods and subsequent review!
I think the Honzo ESD is probably the most direct comparison to the El Roy and there are a couple of important geometry differences between them. The regular size El Roy has 15mm more reach and 18mm longer chain stays than the medium Honzo. That's significant. I'm curious to see where your mods take you, along with more appropriate trails! That's some treacherous chunk to climb on any bike, let alone a bike park ht! Awesome work dude. You're killing this game.
This video gave me a new appreciation for your channel; The technical knowledge of this initial analysis and its performance taught me things I wasn't aware of but suspected. Thanks partner.
The steep seat angle with with the long cranks is an interesting theory. With that much travel in the front, you're probably close to 80 deg when sagged out. When you foot is back and the crank arm is inline with the chainstay, the ball of your foot is probably behind you hip and the heal is way behind your butt. That's got to feel awkward. You're not keeping your feet under or in front of you.
Yep those 35mm stems can be twitchy... I never quite melded with mine this summer.... I may switch mine out for a 45mm with a bit more rise for next season. Funny story, but the second time I rode the bike, I swung up onto the saddle and the bar just flopped over catching me off guard and I just about bit it. Quite a blow to the pride to be caught out on the trail floundering about on your kick butt awsome new bike. Haha.
I have marin rift zone. Changed the heavy flow-tackee tires and the bike was transformed. I am inclined to think that the tires are the number 1 issue. DD assegai with max grip is a slug.
Great video man! Super interesting stuff. Yeah that Assegai in the rear is a HUGE factor why it’s so slow. I mean, even an Assegai in the front will slow it down a bit. I think a DHR2 in the front and Agressor in the rear is a perfect combo. I’ve always run DHR2s in the front and just switched to an Agressor in the rear and man what a difference. Also, an oval chainring might help with the “chopping” motion you described - not sure what your experience with those are. Great vid, excited to see the follow up video!
When you put new cranks on make sure it's a Hyperglide+ chain and chainring, and that the chain is the correct length according to Shimano's new guide. The backpedal issues could be that the KMC chain spec'd on this one doesn't engage the cassette properly, and it looks too long. Terrible that Marin is cutting corners by using incompatible chain/chainring for the new 12s Shimano DT
As a guitarist, this thing strikes me as akin to a Danelectro 12 string. Works perfectly for a few very specific purposes, but it'll be the rare person who gets this as their only bike.
Thanks Steve. I've been waiting for this as I'm in the market for a HT. I'd start with that rear tire. I've got a FS Marin that came with a Vee tire flow snap. The thing was an anchor. I put on a pair of Vittoria mascals. Made a world of difference. Have always enjoyed your logic and experience about campers and bikes. Keep it up and be safe.
I ride 2 hardtail's one is a light rigid SS and 1 is a heavy steel geared bike with a 130mm fork. I built my geared bike with 1x11 Shimano XT and a SunRace 46t cassette for one reason, reliability. I just can't imagine a gear dropping when back pedaling unless my derailer hanger was bent. I agree, it's over "tire'd". I have been running i35mm rims but with wide 29x 2.5 or 2.6" but less aggressive tread like the Teravail Ehline or the Maxxis Rekon's. I think the higher volume helps make this tire more aggressive but still climb well. Just my thoughts.
I really enjoy your videos about how geometry works and affect the handling for worse or better, well I just got 4 weeks ago a giant fathom 29 I don't gona tell you how great this bike is, looking forward to your review.
Sounds like the RD needs to be adjusted. I have the same issue on my Sram drivetrain but only on the 46t(I'm on a 10-46t sunrace cassette). I got the others to not do it, but 46t I may need to have a shop look at it.
take a look at your b tension screw, that should fix the sram issue. I've checked the hanger, chain length, and b-tension on this derailleur. I have no clue what the issue is, but it makes ratcheting impossible.
@@hardtailparty I did look at my b-tension, but nothing I did could solve that. Why I think a shop might diagnose it for me. In my case it takes like 3-4 turns backwards to drop it so no that bad. Shame the El Roy looked promising, hopefully tweaks can improve it.
@@mellissanash7517 It's the slowest bike I've ever ridden, but I think the rear tire is to blame. It's very heavy and grippy. I think with a few tweaks it'll get a lot faster.
@@hardtailparty Bottom bracket in line? As for steep seat angles, well we did that in Triathlon to use more of the same muscles as when running to avoid lactic acid pooling. But we spun higher cadences as we weren't using our glutes so much. I have a kmc chain on a sram cassette and on the stand it reverse spins fine on 435. Not fully built yet.
Thanks for this ! Been waiting and great for sharing your first impressions. I haven't had the mech issue at all on my Elroy , although mine came with SLX cassette and XT deraiileur. I've found the Elroy a beast. Straight out of the box on whatever I can throw at it so far, especially those tricky techy climbs (which i wasnt expecting) although it's a bit sluggish on the local pump track but I have a BMX for that :) Here in the UK the local trails are super, steep, muddy, rough and rooty and the Elroy eats it up . The DD Assegai's hold it down very well and up, but things might seem draggier when it gets drier, so might swap out for something faster in the summer. Horses for courses I guess. I'm looking forward to the full review . Cheers Steve
Hey Steve. Great channel. I had the same back pedaling issue when building and setting up a Specialized Epic with XX1 at the shop where I work. SRAM was supposed to be...or has recently addressed this with some reversed ramping. A couple other youtubers have mentioned it as well from both Shimano and SRAM. I'm guessing Shimanos not far behind with their fix...cuz they hate being behind. :) If you stand at the back and look at where the chain is deflecting...it's way forward due to the pie plate 51, even on a standard chainring position. Chains stay in better moods if their deflection point/curve is farther back closer to the axle, giving more accumulative link "slop" to aid in a longer more relaxed curve...and the chain staying put. I'm actually amazed these designers didn't think about backpedaling with all the different chainring offsets more thoroughly. It's pretty darn important even on easy peasy rolling terrain.
