@@starhound45 I haven't seen the vid yet, so I don't know if Jay and Stu brought this up, but can we just address that Swarm and Azure's motivation boils down the the Evil Dan "What's the point of being alive?" and "What's the point of being alive if not to make others die." meme lines?
Ok but can we talk about how good the 12th doctor episode "World and enough time" is? Bill getting a whole ass new hole put in her and having the actual consequences of that was shocking and right out of left field, the use of actual science in the time difference from the black hole in a very interesting way, how the reason bill couldn't be saved in time being from the doctor's own hubris as he wasted time giving a lecture like the actual professor he was, the entire story of the master and bill (I didn't actually see the twist coming) the RETURN OF THE MONDASIAN CYBERMEN in such a creepy and amazing way. It feels like a big love letter to the original concept of the cybermen in an amazing way. I love that episode.
There have been some great finales over the years, and WEaT is definitely one of the best. Just the way the Doctor seems overwhelmed and almost elderly because of the stress of the situation is great. I do wish they'd kept the bittersweet ending and not used magic at the end, but still.
@@PlatinumAltaria I liked how they worked the pilot in honestly, bill deserved a happy ending after all she went through. But, I do feel like it wasn't set up well enough, maybe the pilot should've showed up a bit more throughout the series?
The only problems with World Enough and Time are that all the reveals were spoiled months before, and that The Doctor Falls wasn't very good. So the only problems aren't anything to do with World Enough and Time at all!
It just occurred to me that they could have their cake and eat it kind of with the timeless child by having the portal it came from just lead back to gallifrey on the future, and they were still just a random time lord
@@thatoneguy4452 doesn’t Tecteun or Swarm say that Earth is where the flux is converging to? And the flux was right outside of Earth’s shield so that would imply the rest of our solar system was gone, including the sun and moon.
@@thatoneguy4452 but the flux was washing over earth in the first or second episode and only the Lupari shield saved the planet. So what's the theory here, that the flux maneuvered around all the other planets and the sun?
the flux being stopped by the ships reminded me of the destroying the time lord memory matrix by uploading time lord memories into it - like it's designed to destroy everything in the universe by people who know about the lupari because they employ lupari, how is lupari technology enough to just completely stop it?
That's an excellent point re the Matrix Overload - another trope for Jay's next parody. The Lupari having the technology to block the Flux is one contrivance. The fact the race that have it are duty bound to protect Earth is a second. That their "leader" is ALSO the last Division Operative that is supposedly left in the Universe is a third. That they are also the character the Doctor was chasing is connected to the third I suppose, but a fourth is that this character used to be the Doctor's companion.....
@@leipherd8118 If I had to headcanon an explanation, the flux is designed to be stoppable by the Lupari because they're employed by the Division and need something to protect Earth, Earth basically being the one place the doctor is guaranteed to return to. Another contrivance is that despite working for the division and having the technology to stop the flux, the entire Lupari species was present in the last bit of the universe to be genocided by potatomen, you'd think the division would keep some at home for safe keeping.
@@whiskeyhound and they had just enough ships to completely form a shield, which was not their initial plan, but the Doctors (anyone work out how big each ship would have to be to form an unbroken shield? Or was Chibnall just watching GOTG?). When just one defects/malfunctions? they have to recall a contrived extra ship on which is contrived to be Bel. So just on this single plot point of the Lupari we are closing in on double figure contrvances
@@leipherd8118 I almost feel sorry for the people who want to defend this show and have to constantly come up with explanations for what's being shown to them and why it's happening. Especially since my headcanon which was formed from nothing more than watching a few episode reviews and is contrived as hell still seems to make more sense than the actual show.
My problem is more that throwing three fleets at it is enough to stop it. I mean that's way less than the mass of a planet. Also you'd think that Tektedumb knew how much matter was in the universe and made enough anti matter to annihilate it...
As a fellow member of the dyspraxic community Jay how dare you terrify us with the existence of bicycles. It is all of our greatest fear: to be trapped in a corner by them
my last 3 brain cells tried so hard to understand this finale and they still got absolutely fried. i love how that in the end the main villains just got thanosed in the last 5 minutes and di was the saviour that came up with the idea to save the universe. (also did Chibnall forget to put in a scene where they restore the universe again cause im pretty sure that half the universe was destroyed?) Anyways cant wait for the new years special, its gonna be a blast!
I mean, if you just ignore the 27 plotlines that weren't relevant, the universe being destroyed with no wrap up.. it can work..? Wait.. Tecteun being behind it all..to just ramble exposition and disintegrate, no that didn't go anywhere But hey, the real villains! ..also just get killed unceremoniously Damn, hm.. at least vinder and her ended up being the doctors parents and relevant to the story..no wait. Oh, & somehow 13 managed to outdo the bad writing and moral assassination of spiders and siccing Nazis on the master by genociding 3 races hahah. Which don't hlme wrong, could work in a better story, I totally side with metacrisis doctor in his case Seriously what a dumpster fire cluster fuck hahaha
@@KaladinVegapunk Vinder and Belle being the doctor’s parents wouldn’t have been good storytelling nor would it have made them relevant to the story. I really don’t understand why people think this.
The woman in end of time was implied to be his mom But RTJ and another writer were saying it was meant to be able to be seen as any time lady ally, Romana, his granddaughter or mum
Doctor: "The only way to bring back the universe is to reset time to before I met you!" Yaz: "But Doctor, that means I'll lose all memories of our well-established and very existent relationship!" Doctor: "I'm sorry Yaz, it's the only way!" Character we've never seen before: runs in and pushes the button so 13 doesn't have to Then 13 wakes up in a hospital having fallen through the roof of a train, and regenerates into Jo Martin. That's the only way this era can be redeemed.
