What really bothered me is how little Dan and Yaz cared about Jericho’s death. They spent 3 YEARS just the 3 of them, and I don’t believe either shed a tear when he dies
Yaz didn't cry, but she did seem pretty depressed about it. On the other hand, both companions can be a bit mopey so I can see why people would have issues noticing XD
It's quite telling that the BBC's own Flux "Story Breakdown" video only mentions four characters - i.e., only four characters were central to the main storyline of the season (and even then, three would have been enough; there was no meaningful difference between Swarm and Azure).
But is it really such a big cast, considering that Flux was a near 6 hour drama? I honestly connected with all the characters (both villains and heroes) and I felt invested in each individual story arc. I think criticising the size of the cast doesn't address the major issue: that a large part of the DW fandom simply doesn't enjoy the current style of storytelling of the Chibnall era.
@@zaphod2073 A lot of the characters were indeed interesting, but that makes it even worse imo because literally none of them except Jericho got a satisfying conclusion.
I agree that shortening the season didn't do anyone any favours, but it doesn't change one major fact. None of the characters that Chibnall introduced made any sense or did contribute anything towards solving the overall mystery. Not Dan, not Diane, not Vinder, Bel or the Baby. Not the Professor, not the Serpent and ceretainly not Swarm and Azure. Heck, even Tecteun was a complete waste. The only character that had some sort of insight or knowledge was actually Doggo, because he knew the Doctor before. I am not even going into all the other logical mistakes, because you can't explain the Flux and the questions surrounding it with Covid. Chibnall may have had a great story on his mind, but he sure as hell did not know how to deliver it. Take away the great special effects and the fast pacing, what is there left? Well? Not a lot. And none of that would have changed with more episodes, because everything or everyone has been dealt with. The Doc is off to a new adventure as if nothing happened. So, yes. I do think it that simple. Chibnall is a bad storyteller. At least when it comes to Doctor Who.
I'd argue that even outside of Doctor Who Chibnall's track record isn't very good. "Torchwood" was all over the place in its first two seasons and "Broadchurch" went completely off the rails after its first season (that gets so much weaker on a rewatch). Concerning "Born and Bred" I've only ever seen the video that Stubagful made on it, but it doesn't appear as if that show was written with a gold pen either.
Hard to say there are even great special effects and fast pacing to 'take away'. The pacing is choppy almost the whole way through, being fast isn't really a good thing in that case. And the effects are more often than not pretty terrible... the Daleks, those blue time-swarm things, every hologram. So that doesn't really help, but taking those out of the picture anyway just to focus on what Chibnall did personally... I think it's fair to say Chibnall bad. Is it reductive? Yes, but only in the sense that saying it in two words is obviously going to simplify it. You can bet your ass 99% of people who dislike this era would have far more issues to explain in-depth if given the chance to really get into it. EDIT: Can also point to Jay Exci's 'The Fall of Doctor Who' for a good example of when someone does go far more indepth than "Chibnall bad", like, the criticism is 'that's not really an argument' and then they make the argument and immediately people are up in arms like WOAH WOAH, get this argument outta here! MEAN!
Absolutely correct, yeah. Also Kate did absolutely nothing. Arguably, Claire could've been dropped too. If Chibnall needed an extra hour to tell the full story, dropping all of these pointless characters wouldn've probably freed up an hour to fit everything in.
As much as I adore Dan, it would have made more sense for Claire to be introduced as the new companion and then have the mystery of the Angel being inside her built until Episode 4 when the Angel is revealed. Oh and the Williamson Tunnels concept is honestly a really cool idea, its a shame that didn't get a full episode- that way Williamson could be introduced within his own episode rather than showing up at random points during the series and maybe he could walk through to the present day and spend some point with Kate, which could have made her presence feel a bit more necessary.
I agree. I love that there are so many unanswered historical mysteries and oddities out there. I love history and a love mysteries. Like so many of them I feel would be perfect for a Doctor Who episode. like the Tesla episode how nobody had any explanation for the mysterious lightning and stuff. Unanswered historical mysteries are ripe for creativity and for shows like Doctor Who to put their own spin on. To this day nobody knows why Williamson built all those tunnels so it could have been for literally anything. A mystery like that is perfect for exploration in a Doctor Who episode.
That's a really clever idea. I think maybe the professor and Claire as companions within the season then dropping hints that she's got the angel inside her. That would have made it work a lot better. Edit: I just enjoyed the professor, so it would have been fun to have him along too.
I really hate the direction the series has gone and that’s because what I always liked was simply, mysterious old kindly alien professor type traveling around time and space in a stolen craft stumbling into problems and solving them. These huge epic universe shattering events I’m just done with.
That and they keep making The Doctor more and more special and it just doesn't work. Every episode just seems to resolve with "I'm the Doctor, I'm special" instead of actual cleverness or work. The Doctor just becomes a deus ex machina.
Hey, just offering some additional insight into what we know about the production. So when you brought up the 8-11 episode count, we need to remember that it wasn't until the latter-part of filming the production blocks that the centenary-regeneration/special was commissioned by the BBC. Chibnall was referring to the difference between the S11 and S12 11-episode filming blocks (10 seasoned episodes and 1 special) to go now to 6-episodes for the season and two specials. So I don't think that numbered episode count (which was established before filming) is the issue. Now, we know that the two filming blocks are split by their directors. 1,2 and 4 going to Jamie Magnus Stone then 3, 5 and 6 going to Azhur Saleem. For me, the big issues and when the serialised story starts to fall apart is Episode 5 and 6 when we get UNIT, Tecteun, the Grand Serpent returning etc. We also know that the Bel/Vinder scenes in Ep 4 were doing by a 2nd UNIT team at the same time as the 2nd block (confirmed by crew on Twitter). Also, 6-episode dramas are the standard at this point at the BBC. 'Doctor Who' has actually been the very rare exception over the past few years. I'd be very surprised if the studio thought they'd be getting more than 6 episodes once they knew the episode-count would be reduced. With this in mind, I honestly think that "what happened" (and this might sound pessimistic on my part) is that Chibnall just got way too ambitious and threw way too many plot elements into the episode meaning everything gets muddled. You can see this happen throughout his run, especially Series 12 and it's not exclusive to Flux. The main thing that made Flux different as an audience was that it wasn't until the end when it started to fall apart because the story seemed to be heading to these conclusions...that then never happened. Maybe there were some production issues and some contracts and elements were put into motion really early on that they couldn't back out of and had to include (maybe they didn't want to cast Craig Parkinson and then remove his character once they realised it wasn't going to pay off, or maybe they had spent money on UNIT sets and couldn't back out). You brought up the "Taking me back to Atropos in the past" example from 'Once, Upon Time'. But this is something that's been present throughout the Chibnall era. Unless there's been an issue throughout his entire run, I think that form of exposition is standard for this team. For me, I think the "what happened" is on the creative side. Chibnall gave himself a million plates to spin and then dropped most of them by the end. It was self-defeating.
lol chibs even managed to rub you the wrong way. I saw you breaking down with every episode of the chibs era. Even you can't defend this crap any longer. You were the last fan to keep hope alive and chibs broke you. Hope we can get the old mr tardis back now that RTD's back.
My biggest issue with Flux overall was that I felt it had so much potential. I looked forward to each new episode, and enjoyed the first few episodes... But the ending felt so unsatisfying... Which in serialised over episodic storytelling really hurts the replayability of the show. I can watch Series 2 over and over while skipping the episodes I don't like, but with Flux being one story, a landing that doesn't work makes it difficult to rewatch episodes that just serve to build up to it, with the exception of the Sontaran one that could reasonably be watched in isolation.
Agreed, its the same problem broudchurch has, the final EP of series 1 is a massive stab in the back to the audience, making the first 7 decent episodes feel pointless to rewatch. I also think you'll struggle with war of the sontariens, there's a fair bit of flux stuff wedged in and knowing that the sontariens will return a couple EPs later all makes it seem irrelevant as a standalone piece
@@LewysC I meant Series 2, the first David Tennant series haha. I picked it for this example because it's a series with some of my favourite and least favourite episodes in pretty equal measure.
@@benjamindavis4974 I'm late to the party but basically: Each episode focuses on a person which might have killed the child, but (seemingly) didn't. Right before the last episode, a few possibilities are there: Maybe there were clues, which void the alibi of one of the suspects, but hidden in other episodes? Maybe they all played a part (Murder on the orient express style)? What about David Tenants character, he seems a bit shady and mysterious? But no: The murderer, who is just a random character with barely a line at all so far -basically an extra-, just wanders into the police station and confesses. As a viewer, you never had a chance to figure it out. Not in a million years. And nothing that happened in all those episodes before matters at all or ties into any of the other episodes. You can literally watch the first ten minutes of the first episode and then the last and miss absolutely nothing of the crime or meaningful parts of its solving. If there would have been writing that's actually good, you would want to rewatch the series in it's entirety and would actually catch a lot of clues you would have missed during your first watch.
It’s interesting hearing your point about whether the episode count was cut down. I assumed the 8 episodes was just the 6-episode series and 2 specials (new year and Easter). It was announced months later, that they’d been asked to do another special on top of that (the centenary). So a 6 episode series and 3 specials. From that perspective, I’m not sure that necessarily suggests the episode count was cut down. But it is interesting that Chris said that they MAY end up with 8, rather than the usual 11. That suggests he wasn’t completely sure how many episodes they would get in the end. We may never really know what actually happened behind the scenes.
@@DBProds96Not exactly. When it was 10-episodes, it wasn’t going to be Flux, or at least, it wasn’t going to be one long story. The whole ‘one-story’ idea only happened when COVID forced them to change their plans, according to Chris Chibnall. So it was cut down, but the specific story we were given wasn’t the original plan. My question is more about how long Flux was supposed to be after they’d decided to do it as one story.
Honestly, one of the things that disappointed me most, was the utter lack of attempt to build up the relationships of the TARDIS crew. After the years of shoddy character building, especially concerning Yaz and Ryan, I really hoped this season would be kind of a refocusing of character given Yaz was the only remaining companion left. I was pleasantly surprised before with Clara, who was a mystery box and not a character in season 7 and grew a personality after a reshuffling of the cast. But nope, I don't know if it was the Covid restrictions or just bad writing, probably both, but we got minimal character development on Yaz's part. Most importantly, they brought in a new companion without giving his relationship with the Doctor... Anything? The actors seem like they're having a blast together, but there's absolutely nothing in the text to characterize Dan and the Doctor's relationship. The TARDIS crew spend more than half the series apart, often separated completely by narrative shortcuts. Beyond Covid restrictions, which were known to some degree during the writing, not developing Yaz's character and bringing in a new companion who seemingly has somewhat of a character outline but refusing to connect him emotionally to the doctor is disappointing.
I'm pretty sure the 8 episodes Chibnall was talking about was for the six episodes of season 13 and the two specials that had been greenlit. The centenary special was added at a later date. When all is said and done though the production team have to live and die by what is on screen and Doctor Who Flux is a complete mess. Even if some of the fanbase are willing to overlook its shortcomings the general public must have watched it and had all their worst fears about the poor state of Doctor Who confirmed.
Yes, that is it - 6 episode season with two specials, then the centenary episode added later. Originally it was going to be 11 episodes total - 8 for the season and 3 specials, with no mention of a centenary special at that time. Losing two episodes is a big loss but filming was still underway so things can be rewritten to work. The first two specials wouldn't have been shot yet (not while the main series was filming), so they could have taken one special and added it to the main season. That could have helped a lot and given the plot (what little there was) more time. Excising a lot of the pointless stuff would have helped too, but then Chibnall does love to pointlessly draw things out.
While it is fair, to point out production issues, it is no excuse for bad execution. For a counter example consider Babylon 5 season 4: During the season JMS (the showrunner) was told mid production there would not be a 5th season. So he had to cut the remaining schedule planned by 4 episodes, to move in 3 episodes from the planned 5th season to finish up one major story arc. Originially S4E18 "Intersections in Real Time" would have been the season finale. He had to jugle pushing that one ahead without making everything seem rushed; produce a new series finale (which would have aired as the final episode) _and_ when all of a sudden the 5th season was greenlit by another network _produce_ a new S4 finale and keep the originally shot finale on the shelf for the true show finale at the end of season 5 (which is the reason on actress is in the show finale, beside leaving the show in Season 5) Thats what a _competent_ showrunner is able to do. Oh and btw, JMS has written like 90 out of the 110 episodes, something unmatched until today.
