Grover's mad quest to kill God
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Credit to MrRagtimeMoneybags on reddit for the first half of the video. I do not know who wrote the latter half.
www.reddit.com...
Music:
• Haus Arafna || Poison
• Portal Soundtrack - Se...
By making it his mission to kill God, to the point of acquiring a weapon and smuggling it to the Pearly Gates, Grover shows disdain to the concept of divinity and has already killed Him on his mind.
By steeling himself enough to go up the Stairway to Heaven not once, but SEVERAL times, no matter how infinitely great or infinitesimally small were the steps he had to take, and ending it by making Kermit take the entire brunt of his sins, Grover has outwilled God.
By defying the all-binding, all-blinding light of He Who Comes From Above with the sheer strength of his purpose, demanding that He showed Himself before him, Grover had defeated God -- The very concept of God purpose-wise.
Three times had he killed The Father, both in mind, body and spirit. All without firing a single bullet. He had already shown that The Holy Trinity was below him, but Grover still groveled on his spite and foolishness to prove a point, that he would kill God by means as mundane and low as the treason of His own children. The rejection of the gift of Life, the sin against brethren and the audacity to challenge His judgement of life and death: A single tool of murder, the Glock.
Little did Grover know, however, that God has already shown enough mercy. As He once did with Lucifer, his rebellious legion of angels and with several iterations of Mankind, He'd reciprocate his wicked, unfathomable purpose. And so, God broke Grover beyond what anyone would expect.
He broke Grover's purpose by putting the Damocles above his head, "rewarding" him with power over everything and promptly letting it crush his murderous intent. He broke Grover's body by weighing his mortality against the infinity of the sins of His creation on an endless, relentless flight of stairs. Finally, He broke Grover's mind by making him experience his insignificance when compared to the entire span of Creation, so that when Time and Space have no more meaning than a speck of dust, his mortal brain would wither.
Three times had He killed The Muppet by condemning him to sempiternal Death, unending Failure and overwhelming Oblivion. Grover would forever experience everyone's pains and sins, the existence and decay of everything, and everywhere and everywhen that which has been, that is and forever will be. This was God's will. This was Grover's ultimate fall.
this is fantastic 💀
Holy shit, this goes hard
The perfect comment doesnt ex
You ever consider becoming a writer?
this perfectly encapsulates the very soul of the original text. I commend you, good sir.
The delivery of the line "But none of it deters Grover. He brought the Glock with him," is simultaneously one of the most hilarious and badass lines I've ever heard.
"He would be the Muppet to kill God," is up there too.
He only had one to defend himself from Elmo, to be fair. That, and if the bastards who robbed Hooper's ever came back for more...
"Now who wants the first spanking?" -Hoss Delgado
I love how it just assumes we know. Not he brought any ol glock with him. He brought THE Glock with him. (THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE AND CHEERING FROM THE AUDIENCE.)
@striker8961
Brilliant 👏 🤧
I love how Grover actually commiting 1,048,376 sins but getting 1,048,576 steps implies that either God or Kermit threw in an extra 200 steps just to fuck with him
Plot twist: Grover actually decided to climb Kermit's staircase instead of his own...which is why Kermit was at the top! :O
I Believe that the 200 were added for Grover skipping a step as in he tried to cheat death and was punished for it.
he committed 200 sins on his way up
He wanted his sins to be a power of 2 so he did
not all sin is equal
i like how grover managed to commit 200 more sins in his initial journey to the top
Oh my gosh, someone brought up the difference and said, "Wow they really just added those steps to mess with him" but I had not inkling that it may be because he sinned that many times more.
@@xtfgrw another funny interpretation. Kermit said the total and then 30 seconds later narrator says its about 200 less. Just a joke on the fact that we already knew the exact amount so theres no point in saying the wrong estimate.
*OR" my preferred interpretation. That kermit is in fact an embodiment of god. There to watch him struggle from the very beggining. That climbing the stairs wasn't necessary to kill god if only grover had realized before his journey. And that as you said, grover had added 200 steps of his own through this whole escapade through the sins he commits in pugatory. But being that all instances of time had already occurred kermit tells him exactly how it will end before it began and grover is still cluessless blinded by rage. And that in grover's quest to kill god he made it harder on himself as is the very nature of taking on an impossible task. God won't let grover kill himself, grover is trapped in an endless eternity.