When i got my hello dave it had 2.6 vee tires super tacky ebike tyres. They were so heavy and had exactly the same experience. My first ride which was only 10miles actually made me feel unwell it was so draggy 😂. But after tyre swap it transformed the bike
I rode my Marin Team 2 (SLX cassette, XT DERAILLEUR) today on a techy/rocky climb. I had exactly the same problem, chain went off if you back pedal not even half turn.
Great review and interesting to hear your thoughts and theories. On the one hand you can’t learn about a bike just by its geo charts, but then a demo ride (without tweaking) will not do the job either... I understand your like for a tall stack, but wouldn’t that cause your front wheel to wonder when climbing? And then, lengthening the stem will cause a more hunching position?
Thanks for the review! I'm still waiting on my frameset. Having ridden a San Quentin for a few years I think the better choice as an aggessive hardtail for someone who pedals a lot is the San Quentin. It feels like the El Roy may be a better choice for the shuttle/park rider. And 175 cranks were a bad choice for sure.
I watched and enjoyed your El Roy videos a while ago. Yesterday, I biked in Marin County for the first time. It was so slippery! It had rained this week, but even the dry parts were slippery. No rear tire could have had too much traction. Maybe the tire choice is good for the location? However, there were a ton of tight switchbacks everywhere, so the super long wheelbase still seems like a questionable choice...
Narrower bars allow for more lateral movement of the bike under you which helps the rider compensate for turns and bumps on the trail. I'm 6'1" and always gravitate to 760mm bars for that sweet spot of "not too wide, not too narrow".
Looks like I’m not the only one who would like to see more about the shifting issue-frustrating! I thought you had good experiences with the same Deore 12 speed cassette on other bikes.
My XT derailleur used to do that, I re indexed them starting from scratch and its never done it again... sounds like the mech isn’t set up properly, just needs some tlc
Yup. I've checked hanger alignment, b tension, indexing. I can't figure it out. It's not like the chainstays are too short either. Is yours 12 speed or 11 speed?
@@hardtailparty 11 speed 11/46 cassette on 36t absoluteBLACK oval chainring. I figured you’d have checked absolutely everything, maybe it’s a flaw in the frame design... not very Marin I know, but bike builders don’t always get it right
Maybe it's the spacing of the chainring? or the KMC chain they put on it? This is the first time I've seen a bike specced with a sram drivetrain, but not a sram chain. I also wonder if the chainring is doing it?
@@michaelthorne1347 The bike is obviously too big for him with the technical all mountain riding he likes to do and honestly in general. The control is not there, he would be served better for a size down even though it doesn't exist. Just lack of limited sizing options as Marin made the El Roy ride well for 5'10 and up only. Our presenter on this "Regular" size is a doozy, no discredit to the host... It's the Mega Reach minister preaching to the LLS (long low slack) Choir in a cacophonic symphony of "Hallelujah"... We've reached the end of the road folks, with the cobbled deliverance of a 35mm stem. Can I hear an "Amen."
Tires should help . I run a maxis dhr2 ,2.3 exo budget tire through the rocks and have not had a puncture so it sounds like you may got to much tire for what you are doing . I put on 46 tooth cassette on my shimano 10 speed and it drops the gear in the 46 and the 42 cog. I believe that is do to the chain line angle and the way the cassette is designed and there maybe not allot you can do with that but i have had some improvement with indexing and adjusting the b screw . Its is a bit a bummer when you have to back pedal on a technical climb and drop the gear . I did a similar thing putting a shorter stem on a big bike as I like to ride some distance so it was more of a comfort factor and yes it does get a bit more twitchy and can pull up the front end but you learn to adjust your body position to make it work . I do get the chopping wood feeling pedaling out of my seat . The bike seems to ride like a budget bike which many times rides like having a boat anchor being towed behind you
I was hoping someone more informed than myself would bring this up. I thought the same, but I don't know what I'm talking about most of the time. Have you ever used an oval ring in a review, steve?
Hey , Steve, great honest video, you inspired me to look into more aggresive hardtails instead of xc bikes, so hopefully I ll pick a good one :) btw do you have plans to review merida big trail?
@@hardtailparty if you want to know, they told me, you are US based with mostly us and canadian viewers and since they do not sell bikes there, they dont plan to send it there. But hey, i am from europe, so hopefully soon you will be world based :)
Marin seems to really like putting slow rolling tires on their bikes, unfortunately. Some of their bikes have Vee Flow Snaps which are boat anchors as well. Very interested to see how this bike changes with different parts.
Maybe on top of having such a soft rear end your loosing kinetic energy. Sounds like aside from the gear change on reverse pedaling it’s all small adjustments that are hindering it. Your a cool dude with cool rigs. God bless.
Great video! It’s a really cool bike in my opinion, looks like it would be a ton of fun at a park. I am pretty curious about the issue you were having with the shimano deore 12 speed drivetrain, I’ve never had that issue and I’ve tried to make it do such a thing but it was unable to. It’s interesting how it’s happening to you and it’s not something I’ve heard of that drivetrain doing. What do you think caused it?
I think it's a quality control thing. 8/10 shimano drivetrains I've had in lately have had some sort of an issue. Interestly, the issue on one is unique and doesn't transfer to the other. This is the first time I've had this issue on a 12 speed shimano drivetrain. I've checked the hanger for straightness, adjusted b tension, checked chain length, I have no clue what it is.
@@hardtailparty I bet it's the KMC chain. I had similar problems with SRAM drivetrain and KMC chain. Try swapping the chain and see what happens. For some reason they just don't fit well with some setups.
