In a sea of Vaati look-alikes, everybody trying to sound super cult and knowledgeable, your videos really stand out. Your mockable style and jokes along a truly thoughtful analysis of the lore is both fun and interesting. Great job!
In regards to Omen nightmares, if what they see is horned figures laughing and whatnot, what if they are seeing their ancestors during times of revelry, but because of their culture/environment they feel haunted by these images as opposed to invigorated by them. Seems to me like Marika is weaponizing generational trauma
Everything she did makes a lot of sense if you can imagine a terrified, traumatized, physically and spiritually violated girl coming out of that jar to celebrating potentates expecting her to be grateful Then finding out that they successfully had enacted a theocratic genocide condemning her entire culture to a horrific end Marika left her humanity behind but she was all too human once and you can see it in what she tried to value. She tried to make a perfect golden family in a perfect safe place, where no one ever had to die and she didnt ever have to lose anyone. It's the kind of wishful thinking that would keep someone trapped in their grief, a slave to it. It's why part of healing is acceptance, moving on, otherwise its a prison and you lose your own free will to it. And Metyr knew it. Eventually Marika did too. With all the grandiosity of a God she had to learn it harder than most.
@timwinterhalter5233 but then, dispate her best efforts, her most golden son - Godwyn - died. And not just died - murdered in a treasonous plot. She turned death off, and it didn't help, didn't stop the loss. That when she broke.
The DLC really fries my brain when it comes to the timeline, especially the birth placement of Melina and Messmer, but one thing I've been cooking lately is that Marika's war against the giants likely preceded the conflict with the Hornsent. After all, the Fell God appears to be a common enemy of them both, so maybe they worked together to thwart the Fire Giants. The "betrayal" kind of merits some sort of relationship between the two groups, maybe the war against the north was that. This is also potentially why the Zamor have been discarded by the Golden Order - they control the ice aspect of the storm, could they be Hornsent warriors? They also used curved swords. Something to consider
Also, the furnace golems that Messmer uses has these large, crude effigies of the Fire Giants with their hair and beards on their legs, implying that it’s set after the war against the giants.
Sorry in advance for the essay, I 100% agree about the Zamor btw, it makes too much sense. As for the timeline, Gaius' remembrance may give us a clue, as it tells us that he and Messmer were close friends and like older brothers to Radahn. Both born "cursed", which is simply to say that neither were guided by Grace, being a base Serpent and Albanauric respectively. This would mean they were either around during the time of Radagon, or shortly before-hand, perhaps being alive to witness Godfrey's exile, getting dispatched to eradicate the Hornsent shortly thereafter by Marika and her new Consort Radagon. This might explain why the Crucible was still respected by a nascent Golden Order, which was yet flexible enough to accept outside concepts like those of the Carians and Ancient Dragons. I think that part of the reason the timeline and events are so confusing and weird is because of the veiling/separation of the Land of Shadows has seen the region severed from reality maybe even retroactively. The Great Runes and Elden Ring clearly have supernatural influence on the Logic of the World, a term first brought up in Darksouls lore, which basically amounts to the mechanisms by which a given reality functions. The Golden Order is simultaneously a religion, a form of feudal government *and* a set of metaphysical laws which reality is subjected to. The Elden Ring shapes the logic of the world in a particular fashion based on which Great Runes are slotted in, and how they are configured, which is what allowed Marika's to re-write how Death and Rebirth work by excising Destined Death and the Rune of the Unborn. The founding principle of the Golden Order is that Marika is the One True God. The faithful overall regard the Erdtree as some kind of eternal, immortal wellspring of life. Both of these concepts are completely contradicted by the existence of the Scadutree, the polytheistic Hornsent and the influence of the other Outer Gods. Though mentioned only a few times in-game, part of Marika's legitimacy stems from the Greater Will's endorsement, something confirmed by the Two-fingers in their selection. A *lot* of the characters, locations and secrets of the DLC directly undermine or jeopardize the Golden Order in fact. We have Ymir denying Godhood as a concept altogether, Metyr not actually enacting the Greater Will's designs as claimed, the genocide of the Hornsent and the abandonment of Messmer and his crusaders. Any of that getting out would be *bad* news for the Golden Order as it would erode the faith of her adherents, which is what powers incantation magic. As a result, she just decided to ret-conned out the parts that ran contrary to her vision/she didn't like. www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1dslkhg/yet_another_map_overlay/#lightbox I don't think it's just a coincidence that overlapping the maps shows us that the Erdtree and Scadutree grow in pretty much the same spot, that the center of the Lands Between is in the Shadowlands (we have an actual in-game marker), nor that Jagged Peak end up in Caelid where we find a church of Dragon communion and dragon-barrow. Nor is it just a coincidence that the Church of the Bud overlooks Liurnia, under which is the lake of Rot bubbles and where one finds a scorpion stinger dagger (hello Romina!). If we look at where Agheel lake sits relative to the Cerulean Cost, Liurna's titles as "of the lakes" (plural!) makes a lot more sense too. It's also interesting how Belurat and Enir Illim are so close to Stormveil Castle, where Godfrey is supposed to have taken down the Storm Lord alone in the distant past. As for how the betrayal played out, I think that the "Marika was originally a Jar" theory offers the best answer. It posits that she was the first and only successful case of the potentates creating a true Saint, thus making her the ideal candidate for apotheosis as one of the Hornsent's living gods and Radagon would be a cast-off part like Saint Trina was for Miquella. It's why she knew Shaman village was empty and why her actions were so "sinful" as it was purely for the sake of vengeance at that point. She would have *seduced* the Hornsent into trusting her by being sacred in their eyes, ascended to godhood with Godfrey as her consort and conquered the enemy Fire Giants. Once that was settled, she *betrayed* them by breaking their tree, draining it's golden sap and eradicating their civilization with fire before veiling their existence, both literally *and* figuratively to make it so they had never even existed. I suspect that the reason the region can still be reached at all is that the game starts at the end of Marika's age/she's dead, and that the current state of reality more or less depends on the Shadowlands having existed at some point in the past. It's where Marika was born and where she ascended, if it just never existed, then neither would she, nor would her Order, or the events that led to the Tarnished being exiled. It's almost an absolute point in time that way. The end result is a place phased out of space and time, cut off from existence... but still technically "there".
