I use computers for work. By the end of the day I need to switch off, and not stare at a monitor for another 2/3 hours, getting distracted by emails. Hardware gives me an opportunity to use different skill-sets, and sit on the sofa and twiddle. Plus, you get LEDS on hardware, and everyone knows LEDS are cool...
Another big factor: You do not own your DAW. You do not own your games on Steam, your digital music, or your copy of Adobe Photoshop. I don't like renting my tools 😊. I've been burned before with 3d software changing their EULA overnight. FL Studio is already showing signs of getting autodesk'd with their new cloud offerings.
I think it comes down to the value of making music. Is a song a product? If so, use the least expensive and least inspiring (but maybe most efficient) tool to produce your product. Is a song art? This might lead to the use of inspirational works of art and inspiring workflows to create. Or... as for most people... is the act of making music what gives us joy? If so, we should use instruments, computers, and most importantly workflows that are a joy to use. Ultimately we shouldn't let anyone tell us what to like or dislike, and we shouldn't have to justify our choice of instruments (hardware or software). Music should be fun, and creative, and artistic, and a joy to make for most people, and THAT is priceless.
I run a hybrid setup and feel there are more important things in life to pay attention to than Espen Kraft’s opinion or shenanigans. If you want to talk about scamming industries, talk about pharma to name one. Cheers
That is the worst advice ever. Let electronic music makers continue to look for scams in the synth market and not in the pharmaceutical market, about which they are not necessarily knowledgeable. These both industries are not consumer friendly.
@@pikselis There was a time when musicians created songs about what was wrong with society… Great songs with very wise words. Pink Floyd for example… I’m not at all suggesting we should stop making music. But in case a musician has the desire to criticize the world in which he lives, there are more deserving targets than synth companies. Music can change minds, it can unite and inspire. However feel free to look for scams within the industry as well. There are a few to be found but most synth companies aren’t scammers. Cheers
@@pikselis I agree with that. Especially large, shareholder companies are guilty of milking the markets and maximize their profits. These companies even do this with the subcontractors they use. Meanwhile some of those companies are virtually monopolists. We all know these companies and use their products, but these companies are not really the same as the synth companies Espen Kraft indicated. And if there were ‘evil’ ‘scam’ companies working in the synthesizer industry, they likely wouldn’t stay afloat for long. Pricing for a product isn’t necessarily based on labour, parts and r&d plus a markup. Pricing often is based on what a company can charge and is weighted against the optimal profit. This is just free market capitalism, nothing evil. If there were only a few companies cornering the market, Espen would be correct. But there is so much choice and so many possibilities nowadays in the synthesizer market, one can easily pick another product and company. We have lots of choice, being hardware or software. There might even be too much choice for companies to survive. Bottom line, Espen Kraft is plainly wrong regarding his core arguments. At this time it’s hard to take his word we are being scammed by almost the entire industry, as he is suggesting, without any proof. It is just disingenuous.
As long as it is safe to buy some Doepfer modules I think that we’ll probably be okay. A granular sampler may just crap the bed one day after years 🤷♀️
Fundamentally.... Creating a beat on a computer with a mouse and playing a drum set is a whole different skill and talent and effort ... And various other aspects. If the outcome is what is the goal... Then that's a different argument. But you can't compare a computer to a Synth, especially when you are considering making live music.
I really like the Korg Minilogue XD concept of combining opensource software and Analogue. Makes this instrument limitlessly customizable while keeping a simple workflow for dialing in a sound
I think we are all aware what computers can do nowadays. I love gear, love pressing buttons and turning knobs. Whatever the price, I'll die happy. Hopefully not in debt.
Excellent take per usual! I tried watching Espen’s full argument so that I could form an opinion, but 40 seconds in I started thinking about how i would rather rewatch any of your videos - you never try to gatekeep, you’re enthusiastic about learning things and making mistakes, and you teach new techniques in a way that makes sense and never feels condescending. THAT’S the Internet personality I want to engage with. Thanks for doing things your way!
A vst in a box shouldn’t be as expensive as an equivalent analogue/vintage synth. There’s way more expensive stuff inside in the latter, as opposed to a relatively cheap processor etc in the first.
This just isn’t a good faith argument. Actual VST in a box products exist- 1010 Lemondrop/Fireball, Roland Compact, etc. and they’re priced accordingly. Simple electronics, simple manufacturing, simple distribution, simple repairs. And they’re great if you really only need a VST in a box. A gigging professional usually needs more than that. When you start factoring those things into every aspect of production, the value and the cost are real. If you ask yourself what you need if you’re going on the road for 9 months as opposed to “why isn’t this marketed to me, the bedroom producer, like everything else”, an arranger style stage keyboard, which you can replace in any major city between sound check and curtains, starts making a lot of sense. Those things tend to be closer to a large VST library as opposed to “a VST” with many instruments, effects, sequencing, mixing, etc. The electronics to run all of that with very low latency without PC processing power to leverage, in depth control, fast program changes, isn’t trivial. If you really want to join the discussion, build or at least price out a little 555 based oscillator and transistor filter. The individual parts that make up analog are not super expensive. It’s when it becomes increasingly complex, it can’t have problems during your performance, it has to comply with many different regulatory agencies all over the world, it has to be easy and quick to repair, have lots of connectivity, that every aspect of production starts going way up in price. And that’s true with analog or digital.
@@Tofupancho The 1010 lemondrop is indeed priced very reasonably. The same can be said about Blofeld, the new small Korgs etc. All under a thousand dollars. My gripe is with digital VA synths costing many thousands of dollars, that emulate analogue synths while costing the same (or more) as their analogue counterparts. Shouldn’t the emulations cost less because they are cheaper to make, or is that a false assumption?
@@carstenaltenaAlready asked, already answered. It’s kinda long for the sake of being thoughtful and polite. Tl dr- you’re crying about the existence of a handful of products that aren’t targeting you personally.
My 3rd Wave isn't getting replaced by a plugin any time soon. My TX802? Maybe. My Polybrute 12? Nope, though Diva and some other "analog" plugins sound amazing. The word "scammed"was great for Espen's clicks, but oddly I felt kind of scammed for clicking on it. I'm happy to see your thoughtful counter here. Thanks for that
No plugin compares any good hardware up until about 2010. One can say the bell tones of fm plugins are as good as the hardware, they’re close, but still no there. Evethring else is a broader margin. Not even the library based plugins compare the o hardware. Some close… and all things in context, but ultimately still no plugin compares.
@@RickyTinez Derreck May (string of life) used the most annoying to program instrument Ensoniq Mirage (not korg m1 like wrongly people think) to invent the music you are inspired today DetroitHouse, Rico IS ALL ABOUT THE SOUND, is proved even scientifically that humans remember the tone/sound as something unique to a track and not the same boring chord progressions that we have listen million of times in millions of tracks (that is truly annoying for the House/Techno audience) The sound is produced by the circuitry (not the faceplate knobs””) now open your modern instruments and see what is inside NOTHING (small pcbs identical identical to behringer) and than open your MPC60 or the Expander and you will see that they are packed with circuitry and you need VOLTAGE A LOT to sound good there is no escape from this (the expander you owned and in my humble opinion did a great mistake to sell it). You are very talented when you are in the ZONE and especially when you don’t try to be technical (or musically correct/ chord progression “knowledgeable”), you have still interesting ideas but i think in the last years there is a drop in terms of sound quality/depth in your tracks they sound more of the shelf cliché and i think that the reason is your complete switch from the superb sounding machines like MPCs 1000/3000/60 & Oberheim Expanders to Digitakt & and boring Peak that thousand of other users are using with the same boring glassy novation sounds!! You might think that your demos below are not technically chord progression correct “” but they are Superb performances and tunes that set you apart from the herd my 2 cent as a person that is convinced you are a House Talent i recommend you to Stay Away from the stupid herd Cliché and “anal”bombardment about music theory just be your selfe with ought applying knowledge (ART IS SPIRITUAL NOT KNOWLEDGE), as the great Alan Whats used to say the western music is like a military march “1/4, 1/8, 1,16” it lacks swing””. here is Ricky that sounded so good and stand apart from others, no rules no boring chord progression on the boring nord piano but just a Soul in the ZONE expressing his individual creativity with Superb deep sounding Machines👇🏻 th-cam.com/video/fDOC364rECE/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Oh and I have BOTH hardware and software, and they both have their place.You still have limitations with software, depending on how YOU use it. One person might never explore anything besides what they NEED. I hear a LOT of opinion and subjectivity, NO facts..
It just dawned on espin that digital synths (which have been made for DECADES by every leading synth manufacturer and have accounted for the groundbreaking breakthroughs in sound design and spawned whole genres of music) are purpose built computers, housed in purpose built hardware user interfaces running purpose built software? REALLY?… that just dawned on him… NOW.?… The digital Dx’s, Jv’s, Supernova’s, Nords, Viruses, Casios, Akai’s, Korgs, Ensoniqs, EMUs, etc. etc.were all just cool sounding analog synths and groove boxes to him? *sigh*… the internet was supposed to make us smarter. ~~~~ ( good vibrations to you Ricky)
Behringer can't brick my hardware overnight with a new EULA like Steam, Autodesk, Adobe, and Maxon did to many artists. FL Studio is already on that path with their cloud rentals. I much prefer not to rent my instruments.
As someone who makes VSTs and is working on analog modeling, digital recreations aren’t there yet despite what people online say. People on forums used to say that the access virus rev A made all analogue synths obsolete. Everyone thinks that the technology of their age is the be all and end all and improvements can not be made. They are wrong. What I usually do is that I make my sounds in vsts while working on a song and when I am done I remake the parts as close as I can get on analog synths. I’m always pleased with the results.
I totally agree with you. I purchased a Roland System 8, not because it sounded better than my DAW plugins but because, I wanted that hands on approach to sound design again. And it works perfectly for me.
'Espen Kraft said you got scammed. I disagree.' - Then you immediately go ahead and pretty much agree with Espen on the 3rd Wave. Neither the Microwave software or the PPG software compare at all to the 3rd Wave, how can you even suggest that? Have you or Espen even used your 3rd Wave? Do you understand how much of a synth you actually have there, and what its capabilities even are? There is NO 3rd Wave plugin equivalent. I tried to explain this to Espen on his channel, and he just doubled down and continued to claim it's a scam. Yes, there's lots of overpriced synths, let's talk about that instead of spout BS and misinformation, mostly for controversy and out of desperation for views. Espen's channel quickly went into my 'Don't Recommend Channel' list after his BS.
