That's the issue here, he is trying too hard to piss people off, it was only like 2 weeks ago that he made a video on how he deals with trolls, yet here he is trolling a whole bunch of people, without even getting the prices of the synths right. I don't think anyone tried to gaslight him when he owned all that vintage gear, but when someone invests in something new, according to him it's now a scam. He can think what ever he wants, doesn't make it true though.
Lol I just got my OBX8 when Espen released his video. It was a dream of mine to own an Oberheim it's been great using it. I could use a VST, and I do but I just want hardware. It makes it more fun and I can feel what I'm playing more.
@@matthewcassette I got my 3rd Wave around a month ago, it was a shock to me looking at all this money I had spent, this had nothing to do with Espen or his video, then when I really sat down with it, I was marveling at how great a job they did with it, then it confirmed I made the right decision for the music I enjoy making. That's all that matters and I don't care what Espen thinks, but he cares what he thinks.
@@DankePlace The 3rd Wave is Magic! Yeah, you can get some great wavetable sounds from VST's, and there MAY be little difference in sound (?) (not really convinced of that) but it just FEELS DIFFERENT playing my 3rd Wave!!! It's like putting a vinyl record on a Technics 1200 or pressing play on Spotify. They both "seemingly" get you to the same destination, but the real deal just FEELS SO MUCH BETTER!! 😃
I was a classically trained pianist as a kid and my parents couldn't afford to get me a synthesizer. When I got older, I started buying (and building) synth gear and now I've got an amazing studio. I'm busy with a family and job, so I don't get to make music very often. But I love looking at and playing with my synths. It fulfills the deep longing I experienced as a child. You only live once!
I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. I think Miles is actually responding to this youtuber when he's not really concerned by the criticism. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on TH-cam who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leauder, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch. I'm not familiar with Miles Away's music, but after listening to what you did on ERICA's synth not long ago, I'm positive that Miles Away is a real artist and not an impostor.
Good point. Plus: All the VSTs will probably not work in some years anymore, at least if you use one of the 2 main operating systems (Microsoft, Apple).
@@Waldemar_la_Tendresse I'm curious, why would VSTs stop working if you use those OS's? I switched to Linux and ended up not having access to quite of few former VSTs (got some back with workarounds, but not all). I have the freedom to use older computers as I wish, sure, but I does limit software options.
I may be wrong, but I think Espen's video is dedicated to musicians on a budget. A lot of us (musicians or not) are feeling an economic crunch these days. Therefore, if music making is your goal there's a straight line between investment and music creation instead of thinking that you need an ancient piece of American muscle (like a T-Bird) to accomplish a work commute (metaphorical). If you are not a musician on a budget, you are 100% free to ignore or sling mud on Espen's video.
@@brianbergmusic5288 There are more than enough videos about incompatibilities and errors that occur with software and OS upgrades, you'll have to do it yourself. After all, companies make a living from selling upgrades. It should be self-explanatory that the initial price is not the final price.
I saw Espen Kraft's video earlier today. Although I'm a long-time fan of his, his video did make me kind of depressed. I just bought a Groove Synthesis Third Wave (desktop module) a few days ago, and I've been playing the heck out of it. In fact, your videos on the Third Wave are what largely inspired me to finally get this thing, and I LOVE this synth, so thank you very much for that. However, after seeing Espen's video earlier, it really made me feel like I might be a complete fool for spending money like that on hardware when I could just go back to software vst's, which is what I started with, many years ago. But then I realized a few things. Espen mentioned the Waldorf PPG vst and implied that its a good substitute that only costs around $30. I already HAVE the Waldorf VST and I NEVER USE IT. In fact, I only used it once, the day I purchased it. For whatever reason, it just does not inspire me. And to be clear, it isnt even in the same ballpark as the Third Wave, as far as features and the limateless possibilities from virtual analog, to wavetable, to user tables, to sampling, 4 part multitimbral, 24 analog filters, numerous high quality built in effects, knob per function control.... etc. I sit down with the 3rd Wave, and Im genuinely inspired. There is a reason I came back to making music after quitting for several years. That reason is because I bought my first hardware synth. I have a channel here on TH-cam called Realms Official Music where I uploaded some of it, but I'm not great at making youtube videos, and I haven't uploaded anything in a while. Im still using my hardware and making great tracks, but im just not releasing them because I do so many genres that not much of it fits together. Smooth Jazz, 80s horror, video game-y music, ambient.... It's too eclectic to make an album, so I released a couple songs here and there just as singles, but they dont get views. I'm sitting on all these tracks, and Im not sure what to do with them. Anyway, I really drifted topics there. VST's are great, but hardware synths are their own thing. It's a different inspiration, which results in different music. Your videos and music are excellent. Thank you for doing this very cordial, tasteful response video and Thank You for doing what you do.
Congratulations on your 3rd Wave. I have the keyboard and love it. I am glad there are companies like Groove Synthesis that build a quality, inspiring instrument and truly support their customers.
In the end, it doesn't matter what's inside the box with knobs and keys.. it's a hardware interface that gives instant access to tactile feedback and inspires exploring/creation.. this is what we should consider in the value of a piece of hardware providing the sound output is decent. It's all about the interface. There is otherwise not much that separates software/plugins from hardware (with software or not) instruments outside of purely non-electronic acoustic ones.. and software is getting close.. but only with the right kind of physical interface to drive it. Where plugins are interesting I think is where they enable leveraging the kind of processing power in a computer that you are unlikely to find in a dedicated musical instrument - to be able to do things a typical synth keyboard/hardware device cannot be expected to do. The lines are blurring though... embedded CPUs are becoming close to 'desktop class' in number crunching power, real-time circuit simulation and accurate physical modelling is becoming viable for 'hardware' synths. 3rd Wave is very nice.. tried it at NAMM.. was the best thing at the show when it came out IMO.
Who cares what anyone else says really?! What matters is that game you sit down with it you feel inspired. Comparison leads only to depression imo. Enjoy your gear and don’t let someone else tell you how you should feel about a product you bought and like/love.
@@osirismaximus2787 thank you! And great choice on the 3W. Learning to block out the noise of everyone’s opinions (including mine) is the key to being happy. It’s a freaking dope synth and I will never sell it (unless they make a 48 voice version… jk 😝)
Yeah that was a very off putting video. I have made plenty of music and only use hardware.... I have pretty bad adhd so having hardware keeps me focused on the music aspect and not surfing the web for example.
The fact that you live with a debilitating boundary, and are able to focus on what you do and do it exceptionally well, that's a credit to you and how you deal with it. I would never have imagined that you have ADHD, your videos are genuinely focused, so what ever you're doing, keep on doing it.
@@YukiTheSynthDragon hello fellow ADHD synth musician!! It’s surprising how many of us there are, Benn Jordan talked about it too. Thanks for sharing that. It’s a big reason I enjoy hardware too. Appreciate you sharing and the videos you make for this community! 🙏
So happy to hear fellow adhd sufferers find comfort in hardware. My whole studio is built as a haven to indulge my adhd brain. The range of options, interaction and modulation just speaks to how I think.
Sticking my hand up too. The interaction of real controls is half the experience. Also usually hardware doesn't have as short a shelf life as virtual. I do use my iPad as a synth though at the moment due to finance. I'd love an analog poly desktop again one day
Very nicely put buddy, with regards to his rant- I have never seen so much misinformation in one video. I have enjoyed Espen's channel for years, but personally I feel either he is the scam and has no real understanding of synths, components, inflation etc, or (MOST LIKELY) his video is just out there for clickbait. There is nothing factual in it. Prices were way way off, trying to lie to his listeners by saying hardware is a scam. Yes VSTs are great, and constantly getting better. Yes they have their place. However, after R&D, there are no manufacturing costs, no failing components, no hardware warranty to supply, no inflation impact, No shipping, Insurance etc etc. so trying to compare VSTs price tag against hardware is completely crazy. I like Espen, and have always really enjoyed his channel, but I am afraid I lost a good bit of respect for him after watching that clickbait nonsense.
I supported him by posting he could sell what ever he wanted, do what he wanted, this was a year ago, then he posts this video and the comment he kept posting towards Azurestate regarding him being scammed because he bought a 3rd Wave, well you know I got one recently too. EK just tried to make someone else's opinion invalidated all because EK seems to think he knows best, in this case he just looks like a fool, that's on him and I don't feel bad at all that I own a 3rd Wave, best experience I have had with hardware. His loss, and many have lost respect for him. Imagine trying to gaslight someone because of what they use to make music ? Lol.
@@BlackMan614 It's not his opinion that bothered me, it's the way he said the things that in my opinion is terrible and on the criminal border. Music for me is a place of peace Espen's way of speaking in this video belongs elsewhere.
The odd thing about Espen's video is that his channel was literally built on a foundation of showcasing vintage analog hardware synthesizers. He has much of his large following ~because~ he did so many fantastic videos featuring the venerable classics. Then one day, he decided to sell them all... and did a complete 180 on his channel approach and attitude toward hardware. I'm not terribly surprised his viewers are 🤔.
And herein lies the issue, switch the manufacturer out and replace him as a seller of 2nd hand goods, what is the price he was selling his vintage gear for, market value? If this is the case, most of his gear would have sold for more than what he paid for, inflation adjusted, so is he now scamming the people he sold to? This is where the hypocrisy lies, and you cannot change that, the fact he tries to gaslight people because he as an opinion based on bias, well let's see how well this ages.
Yeah, I find his new stand on using hardware synths very ironic. How popular would his channel have been if he only made videos with him playing some VSTs? I don't think very popular at all. 😂And he's also contradicting himself on the topic. He says "I'm the 80s" but then wants you to believe you shouldn't use hardware synths (which they exclusively did in the 80s). Makes no sense!
Note: Behringer maybe don't have design costs, but they definitely have engineering costs. Cloning requires non trivial amount of R&D, especially if you are cloning something made from no longer available chips. And why synths don't get much recognition? This comes to two causes IMHO: Firstly, synths are little bit easier to play than for example violin (unless you play theremin, ofc). Secondly synths were marketed in past as easier/cheaper alternative to acoustic instruments (mostly pianos), so it makes sense they are perceived as cheap knockoffs.
Ha! Great comment about Behringer, and the fact that they obviously also have costs. Of course they do. They don’t just go to an Ikea like store and pick a few parts and “BAAM”😂 Just oosted a comment on that myself, before I read this comment.
Yep, his ignorance about Behringer shows his opinion is pointless and who really cares what he thinks anyway....Obviously his fanbois do but since when does that mean anything....Carry on.
I think Espen is right. What's missing from this Miles commenting video is indeed the middle ground: Find yourself a good midi controller keyboard, and it will be your very playable, musician-responsive interface, to play those free VSTs. The knobs and sliders on your controller will do the job to control whatever you need to address your VSTs with. If hardware synths aren't scams, they are at least unnecessary, except to gear worshippers.
The clincher for me was seeing house of worship keyboard players using MainStage or Ableton with a good controller, for their live rig. I don’t hate hardware synths but I cannot stand their ridiculous pricing policies.
@@kennyzee3221 Agreed. Also for me, it's not just the pricing policies but the fetischism, or what I should call it. But some people have a thing for cars or model trains, so why not, really? I'm just not one of those guys :)
I mean, does it *really* make a difference? Would people be able to tell whether you used OB-Xd or an actual OB-Xa in a final, mixed and mastered song? Even if they could tell, would they care? I can't think of a single song that failed simply because they used plugins instead of hardware.
@@JimmiG84As a musician, you care about the creation process as much as you do about the end product. With my music that‘s not drenched in reverb, delay and EQ, you strongly hear the character of the analog synths used. But not all analogs have the same strong character, I personally think the cleaner, more modern sounding ones are easier to replace soundwise. But for many, including me, that‘s not the whole point. It‘s the interaction with an actual real instrument. You don‘t go out there and tell pianists „Why did you buy this Bösendorfer for 150250€ when you can have a piano sample library for 129€“ „NoBoDy iS gOiNg To NoTiCe In ThE mIx“😂 Meanwhile, listen to what Mile Dean has to say on the matter: „I have about 50 keyboards. All of them have been upgraded to work with MIDI. They give me real sounds. They sound far better than soft synths. I just spent $15,000 on an ARP 2600, and it sounds so good, it paid for itself in a week. It has nice, warm distortion and wonderful oscillators. I have the Behringer clone and it sounds terrible, and the Arturia version, and while it sounds good, it doesn’t sound like the real thing. “I also just spent $50,000 on a Yamaha CS80, and it sounds great, and nothing plays like it. Nothing has the same polyphonic aftertouch. I also bought a Roland Jupiter 8 this year, for $20,000. People talk shit about these instruments. When you have one, you can hear the difference with the imitations. The fact that the real synths are sometimes out of tune is what makes them so cool. It’s funky. It gives them character! I also use soft synths a lot, I’m not against them. But soft synths are like singers with Auto‑Tune. They sound very sterile.” Dean is particularly a fan of Moog synths, and explains: “The Moog synths I use the most are the Matriarch, the Grandmother, and the Voyager for my signature bass sound. I have been to the Moog factory a few times, looking at prototypes and trying things out. The Voyager, Juno 106, Korg Triton and two laptops are my core setup live. One laptop is for playback and the other for sound sources, like my guitar sounds and stuff like that. But when I work in my studio in the box, I use mostly samplers, like Native Instruments Kontakt, and I also use a lot of Arturia stuff, for organs and so on.”
@@zxy7529 "But for many, including me, that‘s not the whole point. It‘s the interaction with an actual real instrument. " That's my point though. Listeners don't care how you interacted with the instrument while making the song, they care about the end product. Of course if using expensive analog synths inspired you to create better music, they were subjectively worth it to you, but in practice, you could have achieved the same result with a plugin. People consistently fail to pick out the hw vs the plugin in blind tests, including raw, unprocessed sounds. Same goes for pianos, the "feeling" of playing a real, hand crafted piano is incomparable to playing a Kontakt library on a MIDI controller, but in theory you could achieve the same result with a premium Kontakt library and some processing.
@@JimmiG84 I don‘t fail to pick them apart in blind tests. It matters TO ME, and that‘s all that is important. I‘m even picky about the analog synths itself, many of them don‘t have enough organic character for me either. I can even pick the different hardware revisions of the Prophet apart, got all but one correct in that Alex Ball blindtest. My hearing is very well trained at this point. There is no need to have an inferiority complex about using VSTs, they have their place and completely different strengths than analog HW. I use Omnisphere, Keyscape and exclusively VST FX (for convenience). But the day I‘m without my hardware synths or a piano, I‘m going to stop making and playing music. Your comment about thinking a Kontakt library and some processing can replace a real piano i shows me you probably never played piano? Because it really can‘t. I have libraries that aim to capture the liveliness but they are severely limited in either expression or sound character (in the physical modeling case). And yes, I also don‘t like every physical piano the same. I love the warm sound of the scrappy old upright from the 1880s I started on, or the Bösendorfer range.