And the season 4 finale that we got, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," is my personal favorite episode of the entire show. Sometimes the best television is made under extreme circumstances. The Doctor Who episode "Midnight" was also created very quickly after a previously planned script fell apart, and that's one of the best episodes RTD wrote.
This series has done nothing but confirm that Chibnall is an incredibly stubborn person. 1. He refused to become showrunner unless the doctor was made a woman. 2. He refused to drop Yaz from the cast despite the vast majority of fans disliking her character or finding her boring. 3. When he was told he had to cut back to a 3 year plan instead of a 5 year one, he refused to cut any of his ideas and made a series with three separate story arcs and series villains (four if you count the Sontarans!) 4. When he had to cut the episode count, instead of leaving dangling plot threads that would have hopefully been resolved in the missing episode he kept all the superfluous stuff in there, leading to an incredibly bloated and confusing story.
Chris Chibnall took on the position as showrunner - as such it's his vision of a show that gets implemented. That's the way things are run in TV production, him being the creative head doesn't make him anymore stubborn than any former DW showrunner. 1. It's the showrunner's prerogative to select the actors for characters they create. Surely the producers will also have some influence / some veto power as well but I assume Chris Chibnall will have presented his vision / main storyline before having been hired as the executive producer / showrunner. There's nothing wrong about his vision of a female Doctor. 2. Since when does a showrunner have to listen to the fandom? He was hired to implement his artistic vision. That included in his case going back to the original 3 person companion formula. Was that a good decision? That's debatable, I agree with your criticism insofar that Yaz was underused in series 11/12. But that changed completely in series 13. The portrayal of Yaz got a lot of praise this season. 3. I don't know where you got that idea from. Probably from the fact that the BBC told media back in 2017 that DW would be financed for at least another five series. However there is no indication - and it's also highly unlikely - that Chris Chibnall had a five year contract. That would have been a first for the whole history of the show. Chibnall himself has confirmed in several interviews that he had a 3 year story which was supposed to have the Timeless Child reveal at the end of season 12 and the pre-Hartnell Doctor reveal in the middle of the three series run. What we see now with Flux is a condensed version of his plan for series 13. The story arc is likely to be extended / concluded in the pen-/ultimate specials. There is nothing that contradicts his claim of having a "3 seasons and out"-plan with Jody Whitaker. 4. I personally found series 13 neither confusing nor bloated. I enjoyed the parallel story telling very much, but I can understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Especially those fans, that had a huge dislike for the Timeless Child reveal from series 12 are likely to be very disappointed.
1. So what? He wants a female doctor, big deal. 2. He's the writer, not the fans 3. No evidence to suggest this "5 year plan" ever existed because Chibnall or anyone else who works with him on doctor who has ever said anything like that
@@fivish Average time spent watching broadcast TV has taken a huge drop for years. In the last decade alone the number of minutes in the UK has been halved in the age group 4-45. I myself am nearing age 50 rapidly and I haven't turned on the telly for the last decade. I, like many others, watch Doctor Who on some kind of streaming service. Doctor Who is an international hit, much more so than in the classic era. The budget for each season has been increasing due to the fact that the franchise rakes in tons of money. You may not like the current incarnation, which is fair enough, but Doctor Who is far from dying.
@@zaphod2073 It *was* an international sensation. As an American fan I can say that, at least in the states, Doctor Who’s media presence has evaporated off of much of the popular and even pop culture spaces. This has been happening since Capaldi, and the quality of the show isn’t necessarily a foolproof deterrent. A show can die in two ways: From the outside and from within. The show already died from within in the 80s, when the BBC pulled the plug even though public support was still relatively high. Right now, or at least before Series 12, the BBC seems to be very supportive of the show, but the audience is less so. Big budgets can only get you so far when, and I’m speaking hyperbolically, nobody watches it. If you have any doubts about the state of the show, the BBC just surrendered total creative control to Bad Wolf for the foreseeable future. That doesn’t appear to be the decision of an organization with total confidence in their property.
Personally, I think that if you cut characters who, in my opinion, add very little to the story overall like Dan, Diane, Vinder, Bel and The Grand Serpent, it really wouldn't take much effort to write them out, as well the Ravagers, who felt a bit too forced as villains, although they would likely be more difficult to remove, and focus on the Lupari, Sontarans, Weeping Angels and Division, then Flux may have worked. Instead it was overstuffed with too much time wasting on new characters who ultimately had little effect on the plot rather than trying to wrap up the story of the Timeless Child and Division, which is what I, at least, was there for and even at the end they've started setting up a new villain even though Whittaker has 3 episodes left of her whole run.
@@BRAWGWill yeah and I really enjoy bel and vinder's screen presence. To be honest except for joseph williamson and the little kid from the angel episode I felt all the characters compelling. I get that the plot is a mess, but I can forgive that
In the end, for me the six-parter felt like an old game my friends and I used play when we were bored. Somebody would start writing a story but could only do one line. Then he would hand it off to the next person, who would either pick up on the first story or go in some completely different direction, but only using one line. Then it would go to the next person... and so on and so on so that at the end, the finished story would be one giant jumble of confusion that barely made sense. Except that in this case, it is Chibnall himself who is doing all the writing. He writes one scene and then a completely different scene, then writes in a character who has nothing to do the previous two scenes, then goes in a different direction again, then add two more characters, then brings in a villian... and so on and so on until at the end of the story, it is one giant jumble of confusion.
Sapphire and Steel already did the “Time and Space as two conflicting forces” very well. It felt like Chibnall was trying to replicate some of their plot points into Doctor Who without trying to fit it in with the rules of the universe that Doctor Who operates in
Huh... I'd never heard of that series. I might have to see if I can check that out to see how it handles things, because time vs space as opposing forces is just such a weird concept.
@@EmeralBookwise Agreed, especially as there's a strong case to be made that Time is an emergent property related to the entropy (decay) of matter, not an independent entity. If there are no material things (particles, planets, people) that can experience Time, or no spatial events that time can be measured against, Time may as well not exist... and probably doesn't.
@@ftumschk: indeed.... although I sorta feel like maybe that's the point being driven at. Time in this story is being presented as a destructive force, which sort of fits the entropy definition. Where it seems to fall apart, however, is in "space" supposedly being the opposing forces. Everything we actually see them doing seems to not be about destroying space itself, but rather the matter occupying it. Whatever you want to call that which opposes time, I feel like maybe the root conflict is something more relatable being dressed up in pseudo science . It's order/chaos, creation/destruction, stagnation/change. "Time" is said to be caged by "space", it is imposed upon, forced to confirm, but it still wears away at its oppressor thus creating entropy... or at least that's the best I can try to make sense of any of it.
@@EmeralBookwise warning: Sapphire & Steel makes the pacing of Hartnell-era Doctor Who look like the final episode of The Flux by comparison, and it's trying to do heady Big Idea™ Jorge Luis Borges-style scifi with a '70s BBC budget and special effects. It can be a very thought-provoking watch-but it can also be a very boring watch; it's highly dependent on what the viewer brings to it, IMHO.
@@natbarmore: well, I can at least say that budget alone won't scare me off. I'm an old school sci-fi fan that grew up on stuff like classic Doctor Who and Blake's Seven.
As someone brought up in a review I've seen (can't remember which), great set up would have been seeing the work of the Division throughout series 11 or 12. Maybe the villian of the Rosa episode was a member of the Division, etc. Etc. Have instances where it's ominously creepy how efficient they are in completely upheaving whole societies and historical events.
They just go off at the end like nothing happened, but most of the universe was destroyed?? What are they going out to see? The destruction? This season took Earth-centrism to a ridiculous level.
In the first episode when Azure was still in her Human form, what was that alarm beacon thingy that they destroyed all about? Why did they pretend to ignore it?
Yeah it's just completely forgotten about. I was enjoying her as a human and her dynamic with the man but it seems she was literally just introduced that way for shock value
I think the series itself was always 6 episodes. The 8 episodes was referring to the special too, but remember this production still did 8 episodes, as they filmed 2 specials, the new years one and the spring one.
The series gave us way too many plot lines and characters but not enough time to explain them and to tie them up. One episode wouldn't even help that. It feels like they had to pivot the story slightly due to how the Timeless Children twist went over and thus we get a story about the Doctor having a single-minded focus on her memories and The Division while we get plot characters and a universe altering event that the Doctor doesn't really care about too much as she's focused on her memories more.
Is nobody else frustrated by the ep 1 - ep 2 jump where they were basically just like "they magically survived" with a very unsatisfactory explanation?
The reason I think The Timeless Child MUST be actively retconned, is mainly that it takes away too much without adding in anything of benefit, but also the more meta reason that it impacts OUR story of the Doctor. Think about it, even if its never refed again in the show, any and every attempt to explain the Doctor, official and unofficial, including fan wikis, *must* devote space to detailing it in order to be complete! This is far more disruptive than the 'half human" line its often compared to (besides, there was an almost decade long break for that to be forgotten, no such break in production here). And if its never brought up again, then whats the point? Also, on a more subjective note, the notion that there are literally thousands of unknown Doctors wandering through space and time (mostly on Division missions, I guess, but not all), *in the same TARDIS no less*...just really bugs me. I hate, hate, HAAATE that idea, and I'm honestly not sure I can really articulate why, it just really rubs me the wrong way. Even if TC is mentioned, I know we'll never see any of them, unless a future showrunner uses it to just Stunt Cast Famous Actor for a couple of eps...Ugh, I just really personally detest that happening, even if it's an actor I like! So, those are my rational AND irrational reasons for wanting TTC actively retconned! Agree or disagree?
The only reason for the timeless child is because they thought Doctor Who was too white and a classic series had too many males. How do we fix this problematic show? Erase the first doctor's past and replace him with a woman of color. The timeless child was just so Doctor Who could break the glass ceiling and stick it to male fans. At the same time hit two diversity checkboxes to get PC points on Twitter. At this point even a redcon is not going to get most of the Doctor Who fans back. They tried to replace the old fans with new ones and I don't think it's working.
Strongly disagree because the show then becomes a dog chasing it's tail and that is what kills franchises (Moffat came up with the best possible solution with Hell Bent and even that has its problems). I'll grant you it's not the same thing as the TV movie cause of the gap but look at the Master post Missy, that was a season ago and most of is thought cause it was a different showrunner it doesn't matter. How do we explain the Dr unofficialy and officially? It CAN literally be as simple as the next Dr just declaring they're a Timelord from Gallifrey and leave it at that (she technically still is if you infer it as she's the first Timelord and was raised on Gallifrey). I don't care what's written on the wiki, you know what else is written there? Jar Jar is canon. Nothing on a wiki matters. The Doctors running around... It doesn't matter. Sorry but Dr Who as a coherent whole universe doesn't work. Treating as such just leaves headaches.
@@geraldvance7925 How do you KNOW that's why they did this? Would it honestly have improved things if the pre-hartnell doctors had all been white and male?
@@thevacuumofcomments2946 William Hartnell has been the first doctor for the last 50 years.. ever since 2016 a lot of franchises got on this whole diversity inclusion bandwagon and they started to deconstruct characters and franchises. Doctor Who was one of those franchises. I know this is the truth because I was told by younger new Doctor Who fans that Doctor Who was too white. The BBC has had an issue with straight white males for the last 4 years. People have been very vocal about that and you see it in the material they produce. The timeless child was a tool to make Doctor Who no longer a white male and bake him a black female. The timeless child also ruins the timelords gallifrey and the doctor's origin story. As far as I'm concerned William Hartnell is the first doctor. No BBC feminist committee or a millennial SJW on Twitter is going to tell me otherwise. I've been watching Doctor Who since 1975. I could tell the changes that were made lately were not made to benefit Doctor Who they're in made as a social political statement at the expense of the franchise. Star Wars and Star Trek went down the same road and are suffering the same fate. People from the BBC called me a misogynist or a Nazi because I thought the doctors character should be left alone and they should have a spin-off story bringing back Ramana or the Rani which would have made more sense and would have made more fans happy. Instead they wanted to stick it to male fans... Doctor Who lost a large chunk of its fan base and they're not coming back. I hope the ginger swapping and the virtue signaling was worth it.