@@scottfarrell1906 I reckon you are not familiar with State Azure? If anything, I value his opinion a lot more than your lowball age ‘argument’. If you want to argue, bring valid arguments.
@@scottfarrell1906 What do you mean? I wasn't subscribed to Espen anyway, but I don't have time or want to be recommended channels that lie or spread BS. Do you think that's childish? I don't. I use YT a lot, and I'd rather have the algorithm feed me content that is valuable.
I would be inclined to agree with you, based on demos of the third wave. Yet, many people echo the sentiment that the software, even the old PPG, sounds equivalently good. I’m skeptical. I find the Behringer Pro-800 sounds better than all the Prophet 5 soft synths I have. But hey - hearing is subjective.
@@embersandash The Waldorf PPG software DOES sound as good as the original (well almost, you still can't recreate the analog filter perfectly), that's not my point. The 3rd Wave is not just a PPG clone, that's only a very small part of what the 3rd Wave can do. It's also a fully modern wavetable synth, a very capable VA, a sampler and 4 sequencers per layer...(actually the hardware is essentially 4x 3rd Wave's). Again, there is NO software of the 3rd Wave, it doesn't exist and there's nothing even remotely close to it. This isn't a subjective opinion, this is a fact and Espen would have you believe his BS instead.
"why buy a hardware synth when you could get a vst" is a complete troll take, and anyone who has touched both knows that. There are many legit problems with the current synth industry but this is not one of them.
I STRONGLY disagree. Espen framed Sequential - who have best practice MIDI implementation, a super intuitive, user friendly interface, knobs that are tight and feel like a Bugatti, space for 1000 presets and an outstanding service that still provides Apple M3 apps for vintage Poly Evolver sound design as well as spare parts and manuals. But ... R&D and service comes at a cost, same as premium hardware and processors that last a lifetime. You could of course steal ideas and fire your whole R&D department like Behringer did, declare plagiarism a business model and produce synths in sweatshops in China, with only one noisy mono connector and no MIDI implementation whatsoever, that break after 3 months ... This doesn't mean though that "Behringer is showing what these machines truly cost" like Espen claimed or that people who invest a lot in development and quality like Melbourne Instruments with their motor faders or Black Corporation with the Kijimi with one LFO per knob (which is still unique in a poly synth) are ripping you off. Also take some pedal makers like UA or Eventide that did in fact provide their effects as a VST before they put it in a metal enclosure: I still love the little boxes and connecting them to my little synths. I dislike clicking on tiny dropdowns and dragging virtual wires with my mouse in my free time ... I do that 8 hours a day anyway and it doesn't feel very creative or inspiring at all.
My experience is that there is a certain immediacy that is lost when controlling a VST from a midi controller. There is a disconnect of sorts, you can feel it. Playing music is touching something, in Spanish the word used is "toca" when referring to playing guitar, which means to "touch" the guitar. Touching an instrument, even if its a VA hardware synth, is a certain experience. It's a piece of electronics with an electro magnetic field and it has it's own operating system and workflow.
Value, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It always had been and always will be. If you spend money on a synth (or anything else) and it brings you joy, then the value is there for you. If you buy a synth (or anything else) and it brings you frustration or disappointment, then no matter the price, the value isn't there for you. And no matter the price or hype, the tool will not make you better at the task at hand. No synth (hardware or software) will make your compositions better. Limitations may breed creativity for some. Vast possibilities may breed creativity for others. None of this matters. All that matters is the art you create and the experience you have while creating that art.
I love it when musicians fight and bicker about nonsense that doesn't matter, instead of creating music in those times. TH-cam has polluted musicians journeys.
The main reason I avoided ever getting on social media (besides youtube) was my experience on synth message boards in the late 90s. At first it was fun to engage with like minded individuals online, but eventually it devolved into wasting time talking about the craft instead of actually developing it.
Professionally trained, amateur musician here: I made music casually with DAWs for about a decade, had plenty of VST libraries, made more than a few complex productions for myself but never really enjoyed it much. Definitely a creativity sapper and tiring for a weekend warrior. Hunched over a keyboard and getting mouse-hand cramps is not fun! When I switched to physical synths a year ago the veil of creativity was lifted. I've since become a budget collector of physical hardware and making music every day. I still use the DAW to capture the source from my rig, maybe apply some effects or additional layers. But there is something about capturing authentic sound from source audio - physically separating the production from the DAW that makes it work. Maybe a placebo affect, who knows - but it works and keeps me making music. All is good again 🎶
@@Silent_Stillness Absolutely agree, and just one reason why I use a MIDI controller grid with Ableton. I'd never previously made the connection between DAWs being visually intensive, and producers listening with their eyes instead of what they should be using to hear - their ears. Thought provoking comment, thank you. 🙂
@@2112jonr The rabbit hole goes much deeper than that! There's also the issue of decoupling where you're looking at from having your hands in your field of view when looking at a monitor, which profoundly interferes with the feeling of immersion. Having a quality MIDI controller surface can significantly help the feeling of immersion, but fundamentally being reliant on a PC control scheme implies that you won't be able to completely break away from having to look at the screen and interact with a keyboard and mouse. The problem is not that there's a screen involved, it's much more complex than that... If you're interested in this subject you might want to have a look at the first video I released, it has the word "Meta" in the title. Enjoy!
He’s a content creator who makes money off of clicks, and controversy creates clicks. It’s as transparent as that and I, for one, find it distasteful to say the least.
@@TrottelheimerRight? Groove Synthesis is a TINY company that is local to me. The fact that they’ve managed to bootstrap the 3rd Wave into existence out of nothing is a miracle! And then to compare them to Behringer as some sort of proof that their product is an overpriced scam is patently offensive.
Every hardware synth has an analog output section that can possibly be saturated. + recording hardware doesn’t always sound the same as bouncing virtual synth. You can record the Waldorf through a compressor that has transformers & no it won’t be same as bouncing a plug. You can Bruce Swedien it & record the synth through a mic from a speaker.
Where SOME vendors DO scam you is when it comes to providing decent updates: 1) bugs that should be fixed on time, because in the old days we would send it in for repairs, and 2) selling incomplete products to get that lower TTM and/or give the illusion that a product is being expanded even further, if after the launch you (need to) prioritize new product development and sales. I don’t think the scam-problem is in the way a synth is generating its sound waves, as digital is as electronic as a so-called (vintage) analog synth. Just an algorithm or circuitry producing pulses that get somehow amplified and put out a speaker… moving air. And yeah, the preferred flow wherein one is best suited to produce these kind of air waves is what you pay for.
My point exactly. Even if a particular synth _is_ just a VST in a box, the interface for that "VST in a box" makes a huge difference. The workflow is different, you get more tactile feedback, and you can adjust more things at once than you can with a mouse or even a typical USB MIDI controller. Oh, and it's a lot easier to get hardware synths to interact with other hardware synths over DIN-5 MIDI, since you don't need a host device like you do with USB MIDI and you don't have to do any routing configuration - just plug-in, set your channels and go. But at the same time, use what you like, not what people tell you to.
I think my issue with what Espen said is that hardware users are being "scammed". Scamming, to my mind, is tricking someone into giving them money and receiving nothing in return. I may be wrong but people who buy a 3rd Wave synth are fully aware of what they are getting in return for their hard-earned money. And that is what they want. So be it. They are not stupid. Espen has gotten pretty salty and irritating over the last few years. That's why I unsubscribed awhile back. I was there for the vintage synth talk and all I was starting to get was preachy commentary and bad PSB knockoffs. No thank you. BTW, great content Ricky.
All his vintage gear he sold, he sold for market value, isn't that scamming due to highly inflated prices for some specific gear? Isn't he now scamming people due to the limited appeal and actual value of said product, other than for collectors?
I agree, this scam argument presupposes that individuals who buy hardware synths are naive dupes- classic grump stance . We ARE stupid but it's not the synth's fault. The synth is pure- how dare you, Espen.
@@DankePlacehow could selling something for market value be scamming someone? That makes zero sense. If he *created* the inflated prices, then maybe you have a good point
I don't feel he was saying that his picks were what he felt were simply VSTs in an external box (although in some cases that was his gripe). In contrast, his pick for a synth you should get was the Hydrasynth, a product he intimated is a really good VST in a box. His list focused more on the value of the product, as in if a product was relatively expensive but didn't really provide any features that you can't get in something costing much less.
Spot on about workflow! Oddly enough, my main instrument is pipe organ, so it's harder for me to get into the zone with dragging a mouse around a screen. Being able to use physical controls, as I do on the organ, is where I find my workflow increasing by a LOT. Good convo - thanks, Ricky!!
So this isn't Epsom Salt's 1st attempt on the same subject, he live streamed the same context 3 months ago and that only got him 5K views. I mean give the guy a prize for effort at least.
My Yamaha Motif, the ancient 20 years old Motif. So, is pretty much a VST in a hardware box. But not switching on a computer and using a synth is infinitely more satisfying than clicking notes in a DAW's piano roll
Even if they are “just vsts in a box” they are dedicated/optimized units that will always perform with low latency. So in away, they do sound or feel better.
@@MaxZorin8 Both analog and digital synthesizers need to be assembled. I have strong doubts that this is the reason why digital synths cost too much. I have a strong belief that it is convenient for the manufacturers that you think that way.
@@pikselis you echo what Espen misleads people with, but you have zero understanding how these products come to market. The man hours required to code anything in the digital world, you dismiss and make out like the value of said product is diminished. I bet you own a high end phone and think nothing of it.
@@pikselis I'm sorry, if you think you can use existing code from somewhere else, or did you just imply Groove Synthesis copied code from their existing products which none existed? You really thought this one out right?
To answer your question at the end, a mix of both is key for me. Being able to use older samplers to get texture and character is great but building out beats in Ableton is so much more fun for me. I tend to run everything I make back through gear as well for even more sauce!
I disagree about not buying hardware for the sound and just for workflow (which is ofc a large benefit). But saying it‘s not about the sound, is, at least from my POV, complete nonsense. I buy hardware synths because they sound better at what they do compared to the vst imitations (if those are even available, for all but one of my synths, there isn’t even an emulation). By definition, they are the real thing. Characterful, organic, warm sound is what I‘m looking for and analog and hybrid synths do that best.