EXCELENT point! This is the first bike I've seen speccd with a shimano 12 speed shifter and cassette, but a different brand chain. I'm betting that has a ton to do with it, as i haven't had this particular issue with other shimano 12 speed drivetrains.
@@nkmtb that would make perfect sense. I’m honestly not too sure why they are speccing the kmc chains when the shimano chains are better and the same price.
Great insights!! It would be interesting to find out why the El Roy feels so slow to you. Have you plans on reviewing the Stif Squatch? Also very modern and aggressive geometry but Stif claims it`s a very fast bike. And it comes with a 130mm fork, which seems to be to your liking!
Yeah, the ONLY thing I can think of regarding the slow rolling speed is the rear tire. The stif looks amazing. I've been trying to get one, but there's a line of other reviewers before me. It never hurts when my viewers shoot them an email saying how much they'd like to see me review one...
When you sit on the Roy and the fork sags about 30% which steepens the angles, it ends up with ~79.5* STA and ~64.5* HTA. That's an extremely steep STA. The Roy should have come with 75* STA so that when it sags, it ends up with ~76.5 STA. The Marin engineers screwed up the geo on the Marin Pine Mountain also by making the reach too short. I would put on a set of 2.4 EXO+ Maxxis Dissectors to shed some weight and improve rolling speed..
If it had come with a 75* sta, the distance to the bars would be way too far and they'd have to shorten the reach. It's been interesting seeing them push the envelope of geo. I've learned a lot from riding it
As with everything, too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing at some point. Steep seat tube, wide bars, slack head angle. I don't thing the chain dropping off the big ring when pedaling backwards is a mech issue. I think it's a chainline issue. Rarely do manufacturers get the chainring close enough to the tire.
I'm at a similar situation with my NS Eccentric. Even with a Michelin Wild Race'r Enduro in the rear it's just so hard to ride it with somewhat normal speed, even on tarmac where conditions don't really change. I look forward to hear what you find out. Is it the geometry that causes something weird here or am I just too fat and it's really the tire you currently have in the rear?
You could have gone with few more details though😂. Only bad thing about your reviews, they land usualy when I am in bed setting my alarm clock. And then I know I will miss these half an hour sleep tommorow.
The chainstays, have you looked at those? They are almost 2cm longer than the ESD's. What you say about the tyre sounds plausible, but the CS length may just have quite an effect
I had a bit similar issue when I was testing Honzo ESD earlier. On ups and downs it felt totally fine, but on flat, smooth terrain, pedalling from seat felt somewhat unnatural. Never experienced the same with any oldskool geometry bikes. Maybe it was the steep seat angle, as it puts you really forward on the bike and practically right above the bottom bracket. Moving saddle backwards seemed to help a bit, but somewhat compromised the cockpit length as well. It made me wonder if hardtails really need that steep static seat angles (77,5⁰ on Honzo ESD) as when the fork's sag has been adjusted, it will make it even steeper. Lack of real suspension means that that seat angle never slackens out from static position.
I actually really love steep seat angles, especially on the esd. But i also have steep climbs where it's beneficial. If you're mainly pedalling flat terrain, a steep seat angle isn't really needed. However, of you have a long reach, you need a steep seat angle to balance that's otherwise it'll feel way to long when seated.
I love your videos and how informative they are. You sold me on a Cotic Bfe Max which I am currently waiting for. That being said I feel many people will take this video to heart. This bike along with the Honzo and Growler are sold as they are specced and it's kinda sad that Marin seemed way off the beaten path with this build when it shares many parts with those other two bikes that got mostly great reviews. I do feel that the changes you are making to the Marin will improve the bike but that basically means anyone who buys the Marin will most likely have to make similar changes. And who is really going to spend the extra money to potentially make the Marin better when they could just buy the Honzo or slap a sweet fork on a Growler 40.
Price is up there at $999 for frame only option, pick up the Canfield, Stanton or Cotic for the same or less - different bikes, I know, but still. Does the frame have decent compliance? Know you'll probably never see one, but the newly announced Canyon Stoic looks interesting. They're finally getting on board with more modern geo with that and the new Spectral.
The shimano drivetrain problem is weird, I have the new shimano deore 12 speed, and it back pedals just fine all day long, no dropping up gears like this bike is doing. Maybe something else going on there don't know
Sounds like a bad chainline. I had an old Fisher hardtail 3 x 8 that was misaligned and no feasible way to get the crankset/chainrings futher inboard. Bad times.
I purchased this bike despite the review. I am 6' tall, long torso, short legs. The grande bike fits perfect, and rides great. I did change tires for summer. Bike came with 170 cranks. 32 pounds 8 ounces with spare tube, bottle cages, and first aid kit. No drivetrain issues. No wood chopping. I think you had personal fit, and trail fit issues. Your drivetrain issue just added to the experience. I woods ride in the PNW. Straight up the logging road, and out/down through the woods. I am 51 years old, and a little careful. No stunts or tricks, except when I make a poor line choice. I wish I had this to maraude around on 30+ years ago. This bike solved every issue I had with any previous hardtail. Like you always say. Where, how you ride, and fit. Keep up the good work!
I really appreciate your honest reviews. Please keep doing this, your honest review.
About the chain falling when back pedaling, it might no be fault of the drivetrain itself, but the way the frame was designed and the chain line came for you out of the box/factory. I’m not defending Shimano or Sram, but chain falling when back pedaling is a chainline problem, with might be a design problem. Note that some cranks have some offset chain rings, (standard, boost, super boost, 0mm offset, 3mm offset and 6mm offset).