I feel the danger with the youtube sphere is that it can also cause a myopic view where you take what you are experiencing online together with your followers and those you follow as fact. As “this is how people feel in general” . I see so many gear video’s that I could forget that there is still a whole other world out there with completely different gear and more importantly completely other mentalities towards making music and art in general. TH-cam is a risky place, especially if someone is at an age that your outlook in life has solidified and lost its openness. You become the proverbial old man that hates everything;)
Tasteful, common sense response - well done. I love Espen and consider him a friend, but I do think the "scam" premise of his video is really striking a nerve, and rightfully so. I've got a lot of friends in the synth world, including manufacturers, and I can categorically state that no one is scamming anyone. It's a tough enough business to be in without accusations like that - that had to be difficult to read, especially by really small companies like Groove Synthesis who are absolutely killing it and making top notch synths. The profit margins are not that big. In fact, in their case, they are minuscule, all things considered. Ultimately, you hit it on the head my friend: a physical synth is all about being a conduit to creating and feeling inspired. 😁👍🏻
You scammed me into buying a 3rd Wave, but I don't know where to send the money to, maybe I should just shut up and make some music? Jokes aside, the word "SCAM" is the red flag here, Espen's 1st language is not English but surely he knows that "SCAM" means to take something from someone by deception, or illegality, that's not what is happening at all with newer releases, quite the contrary because some of the newer releases are actually cheaper than what they've replaced. I think Espen has click baited his video to address the issues, but it has backfired somewhat due to the division he has created. Inhalt had some pretty strong words to say about the topic.
@@DankePlace yeah, I agree. It was a very click-baity video, and I believe intentionally so. Espen is certainly known for having strong opinions (which is fine), but this one was a bridge too far, for a lot of people - and certainly for manufacturers.
Thanks man, yea I always wanna keep it respectful but I felt it was a bit disingenuous to try to distill down an entire instrument category to "you are being scammed and are a sucker, just use the hydrasynth or vsts". I can imagine it hurt to hear that for folks like the Groove guys who hustled for years while working second jobs to bring out the 3rd Wave, and then being told they are trying to scam people.
@@devinbelangermusic Hydrasynth IS a VST in a box, and it's a terrible one when it comes to UI, PEAK is far better but that's FPGA and has lovely FX section. My Explorer is packed away as I find the synth very linear when you try to coax sounds live from it, menu diving, where's the mouse when you need it? The difference between ASM and Groove Synthesis, I can tell you 1st hand when I reached out to ASM, I got nothing in response, I wont mention who, but they defended ASM saying that they were a small team, when I reached out to Groove Synthesis, I had 2 new firmwares the very next day, I think they have the same exact amount of people in their team as ASM do. GS are what companies should be doing, and it doesn't matter that the 3rd Wave is expensive, they have no parent company like Medeli who more than likely funded the whole roll out of ASM, GS, yeah that's bank loans and hardwork from the gang who care to interact with their customers.
@@JimDaneker People will defend him, that's fine but when he uses a specific term in a hyperbolic way, that is discrediting some manufacturers of what they do. When someone who has great gear can control a narrative that isn't necessary, then you will soon see the trainwreck that it will be. Inhalt did a nice summary too.
We had a bit of back and forth in the comments... I think the issue is that he thinks the only nobel reason for a synth's existence is music production output. And if that's your only goal, a single package of "knobs, lights and faders" is unnecessary and expensive. But he's actively dismissing the fact that one can just play an instrument for the sake of it, as if art for the sake of art is a bad thing.
I must say that the feeling of touching hardware synth and affecting the sound is part of my pleasure and stimulation while playing live, and that I don’t have it with VST, even if on the sound point of vue in many cases the difference is hard to appreciate
OMG thank you for this video. I have the same perspective! I'm going to put here the comment I wrote in Espen Kraft video, hope you like it. ------------- It's not just about the sound. The experience of creating a patch in a plugin is very different from that of creating a patch in real instruments. -The 3 Wave, for example, is a 23-polyphony with high-quality analog filters. It's not a scam. Most of the time, it's the real cost for a small -------company to produce and develop these instruments. If you can't afford it, that's fine. But calling it a scam is going too far. The way you're talking, you're devaluing the dedication someone had to develop these instruments. Please try to spread peace and good vibes. Your videos often have themes that attack certain people or companies. It's okay to have these opinions, but you could make videos that are much more enriching and interesting for everyone than one like this that will generate controversy. You have many talents with music that can help many. Peace! ------------- Love your channel and music!
24 note lol, I know you hit the 3 by accident, but that's 72 oscillators if you want to stack them!!! 3rd Wave is amazing, I have the desktop and it is so well sounding, some YT vids just do not do it justice. Espen likes to click bait his titles, which in itself is disingenuous, irrespective of what the message behind his vid is.
You lost the debate when you said 'spread peace and good vibes.' How about spreading facts and not emotions, but that is alien to you, I'm almost positive.
I think Espen didn't have his muesli this morning, he seemed particularly hangry...or maybe just click-baity...either way, we're talking about him...and he's getting the clicks.
I wouldn’t use the word scam because it presumes a deceptive intent on the part of synths manufacturers. Now is Sequential, Moog or others are taking a huge profit margin on their synths, I’m pretty sure yes. However, I still have the option to not buy their synths if I feel that they don’t provide enough value. Personally I think it’s the vintage synths that are a scam due to their high price, low reliability and frequent need of service.
I am pretty confident Moog/Sequential aren't taking massive profits, but I can definitely see your point about vintage synths. Thankfully the market seems to be cooling a bit. That's just classic supply and demand for desirable collector's items. But agreed, the maintenance is rough
When your company is (relatively) small and production quantities (relatively) small, you might need to make a large-ish profit margin to pay your staff - that's not exactly a 'scam' though (small production runs don't benefit from economies of scale - so maybe the margins aren't as big as you would think). In the end the market will decide if the price of certain products is too high and if a company is viable.
@@wavesequencer I was just thinking this too. In the past I’ve bristled at moog and sequential prices, but I understand that bigger margins are necessary to keep these companies afloat. If you know anything about the history of synth companies, you know that financial ruin is quite common too
Well both Moog and Sequential companies were recently sold off to larger companies so they were not making huge tons of profit. The larger costs to components and labor to assemble in the US were major issues with Behringer copying all their products.
I think you might have missed some of the point that Espen was making... is a software emulation of a 70's/80's synth in a nice tactile box worth $4000 dollars. That's a lot of many to a great many people. Are people paying for something concrete or are they buying brand prestige/FOMO. Paraphrased from the Oberheim website: software 'OS 2.0' update can provide a host of new features; that can only be true if (some aspect of) the underlying synth is actually software. I'd love to see a tear-down video, that should bury the debate... does anyone want to take a screwdriver to their $4000 synth ;)
1. The design of a hardware synthesizer is as much about the interface and tweakability as it is about the engine and sounds. It's about getting you to physically interact with the sound source. This in itself is worth a lot of money to me personally, even if it's just a digital VST inside that box. 2. R&D costs are everything to smaller companies. You are paying not just for all the R&D that went into the instrument, but also for keeping the company alive and afloat. This is reality for almost all small developers. Take a company like Arturia, which has about 150 employees. Say there are all developers, so electrical engineers, computer algorithms specialists, etc - those would easily earn 100k USD/year. So you're looking at yearly costs of 15 million dollars, just for salaries! Let's say it's JUST 10M to be generous. We're talking about very, very expensive businesses that have to stay afloat. At 4000 USD, the Polybrute 12 needs to sell 2500 instances a year just to break even. That's a very large number of units for a very small, cut-throat market of top-tier synths. You can't compare this to a VST company like u-He which consists of a single, very talented guy.
I've had a bad experience doing business with Espen, and even with that being said - I feel a little sorry for him. He just sold a good deal of old gear that kind of made him who he was (the 80's vintage synth guy) and it seems like he hasn't upgraded his computer system in like, forever. I think he also pulled down a lot of his music from Spotify, so he's probably going through some tough emotionally creative times. I know, it's not easy growing older in a world that sometimes feels like it's passing you by. Plus being isolated out in rural Norway may also be taking it's toll. If you read this Espen, I hope that you find your way out of this dark place and find some great musical inspiration!! 🙂
It's crazy. I have a respectable synth collection and really I use them mostly to inspire my creativity and jam when I feel the urge. My entire album catalog of music is 80% VSTs and 20% recorded hardware. I love my hardware collection and wouldn't give it up for going 100% in the box, but a lot can be said for the quality and ease of use of VSTs currently. I'm glad I have options is basically what I'm trying to say I guess. Great video, always enjoy your take on things. Cheers!
Synth have always been expensive. Back in the 80s new were unaffordable and unobtainable by many. A 3.5k synth back in the 1980 would have been 13k today (adjusting inflation). We live in a golden era for gear, there are tons of options. Back then we weren’t that lucky. With all the technology we have developed, building a piece of gear exactly as we used to does not make any sense. Only a minority of people ask for this. The reality is that people back then complained about long time for the synths to tune, were unpredictable due to weather, they could stop working, they were heavy, huge. Companies took note and gave us what we asked for. Now we complain that we want gear like they used to built them 🙄 I am happy with what is being produced now, you have a vast amount of gear at different prices. Compared to the 80s even these 3.5k synths are more accessible to more people now than what it used to back then. Agree that there are pieces of gear that are ridiculously expensive and are geared towards certain people (people that can afford it). To call it scam, I don’t know. Small companies will sell gear at higher prices. I used to built amps, and it was expensive to make them. Small operation, you can’t buy big bulk of parts. And having custom chassis made, as well as transformers is very expensive. In the end the profit margin was very small. So I can see why small companies prices their items higher.
I know it sounds offensive, but if you can’t tell the difference between analog and digital synths in terms I’d their overall sound maybe your ears aren’t that great/developed? I’ve been in the box for 20 years and finally getting a classic analog synth was an immediate impression of “wow” and still does that. I’m also, minimally though not inconsequentially, a programmer of virtual synths and I can tell your there is no meaningful way I could replicate all of what happens in actual circuits that makes the final result special. And I’ve tried! You can go down a rabbit hole just for any one thing and quickly realize you can only do so much. I liken it to. GGI vs live actors. And some can’t tell that apart either! 😂
I admit it, my dream is to be able to have everything in the box. The convenience, the cost, the appeal to my minimalist ethos. It just makes total sense to me. Over the last 20 years, I've spent periods of time where I tried to it do all in the box, and every time I think "it's finally there" in terms of comparison in sound, I'll turn on a "crappy" analog synth like my Roland Juno 106 or Oberheim Matrix 1000 and within seconds it's like yeah, the plugins are not even close. Have the plugins improved massively from the early days when they all sounded like digital accordions? Yes, but they're still not there. And for those who cry "You can't tell the difference the mix", that is not the problem. The problem is what a musician hears and feels playing the instrument influences what they play. It's that feedback loop. And playing a plugin ends up with a totally different performance that many musicians can argue is far inferior. What I play on a free Oberheim plugin is totally different than what I end up playing on an Oberheim OBX8. The plugin only addresses the surface level. The fact is this: I would love nothing better than to be able to have everything on my MacBook Air and travel around the world and make music anytime and anywhere. But I still drag around my analog synths (my new favourite and most recent acquisition is the Kawai SX-240 of which there isn't even a plugin available) and I still have a pair of Neve preamps because I have to.
@@Patrick-pv9pe Kindred spirit here. I've actually taken the time to sample a lot of my synths, esp the X8 so I can take it everywhere on my Macbook and get the same sounds. VST emulations and things like Roland Cloud are very close, but still miss the mark. I can say my ears have developed well over so many ears and I instantly get a red flag with all the VST soft synths based on or inspired by the classics. It's a deal-breaker for me inspiration wise, but I still own way more than I reasonably should. They're great for quickly browsing through presets and getting recreating it on the real deal. And to your last point...I'm looking at the neve 1073opx8... yikes!
@@devinbelangermusicThe key there is “in a busy mix”. For the most part, me too, and I felt silly trying to tell. Ive left vsts in mixdowns for that reason, I couldn’t tell and didnt swap the part out for the real synth to save time and effort. In that use case, it’s fine. If it’s a more prominent synth part, it can only have the real deal.
I'm with you on this. The sound you get from analog is a huge difference, and much more inspiring to me. Also, people don't realize how much easier analog is to mix due to the non linearity. Most of the plugins these days (Soothe, Saturation plugins, deessers, etc) are just used to make up for the fact that it is hard to get a mix blending nice and getting frequencies to play nice with each other, when it is digitally based. I understand that, objectively, people have varying levels of hearing sensitivity and some people genuinely can not tell the difference, but as an artist, if we can hear the difference, then it can be a huge motivating factor to sound the best we can, and for me that means analog.
I actually had the same thoughts in regards to Espen video. An example, I know the Juno X gets alot of hate, but when I played that instrument, it inspired me to compose, I cant afford it yet but to me that Synth felt amazing to me. The only synthesizer I own is a minifreak but somedays i just want to play something live as oppose to a VST and get inspired from the sounds of an actual hardware. End of the day to each their own and everyones opinions matter. Keep making music :)
I for one hear a pretty big difference with many of my analog synths. VSTs are cool but definitely don't sound the same and to me are not as inspiring.
Majority of what Espen said is true. But i still like hardware, and i still like to get excited about new products. He really wanted to like that Prophet X. Sold so much of his vintage rare equipment to sample into that Prophet X. So with all the bugs you hear about, i might be a little sour too.
Love my PX. Any problems I've had Sequential has fixed for basically free. I use it every day. Super inspiring and has been working great. I've had it for 5 years. Its not like the PX was cancelled 6 months after it was released. It had a 6 ish year run. That's better than most.
I sit at computer all day. I don’t want to sit at one and fiddle with VST’s to make music. Instead I go down to my studio, fire up GigPerformer, put it in record mode, and then jam away on my synth collection, drum machines, and electronic drum kit knowing any moments of inspiration are captured as both separate MIDI and audio tracks for each instrument. My 96-input audio interface means no stopping to re-patch anything.
I stand by this from Espen's video>>>>> There is nothing clickbait about the content and title. He clearly said you can make the sounds in software for a fraction of the price. I saw NO ONE disproving that statement, and that is exactly why I do not pay those prices for ONE synth. I have one analog I paid $250 for which sells for over $1000,and it's the same OLD synth. It is NOT worth $1000, even in parts, and will cost more to service it as years go by than it's worth. $5000+ for one piece of gear? WHY?????Until someone disproves it can be duplicated in software, it's just a bunch of noise. I have great synths I paid $250, $200 for and the last one was $100 mint. I have multiple samplers so I can MAKE sounds from found sounds or straight synthesis. If you know about Reaktor, Macaw, PD, CSound, Buzz, etc,etc, you have the intelligence to know that paying all that money for gear is a SCAM . For example, you can make whole drum kits from banging on the table or voices, and create. Bodily Fluids was a whole LP made with founds sounds of the human body.. He NEVER said there is no USE for physical gear, he said the PRICE of some of them is TOO damn HIGH..If you're going to debate something the least one can do is argue the POINT,NOT a different or made up point .In fact, He said the HydraSynth is one of the few HARDWARE synths that is WORTH THE MONEY..What part was hard????? I can play my $100 synth connected to either my Ensoniq ASR10 or my Em-u samplers, and I am nOT restricted by the sounds installed in the machines, nor the filters. Now if you, you and you feel like paying $5000 for ONE synth, then take YOUR money, buy it and enjoy. What you are NOT going to do it LIE and suggest $5000+ is worth it, because of R&D. nor has anyone disproved his suggestions for sounds....
