Ymir casually dropping some bombshell lore was one of my favorite moments in this DLC, alongside first getting to Shadow Keep and the Abyssal Woods, and of course CURSE YOU BAYLE.
"Is there no hope for redemption? The answer, sadly, is clear." Is one of the hardest lines from an npc, along with Dung Eaters speech and the Great Kenneth Haight
@@draw2death421 I disagree completely, atmosphere unmatched, the creepy untouchable fellows, and a dungeon that felt like it belonged in resident evil. Abyssal woods was one of my favorite areas in my first playthrough
@@bombthing its empty, we got allmost no new frenzied weapons. 2 reskins and a torch. The area has no new enemies beside the winter lantern dude. We also cant use torent there so we have to go throw the place slowly.
@@draw2death421 It's empty to invoke the feeling of loneliness which it does well. 3 frenzied flame weapons is not a disappointing amount considering the base game only has 2, Vyke's spear, and a shield that no one uses for madness. I have no idea what a winter lantern is, but it has plenty of new enemies, the Aging Untouchables which force you to play different, and the Hornsent Inquisitors and their variants. I am aware that they are reused later in Enir Ilim, but they are considered new since the Abyssal Woods is where you first see them
This makes complete sense in hindsight. It also explains why they wanted a completly different Elden Lord and looked up to the night sky. They definitely knew some things...
Could be BUT that means the Greater Will directly interceded in the Lands Between. Hence, even if Metyr was damaged by the Nox's attack, why didnt the Greater Will communicate with her if he so cares so much?
@@Calliofreespirit I believe that Marika sealed Metyr away and then Metyr had no direct comunication with the greater will and that's why the fingers do their own thing kind of but slowly dying off. Atleast that's how I understood it ... the fingers were just super old and much more magical and powerful finger creepers. In the end Metyr is also just a finger creeper ... kind of.
@@varden506 If you like the soundtracks from the souls games, i make music, and i just made a bloodeborne inspired soundtrack on my channel you can check out.
I think Metyr seduced Marika. They both are obsessed with birthing children and reproduction. The hornsent grandam specifically calls Marika a strumpet and curses her children. Marika slaughtered the hornset, taking their power and using it to craft the Elden Ring. How much of this was actually guided by the Greater Will, we'll never know because we're getting all this info from a dude who wants to be the mother of fingers himself. 😅
I think that Marika likely took The Blasphemous Serpent as her first Lord Consort as she ascended to Godhood but betrayed and slew her Lord as she claimed her divinity, casting him out and away from her.
Merika used the basis of the hornsent’s culture for her golden order (Scadutre to Erdtree, hornsent gold arc magic to fundamentalist golden order magic, empyreans existing in hornsent society and golden order, the shaman pots to the warrior pots, etc). We also know the lands Elden ring existed before Merika’s reign, likely under previous gods of previous ages (Placidusax was an Elden lord, for example, before Merika and the Elden ring in Faram Azula is different from the current one). I think Merika usurped the hornsent’s Elden god and took its power, becoming the new Elden god. Specifically (tin foil hat time) I think she was a successful shaman jar, a saint in the eyes of the hornsent, and was selected to be the next Elden lord under the previous Elden god. But she betrayed them and killed the prior god, taking its Elden powers for herself and remade her new order on top of the old hornsent society. I specifically think the old god was the abyssal snake in Messmer, possibly liked to the god devouring serpent, and we see it dead in the trailer where Merika pulls the grace of gold out from its eye socket. Messmer being born with the serpent would run parallel to the other children cursed and inflicted by outer gods.
So I believe you’re saying Metyr was receiving genuine transmission until after the Tarnished’s banishment, where then it suddenly stopped, but what could have caused this sudden break if it wasn’t already the case long before? As someone else brought up, maybe the Nox using the fingerslaying blade to harm Metyr caused that break? This would make some sense… but if the Greater Will cared enough to send punishment, wouldn’t it care enough to send aid for the Lands Between (I.e a new messenger)?
You could argue that the Greater Will broke contact with Metyr long before the foundation of the Golden Order arguably around the time that Placidusax was Lord. The why is not fully known but one hypothesis could be that the Greater Will died at some point and some thing rose from it's "corpse"...the Flame of Frenzy. Which is supposedly meant to melt away all life that was born from a "fracture"...with said fracture (arguably) being a daughter of the Greater WIll unintentionally going rogue and usurping its power to create something unsanctioned.