When you replace the crankset/chainring, notice if there will be any difference.
i totally agree! my ESD does not do this
This why your channel is so special!!! Instead of giving up and giving a basic review and saying the bike 🚲 is not worth the buy or ride because your having difficulty feeling it out and don’t like the way it rides. Your going to make some tweaks feel it out then give a honest review, for the viewers!!!! Unbiased and honest thanks Steve!!!! 💪💪💪💪👍👍👍👍
Pedal back that jumps down, I had that problem too, I just lubed my rear hubs then the issue was gone.
Solid. I had doubts about this bike based on geo. Three things:
1) love that the Evil Wreckoning length comparison. Such a bonus of this channel is that it’s never an ad and you can just do smart normal stuff to inform us.
2) length of crank vs. Seat angle is a compelling hypothesis. Keep going with that.
3) I need to order that riding shirt you had on. 😆
Hey Steve, your technique and format for bike reviews are the best on TH-cam or anywhere else. Getting your reviews in real time as you ride it with your emotional reaction makes the review process much more transparent and easier to understand. You also help define all the industry jargon that is out there. Here are 2 other mods that I think you should do while swapping out the cranks: 1. Elliptical chain ring to possibly help with the spinning, and 2. Eccentric bottom bracket with it pushed all the way rearward to shorten the leverage for lifting the front wheel up (manuals and wheelies). What do you think?
Thanks for the kind words, I'm glad people enjoy my format.
Those are interesting mod suggestions. I'm reluctant to change too many things at once for fear of not knowing which mod contributed to the new ride feel. Great suggestions though!
Canyon Stoic Hardtail (New) is my vote for next test ride. Thanks for honest review of Marin El Roy. Look forward to full review of El Roy after changes.
Unfortunately all the stoics are spoken for by other reviewers. Maybe one day I'll be at the top of companies' lists for hardtail reviews.
@@hardtailparty I don't think the spec choices are that inspiring, especially at for the lower spec versions.
Try and get your name on the list for a 2021 Ragley Big Al!
@@hambo76 the geo looks off too on the stoic. Short reaches and tall seat tubes.
@@hardtailparty I have to agree with you there. As a very tall person (6'5"), I'm all too aware of how important stack height and reach are! I put a Chromag FU50 on my Big Al XL and it feels wonderful now!
@@hardtailparty bummer. You have a great audience for them. And you give honest feedback for us. Good combo. Keep up the great work.
Man, I really like Marin too but appreciate the honest review. I really wished Marin spec'd a 27.5 specific hardtail frame, similar to Chromag's lineup.
Keep in mind this isn't a review, it's just my impressions after the first ride. I feel like this bike deserves a chance to really show its greatness after a few tweaks. More to come on this bike.
Check out the bobcat trail. They offer 27.5 for the smaller sizes and 29 for the bigger sizes.
@@hardtailparty Got it... looking forward to the review.
You mean like the San quentin? That's a 27.5 hardtail
An Assegai max grip on the rear has got to be like trying to roll through glue. I bet just getting a faster roller in the back will be a night and day difference
100% agree. That's exactly what it feels like: trying to roll through glue. I could never get it up to speed.
My friend had that come on his bike and it was awful. He almost got dropped on the climb first ride. Swapped to an Aggressor for a completely different ride. I like the Barzo trail on the back of my Transtion Throttle that is paired to a Agarro on the front. Did 30 miles yesterday with about half on road on a ride I usually use my gravel bike and I hardly noticed the extra drag.
@@adanielweaver those vittoria tires are great. Mezcal and barzo on my xc bike and agarro front and rear on my trail bike. I’m very happy with them
They're a great tyre when it's wet, slippery and steep and you need all the grip you can get. But they're gonna be a boat anchor when it's not super steep.
Marin has a funny thing about putting the chunkiest rubber it can get on its MTBs. My Marin Alpine Trail 7 had Vee Tire Flow Snap 2.6 enduros front and back. Talk about biking through glue. Put a Dissector on and what a change.
Great video, very informative as allways, you should try the san quentin or the nukeproof scout, would be awsome
Any thoughts on the Marin Team Marin? I'm contemplating on having it. I just do not know if Marin has a local supplier here in the Philippines so I can be able to acquire one.
Can't wait to hear your assessment after tweaking the bike. On paper it's a helluva enduro HT with crazy geo. Well done and looking forward to the follow up. Cheers.
Very interested to see how this turns out. We are Marin dealers, have been very impressed with so many of their bikes (just spent a week on the Alpine Trail Carbon and couldn't shut up about my love of that bike). I had an El Roy on order for a personal bike, had a chance to ride one briefly in the parking lot and was instantly thinking it wasn't what I was after... though, knowing the product guys at Marin and how on the ball they are I was still curious. It makes sense a radically different bike requires a different approach to riding it.
I won't complete the review until i truly know the bike and have a lot of experience in it. It's far more radical than 99% of riders will need or want.
When you trim the bars you get better reach so that should compensate the longer stem a little bit.
Actually you have a very clever approach when you say that first ride doesn't count as a review because in some bikes it can take several rides to get that connection you are looking for.
It's got rave reviews in Britain but then it's probably used pretty much as a woods downhill rig. There's several small brands in the UK hitting this market
The reviews I've seen all had someone sizing down a size.
@@hardtailparty Not the case in the UK. They tested the Grande. Called it a winch and plummet bike. Cycle up a forestry road and then drop off the side.
Great video and not-review! I'm pretty sure you are onto something with the tires. When I first saw the El Roy in your video I immediately looked it up on the website and thought ... wtf ... DD casings and grippy compound? These things are really made to be shuttled. I've tried a DH tire in the back once on my HT to prevent flats, but it felt like a boat anchor. After few rides I couldn't wait to rip it off the wheel again. Looking forward to your mods and subsequent review!
Love the initial first ride review preview. I like that you also record your thoughts and intentions with the bike, it is really helpful.