It’s fascinating, Miles, that when you’re describing a hardware synth at 2:41 as a conduit to achieving the sound you want, you include footage of yourself playing the only analog polyphonic synth that’s tempting me as we approach the end of September 2024, the one I affectionately call the “Thomas Elroy Oberheim Five”. I’m inclined to imagine that model is more of a value than the OB-X8, but I could be mistaken. Incidentally, I watched Espen’s review earlier today.
I literally just articulated pieces of this video in the comments in the original video. Awesome to hear you say the same things. Comparing hardware analog to VST emulations really weakened the overall spirit of the argument. I wish @EpsenKraft focused more on the gear chase and less on the cost/scam of these machines.
Behringer is cheap because of build quality compromises, made in china and scaling synergies (they get their parts very cheaply). They have R&D costs obviously but they can spread them out. Anyways, the price/performance ratio is awesome, I have the Solina and MS-5 myself
I'd call them D costs, not R&D costs. Their research is literally deciding what to do next and reverse engineering. That's cheap compared to building something from scratch.
Very well spoken and articulated!! You can tell it was coming from within you and not some scripted video.... You have a very level, intelligent mind and I appreciated the way you made this video!!! Thanks for sharing this!!
@@DankePlaceEspen jumped the shark when he got high speed internet. Then he changed. UncleJerry wouldn't have his channel taken down. Stop the constant lying 🤥
@@RichKielbasa who ever mentioned him having Espen's channel taken down? I did say "cancelled", because when your friend John got a DMCA filed for using Espen's content, Uncle Jerry told people to boycott and unsub from Espen's channel, that's cancelling, anything else you want to discuss?
@@DankePlace @RichKielbasa Thank you Rich! This guy has mental issues obviously and is seeking attention by trying to light fires.... Just ignore him (and any other like them) and eventually they go away... If not.. then that proves the dude is truly mental and we move on to higher countermeasures.... No one likes an asshole, but I'm a bigger person... This guy obviously has deep issues... Just let him post away.... Doesn't bother me anymore
@@unclejerrysworld that's quite the potty mouth for an Uncle you have. So when you attacked Espen, why is that? John used his content without his consent and here you are playing victim again? How's you channel with all those subs being bought going Jerry?
Great video response. It’s pretty simple: VSTs = paying for a result . Hardware synths = paying for an experience that leads to results. Both have a place and purpose in set ups .
Love hardware for all the same reasons, but it’s kinda absurd how much some of these boards cost. $3k used to be a crazy price for an instrument. Now, ya can’t even get the desktop version of alot of these synths for that price. I can’t help but think that some of these manufacturers are aiming for “exclusivity”. The perception is that selling a big expensive synth somehow psychologically appeals more to pros and “synthfluencers”, whereas they could probably sell twice as many units at half the price.
Everything on the 'dollar' menu costs $5 now. It isn't manufacturers simply choosing to make everything more expensive just to do it, it is a fact of reality. The idea that they are doing it for 'exclusivity' without branding accordingly is literally just you imparting a motive where there isn't one. I do wish things were less expensive but it is what it is, especially when you're paying for analog components.
Great video! It doesn't matter whether one uses VSTs or hardware if the creative vision is achieved. My last three albums were almost entirely created with VSTs. Hardware is about the experience of interacting with an instrument. Having tangible controls and a more performance oriented experience. it is just a different paradigm and a way to create in a different way. I love both. As for the pricing and value of hardware, people forget just how much an Oberheim cost in the early 80s, somewhere around $5000USD, that is $15,000 in today's dollars adjusted. So you are getting the same synth with better manufacturing for far less. And who cares if somebody has a room full of synths and doesn't release any music, that isn't the point. It is about the experience and fun of playing these instruments. Enjoy and chill out!
Synthesizers of the future are going to be running individual knobs in Linux containers and different synthesizer subsystems like the envelopes and the filters in different virtual machines. To protect the integrity of the system all external ports and connectors will actually be run on separate Linux computers for true hardware physical isolation and they will communicate only through low latency encrypted and keyed messaging to authorized and factory certified components. Every sample emitted by the system will be part of a private blockchain for true attribution and monetization capitalization.
and regulation - drives up expenses. osha costs money. environmental regs cost money. green energy costs money - watch the use of coal in china and india - if green energy was cheaper then they wouldn’t be burning coal.
Another relevant comparison for the “price” argument, which would have probably been a more relevant video, is the difference between high priced instruments vs. lower priced instruments, such as guitars. The cost delta on these is much higher than synths for an arguably lower difference in function and quality. Often the price difference is based on the material, inlays, or even the limited production, with nominal increase in quality (subjective differences or preferences maybe, but that holds for all instruments). My primary reason for hardware is the performative nature of hardware, a conduit for creativity and focus, limiting options, and the beauty and aesthetic of using them, which definitely pull me into the studio more often than the allure of the DAW screen! I agree with Espen on the Hydrasynth. It’s my fav and the most capable. But not my creative go to. Most importantly, do I love my expensive synths and feel good about my purchase? Yes I do. And that’s really the only thing that matters.
Great video man, Espen's channel is awesome too! Being in hybrid world for almost 20 years of music production- hardware inspires a lot though touch and of course accidents :) Sequentials, semi modulars and the Behringers (no I don't hate them) Its all great! But the convenience of MIDI and VSTs is amazing when the label wants you to do a last min key change and they have vocal sessions booked. Also traveling for work, I cant carry a truckload. Whatever inspires and fits someones budget, get it and make music! Switch it up when you are bored and repeat!!
My take on this is a product might indeed be "a VST in a box", but it's all about THE BOX - the user experience of physically turning knobs, *_especially_* during performance. The box takes time and skill to bring into existence. There's cost involved in that which needs to be recovered through sales even when there are a bunch of standardized parts behind the front panel circuit board. This aspect particularly bugs me because my background is hardware design so I have direct experience which the glib "it's a rip-off" armchair experts lack. The Roland AE-30 Aerophone Pro wind synth is "just another ZEN-Core" in a box but with its breath, bite, elevation, tilt, and pressure sensitive thumb pad it can deliver waaaay more real-time expression from that sound engine than the Roland Cloud implementation! It's not cheap by any measure and it's not perfect but considering it's a niche of a niche of a niche, it's not going to be Temu priced. For me a mouse or generic MIDI control surface gives a generic physical experience that lacks mojo. And it's not just computer-based plugins - the MPC plugins are so fiddly and so static. Yes I could spend hours tweaking to fake an expressive performance, or I can just grab a hardware synth and get a better result quicker - and I'm not at all a virtuoso!
I tend to go for a VST when I know the sound I want to make. But when I'm in search of a new mood, it's the real hardware that gets me there. I will have a creative session on the Nymphes or Typhon that takes me places I never seem to get to on a VST even with all the knobs on the controller all mapped out. The exception being VCV Rack, that one is the softsynth that saves me from contracting Modual GAS.
Espen forgets many factors which make a vst in a box a good thing. Like playing with band and touring... i do not like bring my laptop. Also i love that software runs inside the synths gives us more options... i think there is more to it overall...
Yeah but it's bloody boring without dedicated knobs and such! Don't get me wrong. I also started looking to my iPad to deal with my lack of spending power. Of course it wouldn't make a difference to a listener we don't need to be told that! Currently missing my vst in a box summit cause of all its glorious knobs that do not need to be remapped...
You can't tweak a sound as easily with a mouse on a software synth as you can by turning a knob or pushing a fader. Yes, there are boxes that allow for this, but then you are right back to using hardware. But I suppose you are correct; you do get about 90% of it. Sometimes it's the last 10% that really makes it though.
I personally agree with Espen, there are many synths that take a lot of profit costs but then again, look at Roland and how much the latest Juno cost. So really paying 1000 more for a slightly more bespoke synth is not that bad. What is bad are people paying lots of money for an expensive synth on the back of GAS and getting heavy into debt. What I do feel that most synth manufacturers should do is return to the 19 inch rackmount version options, they offered affordability, stackability for the bedroom and gigging musician and less issues with keybeds etc for less. And no, desktops are not an equivalent to rackmounts.
@@tantatheindian7068 the Juno and Jupiter X are an awful example because you can get a Fantom from them and get the same engine plus a screen plus 3000 other sounds
It's just about being able to switch on and play. Not boot a computer, start a DAW, deal with OS updates etc.. If that computer is not dedicated to music you might have notifications popping up. The fact that tuning and electronics are so much better and more stable these days is not a sign of anything being "digital", just shows how the older synths were cruder. Having had a few analogus synths where you had to warm them up, tune them I'll take the stable tuning any day. Oh and thes reason many synths are expensive is due to manufacturing in the USA or Europe instead of more exploitatitve countries. Behringher will be cheaper when it's make in China. This US manufacturing didn't however workout for Moog, they were bought out.
I'm a software dev so i spend 8+ hours a day working on the computer - the last thing I want when i'm trying to unwind from work is to sit working on the computer! I'm not trying to be a professional musician, or even necessarily write songs, it's just relaxation - having physical keys and knobs in front of me is a much nicer experience, and helps separate it from "work". Thats ignoring the social aspect of hardware as well - what's a more social environment when playing music with a bunch of mates; each sat at your own laptop staring at the screen, or clustered round the same table each with a synth in front of you?
Espen, he's losing his mind, he's bought an armchair of complacency, and he's gotten worked up, and now he thinks he's Martin Gore. People can do whatever they want with their money, why does he buy hardware? Why doesn't he sell his Jupiter 8. one of the most overrated synths due to the current ridiculous price. He made a song exclusively with vsti and it sucked. It sounded bad. but it is he who did not dress them. As a musician I find it mediocre. but his channel was good because it informed you about vintage material. but that red armchair has changed him
I totally agree. I am a KORG sound developer and I know how much research costs from a simple device to a musical instrument. Also a beautiful instrument brings extra inspiration for musicians.
I think that Espen is only bitter because of the problems with his Prophet x. If you have the money and want good and creative tools, whats the problem? Its much more fun and creative to play around with a 3rd wave or a Prophet 10 than clicking a mouse and look into a computer screen. Also the obx8, moog muse etc are much better looking than a random PC. Its the same with cars, watches, houses, clothes etc, you can live in a small appartement an drive a little Fiat, still people choose to live in big houses and drive BMWs and Audis.
I agree. Playing with hardware synths is more fun and inspiring then clicking some buttons on your computer screen. Maybe Espen was running out of money and needed to sell his synths and is now trying to justify this to himself by bad mouthing hardware synths. I don't know.. But he seems to forget what made his channel popular in the first place. It wasn't clicking buttons in a VST!
Man, the first time I got an analog synth, the Prophet 08, I was like… ooooh yeah, that’s what I’ve been missing. It IS in the sound. Same with analog compressors. I tried all my SSL style VST compressors and my Wes Audio Dione SSL “clone” and the hardware won every time on the mix. Analog sounds more natural and alive. Period.
Some people do treat acoustic instruments like they are pointless. Seems the big misunderstanding with synths is, some people treat them all as one "same" instrument. True many synths are similar but some could NOT be more different. Not all synths are "programs in a box".
I had a room full of synths in the 80s. I much prefer VSTs these days because of lower cost, speed, total recall, automation ability, and space and electricity savings. You do you, boo!
Buyer's market. If I like spinning and collecting vinyl, I don't have to care about someone's opinion that I could just save the money and listen the tracks on TH-cam or buy them digitally. I like to feel the music in my hands. I have way more deeper interest and attachment into physical formats than files on a hard drive. For the same reason the PlayStation fans were angry at Sony just a week ago that their new console doesn't even have a disc drive. Physical formats matter to people.
Maaannn TY, that's why I'm a hybrid when it comes to VST'S and HW Synths, a proud owner of 8 HW Synth and TONS of Vst's and I can tell you sometimes I dontbturn on any HW I stay in the box, there are other days I'll turn on my Prophet X and I'll use the heck out of it. Like you said you are paying for the experience of playing and messing with knobs and faders‼️
I think in the case of people who have owned or played many if not most of the synths that have been out there, it's possible to get gear fatigue. You can get to a point where too much gear just gets in the way. You want the gear that is absolutely essential to get your work done, and that's it. And for many people, when they get comfortable with having all their sounds "in the box" so to speak, then it's just so convenient to load up a VST of the synth you want, rather than having to take down a synth to free up a stand, put it away, go get the other one you want to you, and hook that up instead etc. And when you see lots of new gear coming out, with firmware bugs on release, reminding you that "this is just like any other VST I could have running on my PC", then it's easy to feel a bit ripped off. Which I totally can understand. Also, I don't think Espen Kraft meant to say that "hardware synths" in general are a scam, but that many of the high end/flagship synths that have been released the last few years and upcoming ones, are the ones that can easily come across as "scams". He specified that he used extreme wording, so I think in more nuanced terms, he means that they are overpriced for what you actually get. I mean, with many high end synths, if you look at the keybeds they use (usually Fatar), and you check out what Fatar charges for a StudioLogic midi keyboard (or Numa Piano for that matter), with usually better keybeds, then that part certainly isn't where your €5000 goes. How much does the electronics themselves cost? The synths certainly don't contain hardware on the level of what you find in a PC for example. The knobs and faders? Displays? Honestly, I think the profit margins on many of these are quite high. BUT, the total number of sales of high end synths usually also isn't that high. Certainly not in the millions. Probably not even in the hundreds of thousands, unless we're talking Yamaha or Roland. Normally, it's the slightly lower spec gear that sells in quantities. So in order for these companies to pay their employees, their rent, parts suppliers, etc. Well, they probably need a pretty high profit margin.
I disappointedly watched his video and then unsubscribed from his channel. Having digital controls does not make analog synths "VSTs in hardware boxes." For example, DCOs are analog oscillators regardless of their digital control. His video spread misinformation, conflating aspects of digital and analog synths, and showcased a lack of synth knowledge (both in signal path and development).
Each time I switch on my hydrasynth, I don't feel I have been scammed at all. Arturia's Pigments 5 could do most of the things the same as a vst of course. But the quality of the product cannot be denied. It has top notch components and it delivers in terms of functionalities.
Espen is right about one thing, these manufacturers are just charging obsurd amount of $ when you can get a UBXA 16 voice analog for 800-1000$ or a Hydrasynth for 499$ starting price. No reason to charge 5k and make them unobtainable by many. Behringer synths don't break, at least some of mine like the Model D Neutron and RD-8 are 5 years old and still run flawlessly. Behringer wins because most of US are going to buy a 2600 for 499$ vs 2000
I've also started with only software but using more and more hardware synths these days. I think that the hardware picked up a lot over the last 3 years and still growing strong.
In my opinion, Espen Kraft is overlooking several points here: 1. it very much depends on the type of music, whether you create it entirely on the computer, or rather with the use of your body, which can definitely bring a human component to the music. Of course, it would also work with a controller plus VST, but then 2. comes into play. 2. the exploration and limitations of an instrument can trigger creative processes. 3. aren't we already sitting in front of various smartphones, laptops etc. far too much, which can also have demonstrably negative effects? 4. personally, I have found my own center again through computer-free music-making more than through anything else. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.
One thing people often overlook about acoustic instruments played by a master is their inherent musicality. Every master musician brings unique dynamics and articulation to their performance. When I listen to a track, I can immediately tell if it was performed live or created using a VST. Programmers of VSTs tend to keep everything perfectly on beat, with little variation in melodic lines and lacking some nuanced harmonic overtones. This results in a sound that feels flat, quantized and perfect, rather than musical. While this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it is a distinct stylistic choice.