@@theenderdestruction2362 ahh great point, you’re right in that most of the evidence indicates that the Greater Will is a Will of order (as opposed to the frenzied flame), and that we the tarnished seek to bring in a new order, whatever that may be. This goal of *an* order (a functional one) rather than *the* order may be more fundamentally aligned with the G.W’s aim inherently as a metaphysical entity rather than the status quo which is the very tainted and at this point stagnant Golden Order. Since Marika’s view about whoever wins the shattering is very similar though, I’m only a little confused why she is punished by the Elden Beast when she may have been trying to enact what the Greater Will really wants, which is a new change that brings greater stability
Wait I thought metyr lost contact waaay before marika’s time. That’s what the finger guy tells us. But yes I doubt the greater will was truly gone when it bothered to send down Astel. But maybe it didn’t?
@@wilburforce8046 I don't think anything that came from the stars was the work of the Greater WIll. If anything the fact that the Golden Order was set up using powers that came from the stars would essencially turn the tale into the Promethean stealing of the fire
Elden Ring; ultimate lesson learned, the gods suck. In all seriousness though; The Golden Order is a sham that can’t be fixed, living in death doesn’t fix the issues with destined death, the mother of wounds just wants eternal bloodshed, curseblood just wants horny vengeance (not like that), and frenzied flame is just nihilistic to an absurd extent. I imagine that the god of rot would have been a bad choice; and we know from the DLC that Miquella made himself incapable of doing what he set out to do when he divested himself of the very love he needed for his new order. Really; it just seems like Ranni’s ending continues to be the most sensible option given to our tarnished .
The ending where she ascends to godhood and leaves, leaving the lands between to the outer gods. Age of fracture at least has an elden lord to try and minimise their power rather than just leaving the lands to them.
@@blizzardgaming7070the way I understood rannis ending is that her leaving is cutting off ALL outer god's from acting, kind of like moving away and pulling all influence away with her, completely freeing the lands between of any godly influence.
@@blizzardgaming7070 I can definitely see that interpretation; especially when we look at the english translation for Ranni’s dialogue. I do think that the whole issue of outer gods was never really going to be solved by just upholding the same order though; especially since we now know that the Greater Will either went MIA or perhaps was even slayed by another outer god after dropping the fingers snd the Elden Beast off. And seeing how fallible the fingers were; and how much being a god for the golden order is a prison, I still think Ranni had the right of it to end it and go space fairing with her lord. Who knows; maybe our honeymoon is spent hunting down outer gods?
@@tibi9966 it is never actually stated that the outer gods are cut off, unlike Goldmask's ending which does mention the Marika style gods being cut off. Not sure why people started saying that.
key phrases: "there was a seduction and a betrayal" and "thru this affair, gold was born"... an affair is when you have relations while married. Who did Merika have an affair with while married to whom?
I dont think the betrayal was an affair, I think she betrayed that Hornsent Grandam. Grandam was apparently an Empyrean, so I think Marika got close to her to receive the info on ascension, then ascended before Grandam could
What if Marika was a successful saint. The only one to ascend from the jar. Would explain Radagon, tbh since she is basically many people grafted together. Then the hornsent revered her, and the fingers found out contacted her to meld with the elden ring. Thus, the seduction and the birth of gold+order. She then slaughtered the hornsent for what they did to others like her.
Honestly, a lot of the lore is inconsistent. The official art of Mohg taking Miquella, for instance, depicts a conpletely different sort of Miquella than what we see in the memory of the Circlet of Light as Miquella speaks to Radahn. Metyr is supposed to birth Finger Creepers, and we see her do so, yet the larger Finger Creepers have bloody wrist stumps as if cut off from arms. I think the development was a LOT rockier and, therefore, confused, than optimal. Even GRR Martin seemed a bit confused because he stated in an interview that he was making a sequel to Dark Souls. And clearly Martin held huge sway over the lore (Captain Bayle Ahab certainly being his creation), but Miyazaki likely twisted Martin's "very human story" to his own design. The dude is so obsessed with Alchemy that he cannot help himself.
The fingercreeper critique is a bit strange, perhaps the bloody stump is part of the birthing process, similar to the disconnecting the baby from the placenta. The stumps are functionally the "belly button" once Metyr releases her children.
@@defro125 My problem is we do not see what their wrists disconnect from, or are chopped off from. Maybe they are teleported in from a black hole gate similar to the one that Metyr uses to leave at the end of her boss fight, and this blackhole gateway sunders the fingercreepers from wherever they originally come from. Maybe the "mother" of fingers is just a gateway for the fingers. That is my problem with it, I guess, generally. The lore is more obscure than even Bloodborne. The name Metyr seems odd, too, since it contains the name Tyr, the Aesir who lost his hand to Fenrir while the other gods bound the beast. Maybe Metyr is the literal hand of the GW, separated by Marika when she cast Metyr into the Shadowlands. I do not know. It is all too vague.