What’s Cody’s frame? 3:18
I think the Honzo ESD is probably the most direct comparison to the El Roy and there are a couple of important geometry differences between them. The regular size El Roy has 15mm more reach and 18mm longer chain stays than the medium Honzo. That's significant. I'm curious to see where your mods take you, along with more appropriate trails! That's some treacherous chunk to climb on any bike, let alone a bike park ht!
Awesome work dude. You're killing this game.
This video gave me a new appreciation for your channel; The technical knowledge of this initial analysis and its performance taught me things I wasn't aware of but suspected. Thanks partner.
The steep seat angle with with the long cranks is an interesting theory. With that much travel in the front, you're probably close to 80 deg when sagged out. When you foot is back and the crank arm is inline with the chainstay, the ball of your foot is probably behind you hip and the heal is way behind your butt. That's got to feel awkward. You're not keeping your feet under or in front of you.
Yep those 35mm stems can be twitchy... I never quite melded with mine this summer.... I may switch mine out for a 45mm with a bit more rise for next season. Funny story, but the second time I rode the bike, I swung up onto the saddle and the bar just flopped over catching me off guard and I just about bit it. Quite a blow to the pride to be caught out on the trail floundering about on your kick butt awsome new bike. Haha.
Interested in your opinion when you make the changes ,keep up the great work
Loved this First Impressions!!! this has made me even MORE Intrigued about this bike. It has been in my sights mostly versus the Kona Honzo ESD.
The two bikes couldn't ride more different. It's pretty surprising.
I have marin rift zone. Changed the heavy flow-tackee tires and the bike was transformed. I am inclined to think that the tires are the number 1 issue. DD assegai with max grip is a slug.
Great video man! Super interesting stuff. Yeah that Assegai in the rear is a HUGE factor why it’s so slow. I mean, even an Assegai in the front will slow it down a bit. I think a DHR2 in the front and Agressor in the rear is a perfect combo. I’ve always run DHR2s in the front and just switched to an Agressor in the rear and man what a difference.
Also, an oval chainring might help with the “chopping” motion you described - not sure what your experience with those are.
Great vid, excited to see the follow up video!
Also, maybe switching to a 2.4 tire in the rear instead of the 2.5 will save a bit of weight and rolling resistance making it less sluggish too
@@kylerchumbley8835 i love the dhr2 or the assegai up front. They're my favorite front tire, along with a hr2.
I really enjoy this video...thanks for honesty man!
When you put new cranks on make sure it's a Hyperglide+ chain and chainring, and that the chain is the correct length according to Shimano's new guide. The backpedal issues could be that the KMC chain spec'd on this one doesn't engage the cassette properly, and it looks too long.
Terrible that Marin is cutting corners by using incompatible chain/chainring for the new 12s Shimano DT
As a guitarist, this thing strikes me as akin to a Danelectro 12 string. Works perfectly for a few very specific purposes, but it'll be the rare person who gets this as their only bike.
Always enjoy your videos. You are like the wine taster for hardtails. Thanks!
Thanks Steve. I've been waiting for this as I'm in the market for a HT.
I'd start with that rear tire. I've got a FS Marin that came with a Vee tire flow snap. The thing was an anchor. I put on a pair of Vittoria mascals. Made a world of difference.
Have always enjoyed your logic and experience about campers and bikes. Keep it up and be safe.
I ride 2 hardtail's one is a light rigid SS and 1 is a heavy steel geared bike with a 130mm fork. I built my geared bike with 1x11 Shimano XT and a SunRace 46t cassette for one reason, reliability. I just can't imagine a gear dropping when back pedaling unless my derailer hanger was bent.
I agree, it's over "tire'd". I have been running i35mm rims but with wide 29x 2.5 or 2.6" but less aggressive tread like the Teravail Ehline or the Maxxis Rekon's. I think the higher volume helps make this tire more aggressive but still climb well. Just my thoughts.
Nice first look. I agree about the wheelbase too
Love the honesty and logic used in the reviews. Keep up the good work!
I think it's the assegai in the rear. Swap it with dhr2 would be nice or any fast rolling tire you like.
I don't find dhr2s to be much faster rolling than an assegai, but i do believe a lot of it is that rear tire.
Looking forward to the new setup of the Marin El Roy
I really enjoy your videos about how geometry works and affect the handling for worse or better, well I just got 4 weeks ago a giant fathom 29 I don't gona tell you how great this bike is, looking forward to your review.
Sounds like the RD needs to be adjusted. I have the same issue on my Sram drivetrain but only on the 46t(I'm on a 10-46t sunrace cassette). I got the others to not do it, but 46t I may need to have a shop look at it.
take a look at your b tension screw, that should fix the sram issue.
I've checked the hanger, chain length, and b-tension on this derailleur. I have no clue what the issue is, but it makes ratcheting impossible.
@@hardtailparty I did look at my b-tension, but nothing I did could solve that. Why I think a shop might diagnose it for me. In my case it takes like 3-4 turns backwards to drop it so no that bad. Shame the El Roy looked promising, hopefully tweaks can improve it.
would you say this is slower than the Pine Mountain?
@@mellissanash7517 It's the slowest bike I've ever ridden, but I think the rear tire is to blame. It's very heavy and grippy. I think with a few tweaks it'll get a lot faster.
@@hardtailparty Bottom bracket in line? As for steep seat angles, well we did that in Triathlon to use more of the same muscles as when running to avoid lactic acid pooling. But we spun higher cadences as we weren't using our glutes so much.
I have a kmc chain on a sram cassette and on the stand it reverse spins fine on 435. Not fully built yet.