@@papanurgle8393 To add, notice how in Elphael there are status of Miquella and Malenia and in Leyndell there are statues of Marika and Radagon, while no first marriage kids are there? My theory is also that together with Morgott and Moghwyn, Godwyn was also "cursed" to be a mermaid, however at that point in time that didnt matter. I suspect that Morgott and Mohg are younger brothers who got shunned after Marika realized they are Hornsent.
@@naughtiousmaximus7853 there's a theory abt godwyn that relates his curse to malformed dragon that might be a reach, but is plausible. i do like that SOTE seem to imply that all Marika's kids curses stemmed, bud from the betrayals she seem to have caused in the scadulands. Marika's buds/spirals/offshoots are paying the price for Marika's alleged sins.
I’m pretty sure there is a hornsent spirit that says they put people inside pots so they can be reborn as saints. The ‘shamans’ apparently had a special property to their flesh that made so it would blend and mix better with others. Essentially the shamans were enslaved and breed with the sole purpose of taking part in this potting ritual. If there was ever a reason for marika to went to exterminate the hornset, revenge for her people seems to be it. Though I don’t know in what way she was allied to the hornset for her to betray them in the first place.
I’m not saying for certain but maybe when she became an emperyean she asked the grandma for advice and guidance and once she became a god in the tower she brought her revenge
given the viewpoint of the hornsent, Marika's betrayal didn't even have to be a true betrayal as they believed that the shamans one purpose was to become saints, and marika going against that could be seen as betrayal as oppressors don't tend to see themselves as the bad guys
@@TheSoijohn it doesn’t matter wether it was true or not. The hornset were still enslaving a group of ppl for the sole purpose of torturing them, mutilating them and stuffing them into jars. The whole thing is unnecessarily cruel, a repeating theme with the hornsent.
@@joaseleneromero9838 I thought that the promise she made in her village was after the crusade. She promised not to do anything so horrible again, then sealed the shadows away.
I remember hearing, years ago before Elden ring was even close to coming out, that it was gonna be a game about white hair versus red hair or some shit.
Yeeee, I remember the leaks now Technically Radagons children have red hair and Godfrey's have white/light gold But that leak is now more likely not relevant anymore
I can’t get over not knowing for sure if Marika retaliated against the hornsent, or if she left to go kill them and returned home to see it empty. For me, the former is super convincing. If her people were being genocidally mistreated, then yeah I get why she went the same route. The nature of the lore is vague, and I wish this was the memory cutscene we got instead lol. I would have liked to see her cast minor erdtree (assuming she did that much later than cutting her braid) instead of hearing Miquella speak three or four lines that don’t add anything to his boss(no consort context).
Thank you honored madman. You are my favorite content maker as of right now. Got me through so much work and tedious tasks. Love your personality. Feel like you’re a friend fr. I’m glad you’re doing something you love. Or it seems that way at least. Keep it up my guy.
Your theory of Bonny village not being the inciting incident makes sense It’s possible that marika learned how to become a god from the horned grandam and somehow sacrificed many hornsent (hornsent corpses make up the divine gate and it’s said that marika betrayed them) taking her to the lands between and making her a god. The hornsent in retaliation jarred her home village because marika herself was out of reach. After becoming an established god with children marika learned of her people’s fate sending messmer as revenge and the rest is history I realize there’s no direct dialogue from ghosts supporting this it’s just a theory
It doesn't really matter. This whole tale is about the cycle of cruelty and violence. It doesn't matter who landed the first hit, ax both sides were scorged to the brim of extinction.
I personally like the theory that Marika became a succesful saint and then betrayed the hornsent. In my opinion if the hornsent slaughtered the shamans as revenge their harmonuosly melding flesh wouldn't matter so much, no?
A little late but holy, what an outstanding video. Didn't even occur to me what you said about the Potentates and the Numen. We don't actually know if Marika betrayed the Hornsent before or after they started stuffing her people into jars. Makes me like the Hornsent even more, by far my favourite faction and culture from the game
awesome vid! the bong rip at the end was a great tribute to the Sacred Bud. gonna write a bit here, cuz i have a theory on marika’s betrayal that i think makes sense but i haven’t really seen discussed. first of all, i wanna say i’m working with the assumption that messmer’s purge was the “betrayal.” anyway, that theory is this: godfrey was originally hornsent before his soul was transposed into a vessel for the ritual at enir-ilim. obviously, we know godfrey founded the crucible knights, an erdtree-sanctioned sect of crucible warriors who fight oddly similarly to bird warriors. stormveil and serosh also show us that godfrey held reverence for storms and lions. and the lord’s bestowal talisman indicates that “the lord of the erdtree casts a long shadow over the lands,” despite there being no other traces of godfrey in the shadow realm. his identification as THE lord of the erdtree makes it likely he was the one marika used in ritual. which is especially weird considering messmer knows what the tarnished are, which pretty definitively places his crusade as occurring after godfrey’s exile but before the twins’ birth. so, the question we should ask is, why did marika only purge the hornsent immediately after removing godfrey, her best enemy-eradicator? and why the ridiculous level of secrecy when her past genocides were committed in broad daylight? godfrey being hornsent makes so much make sense imo. he’s associated with all the same things the hornsent revere. the hornsent felt betrayed bc marika took one of their own as a lord, then turned on them. the purge only happened after his exile because he couldn’t be trusted to purge his own people. and his imminent return to become lord again made marika act with an unusual level of secrecy. it also explains why the crucible knights were EVER allowed- it was part of marika’s making nice with the hornsent and their culture through godfrey. this is all just my two cents but i’m trying to get more people to consider it and maybe find some evidence for/against it that i missed.