I think Marika realized most of this and is what encouraged her to shatter the ring. She couldn’t have been clueless about the finger situation forever, especially after she dipped to “reflect on the order” before shattering the ring.
It's worth noting that both Marika and Messmer both make irrational, destructive decisions (shattering the Elden Ring/embracing the Base Serpent) inspired by the malfunctioning of their "perfect order", and they're also two of the only characters who are shown to be actively researching the Ancient Ruins (Marika has a large collection of the ancient tablets in her bedchambers, and Messmer has the Specimen Storehouse--which is also full of them.) It's an interesting parallel that I think enlightens Marika's story in an indirect way. Enough similarities to create parallels, without directly telling the player what caused Marika to shatter the ring--because ultimately, the game wants us to decide how the Elden Ring should be fixed, so labelling one singular "flaw" which Marika sought to fix would introduce too much of a bias.
@@TheMightyNovac how was shattering the ring irrational? The fingers were gunning for a new heir to the throne and a new bloody order. Marika put an end to their crap, and then used us to fix the problem. (Litteraly her plan) She was 5d chess playing.
@@wilburforce8046 What new heir were the Fingers gunning for? The Two Fingers we see are only guiding us (tarnished) to become Elden Lord--not usurp Marika. In most endings, Marika remains the vessel of the Elden Ring, outside of Ranni's--which literally involves killing one of the Two Fingers.
@@wilburforce8046 I don't think it fits any of her motivations; Marika is shown, more than anything, to have been contemplating destroying the Golden Order--why would she be so protective of her throne? How does destroying the Elden Ring prevent others from taking her place? If anything, destroying the Elden Ring invited her children to feud for her position--it doesn't help anything. Destroying the Elden Ring didn't help anyone--just like how releasing the Base Serpent didn't help Messmer. It was an irrational decision founded on emotion (which is the spoken flaw of Marika, according to multiple characters) that served to only destroy the order she had created.
Could it be that the Greater Will in essence is perhaps no will at all and does not have any wants or designs but merely creates and leaves things from there this would imply that Metyr misinterpreted her own creation and perhaps was meant to handle things on her own from the start, provided she never got any signals from the Greater Will after her landing and did what she did as a result of some kind of inner instinct? To get the wheel going so to speak on an interesting Side Note, the Cathedral of Manus Metyr seems to have a sister building in the form of the Cathedral of Manus Celes at the Moonlight altar in Liurnia, both places having strong connections to the Carians - or perhaps the ancient Carian Astrologers Now I wonder, is Celes the Name of Rannis two fingers? They seem very different from the other Two Fingers we can see and what of the Three Thingers? Ymir, if he is to be believed, implied that the Fingers are defective due to Metyrs corruption, does that mean the Three Fingers came with a case of severe birth defect leading them to detest all live and creation of the Greater Will and embracing the Philosophy of Nihilism, becoming heralds of the Flame of Frenzy? I imagine Metyr must be their mother two, they share all characterstics for that to be the case, or are the Three Fingers a Gesture of Spite from Metyr herself after becoming displeased with how things turned out in the lands between and the Shattering of the Elden Ring - her great Work
I think I saw it on reddit, but: I think Marika had an agreement - to mever experience desth of her family again with the Greater Will. The moment the agreement was made, the Greater Will was cut off somehow. Then, centuries later, aftwr Marika has established the Holder Order and Leyendell, everything - her firstborn son dies, and does not ressurect as promised. She perceives this as the Greater Will failing their agreement - and so she shetters the Elden Ring.
Since we know the Jars can create a meshed personality of sorts, I think it is possible that "Marika" is a successful saint of the shaman jars. That is the reason she became an Empyrean and was able to rise to godhood. Radagon can be a second "personality" created by the Jars who embodies order and honour. Also there are mentions of Marika betraying the Hornsent. Maybe the Saint Marika was prayed to by the hornsent and she used her status as a saint to raise an army somehow and then turned on the Hornsent for revenge. The seduction could be the Finger Mother seducing Marika the Saint to betray the Hornsent in exchange for godhood and power. Also its pretty much confirmed that Messmer is son of Radagon and MArika due to the red hair.
Everything he says we can see with our own eyes. And his craziness comes from grief over the loss of his own child, he likely saw the way the fingers were lost and abandoned by their mother and wanted to be a surrogate for them
I am utterly convinced that Metyr was able to birth the Two Fingers, the fingercreepers are 11 lingered abominations, and maybe even the Three Fingers, but never a Five Fingers. Which i imagine would be The Greater Will made flesh, and so she was abandoned.