There is a version of Grover who kills himself because he thinks he is too immoral
@@christopherthompson5400"kermit is an embodiment of god"
kermit at the beginning: "you think yours is long, wait till youve seen mine" i dont like the implications here
@fravonzonbonn I on the other hand really like the implication there
“Grover saw the birth of the universe, and he saw the heat death. And he could not tell the difference”.
No way a shitpost delivers one of the hardest lines I’ve heard
legit dont get the line and why everybody is saying "its so well-written!"
@@Yu-Gi-Oh36508 i can attempt to explain:
imagine, if you will, the birth of the universe as the "big bang". a massive explosion of so many energies, and so much of them, and in its terrifying wake, it leaves life.
the heat-death of the universe is expected to be just as big a bang, but will leave no life in its wake-- but from far, far away, (let's say a Divine Creator's point of view), the life that first bang creates is so much smaller than something all-powerful, all-seeing, and all-knowing. it's so small, he can't see it.
he can only see the explosions, the chaos, not what it will leave when the explosion has ended.
Just watch _history of the entire world, I guess_ looped on repeat long enough for Your mind to start blending the beginning & the end in Your perception.
You will get it eventually ;)
@@basedokadaizoAnother take: the birth and the death of the universe are just the same thing. The beginning is the end. The end is the beginning.
Grover cannot tell if he has witnessed life's birth or life's death.
@@Yu-Gi-Oh36508literally just look up the word entropy
“At this point he wondered if god was that frog he just shoved down the stairs” will never not be the funniest fucking sentence I’ve heard
Adding it to the list. And literally every other line is added to the _other_ list(that one list of insanely raw lines from weird sources)
I offer you an alternative for only if you are a guy:
*"Balls"*
@@hhhhhhhhhhhhhnhhhhhhh
Officer Balls
@@august6760link?
The story shoulda ended there
"He saw the birth of the universe, and he saw the heat death. And he could not tell the difference." is such mind-fuckingly good writing for a shitpost.
This is such a fucking masterpiece
Without a thought I will see everything eternal
Forget that once we were just dust from heavens far
As we were forged, we shall return perhaps someday
I will remember us and wonder who we were
- VNV Nation, "Further"
That final line was devastating.
holy shit, I randomly read this as it was said in the video, gave me a chill
@@Eidako Damn that goes hard
I am in awe of this story. The drama, the growth; a tragic heroes' downfall as he realizes all he ever wanted, wasnt what he ever wanted at all. Truly a saga to rival Gilgamesh of Beowulf, you've outdone yourself Sir.
The Gilgamesh of Beowulf is a pretty good saga, loved that crossover
What does one of vergil's devilarms have to do with muppets?
Grover is for sure the Main protagonist but definitely not the hero
I regret ever forgetting this story
I like how memes went from goofy ms paint doodles and a baby with his fist up to a guy voice acting an existential tale of Grover killing and becoming god
So basically, Grover:
- Commited over a million sins
- Stole a gun
- Snuck his gun into the afterlife
- Climbed up to all 1 million steps to Heaven in under a week
- Was sent back to the bottom of the stairs for doing that thing where you walk up 2 steps at a time because you think you’re cool
- Climbed up to Heaven again
- Threw Kermit into Hell
- Became God
- Still tried to kill God even though now he was God
- Was flung down to Hell by God for trying to kill God after becoming God
Is that right?
He gave him his personal heaven, he forgave him and gave him exactly what he wanted
He then cast him down for wanting more
@@Dante.-sorry, but you gotta see the body to make sure. If God weren't a bitch ass, he'd climb up those stairs instead of doing a Greek fable fake out
I think those are different endings
Basically the plot of "Preacher"
But if Grover had basically attained omnipotence, how was he still fallible?
BertStrip story writers are truly a special kind of Internet creators.
They are able to create wonderful written insane stories, ranging from both comedy and tragedy, while having to use Muppet characters and screenshots as part of the story. Stuff like this genuinely takes talent, and blurs the line between art and s#$tpost.
Thank you, for informing me of the origins of this post. I will now dive into this rabbit hole.
@@EverGreenRiversGood luck. You're going to need it.
“Blurs the line between art and shitpost”
Who says it can’t be both?