I also love this quote from Mike Dean from the SOS article: „“I have about 50 keyboards. All of them have been upgraded to work with MIDI. They give me real sounds. They sound far better than soft synths. I just spent $15,000 on an ARP 2600, and it sounds so good, it paid for itself in a week. It has nice, warm distortion and wonderful oscillators. I have the Behringer clone and it sounds terrible, and the Arturia version, and while it sounds good, it doesn’t sound like the real thing. “I also just spent $50,000 on a Yamaha CS80, and it sounds great, and nothing plays like it. Nothing has the same polyphonic aftertouch. I also bought a Roland Jupiter 8 this year, for $20,000. People talk shit about these instruments. When you have one, you can hear the difference with the imitations. The fact that the real synths are sometimes out of tune is what makes them so cool. It’s funky. It gives them character! I also use soft synths a lot, I’m not against them. But soft synths are like singers with Auto‑Tune. They sound very sterile.” Dean is particularly a fan of Moog synths, and explains: “The Moog synths I use the most are the Matriarch, the Grandmother, and the Voyager for my signature bass sound. I have been to the Moog factory a few times, looking at prototypes and trying things out. The Voyager, Juno 106, Korg Triton and two laptops are my core setup live. One laptop is for playback and the other for sound sources, like my guitar sounds and stuff like that. But when I work in my studio in the box, I use mostly samplers, like Native Instruments Kontakt, and I also use a lot of Arturia stuff, for organs and so on.”“
I’d love to be able to sit in front of a computer knowing what I have in my head and which knobs to turn on a vst. But I love to explore ideas and using both hands on a physical piece of equipment. I love the more unstable nature of voltage through analog gear and the feeling of playing an actual instrument. You inspired me to get a pro 3 myself and I still have to see the day where I feel disappointed with that purchase. Thanks for all the inspiration Ricky!
For machines that have fully baked, usable firmware, an instrument will endure as it is forever, or until the hardware dies. Meanwhile the plugin equivalent is likely going to stop working at some point. Things like my MPC that seem to require periodic updates, and demand to reauthorize software online randomly are an issue.
This is why I got into dawless. Computers are great for recording songs you already have finished. But it's not easy to play a computer the way I can a guitar, and follow the breadcrumbs to a cool tune. I've come up with so much on the guitar that way.
@@MoeShinola1 I was broke had a daw and used it for years then the headaches started then soon after I gave up the daw which was really hard and started to slowly start learning the real way
Lol this is an absolute COMPLETE apples and oranges thing you brought up. Synths are so much more similar with the vsts than comparing guitar playing and a daw.😅
Actually, for some people, it is very easy to "follow the breadcrumbs to a new tune" using just software. It's ok - it's not for everyone. I actually find it much easier and faster than using hardware. That said, I'm literally playing hardware (GS e7 through a Mercury X via my DAW with a Sonsig ACE chorus effect up first before the Mercury X) as I type this... I love using both, even in combo. It's fun!
Behringer makes 'vintage' synths for £200. Why don't companies like Oberheim or Sequential make VSTs with an optional dedicate MIDI controller (with or without keys) that people can pay, say, £500 for? Why not make these new synths modular? I can buy the VST then, if I want, buy the controller box and later on the keyboard. They can all fit together like a synth kit. Sure, the MIDI controller box won't have the hardware inside to run the VST but that can be an add on module too, like a Scope DSP board or something. It is possible to do and it would lead more people, like me, to buy synths from the legacy companies instead of 3rd party VST remakes like Arturia. Just a thought.
There is also a possible latency issue. VSTs triggered by MIDI controllers can lag up to 10ms, whereas hardware synths could respond within 1ms if designed properly.
Every time I’ve ever bought a new, pretty much top-o-the-line laptop, I have consistently been amazed at how quickly it gets overwhelmed with plugins, fan running super high. I don’t think there’s a fan in any synth I own, at least not that I’ve heard. They do what they do and I don’t have to decide what to sacrifice or how many voices it can have. It has it or it don’t. I can update their os, or not, and it isn’t going destroy the other synths if I do upgrade the os.
if your hardware synth has any analog section at all, analog vcf, vca, digitally controlled vco... then the vst version is only an approximation of the hardware. the vst may be better for programming and presets and reproducibility, but it will never beat the hardware.
All I have ever wanted was Omnisphere in a hardware unit. Thoughtfully designed and laid out, knob per function as much as is realistic. That would be the great. I know you can do hardware control over Omnisphere but yea - it's not quite the same.
I think that there's a lot to this idea. I wonder if you had a MIDI controller/keyboard that was designed from the ground up to interface with [instrument X] running on a PC processor on board, would that get you 90%, 98%, 100% there?
Dedicated DPSs will always outperform your "in-the-box" capabilities, to the point where the same algorithm can have drastically different resource requirements.
you can't forget that's the hardware also depend on the quality of the converters that's are in. that's, to me represent a huge difference with the vst. Hardware instruments are clearly about the workflow for sure but also about the electronics composants that made them.
Being a huge analog nerd, I still do a bunch of stuff digitally. I mainly work hybrid. Some of it is just down to cost, however most of it is just because I will not use analog just out of spite, but if it has some benefit to it and it is something I can fit in my budget, I will go analog all day long. It goes the same way for digital, like some people have 128 analog VCOs hooked up to their 128 analog filters and so on, still I am limited to the like 20 analog VCOs I have in my setup right now, and if I need to generate a sound that require 128 VCOs, I will in most cases use something digital, or just track 12,8 VCOs 10 times. Like most of the digital revolution comes down to cost and convenience, however in some cases the quality takes the backseat. Like you can not argue that a cassette sounds better than a CD when it comes to like noise level, still the cassette have some advantages that people seemed to forget rather quickly. As modern vinyl is just mastered from digital files anyway, the whole point of a great sounding analog format is sort of lost in my opinion, and I will rather pick the noiseless in comparison format, CD. That being said, I still buy and listen to vinyl, however as a DJ, the expense of buying 50-100$ records did not make much sense when I can just pick up a track in WAV at beatport or bandcamp for 3-4$, and that way gain the ability to get a way greater catalog of music at the same price, and not be as restrained in terms of what music I can pick up, as most music that is released will be released as WAV. For digital synths, I still like having the hardware to work with, like running a VST generating sound in the same project as I am mixing in, has become a no-no for me personally. I would rather have a standalone unit that I can plug into my analog effects, and not waste my valuable CPU power. I do not really mind clicking the mouse rather than turning a knob, however I will always run the audio through a cable unless I am working on mastering, mixing or remixing other producers work. Like when it is in the box, I like to keep it there, but putting it in the box is half the process in my opinion.
I pretty much exclusively use Phase Plant for all my synthesis because of how much power it has. When I just want to mess around, have fun, or even just to refresh the creative well I like to play on my modular or my DX7. There's a place for both but I think if you're just getting started it can be beneficial to look at software first before you start spending a ton of money on hardware. Make sure you enjoy it first and then start to get the things that make you more creative, improve your workflow, or just make you happy.
I don't know who Espen Kraft is and I don't care. All I know is I received my hydrasynth yesterday and it's the best piece of gear I have purchased in a long time. Also, I would like this Kraft person to show me some vst which sounds as good as the subharmonicon or the kobol.
I've been completely software based for the past 20+ years and I'm overwhelmed by everything I have bought over the years. I'm making a transition to hardware little by little for the exact reasons you stated in this video. It's ok if it's essentially a VST in a box, as long as the hardware is designed around it exactly and with high quality.
I was about to sell my MPC Live when AKAI dropped the 3.0 update. Now I use it every day. And it's just for the arrangement view, even as basic as it is. So why don't I just use a DAW if it's clearly the "DAW in a box" feel what gets me going? Because When I turn on the MPC I'm immediately making music. No latency, no driver problems, no popups, no email, plus I can get really fast with the buttons and the shift functions. If there's some sound design process I can't do on the MPC, I do it on an Ipad or on the computer with a DAW, yes, but then I make a sample pack and go back to the MPC. The main thing I still do on the computer is finishing touches, mixing and mastering.
when creating I get lost in my DAW, just end up not knowing what im doing or where im going. on the other hand I have to push hard to get my little DAW-less set up to do what i want (mc101+circuit tracks/rhythm) getting these 3 different (and limited) elements to "sing" together is hard but always more rewarding. and once I record what ive made into the CPU I know exactly what bells and whistles i want to add to actually finish a tune
Im not creative with a computer and a daw. Everything comes out generic, overproduced and boring. Put me in front of a mpc and im suddenly not so picky about everything. I mix and arrange in reaper because its to much of a hassle on the mpc. Something about turning nobs, punching pads etc shifts the focus for me.
There's also the value question. I only ever bought 2 new synths (Nord modular G2 and a Monomachine) everything else 2nd hand and in most cases, if I've sold something I've got the money back or often more than i paid. Software just gets lost eventually or doesn't work anymore, maybe you can trade the license for a few dollars maybe not.... The vst in a box things is a valid criticism though. As a long time MPC user i was interested in the new wave of devices but when trying one, just couldn't quite understand why is choose that over a laptop
I dont think speed should be the focus for people that are not earning a living by making music to deadlines. Some gear "feels" more fun to use. It matters very little how long it takes if every moment of the process is fun. If you get that buzz from a DAW good, if you get it from a chaos pad good.
Thanks for this grown-up, measured take, Ricky. I'm a friend of his and a big fan of Espen's music (and a fellow 80s survivor). I appreciate what you added to the discussion here. Cheers, man!
I'm completely new to making music and ended up with a syntakt and now a digitakt 2. I tried Ableton, but when I already spend 8 hours every day staring at a screen writing code, I wanted something far less distracting, tactile and new to interact with. Maybe one day i'll revisit a DAW and plugins if I feel like the limitations of hardware are getting in the way, but until then -- there's plenty for me to learn and do
I have an A-88 fully weighted keyboard, and tons that aren't fully weighted. Pianos and Rhodes sound so much better to me when I play the A-88. Like, we know it's only MIDI data, it can't affect sound. Of course, you may hit the keys in a way that becomes more dynamic with a fully weighted, but it's just such a good example of how we feel is so important for how we perceive the music we play. Since I enjoy it much more, I play much more. These things matter.