I don't think the golden seed and the elden beast were related at all as you sort of describe, I think the elden beast came with the elden ring, and the elden ring came alongside the crucible. At some point the greater will did have a connection to the mother of fingers, but that connection was abandoned, probably when placidusax was abandoned as well maybe?
I always assume that Marika/Radagon give birth to Messmer to help her to be a god. The reason I came up with this is that there is no way a mere shaman back then was able to kill and sacrifice the Hornset. In the trailer, we saw Marika literally ascending to become a god in the same place as Tricky Miq. If we look around the arena, we saw so many or literally the entire arena of Hornset race died/sacrifice. So Marika must get some help from someone and mostly like her son, Mesmer who wage wars on her name even after Marika abandoned the Shadow Land. How did Radagon even exist back then? Well, now we know that Shaman have a unique power that Hornset doesn't have, and that's why Hornset literally butchered them and put them into a jar. This explains why all Shaman descendants, like Godrick, are able to graft his body easily, just like all descendants of Shaman who can regenerate, transform, and graft easily. So it makes sense that Radagon already existed back then when she left her village and gave birth to Mesmer.
Can you specify when it was implied that the two fingers was communicating with Metyr instead of the greater will? Also if the greater will sent the elden beast because metyr was broken, and the beast is the elden ring and lives within marika the beast would likely has a connection with the greater will or at least a set of more recent instructions.
@@Nous997 then she would only need the blade from the underground city to kill the fingers like she did in the end, without the whole rune of death circus.
-discovers earth -sends in an eldritch monster to communicate with people -said eldritch monster runs on old potato softwer -couldn't be bothered to fix it -drops in another one and leaves *The greater will in a nutshell*
I honestly don’t think you really need a consort to become a god mainly since malenia just becomes a god right in front of your face with like no consort or anything of that sort. Though she may be the exception
I mean, if you go by the defeat text. She's not a God yet. It still says, "Demigod Felled." So.... Yeah.... And if you count unused dialogue. She mentions in an unused defeat line "but remember... the scarlet flower will bloom once more". This might be her second bloom. As opposed to her third.
hey we dont know each other but i hope ur doing well and I wanna say that GOD still loves u and wants u to be with him all u must do is trust in Jesus (dying for our sins on the cross) and repent of ur sins. GOD loves u more than u can imagine.🎉❤❤❤
A very real thought that should be considered is that the Greater Will doesn't exist - and never had. All our knowledge of it, Marika's knowledge, is based on the Two Fingers and therefore on whatever Metyr is saying. What if the fingers, Metyr, simply pushed their own personal religion on the Lands Between? The things they themselves cannot explain, like for example their own existence and their purpose and why they landed here as falling stars... they're not that different from regular people, of course aside from their astral origin. And for what we know they could just be a very disoriented and lonely alien race that resorted to made up fundamentalist believes about a greater being. One of Elden Ring's themes pretty much is about faith, blind faith almost. And where it comes from, and what it does to people. The normal people follow the demigods, who in turn follow Marika, who follows her two finger, who follow Metyr who may or may not follow a "Greater Will"... what if their is no real origin for the "hierarchy of faiths" in the Lands Between? That is the sad and scary truth about this world.
Ymir casually dropping some bombshell lore was one of my favorite moments in this DLC, alongside first getting to Shadow Keep and the Abyssal Woods, and of course CURSE YOU BAYLE.
"Is there no hope for redemption? The answer, sadly, is clear." Is one of the hardest lines from an npc, along with Dung Eaters speech and the Great Kenneth Haight
Too bad Abyssal Woods were a massive let down.
@@draw2death421 I disagree completely, atmosphere unmatched, the creepy untouchable fellows, and a dungeon that felt like it belonged in resident evil. Abyssal woods was one of my favorite areas in my first playthrough
@@bombthing its empty, we got allmost no new frenzied weapons. 2 reskins and a torch. The area has no new enemies beside the winter lantern dude.
We also cant use torent there so we have to go throw the place slowly.
@@draw2death421 It's empty to invoke the feeling of loneliness which it does well. 3 frenzied flame weapons is not a disappointing amount considering the base game only has 2, Vyke's spear, and a shield that no one uses for madness. I have no idea what a winter lantern is, but it has plenty of new enemies, the Aging Untouchables which force you to play different, and the Hornsent Inquisitors and their variants. I am aware that they are reused later in Enir Ilim, but they are considered new since the Abyssal Woods is where you first see them
I wonder if the people who would become the Nox tried to use their Finger Slayering blade on Meytr, resulting in their banishment underground.