@Tom Meehan news flash! Doctor Who had diversity way before 2016. Doctor Who had female timelords back in the '80s. They had black people in Doctor Who back in the 1960s. But if you talk to a lot of SJW millennials they will tell you that Doctor Who was only for straight white males and it's problematic. Taking the doctor who is a male character and switching genders because of 'diversity'did not work. It was all a big virtue signal and everyone saw through it. In my opinion all of you guys who are screaming that there's not enough diversity everywhere are just a bunch of people who are racist against white males or straight people. I don't have a problem with diversity. I have a problem with people taking male characters and make them female just to deconstruct men. Same thing with race swapping. It's lazy and it's pandering and most people don't want to shoehorned in their escapeism. What are you talking about on my profile? I don't know what you're talking about. Who is this POS you were talking about that's on my profile? Are you talking about me? That's my point you virtue signaling SJWs are a bunch of hypocrites. You don't even know me and you see my face and you calling me a POS... No my friend you're the POS. People like you killed Doctor Who with your virtue signaling and your pandering to 5% of the audience.. fake SJWs like yourself killed Doctor Who and drove away the fan base. I hope that puts a smile on your face.
Honestly, I think even if the we had more episodes it wouldn’t have made such a difference. I doubt we would get a proper answer for anything that happened this season. I’m just really upset about the fact that timeless child story did happen and i am curious how RTD is going to play with that story-if he will.
I wondered that too. And if the new Doctor (possibly Jo) wakes up and it turns out the whole Timeless Child detour has been a regeneration hallucination, will the fans mind too much?
The fact that some fans think this is good Doctor Who is a testament to how far the quality of DW has fallen. I’m not trying to be a hater and I like some contributions if the Chibnall era. But can you really say to yourself that anything comes close in quality compared to Empty Child, Satan Pit, Family of blood, Blink, silence in the library, Amy’s choice, god complex, orient express, heaven sent?? Don’t kid yourself. This is not good Dr Who. Sorry to be negative. I hope the specials give Jodie some good material to work with. Roll on the 60th.
@@mrdr0161 That's not my intention, but I think some people are so desperate for quality DW they've been bending over backwards to say The Flux is good with wild head canons to gloss over gaping plot holes and inconsistencies. I was just saying in my opinion, despite liking some Chibnall stuff, we should remember what good DW actually looks like and it certainly isn't a series where half the cast is redundant to the plot.
@Tom Meehan Obviously art is subjective, if some people genuinely enjoy this era I don’t think they’re dumb because they don’t have the same opinion as me. I’m actually jealous of those people. I wish I could enjoy it too. I was just saying to those who bend over backwards to rationalise that The Flux is good should keep in mind the widely accepted quality of incumbent eras.
I enjoyed individual beats in each episode but over all it didn't work. My feeling with Diane is Dan was supposed to play a bigger part and it would have been clear she was a hostage to effect him. But as it is it makes no sense.
That's exactly how I felt about Flux too. I could definitely enjoy it on a moment-to-moment basis, and I can't act like I didn't enjoy watching it, but the whole structure of the thing falls apart the second you start thinking hard about it
the "8 episode" quote was including the Easter special... Jodie's final special had not been announced yet but the second special had. So 6 episodes for the main season and 2 for the specials... that's how he got 8 out of that...
My biggest problem is how the slowly disintegrating village seemed to just fall off the story once the episode stopped. Yaz and Dan are out in the 1906 world suddenly. All the creepy village by itself in the cosmos stuff gone and forgotten.
I hated that it was all questions and like no answers. I just binged it and kept going onto the next episode like surely they'll explain in the next episode or have a big reveal and never got it
When I used to work in the corporate world we had a saying, "set your expectations low and you will rarely be disappointed." Unfortunately, based on Broadchurch my expectations were high for the Chibnall era. When Flux was announced I thought this was going to work because it was a single story like Broadchurch. Instead we got what the Flux. I hope the production pressures do not indicate that the BBC is trying to kill Doctor Who again. They did just that during the JNT era in order to cancel the show in 1989.
I absolutely understand all your points. I enjoyed the series, but only because I was trying not to think about it too deeply. I agree that it was chaotic and we certainly didn't get answers to a lot of things.
I think a more impactful final scene with the watch would be the Doctor realizing that her obsession with the memories was harming her relationship with Yaz. I actually thought that's what they were going with on my first watch.
Remember there are three specials airing next year, the new year’s special, the spring/easter special and the centenary special. I believe the first two specials were filmed in the same production block as Flux, bumping it up to 8 overall episodes. So I don’t think they necessarily lost an episode during production.
10:05 "Why did it wipe out Azure and Swarm?" Honestly, by this point, I was happy for any deus ex machina to come in and do exactly that, because the way those two were set up, there was no way we were getting rid of them without one of those. I have many of the same questions about this entire series, but the one thing that really stands out above all else is that I found Swarm and Azure to be two of the least compelling villains the show has ever produced. They're depicted as basically omnipotent except when the plot hands them the Idiot Ball, and omnipotent direct antagonists are just not interesting. This descended into "only the writers can save them now" really quickly and really predictably. I wanted those two gone from the second I first saw them. Not in a "love to hate this smug villain" way (that was maybe the one thing that actually worked about the Grand Serpent - that's how you portray a character I want to see get what's coming to them), but in a "if I never see you again, it will be too soon" kind of way. "Get out of this story" is not a sentiment I should have towards the main villain at the start of episode 1 of 6.
I realized Chris Chibnall was a lost cause the moment he followed one of DW's best cliffhangers in years (i.e. the Doctor's transformation into a Weeping Angel) with the visual equivalent of a deflating balloon. The Doctor puts her hands down. SHE JUST PUTS HER HANDS DOWN. YOU FUCKING FAIL, CHIBNALL.
I don't know if anyone explained it in the comments. Chibnall was asked late into production if he would add episodes to 2022. Instead of making more, he simply extended Flux into 2022, meaning the original run of it doesn't have an ending. That is what I got from his interviews
I don’t think he did extend flux into 2022 given The Vanquishers aired in 2021 and the three extra specials; Eve of the Daleks, Legend of the Sea Devils and The Power of the Doctor have nothing to do with The Flux at all. 👍🏻
The shortening of the schedule is a fair point. *But the bad planning is just another consequence of the showrunner doing a poor job* (which is _not_ the same as being as being a poor showrunner). You have been ( *overly* ) generous since the beginning of this showrunner/actor combo. *Agendas?* Go ahead. But at least let us see it sold well. This is just bad, even if we would like to explain it. Griffith and Riefenstahl works and agendas *_turn our stomachs_* , but they were great artists. This is just tomorrows recycling.
@Tom Meehan Sure, but the thing up for debate is whether or not Flux had an episode cut during production. Since the Easter special was shot at the same time as Flux and the New Year special… that’s the eight episodes they intended to film. There’s plenty of reasons why Flux was awful without lumping it entirely on Chibnall, I just think this last minute episode switch up conspiracy is a reach.
I enjoyed this series, but I had quite a few problems (especially by the end) that I don’t think were tied up and resolved very well. So I agree with a lot of your points here. I will defend one point you made though. The Rogue Angel describes Claire as her ‘sanctuary’. It’s only there because the other Angels are hunting it. When they change their plan to take the Doctor instead, there’s no reason to live in Claire’s mind anymore, because it’s no longer being pursued. I don’t think that’s a question that needs answering because it’s very self-explanatory based on the established concept.
I'm very conflicted about Flux. I genuinely had fun watching it, and there were lots of things I liked. But I was so confused the entire time I watched it. This is kind of like if The Wedding of River Song was stretched into 6 episodes, in terms of how incoherent it was. It felt like there were 10-12 episodes worth of ideas that were crammed into just 6 episodes. Very strange.
This was a really great video that injects some much-needed nuance into the conversation. Also, it shows a lot of maturity that a lot of people in the fan base lack. Thank you.
One year later I couldn't tell you what in the heck happened in Flux. I enjoyed watching it with friends at the time. We had some discussion like, 'was the universe just mostly destroyed and was that fixed?' I'm just drawing a blank.
So far the best review I've heard of why flux didn't work. It was methodical, and took things into consideration I hadn't thought about. Heard too many jerks saying "cause chibnal sucks!", or "cause diversity doesn't work!". This review actually puts some brains behind it. I'm so subscribing to your channel!
Surely if they lost an episode midway through production, then the important content of that episode was either: 1. put into OUT, SOTF, and TV, in which case none of the answers to any of our questions were ever written at all and everything Chibnall thought we absolutely needed was put on the screen. or 2. omitted entirely, in which case Chibnall had the required materials to complete his story but decided not to rework them and integrate them into the second block of filming. Surely the resolutions to the plot threads of the series weren't cut for time? With all the filler of OUT and SOTF that did nothing to progress the plot, surely there weren't ever answers that were abandoned in favour of that?
yea but we had fundamental filmmaking blunders even before this season (writing mostly). the missing episode only contributed to the regression that was already happening.
You raise a good point there with the shooting schedule possibly having ripped into this, however I think that this is an excuse that can only go so far. If it had created, say, 6 or 7 holes in the story, then it could have been somewhat understandable. However, we're dealing with something like 2892 holes, and they all can't be down to scenes that had to be scrapped or an actor not being available for a shooting day. Besides, assuming that they really didn't learn of the episode cut until after the first production block, it didn't stop Chibnall to keep introducing *even more* tangents in those final two episodes. Why cling to subplots like UNIT and the Grand Serpent instead of just focusing on what you already have, especially when said elements don't amount to much in the first place? Anyway, considering how even "The Halloween Apocalypse" struggled to be coherent (or other Chibnall work outside Doctor Who for that matter), I doubt that 2 or more episodes would have changed much. The pacing would have been more balanced and the editing would have been better, but I'm afraid those two areas would have been the only ones to show improvement. The story itself was ill-conceived and no longer shooting schedule in the world would have made it more coherent or any less baffling. That the ending scene of "Flux" retreads a point that was already explored and dealt with in the previous series finale only confirms how little thought went into the writing. Ah well, tl;dr version of my rambling comment: The assumed tightened shoot didn't truly create problems in the story, it only magnified the ones that were already there.
11 months late, but I think the 8 episode count given might refer to the 6 episodes of Flux we got + Eve of the Daleks + Power of the Doctor I don't remember where I saw it but I heard at one point that Legend of the Sea Devils wasn't originally planned to happen. Take that with a pinch of salt though since I'm only vaguely remembering
my wife and i just binge watched season 11 12 and 13 of dr who to catch up and prepare for season 14 soon. we both thought it was great, especially the late episode. the new master actor we both think is great. thought were were only like 1 or 2 average episodes in the bunch. looking forward to the next doctor in a few months.
I still say that if you were going to start from scratch knowing you're only getting 6 episodes, scrap Williamson tunnels (that's just local flavor for Dan's sake), scrap Bel and Vinder and Great Serpent, scrap the weird Diane interlude, but most importantly scrap the Ravagers or Division (preferrably the Ravagers) and keep the Sontarans. A: because of all the stuff that is the story of the Sontarans trying to make hay out of the Flux works the best and is the most relatable/understandable and B: the Ravagers and Division are redundant to each other (if you keep the Ravagers keep them as a one off villain to depict what the hell Division is working against, ie you could just about keep Once Upon Time if you kept its scope localized to that episode and the Ravagers as a one off, defeated in that episode and thus end their narrative there), they have ultimately the same goal and the same means of doing it and C: preferably the Ravagers because they are literally just a whatsit out of nowhere that seems to have no foreshadowing and came off as you said 'that's not how any of this works, it's not how any of this ever worked...'. Whereas you can flesh out Division and even justify Tecteun's motives for bringing the Doctor with them.....
Hi there, first time watching your content. I'm from a group called The Unearthly Podcast. We review new episodes currently on the Tuesday after they air, and yes about half of us had issues already from last season for sure, and this season we were almost in unison with our disappointment, from pace, to wasted characters, to not caring for this Timeless Child story, to a lot of big events and concepts making no sense, and just so many more things. So yes, even if given more time this story was a mess, just a less clustered one with an extra episode. And the semi stand alone episodes were probably the best in the season.
That was a fantastically put together video and I'm glad you're so very open to people having their own opinions. I myself, thoroughly enjoyed Flux, although understand it's flaws. At the end of the day, despite many of it's loose threads and over complication of it's story, Flux made me excited to sit down on a Sunday evening and watch Doctor Who again. Taking it for what it is (as defeatist as that may sound), I had a wonderful time with it! Have a great day Vera!