Thanks for this ! Been waiting and great for sharing your first impressions. I haven't had the mech issue at all on my Elroy , although mine came with SLX cassette and XT deraiileur. I've found the Elroy a beast. Straight out of the box on whatever I can throw at it so far, especially those tricky techy climbs (which i wasnt expecting) although it's a bit sluggish on the local pump track but I have a BMX for that :)
Here in the UK the local trails are super, steep, muddy, rough and rooty and the Elroy eats it up . The DD Assegai's hold it down very well and up, but things might seem draggier when it gets drier, so might swap out for something faster in the summer. Horses for courses I guess. I'm looking forward to the full review . Cheers Steve
Does your elroy have a kmc chain or a shimano chain?
@@hardtailparty KMC 12x
Hey Steve. Great channel. I had the same back pedaling issue when building and setting up a Specialized Epic with XX1 at the shop where I work. SRAM was supposed to be...or has recently addressed this with some reversed ramping. A couple other youtubers have mentioned it as well from both Shimano and SRAM. I'm guessing Shimanos not far behind with their fix...cuz they hate being behind. :) If you stand at the back and look at where the chain is deflecting...it's way forward due to the pie plate 51, even on a standard chainring position. Chains stay in better moods if their deflection point/curve is farther back closer to the axle, giving more accumulative link "slop" to aid in a longer more relaxed curve...and the chain staying put. I'm actually amazed these designers didn't think about backpedaling with all the different chainring offsets more thoroughly. It's pretty darn important even on easy peasy rolling terrain.
When i got my hello dave it had 2.6 vee tires super tacky ebike tyres. They were so heavy and had exactly the same experience. My first ride which was only 10miles actually made me feel unwell it was so draggy 😂. But after tyre swap it transformed the bike
Hard tail bikes are so much fun. Built a titanium frame up and can’t stop riding it. That and 23 pounds doesn’t hurt either
Dang, thanks light!
@@hardtailparty I already loved hardtail biking and this time I wanted something that really glides over bumps with little effort
I rode my Marin Team 2 (SLX cassette, XT DERAILLEUR) today on a techy/rocky climb. I had exactly the same problem, chain went off if you back pedal not even half turn.
Great review and interesting to hear your thoughts and theories. On the one hand you can’t learn about a bike just by its geo charts, but then a demo ride (without tweaking) will not do the job either...
I understand your like for a tall stack, but wouldn’t that cause your front wheel to wonder when climbing? And then, lengthening the stem will cause a more hunching position?
Thanks for the review! I'm still waiting on my frameset. Having ridden a San Quentin for a few years I think the better choice as an aggessive hardtail for someone who pedals a lot is the San Quentin. It feels like the El Roy may be a better choice for the shuttle/park rider. And 175 cranks were a bad choice for sure.
BTW Marin shows 170 as the spec on both frame sizes on this bike. Not sure why you got 175.
I watched and enjoyed your El Roy videos a while ago. Yesterday, I biked in Marin County for the first time. It was so slippery! It had rained this week, but even the dry parts were slippery. No rear tire could have had too much traction. Maybe the tire choice is good for the location?
However, there were a ton of tight switchbacks everywhere, so the super long wheelbase still seems like a questionable choice...
I hope you can get your hands on the Marin San Quentin
Replacing the KMC chain with a Shimano one might solve the backpedaling issue. My Shimano-chain equipped XT drivetrain does not drop the chain at all.
Narrower bars allow for more lateral movement of the bike under you which helps the rider compensate for turns and bumps on the trail. I'm 6'1" and always gravitate to 760mm bars for that sweet spot of "not too wide, not too narrow".
La estética y geometría me recuerda a la Inglesa BTR Ranger , claro que yo ví las imágenes en aro 26' , mi aro favorito .
Looks like I’m not the only one who would like to see more about the shifting issue-frustrating! I thought you had good experiences with the same Deore 12 speed cassette on other bikes.
I had issues with the hub on the other deore drivetrain.
My XT derailleur used to do that, I re indexed them starting from scratch and its never done it again... sounds like the mech isn’t set up properly, just needs some tlc
Indexing is flawless. I suspect it's the kmc chain
@@hardtailparty all I ever use is KMC, have you checked the hanger alignment?
Yup. I've checked hanger alignment, b tension, indexing. I can't figure it out. It's not like the chainstays are too short either. Is yours 12 speed or 11 speed?
@@hardtailparty 11 speed 11/46 cassette on 36t absoluteBLACK oval chainring. I figured you’d have checked absolutely everything, maybe it’s a flaw in the frame design... not very Marin I know, but bike builders don’t always get it right
Maybe it's the spacing of the chainring? or the KMC chain they put on it? This is the first time I've seen a bike specced with a sram drivetrain, but not a sram chain. I also wonder if the chainring is doing it?
What size is it? I'm 5' 6 as well
Hi mate. Another great video. I’m also not a fan of Shimano 12 speed drivetrain. What drivetrain do you normally use?
For a budget drivetrain, i love microshift advent X. For unlimited budget i love x01 and xx1 (though I can't afford it).
@@hardtailparty think I saw you mention the Microshift one in one of your videos. I’ll look into them. Thanks
Would going down a frame size made for a more positive first impression? Love the channel.
This is the smallest size. The geo and size weren't really an issue, i think it's the components, particularly that slow rolling rear tire.
@@hardtailparty If there *were* a smaller size, I wonder if it would make a difference. That frame looked too big for you in every direction.
@@michaelthorne1347 The bike is obviously too big for him with the technical all mountain riding he likes to do and honestly in general. The control is not there, he would be served better for a size down even though it doesn't exist. Just lack of limited sizing options as Marin made the El Roy ride well for 5'10 and up only.