This makes complete sense in hindsight. It also explains why they wanted a completly different Elden Lord and looked up to the night sky. They definitely knew some things...
@@dadeviI NEED THE RESPONSESS
Could be BUT that means the Greater Will directly interceded in the Lands Between. Hence, even if Metyr was damaged by the Nox's attack, why didnt the Greater Will communicate with her if he so cares so much?
@@Calliofreespirit I believe that Marika sealed Metyr away and then Metyr had no direct comunication with the greater will and that's why the fingers do their own thing kind of but slowly dying off. Atleast that's how I understood it ... the fingers were just super old and much more magical and powerful finger creepers. In the end Metyr is also just a finger creeper ... kind of.
@@Corazon-6 I don't understand. Didn't I just respond?
There is a lot of norse myth in the game, so the idea of the inevitably of the destruction and recreation of the world makes a bit of sense.
Also hindu mythology as well, rakshasa is a demon in Hindu mythology
Entire series has a lot of occult, mythological, and gnostic symbolism in the games.
it's a crucible of mythologies. HeHe
@@meteorheartofficial😂👏👏
@@varden506 If you like the soundtracks from the souls games, i make music, and i just made a bloodeborne inspired soundtrack on my channel you can check out.
I think Metyr seduced Marika. They both are obsessed with birthing children and reproduction. The hornsent grandam specifically calls Marika a strumpet and curses her children. Marika slaughtered the hornset, taking their power and using it to craft the Elden Ring. How much of this was actually guided by the Greater Will, we'll never know because we're getting all this info from a dude who wants to be the mother of fingers himself. 😅
Yeah and there's a spot in meytr that looks like what Marika pulled the threads out of.
Let’s be real the man himself is a puppet of the greater will his theory that it’s all gone is cope on his end.
Marika and the golden order was never in touch with the greater will metyr was just winging it
I think that Marika likely took The Blasphemous Serpent as her first Lord Consort as she ascended to Godhood but betrayed and slew her Lord as she claimed her divinity, casting him out and away from her.
That's nasty you trying to tell me she fucked a snake???
Merika used the basis of the hornsent’s culture for her golden order (Scadutre to Erdtree, hornsent gold arc magic to fundamentalist golden order magic, empyreans existing in hornsent society and golden order, the shaman pots to the warrior pots, etc). We also know the lands Elden ring existed before Merika’s reign, likely under previous gods of previous ages (Placidusax was an Elden lord, for example, before Merika and the Elden ring in Faram Azula is different from the current one). I think Merika usurped the hornsent’s Elden god and took its power, becoming the new Elden god. Specifically (tin foil hat time) I think she was a successful shaman jar, a saint in the eyes of the hornsent, and was selected to be the next Elden lord under the previous Elden god. But she betrayed them and killed the prior god, taking its Elden powers for herself and remade her new order on top of the old hornsent society. I specifically think the old god was the abyssal snake in Messmer, possibly liked to the god devouring serpent, and we see it dead in the trailer where Merika pulls the grace of gold out from its eye socket. Messmer being born with the serpent would run parallel to the other children cursed and inflicted by outer gods.
So I believe you’re saying Metyr was receiving genuine transmission until after the Tarnished’s banishment, where then it suddenly stopped, but what could have caused this sudden break if it wasn’t already the case long before? As someone else brought up, maybe the Nox using the fingerslaying blade to harm Metyr caused that break? This would make some sense… but if the Greater Will cared enough to send punishment, wouldn’t it care enough to send aid for the Lands Between (I.e a new messenger)?
Perhaps it forsaw marikas shitstorm and left and followed the tarnished instead of becoming blind to the lands between in the process
You could argue that the Greater Will broke contact with Metyr long before the foundation of the Golden Order arguably around the time that Placidusax was Lord. The why is not fully known but one hypothesis could be that the Greater Will died at some point and some thing rose from it's "corpse"...the Flame of Frenzy. Which is supposedly meant to melt away all life that was born from a "fracture"...with said fracture (arguably) being a daughter of the Greater WIll unintentionally going rogue and usurping its power to create something unsanctioned.
@@theenderdestruction2362 ahh great point, you’re right in that most of the evidence indicates that the Greater Will is a Will of order (as opposed to the frenzied flame), and that we the tarnished seek to bring in a new order, whatever that may be. This goal of *an* order (a functional one) rather than *the* order may be more fundamentally aligned with the G.W’s aim inherently as a metaphysical entity rather than the status quo which is the very tainted and at this point stagnant Golden Order. Since Marika’s view about whoever wins the shattering is very similar though, I’m only a little confused why she is punished by the Elden Beast when she may have been trying to enact what the Greater Will really wants, which is a new change that brings greater stability
Wait I thought metyr lost contact waaay before marika’s time. That’s what the finger guy tells us.