Okay, theres a certain doctor who toy/game called doctor who story cubes, you can roll them and they give you a set of images that you can make a story out of This is what chibnall used to write
How did Kate Stewart end up with the TARDIS in the Williamson Tunnels? How did Swarm and Azure remain in the out of Universe bubble without a conversion plate? That's just the pre-credits questions!
Also why are Sontarans coming through multiple doors in Williamson's tunnels? There is no indication they know anything about them and they aren't coming out of just the Dec 5th 2021 door as the Fam retreat down the corridor to find that one
The Scene with Yaz and the Doctor and the Doctor I think was meant to mirror scenes with previous scenes b/n doctor x companion but I just felt nothing bc they don't have a relationship
Bel and Vinder, almost seperated for how ever long...like a year i think? finally reunited, one of them could have easily died but luckily they didn't, and you'd def think that they'd both be thrilled to see each other, one might say...emotional, but they just hug and that's it...oh. now imagine that exact scenario playing out in the episode "doomsday" in series 2, Jackie, who's husband died in a car accident, after so long is reunited with a parallel vesion of him, there's no reaction it's just a simple hug and that's it...imagine how disappointing that would've been, luckily that didn't happen, but the fact it happened here is, well...disappointing, now i will say i wasn't all that engaged with their story to begin with, but this could've easily been one of the dozens of stories they could actually follow through on, but i guess not. i just feel like there could've been more, ik there was stuff happening in that scene that there wasn't any moment for a reaction but it just felt anticlimactic after that build up between both Bel and Vinder. and that's something common that's been happening throughout chibnals run, there's almost no reaction to certain events, "earths population has been reduced to seven", "oh", and that's it. now, i'm happy that Russel T is coming back because at least i'm familiar with his skills as a writer, but i am also Worried, why would the BBC want him back? why not ask someone else? did they just not know anyone else to think of who could write for the show? was this RTD's decision? or is it just BBC panicking because of the decline in views? what ever the reason, we'll never really know.
I think it would have been better if the Flux had been a completely natural event, and the story had been focused on the Doctor et al having to find ways to minimise the effects it has while fending off the more militaristic races from taking advantage of the situation. It would have given more space for a handful of plotlines to be properly explored and would have given some of the characters more plot relevant stuff to do, as they could be helping hold the universe together while the Doctor bounces around trying to figure out how the Flux works while stepping in to help when things get beyond the abilities of the companions.
I am old enough that I remember when Stu refused to admit Allonsy was 10th Doctor's catchphrase, cause he didn't like the 10th Doctor that much... This is character development.
I want to say that Chibnall's not retconning The End of Time since it doesn't add up (it's established that the Doctor doesn't actually remember Tecteun, whereas you can clearly see recognition and emotion in 10's eyes when he sees the Woman and when he talks to Wilf about her)... ...but also, it's Chibnall, so.
Honestly with the marketing, I assumed that Flux was this massive time space fuck up that the Doctor had to fix across 6 episodes, and maybe some villain takes advantage of that. A 6 episode serial has to be one story. This felt like 10 stories shoved into 6 hours. I can at least give props for Chibnall for having a vision he got out there under abnormal circumstances from covid-19 and lockdowns, but why was it this messy?
Regarding the fob watch being able to rewrite DNA, and Jay your response to that it can just store memories. While true, what if it still DID rewrite her DNA? She used to be something else, the time lords used her for her abilities, then rewrote her DNA to become a lesser version of herself that actually COULD only regenerate 12 times as per Matt Smith's doctor stated?
Y’all clowning on Bel but honesty Bel and Vinder were the only characters I was consistently interested in and I felt had clear motivations and values. (Beyond just finding each other, both had a clear sense of morality and duty). In any other season they wouldn’t have stood out, but in this garbled hell scape they were the only characters I was invested in.
Not all the lupariare are ex elite secret agents for galactic controlling devision Jay, they could be wiped out by aggressive potatoes. Us not being shown a single civilian lupari is the problem
Honestly, my problem with that is that the Sontarans didn't fight them, he said they simply spaced all the lupari and now they're dead. I was so sure he was lying because that doesn't sound at all like a Sontaran plan, they love battle TOO MUCH to take the easy way out like that.
@@PlatinumAltaria Seriously the concept of a dog alien being linked to a human is *inspired*, and I think that it kind of sums up Chibnall really well; great ideas that end up getting sweeped aside because they aren’t handled to their full potential.
We had Chibby grinding his supple mystery box ass on our lap about what the Doctors forbidden memories were. Only to never reveal what it is. I'd be disappointed if we didn't know that the full monty would be thoroughly unsatisfying.
I can't believe that people STILL fall for mystery box "writing" at this point. If they had answers they'd be in the script, not dangled in front of your face like keys over a baby. Knives Out (great film, watch it NOW) shows that the detective solved the case within his first scene (if you know what to look for), because it actually knows where it's going.
When Jay is flipping through the episode, I smiled when a frame of the Doctor shows up with a really dumb expression on her face. I like it because, unlike usual freeze frames, the weird expression is completely normal and a choice on the part of the actor.
1:03:28 no they were invited by the sontarans, they were the only ones who came because the call was for them, there are other races still alive but these are the ones the sontarans find difficult enough to fight as to set them up for betrayal
There was no point to Azure at all. She has the same personality as Swarm and doesn't do anything different. You could take her out and the plot would be the same.