Some great questions that I've had myself and it's nice to hear them aired. I did enjoy Flux more than Chibnall's earlier series (which isn't saying much) but that was because of individual pieces - the whole was a mess. I feel sorry for the writers who came up with some solid/great ideas, only for Chibnall to bastardise them into this 'single story' that isn't really a single story. Then Chibnall chucks all those fan favourites into the mix, to distract and cover up the lack of a cohesive plot. The pandemic and episode cutdown certainly played it's part, however that isn't a valid excuse IMO. There was plenty of stuff that could have been excised as they played no significant part. As you say, filming hadn't finished which means things can be rewritten. Even with less episodes, he still chose to keep two specials tied in to filming with the six episodes (not counting the centenary special), instead of cutting one special and putting out more series episodes. That was 100% his choice from what I've read. Hey, at least we didn't get a season finale containing half an hour of pure exposition explaining the main thread of the series. That's something. :-)
I'm not sure that the math works out. If you're counting the specials, then Chibnall will actually have nine episodes by the end of this. The six episodes of Flux, plus the New Year's Dalek special, and the two specials next year, including the BBC centenary special.
Chibnall had years to work on season 1 of Broadchurch, and even then it wasn't that great. The acting was fantastic but the actual storyline was mediocre at best. The further diminished writing quality of seasons 2 & 3 showed conclusively that Chibnall is completely incapable of working to a deadline. That's why he includes a deadline/countdown (or Time itself, in the case of Flux) in so much of his work, because it is his own personal greatest adversary.
27:43 I know its unrelated but this is my exact problem with Rey in The Rise of Skywalker. They did the same thing again but worse and it didn't need to be done.
Question: regardless of how we feel about the story lines chosen, they were still chosen. So how many extra episodes (pre special) would you have given them to give these plots the appropriate room to breathe?
Episode 1-4 = great, including Chibnall’s best who work Episode 5-6 - everything falls apart but at least it’s not boring. Thumbnail tells you the main problem. It’s the opposite of too many cooks. Too many ingredients with only one chef and he isn’t exactly Gordon Ramsay
I think you hit the nail there. Chibnall tried to hard to be Moffat with all the twists and angles, but wasn't able to pull it off. And it is somewhat obvious that there was nobody to point out the flaws with this entire sereies, because there are so many of them. Yes, it was entertaining and it was his best work on Dr. Who, but that tells you a lot about his previous work, does it not?
My main criticism of Vanquishers is that the things that happen specifically in that episode aren't set up. The Sontaran conquest of Earth, the using humans to determine the location of the flux event, the smuggling operatives into said project, Kat Stewart being the head of the human resistance, stuff like that. If they got news that they were limited to six episodes came after they had already filmed the pointless fluff that is Yaz and Co. in the early 20th century, then that means they were stuck with that content and unable to have Kat Stewart fight off a Sontaran invasion, and get the intel she needs for the finale to work, and the opportunity to be able to place a mole there. Instead, we get mindless info dumps and "chocolate".
Chibnall never tried to develop any of the characters. He could have dropped some of the story lines midstream if he would have just developed a few of the characters in the end.
As far as developing characters, he's pretty bad with writing companions, and you would think writing a solid companion would be on page one of the Doctor Who Writing Handbook. When I think of Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy and Rory and so one, I almost feel like they are friends. I know their personalities, I know their faults, I know their strengths. Heck, I know much more about Ian and Barbara, Ace or Tegan Jovanka then I will ever know Yaz, Ryan, Graham or Dan.
@Tom Meehan Me too, although I admit that I have not yet entered into the world of audio chapters (excuse me for some grammar mistake, my English is not very good)
I disagree it felt more like the finale of Star Trek TNG when Picard was split into 3 across time, battling an anomaly that would destroy the universe orchestrated by an omnipotent being in the form of Q finishing with a threat from that same being. 😀 TBH once we got to "Division" I was surprised not to see the universe on the back of four elephants stood on the back of a giant turtle, as part of the Marvelous multi-turtleverse!
How To Make Bad Outcomes Extremely impossible 1. Invent time machine. 2. Travel to 22nd century. 3. Invent a machine that can change probability to make probability certain that Bad Outcomes are Extremely impossible Forever.
I just finished getting caught up with doctor who after not watching it for a few years and I can’t fully express have much my brain just turned to mush watching these 6 episodes in one sitting
Okay, now having seen the review I can definitely agree that Covid probably really impacted the quality of the story. A lot of my problems came from how incredibly lore-heavy it was, but having a little more breathing room definitely could have helped with that. I do think that one thing that wouldn't have changed is how confusing the whole "time at war with space" nonsense was. Just,,, what?? Why??? They could have so easily gone "oh, here are two bad guys using an anti-matter weapon to destroy the universe because of their religion," instead of making so incredibly confusing. I really liked the visual designs of the Flux ppl (who's names I never actually caught). They were cool villains. But I had no idea what on earth they were trying to accomplish or where they came from for most of the series. Tecteun is also kind of disappointing. She had so much potential- the doctor's mother who is actually evil and tries to get the doctor to join her?? That I really like. What I don't like is the where tf has she been all this time, what even is division, oh and how does the fugitive doctor even exist? Does the Doctor not have memories of growing up as a child? Was the fugative doctor from before the 1st Doctor? My other problems, such as who or what is the Grand Serpent, Vincent and Bel, and what was going with Diane could all have been solved by more episodes, although I'm not entirely sure just one more would have been enough. Also, now that we've had a second special, doesn't that mean that we had the full number of episodes?
So strange. I agree that it seems they had to lose an episode of Flux *mid-production* ...but they also wrapped Jodie's final episode just short of a year before it's due to broadcast. For comparison, Twice Upon a Time was still being adjusted hours before transition. Some very peculiar scheduling here. I don't think they ever managed to adjust to Covid. Although the next special looks like its set to be one location, small cast, simple shoot of repeated shots. _That's_ how you write in Covid. Looks great, can't wait for that. Still concerned.
Hopefully at the end of this, the entire universe will be rebooted and we'll start with a new doctor in a new universe and no history baggage. RT can start from scratch
I think the thing with the watch was that there wasn't enough time left in the episode to go through its contents. While it was dumb how there was no payoff in the moment, it's not like she destroyed the thing and undid the whole journey. She's just putting it aside for a while to pick up later, because we know the Tardis will just give it back when she asks for it.
We will probably never know how much context and explanation was left on the cutting room floor. We got the action, some great acting and some interesting ideas but contained in a hot mess. Cutting entire threads and characters is very difficult to do in post production cutting individual scenes that drastically reduce the payoff of these threads is probably what happened.
I thought the Grand Serpent and Swarm were the same entity. They wear similarly distinguished clothing and their personalities are basically the same. They even wear the same goddam shoulder pads. But no? They're two different people?? I thought the grand serpent was the entity and the past and swarm was the future version and there would be an event somewhere in between where they would become the other.
In Survivors Of The Flux, Tecteun says that the Weeping Angel was captured after the Doctor was turned into an Angel. There’s a bit she shows her the hologram of it as well. It should have been demonstrated better in the episode especially because the idea of that Angel going through all of that to escape only to be captured and imprisoned like it was nothing. It’s messy certainly but it does get an explanation.
I feel bad for Jodie-I really feel she could have acted anything she was given. Under a better writer, I think her run could have been something like MacGyver in Space.
Yep, lots of unanswered questions. However, as for why Diana was spared, I think she mentions to Vinder in the last episode that she was considered insignificant (or something) and hence they didn't both killing her. (And yes, I realise that that, in itself, doesn't make much sense!).
Speaking of losing enthusiasm... my wife and I got halfway through and stopped. 6 months later, following the announcement of the casting of the 14th Doctor we thought we should maybe finish it just in case the events are going to be referenced going forward.
@@CouncilofGeeks it didn't claire was left behind because she served her purpose.this literally happens with most characters.we dont get the see their reaction to things.I like village but it was just like any other chibbs story in that departement.
So Flux finally aired in Germany, and I have to say I had really low expectations going into this. Instead of listing everything bad, here are a few things I liked about this series: -I absolutely loved the design of the Ravengers -The historic characters were interesting and made me wanna find out more about them -Doggo -The Sheffield/Liverpool banter was quite entertaining -The Sontorans wanting to conquer earth because of horses was one of the best DW humor bits I've seen in years -Casual disability representation -New darker doctor costume -The whole weeping angels episode tbh, I loved the new ideas and especially the visual ideas -The doctor teaming up with herself -The last scene were the Doctor dropped the watch into the Tardis to the 9th Doctor's theme, because it felt like dropping the timeless child ark into nothingness for good
I just think Chibnall is just incapable of crafting a plot in his current state, to the extent I can't fully believe he's the same person that wrote Broadchurch or his past episodes of Who. Were there ghost writers translating his ideas? Were the producers and previous showrunners having to hold his hand until he constructed something coherent? How could someone be competent enough to be able to create those plots, but then be so utterly incapable of even the basics of storytelling in this current situation? There must be some kind of explanation right? An external factor helping him in the past that isn't there now? Or something new that's hindering his ability to write? I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but am I the only one having a really hard time wrapping my head around this massive change in the quality of his output? Can someone smarter than me compare the before and after and figure out what the hell happened?
@@inionanbas615 I don’t know about those last 2 series. When you had teens distributing pornography from usb sticks not using the internet and the incredibly contrived story with the judge like having fainting fits in the court it becomes camp and funny very very fast
I'd say Chibnall might be a bit like George Lucas. He has some good ideas and can do a decent draft script, but needs someone more talented to go over it and actually make it all work.
@@Here_is_Waldo the thing is with Lucas is there is logic even in his worst scripts because as a director he tells the story visually and gets very involved in the editing
I loved Bel and Vinder. I hope they get a spinoff (if they're going to be doing some spinoffs). They are really the only part of this series I enjoyed.
![DID IT SUCK? | Doctor Who Flux FINALE [THE VANQUISHERS REVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vjsOpP2A_IQ/mqdefault.jpg)
What really bothered me is how little Dan and Yaz cared about Jericho’s death. They spent 3 YEARS just the 3 of them, and I don’t believe either shed a tear when he dies
Yaz didn't cry, but she did seem pretty depressed about it. On the other hand, both companions can be a bit mopey so I can see why people would have issues noticing XD
Funny that Time turned out to be the real life villian for Chibnall in the end.
underrated comment omggg
LOL
The sheer amount of characters in this thumbnail alone really sums up the Flux experience. And it doesn't even have everyone.
It's quite telling that the BBC's own Flux "Story Breakdown" video only mentions four characters - i.e., only four characters were central to the main storyline of the season (and even then, three would have been enough; there was no meaningful difference between Swarm and Azure).
But is it really such a big cast, considering that Flux was a near 6 hour drama? I honestly connected with all the characters (both villains and heroes) and I felt invested in each individual story arc. I think criticising the size of the cast doesn't address the major issue: that a large part of the DW fandom simply doesn't enjoy the current style of storytelling of the Chibnall era.
@@zaphod2073 aye that's related to the fact it's shit.
@Tom Meehan aye buncha shit ain't it
@@zaphod2073 A lot of the characters were indeed interesting, but that makes it even worse imo because literally none of them except Jericho got a satisfying conclusion.
I agree that shortening the season didn't do anyone any favours, but it doesn't change one major fact. None of the characters that Chibnall introduced made any sense or did contribute anything towards solving the overall mystery. Not Dan, not Diane, not Vinder, Bel or the Baby. Not the Professor, not the Serpent and ceretainly not Swarm and Azure. Heck, even Tecteun was a complete waste. The only character that had some sort of insight or knowledge was actually Doggo, because he knew the Doctor before. I am not even going into all the other logical mistakes, because you can't explain the Flux and the questions surrounding it with Covid. Chibnall may have had a great story on his mind, but he sure as hell did not know how to deliver it. Take away the great special effects and the fast pacing, what is there left? Well? Not a lot. And none of that would have changed with more episodes, because everything or everyone has been dealt with. The Doc is off to a new adventure as if nothing happened. So, yes. I do think it that simple. Chibnall is a bad storyteller. At least when it comes to Doctor Who.