Really digging your channel since I found it you do nice breakdowns of theories about the world building. If I could give a bit of hopefully constructive criticism, I remember a few parts where you essentially repeated yourself back to back, and it made me double take and rewind cuz I thought my video skipped. I believed it was in this one and the abyssal woods video. Still it was only a couple of times in long videos and it didn't detract from my enjoyment of them so not really a big issue. Keep up the great work man!
That could be why Godfrey seemingly doesn’t care (at least not as much as he should) about his Exile, I believe Godfrey is from the same village as Marika the Shamen people I think they had Shamens who were In charge and then Warrior like berserkers like the people who wield the beast claws, such a wasted opportunity not to give us Godfrey’s WWE moveset as a kinda Hand-to-Hand / Beast Claw hybrid weapon btw
Man, you alone keep good lore vids alive, such a great vid yet again I like that you're not trying to sound too mystical about it, you're just sharing the lore and your view points just like talking a to a friend, I mad dig that shit G🔥 My fav weapon so far is lowkey Milady, did the whole DLC with that thing since I found it, such a good moveset and a great addition to the weapom classes - I do believe Light Greatswords are here to stay, so too with Great Katanas, backhand blades and thrusting shields
My favourite new spell is the new incantation which is basically like a sonic boom from Street Fighter. It actually has great tracking and hit potential because it is so wide. I accidentally found the seal that powers up these kinds of spells
22:50 I think there is a line from the grandma where she mentions a curse upon Marika and her children, which could have been what caused Morgott and Mogh to be Omens. Also an item description, I forgot which one, states that Marika's Children took the form of those that opressed her (paraphrased from memory) so the Jarring likely took place before Marika's rise to divinity while the Crusade and subsequent genocide of the Hornsent likely took place later more in response to her Children being cursed.
When I think of how Marika sealed Messimer behind to eternally burn and damn the hornsent, I keep relaying her to Zeus. Zeus made sure hid brother Hades remained in the underworld to reign. Zeus has the "You belong to me or you're my enemy" behavior and Marika closely resembles a lot of that Pagan/Polytheisitic religion. I know the devs get a lot of inspiration from religions of all creeds and it always seems that Marika is a Zeus at times. Idk, just had that thought during MY outro
Thanks man for putting out there more possibilities than just "Marika killed the hornsent because they put her people into jars". I also feel like there is more to the story. And I love a good nuanced story.
The fly mold description mentions it can be used as “pot innards.” I think this and the implication that the people caring for those afflicted never got sick points to it being deliberate ailment to create the filler ingredients for “pot sainthood.”
It's really interesting how the fire giants' lore ties in with the dlc. We're a given a surface-level statement about "the Fell God that haunts the sagas of hornsent" in the furnace visage desc at the beginning, kinda just to tell us that the hornsent probably weren't on good terms with the fire giants. And then, actually going to flame peak, we see not only enormous spears impaling the giants, but in the forge we see that the stone is melted into a sort of spiral or whirlwind shape, just like the furnace of the furnace golems. So kind of random, but I think we can piece together some details around Marika's betrayal. Assuming that the spears are Messmer's, it tells us that the war on the Fire Giants likely happened before the shadow realm was sealed away along with Messmer himself (this basically fits with the timeline, since we know both Godfrey and the Erdtree were already around/in the making around the time of the betrayal, going by the Secret Rite Scroll and Minor Erdtree incant, respectively). And, if we're to believe that the giantsforge flame is the same soul-burning flame that the furnaces now use, going by the whirlwind-like carvings and the fact it burns Melina away, then this tells us that Marika was likely doing the hornsent a favor by sealing away the forge's flame. And what do you know, she also personally defeated the Fell God that "haunts" their history. So just putting this all together, we can assume that Marika and the Hornsent were really strong allies at this time. But then, when she reacted to the treatment of the Shamans in Bonny Village, this is probably what is described as the betrayal, especially with how the furnace golems now use the soul-burning whirlwind of flame against the hornsent, and are even decorated like the Fell God they were afraid of (also this mockery wouldn't make since if the Fell God was still an enemy of Marika's she hadn't defeated at the time, more evidence that the giants war happened before the betrayal and massacre of the hornsent). But yeah just little bits of context to add to the dlc story trailer, cool to see how we have to re-think parts of the timeline now Edit: oh and apparently the "mother of crucibles" (as in the very first manifestation of the crucible?) sprouted on giants. So thats wierd, idk if it could be tied to anything
Hell yeah more honored content for the madman militia. I'm great too thanks. Playing more elden today I think that putting newmen into jars came before marikas rise here's my evidence: Marika is confirmed to be from the shaman The ghost next to the tooth whip says being cut up tortured and infected and stuck together in jars is "the reason you shamans were accorded life" so hornsent believe that shamans live only to be tortured and turned into "saints" and the hornsent caterpillar mask prevents the potentates from questioning if it's wrong to do. The big question I have... "Accorded life" and an accord is a deal or contract, so did the hornsent show up and subjugate the shaman or did the shaman show up and agree to become saints and they started to stand up to the murder torture jar treatment? And WHAT ARE THOSE GIANT COFFINS!?