Honestly, I'd rather keep Azure than Swarm. At least Azure had that bit with the weird planet with the bloke from the Inbetweeners. What notable moments did Swarm have?
Don't Sontarans energise through the probic vent, hence they don't need to eat? So why did they even eat chocolate in the first place to get addicted to it? If they eat now, do they need to poop? Do they even have a-holes? This needs explaining!
The end of 'Flux' is an absolute disaster, it may even be worse than Timeless Children. This failed to pay off any of the arc in a satisfying way, Chibnall can't be trusted to handle a group of toddlers. Abysmal dialogue, stupid villains, convoluted and confusing nonsense, things just happened this season without any reason, just cause Chibby wanted it to happen.
In relation to older characters being written to praise the Thirteenth Doctor, that is exactly what happened in The Power of the Doctor (which I personally consider the best of Jodie's run, which I know isn't saying much), when they have the First fuckin' Doctor (the real first one, not Jo) say that she's one of the more determined ones, or something of that nature. I mean, come on.
To be faire... the doctor killed in this episode all the Sontarians, Daleks and Cybermen... But in episode 2, she was very angry against the man who killed some sontarians... Another thing: why the Ravengers needed the flux to destroy the universe? The flux couldn't destroy one Passager and they could destroy easily many Passagers... so they could destroy all universe easily, couldn't they?
The Sontarans were just going to use the Lupari shield to protect themselves from the flux and let the Daleks and Cybermen die, becuase it was established that the flux doesn't get through the Lupari shield (nevermind how that doesn't make sense, especially since the Division is known to employ Lupari). The Doctor and Co. were the ones who figured out that they could feed the flux a bunch of matter to stop it, so they took control of the shield and fed it and the Sontarans to the flux.
Mystery spot, Supernatural (season 3) does groundhog day but with death. There's an in universe reason for why the deaths are relevant and are the point, actually. The premise is this: A super-powerful person is torturing one of the main characters into accepting the impending death of his brother by repeatedly killing the brother in utterly ridiculous, random events over and over and over again. The loop resets when the brother dies. It's funny. Can be watched out of order. All you need to know is that the main characters are brothers and one of them has a death sentence hanging over his head.
I'm not sure how many specials we are going to get this year. But I'm guessing in each one the doctor will have to explore the memories inside the fob watch in order to save the day. Maybe Yaz and Dan will try argue it's too dangerous.
I mean, there was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation that used that concept. And Loonatik's Unleashed. And Supernatural. And Legends of Tomorrow. And the movie Happy Death Day. And the movie The Source Code. And the video game 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. It's a really common trope. Not necessarily a bad one, though. The episode could still be good even if it's using a trope that's been done a fair bit. Honestly, everything other than the fact that it's being made by the current team looks good about the upcoming special. Just the fact that this team makes is so consistently mediocre to terrible makes me think that it's unlikely to be good.
now I know this might upset some but.. I feel Chibnall could acually learn from watching how the Arrowverse does specials. because they might have their issues, but I swear it would dramatically improve the storytelling here because at least they know how to keep plot beats going!
Honestly, the biggest missed opportunity is not making this a six-episode serial where the Sontarans are the main focus. Get rid of the rest of the nonsense and just zero in on the Sontaran occupation of earth. They created the Flux and built ships that could defend against it; you could have a Doctor-lite episode about a Sontaran defector. I don't know, do SOMETHING with them instead of turning them into buffoons. And not every season has to be a universe-ending threat!
The storyline just feels like it’s going off the rails? Like, why is time a character? Why are there people who can thanos snap people out of existence? It feels like a weird superhero show instead of sci fi.
I don't know. The Whisper Men's undertaker outfits were pretty nifty. And they also didn't do anything in the story they appeared in. Weird how that's a pattern that keeps popping up.
@@regiman222 Yeah, that'd probably be the common denominator. It was under completely different writers and showrunners, so we can't blame either of them for both examples.
Its absurd nonsense like this ERA that really has me reaching for having to defend why storytelling is remotely necessary in the first place; because any flaw in it devolves into 'well nothing matters so...why does it need to?' And i insist its because its abusing the fundamental agreement between writer and viewer. By treating exposition like something your audience must follow but then disregarding it to the point of being unfollowable, you render engagement completely unneccesary. It punishes interest. And sooner or later, you can enjoy moments - anything will be enjoyed by someone - but you take advantage of peoples suspension of disbelief only to not reward them with anything. Its like straight up spiting your audience to put this level of indifference into the story. Im not just talking Flux, im talking how fundamentally lazy the writing has been since the start of this era. Honestly i keep feeling too harsh, like im supposed to soften it with some consideration, but i feel like the writing doesnt consider its audience at all, so i give no quarter. Actually IN FAIRNESS, I do like whitaker more and more, i like the vilains design, i even like dans jokes and i think yaz is really committing to the role. Its just ... the writing reminds me of writers strikes where everythings just either talking to pass time or cluttered with action, because no one actually sat down and ironed out what actually mattered.
@@matteosignor4256 I really do wish I had kinder things to say; it had a lot of potential and fun stuff, but its just not interested in character development or cause and effect and if it doesnt care ... why should we? I dont follow Sonic that much, so i dont know why that is, but I thought the sonic film was alright?
@@B-MC Yeah, I agree, can't wait for Russet to be back! I'm really curious at if he's going to rectify, recontextualize, or just ignore the stuff this era brought us. And yeah, the Sonic Film was alright, even though it wasn't really… Sonic-y. Whatever, can't wait for the Sequel :D
Swarm and Azure were literally at Division where the Flux was being controlled from. The place exists outside of time and so the people controlling the flux can undo stuff as well.