You don't have to censor the word "shitpost"
The youtube overlords are master ballbusters but they have SOME and I do mean some limit to their pettiness.
@@highpotencyiron4529 The funny thing is, the reason I censored it actually wasn't because of TH-cam's stupidity, it was because I just didn't feel comfortable writing a curse word. I know that sounds ridiculous, especially since the video I'm praising isn't exactly the cleanest video on the site, and I would only be writing it down instead of actually saying it, but unless it's from a quote or title, writing curse words just doesn't feel right to me. I even tried to thing of other words to substitute the aforementioned word, but after some thinking, the word really was the best one to use in the sentence, so I used a censored version of it.
A moment of silence to everyone who never finds this video
real
Amen
I appreciate that
Got this recommended on TH-cam without being subscribed. Don't worry! Someone will see it!
🙏
The perfect balance of jokes and existentialism. You made me both giggle like a schoolgirl and feel the same emotions as an animal taking its last breath as the jaws of a predator clench its trachea shut. Beautiful.
I thought Grover was going to shoot himself after realizing he became god.
You weren’t the only one. Did grover bring the god gun?
same here
Me too
In a manner of speaking... did he not?
In assuming the mind of God, did Grover not determine the singular way to dispose of Him?
That is to say... did Grover cast himself down to suffer the Eternal Curbstomp to save man from the eternal cycle of apotheosis and deicide?
Let us not so hastily assume Grover's failure. Only in death, can He rise above all.
I really wonder where the story would have went if he chose to do that.
Yeah, this seems like the only voice appropriate for such a classical epic as "Grover steals a gun to kill god".
1:47 "And this time, he remembered to push down Kermit down those stairs". This could imply that Grover had gotten to the top multiple times previously, but got pushed off by Kermit
The fact such a stupid concept had such phenomenal writing goes to show it’s really all in the execution.
Good Lord, I wasn’t expecting such an intricate story.
Now they just gotta get morgan freeman to help Ulysses narrate the damn thing lmao
I liked it primarily because I would be the 666th like🤟
Damn... Stairs Arc is by far the best arc of Groverlord we've seen since at least the Ultra Instinct arc.
Groverlord...lol.
Don't forget Groverlords "Final Solution Arc". The arc with the most consequences that lead him to find god.
@anglosaxiphone8246 I think you meant the 'best decisions' instead of 'most consequences'. 😏
This, not ironically, is a high level of literature. And the voice is incredible
It's about damn time someone made a story about Grover that was in-character
Always knew he was a wrong'un.
the second image implies grover skipped over 200 steps on his first climb, hence being declared a cheater
3:58 Burialgoods stutters (rare 1% occurrence Legendary event)
The narration has such strange wording and tense that it makes me feel like I'm reading translated three times over ancient languages in fragments of a single myth. Like the part where he becomes God and Kermit was God but then when he is thrown down the steps by God, it is confusing and breaks the flow, but it kind of works I guess.
To me, God is omnipresent. God is both Kermit and Grover. Though, at that time Grover still thinks he's a mortal. Therefore, he could still see the difference between him and himself. In a world, where time doesn't exist, there is no past or future, and the present erases both. Existence works the same way. There is no Grover or Kermit, there is only God, for all eternity.
@@thatbloomer5642there is only God and the absence of God. Heaven and Hell.
*SHOW
ME
GAWWWWWD*
Yeah, the odd grammatical items here and there are pretty jarring. Not unlike these comment replies that don't seem to get what you were talking about
@@benzojamin4399 I bet you get a ton of pussy, don't you tiger?
One must imagine Grover happy
Yes
no. Grover is not human like we are, so our philosophy of stoicism does not apply in Grover's case. Grover isn't driven by happiness, Grover is driven by rage and resentment. happiness isn't what Grover is after, he's on a singular mission. and his will to push forward will not cease until that mission is accomplished.
the myth of grover
@@env0xnot gonna lie it’s kinda metal to imagine as a muppet as completely inhuman and driven only by malice, anger and a will to see everything burn
@@env0xanger and rage can only exist within the context of an attempt to attain happiness, whatever definition of happiness that individual assigns. Without this context anger and rage serve no purpose for the individual having that subjective experience and they simply would not exist. They are behaviors dependent upon the causal force of a desire for subjective happiness. Grover believes killing god will make him happy, because he believes it is impossible for him to be happy having not killed god. His conclusion is an attempt to understand his own desire for happiness via process of elimination, if he cannot be happy with god then he can only be happy without him.