Our presenter on this "Regular" size is a doozy, no discredit to the host... It's the Mega Reach minister preaching to the LLS (long low slack) Choir in a cacophonic symphony of "Hallelujah"... We've reached the end of the road folks, with the cobbled deliverance of a 35mm stem. Can I hear an "Amen."
@@erdawe66 ermmm he already said , two other dude who rode says its slow , didnt mention their height thou
A moment of silence for Marin El roy owner. And that includes me
Tires should help . I run a maxis dhr2 ,2.3 exo budget tire through the rocks and have not had a puncture so it sounds like you may got to much tire for what you are doing . I put on 46 tooth cassette on my shimano 10 speed and it drops the gear in the 46 and the 42 cog. I believe that is do to the chain line angle and the way the cassette is designed and there maybe not allot you can do with that but i have had some improvement with indexing and adjusting the b screw . Its is a bit a bummer when you have to back pedal on a technical climb and drop the gear . I did a similar thing putting a shorter stem on a big bike as I like to ride some distance so it was more of a comfort factor and yes it does get a bit more twitchy and can pull up the front end but you learn to adjust your body position to make it work . I do get the chopping wood feeling pedaling out of my seat . The bike seems to ride like a budget bike which many times rides like having a boat anchor being towed behind you
I'm curious to hear what you think about the specialized fuse 6000 series frame on the basic 27.5 version.
It sounds like a good candidate for an oval chainring.
Agreed
I agree. Oval chainring made a world of difference on my trail hardtail, specifically climbs that were extremely technical and slow.
I was hoping someone more informed than myself would bring this up. I thought the same, but I don't know what I'm talking about most of the time.
Have you ever used an oval ring in a review, steve?
@@rustyshackleford9498 yes search my videos
Hey , Steve, great honest video, you inspired me to look into more aggresive hardtails instead of xc bikes, so hopefully I ll pick a good one :) btw do you have plans to review merida big trail?
I want to, but I haven't heard back from merida
@@hardtailparty well, I ll send them a message on fb to support your channel, I doubt it will make a difference, but who knows
@@hardtailparty if you want to know, they told me, you are US based with mostly us and canadian viewers and since they do not sell bikes there, they dont plan to send it there. But hey, i am from europe, so hopefully soon you will be world based :)
The Tweeks kind of take this out of consideration when you consider the price you'd have to pay to get it, AND then tweek it.
I agree, but some people might be buying it as a frame only.
@@hardtailparty can they? If so, different story.
Ah I see they do. How does the frame only price compare to the competition though?
Marin seems to really like putting slow rolling tires on their bikes, unfortunately. Some of their bikes have Vee Flow Snaps which are boat anchors as well. Very interested to see how this bike changes with different parts.
Yeah, those vee flow snaps are AWFUL!
Maybe on top of having such a soft rear end your loosing kinetic energy. Sounds like aside from the gear change on reverse pedaling it’s all small adjustments that are hindering it. Your a cool dude with cool rigs. God bless.
Nice first look. Have you had a chance to ride the Norco Torrent steel? It would be great to see how it compares to the El Roy and Honzo ESD.
No, not yet. I've been trying to get one for over a year now.
Great insights on the build. Would you go 165mm on the cranks or 170mm?
Great question. I'll be experimenting with different crank lengths in the future.
Great video! It’s a really cool bike in my opinion, looks like it would be a ton of fun at a park. I am pretty curious about the issue you were having with the shimano deore 12 speed drivetrain, I’ve never had that issue and I’ve tried to make it do such a thing but it was unable to. It’s interesting how it’s happening to you and it’s not something I’ve heard of that drivetrain doing. What do you think caused it?
I think it's a quality control thing. 8/10 shimano drivetrains I've had in lately have had some sort of an issue. Interestly, the issue on one is unique and doesn't transfer to the other. This is the first time I've had this issue on a 12 speed shimano drivetrain. I've checked the hanger for straightness, adjusted b tension, checked chain length, I have no clue what it is.
@@hardtailparty I bet it's the KMC chain. I had similar problems with SRAM drivetrain and KMC chain. Try swapping the chain and see what happens. For some reason they just don't fit well with some setups.
EXCELENT point! This is the first bike I've seen speccd with a shimano 12 speed shifter and cassette, but a different brand chain. I'm betting that has a ton to do with it, as i haven't had this particular issue with other shimano 12 speed drivetrains.
@@nkmtb that would make perfect sense. I’m honestly not too sure why they are speccing the kmc chains when the shimano chains are better and the same price.
An oval chainring could smooth out and solve the choppy pedaling issue you have with steep seat tube angles.
Possibly. I have a video on oval chainrings
Thanks, I’ll check it out. I love oval chainrings.
Great insights!! It would be interesting to find out why the El Roy feels so slow to you. Have you plans on reviewing the Stif Squatch? Also very modern and aggressive geometry but Stif claims it`s a very fast bike. And it comes with a 130mm fork, which seems to be to your liking!
Yeah, the ONLY thing I can think of regarding the slow rolling speed is the rear tire.
The stif looks amazing. I've been trying to get one, but there's a line of other reviewers before me. It never hurts when my viewers shoot them an email saying how much they'd like to see me review one...
Hey, thanks for your videos!
I want to buy my first "real MTB" ...
Kona Honzo or marin El Roy what would you prefer?
I'd be happy to help you with bike consultation over on Patreon. Patron.com/hardtailparty
When you sit on the Roy and the fork sags about 30% which steepens the angles, it ends up with ~79.5* STA and ~64.5* HTA. That's an extremely steep STA. The Roy should have come with 75* STA so that when it sags, it ends up with ~76.5 STA. The Marin engineers screwed up the geo on the Marin Pine Mountain also by making the reach too short. I would put on a set of 2.4 EXO+ Maxxis Dissectors to shed some weight and improve rolling speed..