I think crashing into the ship only to be stopped by the force field is meant to be a throwback to the second episode. Like the Sontarans took on board that loss and built a counter to that strategy. This doesn’t really fix the episode but there it is.
Holy shit Jay, i was just watching the newest EFAP and highway code part with Stu came up and I was thinking to myself "Oh shii thats from Jay and who talk Dr.Stu" then I chuckled to myself because I realized my brain stopped working after listening to all of Denims Two-faced BS. but anyways, I'm kinda drunk and im just ranting now, but I thought i'd come to this video because i just wanted to say "Jay and Who talk Dr.Stu"
The idea for the new special is literally just that Tom cruise movie called edge of tommorow so chibnall will literally just be copying the main idea of a very popular movie and again making something unoriginal and will probably screw with the Canon of doctor who even more
Gonna be honest, timelooping is a fairly generic concept, so is a countdown to midnight, genuinely wouldn't at all be surprised if he just had the idea completely independently
Chris Chibnall has blatantly ripped off the story from the Mass Effect trilogy with his Flux/Swarm BS. In Mass Effect the Reapers (a hyper advanced race) destroy all species in the universe every 50,000 years then press the "reset button", taking only the useful characteristics from thriving cultures into the next cycle and so on and so on.
Stu, at best, adds nothing to these discussions and frequently distracts and detracts from the points Jay makes. Clearly Jay is fine with it because they keep doing the streams and fair enough, but personally find it really irritating.
Hahah yeah the happy ending with most of the universe destroyed was about as tone deaf as last Jedi, jolly happy reunions instead of a grim vibe after having almost their entire faction wiped out Although chibs is bad, he's not Rian Johnson last Jedi bad, I'll give him that They could have a competition of who's got more hollow characters though
Dan: "what's the point of being alive if its not to make others happy"
Also Dan: bullies karvanista after his whole species dies
What's the point of being alive if it's not to make others miserable?
@@starhound45 I haven't seen the vid yet, so I don't know if Jay and Stu brought this up, but can we just address that Swarm and Azure's motivation boils down the the Evil Dan "What's the point of being alive?" and "What's the point of being alive if not to make others die." meme lines?
@@parrot998 I mean? I guess? It's a bit too vague to really have a good grasp on it.
Ok but can we talk about how good the 12th doctor episode "World and enough time" is? Bill getting a whole ass new hole put in her and having the actual consequences of that was shocking and right out of left field, the use of actual science in the time difference from the black hole in a very interesting way, how the reason bill couldn't be saved in time being from the doctor's own hubris as he wasted time giving a lecture like the actual professor he was, the entire story of the master and bill (I didn't actually see the twist coming) the RETURN OF THE MONDASIAN CYBERMEN in such a creepy and amazing way. It feels like a big love letter to the original concept of the cybermen in an amazing way. I love that episode.
There have been some great finales over the years, and WEaT is definitely one of the best. Just the way the Doctor seems overwhelmed and almost elderly because of the stress of the situation is great. I do wish they'd kept the bittersweet ending and not used magic at the end, but still.
@@PlatinumAltaria I liked how they worked the pilot in honestly, bill deserved a happy ending after all she went through. But, I do feel like it wasn't set up well enough, maybe the pilot should've showed up a bit more throughout the series?
AND ANOTHER THING!
This was an AMAZING swan song to Steven Moffat's and Peter's version of the show.
The only problems with World Enough and Time are that all the reveals were spoiled months before, and that The Doctor Falls wasn't very good. So the only problems aren't anything to do with World Enough and Time at all!
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer The Doctor Falls is one of the best episodes ever made.
It just occurred to me that they could have their cake and eat it kind of with the timeless child by having the portal it came from just lead back to gallifrey on the future, and they were still just a random time lord
I love how the whole time the Flux "destroyed the universe" the writers forgot that means no Sun in Earth's sky and kept it day time.
I'm assuming the sun survived too. The real issue is the Lupari ships completely covering the Earth.
@@thatoneguy4452 doesn’t Tecteun or Swarm say that Earth is where the flux is converging to? And the flux was right outside of Earth’s shield so that would imply the rest of our solar system was gone, including the sun and moon.
@@MikaNeow Maybe. Perhaps they meant that they'd destroy the solar system last.
Maybe the flux is a picky eater
@@thatoneguy4452 but the flux was washing over earth in the first or second episode and only the Lupari shield saved the planet.
So what's the theory here, that the flux maneuvered around all the other planets and the sun?
"The Universe? But I thought you died!"
"News about my death were greately exaggerated."
"Did you die?"
Universe: "Sadly, yes... BUT I LIVED!"
Call the ambulance... but not for me.
That first line was referenced in Legend of the Sea Devils!
the flux being stopped by the ships reminded me of the destroying the time lord memory matrix by uploading time lord memories into it - like it's designed to destroy everything in the universe by people who know about the lupari because they employ lupari, how is lupari technology enough to just completely stop it?
That's an excellent point re the Matrix Overload - another trope for Jay's next parody.
The Lupari having the technology to block the Flux is one contrivance. The fact the race that have it are duty bound to protect Earth is a second. That their "leader" is ALSO the last Division Operative that is supposedly left in the Universe is a third. That they are also the character the Doctor was chasing is connected to the third I suppose, but a fourth is that this character used to be the Doctor's companion.....
@@leipherd8118 If I had to headcanon an explanation, the flux is designed to be stoppable by the Lupari because they're employed by the Division and need something to protect Earth, Earth basically being the one place the doctor is guaranteed to return to.