I'd argue that even outside of Doctor Who Chibnall's track record isn't very good. "Torchwood" was all over the place in its first two seasons and "Broadchurch" went completely off the rails after its first season (that gets so much weaker on a rewatch). Concerning "Born and Bred" I've only ever seen the video that Stubagful made on it, but it doesn't appear as if that show was written with a gold pen either.
Hard to say there are even great special effects and fast pacing to 'take away'. The pacing is choppy almost the whole way through, being fast isn't really a good thing in that case. And the effects are more often than not pretty terrible... the Daleks, those blue time-swarm things, every hologram. So that doesn't really help, but taking those out of the picture anyway just to focus on what Chibnall did personally... I think it's fair to say Chibnall bad.
Is it reductive? Yes, but only in the sense that saying it in two words is obviously going to simplify it. You can bet your ass 99% of people who dislike this era would have far more issues to explain in-depth if given the chance to really get into it.
EDIT: Can also point to Jay Exci's 'The Fall of Doctor Who' for a good example of when someone does go far more indepth than "Chibnall bad", like, the criticism is 'that's not really an argument' and then they make the argument and immediately people are up in arms like WOAH WOAH, get this argument outta here! MEAN!
@@Kaoruishere i've already seen someone suggest that season 1 of broadchurch was ghost written.
I'd still keep Jericho regardless of how important he was to the plot cause he was easily the best part of this whole thing.
Absolutely correct, yeah. Also Kate did absolutely nothing. Arguably, Claire could've been dropped too. If Chibnall needed an extra hour to tell the full story, dropping all of these pointless characters wouldn've probably freed up an hour to fit everything in.
As much as I adore Dan, it would have made more sense for Claire to be introduced as the new companion and then have the mystery of the Angel being inside her built until Episode 4 when the Angel is revealed. Oh and the Williamson Tunnels concept is honestly a really cool idea, its a shame that didn't get a full episode- that way Williamson could be introduced within his own episode rather than showing up at random points during the series and maybe he could walk through to the present day and spend some point with Kate, which could have made her presence feel a bit more necessary.
I agree. I love that there are so many unanswered historical mysteries and oddities out there. I love history and a love mysteries. Like so many of them I feel would be perfect for a Doctor Who episode. like the Tesla episode how nobody had any explanation for the mysterious lightning and stuff. Unanswered historical mysteries are ripe for creativity and for shows like Doctor Who to put their own spin on. To this day nobody knows why Williamson built all those tunnels so it could have been for literally anything. A mystery like that is perfect for exploration in a Doctor Who episode.
@@fivish no, she's not Clara. Claire is the character in this season with the Angel hiding inside her mind
That's a really clever idea. I think maybe the professor and Claire as companions within the season then dropping hints that she's got the angel inside her. That would have made it work a lot better.
Edit: I just enjoyed the professor, so it would have been fun to have him along too.
@@fivish That's Clara
I can definitely see that working- the other thing I would have done is combine Claire and Diane's characters.
I really hate the direction the series has gone and that’s because what I always liked was simply, mysterious old kindly alien professor type traveling around time and space in a stolen craft stumbling into problems and solving them. These huge epic universe shattering events I’m just done with.
@Tom Meehan Ill make sure to mention it to him the next time I see him for coffee! 😀
That and they keep making The Doctor more and more special and it just doesn't work. Every episode just seems to resolve with "I'm the Doctor, I'm special" instead of actual cleverness or work. The Doctor just becomes a deus ex machina.
good go watch some other show.
Hey, just offering some additional insight into what we know about the production.
So when you brought up the 8-11 episode count, we need to remember that it wasn't until the latter-part of filming the production blocks that the centenary-regeneration/special was commissioned by the BBC. Chibnall was referring to the difference between the S11 and S12 11-episode filming blocks (10 seasoned episodes and 1 special) to go now to 6-episodes for the season and two specials. So I don't think that numbered episode count (which was established before filming) is the issue.
Now, we know that the two filming blocks are split by their directors. 1,2 and 4 going to Jamie Magnus Stone then 3, 5 and 6 going to Azhur Saleem. For me, the big issues and when the serialised story starts to fall apart is Episode 5 and 6 when we get UNIT, Tecteun, the Grand Serpent returning etc. We also know that the Bel/Vinder scenes in Ep 4 were doing by a 2nd UNIT team at the same time as the 2nd block (confirmed by crew on Twitter). Also, 6-episode dramas are the standard at this point at the BBC. 'Doctor Who' has actually been the very rare exception over the past few years. I'd be very surprised if the studio thought they'd be getting more than 6 episodes once they knew the episode-count would be reduced.
With this in mind, I honestly think that "what happened" (and this might sound pessimistic on my part) is that Chibnall just got way too ambitious and threw way too many plot elements into the episode meaning everything gets muddled. You can see this happen throughout his run, especially Series 12 and it's not exclusive to Flux. The main thing that made Flux different as an audience was that it wasn't until the end when it started to fall apart because the story seemed to be heading to these conclusions...that then never happened. Maybe there were some production issues and some contracts and elements were put into motion really early on that they couldn't back out of and had to include (maybe they didn't want to cast Craig Parkinson and then remove his character once they realised it wasn't going to pay off, or maybe they had spent money on UNIT sets and couldn't back out). You brought up the "Taking me back to Atropos in the past" example from 'Once, Upon Time'. But this is something that's been present throughout the Chibnall era. Unless there's been an issue throughout his entire run, I think that form of exposition is standard for this team.
For me, I think the "what happened" is on the creative side. Chibnall gave himself a million plates to spin and then dropped most of them by the end. It was self-defeating.
It's always good to hear your insights, Will ☺
k
lol chibs even managed to rub you the wrong way. I saw you breaking down with every episode of the chibs era. Even you can't defend this crap any longer. You were the last fan to keep hope alive and chibs broke you. Hope we can get the old mr tardis back now that RTD's back.
The greatest gifts from the Flux: Professor Jericho & the Dog Man.
Dont forget evil Dan
My biggest issue with Flux overall was that I felt it had so much potential. I looked forward to each new episode, and enjoyed the first few episodes... But the ending felt so unsatisfying... Which in serialised over episodic storytelling really hurts the replayability of the show. I can watch Series 2 over and over while skipping the episodes I don't like, but with Flux being one story, a landing that doesn't work makes it difficult to rewatch episodes that just serve to build up to it, with the exception of the Sontaran one that could reasonably be watched in isolation.
Agreed, its the same problem broudchurch has, the final EP of series 1 is a massive stab in the back to the audience, making the first 7 decent episodes feel pointless to rewatch.
I also think you'll struggle with war of the sontariens, there's a fair bit of flux stuff wedged in and knowing that the sontariens will return a couple EPs later all makes it seem irrelevant as a standalone piece
When you say series 2 do you mean Jodie Whittaker's second series, ie: series 12 or David Tennant's first series ie: series 2?
@@LewysC people generally mean series 2 when they say series 2 but I guess only the op will ever know the answer 😂😂
@@LewysC I meant Series 2, the first David Tennant series haha. I picked it for this example because it's a series with some of my favourite and least favourite episodes in pretty equal measure.
@@benjamindavis4974 I'm late to the party but basically: Each episode focuses on a person which might have killed the child, but (seemingly) didn't. Right before the last episode, a few possibilities are there: Maybe there were clues, which void the alibi of one of the suspects, but hidden in other episodes? Maybe they all played a part (Murder on the orient express style)? What about David Tenants character, he seems a bit shady and mysterious?
But no: The murderer, who is just a random character with barely a line at all so far -basically an extra-, just wanders into the police station and confesses. As a viewer, you never had a chance to figure it out. Not in a million years. And nothing that happened in all those episodes before matters at all or ties into any of the other episodes. You can literally watch the first ten minutes of the first episode and then the last and miss absolutely nothing of the crime or meaningful parts of its solving.
If there would have been writing that's actually good, you would want to rewatch the series in it's entirety and would actually catch a lot of clues you would have missed during your first watch.
It’s interesting hearing your point about whether the episode count was cut down. I assumed the 8 episodes was just the 6-episode series and 2 specials (new year and Easter). It was announced months later, that they’d been asked to do another special on top of that (the centenary). So a 6 episode series and 3 specials. From that perspective, I’m not sure that necessarily suggests the episode count was cut down. But it is interesting that Chris said that they MAY end up with 8, rather than the usual 11. That suggests he wasn’t completely sure how many episodes they would get in the end. We may never really know what actually happened behind the scenes.
@@DBProds96Not exactly. When it was 10-episodes, it wasn’t going to be Flux, or at least, it wasn’t going to be one long story. The whole ‘one-story’ idea only happened when COVID forced them to change their plans, according to Chris Chibnall. So it was cut down, but the specific story we were given wasn’t the original plan. My question is more about how long Flux was supposed to be after they’d decided to do it as one story.
@@DBProds96 Very early in the production process
@@LaurenceGill2000 so they should have had time to fix it then right?
Honestly, one of the things that disappointed me most, was the utter lack of attempt to build up the relationships of the TARDIS crew. After the years of shoddy character building, especially concerning Yaz and Ryan, I really hoped this season would be kind of a refocusing of character given Yaz was the only remaining companion left. I was pleasantly surprised before with Clara, who was a mystery box and not a character in season 7 and grew a personality after a reshuffling of the cast.
But nope, I don't know if it was the Covid restrictions or just bad writing, probably both, but we got minimal character development on Yaz's part. Most importantly, they brought in a new companion without giving his relationship with the Doctor... Anything? The actors seem like they're having a blast together, but there's absolutely nothing in the text to characterize Dan and the Doctor's relationship. The TARDIS crew spend more than half the series apart, often separated completely by narrative shortcuts. Beyond Covid restrictions, which were known to some degree during the writing, not developing Yaz's character and bringing in a new companion who seemingly has somewhat of a character outline but refusing to connect him emotionally to the doctor is disappointing.
when have they ever character built the companions, this has to be the stupidest comment i have ever seen.
I'm pretty sure the 8 episodes Chibnall was talking about was for the six episodes of season 13 and the two specials that had been greenlit. The centenary special was added at a later date. When all is said and done though the production team have to live and die by what is on screen and Doctor Who Flux is a complete mess. Even if some of the fanbase are willing to overlook its shortcomings the general public must have watched it and had all their worst fears about the poor state of Doctor Who confirmed.
Yes, that is it - 6 episode season with two specials, then the centenary episode added later. Originally it was going to be 11 episodes total - 8 for the season and 3 specials, with no mention of a centenary special at that time.
Losing two episodes is a big loss but filming was still underway so things can be rewritten to work. The first two specials wouldn't have been shot yet (not while the main series was filming), so they could have taken one special and added it to the main season. That could have helped a lot and given the plot (what little there was) more time. Excising a lot of the pointless stuff would have helped too, but then Chibnall does love to pointlessly draw things out.
Not sure he could do it-- in 8 episodes...
Susan told her teachers that space and time are separate, and she couldn't solve a school assigned problem because they weren't included
While it is fair, to point out production issues, it is no excuse for bad execution.
For a counter example consider Babylon 5 season 4:
During the season JMS (the showrunner) was told mid production there would not be a 5th season. So he had to cut the remaining schedule planned by 4 episodes, to move in 3 episodes from the planned 5th season to finish up one major story arc. Originially S4E18 "Intersections in Real Time" would have been the season finale. He had to jugle pushing that one ahead without making everything seem rushed; produce a new series finale (which would have aired as the final episode) _and_ when all of a sudden the 5th season was greenlit by another network _produce_ a new S4 finale and keep the originally shot finale on the shelf for the true show finale at the end of season 5 (which is the reason on actress is in the show finale, beside leaving the show in Season 5)
Thats what a _competent_ showrunner is able to do. Oh and btw, JMS has written like 90 out of the 110 episodes, something unmatched until today.
And the season 4 finale that we got, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars," is my personal favorite episode of the entire show. Sometimes the best television is made under extreme circumstances. The Doctor Who episode "Midnight" was also created very quickly after a previously planned script fell apart, and that's one of the best episodes RTD wrote.
This series has done nothing but confirm that Chibnall is an incredibly stubborn person.
1. He refused to become showrunner unless the doctor was made a woman.
2. He refused to drop Yaz from the cast despite the vast majority of fans disliking her character or finding her boring.
3. When he was told he had to cut back to a 3 year plan instead of a 5 year one, he refused to cut any of his ideas and made a series with three separate story arcs and series villains (four if you count the Sontarans!)