If it had come with a 75* sta, the distance to the bars would be way too far and they'd have to shorten the reach. It's been interesting seeing them push the envelope of geo. I've learned a lot from riding it
As with everything, too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing at some point. Steep seat tube, wide bars, slack head angle. I don't thing the chain dropping off the big ring when pedaling backwards is a mech issue. I think it's a chainline issue. Rarely do manufacturers get the chainring close enough to the tire.
Thoughts on oval chainrings to cure the “chopping wood” issues?
Nice review! Your intro music sounds like “Heaven is a Place on Earth” by Belinda Carlisle 1987
Clearly a weekday because SoMo would NEVER be that deserted on a weekend in the winter. Next time you're down here, I've got some trails to show you.
I wonder if you changed the chainring to a 4mm offset, it may fix the drivetrain problem?
I wonder. But nobody should have these issues after paying $2600 for a bike. I think it's possibly the chain or the chainring causing the issues.
What trail was that? Looks closer to the Phoenix area?
I'm at a similar situation with my NS Eccentric.
Even with a Michelin Wild Race'r Enduro in the rear it's just so hard to ride it with somewhat normal speed, even on tarmac where conditions don't really change.
I look forward to hear what you find out.
Is it the geometry that causes something weird here or am I just too fat and it's really the tire you currently have in the rear?
Great video. Which trail was this?
You could have gone with few more details though😂. Only bad thing about your reviews, they land usualy when I am in bed setting my alarm clock. And then I know I will miss these half an hour sleep tommorow.
Where is this? I live in AZ and don't recognize this place.
National trail on south mountain in Phoenix.
You should do national end to end to end. ~31 miles. The west end is much less gnarly in terms of tech and much prettier in my opinion.
@@rustyshackleford9498 maybe one day, but usually when i do national it's because I love the tech. Sounds like a good challenge though.
The chainstays, have you looked at those? They are almost 2cm longer than the ESD's. What you say about the tyre sounds plausible, but the CS length may just have quite an effect
Ice definitely looked at the geo of.tgos bike. See my firet look vidor. Cs length doesn't make a bike slower on the downhills.
Try using an oval chainring to compensate for the “wood chopping”
Works like that in your experience?
Have you tried any BTR frames yet? They are amazing!
They're in my list of frames to try. I've reached out a few times.
Good analysis 👍
What trails were you riding? South Mountain in Phoenix?
That’s National Trail
What is this shifting issue causing? I have the same issue on my SLX.
I think it's the kmc chain. Which chain are you running?
@@hardtailparty shimano slx drive train throughout, afaik. Its the Specialized Fuse 2021, though.
Do you plan to test the new canyon stoic ?
I wish the top tube would line up with the seat stays at the seat tube (I hope I got those terms correct)
You got your terms correct.
@@hardtailparty good to know 😁
is it a 42mm offset fork?
is it that different to the honzo esd? on paper they look pretty similar
Yes, it's different
I would say chain stay length is the biggest factor, in theory.
Buen video , excelente primera impresión.
I had a bit similar issue when I was testing Honzo ESD earlier. On ups and downs it felt totally fine, but on flat, smooth terrain, pedalling from seat felt somewhat unnatural. Never experienced the same with any oldskool geometry bikes.
Maybe it was the steep seat angle, as it puts you really forward on the bike and practically right above the bottom bracket. Moving saddle backwards seemed to help a bit, but somewhat compromised the cockpit length as well.
It made me wonder if hardtails really need that steep static seat angles (77,5⁰ on Honzo ESD) as when the fork's sag has been adjusted, it will make it even steeper. Lack of real suspension means that that seat angle never slackens out from static position.
I actually really love steep seat angles, especially on the esd. But i also have steep climbs where it's beneficial. If you're mainly pedalling flat terrain, a steep seat angle isn't really needed. However, of you have a long reach, you need a steep seat angle to balance that's otherwise it'll feel way to long when seated.
Please do a review of the Esker Japhy.
I plan to
Body mechanics man. Engaging more muscles makes a stronger connection, like triangulation of a rear triangle
Have you ever reviewed a full suspension? Would love to see a review of the new pivot switchblade from you.
I have, but not on this channel. I'm going to keep my channel focused on hardtails right now, but i do love reviewing full suspensions as well.
I love your videos and how informative they are. You sold me on a Cotic Bfe Max which I am currently waiting for. That being said I feel many people will take this video to heart. This bike along with the Honzo and Growler are sold as they are specced and it's kinda sad that Marin seemed way off the beaten path with this build when it shares many parts with those other two bikes that got mostly great reviews. I do feel that the changes you are making to the Marin will improve the bike but that basically means anyone who buys the Marin will most likely have to make similar changes. And who is really going to spend the extra money to potentially make the Marin better when they could just buy the Honzo or slap a sweet fork on a Growler 40.
What is a Cody bike brand?
Evil reckoning i think, its a fantastik bike
@@guipol112 Thanks man but i mean bike from 03:10 .. looks like corratec bow but i don’t think it is ....
@@Ma77Barlow vassago moose knuckle
Price is up there at $999 for frame only option, pick up the Canfield, Stanton or Cotic for the same or less - different bikes, I know, but still. Does the frame have decent compliance?
Know you'll probably never see one, but the newly announced Canyon Stoic looks interesting. They're finally getting on board with more modern geo with that and the new Spectral.
The shimano drivetrain problem is weird, I have the new shimano deore 12 speed, and it back pedals just fine all day long, no dropping up gears like this bike is doing. Maybe something else going on there don't know
See comments below. I'm guessing it's the kmc chain
Sounds like a bad chainline. I had an old Fisher hardtail 3 x 8 that was misaligned and no feasible way to get the crankset/chainrings futher inboard. Bad times.
Oval chainring?