Another contrivance is that despite working for the division and having the technology to stop the flux, the entire Lupari species was present in the last bit of the universe to be genocided by potatomen, you'd think the division would keep some at home for safe keeping.
@@whiskeyhound and they had just enough ships to completely form a shield, which was not their initial plan, but the Doctors (anyone work out how big each ship would have to be to form an unbroken shield? Or was Chibnall just watching GOTG?).
When just one defects/malfunctions? they have to recall a contrived extra ship on which is contrived to be Bel. So just on this single plot point of the Lupari we are closing in on double figure contrvances
@@leipherd8118 I almost feel sorry for the people who want to defend this show and have to constantly come up with explanations for what's being shown to them and why it's happening.
Especially since my headcanon which was formed from nothing more than watching a few episode reviews and is contrived as hell still seems to make more sense than the actual show.
My problem is more that throwing three fleets at it is enough to stop it. I mean that's way less than the mass of a planet. Also you'd think that Tektedumb knew how much matter was in the universe and made enough anti matter to annihilate it...
This episode makes Trial of a Time Lord Part 14 look well thought out and logical.
As a fellow member of the dyspraxic community Jay how dare you terrify us with the existence of bicycles. It is all of our greatest fear: to be trapped in a corner by them
At night, the bicycles come for me. I can still hear the bells ringing
@@Stubagful It's fine, they can't climb ladders, yet...
@@whiskeyhound Nor can they climb dyspraxia
my last 3 brain cells tried so hard to understand this finale and they still got absolutely fried. i love how that in the end the main villains just got thanosed in the last 5 minutes and di was the saviour that came up with the idea to save the universe. (also did Chibnall forget to put in a scene where they restore the universe again cause im pretty sure that half the universe was destroyed?) Anyways cant wait for the new years special, its gonna be a blast!
I mean, if you just ignore the 27 plotlines that weren't relevant, the universe being destroyed with no wrap up.. it can work..? Wait..
Tecteun being behind it all..to just ramble exposition and disintegrate, no that didn't go anywhere
But hey, the real villains! ..also just get killed unceremoniously
Damn, hm.. at least vinder and her ended up being the doctors parents and relevant to the story..no wait.
Oh, & somehow 13 managed to outdo the bad writing and moral assassination of spiders and siccing Nazis on the master by genociding 3 races hahah. Which don't hlme wrong, could work in a better story, I totally side with metacrisis doctor in his case
Seriously what a dumpster fire cluster fuck hahaha
@@KaladinVegapunk Vinder and Belle being the doctor’s parents wouldn’t have been good storytelling nor would it have made them relevant to the story. I really don’t understand why people think this.
@@ExhaustedWombat No, it would be terrible. But at least it would show Chibnall had at least one idea for why they were in this at all.
The woman in end of time was implied to be his mom
But RTJ and another writer were saying it was meant to be able to be seen as any time lady ally, Romana, his granddaughter or mum
Doctor: "The only way to bring back the universe is to reset time to before I met you!"
Yaz: "But Doctor, that means I'll lose all memories of our well-established and very existent relationship!"
Doctor: "I'm sorry Yaz, it's the only way!"
Character we've never seen before: runs in and pushes the button so 13 doesn't have to
Then 13 wakes up in a hospital having fallen through the roof of a train, and regenerates into Jo Martin. That's the only way this era can be redeemed.
@saber 1616 Nothing a rewrite can't fix, it's not like anyone actually cares about this era.
@this city is really a city Except for when they regenerate and immediately start ragging on the gender they previously were...
I'd love to be a kid watching that episode, seeing the chocolate bribe scene and thinking "oh damn, that's good, that's a good deal"
One thing I am grateful for Flux doing is teaching me how to do a Liverpool and Yorkshire accent separately rather than "generic North England"
I'm so glad you used that as the Thumbnail in the end Jay
BBC: Why hire a team of writers when we can just broadcast a random word generator for 6 hours?
Okay, theres a certain doctor who toy/game called doctor who story cubes, you can roll them and they give you a set of images that you can make a story out of
This is what chibnall used to write
28:55 Yeah, my brain didn't process we had left the "previously" section until halfway into the episode.
"The Flux can't eat infinite matter." Well, that sounds completely impossible, so it checks out! Brilliant writing.
How did Kate Stewart end up with the TARDIS in the Williamson Tunnels?
How did Swarm and Azure remain in the out of Universe bubble without a conversion plate?
That's just the pre-credits questions!
Also why are Sontarans coming through multiple doors in Williamson's tunnels? There is no indication they know anything about them and they aren't coming out of just the Dec 5th 2021 door as the Fam retreat down the corridor to find that one
The Scene with Yaz and the Doctor and the Doctor I think was meant to mirror scenes with previous scenes b/n doctor x companion but I just felt nothing bc they don't have a relationship
Bel and Vinder, almost seperated for how ever long...like a year i think? finally reunited, one of them could have easily died but luckily they didn't, and you'd def think that they'd both be thrilled to see each other, one might say...emotional, but they just hug and that's it...oh.
now imagine that exact scenario playing out in the episode "doomsday" in series 2, Jackie, who's husband died in a car accident, after so long is reunited with a parallel vesion of him, there's no reaction it's just a simple hug and that's it...imagine how disappointing that would've been, luckily that didn't happen, but the fact it happened here is, well...disappointing, now i will say i wasn't all that engaged with their story to begin with, but this could've easily been one of the dozens of stories they could actually follow through on, but i guess not.
i just feel like there could've been more, ik there was stuff happening in that scene that there wasn't any moment for a reaction but it just felt anticlimactic after that build up between both Bel and Vinder.
and that's something common that's been happening throughout chibnals run, there's almost no reaction to certain events, "earths population has been reduced to seven", "oh", and that's it.
now, i'm happy that Russel T is coming back because at least i'm familiar with his skills as a writer, but i am also Worried, why would the BBC want him back? why not ask someone else? did they just not know anyone else to think of who could write for the show? was this RTD's decision? or is it just BBC panicking because of the decline in views? what ever the reason, we'll never really know.