Super thoughtful comment, I totally agree. And its one of the reasons back when I used to teach EDM production to students I would tell them to record in automation with the mouse live, even just a bit of humanization adds so much!
As a person who has worked in the electronics manufacturing industry in the past, there are a lot of hidden cost that typically go unrecognized and underappreciated. Sourcing the most sensible parts and services in the supply chain, holding an inventory of parts, distribution, R&D, manufacturing cost, gambling on whether the item will be a success or a flop, providing warranty services, facility and employee cost, retailer cut and that's not nearly everything. The synth market is niche and it can get complicated (expensive) with just the regulations alone. Profit margins aren't as wide as one would think. I don't know what it is like in Norway where Espen is from, but I doubt he understands everything about how the to operate a business in the USA. Especially now with inflation. Also we should not forget that a JP-8, P5, OB** were about $5000 back in the late 70's and early 80's. Do the inflation calculation and you will see that today's market it isn't so bad. By contrast a synth today that cost $5000 would have only been about $1500 in '81, about the price of a basic Juno 60 back in the day. I personally grow tired of hearing people complain about how much synths cost. We have more now that ever. If you want cheap but decent, buy Behringer, even cheaper, buy soft synths, they will get the job done, but don't poke the bear with people who want a modern poly by telling them they have been scammed, it's insulting.
Interesting to see the reaction videos. Espen was clearly going for the shock factor.. definitely got youtube talking about his channel. Not the first time he's done that kind of thing (remember the dead grandma/Roland boutique thing).
Mr. Espen might be playing us all. Synthesizers are not a scam, just an ever-changing business. Even a plastic box with an emulation engine can give people lots of fun. Some like it, others don't. There is a market for every user, and that is perfectly fine.
Yes all fully digital synths are VST in a box. The control elements of which can be really responsive, interactive, expressive, and IMO are better to play live than hooking up a keyboard to a computer. Analogue synths are a different story since they contain components which cannot be fully recreated digitally and for me sound better in their own way. There are some amazing sounding examples though of digital hardware synths which have exact VST emulations such as the Access Virus. The latest Moog analogue gear sounds wonderful too. And of course Behringer have cloned loads of old analogue synths and updated the hardware my fav is the Wasp Deluxe. Try them out at your local store if you can!
Not all digital synths are a VST in a box. Is a Yamaha DX7 and a Roland D50 a VST in a box? nope. They have hardware chips designed exactly for the job, those chips can do things to avoid aliasing noise such as variable sample rate. So while many have been recreated in software they won't sound exactly the same. The digital synths that are more akin to "a VST in a box" are those where they were using CPUs or DSPs to run software. Which is why some of these are now running on DSP emulators.
I think Espen’s second point was more that the envelopes and LFOs are often digital, on even flagship ‘analog’ synths? I think that is definitely a fair point/criticism.
It's no sin to charge what people are prepared to pay. There will always be someone at any given price point that 'can't afford it'. Most of the synth manufacturers in previous years went bust, so I think Espen's video is more about him gaining traffic at the disservice of dumping on businesses that he has not the slightest insight into the pressures to make these machines. He slated machines that I never thought would ever be re-introduced. Talk about taking something for granted. I'm grateful that Sequential and Moog and OB reintroduced some of their machines for the current age.
So for the first five years of Producing, I used only VST's. I have all the big name ones and plenty of third party expansions, sound sets, presets etc. While I've had and still have moments where playing certain VST's give me vibes, inspiration or even goosebumps. My first analog synth hit way different than even other digital hardware synths I have. For the most part I've sold off the digital ones as the same sound can mostly be had within a VST, I've never had the same emotional response from anything digital. I played my OB-6 for hours straight out of the box. I agree with Miles that you're paying for the package, and hopefully it inspires you. The sounds (analog / digital hardware or VST) your listeners hear on the record, may not be discernible to most people. But I personally believe it's whatever gives you the inspiration to create and make music that's right for you. DEMO your gear before buying.
A video came up on my feed today by The Bro, called Don't Waste Your Money On Toy Synths, but to buy cheap vintage synths instead. So i done a little research. I got to Espen Krafts videos, and he had a video saying Do Not Buy A Vintage Synthesizer, while praising them in other videos. So all these youtube videos are clickbait, full of disinformation, and leaving newbies more confused than they were before!
Espen is right. Everyone arguing are worshipers and have thousands invested. They of course will defend their 'investments', because they would never admit to being humiliated by a scam. Most modern synths are scams and the vintage hardware has been emulated in VSTs with precision. The hardware synth industry is ancient and has become a wasteland of overlap and VSTs in a box. I am in the industry and I will not comment on specifics.
I use both VSTs and real instruments (hired musicians who play what I write). Never used analog synths because I don't play keyboards and I rely on MIDI files. I love the sound of analogue synths (been a fan of Jean Michel Jarre's and Vangelis' music since I was a kid) and I don't know whether VSTs can emulate them up to the point to render them indistinguishable. I have two synths, but both are digital, and I use none of them because synths aren't my thing. I like synths, but I don't know how to use them. Shame on me. By the way, I've got a song titled "2000 Miles Away", you might like listening to it ;)
Absolutely agree with everything said in this video. I started full ITB deep in 90's (in trackers lol), went trough mixed setup DAW + hw, to full dawless hw only setups .. I subscribe every single world in this video..
When I was a teenager, my mom got me a badass synth. At the time it was damn expensive, and soon after the company went out of business. Ensoniq. I used the hell out of that synth. It has been all over my country and been played on many venues. I knew it better than anything else. Still to this day, 30 years later, I still have the muscle memory using it. Today I have a million VSTs on a Macbook, and while they sound great, they are IMO uninspiring and quite shitty to use. A hardware synth has its limitations, but I believe limitations are good for creativity.
I think you’re right. Having 200 vst keyboards likely hurts more than it helps. Shout out for Ensoniq also, I have two of them. I’ve only used Korg and Ensoniq boards.
That kind of conversation can go on forever. Next question would be: “Are paid software synths a scam?”. In theory you don’t need them either to make music.
so i was just horsing around with a take5 paired with a gaia2, learning/working out performance tweaks with the aftertouch,touch pad and the 2 mod wheels. ya i have 60+ music vids on my youtube channel so i dont "collect" hardware. i look at it more like a toolbox ( Autistic Einstein so no bs) and i use synths for my inspiration. there are performance things that can only be done with hardware too especially when all midi'd up and foot pedals,, mixer effects loops, etc. all added. just cant do that on a pc . but there's a workflow for everyone in or out of the box
@@jumpstar9000 so how do you like your gaia2? this little synth is way deeper than i thought and i have really appreciated the contrast to the analog take5. i'm still learning them both. these are the future too and fairly priced
@@jjrusy7438 I think it is absolutely great and incredibly underrated. The more you use it, the more it opens up with surprising possibilities, plus the interface is amazing. The Take-5 and the GAIA 2 are a very fine combo. I have a PRO3 that I use as a foil for the GAIA but I would very much like a Take-5 one of these days, it has a very sweet sound. I will go sub your other channel.
I just like to do Live Jams, I make a beat with drum machines and a sampler and then every synth, one sound, one melody, pad or bassline and just do a live arrangement all in midi. Takes up to 30 minutes to create something and I just jam for an hour. It's a great exercise. I also love creating new sounds and see where a synth can take me. Many times I don't even record, because I don't care about releasing any thing I create, but I do make some tunes, at least 2 a month.
I started to ignore that guy - last year, maybe? - when he went out of his way to denigrate TH-camrs who are doing a particular style of performance video: desktop gear; top-down view; small plants or other things around the gear. I see some snide thing like that and think, “Why? What’s the upside for you to insult people who’ve found their own path to making stuff and expressing themselves?” It had the same tone as this new broad-brush accusation of people just being gear worshippers. Ironic, since he had more vintage hardware than anyone I’d ever seen, except for Junkie XL. Until he sold nearly everything. Well, so did JXL … but with him, I only ever got the sense that he genuinely felt it was time to streamline. With this? I could be totally wrong, but in the greater context, this gives off the vibe of “I’m no longer able to afford my habit, and resent everyone who can.”
I mean hes right. Everyone is copying each other and its getting disgusting. No one is orginal just a carbon copy. How does not one see the problem with this???? Musicians and artists are to be individuals and creators. Not carbon copies. Whats happened to the art world.....,..
Behringer actually has a lot of R&D costs, and they release re-issue synths for much cheaper than other brands that charge an arm and a leg for old tech.
Guitar players have this exact same conversation when it comes to tube amps vs digital modeling, whether it's a physical amp like the Katana or something like Tonex software in the box. The answer is the same: you can get similar results with modeling, but from a workflow and inspiration perspective, the experience of the real hardware is quite different. And yes, hardware synths are cool, because they're the actual thing the VSTis are modeling.
First - I enjoyed your comments and appreciate your perspective. That said, certainly you can use VSTs and have access to all of the controls that you have on the hardware, but you have to use a keyboard and a mouse. But you FEEL more connected and inspired when you are using the sliders, knobs, and buttons on the keyboard. It's a more "intimate" connection than a cold PC, keyboard and mouse. There are many who share your feelings, and I certainly have purchased more than my fair share of synths in my lifetime. But I think Espen's position is NOT that we should all get rid of hardware synths and move to VSTs. It's that the price vendors are charging is WAY out of line with their cost to produce (including R&D). Also way out of line from a cost/value assessment. If you can afford to pay as much as they charge and feel like you are getting enough value to justify what you spend, good for you! But IMHO most of us are move more towards computer based solutions simply because we can't justify the cost of the hardware.
His statement is valid, but having the real thing is freaking amazing. I prefer to have them if i had the choice over vst which are kinda not that fun. Im with you . Cheers 🥂
@@LabofmusicRecords "I like the watches" lol That sounds like a huge cope. Watches have declined on average 33%. If you bought a Patek 5711 you lost 6-figures. Talk about a scam.
Very nicely done! The reality is there is no "right" answer to the debate. You can make great or terrible music in the box or with hardware. You can collect synths that you love whether it's software or hardware and that is ok if it makes you happy. Many of us in the synth world if we are being honest enjoy the tinkering and connecting things together and experimenting as much if not more than we enjoy creating music with them. Thanks to the advances in computing power, the lines have really blurred at this point between hardware and software and analog and digital as you demonstrated with your own music. It's an incredible time for those of us into synthesizers as you can get what you need to create at any budget from free to extravagant setups. Ironically Espen's TH-cam channel was built off all of his great hardware synthesizer demos of many of the flagship synths of the past and until recently he had a huge room of hardware synths himself. His videos have gotten a bit darker lately and away from the joy of creating music. Hopefully everything is alright. I love both of your channels. Please keep making videos!
Good argument & good advice. Having a few key hardware synths is actually really helpful to the overall creative process, and they don't have to cost a small fortune.
I watched Espens video first, and then this. I do feel that Espen has somewhat of a point. Yes, R&D cost, but companies are also living of the brand name alot. I also play guitar and when I use my Gibson in public, people tend to gravitate towards it but my handcrafted japanese guitar doesn't get that much love. The Gibson, despite being almost a thousand dollars more expensive is a much worse instrument. And I find this with synths as well. A Minimoog cost 5000 dollars on Sweetwater, a Behringer Model D cost 230. I get that it is locally sourced woods and it has a keyboard, but 2100% more expensive? It was made in 1970, you can't complain about R&D still. I would absolutely pay more to get the Moog, alot more. But 5 grand for a monosynth is a big sell. I would like to have hardware that works well, but some companies charge insane amounts for what it is. I don't care if it is digital or a VST in a box, as people complain about. Sounds good, is good.
A modern synth, even if it's just a VST in a box, is still better than a VST on a Computer because of the INTERACTION, but are less convenient. And there's still plenty of wonderful lower cost hardware synths, including from Behringer, that are an absolute bargain. And even the midrange are crazy good. The SE-02, for example, is amazing for the price. And I don't know of a VST that can match my Polyevolver, which is certainly expensive. But I'll use everything and anything. It's all good.
Great comment! This is what I am trying to say. Use what inspires you. Also very cool you have a Polyevolver, i hope to try one eventually. Jameson's video on it was great.
I have 25+ synths and i make some music as well.
I like Espen, but he's turning into a sour man.
That's the issue here, he is trying too hard to piss people off, it was only like 2 weeks ago that he made a video on how he deals with trolls, yet here he is trolling a whole bunch of people, without even getting the prices of the synths right.
I don't think anyone tried to gaslight him when he owned all that vintage gear, but when someone invests in something new, according to him it's now a scam.
He can think what ever he wants, doesn't make it true though.
Lol I just got my OBX8 when Espen released his video. It was a dream of mine to own an Oberheim it's been great using it.
I could use a VST, and I do but I just want hardware. It makes it more fun and I can feel what I'm playing more.
@@matthewcassette I got my 3rd Wave around a month ago, it was a shock to me looking at all this money I had spent, this had nothing to do with Espen or his video, then when I really sat down with it, I was marveling at how great a job they did with it, then it confirmed I made the right decision for the music I enjoy making.
That's all that matters and I don't care what Espen thinks, but he cares what he thinks.
@@DankePlace The 3rd Wave is Magic! Yeah, you can get some great wavetable sounds from VST's, and there MAY be little difference in sound (?) (not really convinced of that) but it just FEELS DIFFERENT playing my 3rd Wave!!! It's like putting a vinyl record on a Technics 1200 or pressing play on Spotify. They both "seemingly" get you to the same destination, but the real deal just FEELS SO MUCH BETTER!! 😃
Espen's music is soulless. He's a better engineer than songwriter.
I was a classically trained pianist as a kid and my parents couldn't afford to get me a synthesizer. When I got older, I started buying (and building) synth gear and now I've got an amazing studio. I'm busy with a family and job, so I don't get to make music very often. But I love looking at and playing with my synths. It fulfills the deep longing I experienced as a child. You only live once!
@@jasondbaker love to hear that. It’s very true.
People who race cars collect cars.
Sports fans collect memorabilia.
Why can’t musicians collect music equipment?
I use both hardware and software voice. The two are complementary, the former for feeling and pleasure, the latter for creative amplitude and freedom. I think Miles is actually responding to this youtuber when he's not really concerned by the criticism. Rare are the pseudo-musicians on TH-cam who produce something decent from their material. More often than not, they're not musicians, artists or creative people, but simply collectors devoid of any talent. More often than not, they're narcissists, incapable of communicating anything about their “art”, which they lack, and of which they're totally devoid. Neurosis, ego, but above all, easy money, all the more so since algorithmic community formulas based on commitment systematically over-value the most acculturated, the most follower-like, the most addicted, the most ignorant, the most liberticidal individuals. So, losers choose losers, losers choose losers, stooges choose stooges like Leauder, in all fields and on all the commercial networks we mistakenly call “social”. Most youtubers are swindlers, in the sense that they're impostors. This is very visible in electro music. The more talented a musician is, the less chance he has of breaking through from scratch. I'm not familiar with Miles Away's music, but after listening to what you did on ERICA's synth not long ago, I'm positive that Miles Away is a real artist and not an impostor.
Good point. Plus:
All the VSTs will probably not work in some years anymore, at least if you use one of the 2 main operating systems (Microsoft, Apple).