Finally, someone else who has connected the Ancestral Followers to the Hornsent. For some reason whenever I point out the connection people think I'm talking crazy.
holy shit the statue at 31:41 i think is literally the hornsent god that marika seduced , i never saw the statue in game but its erie. The hood the larger figure is wearing looks exactly like what marika pulls the rune from before approaching the gate of divinity
I think the commercial shows the literal birth of the erdtree/elden beast which is why we hear the elden beast theme, I believe she grabs the gold threads from the mother of fingers (which is why it was unable to commune with the “greater will” which is really just the elden ring) and used it to combine the influence of the crucible and the elden ring while leaving the rune of death out of the new erdtree (which was later not enough so she sealed it), maybe the gold absorbed all of the fleshy crucibles life matter and birthed the Elden beast and hurled it to the lands between, this explains why marika kinda just appears in the time line when the erdtree does, because she just showed up one day with a massive gold tree to the outside world and the crucible was just gone with no explanation
@@tokatulu I’m currently stuck with a chicken and the egg situation in lore hunting currently, either the formless mother was found after all the blood and red was purged, or what I’m starting to lean more towards is the idea that she was the original form of the crucible a literal amassing blood pool, or more simply, a crucible of blood, I like this idea a lot because I imagine the bloodfiends worshiping a pool that blesses their people with horns and eventually they channel the spiral which is an aspect of the elden ring into the shape of the formless mother/crucible which made the gates of divinity. Personally still looking but from what I can tell so far, it’s the later.
@@tokatulu the story of the game is actually the exact same symbolism as dark souls, light is time, dark is time unknown, blood is life and chaos, gold is purity that purges all darkness equally. so now you have my lens with you to research in your own gameplay
I’m pretty sure they stated that the creating of the Saint jars was first. The creating of saint jars is to ritualistic and calm for it to be an active hatred after queen marika betrayal
Great catch on the white hair. I did notice that those connected to cursed spirits like Omen and Royal revenants will show the spirits as a discoloured gold and black whereas the spiral spirit magic like from the Grandam will be almost white and black in colour, I think you're correct in suggesting it is connected to the spirits.
I feel as though the timeline fits a little better if merika's people were persecuted first. Firstly it would explain why she is so heavily bigoted against anything related to The crucible. Even The crucible knights who helped her armies were eventually frowned upon. On top of that her treatment of the wars against the hornsent were barbaric even for her standards (even using many things that she saw herself as blasphemous) and it would make sense if she would have revenge to fuel that. Another thing is that Leda describes the hornsent people as being problematic themselves "they weren't saints just on the losing side of a war". I believe that the character hornsent wore that caterpillar mask not because he was a potentate, but because of what it represented, just like how omen hunters wore mask to mock their enemies.
Hmm, you're the first I heard to posit that marika "betrayed" the hornsent first, which then caused them to start jarring her people. I personally don't agree with this since a lot of the evidence and descriptions support jarring people (mainly hornsent criminals) is a traditional thing they have been doing forever. It makes more sense that the hornsent drew first blood prompting Maria's retaliation; otherwise she would have already had the god powers and wouldn't have allowed her fellow shamans to be jarred to extinction. Also the Ancestral followers don't actually have horns they grow, they are wearing animal horns.
Hey honored bozo just letting you know I get excited when I see you’ve uploaded and truly appreciate your content brother, the vibes in your corner of the internet are like a death metal album that’s down to chit to chat and I fuck with that
I love this guy. He delivers the lore in such a personable, hilarious way, like he's just brainstorming it with a friend, instead of delivering it in that boring-ass, essay-style format. Lore hunters need to stop trying to sound like professors. Just gimme.
The white hairs could also mean they have lived for a loooong time. Basically they are very old. It could also be related to the white hairs that are emerging from the caterpillar mask of the potentates. The hairs of caterpillars are painfully allergenic, imagine wearing a mask made of urticant caterpillars...
L 31:03 dude you had me dying here. You downplayed the hell out of the jar theory 😂. Much respect though, this is how I would try and explain Elden ring to a friend of mine so love the delivery!
The main reason you think the making of saint jars is after queen marika is because the man who literally tortured people wants to kill innocent people and not just the guilty people queen marika also does that
I think around the medieval era the self-flagellation that happened during the Black death and the monks or just general devout who practiced it did it with the intent of showing God that they have suffered and under the belief that what they are currently facing on a mass scale is due to a lack of virtue/faith imposed by divinity. This could have started out as the cursed blades thinking that whatever higher divinity is out there that they worship did not think that they have suffered enough to be granted the glory that was being a lion dancer. However if you want to really take a look at it, you can also see it as their views shifting to where they now view what Mesmer's forces are doing only really being allowed to continue by said divinity because of a lack of virtue in those that their society has said that are marked out as divine due to their horns (which would also segway neatly into why they would probably want to imprison some of them. Because you don't want people who are saying that your people deserve annihilation in the face of it because you aren't praying hard enough, it kinda kills morale) Again this is all just a theory
The hornsent definitely have added something substantial to elden rings timeline. I feel this was a group sprouted from the ancestral spirits but "took divinity in their own hands" so to speak. The pots for sainthood, the fanatical worship of spiral horns, the ancient ruins might've first rose around the fall of the eternal cities, numens were scattered and the hornsent prospered. Midra might've been a part of the rebuilding numen, who gave into the frenzied flame, inquisition takes control of the problem and the numen became fully enslaved, "shamans" for sainthood.
I wonder if Marika conquered the fire giants before the hornsent, would be fitting if she gained their fire and used it against the ones who feared it most
That seems to be the case as Messmer's crusade is implied to have happened long after Radagon became King Consort. Howevef I believe Marika to have conquered the Fire Giant in fear that Messmer's power might go wild some day
most likely since messmers crusade seemingly happened relatively recently, for example he's referenced as a big bro figure for radahn so think about what that implies timeline wise
The wicker man guys have fire giant corpses on them already, and dragons. Kinda seems to imply this happened after the wars against the giants and ancient dragons already happened.
anyone else think the fallen hawk dudes look like hornsent that had their horns excised omen-style? they would be able to use ghostflame due to their innate sense for spirits, and them being slaves could imply Marika forced them to explore the eternal cities
I don’t think the beast men worshipped the Erdtree at all, I think they were crucible all the way through, or at least they worshipped their version of the Elden Ring directly. But great work dude, you’re connecting things I never would’ve thought about, like the ancestors being the spirits of Hornsent
It occured to me that Morgott and Mohg were born before Messmer's crusade. The crusade happened at some point between the departure of the Tarnished and some point shortly after the rise of Radagon to Elden Lord, so Omen have likely always been a thing.