It reeks of desperation
I think it would have been better if the Flux had been a completely natural event, and the story had been focused on the Doctor et al having to find ways to minimise the effects it has while fending off the more militaristic races from taking advantage of the situation. It would have given more space for a handful of plotlines to be properly explored and would have given some of the characters more plot relevant stuff to do, as they could be helping hold the universe together while the Doctor bounces around trying to figure out how the Flux works while stepping in to help when things get beyond the abilities of the companions.
I am old enough that I remember when Stu refused to admit Allonsy was 10th Doctor's catchphrase, cause he didn't like the 10th Doctor that much... This is character development.
I want to say that Chibnall's not retconning The End of Time since it doesn't add up (it's established that the Doctor doesn't actually remember Tecteun, whereas you can clearly see recognition and emotion in 10's eyes when he sees the Woman and when he talks to Wilf about her)...
...but also, it's Chibnall, so.
Honestly with the marketing, I assumed that Flux was this massive time space fuck up that the Doctor had to fix across 6 episodes, and maybe some villain takes advantage of that. A 6 episode serial has to be one story. This felt like 10 stories shoved into 6 hours. I can at least give props for Chibnall for having a vision he got out there under abnormal circumstances from covid-19 and lockdowns, but why was it this messy?
16:30 okay here me out, a chemistry teacher gets cancer, and cant pay for it, but he meets a sontaran deadbeat and they start cooking meth together…
The chocolate sontaron is the only time I’ve ever laughed at a Chibnal joke: I recognise it was dumb, but it was so inane that I loved it.
To me it was just insulting.
Regarding the fob watch being able to rewrite DNA, and Jay your response to that it can just store memories. While true, what if it still DID rewrite her DNA? She used to be something else, the time lords used her for her abilities, then rewrote her DNA to become a lesser version of herself that actually COULD only regenerate 12 times as per Matt Smith's doctor stated?
...what the fuck even are the ravagers?
Like where did they come from? are they a species? are there more of them?
Y’all clowning on Bel but honesty Bel and Vinder were the only characters I was consistently interested in and I felt had clear motivations and values. (Beyond just finding each other, both had a clear sense of morality and duty). In any other season they wouldn’t have stood out, but in this garbled hell scape they were the only characters I was invested in.
Not all the lupariare are ex elite secret agents for galactic controlling devision Jay, they could be wiped out by aggressive potatoes. Us not being shown a single civilian lupari is the problem
Honestly, my problem with that is that the Sontarans didn't fight them, he said they simply spaced all the lupari and now they're dead. I was so sure he was lying because that doesn't sound at all like a Sontaran plan, they love battle TOO MUCH to take the easy way out like that.
Finally an original Chibnall species we want to see and they are eradicated off-screen.
@@PlatinumAltaria Seriously the concept of a dog alien being linked to a human is *inspired*, and I think that it kind of sums up Chibnall really well; great ideas that end up getting sweeped aside because they aren’t handled to their full potential.
We had Chibby grinding his supple mystery box ass on our lap about what the Doctors forbidden memories were. Only to never reveal what it is. I'd be disappointed if we didn't know that the full monty would be thoroughly unsatisfying.
I can't believe that people STILL fall for mystery box "writing" at this point. If they had answers they'd be in the script, not dangled in front of your face like keys over a baby.
Knives Out (great film, watch it NOW) shows that the detective solved the case within his first scene (if you know what to look for), because it actually knows where it's going.
I am tired of the mystery box style of writing. It's ruined so many films and tv shows.
Stuart should write his story of a Sontaran who comes to Earth to learn how to make Meth. It could be a two-parter called "Breaking Sontaran."
When Jay is flipping through the episode, I smiled when a frame of the Doctor shows up with a really dumb expression on her face.
I like it because, unlike usual freeze frames, the weird expression is completely normal and a choice on the part of the actor.
11:40 ish?
1:10:30 in McCoy's 1st episode he says you'll get used to me and in Colin's he says "I'm the doctor now"
1:03:28 no they were invited by the sontarans, they were the only ones who came because the call was for them, there are other races still alive but these are the ones the sontarans find difficult enough to fight as to set them up for betrayal
Came here to watch the super-secret archive ending.
Coming soon at Big Finish: the Methhead Sontaran..
Hail to the Vanquishers of Flux. No not the episode, Jay and Stu
There was no point to Azure at all. She has the same personality as Swarm and doesn't do anything different. You could take her out and the plot would be the same.
Slightly better, because you would have been able to cut out the arctic stuff
Honestly, I'd rather keep Azure than Swarm. At least Azure had that bit with the weird planet with the bloke from the Inbetweeners. What notable moments did Swarm have?
@@TheSmart-CasualGamer just give em to swarm
Don't Sontarans energise through the probic vent, hence they don't need to eat? So why did they even eat chocolate in the first place to get addicted to it? If they eat now, do they need to poop? Do they even have a-holes? This needs explaining!