@@Waldemar_la_Tendresse I'm curious, why would VSTs stop working if you use those OS's? I switched to Linux and ended up not having access to quite of few former VSTs (got some back with workarounds, but not all). I have the freedom to use older computers as I wish, sure, but I does limit software options.
I may be wrong, but I think Espen's video is dedicated to musicians on a budget. A lot of us (musicians or not) are feeling an economic crunch these days. Therefore, if music making is your goal there's a straight line between investment and music creation instead of thinking that you need an ancient piece of American muscle (like a T-Bird) to accomplish a work commute (metaphorical).
If you are not a musician on a budget, you are 100% free to ignore or sling mud on Espen's video.
@@brianbergmusic5288
There are more than enough videos about incompatibilities and errors that occur with software and OS upgrades, you'll have to do it yourself.
After all, companies make a living from selling upgrades. It should be self-explanatory that the initial price is not the final price.
Many electronic musicians use a combination of hardware and software synths, as it should be.
I saw Espen Kraft's video earlier today. Although I'm a long-time fan of his, his video did make me kind of depressed.
I just bought a Groove Synthesis Third Wave (desktop module) a few days ago, and I've been playing the heck out of it. In fact, your videos on the Third Wave are what largely inspired me to finally get this thing, and I LOVE this synth, so thank you very much for that.
However, after seeing Espen's video earlier, it really made me feel like I might be a complete fool for spending money like that on hardware when I could just go back to software vst's, which is what I started with, many years ago. But then I realized a few things.
Espen mentioned the Waldorf PPG vst and implied that its a good substitute that only costs around $30.
I already HAVE the Waldorf VST and I NEVER USE IT. In fact, I only used it once, the day I purchased it. For whatever reason, it just does not inspire me. And to be clear, it isnt even in the same ballpark as the Third Wave, as far as features and the limateless possibilities from virtual analog, to wavetable, to user tables, to sampling, 4 part multitimbral, 24 analog filters, numerous high quality built in effects, knob per function control.... etc.
I sit down with the 3rd Wave, and Im genuinely inspired.
There is a reason I came back to making music after quitting for several years. That reason is because I bought my first hardware synth.
I have a channel here on TH-cam called Realms Official Music where I uploaded some of it, but I'm not great at making youtube videos, and I haven't uploaded anything in a while.
Im still using my hardware and making great tracks, but im just not releasing them because I do so many genres that not much of it fits together. Smooth Jazz, 80s horror, video game-y music, ambient.... It's too eclectic to make an album, so I released a couple songs here and there just as singles, but they dont get views. I'm sitting on all these tracks, and Im not sure what to do with them.
Anyway, I really drifted topics there. VST's are great, but hardware synths are their own thing. It's a different inspiration, which results in different music.
Your videos and music are excellent. Thank you for doing this very cordial, tasteful response video and Thank You for doing what you do.
Congratulations on your 3rd Wave. I have the keyboard and love it. I am glad there are companies like Groove Synthesis that build a quality, inspiring instrument and truly support their customers.
@trebleboost7 Thank you for that congratulations.. 🙏 I'm very impressed with the product and the company.
In the end, it doesn't matter what's inside the box with knobs and keys.. it's a hardware interface that gives instant access to tactile feedback and inspires exploring/creation.. this is what we should consider in the value of a piece of hardware providing the sound output is decent. It's all about the interface. There is otherwise not much that separates software/plugins from hardware (with software or not) instruments outside of purely non-electronic acoustic ones.. and software is getting close.. but only with the right kind of physical interface to drive it. Where plugins are interesting I think is where they enable leveraging the kind of processing power in a computer that you are unlikely to find in a dedicated musical instrument - to be able to do things a typical synth keyboard/hardware device cannot be expected to do. The lines are blurring though... embedded CPUs are becoming close to 'desktop class' in number crunching power, real-time circuit simulation and accurate physical modelling is becoming viable for 'hardware' synths. 3rd Wave is very nice.. tried it at NAMM.. was the best thing at the show when it came out IMO.
Who cares what anyone else says really?! What matters is that game you sit down with it you feel inspired. Comparison leads only to depression imo. Enjoy your gear and don’t let someone else tell you how you should feel about a product you bought and like/love.
@@osirismaximus2787 thank you! And great choice on the 3W. Learning to block out the noise of everyone’s opinions (including mine) is the key to being happy. It’s a freaking dope synth and I will never sell it (unless they make a 48 voice version… jk 😝)
Yeah that was a very off putting video. I have made plenty of music and only use hardware.... I have pretty bad adhd so having hardware keeps me focused on the music aspect and not surfing the web for example.
The fact that you live with a debilitating boundary, and are able to focus on what you do and do it exceptionally well, that's a credit to you and how you deal with it.
I would never have imagined that you have ADHD, your videos are genuinely focused, so what ever you're doing, keep on doing it.
@@YukiTheSynthDragon hello fellow ADHD synth musician!! It’s surprising how many of us there are, Benn Jordan talked about it too. Thanks for sharing that. It’s a big reason I enjoy hardware too. Appreciate you sharing and the videos you make for this community! 🙏
I heared you music...
As long as you can believie, do little sporrow
So happy to hear fellow adhd sufferers find comfort in hardware. My whole studio is built as a haven to indulge my adhd brain. The range of options, interaction and modulation just speaks to how I think.
Sticking my hand up too. The interaction of real controls is half the experience. Also usually hardware doesn't have as short a shelf life as virtual.
I do use my iPad as a synth though at the moment due to finance. I'd love an analog poly desktop again one day
Very nicely put buddy, with regards to his rant- I have never seen so much misinformation in one video. I have enjoyed Espen's channel for years, but personally I feel either he is the scam and has no real understanding of synths, components, inflation etc, or (MOST LIKELY) his video is just out there for clickbait. There is nothing factual in it. Prices were way way off, trying to lie to his listeners by saying hardware is a scam. Yes VSTs are great, and constantly getting better. Yes they have their place. However, after R&D, there are no manufacturing costs, no failing components, no hardware warranty to supply, no inflation impact, No shipping, Insurance etc etc. so trying to compare VSTs price tag against hardware is completely crazy.
I like Espen, and have always really enjoyed his channel, but I am afraid I lost a good bit of respect for him after watching that clickbait nonsense.
I supported him by posting he could sell what ever he wanted, do what he wanted, this was a year ago, then he posts this video and the comment he kept posting towards Azurestate regarding him being scammed because he bought a 3rd Wave, well you know I got one recently too.
EK just tried to make someone else's opinion invalidated all because EK seems to think he knows best, in this case he just looks like a fool, that's on him and I don't feel bad at all that I own a 3rd Wave, best experience I have had with hardware.
His loss, and many have lost respect for him.
Imagine trying to gaslight someone because of what they use to make music ? Lol.
@@scottmcauleysounds thanks man! Good wisdom in your comment, I totally agree
Espen raging about software envelopes on a ob-xa while sitting in front of a SCI SixTrak w/ software envelopes is not a good look.
@@BlackMan614 right? My Juno 106 and its software envelopes is one of my favorite possessions.
Matrix 12 also have digital envelope...elka synh also had and jupiter 6 and more
@@zivdayan8919 Exactly. He needs to know his history of synths better.
@@BlackMan614 It's not his opinion that bothered me, it's the way he said the things that in my opinion is terrible and on the criminal border.
Music for me is a place of peace
Espen's way of speaking in this video belongs elsewhere.
*OB-X8 … not OB-Xa. The earlier OBs had analog envelopes etc, which is what Espen is talking about/criticising the X8 for lacking …
It's just bad faith clickbait bs. Not even worth engaging with to stroke his fragile ego.
The odd thing about Espen's video is that his channel was literally built on a foundation of showcasing vintage analog hardware synthesizers. He has much of his large following ~because~ he did so many fantastic videos featuring the venerable classics. Then one day, he decided to sell them all... and did a complete 180 on his channel approach and attitude toward hardware. I'm not terribly surprised his viewers are 🤔.
And herein lies the issue, switch the manufacturer out and replace him as a seller of 2nd hand goods, what is the price he was selling his vintage gear for, market value?
If this is the case, most of his gear would have sold for more than what he paid for, inflation adjusted, so is he now scamming the people he sold to?
This is where the hypocrisy lies, and you cannot change that, the fact he tries to gaslight people because he as an opinion based on bias, well let's see how well this ages.
Yeah, I find his new stand on using hardware synths very ironic. How popular would his channel have been if he only made videos with him playing some VSTs? I don't think very popular at all. 😂And he's also contradicting himself on the topic. He says "I'm the 80s" but then wants you to believe you shouldn't use hardware synths (which they exclusively did in the 80s). Makes no sense!
He’s trolling… come on, im a boomer and even i got it first time
I don’t think hardware is a scam, but it is significantly overpriced. 100% sure
Note: Behringer maybe don't have design costs, but they definitely have engineering costs. Cloning requires non trivial amount of R&D, especially if you are cloning something made from no longer available chips.
And why synths don't get much recognition? This comes to two causes IMHO: Firstly, synths are little bit easier to play than for example violin (unless you play theremin, ofc). Secondly synths were marketed in past as easier/cheaper alternative to acoustic instruments (mostly pianos), so it makes sense they are perceived as cheap knockoffs.
Ha!
Great comment about Behringer, and the fact that they obviously also have costs.
Of course they do. They don’t just go to an Ikea like store and pick a few parts and “BAAM”😂
Just oosted a comment on that myself, before I read this comment.
I wished some had cloned the MiniMoog in the 90s as Behringer did with the Model D in 2017. It’s not quite easy to get it right, I guess.
Yeah, and they often add additional features to the vintage set
Yep, his ignorance about Behringer shows his opinion is pointless and who really cares what he thinks anyway....Obviously his fanbois do but since when does that mean anything....Carry on.
I think Espen is right. What's missing from this Miles commenting video is indeed the middle ground: Find yourself a good midi controller keyboard, and it will be your very playable, musician-responsive interface, to play those free VSTs. The knobs and sliders on your controller will do the job to control whatever you need to address your VSTs with. If hardware synths aren't scams, they are at least unnecessary, except to gear worshippers.
The clincher for me was seeing house of worship keyboard players using MainStage or Ableton with a good controller, for their live rig. I don’t hate hardware synths but I cannot stand their ridiculous pricing policies.
@@kennyzee3221 Agreed. Also for me, it's not just the pricing policies but the fetischism, or what I should call it. But some people have a thing for cars or model trains, so why not, really? I'm just not one of those guys :)
We are different like the synths we love.
I own an actual OB, idk what Espen is smoking when he says OBXd is a replacement lol.
what's the difference between the two?
I mean, does it *really* make a difference? Would people be able to tell whether you used OB-Xd or an actual OB-Xa in a final, mixed and mastered song? Even if they could tell, would they care? I can't think of a single song that failed simply because they used plugins instead of hardware.
@@JimmiG84As a musician, you care about the creation process as much as you do about the end product. With my music that‘s not drenched in reverb, delay and EQ, you strongly hear the character of the analog synths used. But not all analogs have the same strong character, I personally think the cleaner, more modern sounding ones are easier to replace soundwise. But for many, including me, that‘s not the whole point. It‘s the interaction with an actual real instrument. You don‘t go out there and tell pianists „Why did you buy this Bösendorfer for 150250€ when you can have a piano sample library for 129€“ „NoBoDy iS gOiNg To NoTiCe In ThE mIx“😂
Meanwhile, listen to what Mile Dean has to say on the matter: „I have about 50 keyboards. All of them have been upgraded to work with MIDI. They give me real sounds. They sound far better than soft synths. I just spent $15,000 on an ARP 2600, and it sounds so good, it paid for itself in a week. It has nice, warm distortion and wonderful oscillators. I have the Behringer clone and it sounds terrible, and the Arturia version, and while it sounds good, it doesn’t sound like the real thing.
“I also just spent $50,000 on a Yamaha CS80, and it sounds great, and nothing plays like it. Nothing has the same polyphonic aftertouch. I also bought a Roland Jupiter 8 this year, for $20,000. People talk shit about these instruments. When you have one, you can hear the difference with the imitations. The fact that the real synths are sometimes out of tune is what makes them so cool. It’s funky. It gives them character! I also use soft synths a lot, I’m not against them. But soft synths are like singers with Auto‑Tune. They sound very sterile.”
Dean is particularly a fan of Moog synths, and explains: “The Moog synths I use the most are the Matriarch, the Grandmother, and the Voyager for my signature bass sound. I have been to the Moog factory a few times, looking at prototypes and trying things out. The Voyager, Juno 106, Korg Triton and two laptops are my core setup live. One laptop is for playback and the other for sound sources, like my guitar sounds and stuff like that. But when I work in my studio in the box, I use mostly samplers, like Native Instruments Kontakt, and I also use a lot of Arturia stuff, for organs and so on.”
@@zxy7529 "But for many, including me, that‘s not the whole point. It‘s the interaction with an actual real instrument. "
That's my point though. Listeners don't care how you interacted with the instrument while making the song, they care about the end product. Of course if using expensive analog synths inspired you to create better music, they were subjectively worth it to you, but in practice, you could have achieved the same result with a plugin. People consistently fail to pick out the hw vs the plugin in blind tests, including raw, unprocessed sounds. Same goes for pianos, the "feeling" of playing a real, hand crafted piano is incomparable to playing a Kontakt library on a MIDI controller, but in theory you could achieve the same result with a premium Kontakt library and some processing.
@@JimmiG84 I don‘t fail to pick them apart in blind tests. It matters TO ME, and that‘s all that is important. I‘m even picky about the analog synths itself, many of them don‘t have enough organic character for me either. I can even pick the different hardware revisions of the Prophet apart, got all but one correct in that Alex Ball blindtest.
My hearing is very well trained at this point. There is no need to have an inferiority complex about using VSTs, they have their place and completely different strengths than analog HW. I use Omnisphere, Keyscape and exclusively VST FX (for convenience). But the day I‘m without my hardware synths or a piano, I‘m going to stop making and playing music.
Your comment about thinking a Kontakt library and some processing can replace a real piano i shows me you probably never played piano?
Because it really can‘t. I have libraries that aim to capture the liveliness but they are severely limited in either expression or sound character (in the physical modeling case).
And yes, I also don‘t like every physical piano the same. I love the warm sound of the scrappy old upright from the 1880s I started on, or the Bösendorfer range.
I feel the danger with the youtube sphere is that it can also cause a myopic view where you take what you are experiencing online together with your followers and those you follow as fact. As “this is how people feel in general” . I see so many gear video’s that I could forget that there is still a whole other world out there with completely different gear and more importantly completely other mentalities towards making music and art in general. TH-cam is a risky place, especially if someone is at an age that your outlook in life has solidified and lost its openness. You become the proverbial old man that hates everything;)
The ONLY thing that matters is the quality of music you create and release, nothing else.
@@RonWellsJSyour enjoyment of the process, and the mindfulness of creativity also matters 😊
Not if you create crap music. It might mean something, but it doesn't matter if the output is rubbish. There is a big difference.
Tasteful, common sense response - well done. I love Espen and consider him a friend, but I do think the "scam" premise of his video is really striking a nerve, and rightfully so.