2:48
Grover became so gangster he started talking with a Mexican accent.
I came for the hilarious “every step is a sin you committed” line, but god I was not expecting existential dread near the end…
"but none of hit deterred grover. he brought the glock with him."
nearly fucking lost it and choked to death on my drink at work 👍
0:16 big shot chord progression
Why can't I escape the funny man
Ulysses narrating a story about Grover killing God was not what I expected to be the best video of 2023.
If this was replaced with Joshua graham and the courier it would sound like Ulysses explaining a drug trip
"He saw the birth of the universe, and he saw the heat death. And he could not tell the difference."
RAW
I think this video poses an interesting question that I’ve never thought about before, “To an immortal being, does time even exist?” I think that it depends on whether or not the universe resets. An immortal being could count down the seconds to when the sun explodes, but if the universe were to reset, I doubt the being would care to. An immortal being could sit around for someone’s entire lifetime and watch them die, and the being would still be able to live a long enough time to forget that even occurred. That’s what makes us so pathetic I think, our reliance on time. We time out our day to ensure that we make it to work on time or that we have enough time to take the kids to band practice, or when will we expire. We have to waste our precious time doing things we don’t want to do in a life that we did not ask to be thrust into. Let’s hope that if the universe does reset, we do it right next time. I’ll be seeing you again soon.
I think the essence of immortality is immutability. Consider a toilet that, by some freak accident, has been flung into intergalactic space. It's moving at a constant rate, there's nothing around; no lights, no gravitational forces--nothing. Physically speaking, it is impossible to say (based purely on the toilet as an inertial reference frame) whether it's been there for twelve seconds or a million years. It doesn't change at all, so figuring out the change--which is the essence of time--is like dividing by zero. Regardless of the world around it, that toilet exists in a perfect eternal space. I don't think it's possible to be alive and immortal at the same time. Living means to change constantly. Even if you could make yourself functionally undying, your self and the world around you would always be shifting. You'd eventually become something totally dissimilar to how you started, which is the death of the idea of you--what some would call a soul. To live authentically means to accept that flow, come what may.
@@albertskoften1452 I love that and I love you, you smart cookie
My good, you two have some really hard existencial conversations.
@@albertskoften1452I don’t think that changing is exclusive to living thing only tangible thing 😂 so a immortal being would just not be tangeable
@@moosesues8887 What precisely do you mean by "intangible"?
Props on you on the music selection, the sound design is 50% of the reason this video is so great. The other 50% is the script and the other 50% is all the VA
tfw the video is so good that you have 150% of reasons to justify it! :O
I love how the narrator is confused by the fact Grover was able to form the sentence "SHOW ME GOD".
Why do the greatest quotes and story arcs seem to originate from the most insane sh*tposts?
Cocaine
If this was a video game, god would be the final boss, and this music would be his theme.
"Top 5 Games where the main character dies"
There's a interesting implication here. First, you're lead to believe that Kermit was or wasn't god and that Grover has indeed usurped God, 2:27.
Then, all of a sudden he is punished by said God he had usurped to fall for his eternity, which makes me think that "God punishes Grover (...)" is actually Grover punishing himself, it is as close as an attempt of suicide is available for Grover now.
I just think this is a shitpost that wasn’t thought out fully.
@@liamerolduffy7738Yeah, maybe that too, but I think that might have also been Grover’s way of “killing God”
@@smellthel So Grover did it to himself because he’s an idiot. Yeah, that makes more sense.
grover intended to kill god which he technically did by usurping god's power but since grover isn't god his mind can't really handle the omnipotence and gets caught in an infinite loop that he can't get out of. he had the power to do anything, but he evidentially didn't have the will to do anything other than kill god (i.e. himself). over and over for infinity.
The writing on this is actually fucking phenomenal. "He was still thinking like a Mortal, Grover knew."
GRRM would be proud XD.
The second form of humanity is a never ending fractal.
He capture only a glimpse, only a spot of colour traveling in inconsibebla speed, his eyes tortured by the groom of the lights,hands squeezing his globe like lemons until all the liquid of it's content was out, too painful to comprehend the destruction and the birth of the universe over and over again, during this time he couldn't tell if he was screaming or if he was silence, only that he was there.