Apparently during the filming of the season the BBC cut it from 7 episodes to 6, which is responsible for _some_ of the issues present.
Even if that’s true, it’s still poorly written.
@@adamburke4738 same problem as Twice Upon a Time. not a great story to begin with, but getting a half hour edited out surely didn’t help
@@foconut see, I don’t get why you say that? Is it because there was no evil plan?
No it clearly wasn't, this thing didn't see a second draft and it shows. Adding an extra episode would just stretch the badness out.
tbf with the Sontaran ships in episode 2, they were under construction, so it's reasonable for them to not have active shields
"any closing thoughts" 30 minute runtime left over, yeah this is a jay stream all right
Stu brings out the worst in them.
11:05 That's S1E19 of Gravity Falls.
The end of 'Flux' is an absolute disaster, it may even be worse than Timeless Children. This failed to pay off any of the arc in a satisfying way, Chibnall can't be trusted to handle a group of toddlers. Abysmal dialogue, stupid villains, convoluted and confusing nonsense, things just happened this season without any reason, just cause Chibby wanted it to happen.
I would REALLY avoid giving Chibbers any toddlers...
I understood your point, but...
Just...no.😒👎😳
@@RREvilMonk
Haha my point is that after he mishandled this season I wouldn't trust him to look after a bunch of toddlers
@@meris8486 They’d be better at writing too.
In relation to older characters being written to praise the Thirteenth Doctor, that is exactly what happened in The Power of the Doctor (which I personally consider the best of Jodie's run, which I know isn't saying much), when they have the First fuckin' Doctor (the real first one, not Jo) say that she's one of the more determined ones, or something of that nature. I mean, come on.
To be faire... the doctor killed in this episode all the Sontarians, Daleks and Cybermen... But in episode 2, she was very angry against the man who killed some sontarians...
Another thing: why the Ravengers needed the flux to destroy the universe? The flux couldn't destroy one Passager and they could destroy easily many Passagers... so they could destroy all universe easily, couldn't they?
I wish someone would rewrite these seasons to make sense.
Too much stuff was put in this season so pretty much everything was underdeveloped.
The Sontarans were just going to use the Lupari shield to protect themselves from the flux and let the Daleks and Cybermen die, becuase it was established that the flux doesn't get through the Lupari shield (nevermind how that doesn't make sense, especially since the Division is known to employ Lupari). The Doctor and Co. were the ones who figured out that they could feed the flux a bunch of matter to stop it, so they took control of the shield and fed it and the Sontarans to the flux.
Mystery spot, Supernatural (season 3) does groundhog day but with death. There's an in universe reason for why the deaths are relevant and are the point, actually. The premise is this: A super-powerful person is torturing one of the main characters into accepting the impending death of his brother by repeatedly killing the brother in utterly ridiculous, random events over and over and over again. The loop resets when the brother dies. It's funny. Can be watched out of order. All you need to know is that the main characters are brothers and one of them has a death sentence hanging over his head.
I'm not sure how many specials we are going to get this year. But I'm guessing in each one the doctor will have to explore the memories inside the fob watch in order to save the day. Maybe Yaz and Dan will try argue it's too dangerous.
You are putting way too much faith in chibnall to NOT be a total arse
So, the New Year special is basically going to be a rehash of the film "Live, Die, Repeat: Edge of Tomorrow"?
It's a general plot device, it's been used many times throughout TV and film. It's even been used before in doctor who with heaven sent.
I mean, there was an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation that used that concept. And Loonatik's Unleashed. And Supernatural. And Legends of Tomorrow. And the movie Happy Death Day. And the movie The Source Code. And the video game 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim. It's a really common trope. Not necessarily a bad one, though. The episode could still be good even if it's using a trope that's been done a fair bit.
Honestly, everything other than the fact that it's being made by the current team looks good about the upcoming special. Just the fact that this team makes is so consistently mediocre to terrible makes me think that it's unlikely to be good.
Looking back on Flux I was terrified that the house was a sign they were going to do Lungbarrow
Bullet… dodged?
The universe returned? Did they actually say that in the episode? I thought it was still mostly destroyed.
They do not address ANYTHING about the fact that 99% of the universe has been destroyed.
now I know this might upset some but.. I feel Chibnall could acually learn from watching how the Arrowverse does specials. because they might have their issues, but I swear it would dramatically improve the storytelling here because at least they know how to keep plot beats going!
Listening to this, I just keep hearing Babymetal’s “Gimme Chocolate!”
😁😂🤣
🤘🔥🦊🔥🤘
Is there a reason Azure was in this season at all? Like what did she do?
Honestly, the biggest missed opportunity is not making this a six-episode serial where the Sontarans are the main focus. Get rid of the rest of the nonsense and just zero in on the Sontaran occupation of earth. They created the Flux and built ships that could defend against it; you could have a Doctor-lite episode about a Sontaran defector. I don't know, do SOMETHING with them instead of turning them into buffoons. And not every season has to be a universe-ending threat!
Sontarans perverting the course of human history!
Stu should make a reading random things Livestream
For the record, I have dyspraxia and I struggle with ladders
48:40 sorry but idk how you guys don't understand the phrase "origin point". That clearly means where it begins.
The storyline just feels like it’s going off the rails? Like, why is time a character? Why are there people who can thanos snap people out of existence? It feels like a weird superhero show instead of sci fi.
I keep saying this, but while they don't actually do much, Swarm and Azure might be the best dressed Doctor Who monsters I've ever seen.
They're just camp clones of Tzim-Sha...
@@PlatinumAltaria that doesn't disprove my point, but also true.