I've got a lot of friends in the synth world, including manufacturers, and I can categorically state that no one is scamming anyone. It's a tough enough business to be in without accusations like that - that had to be difficult to read, especially by really small companies like Groove Synthesis who are absolutely killing it and making top notch synths. The profit margins are not that big. In fact, in their case, they are minuscule, all things considered.
Ultimately, you hit it on the head my friend: a physical synth is all about being a conduit to creating and feeling inspired. 😁👍🏻
You scammed me into buying a 3rd Wave, but I don't know where to send the money to, maybe I should just shut up and make some music?
Jokes aside, the word "SCAM" is the red flag here, Espen's 1st language is not English but surely he knows that "SCAM" means to take something from someone by deception, or illegality, that's not what is happening at all with newer releases, quite the contrary because some of the newer releases are actually cheaper than what they've replaced.
I think Espen has click baited his video to address the issues, but it has backfired somewhat due to the division he has created.
Inhalt had some pretty strong words to say about the topic.
@@DankePlace yeah, I agree. It was a very click-baity video, and I believe intentionally so. Espen is certainly known for having strong opinions (which is fine), but this one was a bridge too far, for a lot of people - and certainly for manufacturers.
Thanks man, yea I always wanna keep it respectful but I felt it was a bit disingenuous to try to distill down an entire instrument category to "you are being scammed and are a sucker, just use the hydrasynth or vsts". I can imagine it hurt to hear that for folks like the Groove guys who hustled for years while working second jobs to bring out the 3rd Wave, and then being told they are trying to scam people.
@@devinbelangermusic Hydrasynth IS a VST in a box, and it's a terrible one when it comes to UI, PEAK is far better but that's FPGA and has lovely FX section.
My Explorer is packed away as I find the synth very linear when you try to coax sounds live from it, menu diving, where's the mouse when you need it?
The difference between ASM and Groove Synthesis, I can tell you 1st hand when I reached out to ASM, I got nothing in response, I wont mention who, but they defended ASM saying that they were a small team, when I reached out to Groove Synthesis, I had 2 new firmwares the very next day, I think they have the same exact amount of people in their team as ASM do.
GS are what companies should be doing, and it doesn't matter that the 3rd Wave is expensive, they have no parent company like Medeli who more than likely funded the whole roll out of ASM, GS, yeah that's bank loans and hardwork from the gang who care to interact with their customers.
@@JimDaneker People will defend him, that's fine but when he uses a specific term in a hyperbolic way, that is discrediting some manufacturers of what they do.
When someone who has great gear can control a narrative that isn't necessary, then you will soon see the trainwreck that it will be.
Inhalt did a nice summary too.
We had a bit of back and forth in the comments... I think the issue is that he thinks the only nobel reason for a synth's existence is music production output. And if that's your only goal, a single package of "knobs, lights and faders" is unnecessary and expensive. But he's actively dismissing the fact that one can just play an instrument for the sake of it, as if art for the sake of art is a bad thing.
I must say that the feeling of touching hardware synth and affecting the sound is part of my pleasure and stimulation while playing live, and that I don’t have it with VST, even if on the sound point of vue in many cases the difference is hard to appreciate
Exactly! I totally agree. It's a luxury and VSTs are awesome, but good hardware is so inspiring
OMG thank you for this video. I have the same perspective!
I'm going to put here the comment I wrote in Espen Kraft video, hope you like it.
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It's not just about the sound. The experience of creating a patch in a plugin is very different from that of creating a patch in real instruments. -The 3 Wave, for example, is a 23-polyphony with high-quality analog filters. It's not a scam. Most of the time, it's the real cost for a small -------company to produce and develop these instruments.
If you can't afford it, that's fine. But calling it a scam is going too far. The way you're talking, you're devaluing the dedication someone had to develop these instruments.
Please try to spread peace and good vibes. Your videos often have themes that attack certain people or companies. It's okay to have these opinions, but you could make videos that are much more enriching and interesting for everyone than one like this that will generate controversy. You have many talents with music that can help many.
Peace!
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Love your channel and music!
24 note lol, I know you hit the 3 by accident, but that's 72 oscillators if you want to stack them!!!
3rd Wave is amazing, I have the desktop and it is so well sounding, some YT vids just do not do it justice.
Espen likes to click bait his titles, which in itself is disingenuous, irrespective of what the message behind his vid is.
@@DankePlace hahaha yes I hit number 3 lol
but yes exactly! I liked his old videos, but now that channel has become boring with these videos.
You lost the debate when you said 'spread peace and good vibes.' How about spreading facts and not emotions, but that is alien to you, I'm almost positive.
@@genx1144 there is no debate, guy posted an opinion, but according to you, you're going to gate keep his opinion, I mean now that's debatable.
I think Espen didn't have his muesli this morning, he seemed particularly hangry...or maybe just click-baity...either way, we're talking about him...and he's getting the clicks.
I wouldn’t use the word scam because it presumes a deceptive intent on the part of synths manufacturers. Now is Sequential, Moog or others are taking a huge profit margin on their synths, I’m pretty sure yes. However, I still have the option to not buy their synths if I feel that they don’t provide enough value. Personally I think it’s the vintage synths that are a scam due to their high price, low reliability and frequent need of service.
This is the correct answer
I am pretty confident Moog/Sequential aren't taking massive profits, but I can definitely see your point about vintage synths. Thankfully the market seems to be cooling a bit. That's just classic supply and demand for desirable collector's items. But agreed, the maintenance is rough
When your company is (relatively) small and production quantities (relatively) small, you might need to make a large-ish profit margin to pay your staff - that's not exactly a 'scam' though (small production runs don't benefit from economies of scale - so maybe the margins aren't as big as you would think). In the end the market will decide if the price of certain products is too high and if a company is viable.
@@wavesequencer I was just thinking this too. In the past I’ve bristled at moog and sequential prices, but I understand that bigger margins are necessary to keep these companies afloat. If you know anything about the history of synth companies, you know that financial ruin is quite common too
Well both Moog and Sequential companies were recently sold off to larger companies so they were not making huge tons of profit. The larger costs to components and labor to assemble in the US were major issues with Behringer copying all their products.
I think you might have missed some of the point that Espen was making... is a software emulation of a 70's/80's synth in a nice tactile box worth $4000 dollars. That's a lot of many to a great many people. Are people paying for something concrete or are they buying brand prestige/FOMO.
Paraphrased from the Oberheim website: software 'OS 2.0' update can provide a host of new features; that can only be true if (some aspect of) the underlying synth is actually software. I'd love to see a tear-down video, that should bury the debate... does anyone want to take a screwdriver to their $4000 synth ;)
1. The design of a hardware synthesizer is as much about the interface and tweakability as it is about the engine and sounds. It's about getting you to physically interact with the sound source. This in itself is worth a lot of money to me personally, even if it's just a digital VST inside that box.
2. R&D costs are everything to smaller companies. You are paying not just for all the R&D that went into the instrument, but also for keeping the company alive and afloat. This is reality for almost all small developers. Take a company like Arturia, which has about 150 employees. Say there are all developers, so electrical engineers, computer algorithms specialists, etc - those would easily earn 100k USD/year. So you're looking at yearly costs of 15 million dollars, just for salaries! Let's say it's JUST 10M to be generous. We're talking about very, very expensive businesses that have to stay afloat. At 4000 USD, the Polybrute 12 needs to sell 2500 instances a year just to break even. That's a very large number of units for a very small, cut-throat market of top-tier synths. You can't compare this to a VST company like u-He which consists of a single, very talented guy.
I've had a bad experience doing business with Espen, and even with that being said - I feel a little sorry for him. He just sold a good deal of old gear that kind of made him who he was (the 80's vintage synth guy) and it seems like he hasn't upgraded his computer system in like, forever. I think he also pulled down a lot of his music from Spotify, so he's probably going through some tough emotionally creative times. I know, it's not easy growing older in a world that sometimes feels like it's passing you by. Plus being isolated out in rural Norway may also be taking it's toll. If you read this Espen, I hope that you find your way out of this dark place and find some great musical inspiration!! 🙂
It's crazy. I have a respectable synth collection and really I use them mostly to inspire my creativity and jam when I feel the urge. My entire album catalog of music is 80% VSTs and 20% recorded hardware. I love my hardware collection and wouldn't give it up for going 100% in the box, but a lot can be said for the quality and ease of use of VSTs currently. I'm glad I have options is basically what I'm trying to say I guess. Great video, always enjoy your take on things. Cheers!
Synth have always been expensive. Back in the 80s new were unaffordable and unobtainable by many. A 3.5k synth back in the 1980 would have been 13k today (adjusting inflation).
We live in a golden era for gear, there are tons of options. Back then we weren’t that lucky.
With all the technology we have developed, building a piece of gear exactly as we used to does not make any sense. Only a minority of people ask for this. The reality is that people back then complained about long time for the synths to tune, were unpredictable due to weather, they could stop working, they were heavy, huge. Companies took note and gave us what we asked for. Now we complain that we want gear like they used to built them 🙄
I am happy with what is being produced now, you have a vast amount of gear at different prices. Compared to the 80s even these 3.5k synths are more accessible to more people now than what it used to back then.
Agree that there are pieces of gear that are ridiculously expensive and are geared towards certain people (people that can afford it).
To call it scam, I don’t know. Small companies will sell gear at higher prices. I used to built amps, and it was expensive to make them. Small operation, you can’t buy big bulk of parts. And having custom chassis made, as well as transformers is very expensive. In the end the profit margin was very small. So I can see why small companies prices their items higher.
I know it sounds offensive, but if you can’t tell the difference between analog and digital synths in terms I’d their overall sound maybe your ears aren’t that great/developed? I’ve been in the box for 20 years and finally getting a classic analog synth was an immediate impression of “wow” and still does that.
I’m also, minimally though not inconsequentially, a programmer of virtual synths and I can tell your there is no meaningful way I could replicate all of what happens in actual circuits that makes the final result special. And I’ve tried! You can go down a rabbit hole just for any one thing and quickly realize you can only do so much. I liken it to. GGI vs live actors. And some can’t tell that apart either! 😂
I admit it, my dream is to be able to have everything in the box. The convenience, the cost, the appeal to my minimalist ethos. It just makes total sense to me. Over the last 20 years, I've spent periods of time where I tried to it do all in the box, and every time I think "it's finally there" in terms of comparison in sound, I'll turn on a "crappy" analog synth like my Roland Juno 106 or Oberheim Matrix 1000 and within seconds it's like yeah, the plugins are not even close. Have the plugins improved massively from the early days when they all sounded like digital accordions? Yes, but they're still not there. And for those who cry "You can't tell the difference the mix", that is not the problem. The problem is what a musician hears and feels playing the instrument influences what they play. It's that feedback loop. And playing a plugin ends up with a totally different performance that many musicians can argue is far inferior. What I play on a free Oberheim plugin is totally different than what I end up playing on an Oberheim OBX8. The plugin only addresses the surface level. The fact is this: I would love nothing better than to be able to have everything on my MacBook Air and travel around the world and make music anytime and anywhere. But I still drag around my analog synths (my new favourite and most recent acquisition is the Kawai SX-240 of which there isn't even a plugin available) and I still have a pair of Neve preamps because I have to.
@@Patrick-pv9pe Kindred spirit here. I've actually taken the time to sample a lot of my synths, esp the X8 so I can take it everywhere on my Macbook and get the same sounds. VST emulations and things like Roland Cloud are very close, but still miss the mark. I can say my ears have developed well over so many ears and I instantly get a red flag with all the VST soft synths based on or inspired by the classics. It's a deal-breaker for me inspiration wise, but I still own way more than I reasonably should. They're great for quickly browsing through presets and getting recreating it on the real deal. And to your last point...I'm looking at the neve 1073opx8... yikes!
I can tell the difference side by side but in a busy mix with multiple instruments and mastering I can’t
@@devinbelangermusicThe key there is “in a busy mix”. For the most part, me too, and I felt silly trying to tell. Ive left vsts in mixdowns for that reason, I couldn’t tell and didnt swap the part out for the real synth to save time and effort. In that use case, it’s fine. If it’s a more prominent synth part, it can only have the real deal.
I'm with you on this. The sound you get from analog is a huge difference, and much more inspiring to me. Also, people don't realize how much easier analog is to mix due to the non linearity. Most of the plugins these days (Soothe, Saturation plugins, deessers, etc) are just used to make up for the fact that it is hard to get a mix blending nice and getting frequencies to play nice with each other, when it is digitally based. I understand that, objectively, people have varying levels of hearing sensitivity and some people genuinely can not tell the difference, but as an artist, if we can hear the difference, then it can be a huge motivating factor to sound the best we can, and for me that means analog.
I actually had the same thoughts in regards to Espen video. An example, I know the Juno X gets alot of hate, but when I played that instrument, it inspired me to compose, I cant afford it yet but to me that Synth felt amazing to me. The only synthesizer I own is a minifreak but somedays i just want to play something live as oppose to a VST and get inspired from the sounds of an actual hardware. End of the day to each their own and everyones opinions matter. Keep making music :)
I for one hear a pretty big difference with many of my analog synths. VSTs are cool but definitely don't sound the same and to me are not as inspiring.
Majority of what Espen said is true. But i still like hardware, and i still like to get excited about new products. He really wanted to like that Prophet X. Sold so much of his vintage rare equipment to sample into that Prophet X. So with all the bugs you hear about, i might be a little sour too.
the PX is no slouch though. i've had a PXL(no bugs), and sold it to finance a P10. bought a PX later, and it has no problems.
Love my PX. Any problems I've had Sequential has fixed for basically free. I use it every day. Super inspiring and has been working great. I've had it for 5 years. Its not like the PX was cancelled 6 months after it was released. It had a 6 ish year run. That's better than most.
hard agree... at the end of the day, it's your money. spend it on whatever makes you happy.
I sit at computer all day. I don’t want to sit at one and fiddle with VST’s to make music. Instead I go down to my studio, fire up GigPerformer, put it in record mode, and then jam away on my synth collection, drum machines, and electronic drum kit knowing any moments of inspiration are captured as both separate MIDI and audio tracks for each instrument. My 96-input audio interface means no stopping to re-patch anything.
I stand by this from Espen's video>>>>>
There is nothing clickbait about the content and title. He clearly said you can make the sounds in software for a fraction of the price. I saw NO ONE disproving that statement, and that is exactly why I do not pay those prices for ONE synth. I have one analog I paid $250 for which sells for over $1000,and it's the same OLD synth. It is NOT worth $1000, even in parts, and will cost more to service it as years go by than it's worth. $5000+ for one piece of gear? WHY?????Until someone disproves it can be duplicated in software, it's just a bunch of noise. I have great synths I paid $250, $200 for and the last one was $100 mint. I have multiple samplers so I can MAKE sounds from found sounds or straight synthesis. If you know about Reaktor, Macaw, PD, CSound, Buzz, etc,etc, you have the intelligence to know that paying all that money for gear is a SCAM . For example, you can make whole drum kits from banging on the table or voices, and create. Bodily Fluids was a whole LP made with founds sounds of the human body..
He NEVER said there is no USE for physical gear, he said the PRICE of some of them is TOO damn HIGH..If you're going to debate something the least one can do is argue the POINT,NOT a different or made up point .In fact, He said the HydraSynth is one of the few HARDWARE synths that is WORTH THE MONEY..What part was hard????? I can play my $100 synth connected to either my Ensoniq ASR10 or my Em-u samplers, and I am nOT restricted by the sounds installed in the machines, nor the filters. Now if you, you and you feel like paying $5000 for ONE synth, then take YOUR money, buy it and enjoy. What you are NOT going to do it LIE and suggest $5000+ is worth it, because of R&D. nor has anyone disproved his suggestions for sounds....