Then, the lights started get slower, his pain started to feel barable, he was getting tired, tired of his madness, tired of his existence, slowly he started to get sence of himself, his feet touching what semed to be the ground, his nose brephing wath apers to be air, and finally looking into the being he realised what he was testimoning, he didn't care, he felt the metalic cold of the gloc in his hand, he has remembered his mission, to kill God.
-"I was so fulished", he thought, he couldn't kill God, there was no God, only a concept, the amoungamation of what the history have created, He was nothing He was everything, He was there, He was not there.
Before Grover could releashe his anger toward Him in form of the bullet, he first have to create It.
So he carved, with his bared hands though hard stone, he didn't know why, but it felt right, like it supposed to be this way, as his wands started to get broody as he rushed his nails in the craks of the rock, the caotical music of his manic screams and movements ecoee thought the universe, but finally, he finished.
He pointed the gun right through His head, the image in front of him was the culmination of years of history of what the collective consciousness belived to be HIM.
- Any last words you bitch ? , He pointed to His forehead, there was no response, only a small glimpse, - "Well i warned you anyway" -, he lowered the gun and shoot his stomach, the figure falled to the group.
- I told you, i wouldn't fall for you bitch ass tricks !!!
Pointing the gun now to His head, he was breathing anxiously, the moonlight covered his body together with the heavy rain and the sound of the lightning.
He look direct into God's eyes, and God didn't look back.
He shoot, His head exploded in milions of small pieces, - I KILLED YOU!!!!!- the euphory of his voice spred thought the place.
- I TOLD YOU SON OF A BITCH, I WOULD KILL YOU THIS GUN RIGHT HERE, THERE'S NO PLACE YOU COULD HIDE FROM ME.
He said, pointing to the pieces to the ground.
The smile on his face was genuine and truly, as it's slowly disappeared from him, together with the feeling of euphoria and happiness he felt.
He took the gun, he pointed to his head, he knew what kind destiny he would have, he had committed the greatest sin, and he was fine with it.
He closed his eyes, and pulled the trigger, and everything was over.
You know, in 7 days, a regular walking pace would involve over a million steps. Assuming you walked the whole seven days without stopping to rest. It'd be quite the feat of athleticism, but hardly unfeasable for that set of steps to be climbed. He'd have to be at a jogging or speedwalking pace for over half a day to makeup for needing to sleep. But it could be done.
This is an absolute masterpiece, this is what the internet was meant for.
As Grover cries for the semblance of God, he sees Himself, in the puddle that is mirror on the ground. He looks down at his reflection, Himself, God. God is below him and he is God.
God was already dead, dead when he set out this mission, dead as Kermit instigates the climb.
There was never a living God, only Grover’s doltish oblivion shoving him back down.
Determination to kill God aside, Grover thinking he can kill God with a Glock is like black widow training to fight Thanos using pistols.
this is the greatest fanfiction of them all.
For a non pørñö fanfiction it is definitely the best lmao
the quality of the writing propels this “joke” into something greater than just a joke in ways I can’t put into words, this is genuinely captivating as a writing piece alone.
That background industrial music is strangely compelling...
This is incredibly philosophical
Serial Experiments Lain has got NOTHING on this masterpiece! :O
I accept this to be the holy scripture of my newly discovered religion. We worship grover and our goal is to aid him in his pursuit to defeat kermit and kill god.
i found this channel through this video and i have to say that this is literally one of the best things i have come across in youtube
A moment of silence to Grover the *god slayer*
I’m not trying to kill God or anything but I strangely relate to the last part about time
There's two sides to eternity, the side with Jesus Christ and the side without. One is known as hell and feels like it, one is known as heaven and feels like it
I am trying to kill god and this is relatable.