I don't know. The Whisper Men's undertaker outfits were pretty nifty. And they also didn't do anything in the story they appeared in. Weird how that's a pattern that keeps popping up.
@@kylejones8289 Style over substance maybe?
@@regiman222 Yeah, that'd probably be the common denominator. It was under completely different writers and showrunners, so we can't blame either of them for both examples.
"There's gotta be a reason for [Bel and Vinder's story and Bel's baby]."
Welp, that aged well.
Honestly it not leading to anything is probably for the best
Its absurd nonsense like this ERA that really has me reaching for having to defend why storytelling is remotely necessary in the first place; because any flaw in it devolves into 'well nothing matters so...why does it need to?'
And i insist its because its abusing the fundamental agreement between writer and viewer. By treating exposition like something your audience must follow but then disregarding it to the point of being unfollowable, you render engagement completely unneccesary. It punishes interest. And sooner or later, you can enjoy moments - anything will be enjoyed by someone - but you take advantage of peoples suspension of disbelief only to not reward them with anything. Its like straight up spiting your audience to put this level of indifference into the story. Im not just talking Flux, im talking how fundamentally lazy the writing has been since the start of this era. Honestly i keep feeling too harsh, like im supposed to soften it with some consideration, but i feel like the writing doesnt consider its audience at all, so i give no quarter.
Actually IN FAIRNESS, I do like whitaker more and more, i like the vilains design, i even like dans jokes and i think yaz is really committing to the role. Its just ... the writing reminds me of writers strikes where everythings just either talking to pass time or cluttered with action, because no one actually sat down and ironed out what actually mattered.
Why does it seem like the Sonic and doctor who community became so similar during this era?
@@matteosignor4256 in what sense?
@@B-MC The comment you made is very similar to what sonic fans say kinda frequently XD
@@matteosignor4256 I really do wish I had kinder things to say; it had a lot of potential and fun stuff, but its just not interested in character development or cause and effect and if it doesnt care ... why should we?
I dont follow Sonic that much, so i dont know why that is, but I thought the sonic film was alright?
@@B-MC Yeah, I agree, can't wait for Russet to be back! I'm really curious at if he's going to rectify, recontextualize, or just ignore the stuff this era brought us.
And yeah, the Sonic Film was alright, even though it wasn't really… Sonic-y. Whatever, can't wait for the Sequel :D
I laughed for an embarasingly long time at the weird as fuck rehab joke
Jay can you do videos on the adventure time distant lands specials?
Is it a coincidence that Swarm and Azure look like the Crispy Masters if they were on Drag Race.
Jay before you do another stream, please have a full night's sleep
My girlfriend sat me down to watch this series, and now we both have brain damage.
I still can't believe Hole Man isn't the Rani...
This is Therapy
I understood what occurred, i just don't know why
Swarm and Azure were literally at Division where the Flux was being controlled from. The place exists outside of time and so the people controlling the flux can undo stuff as well.
I think crashing into the ship only to be stopped by the force field is meant to be a throwback to the second episode. Like the Sontarans took on board that loss and built a counter to that strategy.
This doesn’t really fix the episode but there it is.
Holy shit Jay, i was just watching the newest EFAP and highway code part with Stu came up and I was thinking to myself "Oh shii thats from Jay and who talk Dr.Stu" then I chuckled to myself because I realized my brain stopped working after listening to all of Denims Two-faced BS. but anyways, I'm kinda drunk and im just ranting now, but I thought i'd come to this video because i just wanted to say "Jay and Who talk Dr.Stu"
the chocolate from the corner shop raids was actually to weaken the lopari(however you spell it) since chocolate is toxic to dogs
Some say "Flux" is Chibby's best Doctor Who work. I say... I'd take one, boring, PSA ep like "Rosa" over this clusterf**k of pure failure.
How many of us ever really get pass the sex monster?
Fun fact: This is now the lowest-rated episode of Nu-Who, probably cause it pissed off Chibbers stans as well as haters.
Should’ve been the rani and omega
Omg this episode, and season has been such a mess.
The idea for the new special is literally just that Tom cruise movie called edge of tommorow so chibnall will literally just be copying the main idea of a very popular movie and again making something unoriginal and will probably screw with the Canon of doctor who even more
Gonna be honest, timelooping is a fairly generic concept, so is a countdown to midnight, genuinely wouldn't at all be surprised if he just had the idea completely independently
someone should really tell stu that repeatedly saying covid on stream/vid can get the video struck.
Pretty sure that's not still a thing, seeing how I didn't get any popup for "medical advice" appearing under the video.
Chris Chibnall has blatantly ripped off the story from the Mass Effect trilogy with his Flux/Swarm BS. In Mass Effect the Reapers (a hyper advanced race) destroy all species in the universe every 50,000 years then press the "reset button", taking only the useful characteristics from thriving cultures into the next cycle and so on and so on.
This finale was a joke
i enjoyed basically every episode, but recognise that it was mostly very bad. i think i just enjoy doctor who too much
Stu, at best, adds nothing to these discussions and frequently distracts and detracts from the points Jay makes. Clearly Jay is fine with it because they keep doing the streams and fair enough, but personally find it really irritating.
Hahah yeah the happy ending with most of the universe destroyed was about as tone deaf as last Jedi, jolly happy reunions instead of a grim vibe after having almost their entire faction wiped out
Although chibs is bad, he's not Rian Johnson last Jedi bad, I'll give him that
They could have a competition of who's got more hollow characters though
Last Jedi good.
@Fancy hat I think it has better bones than A New Hope but don't tell anyone I said that.