I’m pretty sure the statues are supposed be to various of horned species that existed in these land that were study and displayed in the library during their crusade.🐱
Yeah i agree, it just seemed more like trophies than specimens but i do get that they were probably dissecting them n shit. They were even making jars of their own at the shadow keep
Could the Fire Element have been stolen from the Hornsent at some point? If you look at the Divine Beast Lions it seems like they are missing a lion dancer based on how they walk. It also seems like the first phase of no element is like soot being sprayed out, like it should be fire.
What i think happened is that the Gate of divinity is just a giant Jar made of the holiest horn sent and the threads are the strands of crucible gold left in the hornsent. The idea being that if they got enough holy crucible energy together then Marika could then finally ascend to sainthood. The betrayal I think happens after the golden order was created as Marika had no need for the hornsent or Godfrey as he was close to the crucible and they the war for supremacy was over. Seeing they had no need for such a strong army Marika was able to then turn around on the hornsent then completely remove their influence from the lands between to get revenge.
In the primordial epoch before time began, two formidable entities held sway: the Base Serpent and the Ancient Dragons. From the greater Will emerged the majestic Ancient Dragons, while the Base Serpent gave rise to wild beasts. In time, the ancestors of Godfrey appeared. The tutelary deities descended alongside Metyr and the numen. Those who followed these deities became known as the Hornsent. The numen chose to worship the Base Serpent, with the Gloam-eyed Queen ruling beside it. Silence from the greater Will drove the Dragon God, Bayle Mad, into conflict with her elder lord, Placidusax. Bayle fled to the Jagged Peak, while Placidusax sought communion with the greater Will. Their offspring, the Sax Ancient Dragons, retreated into the timeless storm, abandoning beasts and humans alike. Humans began venerating the tutelary deities, leading to the birth of the Hornsent. They sought to create a Saint capable of communing with the greater Will. Midra, the Saint they fashioned, saw runes within the forge flames. Gaining freedom, Midra met Nanaya, and together they bore Marika, known as the Reebus-a soul dual in one form. When Marika's father proclaimed the tenets of the Frenzied Flame from the forge's flames, the Hornsent slew him with golden barbs. Fleeing to the Finger Ruins, Marika encountered her Two Fingers, who imparted the incantations of the greater Will. Marika returned to the Hornsent, offering to teach them to build the Gate of Divinity. Elevated as their Empyrean, she rivaled the Gloam-eyed Queen and her snake-skinned progeny. Marika bore two children, Messmer and Melina. During this era of tranquility after the Dragon Lords' departure, the Crucible Knights and Godfrey sought Marika and her Two Fingers. They begot Morgott and Mohg, blessed by the Crucible. Rumors suggested they might be Radagon and Marika's progeny. Marika and Maliketh slew the Base Serpent and the Gloam-eyed Queen, cursing Messmer and Melina with the serpent's flame. Marika imbued Maliketh with the Rune of Death and used the remaining runes to activate the Gate of Divinity. She took Godfrey as her King Consort and banished the Numen beneath the earth for their service to the Base Serpent and the Gloam-eyed Queen. Marika forged the Erdtree, casting aside the Scadutree with Melina, rendering her formless and burned to prevent the Gloam-eyed Queen's return. Maliketh remained the sole wielder of the Rune of Death. Marika and Godfrey conquered the intervening realms. Radagon and Messmer allied with the Carian descendants of the Numen, who worshipped the moon rather than the Base Serpent. Radagon wed Renalla, while Relanna fell for Messmer. Marika mothered Melina, revealing her plan. Godfrey was sent away with the Tarnished. Radagon and Renalla bore three children: Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn. Radagon returned as Marika's Elder Lord, together having Melania and Miquella. Miquella aspired to make Radahn his consort over Godwyn, who challenged the stars as the last enemy of the Golden Order. Miquella, known as Saint Trina, sought to seduce Radahn. Melania journeyed to the Shadowlands, learning from the Blue Fairy and sealing the rot within the Church of the Bud. Ranni bonded with her mother and the Snow Witch, discovering her lunar connection. Rykard became Lord of Mt. Gelmir and Leyndell's Justiciar, uncovering Marika's past and the Base Serpent beneath the Volcano Manor. Rykard bonded with Messmer over their shared curse, along with their partners Tanith and Relanna. Rykard revealed Marika's history to Messmer, who set out to burn all evidence of the Hornsent and her past, unleashing the rot that Melania had sealed. Morgott and Mohg were imprisoned beneath Leyndell, with Messmer's forces sealed in the Scadu Realm. Melania returned, mastering her decay and becoming Miquella's Blade upon his return to his Miquella persona. Rykard allied with Ranni and Miquella, stealing the Rune of Death to slay Godwyn's soul and Ranni's body, surprising Miquella. In her grief, Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Rykard's betrayal was exposed, and he was banished to Mt. Gelmir after seizing a Great Rune. Marika buried Godwyn at the Erdtree's roots and sent Maliketh to Farum Azula for sanctuary. Each demigod claimed their rune, except Ranni, whose rune remained with her body. Morgott pursued the Black Knives with a rune and repelled Radahn's claim to the throne, while Mohg gained one from his formless mother. Godrick attacked Leyndell with Rykard, but they were repelled by Melania. Godrick fled to Stormveil Castle and began the grafting process. Rykard fed himself to the Base Serpent to revive it, becoming the Lord of Blasphemy. Morgott became the king of Leyndell, secretly ruling through his Night's Cavalry. Messmer burned the Shaded Lands, unleashing the rot. Miquella sought to cure the deathroot infecting the Erdtree and to cure Melania's returned rot. He tried to revive Godwyn and create an Erdtree to sustain everyone, but these efforts failed. Recruiting the first-generation Albanurics created by the Carians, he was drained of blood and aged, sending Melania to kill Radahn. Radahn returned to Caelid to continue fighting the astral beings. Melania and Radahn clashed under Miquella's gaze. Miquella returned to Leyndell and released Mohg, who pierced Marika's womb. In his escape, he was charmed into taking Miquella with him. Melania was carried to the Haligtree. Radahn was left to rot but remained undefeated, holding the stars in stasis. Radagon fused with Marika to heal her, creating the thorns to prevent any of the demigods from becoming Elden Lord. Melina's spirit sought out the Tarnished to lead them to become the Elden Lord and defeat all the other would-be lords.