It’s fascinating, Miles, that when you’re describing a hardware synth at 2:41 as a conduit to achieving the sound you want, you include footage of yourself playing the only analog polyphonic synth that’s tempting me as we approach the end of September 2024, the one I affectionately call the “Thomas Elroy Oberheim Five”. I’m inclined to imagine that model is more of a value than the OB-X8, but I could be mistaken. Incidentally, I watched Espen’s review earlier today.
I literally just articulated pieces of this video in the comments in the original video. Awesome to hear you say the same things. Comparing hardware analog to VST emulations really weakened the overall spirit of the argument. I wish @EpsenKraft focused more on the gear chase and less on the cost/scam of these machines.
I think Behringer have plenty of R&D costs. It takes them years of development to clone a synth and even more years to bring it to market 😆
Behringer is cheap because of build quality compromises, made in china and scaling synergies (they get their parts very cheaply). They have R&D costs obviously but they can spread them out.
Anyways, the price/performance ratio is awesome, I have the Solina and MS-5 myself
This is true, I worked as a reverse engineer for quite some time. It takes a lot of skill to replicate a circuit without infringing on a patent.
It's all the "Behringer Bros" they have to pay to get the word on the street that they're releasing another clone of a clone in 2035.
@@zxy7529Made in China is not an argument. Everything is made in China these days.
I'd call them D costs, not R&D costs. Their research is literally deciding what to do next and reverse engineering. That's cheap compared to building something from scratch.
Very well spoken and articulated!! You can tell it was coming from within you and not some scripted video.... You have a very level, intelligent mind and I appreciated the way you made this video!!! Thanks for sharing this!!
I remember when you tried to get Espen cancelled, that was fun. Well articulated too fwiw.
@@DankePlaceEspen jumped the shark when he got high speed internet. Then he changed. UncleJerry wouldn't have his channel taken down. Stop the constant lying 🤥
@@RichKielbasa who ever mentioned him having Espen's channel taken down?
I did say "cancelled", because when your friend John got a DMCA filed for using Espen's content, Uncle Jerry told people to boycott and unsub from Espen's channel, that's cancelling, anything else you want to discuss?
@@DankePlace @RichKielbasa Thank you Rich! This guy has mental issues obviously and is seeking attention by trying to light fires.... Just ignore him (and any other like them) and eventually they go away... If not.. then that proves the dude is truly mental and we move on to higher countermeasures.... No one likes an asshole, but I'm a bigger person... This guy
obviously has deep issues... Just let him post away.... Doesn't bother me anymore
@@unclejerrysworld that's quite the potty mouth for an Uncle you have.
So when you attacked Espen, why is that?
John used his content without his consent and here you are playing victim again?
How's you channel with all those subs being bought going Jerry?
Great video response. It’s pretty simple: VSTs = paying for a result . Hardware synths = paying for an experience that leads to results. Both have a place and purpose in set ups .
Love hardware for all the same reasons, but it’s kinda absurd how much some of these boards cost. $3k used to be a crazy price for an instrument. Now, ya can’t even get the desktop version of alot of these synths for that price.
I can’t help but think that some of these manufacturers are aiming for “exclusivity”. The perception is that selling a big expensive synth somehow psychologically appeals more to pros and “synthfluencers”, whereas they could probably sell twice as many units at half the price.
Everything on the 'dollar' menu costs $5 now. It isn't manufacturers simply choosing to make everything more expensive just to do it, it is a fact of reality. The idea that they are doing it for 'exclusivity' without branding accordingly is literally just you imparting a motive where there isn't one. I do wish things were less expensive but it is what it is, especially when you're paying for analog components.
Great video! It doesn't matter whether one uses VSTs or hardware if the creative vision is achieved. My last three albums were almost entirely created with VSTs. Hardware is about the experience of interacting with an instrument. Having tangible controls and a more performance oriented experience. it is just a different paradigm and a way to create in a different way. I love both. As for the pricing and value of hardware, people forget just how much an Oberheim cost in the early 80s, somewhere around $5000USD, that is $15,000 in today's dollars adjusted. So you are getting the same synth with better manufacturing for far less. And who cares if somebody has a room full of synths and doesn't release any music, that isn't the point. It is about the experience and fun of playing these instruments. Enjoy and chill out!
Synthesizers of the future are going to be running individual knobs in Linux containers and different synthesizer subsystems like the envelopes and the filters in different virtual machines. To protect the integrity of the system all external ports and connectors will actually be run on separate Linux computers for true hardware physical isolation and they will communicate only through low latency encrypted and keyed messaging to authorized and factory certified components. Every sample emitted by the system will be part of a private blockchain for true attribution and monetization capitalization.
Espen doesn't realize synths made in the USA are under lots of taxes, such as property taxes, labour and various other things, higher US wags too.
and regulation - drives up expenses. osha costs money. environmental regs cost money. green energy costs money - watch the use of coal in china and india - if green energy was cheaper then they wouldn’t be burning coal.
@@russ254 exactly !
Another relevant comparison for the “price” argument, which would have probably been a more relevant video, is the difference between high priced instruments vs. lower priced instruments, such as guitars. The cost delta on these is much higher than synths for an arguably lower difference in function and quality. Often the price difference is based on the material, inlays, or even the limited production, with nominal increase in quality (subjective differences or preferences maybe, but that holds for all instruments).
My primary reason for hardware is the performative nature of hardware, a conduit for creativity and focus, limiting options, and the beauty and aesthetic of using them, which definitely pull me into the studio more often than the allure of the DAW screen!
I agree with Espen on the Hydrasynth. It’s my fav and the most capable. But not my creative go to.
Most importantly, do I love my expensive synths and feel good about my purchase? Yes I do. And that’s really the only thing that matters.
Great video man, Espen's channel is awesome too! Being in hybrid world for almost 20 years of music production- hardware inspires a lot though touch and of course accidents :) Sequentials, semi modulars and the Behringers (no I don't hate them) Its all great! But the convenience of MIDI and VSTs is amazing when the label wants you to do a last min key change and they have vocal sessions booked. Also traveling for work, I cant carry a truckload. Whatever inspires and fits someones budget, get it and make music! Switch it up when you are bored and repeat!!
My take on this is a product might indeed be "a VST in a box", but it's all about THE BOX - the user experience of physically turning knobs, *_especially_* during performance.
The box takes time and skill to bring into existence. There's cost involved in that which needs to be recovered through sales even when there are a bunch of standardized parts behind the front panel circuit board. This aspect particularly bugs me because my background is hardware design so I have direct experience which the glib "it's a rip-off" armchair experts lack.
The Roland AE-30 Aerophone Pro wind synth is "just another ZEN-Core" in a box but with its breath, bite, elevation, tilt, and pressure sensitive thumb pad it can deliver waaaay more real-time expression from that sound engine than the Roland Cloud implementation! It's not cheap by any measure and it's not perfect but considering it's a niche of a niche of a niche, it's not going to be Temu priced.
For me a mouse or generic MIDI control surface gives a generic physical experience that lacks mojo. And it's not just computer-based plugins - the MPC plugins are so fiddly and so static. Yes I could spend hours tweaking to fake an expressive performance, or I can just grab a hardware synth and get a better result quicker - and I'm not at all a virtuoso!
I tend to go for a VST when I know the sound I want to make. But when I'm in search of a new mood, it's the real hardware that gets me there. I will have a creative session on the Nymphes or Typhon that takes me places I never seem to get to on a VST even with all the knobs on the controller all mapped out. The exception being VCV Rack, that one is the softsynth that saves me from contracting Modual GAS.
Espen forgets many factors which make a vst in a box a good thing. Like playing with band and touring... i do not like bring my laptop. Also i love that software runs inside the synths gives us more options... i think there is more to it overall...
I think he’s right, you just need a workstation and you have 90% of the synth sounds you need
Yeah but it's bloody boring without dedicated knobs and such!
Don't get me wrong. I also started looking to my iPad to deal with my lack of spending power. Of course it wouldn't make a difference to a listener we don't need to be told that!
Currently missing my vst in a box summit cause of all its glorious knobs that do not need to be remapped...
If you are happy with mediocre sounds, sure.
You can't tweak a sound as easily with a mouse on a software synth as you can by turning a knob or pushing a fader. Yes, there are boxes that allow for this, but then you are right back to using hardware. But I suppose you are correct; you do get about 90% of it. Sometimes it's the last 10% that really makes it though.
I personally agree with Espen, there are many synths that take a lot of profit costs but then again, look at Roland and how much the latest Juno cost. So really paying 1000 more for a slightly more bespoke synth is not that bad. What is bad are people paying lots of money for an expensive synth on the back of GAS and getting heavy into debt. What I do feel that most synth manufacturers should do is return to the 19 inch rackmount version options, they offered affordability, stackability for the bedroom and gigging musician and less issues with keybeds etc for less. And no, desktops are not an equivalent to rackmounts.
@@tantatheindian7068 the Juno and Jupiter X are an awful example because you can get a Fantom from them and get the same engine plus a screen plus 3000 other sounds
It's just about being able to switch on and play. Not boot a computer, start a DAW, deal with OS updates etc.. If that computer is not dedicated to music you might have notifications popping up. The fact that tuning and electronics are so much better and more stable these days is not a sign of anything being "digital", just shows how the older synths were cruder. Having had a few analogus synths where you had to warm them up, tune them I'll take the stable tuning any day.
Oh and thes reason many synths are expensive is due to manufacturing in the USA or Europe instead of more exploitatitve countries. Behringher will be cheaper when it's make in China. This US manufacturing didn't however workout for Moog, they were bought out.
I'm a software dev so i spend 8+ hours a day working on the computer - the last thing I want when i'm trying to unwind from work is to sit working on the computer! I'm not trying to be a professional musician, or even necessarily write songs, it's just relaxation - having physical keys and knobs in front of me is a much nicer experience, and helps separate it from "work".
Thats ignoring the social aspect of hardware as well - what's a more social environment when playing music with a bunch of mates; each sat at your own laptop staring at the screen, or clustered round the same table each with a synth in front of you?
Espen, he's losing his mind, he's bought an armchair of complacency, and he's gotten worked up, and now he thinks he's Martin Gore. People can do whatever they want with their money, why does he buy hardware? Why doesn't he sell his Jupiter 8. one of the most overrated synths due to the current ridiculous price. He made a song exclusively with vsti and it sucked. It sounded bad. but it is he who did not dress them. As a musician I find it mediocre. but his channel was good because it informed you about vintage material. but that red armchair has changed him
Love that everyone is taking Espen down like this, the guy is a real arse.
I totally agree. I am a KORG sound developer and I know how much research costs from a simple device to a musical instrument. Also a beautiful instrument brings extra inspiration for musicians.
what a cool career!! thank you for sharing!
I think that Espen is only bitter because of the problems with his Prophet x.
If you have the money and want good and creative tools, whats the problem?
Its much more fun and creative to play around with a 3rd wave or a Prophet 10 than clicking a mouse and look into a computer screen.
Also the obx8, moog muse etc are much better looking than a random PC.
Its the same with cars, watches, houses, clothes etc, you can live in a small appartement an drive a little Fiat, still people choose to live in big houses and drive BMWs and Audis.
I agree. Playing with hardware synths is more fun and inspiring then clicking some buttons on your computer screen. Maybe Espen was running out of money and needed to sell his synths and is now trying to justify this to himself by bad mouthing hardware synths. I don't know.. But he seems to forget what made his channel popular in the first place. It wasn't clicking buttons in a VST!
All he needs to do is reach out to Sequential. They'll send him parts and presto!
Man, the first time I got an analog synth, the Prophet 08, I was like… ooooh yeah, that’s what I’ve been missing. It IS in the sound. Same with analog compressors. I tried all my SSL style VST compressors and my Wes Audio Dione SSL “clone” and the hardware won every time on the mix. Analog sounds more natural and alive. Period.
Some people do treat acoustic instruments like they are pointless. Seems the big misunderstanding with synths is, some people treat them all as one "same" instrument. True many synths are similar but some could NOT be more different. Not all synths are "programs in a box".
I had a room full of synths in the 80s. I much prefer VSTs these days because of lower cost, speed, total recall, automation ability, and space and electricity savings. You do you, boo!
Buyer's market. If I like spinning and collecting vinyl, I don't have to care about someone's opinion that I could just save the money and listen the tracks on TH-cam or buy them digitally.
I like to feel the music in my hands. I have way more deeper interest and attachment into physical formats than files on a hard drive.
For the same reason the PlayStation fans were angry at Sony just a week ago that their new console doesn't even have a disc drive. Physical formats matter to people.
Maaannn TY, that's why I'm a hybrid when it comes to VST'S and HW Synths, a proud owner of 8 HW Synth and TONS of Vst's and I can tell you sometimes I dontbturn on any HW I stay in the box, there are other days I'll turn on my Prophet X and I'll use the heck out of it. Like you said you are paying for the experience of playing and messing with knobs and faders‼️
Should software engineer work for free cos their work is a "scam"?
I think in the case of people who have owned or played many if not most of the synths that have been out there, it's possible to get gear fatigue. You can get to a point where too much gear just gets in the way. You want the gear that is absolutely essential to get your work done, and that's it. And for many people, when they get comfortable with having all their sounds "in the box" so to speak, then it's just so convenient to load up a VST of the synth you want, rather than having to take down a synth to free up a stand, put it away, go get the other one you want to you, and hook that up instead etc.
And when you see lots of new gear coming out, with firmware bugs on release, reminding you that "this is just like any other VST I could have running on my PC", then it's easy to feel a bit ripped off. Which I totally can understand.
Also, I don't think Espen Kraft meant to say that "hardware synths" in general are a scam, but that many of the high end/flagship synths that have been released the last few years and upcoming ones, are the ones that can easily come across as "scams". He specified that he used extreme wording, so I think in more nuanced terms, he means that they are overpriced for what you actually get. I mean, with many high end synths, if you look at the keybeds they use (usually Fatar), and you check out what Fatar charges for a StudioLogic midi keyboard (or Numa Piano for that matter), with usually better keybeds, then that part certainly isn't where your €5000 goes. How much does the electronics themselves cost? The synths certainly don't contain hardware on the level of what you find in a PC for example. The knobs and faders? Displays? Honestly, I think the profit margins on many of these are quite high. BUT, the total number of sales of high end synths usually also isn't that high. Certainly not in the millions. Probably not even in the hundreds of thousands, unless we're talking Yamaha or Roland. Normally, it's the slightly lower spec gear that sells in quantities. So in order for these companies to pay their employees, their rent, parts suppliers, etc. Well, they probably need a pretty high profit margin.
I disappointedly watched his video and then unsubscribed from his channel. Having digital controls does not make analog synths "VSTs in hardware boxes." For example, DCOs are analog oscillators regardless of their digital control. His video spread misinformation, conflating aspects of digital and analog synths, and showcased a lack of synth knowledge (both in signal path and development).
Each time I switch on my hydrasynth, I don't feel I have been scammed at all. Arturia's Pigments 5 could do most of the things the same as a vst of course. But the quality of the product cannot be denied. It has top notch components and it delivers in terms of functionalities.