But yes I doubt the greater will was truly gone when it bothered to send down Astel. But maybe it didn’t?
@@wilburforce8046 I don't think anything that came from the stars was the work of the Greater WIll. If anything the fact that the Golden Order was set up using powers that came from the stars would essencially turn the tale into the Promethean stealing of the fire
Elden Ring; ultimate lesson learned, the gods suck.
In all seriousness though; The Golden Order is a sham that can’t be fixed, living in death doesn’t fix the issues with destined death, the mother of wounds just wants eternal bloodshed, curseblood just wants horny vengeance (not like that), and frenzied flame is just nihilistic to an absurd extent.
I imagine that the god of rot would have been a bad choice; and we know from the DLC that Miquella made himself incapable of doing what he set out to do when he divested himself of the very love he needed for his new order.
Really; it just seems like Ranni’s ending continues to be the most sensible option given to our tarnished .
The ending where she ascends to godhood and leaves, leaving the lands between to the outer gods. Age of fracture at least has an elden lord to try and minimise their power rather than just leaving the lands to them.
@@blizzardgaming7070the way I understood rannis ending is that her leaving is cutting off ALL outer god's from acting, kind of like moving away and pulling all influence away with her, completely freeing the lands between of any godly influence.
@@blizzardgaming7070 I can definitely see that interpretation; especially when we look at the english translation for Ranni’s dialogue.
I do think that the whole issue of outer gods was never really going to be solved by just upholding the same order though; especially since we now know that the Greater Will either went MIA or perhaps was even slayed by another outer god after dropping the fingers snd the Elden Beast off. And seeing how fallible the fingers were; and how much being a god for the golden order is a prison, I still think Ranni had the right of it to end it and go space fairing with her lord.
Who knows; maybe our honeymoon is spent hunting down outer gods?
@@tibi9966 it is never actually stated that the outer gods are cut off, unlike Goldmask's ending which does mention the Marika style gods being cut off. Not sure why people started saying that.
Tl;dr Antenna got fucked up
key phrases: "there was a seduction and a betrayal" and "thru this affair, gold was born"... an affair is when you have relations while married. Who did Merika have an affair with while married to whom?
The Father of Messmer and Melina. "I was born at the foot of the Erdtree"
I think that's a metaphor. She was guided by the Fingers to godhood.
Midra. Stole his frenzy flame power cause she needed the power of a lord. That's my theory at least.
I dont think the betrayal was an affair, I think she betrayed that Hornsent Grandam. Grandam was apparently an Empyrean, so I think Marika got close to her to receive the info on ascension, then ascended before Grandam could
Herself. Like literally Herself
What if Marika was a successful saint. The only one to ascend from the jar. Would explain Radagon, tbh since she is basically many people grafted together. Then the hornsent revered her, and the fingers found out contacted her to meld with the elden ring. Thus, the seduction and the birth of gold+order. She then slaughtered the hornsent for what they did to others like her.
Honestly, a lot of the lore is inconsistent. The official art of Mohg taking Miquella, for instance, depicts a conpletely different sort of Miquella than what we see in the memory of the Circlet of Light as Miquella speaks to Radahn. Metyr is supposed to birth Finger Creepers, and we see her do so, yet the larger Finger Creepers have bloody wrist stumps as if cut off from arms. I think the development was a LOT rockier and, therefore, confused, than optimal. Even GRR Martin seemed a bit confused because he stated in an interview that he was making a sequel to Dark Souls. And clearly Martin held huge sway over the lore (Captain Bayle Ahab certainly being his creation), but Miyazaki likely twisted Martin's "very human story" to his own design. The dude is so obsessed with Alchemy that he cannot help himself.
The fingercreeper critique is a bit strange, perhaps the bloody stump is part of the birthing process, similar to the disconnecting the baby from the placenta. The stumps are functionally the "belly button" once Metyr releases her children.
@@defro125 My problem is we do not see what their wrists disconnect from, or are chopped off from. Maybe they are teleported in from a black hole gate similar to the one that Metyr uses to leave at the end of her boss fight, and this blackhole gateway sunders the fingercreepers from wherever they originally come from. Maybe the "mother" of fingers is just a gateway for the fingers. That is my problem with it, I guess, generally. The lore is more obscure than even Bloodborne. The name Metyr seems odd, too, since it contains the name Tyr, the Aesir who lost his hand to Fenrir while the other gods bound the beast. Maybe Metyr is the literal hand of the GW, separated by Marika when she cast Metyr into the Shadowlands. I do not know. It is all too vague.