Damn dude take a breath! Lol no that's actually a pretty good idea of a timeline, some typos I think you meant that Marika births godwyn not Melina twice lol. And as it gets closer to the present day of the game I disagree on a lot more. Like what is the evidence for the spear in marikas side being from mohg?
Heya, this was an awesome video! Just wanna share some thoughts too. I do believe that the Hornsent struck first, bur I don’t think the whole society was responsible for the atrocity of the Shaman Village. I think Marika was blinded by hate and possibly manipulation from Metyr, but she did ultimately homogenize the entire civilization of the Hornsent into one enemy in her mind and ordered them all killed. I do think there is heavy militancy throughout the Hornsent’s culture too, much like the Golden Order. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were one or two older civilizations that also became fixated on their culture’s superiority to the wellbeing of other races. I don’t think it’s an inherent aspect of civilization either, just a reoccurrence from leadership using spirituality or even intellectualism to eradicate hypothetical opponents. That being said, I do think the Bonny Village Potentates were just fucking fanatics. I also wouldn’t be surprised if a sense of indoctrinated superiority encouraged them to do what they did. I bet they weren’t punished or condoned in any significant way by their village either. It is worth noting that the Greater Potentate was so disgusted by his brethren’s actions that he educated on the art of jar making in all ways EXCEPT the sacred ritual of living jar making (as according to an interpretation from TV Tropes). Also, the Hornsent we interact with the most, if he sides with Leda, begs either Marika or Miquella for forgiveness (which I don’t think given what he was subjected to as well he is any way obligated to do, but it’s clear they’re aware of this prior atrocity). Sorry, big fantasy politics ramble. One other thing I wanted to note is that I do think the Lion Guardians are relatives or descendants of the actual Dancing Lions, captured and turned into servants for the Order. Hell, they might be the original ones themselves. Their horn stumps are visible on their models in-game. Last thing, I would be equally unsurprised if the ancestral followers were ancestors to the humans and the Hornsent or are a result of convergent evolution and spirituality regarding horns. Also think the Ancestral Spirits are related to the Divine Beasts in the sense of being blessed by the Crucible. That’s all! Thank you so much for this video, I really do love the different interpretations and connections you make with all this lore. Gets me coming up with my own theories as well! Looking forward to the next one!
The bud church is much older than hornsent culture. If you look at the difference between the ruins in Rauh and Belurat, the hornsent have clean spirals in all their building materials. The ruins in Rauh have a much more organic vining structure that is more like a braid than a spiral. In conjunction with the hornsent archaeologists and greater potentates searching the area, it's most likely that the bud culture is related to Marika's culture of tree people / spirit worship. The hornsent investigated these old ruins, and probably discovered the lineages of the long lived, seldom born women who served there and coopted the spirit magic and into their practice. They enforced a lot of structure and order in order to keep their spiral nice and tidyy.
My theory is the person Marika killed was actually the Gloam Eyed Queen who would use a swaddling cloth to tend to her children (the Godskin) who would wear the skin of the gods (the ones the potentated would flagelate to put into jars to make saints). Once the hornsent learned this, they targeted Numen as new sacrifices for the jars.
Love that you went deeper into the hair topic, including white and black hair. I've noticed that the little blue red blowy worm people also seem to have white hair. There are also a few helms and armor pieces that have white hair, such as some of the banished knights, the warrior's starting helm and Godfrey's helm. Does that mean that Godfrey was a horncent? Also there was impressively little Godfrey in the dlc, like not a peep about him. Finally, outside of the saint's bridge and saint Trina, do we have any other example of a saint in game? I only mention it because I wonder what the horncent meant by turning people into saints with the jars. Are they simply talking about using them for building material? PS: I agree with you that the jar practice we find in game all happened recently/post crusade.
24:00 I saw it mentioned in another video (don't remember where, sadly) that Godrick and Godfrey also have white hair, that doesn't look like the normal white hair from being old. We know Godfrey has some connections to the crucible, so perhaps that's part of it?
cant blame these dudes.. i pray at the altar of the bud
Goated comment
Lol his outro was a huge bong hit lmao 32:59
@@o0_._0oSilly_Goober honored madman intros and outros are legendary
Incredible - worship away, you beautiful son of a gun
Ooh, you're hard
In a sea of Vaati look-alikes, everybody trying to sound super cult and knowledgeable, your videos really stand out. Your mockable style and jokes along a truly thoughtful analysis of the lore is both fun and interesting. Great job!
This shit right here, bro ain't trying to put no mask on, he just rambles about lore the way he feels like it and it goes hard af
Who is vaati
@@cub_q vaa deez nuts in your mouth
Gottem! XD
It’s TH-camr vaati vidya btw
@@cub_qA plagiarist and a sack of shite
Imagine if Morgott had lived in an era where horns were revered. He would have been a damn paragon. Probably one of my favorite base game characters.
🧢
Morgoatt last of all peaks
we love honored madman everybody say thank you honored madman
Thank you honored madman
Thank you Honored Madman!
Thank you Honored Madman!