I could never afford hardware synths when I was in my 20's back in the 90's, so software-based recording in DAWs with VSTs was the "solution to all of my problems." But it opened up a whole new subset of problems. I had to have the latest and greatest versions of everything. I constantly had to upgrade either my PC or laptop. I went through at least 5 audio interfaces. That gets old real quick. So now I just use vintage boss drum machines, Roland boutique synths, pocket operators, Behringer clones, a keystep 37, and a Tascam digital 8-track. I have a Juno-DS88 for big glass pads and pianos. I only use the DAW for mixing and mastering. When I push record on that Tascam, shit gets real... That's the way a recording should be to me.
yeah, would introduce a third option: ipads with a BT midi controller. they brigde this gap, make it tactile and are exploratory in nature. soundwise they are on par with vsts. so, I think this is the best right now, at least for me.
If you can make music with a spoon, well, do it. Only the result matters. Only what you want to do matters. I’m a heavy DAW user but I couldn’t create something without synths, without hardware. The touch and feel is part of the creative process and hardware is so valuable.
Sitting at a computer is "work" like my day job. When I create with synths it never feels like work. This is worth the money because - on the weekend I don't want to be anywhere near a mouse or keyboard.
Learned to write music on a computer. I wrote a lot of music on the computer. Then I got drawn into hardware and I stopped making music. Now, years later, I'm selling my hardware and hoping I can refind the music. To each their own but I wish I stayed in the box.
so, heres my oppinion on the subject: hardware synths dont speed up anything but for me, my microfreak sounds better than any plugin just because i put the work into it to put all the good samples in there which was pretty time consuming but worth it for all the fun im getting now. because hardware is more fun and also more useful in a live environment and also theres synthesizers that just sound better than plugins. period. tldr: hardware got a unique sound and is more fun but its not neccessarily faster because of the time it takes to set it up
Instruments are inspiring. Vst’s can be inspiring, but there is nothing like a cutoff knob driving an acidline through a distortion. I love noodling on my synths, writing stuff with vst’s and then just go back noodling and experimenting
Interesting point. I tend not to use software synths on PC:s because I find it uninspiring to click around with a mouse when creating sounds. However, I've found a halfway house in the form the Zynthian platform, which is basically a Raspberry Pi in a box, running (free) plugins. So far it's just like a PC from a couple of years back. But ethe device has four knobs and a touchscreen with its own graphic layout, so it feels more like a hardware synth. For me it tips the balance, and being all based on open source software means I can actually make changes to the system if I really want to which is a big bonus.
Hardware for me is about work flow and inspiration. I find engaging with something that is physical with knobs is so much easier for me to create instead of clicking everything.
I appreciate those companies that don't go overboard with prices. The problem is us who are willing to pay a fortune for products that should cost half as much.
The Arturia Minifreak, soundwise, is pretty much the same on the VST as on the desktop synth. I could even go as far as to say the VST is more powerful because it's easier to access certain things or visualize soundwaves, etc. But the fact remains, when I'm stuck making music I don't like in my usual workflow (Ableton, vsts, midi keyboard), I go to the basic Minifreak+Digitakt+Extra synth desktop, dawless workflow and I just jam for hours on end, and that's how I find I've made my fav tracks, without exception, and it also gets me out of that rut and pushes me forward.
But in a sense this also exists in software, like are there any bedroom/laptop producers who hit the 8-track ceiling given by Ableton Lite, for instance? And if they do, won't they be motivated to get into resampling and bouncing too?
When I bought my Roland system 8 hardware.i got told by some of the synth community that I can buy it from Roland Cloud as a VST and I’ve just wasted £1200! I do have both now,if I’m doing live jams I’ll use the hardware,if I’m Composing something in my DAW I will use the VST.also making patches on hardware is more indulging IMO
I love the idea of the sheer power a DAW with VSTs and whatnot can have, but there's three big reasons why I prefer a physical/hardware device - first is tactile experience, which is a massive thing for me. The second is the limitations that the device imposes can help with analysis paralysis, and not having six bajillion things to choose from. The third? It allows you to "unplug" from a lot of the other things typically attached to a computer, and lets my brain focus on what's in front of it, and get into the thick of it, and have fun.
in a world of endless possibilities, limitations can really spark creativity... serum could do all my moog (grandmother) can do, however id never even consider making similar sounds in serum... the moog just kinda guides me - and that's what I love It for.
Well let's look at other products: For example, the operating system on a mac is included. Logic Pro costs a few hundred dollars (?) A high-end Macbook Pro is what, $6,000 now?
There will always be a romance between creators and hardware gear. It not only a process but a feeling. I think that’s partly what people pay for. Form and function, and a feeling.
Having just come down from my studio after a little synth jam I can safely say that hardware is the only way to go if you want improvisational fun. You just can’t reach over and tweak some knobs on different units simultaneously in software. Plus finding all those little sweet spots when you explore settings just can’t be beat.
VSTs in a box? Yes. I bought a Korg Modwave MKII not too long ago. But with it came a coupon for ModWave Native VST for $50. Why would I keep the almost $800 synth when I can get the same synth for 50. I do love turning knobs, but theres a point where you have to be practical.
I'd like someone to make a decent small form chromatic keyboard sampler, but it would have to have ANALOG filters and effects. That's the point here I think, anything fully digital, like the upcoming "Wofi" sampler, is doable with an ipad and a midi controller with extensive sliders/pads/dials. DAWS themselves are samplers after all. So would I pay the $600 for what is essentially a dedicated midi controller to an integrated VST? [Doubt it] Assign your VST's, don't fool around with a mouse while playing them. Take an hour out to assign everything to physical controls and you will feel just as good about playing them as with hardware digital. This way VST's are comparable and usually better, due to more flexibility and actually even more control. I don't have any digital synths, used to have some hybrids and "virtual" analogs, (Korg Poly 800, Ms2000) and have very few hardware digital effects, though some are so quirky and unique sounding that I have to keep them (Boss GT-6 for example, and some old Behringer 19inch rack unit I have modded to make go mad.) Happy enough with some VST emulations of analog synths to pad out the sound in the background. [Love some string synth emulations, so never tempted to buy the Waldorf Streichfett.] I have a lot of vintage and modern analog synths/amps/tape machines/effects. In a weird quirk of fate. One of my Analog keyboards is a Sequential Circuits Max. Great sounding polyphonic analog, but no dials or sliders, just a few buttons. And the only way to control parameters in real time is via an ipad app!! So you have an 80's analog synth being controlled by sliding your finger around on a device from 40 years later. Doesn't feel right. But here is a question? Does Vintage 80's 90's and early 2000's DIGITAL gear sound or perform better than VST's/Modern DIGITAL gear? -[My two cents, I'd say yes, I have used some early digital gear that sounds better. Has anyone else found this?]
If I want a nice synthesizer that does not depend on which OS I use, I gp with hardware. Why? Because Linux (yes, it's a kernel but whatever) and open source is my friend and it symbolizes freedom. By "freedom," I meant free to do what I want to do with software, such as studying and modifying source code. I prefer LV2 when it comes to softsynths though.
I just use my cellphone these days. It’s just as capable as any hardware, and is always with me. Koala is my MPC, MiRack is my modular, AUM is my audio interface, Synth One is my synthesizer, and Spotify is my record player to sample off of. My studio is in my pocket.
All vintage hardware here. That is my preference for inspiration and fun. I’ve been a computer programmer for 25 years and I don’t like to sit at a desktop computer to make music.
Use whatever works and whatever you can afford. Like Dennis in Jurassic Park once said, “See, nobody cares”
Hahaha I love it
Best answer so far. :)
And then he got eaten by a dinosaur. Take from that what you want... I do totally agree with you though.
perfect use of that quote lol
I use computers for work. By the end of the day I need to switch off, and not stare at a monitor for another 2/3 hours, getting distracted by emails. Hardware gives me an opportunity to use different skill-sets, and sit on the sofa and twiddle. Plus, you get LEDS on hardware, and everyone knows LEDS are cool...
Oh yeah, love the leds too!
Amen. Nothing kills my synth boner more than staring at a screen.
Another big factor: You do not own your DAW. You do not own your games on Steam, your digital music, or your copy of Adobe Photoshop. I don't like renting my tools 😊. I've been burned before with 3d software changing their EULA overnight. FL Studio is already showing signs of getting autodesk'd with their new cloud offerings.
knobs are cool too!
I think it comes down to the value of making music. Is a song a product? If so, use the least expensive and least inspiring (but maybe most efficient) tool to produce your product. Is a song art? This might lead to the use of inspirational works of art and inspiring workflows to create. Or... as for most people... is the act of making music what gives us joy? If so, we should use instruments, computers, and most importantly workflows that are a joy to use. Ultimately we shouldn't let anyone tell us what to like or dislike, and we shouldn't have to justify our choice of instruments (hardware or software). Music should be fun, and creative, and artistic, and a joy to make for most people, and THAT is priceless.
This!
You have always been a wise individual and inspiring performer.
@@OMA_Music_Official Thanks!
최고의 답변! 난 나의 즐거움을 위해 음악을 만든다. 신서사이저의 노브를 tweak하고 드럼머신 시퀀서에서 우연히 만들어지는 그루브를 즐기는 아티스트야. 난 사람들이 내 음악을 좋아하던 말던 관심이 없어. 난 더 많은 신서사이저가 시장에 나오면 좋겠어.
Espen Kraft does music which I find very little interesting if not at all, so everything he says goes there
I run a hybrid setup and feel there are more important things in life to pay attention to than Espen Kraft’s opinion or shenanigans. If you want to talk about scamming industries, talk about pharma to name one. Cheers
That is the worst advice ever. Let electronic music makers continue to look for scams in the synth market and not in the pharmaceutical market, about which they are not necessarily knowledgeable. These both industries are not consumer friendly.