4. When he had to cut the episode count, instead of leaving dangling plot threads that would have hopefully been resolved in the missing episode he kept all the superfluous stuff in there, leading to an incredibly bloated and confusing story.
Chris Chibnall took on the position as showrunner - as such it's his vision of a show that gets implemented. That's the way things are run in TV production, him being the creative head doesn't make him anymore stubborn than any former DW showrunner.
1. It's the showrunner's prerogative to select the actors for characters they create. Surely the producers will also have some influence / some veto power as well but I assume Chris Chibnall will have presented his vision / main storyline before having been hired as the executive producer / showrunner. There's nothing wrong about his vision of a female Doctor.
2. Since when does a showrunner have to listen to the fandom? He was hired to implement his artistic vision. That included in his case going back to the original 3 person companion formula. Was that a good decision? That's debatable, I agree with your criticism insofar that Yaz was underused in series 11/12. But that changed completely in series 13. The portrayal of Yaz got a lot of praise this season.
3. I don't know where you got that idea from. Probably from the fact that the BBC told media back in 2017 that DW would be financed for at least another five series. However there is no indication - and it's also highly unlikely - that Chris Chibnall had a five year contract. That would have been a first for the whole history of the show. Chibnall himself has confirmed in several interviews that he had a 3 year story which was supposed to have the Timeless Child reveal at the end of season 12 and the pre-Hartnell Doctor reveal in the middle of the three series run. What we see now with Flux is a condensed version of his plan for series 13. The story arc is likely to be extended / concluded in the pen-/ultimate specials. There is nothing that contradicts his claim of having a "3 seasons and out"-plan with Jody Whitaker.
4. I personally found series 13 neither confusing nor bloated. I enjoyed the parallel story telling very much, but I can understand that it's not everyone's cup of tea. Especially those fans, that had a huge dislike for the Timeless Child reveal from series 12 are likely to be very disappointed.
1. So what? He wants a female doctor, big deal.
2. He's the writer, not the fans
3. No evidence to suggest this "5 year plan" ever existed because Chibnall or anyone else who works with him on doctor who has ever said anything like that
@@fivish Average time spent watching broadcast TV has taken a huge drop for years. In the last decade alone the number of minutes in the UK has been halved in the age group 4-45. I myself am nearing age 50 rapidly and I haven't turned on the telly for the last decade. I, like many others, watch Doctor Who on some kind of streaming service. Doctor Who is an international hit, much more so than in the classic era. The budget for each season has been increasing due to the fact that the franchise rakes in tons of money. You may not like the current incarnation, which is fair enough, but Doctor Who is far from dying.
@@zaphod2073 It *was* an international sensation. As an American fan I can say that, at least in the states, Doctor Who’s media presence has evaporated off of much of the popular and even pop culture spaces. This has been happening since Capaldi, and the quality of the show isn’t necessarily a foolproof deterrent.
A show can die in two ways: From the outside and from within.
The show already died from within in the 80s, when the BBC pulled the plug even though public support was still relatively high.
Right now, or at least before Series 12, the BBC seems to be very supportive of the show, but the audience is less so. Big budgets can only get you so far when, and I’m speaking hyperbolically, nobody watches it.
If you have any doubts about the state of the show, the BBC just surrendered total creative control to Bad Wolf for the foreseeable future. That doesn’t appear to be the decision of an organization with total confidence in their property.
@@mrdr0161 except this doctor sucked
Personally, I think that if you cut characters who, in my opinion, add very little to the story overall like Dan, Diane, Vinder, Bel and The Grand Serpent, it really wouldn't take much effort to write them out, as well the Ravagers, who felt a bit too forced as villains, although they would likely be more difficult to remove, and focus on the Lupari, Sontarans, Weeping Angels and Division, then Flux may have worked.
Instead it was overstuffed with too much time wasting on new characters who ultimately had little effect on the plot rather than trying to wrap up the story of the Timeless Child and Division, which is what I, at least, was there for and even at the end they've started setting up a new villain even though Whittaker has 3 episodes left of her whole run.
Cutting characters out if changes were imposed during production isn't that simple. Contracts will have been signed, scenes filmed, etc.
@@BRAWGWill Then they shouldn't have added that many characters in the first place.
@@user-il3tx7nq2k Not an issue if the original duration allowed
@@BRAWGWill yeah and I really enjoy bel and vinder's screen presence. To be honest except for joseph williamson and the little kid from the angel episode I felt all the characters compelling. I get that the plot is a mess, but I can forgive that
In the end, for me the six-parter felt like an old game my friends and I used play when we were bored. Somebody would start writing a story but could only do one line. Then he would hand it off to the next person, who would either pick up on the first story or go in some completely different direction, but only using one line. Then it would go to the next person... and so on and so on so that at the end, the finished story would be one giant jumble of confusion that barely made sense. Except that in this case, it is Chibnall himself who is doing all the writing. He writes one scene and then a completely different scene, then writes in a character who has nothing to do the previous two scenes, then goes in a different direction again, then add two more characters, then brings in a villian... and so on and so on until at the end of the story, it is one giant jumble of confusion.
Sapphire and Steel already did the “Time and Space as two conflicting forces” very well. It felt like Chibnall was trying to replicate some of their plot points into Doctor Who without trying to fit it in with the rules of the universe that Doctor Who operates in
Huh... I'd never heard of that series. I might have to see if I can check that out to see how it handles things, because time vs space as opposing forces is just such a weird concept.
@@EmeralBookwise Agreed, especially as there's a strong case to be made that Time is an emergent property related to the entropy (decay) of matter, not an independent entity. If there are no material things (particles, planets, people) that can experience Time, or no spatial events that time can be measured against, Time may as well not exist... and probably doesn't.
@@ftumschk: indeed.... although I sorta feel like maybe that's the point being driven at. Time in this story is being presented as a destructive force, which sort of fits the entropy definition.
Where it seems to fall apart, however, is in "space" supposedly being the opposing forces. Everything we actually see them doing seems to not be about destroying space itself, but rather the matter occupying it.
Whatever you want to call that which opposes time, I feel like maybe the root conflict is something more relatable being dressed up in pseudo science . It's order/chaos, creation/destruction, stagnation/change.
"Time" is said to be caged by "space", it is imposed upon, forced to confirm, but it still wears away at its oppressor thus creating entropy... or at least that's the best I can try to make sense of any of it.
@@EmeralBookwise warning: Sapphire & Steel makes the pacing of Hartnell-era Doctor Who look like the final episode of The Flux by comparison, and it's trying to do heady Big Idea™ Jorge Luis Borges-style scifi with a '70s BBC budget and special effects. It can be a very thought-provoking watch-but it can also be a very boring watch; it's highly dependent on what the viewer brings to it, IMHO.
@@natbarmore: well, I can at least say that budget alone won't scare me off. I'm an old school sci-fi fan that grew up on stuff like classic Doctor Who and Blake's Seven.
As someone brought up in a review I've seen (can't remember which), great set up would have been seeing the work of the Division throughout series 11 or 12. Maybe the villian of the Rosa episode was a member of the Division, etc. Etc. Have instances where it's ominously creepy how efficient they are in completely upheaving whole societies and historical events.
I agree, just like with the silence and the crack in the universe.
They just go off at the end like nothing happened, but most of the universe was destroyed?? What are they going out to see? The destruction? This season took Earth-centrism to a ridiculous level.
In the first episode when Azure was still in her Human form, what was that alarm beacon thingy that they destroyed all about? Why did they pretend to ignore it?
Oops, I meant "pretend to not hear it" because they DID ignore it.
Yeah it's just completely forgotten about. I was enjoying her as a human and her dynamic with the man but it seems she was literally just introduced that way for shock value
Also have to remember John bishop tested positive for COVID in the first weeks and production was stopped for two weeks
I think the series itself was always 6 episodes. The 8 episodes was referring to the special too, but remember this production still did 8 episodes, as they filmed 2 specials, the new years one and the spring one.
Best accidental companion for series 13 is Prof. Jericho, I was sad when he couldn’t escape the Sontaran ship.
The series gave us way too many plot lines and characters but not enough time to explain them and to tie them up. One episode wouldn't even help that. It feels like they had to pivot the story slightly due to how the Timeless Children twist went over and thus we get a story about the Doctor having a single-minded focus on her memories and The Division while we get plot characters and a universe altering event that the Doctor doesn't really care about too much as she's focused on her memories more.
Is nobody else frustrated by the ep 1 - ep 2 jump where they were basically just like "they magically survived" with a very unsatisfactory explanation?
The reason I think The Timeless Child MUST be actively retconned, is mainly that it takes away too much without adding in anything of benefit, but also the more meta reason that it impacts OUR story of the Doctor. Think about it, even if its never refed again in the show, any and every attempt to explain the Doctor, official and unofficial, including fan wikis, *must* devote space to detailing it in order to be complete! This is far more disruptive than the 'half human" line its often compared to (besides, there was an almost decade long break for that to be forgotten, no such break in production here). And if its never brought up again, then whats the point?
Also, on a more subjective note, the notion that there are literally thousands of unknown Doctors wandering through space and time (mostly on Division missions, I guess, but not all), *in the same TARDIS no less*...just really bugs me. I hate, hate, HAAATE that idea, and I'm honestly not sure I can really articulate why, it just really rubs me the wrong way. Even if TC is mentioned, I know we'll never see any of them, unless a future showrunner uses it to just Stunt Cast Famous Actor for a couple of eps...Ugh, I just really personally detest that happening, even if it's an actor I like!
So, those are my rational AND irrational reasons for wanting TTC actively retconned! Agree or disagree?
The only reason for the timeless child is because they thought Doctor Who was too white and a classic series had too many males. How do we fix this problematic show? Erase the first doctor's past and replace him with a woman of color. The timeless child was just so Doctor Who could break the glass ceiling and stick it to male fans. At the same time hit two diversity checkboxes to get PC points on Twitter. At this point even a redcon is not going to get most of the Doctor Who fans back. They tried to replace the old fans with new ones and I don't think it's working.
Strongly disagree because the show then becomes a dog chasing it's tail and that is what kills franchises (Moffat came up with the best possible solution with Hell Bent and even that has its problems).
I'll grant you it's not the same thing as the TV movie cause of the gap but look at the Master post Missy, that was a season ago and most of is thought cause it was a different showrunner it doesn't matter.
How do we explain the Dr unofficialy and officially?
It CAN literally be as simple as the next Dr just declaring they're a Timelord from Gallifrey and leave it at that (she technically still is if you infer it as she's the first Timelord and was raised on Gallifrey). I don't care what's written on the wiki, you know what else is written there? Jar Jar is canon. Nothing on a wiki matters.
The Doctors running around... It doesn't matter. Sorry but Dr Who as a coherent whole universe doesn't work. Treating as such just leaves headaches.
@@geraldvance7925 How do you KNOW that's why they did this?
Would it honestly have improved things if the pre-hartnell doctors had all been white and male?
@@thevacuumofcomments2946 William Hartnell has been the first doctor for the last 50 years.. ever since 2016 a lot of franchises got on this whole diversity inclusion bandwagon and they started to deconstruct characters and franchises. Doctor Who was one of those franchises. I know this is the truth because I was told by younger new Doctor Who fans that Doctor Who was too white. The BBC has had an issue with straight white males for the last 4 years. People have been very vocal about that and you see it in the material they produce. The timeless child was a tool to make Doctor Who no longer a white male and bake him a black female. The timeless child also ruins the timelords gallifrey and the doctor's origin story. As far as I'm concerned William Hartnell is the first doctor. No BBC feminist committee or a millennial SJW on Twitter is going to tell me otherwise. I've been watching Doctor Who since 1975. I could tell the changes that were made lately were not made to benefit Doctor Who they're in made as a social political statement at the expense of the franchise. Star Wars and Star Trek went down the same road and are suffering the same fate. People from the BBC called me a misogynist or a Nazi because I thought the doctors character should be left alone and they should have a spin-off story bringing back Ramana or the Rani which would have made more sense and would have made more fans happy. Instead they wanted to stick it to male fans... Doctor Who lost a large chunk of its fan base and they're not coming back. I hope the ginger swapping and the virtue signaling was worth it.