@@nicholas2113 what about other religions
The Inquisition would like to know your current location@@Coffy-chan
@@nicholas2113what if you're wrong? What if all religions are wrong? And what if even if you are all wrong, there is indeed a "god" somewhere, a being not defined by any human's beliefs, misteryous in nature
This feels like an AU where instead of Elmo explaining to the ringmaster he killed god after taking his name in vain and not dying, it's now this epic of a spiteful Grover trying to outwit god himself only to fight a battle he was rigged to lose
This is a masterpiece. We need someone stupid who isn't even a Muppet to be in the sequel like big bird or something
2:22 “We look to find ourselves, to see our own face. And we find the face of god.”-Scott Free/Mister Miracle
Now we gotta find one where Grover became god and just smited Kermit
This must be how the first audiences of Shakespeare must have felt. Such profoud symbolism wrapped in a coat of parody and surrealism to choke down a bitter pill. The realization that we have so many steps to take and sins to make before we ultimately have to finally look in the mirror at the end. I hope in the end, I can make sense of it all like Grover.
Grover said "AY FOO I KNOW YOU UP HERE SOMEWHERE HOMES" and it was so.
This went from a meme to a full on anime villian backstory
The sound design is insane in this video, such a vibe, I rewatched it like 5 times already.
Imagine a digital time capsule held this video, in a bunker, surviving our great wars, an alien soecies descends upin it.and bears witness to the god of chaod, grover
Christ, that last line is fantastic. Definitely going to steal it.
Wait... how can he go from BEING God to having God kick him down the Stairs?
Because God is not bound by human sense of logic and reason.
Grover's a lot more intense than I remember him from when I was a kid 40 years ago!
I like the idea that Kermit had committed his own sins, and in his own cycle of torment went to kill God, only to become what he went to destroy. So he planned the entire thing as a test to condemn Grover to the same fate, only for Grover to condemn himself to eternal death in the end, having become his own God. 10/10 to this existentialist masterpiece!🤯
He's in hell. Not realizing that fact is part of his punishment.
Eventually, Grover stopped thinking.
I did it... I found the JoJo reference!
Legit sounds like a extended Mortal Kombat Arcade mode ending
I beg for mercy on the small child who happens to stumble upon this video while open-palm punching their tablet, for they will never see Sesame Street the same way for the rest of their life.
That's one way to start the Super Grover arc.
There was a monster at the end of this book. That monster was myself. If only I hadn’t turned that page
Dawg I was half expecting the narrator to start saying “bear, bull, bear, bull”
How is this some how a Mortal Kombat ending with a side of max Payne for good measure.
AI could never write a masterpiece like this.
thank you for sharing Grovers story, after listening to this I wont make the same mistakes he did. Ill win.
This feels like it should be on a Godspeed You album... 10/10
im so drunk man what the fuck did i just listen to
Grover needs to team up with kratos
This is the most metal thing I’ve heard in a long time.
Its so ironic that it uncannily becomes something you seriously ponder over
Mission failed, we'll get them next time
Glorious… absolutely wonderful… the perfect combination of silly and grimdark that you feel in your bones
this is an amasing drama i must make it a musical i think
Why was this actually amazingly written?
This heavily reminded me of those JRPGs where God is a final boss for some reason, imagine climbing all those stairs as part of the game
Grover suffered a reverse Sisyphus
This is sublime. This is what youtube was made for.
I need a full series on this now
Kermit: Hey Mister. This here's the stairway to Heaven. You know that don't you?
Grover: Annoying talking frog.
If Kermit really was God, then "wait until you've seen mine" becomes a really interesting quote...
This is absolutely beautiful i didn't expect such a great story about this i just found this randomly
this one's gonna pop off, I know it.
GOOD, THIS WAS A MASTERCLASS IN STORYTELLING
Glory oh Grover, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. On earth as it is in heaven. Amen.
"The stairs will turn into a slide after every seven days" 🤣🤣
series of events:
youtube recommends this on the homepage
me: oh hey it's that one Grover meme. I'll listen to this while I do other stuff
proceeds to stop everything else and stare in disbelief at how well this is both written and narrated
A good reminder of why I’m subscribed to you
so this is why everything felt so bad after 2020, i get it now
If you close your eyes to listen to this. Its like lestening to a Comarc Macarty audiobook or something.
I would rather listen to these than watch most modern movies.
He saw the birth of the universe and he saw the heat death, and he could not tell the difference
I'm a physics student and surprisingly, this actually matches some of our physical models. Total entropy (heat death) looks almost the same as minimal entropy (birth of the universe). It has even been considered that the heat death could potentially lead to a sort of rebirth of the universe because the two states are so similar.
Like a Phoenix reborn from its own ashes?