State Azure also has a ton of hardware, and makes awesome music. He does use plugins quite a bit too though.
Totally! State Azure is so talented!
Espen is right about one thing, these manufacturers are just charging obsurd amount of $ when you can get a UBXA 16 voice analog for 800-1000$ or a Hydrasynth for 499$ starting price. No reason to charge 5k and make them unobtainable by many. Behringer synths don't break, at least some of mine like the Model D Neutron and RD-8 are 5 years old and still run flawlessly.
Behringer wins because most of US are going to buy a 2600 for 499$ vs 2000
I've also started with only software but using more and more hardware synths these days. I think that the hardware picked up a lot over the last 3 years and still growing strong.
In my opinion, Espen Kraft is overlooking several points here:
1. it very much depends on the type of music, whether you create it entirely on the computer, or rather with the use of your body, which can definitely bring a human component to the music. Of course, it would also work with a controller plus VST, but then 2. comes into play.
2. the exploration and limitations of an instrument can trigger creative processes.
3. aren't we already sitting in front of various smartphones, laptops etc. far too much, which can also have demonstrably negative effects?
4. personally, I have found my own center again through computer-free music-making more than through anything else. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.
One thing people often overlook about acoustic instruments played by a master is their inherent musicality. Every master musician brings unique dynamics and articulation to their performance. When I listen to a track, I can immediately tell if it was performed live or created using a VST. Programmers of VSTs tend to keep everything perfectly on beat, with little variation in melodic lines and lacking some nuanced harmonic overtones. This results in a sound that feels flat, quantized and perfect, rather than musical. While this isn’t necessarily a bad thing, it is a distinct stylistic choice.
Super thoughtful comment, I totally agree. And its one of the reasons back when I used to teach EDM production to students I would tell them to record in automation with the mouse live, even just a bit of humanization adds so much!
As a person who has worked in the electronics manufacturing industry in the past, there are a lot of hidden cost that typically go unrecognized and underappreciated. Sourcing the most sensible parts and services in the supply chain, holding an inventory of parts, distribution, R&D, manufacturing cost, gambling on whether the item will be a success or a flop, providing warranty services, facility and employee cost, retailer cut and that's not nearly everything. The synth market is niche and it can get complicated (expensive) with just the regulations alone. Profit margins aren't as wide as one would think. I don't know what it is like in Norway where Espen is from, but I doubt he understands everything about how the to operate a business in the USA. Especially now with inflation. Also we should not forget that a JP-8, P5, OB** were about $5000 back in the late 70's and early 80's. Do the inflation calculation and you will see that today's market it isn't so bad. By contrast a synth today that cost $5000 would have only been about $1500 in '81, about the price of a basic Juno 60 back in the day. I personally grow tired of hearing people complain about how much synths cost. We have more now that ever. If you want cheap but decent, buy Behringer, even cheaper, buy soft synths, they will get the job done, but don't poke the bear with people who want a modern poly by telling them they have been scammed, it's insulting.
Interesting to see the reaction videos. Espen was clearly going for the shock factor.. definitely got youtube talking about his channel. Not the first time he's done that kind of thing (remember the dead grandma/Roland boutique thing).
We hear the same thing about VST synths.. Too many people creating the same thing over and over to get a buck. I'm just glad to have options..
Mr. Espen might be playing us all. Synthesizers are not a scam, just an ever-changing business. Even a plastic box with an emulation engine can give people lots of fun. Some like it, others don't. There is a market for every user, and that is perfectly fine.
Yes all fully digital synths are VST in a box.
The control elements of which can be really responsive, interactive, expressive, and IMO are better to play live than hooking up a keyboard to a computer.
Analogue synths are a different story since they contain components which cannot be fully recreated digitally and for me sound better in their own way.
There are some amazing sounding examples though of digital hardware synths which have exact VST emulations such as the Access Virus.
The latest Moog analogue gear sounds wonderful too.
And of course Behringer have cloned loads of old analogue synths and updated the hardware my fav is the Wasp Deluxe.
Try them out at your local store if you can!
Not all digital synths are a VST in a box. Is a Yamaha DX7 and a Roland D50 a VST in a box? nope. They have hardware chips designed exactly for the job, those chips can do things to avoid aliasing noise such as variable sample rate. So while many have been recreated in software they won't sound exactly the same. The digital synths that are more akin to "a VST in a box" are those where they were using CPUs or DSPs to run software. Which is why some of these are now running on DSP emulators.
I think Espen’s second point was more that the envelopes and LFOs are often digital, on even flagship ‘analog’ synths? I think that is definitely a fair point/criticism.
It's no sin to charge what people are prepared to pay. There will always be someone at any given price point that 'can't afford it'. Most of the synth manufacturers in previous years went bust, so I think Espen's video is more about him gaining traffic at the disservice of dumping on businesses that he has not the slightest insight into the pressures to make these machines. He slated machines that I never thought would ever be re-introduced. Talk about taking something for granted. I'm grateful that Sequential and Moog and OB reintroduced some of their machines for the current age.
So for the first five years of Producing, I used only VST's. I have all the big name ones and plenty of third party expansions, sound sets, presets etc. While I've had and still have moments where playing certain VST's give me vibes, inspiration or even goosebumps. My first analog synth hit way different than even other digital hardware synths I have. For the most part I've sold off the digital ones as the same sound can mostly be had within a VST, I've never had the same emotional response from anything digital. I played my OB-6 for hours straight out of the box. I agree with Miles that you're paying for the package, and hopefully it inspires you. The sounds (analog / digital hardware or VST) your listeners hear on the record, may not be discernible to most people. But I personally believe it's whatever gives you the inspiration to create and make music that's right for you. DEMO your gear before buying.
I wish I could have a room full of top synths but I cant afford them nor spare the room so thankfully modern VSTs are amazing so I'm happy with them.
A video came up on my feed today by The Bro, called Don't Waste Your Money On Toy Synths, but to buy cheap vintage synths instead. So i done a little research. I got to Espen Krafts videos, and he had a video saying Do Not Buy A Vintage Synthesizer, while praising them in other videos. So all these youtube videos are clickbait, full of disinformation, and leaving newbies more confused than they were before!
Espen is right. Everyone arguing are worshipers and have thousands invested. They of course will defend their 'investments', because they would never admit to being humiliated by a scam. Most modern synths are scams and the vintage hardware has been emulated in VSTs with precision. The hardware synth industry is ancient and has become a wasteland of overlap and VSTs in a box. I am in the industry and I will not comment on specifics.
I use both VSTs and real instruments (hired musicians who play what I write). Never used analog synths because I don't play keyboards and I rely on MIDI files. I love the sound of analogue synths (been a fan of Jean Michel Jarre's and Vangelis' music since I was a kid) and I don't know whether VSTs can emulate them up to the point to render them indistinguishable. I have two synths, but both are digital, and I use none of them because synths aren't my thing. I like synths, but I don't know how to use them. Shame on me.
By the way, I've got a song titled "2000 Miles Away", you might like listening to it ;)
Absolutely agree with everything said in this video. I started full ITB deep in 90's (in trackers lol), went trough mixed setup DAW + hw, to full dawless hw only setups .. I subscribe every single world in this video..
When I was a teenager, my mom got me a badass synth. At the time it was damn expensive, and soon after the company went out of business. Ensoniq. I used the hell out of that synth. It has been all over my country and been played on many venues. I knew it better than anything else. Still to this day, 30 years later, I still have the muscle memory using it. Today I have a million VSTs on a Macbook, and while they sound great, they are IMO uninspiring and quite shitty to use. A hardware synth has its limitations, but I believe limitations are good for creativity.
I think you’re right. Having 200 vst keyboards likely hurts more than it helps. Shout out for Ensoniq also, I have two of them. I’ve only used Korg and Ensoniq boards.
I'm not even a musician and I have GAS. The hardware is just too lovely to resist.
Amen. I like the light flashy levelly thing on the left in the video clip of someone playing an all black mini keyboard! THAT inspires me.
That kind of conversation can go on forever. Next question would be: “Are paid software synths a scam?”. In theory you don’t need them either to make music.
so i was just horsing around with a take5 paired with a gaia2, learning/working out performance tweaks with the aftertouch,touch pad and the 2 mod wheels. ya i have 60+ music vids on my youtube channel so i dont "collect" hardware. i look at it more like a toolbox ( Autistic Einstein so no bs) and i use synths for my inspiration. there are performance things that can only be done with hardware too especially when all midi'd up and foot pedals,, mixer effects loops, etc. all added. just cant do that on a pc . but there's a workflow for everyone in or out of the box
Hey fellow GAIA2 enjoyer! Some nice videos you have up on your channel, look forward to you doing more! And yes, I agree.
@@jumpstar9000 so how do you like your gaia2? this little synth is way deeper than i thought and i have really appreciated the contrast to the analog take5. i'm still learning them both. these are the future too and fairly priced
@@jjrusy7438 I think it is absolutely great and incredibly underrated. The more you use it, the more it opens up with surprising possibilities, plus the interface is amazing. The Take-5 and the GAIA 2 are a very fine combo. I have a PRO3 that I use as a foil for the GAIA but I would very much like a Take-5 one of these days, it has a very sweet sound. I will go sub your other channel.
I just like to do Live Jams, I make a beat with drum machines and a sampler and then every synth, one sound, one melody, pad or bassline and just do a live arrangement all in midi. Takes up to 30 minutes to create something and I just jam for an hour. It's a great exercise. I also love creating new sounds and see where a synth can take me. Many times I don't even record, because I don't care about releasing any thing I create, but I do make some tunes, at least 2 a month.
I started to ignore that guy - last year, maybe? - when he went out of his way to denigrate TH-camrs who are doing a particular style of performance video: desktop gear; top-down view; small plants or other things around the gear. I see some snide thing like that and think, “Why? What’s the upside for you to insult people who’ve found their own path to making stuff and expressing themselves?”
It had the same tone as this new broad-brush accusation of people just being gear worshippers. Ironic, since he had more vintage hardware than anyone I’d ever seen, except for Junkie XL. Until he sold nearly everything. Well, so did JXL … but with him, I only ever got the sense that he genuinely felt it was time to streamline.
With this? I could be totally wrong, but in the greater context, this gives off the vibe of “I’m no longer able to afford my habit, and resent everyone who can.”
what's the upside to yet another top down video of ambient noodling with little potted succulents?
😢 I think he was talking about me😅
I find it really hard to write new music now that all my succulents have died... my studio feels so .... empty.
I mean hes right. Everyone is copying each other and its getting disgusting. No one is orginal just a carbon copy. How does not one see the problem with this????
Musicians and artists are to be individuals and creators. Not carbon copies. Whats happened to the art world.....,..
Behringer actually has a lot of R&D costs, and they release re-issue synths for much cheaper than other brands that charge an arm and a leg for old tech.
I haw begringer synthesizers, the quality is not the best. But it's cheap, so I just give away the broken one an buy a new😎😎
Guitar players have this exact same conversation when it comes to tube amps vs digital modeling, whether it's a physical amp like the Katana or something like Tonex software in the box. The answer is the same: you can get similar results with modeling, but from a workflow and inspiration perspective, the experience of the real hardware is quite different. And yes, hardware synths are cool, because they're the actual thing the VSTis are modeling.
First - I enjoyed your comments and appreciate your perspective. That said, certainly you can use VSTs and have access to all of the controls that you have on the hardware, but you have to use a keyboard and a mouse. But you FEEL more connected and inspired when you are using the sliders, knobs, and buttons on the keyboard. It's a more "intimate" connection than a cold PC, keyboard and mouse.
There are many who share your feelings, and I certainly have purchased more than my fair share of synths in my lifetime.
But I think Espen's position is NOT that we should all get rid of hardware synths and move to VSTs. It's that the price vendors are charging is WAY out of line with their cost to produce (including R&D). Also way out of line from a cost/value assessment.
If you can afford to pay as much as they charge and feel like you are getting enough value to justify what you spend, good for you! But IMHO most of us are move more towards computer based solutions simply because we can't justify the cost of the hardware.
His statement is valid, but having the real thing is freaking amazing. I prefer to have them if i had the choice over vst which are kinda not that fun. Im with you . Cheers 🥂
for me music production is a hobby. I have no idea how to play a synth, but I like to have them and play around. I also collect watches 😂
Watches got crazy overpriced a few years ago and were complete scams. The prices are still falling today.
@@Patrick-pv9pe same as the plugins, all complete overrated 😂 I am collecting because I like the watches and not for the profit 😉
@@LabofmusicRecords "I like the watches" lol That sounds like a huge cope. Watches have declined on average 33%. If you bought a Patek 5711 you lost 6-figures. Talk about a scam.
@@Patrick-pv9pe I don't care about money, I just like them, that's all.
@@LabofmusicRecords You enjoy losing $100k+ on a watch because you "like" it? Yeah ok 🙃
Some people are collectors, as well as composers/musicians. Espen did sell some of his gear some time ago.
Very nicely done! The reality is there is no "right" answer to the debate. You can make great or terrible music in the box or with hardware. You can collect synths that you love whether it's software or hardware and that is ok if it makes you happy. Many of us in the synth world if we are being honest enjoy the tinkering and connecting things together and experimenting as much if not more than we enjoy creating music with them. Thanks to the advances in computing power, the lines have really blurred at this point between hardware and software and analog and digital as you demonstrated with your own music. It's an incredible time for those of us into synthesizers as you can get what you need to create at any budget from free to extravagant setups. Ironically Espen's TH-cam channel was built off all of his great hardware synthesizer demos of many of the flagship synths of the past and until recently he had a huge room of hardware synths himself. His videos have gotten a bit darker lately and away from the joy of creating music. Hopefully everything is alright. I love both of your channels. Please keep making videos!
Good argument & good advice. Having a few key hardware synths is actually really helpful to the overall creative process, and they don't have to cost a small fortune.
I watched Espens video first, and then this. I do feel that Espen has somewhat of a point. Yes, R&D cost, but companies are also living of the brand name alot. I also play guitar and when I use my Gibson in public, people tend to gravitate towards it but my handcrafted japanese guitar doesn't get that much love. The Gibson, despite being almost a thousand dollars more expensive is a much worse instrument. And I find this with synths as well. A Minimoog cost 5000 dollars on Sweetwater, a Behringer Model D cost 230. I get that it is locally sourced woods and it has a keyboard, but 2100% more expensive? It was made in 1970, you can't complain about R&D still. I would absolutely pay more to get the Moog, alot more. But 5 grand for a monosynth is a big sell. I would like to have hardware that works well, but some companies charge insane amounts for what it is. I don't care if it is digital or a VST in a box, as people complain about. Sounds good, is good.
A modern synth, even if it's just a VST in a box, is still better than a VST on a Computer because of the INTERACTION, but are less convenient. And there's still plenty of wonderful lower cost hardware synths, including from Behringer, that are an absolute bargain. And even the midrange are crazy good. The SE-02, for example, is amazing for the price. And I don't know of a VST that can match my Polyevolver, which is certainly expensive. But I'll use everything and anything. It's all good.
Great comment! This is what I am trying to say. Use what inspires you. Also very cool you have a Polyevolver, i hope to try one eventually. Jameson's video on it was great.
@@devinbelangermusic Exactly. We are blessed to live in this age of so many wonderful options!