🍻 Thank you 👏🏽
@@pikselis There was a time when musicians created songs about what was wrong with society… Great songs with very wise words. Pink Floyd for example… I’m not at all suggesting we should stop making music. But in case a musician has the desire to criticize the world in which he lives, there are more deserving targets than synth companies. Music can change minds, it can unite and inspire. However feel free to look for scams within the industry as well. There are a few to be found but most synth companies aren’t scammers. Cheers
@@pikselis I agree with that. Especially large, shareholder companies are guilty of milking the markets and maximize their profits. These companies even do this with the subcontractors they use. Meanwhile some of those companies are virtually monopolists. We all know these companies and use their products, but these companies are not really the same as the synth companies Espen Kraft indicated. And if there were ‘evil’ ‘scam’ companies working in the synthesizer industry, they likely wouldn’t stay afloat for long. Pricing for a product isn’t necessarily based on labour, parts and r&d plus a markup. Pricing often is based on what a company can charge and is weighted against the optimal profit. This is just free market capitalism, nothing evil. If there were only a few companies cornering the market, Espen would be correct. But there is so much choice and so many possibilities nowadays in the synthesizer market, one can easily pick another product and company. We have lots of choice, being hardware or software. There might even be too much choice for companies to survive. Bottom line, Espen Kraft is plainly wrong regarding his core arguments. At this time it’s hard to take his word we are being scammed by almost the entire industry, as he is suggesting, without any proof. It is just disingenuous.
As long as it is safe to buy some Doepfer modules I think that we’ll probably be okay. A granular sampler may just crap the bed one day after years 🤷♀️
Fundamentally.... Creating a beat on a computer with a mouse and playing a drum set is a whole different skill and talent and effort ... And various other aspects. If the outcome is what is the goal... Then that's a different argument. But you can't compare a computer to a Synth, especially when you are considering making live music.
I really like the Korg Minilogue XD concept of combining opensource software and Analogue. Makes this instrument limitlessly customizable while keeping a simple workflow for dialing in a sound
I think we are all aware what computers can do nowadays. I love gear, love pressing buttons and turning knobs. Whatever the price, I'll die happy. Hopefully not in debt.
Excellent take per usual! I tried watching Espen’s full argument so that I could form an opinion, but 40 seconds in I started thinking about how i would rather rewatch any of your videos - you never try to gatekeep, you’re enthusiastic about learning things and making mistakes, and you teach new techniques in a way that makes sense and never feels condescending. THAT’S the Internet personality I want to engage with. Thanks for doing things your way!
A vst in a box shouldn’t be as expensive as an equivalent analogue/vintage synth. There’s way more expensive stuff inside in the latter, as opposed to a relatively cheap processor etc in the first.
At least, that’s what I got out of Espen’s video. I agree. But maybe there’s a good reason for the high prices, would love to know why.
Exactoy
This just isn’t a good faith argument. Actual VST in a box products exist- 1010 Lemondrop/Fireball, Roland Compact, etc. and they’re priced accordingly. Simple electronics, simple manufacturing, simple distribution, simple repairs. And they’re great if you really only need a VST in a box. A gigging professional usually needs more than that. When you start factoring those things into every aspect of production, the value and the cost are real.
If you ask yourself what you need if you’re going on the road for 9 months as opposed to “why isn’t this marketed to me, the bedroom producer, like everything else”, an arranger style stage keyboard, which you can replace in any major city between sound check and curtains, starts making a lot of sense. Those things tend to be closer to a large VST library as opposed to “a VST” with many instruments, effects, sequencing, mixing, etc. The electronics to run all of that with very low latency without PC processing power to leverage, in depth control, fast program changes, isn’t trivial.
If you really want to join the discussion, build or at least price out a little 555 based oscillator and transistor filter. The individual parts that make up analog are not super expensive. It’s when it becomes increasingly complex, it can’t have problems during your performance, it has to comply with many different regulatory agencies all over the world, it has to be easy and quick to repair, have lots of connectivity, that every aspect of production starts going way up in price. And that’s true with analog or digital.
@@Tofupancho The 1010 lemondrop is indeed priced very reasonably. The same can be said about Blofeld, the new small Korgs etc. All under a thousand dollars. My gripe is with digital VA synths costing many thousands of dollars, that emulate analogue synths while costing the same (or more) as their analogue counterparts. Shouldn’t the emulations cost less because they are cheaper to make, or is that a false assumption?
@@carstenaltenaAlready asked, already answered. It’s kinda long for the sake of being thoughtful and polite. Tl dr- you’re crying about the existence of a handful of products that aren’t targeting you personally.
My 3rd Wave isn't getting replaced by a plugin any time soon. My TX802? Maybe. My Polybrute 12? Nope, though Diva and some other "analog" plugins sound amazing. The word "scammed"was great for Espen's clicks, but oddly I felt kind of scammed for clicking on it. I'm happy to see your thoughtful counter here. Thanks for that
@@calsynth nothing compares to that synth it’s very nice perfectcircuit. Has a demo unit out I literally played it for an hr once it’s gorgeous.
I vibe with this. The annoying to use, hard to program synths night as well be vsts haha
@@RickyTinez It's why DX7s never ever came back into fashion, even though the have true legend status. But JD-800s are pretty sought after.
No plugin compares any good hardware up until about 2010. One can say the bell tones of fm plugins are as good as the hardware, they’re close, but still no there. Evethring else is a broader margin. Not even the library based plugins compare the o hardware. Some close… and all things in context, but ultimately still no plugin compares.
@@RickyTinez Derreck May (string of life) used the most annoying to program instrument Ensoniq Mirage (not korg m1 like wrongly people think) to invent the music you are inspired today DetroitHouse, Rico IS ALL ABOUT THE SOUND, is proved even scientifically that humans remember the tone/sound as something unique to a track and not the same boring chord progressions that we have listen million of times in millions of tracks (that is truly annoying for the House/Techno audience)
The sound is produced by the circuitry (not the faceplate knobs””) now open your modern instruments and see what is inside NOTHING (small pcbs identical identical to behringer) and than open your MPC60 or the Expander and you will see that they are packed with circuitry and you need VOLTAGE A LOT to sound good there is no escape from this (the expander you owned and in my humble opinion did a great mistake to sell it).
You are very talented when you are in the ZONE and especially when you don’t try to be technical (or musically correct/ chord progression “knowledgeable”), you have still interesting ideas but i think in the last years there is a drop in terms of sound quality/depth in your tracks they sound more of the shelf cliché and i think that the reason is your complete switch from the superb sounding machines like MPCs 1000/3000/60 & Oberheim Expanders to Digitakt & and boring Peak that thousand of other users are using with the same boring glassy novation sounds!!
You might think that your demos below are not technically chord progression correct “” but they are Superb performances and tunes that set you apart from the herd
my 2 cent as a person that is convinced you are a House Talent i recommend you to Stay Away from the stupid herd Cliché and “anal”bombardment about music theory just be your selfe with ought applying knowledge (ART IS SPIRITUAL NOT KNOWLEDGE), as the great Alan Whats used to say the western music is like a military march “1/4, 1/8, 1,16” it lacks swing””.
here is Ricky that sounded so good and stand apart from others, no rules no boring chord progression on the boring nord piano but just a Soul in the ZONE expressing his individual creativity with Superb deep sounding Machines👇🏻
th-cam.com/video/fDOC364rECE/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Can we get a MPC60II + JV1080 video? Asking for a friend lol! I love my hardware synths, it inspires me to create!
I second that request
@@RoomAtTheTopStudio That's a third from me - my JVs and MPCs are my fave boxes!
Ricky on a JV-1080? Man, that would be great! I also have the JV and some samplers, so I could learn a lot.
Just sold my XP80 with a little seller’s remorse. But that’s the way it goes…. “I guess?”
@@MKJ2DAY You did well. JV is part of the Roland Cloud.
Oh and I have BOTH hardware and software, and they both have their place.You still have limitations with software, depending on how YOU use it. One person might never explore anything besides what they NEED. I hear a LOT of opinion and subjectivity, NO facts..
It just dawned on espin that digital synths (which have been made for DECADES by every leading synth manufacturer and have accounted for the groundbreaking breakthroughs in sound design and spawned whole genres of music) are purpose built computers, housed in purpose built hardware user interfaces running purpose built software? REALLY?… that just dawned on him… NOW.?… The digital Dx’s, Jv’s, Supernova’s, Nords, Viruses, Casios, Akai’s, Korgs, Ensoniqs, EMUs, etc. etc.were all just cool sounding analog synths and groove boxes to him? *sigh*… the internet was supposed to make us smarter.
~~~~ ( good vibrations to you Ricky)
Behringer can't brick my hardware overnight with a new EULA like Steam, Autodesk, Adobe, and Maxon did to many artists. FL Studio is already on that path with their cloud rentals. I much prefer not to rent my instruments.
As someone who makes VSTs and is working on analog modeling, digital recreations aren’t there yet despite what people online say. People on forums used to say that the access virus rev A made all analogue synths obsolete. Everyone thinks that the technology of their age is the be all and end all and improvements can not be made. They are wrong.
What I usually do is that I make my sounds in vsts while working on a song and when I am done I remake the parts as close as I can get on analog synths. I’m always pleased with the results.
Hardware is sick and inspiring. Software is sick and inspiring. Maybe a little mix and match. Just do what you like and what makes you happy!
It depends what kind of synths. Some small synths are a "vst in a box", and some more expensive synths are more like electronic art.
I totally agree with you. I purchased a Roland System 8, not because it sounded better than my DAW plugins but because,
I wanted that hands on approach to sound design again. And it works perfectly for me.
The System 8 also looks super cool with all of the green LED's 👍
Started with hardware… went to software… and now mostly back to hardware… why. Workflow, playability, creativity. Making music with a mouse SUCKS
'Espen Kraft said you got scammed. I disagree.' - Then you immediately go ahead and pretty much agree with Espen on the 3rd Wave. Neither the Microwave software or the PPG software compare at all to the 3rd Wave, how can you even suggest that? Have you or Espen even used your 3rd Wave? Do you understand how much of a synth you actually have there, and what its capabilities even are? There is NO 3rd Wave plugin equivalent. I tried to explain this to Espen on his channel, and he just doubled down and continued to claim it's a scam. Yes, there's lots of overpriced synths, let's talk about that instead of spout BS and misinformation, mostly for controversy and out of desperation for views. Espen's channel quickly went into my 'Don't Recommend Channel' list after his BS.
What age are you? 5.... Jesus
@@scottfarrell1906 I reckon you are not familiar with State Azure? If anything, I value his opinion a lot more than your lowball age ‘argument’. If you want to argue, bring valid arguments.
@@scottfarrell1906 What do you mean? I wasn't subscribed to Espen anyway, but I don't have time or want to be recommended channels that lie or spread BS. Do you think that's childish? I don't. I use YT a lot, and I'd rather have the algorithm feed me content that is valuable.