I think Marika realized most of this and is what encouraged her to shatter the ring.
She couldn’t have been clueless about the finger situation forever, especially after she dipped to “reflect on the order” before shattering the ring.
It's worth noting that both Marika and Messmer both make irrational, destructive decisions (shattering the Elden Ring/embracing the Base Serpent) inspired by the malfunctioning of their "perfect order", and they're also two of the only characters who are shown to be actively researching the Ancient Ruins (Marika has a large collection of the ancient tablets in her bedchambers, and Messmer has the Specimen Storehouse--which is also full of them.)
It's an interesting parallel that I think enlightens Marika's story in an indirect way. Enough similarities to create parallels, without directly telling the player what caused Marika to shatter the ring--because ultimately, the game wants us to decide how the Elden Ring should be fixed, so labelling one singular "flaw" which Marika sought to fix would introduce too much of a bias.
@@TheMightyNovac how was shattering the ring irrational? The fingers were gunning for a new heir to the throne and a new bloody order. Marika put an end to their crap, and then used us to fix the problem. (Litteraly her plan)
She was 5d chess playing.
@@wilburforce8046 What new heir were the Fingers gunning for? The Two Fingers we see are only guiding us (tarnished) to become Elden Lord--not usurp Marika. In most endings, Marika remains the vessel of the Elden Ring, outside of Ranni's--which literally involves killing one of the Two Fingers.
@@TheMightyNovac before the shattering? All the empyreans dog.
@@wilburforce8046 I don't think it fits any of her motivations; Marika is shown, more than anything, to have been contemplating destroying the Golden Order--why would she be so protective of her throne? How does destroying the Elden Ring prevent others from taking her place? If anything, destroying the Elden Ring invited her children to feud for her position--it doesn't help anything.
Destroying the Elden Ring didn't help anyone--just like how releasing the Base Serpent didn't help Messmer. It was an irrational decision founded on emotion (which is the spoken flaw of Marika, according to multiple characters) that served to only destroy the order she had created.
Doomed to fail? Age of the perfect order enters the chat
T-poses
*Perfects Golden Order with Transcendental Ideology*
Dies T-posing
Could it be that the Greater Will in essence is perhaps no will at all and does not have any wants or designs but merely creates and leaves things from there
this would imply that Metyr misinterpreted her own creation and perhaps was meant to handle things on her own from the start, provided she never got any signals from the Greater Will after her landing and did what she did as a result of some kind of inner instinct? To get the wheel going so to speak
on an interesting Side Note, the Cathedral of Manus Metyr seems to have a sister building in the form of the Cathedral of Manus Celes at the Moonlight altar in Liurnia, both places having strong connections to the Carians - or perhaps the ancient Carian Astrologers
Now I wonder, is Celes the Name of Rannis two fingers? They seem very different from the other Two Fingers we can see and what of the Three Thingers? Ymir, if he is to be believed, implied that the Fingers are defective due to Metyrs corruption, does that mean the Three Fingers came with a case of severe birth defect leading them to detest all live and creation of the Greater Will and embracing the Philosophy of Nihilism, becoming heralds of the Flame of Frenzy?
I imagine Metyr must be their mother two, they share all characterstics for that to be the case, or are the Three Fingers a Gesture of Spite from Metyr herself after becoming displeased with how things turned out in the lands between and the Shattering of the Elden Ring - her great Work
Marika did the attack on titan on her children mark my words, Miyazaki and GRRM are fucking with us
I think I saw it on reddit, but:
I think Marika had an agreement - to mever experience desth of her family again with the Greater Will.
The moment the agreement was made, the Greater Will was cut off somehow.
Then, centuries later, aftwr Marika has established the Holder Order and Leyendell, everything - her firstborn son dies, and does not ressurect as promised.
She perceives this as the Greater Will failing their agreement - and so she shetters the Elden Ring.
Turn on auto correct bro
Since we know the Jars can create a meshed personality of sorts, I think it is possible that "Marika" is a successful saint of the shaman jars. That is the reason she became an Empyrean and was able to rise to godhood. Radagon can be a second "personality" created by the Jars who embodies order and honour.
Also there are mentions of Marika betraying the Hornsent. Maybe the Saint Marika was prayed to by the hornsent and she used her status as a saint to raise an army somehow and then turned on the Hornsent for revenge. The seduction could be the Finger Mother seducing Marika the Saint to betray the Hornsent in exchange for godhood and power.
Also its pretty much confirmed that Messmer is son of Radagon and MArika due to the red hair.