Thank you Honoured Madman!
Thank you Honored Madman
In regards to Omen nightmares, if what they see is horned figures laughing and whatnot, what if they are seeing their ancestors during times of revelry, but because of their culture/environment they feel haunted by these images as opposed to invigorated by them. Seems to me like Marika is weaponizing generational trauma
Everything she did makes a lot of sense if you can imagine a terrified, traumatized, physically and spiritually violated girl coming out of that jar to celebrating potentates expecting her to be grateful
Then finding out that they successfully had enacted a theocratic genocide condemning her entire culture to a horrific end
Marika left her humanity behind but she was all too human once and you can see it in what she tried to value.
She tried to make a perfect golden family in a perfect safe place, where no one ever had to die and she didnt ever have to lose anyone.
It's the kind of wishful thinking that would keep someone trapped in their grief, a slave to it. It's why part of healing is acceptance, moving on, otherwise its a prison and you lose your own free will to it.
And Metyr knew it.
Eventually Marika did too. With all the grandiosity of a God she had to learn it harder than most.
@timwinterhalter5233 but then, dispate her best efforts, her most golden son - Godwyn - died. And not just died - murdered in a treasonous plot. She turned death off, and it didn't help, didn't stop the loss. That when she broke.
@@alxsblv6164 at some point she must have sobered up and realized what she had become and I think that did it as much as anything
The DLC really fries my brain when it comes to the timeline, especially the birth placement of Melina and Messmer, but one thing I've been cooking lately is that Marika's war against the giants likely preceded the conflict with the Hornsent. After all, the Fell God appears to be a common enemy of them both, so maybe they worked together to thwart the Fire Giants. The "betrayal" kind of merits some sort of relationship between the two groups, maybe the war against the north was that. This is also potentially why the Zamor have been discarded by the Golden Order - they control the ice aspect of the storm, could they be Hornsent warriors? They also used curved swords. Something to consider
Also, the furnace golems that Messmer uses has these large, crude effigies of the Fire Giants with their hair and beards on their legs, implying that it’s set after the war against the giants.
Sorry in advance for the essay, I 100% agree about the Zamor btw, it makes too much sense.
As for the timeline, Gaius' remembrance may give us a clue, as it tells us that he and Messmer were close friends and like older brothers to Radahn. Both born "cursed", which is simply to say that neither were guided by Grace, being a base Serpent and Albanauric respectively. This would mean they were either around during the time of Radagon, or shortly before-hand, perhaps being alive to witness Godfrey's exile, getting dispatched to eradicate the Hornsent shortly thereafter by Marika and her new Consort Radagon. This might explain why the Crucible was still respected by a nascent Golden Order, which was yet flexible enough to accept outside concepts like those of the Carians and Ancient Dragons.
I think that part of the reason the timeline and events are so confusing and weird is because of the veiling/separation of the Land of Shadows has seen the region severed from reality maybe even retroactively. The Great Runes and Elden Ring clearly have supernatural influence on the Logic of the World, a term first brought up in Darksouls lore, which basically amounts to the mechanisms by which a given reality functions. The Golden Order is simultaneously a religion, a form of feudal government *and* a set of metaphysical laws which reality is subjected to. The Elden Ring shapes the logic of the world in a particular fashion based on which Great Runes are slotted in, and how they are configured, which is what allowed Marika's to re-write how Death and Rebirth work by excising Destined Death and the Rune of the Unborn.
The founding principle of the Golden Order is that Marika is the One True God. The faithful overall regard the Erdtree as some kind of eternal, immortal wellspring of life. Both of these concepts are completely contradicted by the existence of the Scadutree, the polytheistic Hornsent and the influence of the other Outer Gods. Though mentioned only a few times in-game, part of Marika's legitimacy stems from the Greater Will's endorsement, something confirmed by the Two-fingers in their selection. A *lot* of the characters, locations and secrets of the DLC directly undermine or jeopardize the Golden Order in fact. We have Ymir denying Godhood as a concept altogether, Metyr not actually enacting the Greater Will's designs as claimed, the genocide of the Hornsent and the abandonment of Messmer and his crusaders. Any of that getting out would be *bad* news for the Golden Order as it would erode the faith of her adherents, which is what powers incantation magic. As a result, she just decided to ret-conned out the parts that ran contrary to her vision/she didn't like.
www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1dslkhg/yet_another_map_overlay/#lightbox
I don't think it's just a coincidence that overlapping the maps shows us that the Erdtree and Scadutree grow in pretty much the same spot, that the center of the Lands Between is in the Shadowlands (we have an actual in-game marker), nor that Jagged Peak end up in Caelid where we find a church of Dragon communion and dragon-barrow. Nor is it just a coincidence that the Church of the Bud overlooks Liurnia, under which is the lake of Rot bubbles and where one finds a scorpion stinger dagger (hello Romina!). If we look at where Agheel lake sits relative to the Cerulean Cost, Liurna's titles as "of the lakes" (plural!) makes a lot more sense too. It's also interesting how Belurat and Enir Illim are so close to Stormveil Castle, where Godfrey is supposed to have taken down the Storm Lord alone in the distant past.
As for how the betrayal played out, I think that the "Marika was originally a Jar" theory offers the best answer. It posits that she was the first and only successful case of the potentates creating a true Saint, thus making her the ideal candidate for apotheosis as one of the Hornsent's living gods and Radagon would be a cast-off part like Saint Trina was for Miquella. It's why she knew Shaman village was empty and why her actions were so "sinful" as it was purely for the sake of vengeance at that point. She would have *seduced* the Hornsent into trusting her by being sacred in their eyes, ascended to godhood with Godfrey as her consort and conquered the enemy Fire Giants. Once that was settled, she *betrayed* them by breaking their tree, draining it's golden sap and eradicating their civilization with fire before veiling their existence, both literally *and* figuratively to make it so they had never even existed.