I would be inclined to agree with you, based on demos of the third wave. Yet, many people echo the sentiment that the software, even the old PPG, sounds equivalently good. I’m skeptical. I find the Behringer Pro-800 sounds better than all the Prophet 5 soft synths I have. But hey - hearing is subjective.
@@embersandash The Waldorf PPG software DOES sound as good as the original (well almost, you still can't recreate the analog filter perfectly), that's not my point. The 3rd Wave is not just a PPG clone, that's only a very small part of what the 3rd Wave can do. It's also a fully modern wavetable synth, a very capable VA, a sampler and 4 sequencers per layer...(actually the hardware is essentially 4x 3rd Wave's). Again, there is NO software of the 3rd Wave, it doesn't exist and there's nothing even remotely close to it. This isn't a subjective opinion, this is a fact and Espen would have you believe his BS instead.
"why buy a hardware synth when you could get a vst" is a complete troll take, and anyone who has touched both knows that. There are many legit problems with the current synth industry but this is not one of them.
Maybe one day when Espen gets a hardware synth he’ll understand
I STRONGLY disagree. Espen framed Sequential - who have best practice MIDI implementation, a super intuitive, user friendly interface, knobs that are tight and feel like a Bugatti, space for 1000 presets and an outstanding service that still provides Apple M3 apps for vintage Poly Evolver sound design as well as spare parts and manuals.
But ... R&D and service comes at a cost, same as premium hardware and processors that last a lifetime. You could of course steal ideas and fire your whole R&D department like Behringer did, declare plagiarism a business model and produce synths in sweatshops in China, with only one noisy mono connector and no MIDI implementation whatsoever, that break after 3 months ...
This doesn't mean though that "Behringer is showing what these machines truly cost" like Espen claimed or that people who invest a lot in development and quality like Melbourne Instruments with their motor faders or Black Corporation with the Kijimi with one LFO per knob (which is still unique in a poly synth) are ripping you off.
Also take some pedal makers like UA or Eventide that did in fact provide their effects as a VST before they put it in a metal enclosure: I still love the little boxes and connecting them to my little synths. I dislike clicking on tiny dropdowns and dragging virtual wires with my mouse in my free time ... I do that 8 hours a day anyway and it doesn't feel very creative or inspiring at all.
My experience is that there is a certain immediacy that is lost when controlling a VST from a midi controller. There is a disconnect of sorts, you can feel it. Playing music is touching something, in Spanish the word used is "toca" when referring to playing guitar, which means to "touch" the guitar. Touching an instrument, even if its a VA hardware synth, is a certain experience. It's a piece of electronics with an electro magnetic field and it has it's own operating system and workflow.
Value, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It always had been and always will be. If you spend money on a synth (or anything else) and it brings you joy, then the value is there for you. If you buy a synth (or anything else) and it brings you frustration or disappointment, then no matter the price, the value isn't there for you. And no matter the price or hype, the tool will not make you better at the task at hand. No synth (hardware or software) will make your compositions better. Limitations may breed creativity for some. Vast possibilities may breed creativity for others. None of this matters. All that matters is the art you create and the experience you have while creating that art.
Well said!
Nonsense. Value is in the hands of business owner who wants you to think that it is in the eyes of the beholder.
@@pikselis hahaha
I love it when musicians fight and bicker about nonsense that doesn't matter, instead of creating music in those times. TH-cam has polluted musicians journeys.
The main reason I avoided ever getting on social media (besides youtube) was my experience on synth message boards in the late 90s.
At first it was fun to engage with like minded individuals online, but eventually it devolved into wasting time talking about the craft instead of actually developing it.
Professionally trained, amateur musician here: I made music casually with DAWs for about a decade, had plenty of VST libraries, made more than a few complex productions for myself but never really enjoyed it much. Definitely a creativity sapper and tiring for a weekend warrior. Hunched over a keyboard and getting mouse-hand cramps is not fun!
When I switched to physical synths a year ago the veil of creativity was lifted. I've since become a budget collector of physical hardware and making music every day. I still use the DAW to capture the source from my rig, maybe apply some effects or additional layers.
But there is something about capturing authentic sound from source audio - physically separating the production from the DAW that makes it work. Maybe a placebo affect, who knows - but it works and keeps me making music.
All is good again 🎶
@@Silent_Stillness Absolutely agree, and just one reason why I use a MIDI controller grid with Ableton. I'd never previously made the connection between DAWs being visually intensive, and producers listening with their eyes instead of what they should be using to hear - their ears.
Thought provoking comment, thank you. 🙂
@@2112jonr The rabbit hole goes much deeper than that! There's also the issue of decoupling where you're looking at from having your hands in your field of view when looking at a monitor, which profoundly interferes with the feeling of immersion. Having a quality MIDI controller surface can significantly help the feeling of immersion, but fundamentally being reliant on a PC control scheme implies that you won't be able to completely break away from having to look at the screen and interact with a keyboard and mouse. The problem is not that there's a screen involved, it's much more complex than that... If you're interested in this subject you might want to have a look at the first video I released, it has the word "Meta" in the title. Enjoy!
I’m selling my grand piano for an oxygen 8 and vst , what would I miss ?
This analogy doesn't really work, the things the guy was talking about are literally identical in the box
You need to sell the grand piano and get a Hydrasynth, that's the law.
@@NamelessSmile True , but the user experience isn’t , which is what I’m alluding to.
@@H4NDCRAFTED it's often much better instead!
Your “piano” is just a vst copy 🙄
Espen is trolling the synth community to create engagement :)
It seemed to have worked LoL
Classic move
He’s a content creator who makes money off of clicks, and controversy creates clicks. It’s as transparent as that and I, for one, find it distasteful to say the least.
@@Rayterni Thank him for smearing the tiny & great synth creators who barely survive? I think not.
@@TrottelheimerRight? Groove Synthesis is a TINY company that is local to me. The fact that they’ve managed to bootstrap the 3rd Wave into existence out of nothing is a miracle! And then to compare them to Behringer as some sort of proof that their product is an overpriced scam is patently offensive.
Every hardware synth has an analog output section that can possibly be saturated. + recording hardware doesn’t always sound the same as bouncing virtual synth. You can record the Waldorf through a compressor that has transformers & no it won’t be same as bouncing a plug. You can Bruce Swedien it & record the synth through a mic from a speaker.
Where SOME vendors DO scam you is when it comes to providing decent updates:
1) bugs that should be fixed on time, because in the old days we would send it in for repairs, and
2) selling incomplete products to get that lower TTM and/or give the illusion that a product is being expanded even further, if after the launch you (need to) prioritize new product development and sales.
I don’t think the scam-problem is in the way a synth is generating its sound waves, as digital is as electronic as a so-called (vintage) analog synth. Just an algorithm or circuitry producing pulses that get somehow amplified and put out a speaker… moving air.
And yeah, the preferred flow wherein one is best suited to produce these kind of air waves is what you pay for.
My point exactly. Even if a particular synth _is_ just a VST in a box, the interface for that "VST in a box" makes a huge difference. The workflow is different, you get more tactile feedback, and you can adjust more things at once than you can with a mouse or even a typical USB MIDI controller. Oh, and it's a lot easier to get hardware synths to interact with other hardware synths over DIN-5 MIDI, since you don't need a host device like you do with USB MIDI and you don't have to do any routing configuration - just plug-in, set your channels and go.
But at the same time, use what you like, not what people tell you to.
I'm on the side of what gives me the most fun while allowing me to pay the bills and put food in the belly.
kwazy wabbits trying to have phun !!!!
I think my issue with what Espen said is that hardware users are being "scammed". Scamming, to my mind, is tricking someone into giving them money and receiving nothing in return. I may be wrong but people who buy a 3rd Wave synth are fully aware of what they are getting in return for their hard-earned money. And that is what they want. So be it. They are not stupid. Espen has gotten pretty salty and irritating over the last few years. That's why I unsubscribed awhile back. I was there for the vintage synth talk and all I was starting to get was preachy commentary and bad PSB knockoffs. No thank you. BTW, great content Ricky.
The 3rd Wave is hybrid synth, 24 analogue filters (1 per voice), that doesn't come cheap.
All his vintage gear he sold, he sold for market value, isn't that scamming due to highly inflated prices for some specific gear?
Isn't he now scamming people due to the limited appeal and actual value of said product, other than for collectors?
I agree, this scam argument presupposes that individuals who buy hardware synths are naive dupes- classic grump stance . We ARE stupid but it's not the synth's fault. The synth is pure- how dare you, Espen.
A scam in this context would be something like if Korg claimed that the hardware version of the Korg Modwave sounded superior to the Plug in version.
@@DankePlacehow could selling something for market value be scamming someone? That makes zero sense. If he *created* the inflated prices, then maybe you have a good point
I don't feel he was saying that his picks were what he felt were simply VSTs in an external box (although in some cases that was his gripe). In contrast, his pick for a synth you should get was the Hydrasynth, a product he intimated is a really good VST in a box. His list focused more on the value of the product, as in if a product was relatively expensive but didn't really provide any features that you can't get in something costing much less.
I unsubscribed from Espen. I came here to learn about synths, not hate them.
Spot on about workflow! Oddly enough, my main instrument is pipe organ, so it's harder for me to get into the zone with dragging a mouse around a screen. Being able to use physical controls, as I do on the organ, is where I find my workflow increasing by a LOT. Good convo - thanks, Ricky!!
So this isn't Epsom Salt's 1st attempt on the same subject, he live streamed the same context 3 months ago and that only got him 5K views.
I mean give the guy a prize for effort at least.
My Yamaha Motif, the ancient 20 years old Motif. So, is pretty much a VST in a hardware box. But not switching on a computer and using a synth is infinitely more satisfying than clicking notes in a DAW's piano roll
Even if they are “just vsts in a box” they are dedicated/optimized units that will always perform with low latency. So in away, they do sound or feel better.
User-friendly or not - it's still a scam. A synthesiser that is built with cheaper digital components must cost less. End of story.
@@pikselis What about the work of engineers and programmers? If the product is just components, then try assembling it yourself.
@@MaxZorin8 Both analog and digital synthesizers need to be assembled. I have strong doubts that this is the reason why digital synths cost too much. I have a strong belief that it is convenient for the manufacturers that you think that way.