@Tom Meehan news flash! Doctor Who had diversity way before 2016. Doctor Who had female timelords back in the '80s. They had black people in Doctor Who back in the 1960s. But if you talk to a lot of SJW millennials they will tell you that Doctor Who was only for straight white males and it's problematic. Taking the doctor who is a male character and switching genders because of 'diversity'did not work. It was all a big virtue signal and everyone saw through it. In my opinion all of you guys who are screaming that there's not enough diversity everywhere are just a bunch of people who are racist against white males or straight people. I don't have a problem with diversity. I have a problem with people taking male characters and make them female just to deconstruct men. Same thing with race swapping. It's lazy and it's pandering and most people don't want to shoehorned in their escapeism. What are you talking about on my profile? I don't know what you're talking about. Who is this POS you were talking about that's on my profile? Are you talking about me? That's my point you virtue signaling SJWs are a bunch of hypocrites. You don't even know me and you see my face and you calling me a POS... No my friend you're the POS. People like you killed Doctor Who with your virtue signaling and your pandering to 5% of the audience.. fake SJWs like yourself killed Doctor Who and drove away the fan base. I hope that puts a smile on your face.
Honestly, I think even if the we had more episodes it wouldn’t have made such a difference. I doubt we would get a proper answer for anything that happened this season. I’m just really upset about the fact that timeless child story did happen and i am curious how RTD is going to play with that story-if he will.
I wondered that too. And if the new Doctor (possibly Jo) wakes up and it turns out the whole Timeless Child detour has been a regeneration hallucination, will the fans mind too much?
The thing with the episode count assumes that the extra special we are getting in spring isnt counted as one of the 8, it very much could be.
I think.
The fact that some fans think this is good Doctor Who is a testament to how far the quality of DW has fallen. I’m not trying to be a hater and I like some contributions if the Chibnall era. But can you really say to yourself that anything comes close in quality compared to Empty Child, Satan Pit, Family of blood, Blink, silence in the library, Amy’s choice, god complex, orient express, heaven sent?? Don’t kid yourself. This is not good Dr Who. Sorry to be negative. I hope the specials give Jodie some good material to work with. Roll on the 60th.
Youre basically insulting people for liking it
@@mrdr0161 That's not my intention, but I think some people are so desperate for quality DW they've been bending over backwards to say The Flux is good with wild head canons to gloss over gaping plot holes and inconsistencies. I was just saying in my opinion, despite liking some Chibnall stuff, we should remember what good DW actually looks like and it certainly isn't a series where half the cast is redundant to the plot.
@Tom Meehan Obviously art is subjective, if some people genuinely enjoy this era I don’t think they’re dumb because they don’t have the same opinion as me. I’m actually jealous of those people. I wish I could enjoy it too. I was just saying to those who bend over backwards to rationalise that The Flux is good should keep in mind the widely accepted quality of incumbent eras.
Have you ever thought that Broad church was just a shot in the dark, or a broken clock being right at least twice.
Idk, I feel like if he was allowed a seventh slot, he would have made even more mysteries and characters
I enjoyed individual beats in each episode but over all it didn't work.
My feeling with Diane is Dan was supposed to play a bigger part and it would have been clear she was a hostage to effect him. But as it is it makes no sense.
That's exactly how I felt about Flux too. I could definitely enjoy it on a moment-to-moment basis, and I can't act like I didn't enjoy watching it, but the whole structure of the thing falls apart the second you start thinking hard about it
the "8 episode" quote was including the Easter special... Jodie's final special had not been announced yet but the second special had. So 6 episodes for the main season and 2 for the specials... that's how he got 8 out of that...
My biggest problem is how the slowly disintegrating village seemed to just fall off the story once the episode stopped. Yaz and Dan are out in the 1906 world suddenly. All the creepy village by itself in the cosmos stuff gone and forgotten.
I hated that it was all questions and like no answers. I just binged it and kept going onto the next episode like surely they'll explain in the next episode or have a big reveal and never got it
When I used to work in the corporate world we had a saying, "set your expectations low and you will rarely be disappointed." Unfortunately, based on Broadchurch my expectations were high for the Chibnall era. When Flux was announced I thought this was going to work because it was a single story like Broadchurch. Instead we got what the Flux. I hope the production pressures do not indicate that the BBC is trying to kill Doctor Who again. They did just that during the JNT era in order to cancel the show in 1989.
I absolutely understand all your points. I enjoyed the series, but only because I was trying not to think about it too deeply. I agree that it was chaotic and we certainly didn't get answers to a lot of things.
I think a more impactful final scene with the watch would be the Doctor realizing that her obsession with the memories was harming her relationship with Yaz. I actually thought that's what they were going with on my first watch.
Remember there are three specials airing next year, the new year’s special, the spring/easter special and the centenary special. I believe the first two specials were filmed in the same production block as Flux, bumping it up to 8 overall episodes. So I don’t think they necessarily lost an episode during production.
10:05 "Why did it wipe out Azure and Swarm?"
Honestly, by this point, I was happy for any deus ex machina to come in and do exactly that, because the way those two were set up, there was no way we were getting rid of them without one of those. I have many of the same questions about this entire series, but the one thing that really stands out above all else is that I found Swarm and Azure to be two of the least compelling villains the show has ever produced. They're depicted as basically omnipotent except when the plot hands them the Idiot Ball, and omnipotent direct antagonists are just not interesting. This descended into "only the writers can save them now" really quickly and really predictably. I wanted those two gone from the second I first saw them. Not in a "love to hate this smug villain" way (that was maybe the one thing that actually worked about the Grand Serpent - that's how you portray a character I want to see get what's coming to them), but in a "if I never see you again, it will be too soon" kind of way. "Get out of this story" is not a sentiment I should have towards the main villain at the start of episode 1 of 6.
'Chibnall sucks - it can't be that easy.' Occam's Razor begs to differ.
I realized Chris Chibnall was a lost cause the moment he followed one of DW's best cliffhangers in years (i.e. the Doctor's transformation into a Weeping Angel) with the visual equivalent of a deflating balloon.
The Doctor puts her hands down. SHE JUST PUTS HER HANDS DOWN.
YOU FUCKING FAIL, CHIBNALL.
I don't know if anyone explained it in the comments. Chibnall was asked late into production if he would add episodes to 2022. Instead of making more, he simply extended Flux into 2022, meaning the original run of it doesn't have an ending. That is what I got from his interviews
I don’t think he did extend flux into 2022 given The Vanquishers aired in 2021 and the three extra specials; Eve of the Daleks, Legend of the Sea Devils and The Power of the Doctor have nothing to do with The Flux at all. 👍🏻
The shortening of the schedule is a fair point. *But the bad planning is just another consequence of the showrunner doing a poor job* (which is _not_ the same as being as being a poor showrunner). You have been ( *overly* ) generous since the beginning of this showrunner/actor combo. *Agendas?* Go ahead. But at least let us see it sold well. This is just bad, even if we would like to explain it.
Griffith and Riefenstahl works and agendas *_turn our stomachs_* , but they were great artists. This is just tomorrows recycling.
Chibnall is both a show runner who did a poor job and a poor showrunner though.
Tldr version: Chibnall had no idea how to write sci-fi.
8 episodes have been shot. Flux, the New Year’s special and the Easter special. No missing episode.
@Tom Meehan Sure, but the thing up for debate is whether or not Flux had an episode cut during production. Since the Easter special was shot at the same time as Flux and the New Year special… that’s the eight episodes they intended to film. There’s plenty of reasons why Flux was awful without lumping it entirely on Chibnall, I just think this last minute episode switch up conspiracy is a reach.
I enjoyed this series, but I had quite a few problems (especially by the end) that I don’t think were tied up and resolved very well. So I agree with a lot of your points here.
I will defend one point you made though. The Rogue Angel describes Claire as her ‘sanctuary’. It’s only there because the other Angels are hunting it. When they change their plan to take the Doctor instead, there’s no reason to live in Claire’s mind anymore, because it’s no longer being pursued. I don’t think that’s a question that needs answering because it’s very self-explanatory based on the established concept.
I'm very conflicted about Flux. I genuinely had fun watching it, and there were lots of things I liked. But I was so confused the entire time I watched it. This is kind of like if The Wedding of River Song was stretched into 6 episodes, in terms of how incoherent it was. It felt like there were 10-12 episodes worth of ideas that were crammed into just 6 episodes. Very strange.
This was a really great video that injects some much-needed nuance into the conversation. Also, it shows a lot of maturity that a lot of people in the fan base lack. Thank you.
One year later I couldn't tell you what in the heck happened in Flux. I enjoyed watching it with friends at the time. We had some discussion like, 'was the universe just mostly destroyed and was that fixed?' I'm just drawing a blank.
So far the best review I've heard of why flux didn't work. It was methodical, and took things into consideration I hadn't thought about. Heard too many jerks saying "cause chibnal sucks!", or "cause diversity doesn't work!". This review actually puts some brains behind it.
I'm so subscribing to your channel!
Sorry I missed the premier. You get a thumbs up and comment interaction from me for your hard work. Thanks again madam.
Surely if they lost an episode midway through production, then the important content of that episode was either:
1. put into OUT, SOTF, and TV, in which case none of the answers to any of our questions were ever written at all and everything Chibnall thought we absolutely needed was put on the screen.
or 2. omitted entirely, in which case Chibnall had the required materials to complete his story but decided not to rework them and integrate them into the second block of filming.
Surely the resolutions to the plot threads of the series weren't cut for time? With all the filler of OUT and SOTF that did nothing to progress the plot, surely there weren't ever answers that were abandoned in favour of that?
yea but we had fundamental filmmaking blunders even before this season (writing mostly). the missing episode only contributed to the regression that was already happening.
You raise a good point there with the shooting schedule possibly having ripped into this, however I think that this is an excuse that can only go so far. If it had created, say, 6 or 7 holes in the story, then it could have been somewhat understandable. However, we're dealing with something like 2892 holes, and they all can't be down to scenes that had to be scrapped or an actor not being available for a shooting day. Besides, assuming that they really didn't learn of the episode cut until after the first production block, it didn't stop Chibnall to keep introducing *even more* tangents in those final two episodes. Why cling to subplots like UNIT and the Grand Serpent instead of just focusing on what you already have, especially when said elements don't amount to much in the first place? Anyway, considering how even "The Halloween Apocalypse" struggled to be coherent (or other Chibnall work outside Doctor Who for that matter), I doubt that 2 or more episodes would have changed much. The pacing would have been more balanced and the editing would have been better, but I'm afraid those two areas would have been the only ones to show improvement. The story itself was ill-conceived and no longer shooting schedule in the world would have made it more coherent or any less baffling. That the ending scene of "Flux" retreads a point that was already explored and dealt with in the previous series finale only confirms how little thought went into the writing. Ah well, tl;dr version of my rambling comment: The assumed tightened shoot didn't truly create problems in the story, it only magnified the ones that were already there.
11 months late, but I think the 8 episode count given might refer to the 6 episodes of Flux we got + Eve of the Daleks + Power of the Doctor
I don't remember where I saw it but I heard at one point that Legend of the Sea Devils wasn't originally planned to happen.
Take that with a pinch of salt though since I'm only vaguely remembering
my wife and i just binge watched season 11 12 and 13 of dr who to catch up and prepare for season 14 soon. we both thought it was great, especially the late episode. the new master actor we both think is great. thought were were only like 1 or 2 average episodes in the bunch. looking forward to the next doctor in a few months.
I still say that if you were going to start from scratch knowing you're only getting 6 episodes, scrap Williamson tunnels (that's just local flavor for Dan's sake), scrap Bel and Vinder and Great Serpent, scrap the weird Diane interlude, but most importantly scrap the Ravagers or Division (preferrably the Ravagers) and keep the Sontarans. A: because of all the stuff that is the story of the Sontarans trying to make hay out of the Flux works the best and is the most relatable/understandable and B: the Ravagers and Division are redundant to each other (if you keep the Ravagers keep them as a one off villain to depict what the hell Division is working against, ie you could just about keep Once Upon Time if you kept its scope localized to that episode and the Ravagers as a one off, defeated in that episode and thus end their narrative there), they have ultimately the same goal and the same means of doing it and C: preferably the Ravagers because they are literally just a whatsit out of nowhere that seems to have no foreshadowing and came off as you said 'that's not how any of this works, it's not how any of this ever worked...'. Whereas you can flesh out Division and even justify Tecteun's motives for bringing the Doctor with them.....