My issue is ymir is a suspect source who wants you to kill meytr for his own selfish purposes
Take what ymir says with a grain of salt.he wants to be the mother of fingers, he aint right in the head
Everything he says we can see with our own eyes. And his craziness comes from grief over the loss of his own child, he likely saw the way the fingers were lost and abandoned by their mother and wanted to be a surrogate for them
@@Rusty_Spy NO, HE LITERALY WANTS TO BIRTH FINGERS
@@headecas Well same difference
@@Rusty_Spy it aint
I am utterly convinced that Metyr was able to birth the Two Fingers, the fingercreepers are 11 lingered abominations, and maybe even the Three Fingers, but never a Five Fingers. Which i imagine would be The Greater Will made flesh, and so she was abandoned.
Thanks again for a great video pare! 🇵🇭
Wait didn’t the Elden beast description say it was a star?
The game implies that even more by saying the fingers were the first.
I don't think the golden seed and the elden beast were related at all as you sort of describe, I think the elden beast came with the elden ring, and the elden ring came alongside the crucible. At some point the greater will did have a connection to the mother of fingers, but that connection was abandoned, probably when placidusax was abandoned as well maybe?
I always assume that Marika/Radagon give birth to Messmer to help her to be a god.
The reason I came up with this is that there is no way a mere shaman back then was able to kill and sacrifice the Hornset. In the trailer, we saw Marika literally ascending to become a god in the same place as Tricky Miq. If we look around the arena, we saw so many or literally the entire arena of Hornset race died/sacrifice.
So Marika must get some help from someone and mostly like her son, Mesmer who wage wars on her name even after Marika abandoned the Shadow Land.
How did Radagon even exist back then? Well, now we know that Shaman have a unique power that Hornset doesn't have, and that's why Hornset literally butchered them and put them into a jar.
This explains why all Shaman descendants, like Godrick, are able to graft his body easily, just like all descendants of Shaman who can regenerate, transform, and graft easily.
So it makes sense that Radagon already existed back then when she left her village and gave birth to Mesmer.
Can you specify when it was implied that the two fingers was communicating with Metyr instead of the greater will?
Also if the greater will sent the elden beast because metyr was broken, and the beast is the elden ring and lives within marika the beast would likely has a connection with the greater will or at least a set of more recent instructions.
Man, Elden ring is incredible, his lore i need DLC 2 or Elden ring 2 or a book telling the entire story..
In the story trailer, when Marika is pulling the grace from that thing. Is that Metyr?
"Nothing gold can stay."
Why does Ranni go out of her way to such extent to dissolve herself from the greater will if it wasn't there? why would she make such a mistake?
Because she never talks about the Greater Will. Only her fingers
@@Nous997 then she would only need the blade from the underground city to kill the fingers like she did in the end, without the whole rune of death circus.
-discovers earth
-sends in an eldritch monster to communicate with people
-said eldritch monster runs on old potato softwer
-couldn't be bothered to fix it
-drops in another one and leaves
*The greater will in a nutshell*
I honestly don’t think you really need a consort to become a god mainly since malenia just becomes a god right in front of your face with like no consort or anything of that sort. Though she may be the exception
I mean, if you go by the defeat text. She's not a God yet. It still says, "Demigod Felled."
So.... Yeah.... And if you count unused dialogue. She mentions in an unused defeat line "but remember... the scarlet flower will bloom once more".
This might be her second bloom. As opposed to her third.
What if everything was a lie?
You clearly haven’t realized this yet, while the rest of us have.
Maybe meytr is broken cause marika put a big tin foil shield over her? 🤔
Leda narrates the story trailer lol
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
hey we dont know each other but i hope ur doing well and I wanna say that GOD still loves u and wants u to be with him all u must do is trust in Jesus (dying for our sins on the cross) and repent of ur sins. GOD loves u more than u can imagine.🎉❤❤❤
…cool… anyway
A very real thought that should be considered is that the Greater Will doesn't exist - and never had. All our knowledge of it, Marika's knowledge, is based on the Two Fingers and therefore on whatever Metyr is saying. What if the fingers, Metyr, simply pushed their own personal religion on the Lands Between? The things they themselves cannot explain, like for example their own existence and their purpose and why they landed here as falling stars... they're not that different from regular people, of course aside from their astral origin. And for what we know they could just be a very disoriented and lonely alien race that resorted to made up fundamentalist believes about a greater being. One of Elden Ring's themes pretty much is about faith, blind faith almost. And where it comes from, and what it does to people. The normal people follow the demigods, who in turn follow Marika, who follows her two finger, who follow Metyr who may or may not follow a "Greater Will"... what if their is no real origin for the "hierarchy of faiths" in the Lands Between? That is the sad and scary truth about this world.