@@pikselis you echo what Espen misleads people with, but you have zero understanding how these products come to market.
The man hours required to code anything in the digital world, you dismiss and make out like the value of said product is diminished.
I bet you own a high end phone and think nothing of it.
@@pikselis I'm sorry, if you think you can use existing code from somewhere else, or did you just imply Groove Synthesis copied code from their existing products which none existed?
You really thought this one out right?
To answer your question at the end, a mix of both is key for me. Being able to use older samplers to get texture and character is great but building out beats in Ableton is so much more fun for me. I tend to run everything I make back through gear as well for even more sauce!
I disagree about not buying hardware for the sound and just for workflow (which is ofc a large benefit).
But saying it‘s not about the sound, is, at least from my POV, complete nonsense.
I buy hardware synths because they sound better at what they do compared to the vst imitations (if those are even available, for all but one of my synths, there isn’t even an emulation). By definition, they are the real thing.
Characterful, organic, warm sound is what I‘m looking for and analog and hybrid synths do that best.
I also love this quote from Mike Dean from the SOS article:
„“I have about 50 keyboards. All of them have been upgraded to work with MIDI. They give me real sounds. They sound far better than soft synths. I just spent $15,000 on an ARP 2600, and it sounds so good, it paid for itself in a week. It has nice, warm distortion and wonderful oscillators. I have the Behringer clone and it sounds terrible, and the Arturia version, and while it sounds good, it doesn’t sound like the real thing.
“I also just spent $50,000 on a Yamaha CS80, and it sounds great, and nothing plays like it. Nothing has the same polyphonic aftertouch. I also bought a Roland Jupiter 8 this year, for $20,000. People talk shit about these instruments. When you have one, you can hear the difference with the imitations. The fact that the real synths are sometimes out of tune is what makes them so cool. It’s funky. It gives them character! I also use soft synths a lot, I’m not against them. But soft synths are like singers with Auto‑Tune. They sound very sterile.”
Dean is particularly a fan of Moog synths, and explains: “The Moog synths I use the most are the Matriarch, the Grandmother, and the Voyager for my signature bass sound. I have been to the Moog factory a few times, looking at prototypes and trying things out. The Voyager, Juno 106, Korg Triton and two laptops are my core setup live. One laptop is for playback and the other for sound sources, like my guitar sounds and stuff like that. But when I work in my studio in the box, I use mostly samplers, like Native Instruments Kontakt, and I also use a lot of Arturia stuff, for organs and so on.”“
I’d love to be able to sit in front of a computer knowing what I have in my head and which knobs to turn on a vst. But I love to explore ideas and using both hands on a physical piece of equipment. I love the more unstable nature of voltage through analog gear and the feeling of playing an actual instrument.
You inspired me to get a pro 3 myself and I still have to see the day where I feel disappointed with that purchase.
Thanks for all the inspiration Ricky!
For machines that have fully baked, usable firmware, an instrument will endure as it is forever, or until the hardware dies. Meanwhile the plugin equivalent is likely going to stop working at some point. Things like my MPC that seem to require periodic updates, and demand to reauthorize software online randomly are an issue.
This is why I got into dawless. Computers are great for recording songs you already have finished. But it's not easy to play a computer the way I can a guitar, and follow the breadcrumbs to a cool tune. I've come up with so much on the guitar that way.
@@MoeShinola1 I was broke had a daw and used it for years then the headaches started then soon after I gave up the daw which was really hard and started to slowly start learning the real way
Lol this is an absolute COMPLETE apples and oranges thing you brought up. Synths are so much more similar with the vsts than comparing guitar playing and a daw.😅
Actually, for some people, it is very easy to "follow the breadcrumbs to a new tune" using just software. It's ok - it's not for everyone. I actually find it much easier and faster than using hardware.
That said, I'm literally playing hardware (GS e7 through a Mercury X via my DAW with a Sonsig ACE chorus effect up first before the Mercury X) as I type this... I love using both, even in combo. It's fun!
Not a fan of drama content to be honest
One thing a HW synth will do is to continue to work even when the computer OS and drivers change or become obsolete and incomparable.
Behringer makes 'vintage' synths for £200. Why don't companies like Oberheim or Sequential make VSTs with an optional dedicate MIDI controller (with or without keys) that people can pay, say, £500 for? Why not make these new synths modular? I can buy the VST then, if I want, buy the controller box and later on the keyboard. They can all fit together like a synth kit.
Sure, the MIDI controller box won't have the hardware inside to run the VST but that can be an add on module too, like a Scope DSP board or something. It is possible to do and it would lead more people, like me, to buy synths from the legacy companies instead of 3rd party VST remakes like Arturia.
Just a thought.
There is also a possible latency issue. VSTs triggered by MIDI controllers can lag up to 10ms, whereas hardware synths could respond within 1ms if designed properly.
Every time I’ve ever bought a new, pretty much top-o-the-line laptop, I have consistently been amazed at how quickly it gets overwhelmed with plugins, fan running super high. I don’t think there’s a fan in any synth I own, at least not that I’ve heard. They do what they do and I don’t have to decide what to sacrifice or how many voices it can have. It has it or it don’t. I can update their os, or not, and it isn’t going destroy the other synths if I do upgrade the os.
I haven't seen a synth that mimics the sound and workflow of a Solar 42F, so I won't be turning that in for a VST.
a VST also doesn't ship with a computer, which it needs to work.
So my Arturia MiniBrute is a scam?My whole damn life is a scam! 😞
3rd Wave does have analog filters. That said, "in a mix", you'd be unlikely to hear that, vs digital equivalent.
if your hardware synth has any analog section at all, analog vcf, vca, digitally controlled vco... then the vst version is only an approximation of the hardware. the vst may be better for programming and presets and reproducibility, but it will never beat the hardware.
All I have ever wanted was Omnisphere in a hardware unit. Thoughtfully designed and laid out, knob per function as much as is realistic. That would be the great. I know you can do hardware control over Omnisphere but yea - it's not quite the same.
@@NiElsir virus ti is almost there
Waldorf Iridium or Quantum? You can layer samples with a bunch of other very powerful sound engines and it's multitimbral
I think that there's a lot to this idea. I wonder if you had a MIDI controller/keyboard that was designed from the ground up to interface with [instrument X] running on a PC processor on board, would that get you 90%, 98%, 100% there?
Dedicated DPSs will always outperform your "in-the-box" capabilities, to the point where the same algorithm can have drastically different resource requirements.
I opened my Yamaha CS-80 and I couldn´t find any computer inside.
There was lots of cables etc...
you can't forget that's the hardware also depend on the quality of the converters that's are in. that's, to me represent a huge difference with the vst. Hardware instruments are clearly about the workflow for sure but also about the electronics composants that made them.
Being a huge analog nerd, I still do a bunch of stuff digitally. I mainly work hybrid. Some of it is just down to cost, however most of it is just because I will not use analog just out of spite, but if it has some benefit to it and it is something I can fit in my budget, I will go analog all day long. It goes the same way for digital, like some people have 128 analog VCOs hooked up to their 128 analog filters and so on, still I am limited to the like 20 analog VCOs I have in my setup right now, and if I need to generate a sound that require 128 VCOs, I will in most cases use something digital, or just track 12,8 VCOs 10 times. Like most of the digital revolution comes down to cost and convenience, however in some cases the quality takes the backseat. Like you can not argue that a cassette sounds better than a CD when it comes to like noise level, still the cassette have some advantages that people seemed to forget rather quickly. As modern vinyl is just mastered from digital files anyway, the whole point of a great sounding analog format is sort of lost in my opinion, and I will rather pick the noiseless in comparison format, CD. That being said, I still buy and listen to vinyl, however as a DJ, the expense of buying 50-100$ records did not make much sense when I can just pick up a track in WAV at beatport or bandcamp for 3-4$, and that way gain the ability to get a way greater catalog of music at the same price, and not be as restrained in terms of what music I can pick up, as most music that is released will be released as WAV. For digital synths, I still like having the hardware to work with, like running a VST generating sound in the same project as I am mixing in, has become a no-no for me personally. I would rather have a standalone unit that I can plug into my analog effects, and not waste my valuable CPU power. I do not really mind clicking the mouse rather than turning a knob, however I will always run the audio through a cable unless I am working on mastering, mixing or remixing other producers work. Like when it is in the box, I like to keep it there, but putting it in the box is half the process in my opinion.
Espen Kraft is just fishing for "engagement" on his videos. Nothing to see there, just move on.
Sad too, cuz he was providing some good content on vintage synths and 80s music.
Just like you did with your comment, and just like I did with mine.
And it worked.
I stopped watching him a couple years back because he felt like he was getting way too cranky and negative. Rather the opposite of Ricky here.
Kind of like how Synth Punk did the same thing in regard to modular synths.
I pretty much exclusively use Phase Plant for all my synthesis because of how much power it has. When I just want to mess around, have fun, or even just to refresh the creative well I like to play on my modular or my DX7. There's a place for both but I think if you're just getting started it can be beneficial to look at software first before you start spending a ton of money on hardware. Make sure you enjoy it first and then start to get the things that make you more creative, improve your workflow, or just make you happy.
I don't know who Espen Kraft is and I don't care. All I know is I received my hydrasynth yesterday and it's the best piece of gear I have purchased in a long time. Also, I would like this Kraft person to show me some vst which sounds as good as the subharmonicon or the kobol.
I've been completely software based for the past 20+ years and I'm overwhelmed by everything I have bought over the years. I'm making a transition to hardware little by little for the exact reasons you stated in this video. It's ok if it's essentially a VST in a box, as long as the hardware is designed around it exactly and with high quality.
I was about to sell my MPC Live when AKAI dropped the 3.0 update. Now I use it every day. And it's just for the arrangement view, even as basic as it is. So why don't I just use a DAW if it's clearly the "DAW in a box" feel what gets me going? Because When I turn on the MPC I'm immediately making music. No latency, no driver problems, no popups, no email, plus I can get really fast with the buttons and the shift functions. If there's some sound design process I can't do on the MPC, I do it on an Ipad or on the computer with a DAW, yes, but then I make a sample pack and go back to the MPC.