Hi there, first time watching your content. I'm from a group called The Unearthly Podcast. We review new episodes currently on the Tuesday after they air, and yes about half of us had issues already from last season for sure, and this season we were almost in unison with our disappointment, from pace, to wasted characters, to not caring for this Timeless Child story, to a lot of big events and concepts making no sense, and just so many more things. So yes, even if given more time this story was a mess, just a less clustered one with an extra episode. And the semi stand alone episodes were probably the best in the season.
Also whatever happened with the cobweb and the moving door of the TARDIS? Did they ever give an explanation of what that was?
That was a fantastically put together video and I'm glad you're so very open to people having their own opinions. I myself, thoroughly enjoyed Flux, although understand it's flaws. At the end of the day, despite many of it's loose threads and over complication of it's story, Flux made me excited to sit down on a Sunday evening and watch Doctor Who again. Taking it for what it is (as defeatist as that may sound), I had a wonderful time with it! Have a great day Vera!
Some great questions that I've had myself and it's nice to hear them aired.
I did enjoy Flux more than Chibnall's earlier series (which isn't saying much) but that was because of individual pieces - the whole was a mess. I feel sorry for the writers who came up with some solid/great ideas, only for Chibnall to bastardise them into this 'single story' that isn't really a single story. Then Chibnall chucks all those fan favourites into the mix, to distract and cover up the lack of a cohesive plot.
The pandemic and episode cutdown certainly played it's part, however that isn't a valid excuse IMO. There was plenty of stuff that could have been excised as they played no significant part. As you say, filming hadn't finished which means things can be rewritten. Even with less episodes, he still chose to keep two specials tied in to filming with the six episodes (not counting the centenary special), instead of cutting one special and putting out more series episodes. That was 100% his choice from what I've read.
Hey, at least we didn't get a season finale containing half an hour of pure exposition explaining the main thread of the series. That's something. :-)
I'm not sure that the math works out. If you're counting the specials, then Chibnall will actually have nine episodes by the end of this. The six episodes of Flux, plus the New Year's Dalek special, and the two specials next year, including the BBC centenary special.
I like how they actually worked social distancing into the script during the scene where Bel sees Azure "rescuing" people with Passenger.
Chibnall had years to work on season 1 of Broadchurch, and even then it wasn't that great. The acting was fantastic but the actual storyline was mediocre at best. The further diminished writing quality of seasons 2 & 3 showed conclusively that Chibnall is completely incapable of working to a deadline. That's why he includes a deadline/countdown (or Time itself, in the case of Flux) in so much of his work, because it is his own personal greatest adversary.
My dog's food bowl makes more sense than Series 13. BAAAAD Writing
27:43
I know its unrelated but this is my exact problem with Rey in The Rise of Skywalker.
They did the same thing again but worse and it didn't need to be done.
You present many good questions many of which could be good topics for future episodes.
Question: regardless of how we feel about the story lines chosen, they were still chosen. So how many extra episodes (pre special) would you have given them to give these plots the appropriate room to breathe?
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Episode 1-4 = great, including Chibnall’s best who work
Episode 5-6 - everything falls apart but at least it’s not boring.
Thumbnail tells you the main problem. It’s the opposite of too many cooks. Too many ingredients with only one chef and he isn’t exactly Gordon Ramsay
I think you hit the nail there. Chibnall tried to hard to be Moffat with all the twists and angles, but wasn't able to pull it off. And it is somewhat obvious that there was nobody to point out the flaws with this entire sereies, because there are so many of them. Yes, it was entertaining and it was his best work on Dr. Who, but that tells you a lot about his previous work, does it not?
My main criticism of Vanquishers is that the things that happen specifically in that episode aren't set up. The Sontaran conquest of Earth, the using humans to determine the location of the flux event, the smuggling operatives into said project, Kat Stewart being the head of the human resistance, stuff like that. If they got news that they were limited to six episodes came after they had already filmed the pointless fluff that is Yaz and Co. in the early 20th century, then that means they were stuck with that content and unable to have Kat Stewart fight off a Sontaran invasion, and get the intel she needs for the finale to work, and the opportunity to be able to place a mole there. Instead, we get mindless info dumps and "chocolate".
Chibnall never tried to develop any of the characters. He could have dropped some of the story lines midstream if he would have just developed a few of the characters in the end.
As far as developing characters, he's pretty bad with writing companions, and you would think writing a solid companion would be on page one of the Doctor Who Writing Handbook. When I think of Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy and Rory and so one, I almost feel like they are friends. I know their personalities, I know their faults, I know their strengths. Heck, I know much more about Ian and Barbara, Ace or Tegan Jovanka then I will ever know Yaz, Ryan, Graham or Dan.
Chibnall isn't writing Doctor Who, he's writing a bad versión of Star Wars.
@Tom Meehan Me too, although I admit that I have not yet entered into the world of audio chapters (excuse me for some grammar mistake, my English is not very good)
@Tom Meehan uff, thanks n.n
I disagree it felt more like the finale of Star Trek TNG when Picard was split into 3 across time, battling an anomaly that would destroy the universe orchestrated by an omnipotent being in the form of Q finishing with a threat from that same being. 😀 TBH once we got to "Division" I was surprised not to see the universe on the back of four elephants stood on the back of a giant turtle, as part of the Marvelous multi-turtleverse!
How To Make Bad Outcomes Extremely impossible
1. Invent time machine.
2. Travel to 22nd century.
3. Invent a machine that can change probability to make probability certain that Bad Outcomes are Extremely impossible Forever.
12 minutes into the video I had a headache. I skipped series 13 and now I'm glad I did. Jesus....mess was polite.
is it just me or did the timeless child had the same potential of The Hybrid but it didn't have the same impact?
Jodie dies and Capaldi wakes up, brushes himself off and gets on with a good episode of Who.... Oh if only...
I didn't understand what flex going on
oooooh it's so validating to have someone ask all my same questions
I just finished getting caught up with doctor who after not watching it for a few years and I can’t fully express have much my brain just turned to mush watching these 6 episodes in one sitting
Okay, now having seen the review I can definitely agree that Covid probably really impacted the quality of the story. A lot of my problems came from how incredibly lore-heavy it was, but having a little more breathing room definitely could have helped with that.
I do think that one thing that wouldn't have changed is how confusing the whole "time at war with space" nonsense was. Just,,, what?? Why??? They could have so easily gone "oh, here are two bad guys using an anti-matter weapon to destroy the universe because of their religion," instead of making so incredibly confusing. I really liked the visual designs of the Flux ppl (who's names I never actually caught). They were cool villains. But I had no idea what on earth they were trying to accomplish or where they came from for most of the series.
Tecteun is also kind of disappointing. She had so much potential- the doctor's mother who is actually evil and tries to get the doctor to join her?? That I really like. What I don't like is the where tf has she been all this time, what even is division, oh and how does the fugitive doctor even exist? Does the Doctor not have memories of growing up as a child? Was the fugative doctor from before the 1st Doctor?
My other problems, such as who or what is the Grand Serpent, Vincent and Bel, and what was going with Diane could all have been solved by more episodes, although I'm not entirely sure just one more would have been enough.
Also, now that we've had a second special, doesn't that mean that we had the full number of episodes?
So strange. I agree that it seems they had to lose an episode of Flux *mid-production* ...but they also wrapped Jodie's final episode just short of a year before it's due to broadcast. For comparison, Twice Upon a Time was still being adjusted hours before transition.
Some very peculiar scheduling here. I don't think they ever managed to adjust to Covid. Although the next special looks like its set to be one location, small cast, simple shoot of repeated shots. _That's_ how you write in Covid. Looks great, can't wait for that. Still concerned.
Hopefully at the end of this, the entire universe will be rebooted and we'll start with a new doctor in a new universe and no history baggage. RT can start from scratch
I think the thing with the watch was that there wasn't enough time left in the episode to go through its contents. While it was dumb how there was no payoff in the moment, it's not like she destroyed the thing and undid the whole journey. She's just putting it aside for a while to pick up later, because we know the Tardis will just give it back when she asks for it.
I really enjoyed the Sontarans yelling "SONTAR!.... HA!!!!" Me and my friends took shots everytime they said it. We didn't come very far that day...
We will probably never know how much context and explanation was left on the cutting room floor. We got the action, some great acting and some interesting ideas but contained in a hot mess. Cutting entire threads and characters is very difficult to do in post production cutting individual scenes that drastically reduce the payoff of these threads is probably what happened.
I thought the Grand Serpent and Swarm were the same entity. They wear similarly distinguished clothing and their personalities are basically the same. They even wear the same goddam shoulder pads. But no? They're two different people?? I thought the grand serpent was the entity and the past and swarm was the future version and there would be an event somewhere in between where they would become the other.
Interesting idea. There's literally nothing in the show to directly support it though.
In Survivors Of The Flux, Tecteun says that the Weeping Angel was captured after the Doctor was turned into an Angel. There’s a bit she shows her the hologram of it as well. It should have been demonstrated better in the episode especially because the idea of that Angel going through all of that to escape only to be captured and imprisoned like it was nothing. It’s messy certainly but it does get an explanation.
I feel bad for Jodie-I really feel she could have acted anything she was given. Under a better writer, I think her run could have been something like MacGyver in Space.
Yep, lots of unanswered questions. However, as for why Diana was spared, I think she mentions to Vinder in the last episode that she was considered insignificant (or something) and hence they didn't both killing her. (And yes, I realise that that, in itself, doesn't make much sense!).
Speaking of losing enthusiasm... my wife and I got halfway through and stopped. 6 months later, following the announcement of the casting of the 14th Doctor we thought we should maybe finish it just in case the events are going to be referenced going forward.
We see that Claire’s angel was captured in episode 5 tectahun shows an image of it in custody
Oh right! I thought, they addressed that. Thanks!
Yeah I caught that during the edit but it still leaves me wondering “how did this impact Claire?”
@@CouncilofGeeks it didn't claire was left behind because she served her purpose.this literally happens with most characters.we dont get the see their reaction to things.I like village but it was just like any other chibbs story in that departement.
I liked it but I was left somewhat confused at the end. I still don't know why the great serpent was relevant to the plot
So Flux finally aired in Germany, and I have to say I had really low expectations going into this. Instead of listing everything bad, here are a few things I liked about this series:
-I absolutely loved the design of the Ravengers
-The historic characters were interesting and made me wanna find out more about them
-Doggo
-The Sheffield/Liverpool banter was quite entertaining
-The Sontorans wanting to conquer earth because of horses was one of the best DW humor bits I've seen in years
-Casual disability representation
-New darker doctor costume
-The whole weeping angels episode tbh, I loved the new ideas and especially the visual ideas
-The doctor teaming up with herself
-The last scene were the Doctor dropped the watch into the Tardis to the 9th Doctor's theme, because it felt like dropping the timeless child ark into nothingness for good
I just think Chibnall is just incapable of crafting a plot in his current state, to the extent I can't fully believe he's the same person that wrote Broadchurch or his past episodes of Who. Were there ghost writers translating his ideas? Were the producers and previous showrunners having to hold his hand until he constructed something coherent? How could someone be competent enough to be able to create those plots, but then be so utterly incapable of even the basics of storytelling in this current situation? There must be some kind of explanation right? An external factor helping him in the past that isn't there now? Or something new that's hindering his ability to write?
I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but am I the only one having a really hard time wrapping my head around this massive change in the quality of his output? Can someone smarter than me compare the before and after and figure out what the hell happened?
I can fully believe he’s the same man who wrote Broadchurch because that still has series 2 and 3.
@@c17sam90 Say what you will about Broadchurch's quality, but it was at the very least competent.
@@inionanbas615 I don’t know about those last 2 series. When you had teens distributing pornography from usb sticks not using the internet and the incredibly contrived story with the judge like having fainting fits in the court it becomes camp and funny very very fast
I'd say Chibnall might be a bit like George Lucas. He has some good ideas and can do a decent draft script, but needs someone more talented to go over it and actually make it all work.
@@Here_is_Waldo the thing is with Lucas is there is logic even in his worst scripts because as a director he tells the story visually and gets very involved in the editing
Another question I had since War of the Sontarans that’s been bugging me was why and how did Vinder show up in Atropos??
He was teleported there like Yaz was
I loved Bel and Vinder. I hope they get a spinoff (if they're going to be doing some spinoffs). They are really the only part of this series I enjoyed.
the shooting block stuff really explains why the best episodes are 1,2 and 4 then