The main thing I still do on the computer is finishing touches, mixing and mastering.
when creating I get lost in my DAW, just end up not knowing what im doing or where im going. on the other hand I have to push hard to get my little DAW-less set up to do what i want (mc101+circuit tracks/rhythm) getting these 3 different (and limited) elements to "sing" together is hard but always more rewarding. and once I record what ive made into the CPU I know exactly what bells and whistles i want to add to actually finish a tune
Creativity changes when doing a track in the computer compared to a standalone midi setup. Some embrace it and thrive. Others not so much.
Im not creative with a computer and a daw. Everything comes out generic, overproduced and boring. Put me in front of a mpc and im suddenly not so picky about everything. I mix and arrange in reaper because its to much of a hassle on the mpc. Something about turning nobs, punching pads etc shifts the focus for me.
There's also the value question. I only ever bought 2 new synths (Nord modular G2 and a Monomachine) everything else 2nd hand and in most cases, if I've sold something I've got the money back or often more than i paid. Software just gets lost eventually or doesn't work anymore, maybe you can trade the license for a few dollars maybe not.... The vst in a box things is a valid criticism though. As a long time MPC user i was interested in the new wave of devices but when trying one, just couldn't quite understand why is choose that over a laptop
I absolutely 100% okay and prefer a “VST in a box” when it has a great UI.
I dont think speed should be the focus for people that are not earning a living by making music to deadlines. Some gear "feels" more fun to use. It matters very little how long it takes if every moment of the process is fun. If you get that buzz from a DAW good, if you get it from a chaos pad good.
Thanks for this grown-up, measured take, Ricky. I'm a friend of his and a big fan of Espen's music (and a fellow 80s survivor). I appreciate what you added to the discussion here. Cheers, man!
I'm completely new to making music and ended up with a syntakt and now a digitakt 2. I tried Ableton, but when I already spend 8 hours every day staring at a screen writing code, I wanted something far less distracting, tactile and new to interact with.
Maybe one day i'll revisit a DAW and plugins if I feel like the limitations of hardware are getting in the way, but until then -- there's plenty for me to learn and do
I have an A-88 fully weighted keyboard, and tons that aren't fully weighted. Pianos and Rhodes sound so much better to me when I play the A-88. Like, we know it's only MIDI data, it can't affect sound. Of course, you may hit the keys in a way that becomes more dynamic with a fully weighted, but it's just such a good example of how we feel is so important for how we perceive the music we play. Since I enjoy it much more, I play much more. These things matter.
I could never afford hardware synths when I was in my 20's back in the 90's, so software-based recording in DAWs with VSTs was the "solution to all of my problems." But it opened up a whole new subset of problems. I had to have the latest and greatest versions of everything. I constantly had to upgrade either my PC or laptop. I went through at least 5 audio interfaces. That gets old real quick. So now I just use vintage boss drum machines, Roland boutique synths, pocket operators, Behringer clones, a keystep 37, and a Tascam digital 8-track. I have a Juno-DS88 for big glass pads and pianos. I only use the DAW for mixing and mastering. When I push record on that Tascam, shit gets real... That's the way a recording should be to me.
yeah, would introduce a third option: ipads with a BT midi controller. they brigde this gap, make it tactile and are exploratory in nature. soundwise they are on par with vsts. so, I think this is the best right now, at least for me.
If you can make music with a spoon, well, do it. Only the result matters. Only what you want to do matters.
I’m a heavy DAW user but I couldn’t create something without synths, without hardware. The touch and feel is part of the creative process and hardware is so valuable.
Sitting at a computer is "work" like my day job. When I create with synths it never feels like work. This is worth the money because - on the weekend I don't want to be anywhere near a mouse or keyboard.
Learned to write music on a computer. I wrote a lot of music on the computer. Then I got drawn into hardware and I stopped making music. Now, years later, I'm selling my hardware and hoping I can refind the music. To each their own but I wish I stayed in the box.
so, heres my oppinion on the subject: hardware synths dont speed up anything but for me, my microfreak sounds better than any plugin just because i put the work into it to put all the good samples in there which was pretty time consuming but worth it for all the fun im getting now. because hardware is more fun and also more useful in a live environment and also theres synthesizers that just sound better than plugins. period.
tldr: hardware got a unique sound and is more fun but its not neccessarily faster because of the time it takes to set it up
Instruments are inspiring. Vst’s can be inspiring, but there is nothing like a cutoff knob driving an acidline through a distortion.
I love noodling on my synths, writing stuff with vst’s and then just go back noodling and experimenting
I literally didn't know who this guy was, but now I do thanks to you. Guess his job is done.
Interesting point. I tend not to use software synths on PC:s because I find it uninspiring to click around with a mouse when creating sounds. However, I've found a halfway house in the form the Zynthian platform, which is basically a Raspberry Pi in a box, running (free) plugins. So far it's just like a PC from a couple of years back. But ethe device has four knobs and a touchscreen with its own graphic layout, so it feels more like a hardware synth. For me it tips the balance, and being all based on open source software means I can actually make changes to the system if I really want to which is a big bonus.
Hardware for me is about work flow and inspiration. I find engaging with something that is physical with knobs is so much easier for me to create instead of clicking everything.
I appreciate those companies that don't go overboard with prices. The problem is us who are willing to pay a fortune for products that should cost half as much.
The Arturia Minifreak, soundwise, is pretty much the same on the VST as on the desktop synth. I could even go as far as to say the VST is more powerful because it's easier to access certain things or visualize soundwaves, etc. But the fact remains, when I'm stuck making music I don't like in my usual workflow (Ableton, vsts, midi keyboard), I go to the basic Minifreak+Digitakt+Extra synth desktop, dawless workflow and I just jam for hours on end, and that's how I find I've made my fav tracks, without exception, and it also gets me out of that rut and pushes me forward.
Really love the idea that outboard gear is about giving yourself permission to ignore the distractions
But in a sense this also exists in software, like are there any bedroom/laptop producers who hit the 8-track ceiling given by Ableton Lite, for instance? And if they do, won't they be motivated to get into resampling and bouncing too?
When I bought my Roland system 8 hardware.i got told by some of the synth community that I can buy it from Roland Cloud as a VST and I’ve just wasted £1200! I do have both now,if I’m doing live jams I’ll use the hardware,if I’m Composing something in my DAW I will use the VST.also making patches on hardware is more indulging IMO
I love the idea of the sheer power a DAW with VSTs and whatnot can have, but there's three big reasons why I prefer a physical/hardware device - first is tactile experience, which is a massive thing for me. The second is the limitations that the device imposes can help with analysis paralysis, and not having six bajillion things to choose from. The third? It allows you to "unplug" from a lot of the other things typically attached to a computer, and lets my brain focus on what's in front of it, and get into the thick of it, and have fun.
At the end of the day, Espen's goal was to make a rage bait video, and he did exactly that. The logic doesn't matter here, it's just sh*t throwing.
I don't think this is the case. We shouldn't always think the worst about such statements.
in a world of endless possibilities, limitations can really spark creativity... serum could do all my moog (grandmother) can do, however id never even consider making similar sounds in serum... the moog just kinda guides me - and that's what I love It for.
Well let's look at other products: For example, the operating system on a mac is included. Logic Pro costs a few hundred dollars (?) A high-end Macbook Pro is what, $6,000 now?
There will always be a romance between creators and hardware gear. It not only a process but a feeling. I think that’s partly what people pay for. Form and function, and a feeling.
Having just come down from my studio after a little synth jam I can safely say that hardware is the only way to go if you want improvisational fun. You just can’t reach over and tweak some knobs on different units simultaneously in software. Plus finding all those little sweet spots when you explore settings just can’t be beat.
VSTs in a box? Yes. I bought a Korg Modwave MKII not too long ago. But with it came a coupon for ModWave Native VST for $50. Why would I keep the almost $800 synth when I can get the same synth for 50. I do love turning knobs, but theres a point where you have to be practical.
I'd like someone to make a decent small form chromatic keyboard sampler, but it would have to have ANALOG filters and effects.
That's the point here I think, anything fully digital, like the upcoming "Wofi" sampler, is doable with an ipad and a midi controller with extensive sliders/pads/dials. DAWS themselves are samplers after all. So would I pay the $600 for what is essentially a dedicated midi controller to an integrated VST? [Doubt it]
Assign your VST's, don't fool around with a mouse while playing them. Take an hour out to assign everything to physical controls and you will feel just as good about playing them as with hardware digital. This way VST's are comparable and usually better, due to more flexibility and actually even more control.
I don't have any digital synths, used to have some hybrids and "virtual" analogs, (Korg Poly 800, Ms2000) and have very few hardware digital effects, though some are so quirky and unique sounding that I have to keep them (Boss GT-6 for example, and some old Behringer 19inch rack unit I have modded to make go mad.)
Happy enough with some VST emulations of analog synths to pad out the sound in the background. [Love some string synth emulations, so never tempted to buy the Waldorf Streichfett.]
I have a lot of vintage and modern analog synths/amps/tape machines/effects.
In a weird quirk of fate. One of my Analog keyboards is a Sequential Circuits Max. Great sounding polyphonic analog, but no dials or sliders, just a few buttons. And the only way to control parameters in real time is via an ipad app!! So you have an 80's analog synth being controlled by sliding your finger around on a device from 40 years later. Doesn't feel right.
But here is a question? Does Vintage 80's 90's and early 2000's DIGITAL gear sound or perform better than VST's/Modern DIGITAL gear? -[My two cents, I'd say yes, I have used some early digital gear that sounds better. Has anyone else found this?]
Absolut agree with Synthesizers, but Hardware FX like Eq, Compressors, Delays...? And did wie really need 142 EQ from Waves or UAD?
I'm a hobbyist and since I got some hardware I never use Ableton
It's super unsatisfying compared to using gear
If I want a nice synthesizer that does not depend on which OS I use, I gp with hardware. Why? Because Linux (yes, it's a kernel but whatever) and open source is my friend and it symbolizes freedom. By "freedom," I meant free to do what I want to do with software, such as studying and modifying source code.
I prefer LV2 when it comes to softsynths though.
When using the Elektron Digitone vs Digitone Keys, same engine but the experience is totally different.
I just use my cellphone these days. It’s just as capable as any hardware, and is always with me. Koala is my MPC, MiRack is my modular, AUM is my audio interface, Synth One is my synthesizer, and Spotify is my record player to sample off of. My studio is in my pocket.
All vintage hardware here. That is my preference for inspiration and fun. I’ve been a computer programmer for 25 years and I don’t like to sit at a desktop computer to make music.