I suspect that the reason the region can still be reached at all is that the game starts at the end of Marika's age/she's dead, and that the current state of reality more or less depends on the Shadowlands having existed at some point in the past. It's where Marika was born and where she ascended, if it just never existed, then neither would she, nor would her Order, or the events that led to the Tarnished being exiled. It's almost an absolute point in time that way.
The end result is a place phased out of space and time, cut off from existence... but still technically "there".
The corpses of the giants in the mountaintops are impaled by thorns, which is reminiscent of Scadutree incantations.
@@papanurgle8393 To add, notice how in Elphael there are status of Miquella and Malenia and in Leyndell there are statues of Marika and Radagon, while no first marriage kids are there? My theory is also that together with Morgott and Moghwyn, Godwyn was also "cursed" to be a mermaid, however at that point in time that didnt matter. I suspect that Morgott and Mohg are younger brothers who got shunned after Marika realized they are Hornsent.
@@naughtiousmaximus7853 there's a theory abt godwyn that relates his curse to malformed dragon that might be a reach, but is plausible. i do like that SOTE seem to imply that all Marika's kids curses stemmed, bud from the betrayals she seem to have caused in the scadulands. Marika's buds/spirals/offshoots are paying the price for Marika's alleged sins.
I’m pretty sure there is a hornsent spirit that says they put people inside pots so they can be reborn as saints. The ‘shamans’ apparently had a special property to their flesh that made so it would blend and mix better with others. Essentially the shamans were enslaved and breed with the sole purpose of taking part in this potting ritual. If there was ever a reason for marika to went to exterminate the hornset, revenge for her people seems to be it. Though I don’t know in what way she was allied to the hornset for her to betray them in the first place.
I’m not saying for certain but maybe when she became an emperyean she asked the grandma for advice and guidance and once she became a god in the tower she brought her revenge
given the viewpoint of the hornsent, Marika's betrayal didn't even have to be a true betrayal as they believed that the shamans one purpose was to become saints, and marika going against that could be seen as betrayal as oppressors don't tend to see themselves as the bad guys
Cant say if that sainthood is true or a lie too !
@@TheSoijohn it doesn’t matter wether it was true or not. The hornset were still enslaving a group of ppl for the sole purpose of torturing them, mutilating them and stuffing them into jars. The whole thing is unnecessarily cruel, a repeating theme with the hornsent.
@@joaseleneromero9838 I thought that the promise she made in her village was after the crusade. She promised not to do anything so horrible again, then sealed the shadows away.
I remember hearing, years ago before Elden ring was even close to coming out, that it was gonna be a game about white hair versus red hair or some shit.
Yeah i Remember that too 😮
Yeeee, I remember the leaks now
Technically Radagons children have red hair and Godfrey's have white/light gold
But that leak is now more likely not relevant anymore
The Bleach ost and Elden Ring combo goes hard
I was thinking the exact same thing dude
So true, straight up got chills lol
Song name?
@@ghostoil4768 Bleach OST Tensa Zangetsu
This casts the Dungeater im a whole new light. He’s just spreading the Hornsent blessing.
torrent is a spirit horse, the abyssal woods might be the one place where torrent could actually fully die to the flame burning him.....
after i wrote this and unpaused this was the first thing said, impeccable timing
Horned madman
Lol that’s what I typed to search this video
I can’t get over not knowing for sure if Marika retaliated against the hornsent, or if she left to go kill them and returned home to see it empty. For me, the former is super convincing. If her people were being genocidally mistreated, then yeah I get why she went the same route.
The nature of the lore is vague, and I wish this was the memory cutscene we got instead lol. I would have liked to see her cast minor erdtree (assuming she did that much later than cutting her braid) instead of hearing Miquella speak three or four lines that don’t add anything to his boss(no consort context).
Thank you honored madman. You are my favorite content maker as of right now. Got me through so much work and tedious tasks.
Love your personality. Feel like you’re a friend fr.
I’m glad you’re doing something you love. Or it seems that way at least.
Keep it up my guy.
Crazy how Messmer's army clapped all those hornsent warriors.
Your theory of Bonny village not being the inciting incident makes sense
It’s possible that marika learned how to become a god from the horned grandam and somehow sacrificed many hornsent (hornsent corpses make up the divine gate and it’s said that marika betrayed them) taking her to the lands between and making her a god. The hornsent in retaliation jarred her home village because marika herself was out of reach. After becoming an established god with children marika learned of her people’s fate sending messmer as revenge and the rest is history
I realize there’s no direct dialogue from ghosts supporting this it’s just a theory
It doesn't really matter. This whole tale is about the cycle of cruelty and violence. It doesn't matter who landed the first hit, ax both sides were scorged to the brim of extinction.
Is there any evidence for this. It sounds very interesting, even if it is just speculation
@@__Man_ some dialogue/context clues support it but other suggest something else it’s not 100% either way
I personally like the theory that Marika became a succesful saint and then betrayed the hornsent. In my opinion if the hornsent slaughtered the shamans as revenge their harmonuosly melding flesh wouldn't matter so much, no?
@@shobooknight marika betraying the hornsent to become a god… how very berserk
A little late but holy, what an outstanding video. Didn't even occur to me what you said about the Potentates and the Numen. We don't actually know if Marika betrayed the Hornsent before or after they started stuffing her people into jars. Makes me like the Hornsent even more, by far my favourite faction and culture from the game
Oh my god, those Inquisitors DID invent Frenzied Burst!
Horned warriors may not know word "stagger", but in my expirience, they know word "parry" very well.
awesome vid! the bong rip at the end was a great tribute to the Sacred Bud.
gonna write a bit here, cuz i have a theory on marika’s betrayal that i think makes sense but i haven’t really seen discussed. first of all, i wanna say i’m working with the assumption that messmer’s purge was the “betrayal.” anyway, that theory is this: godfrey was originally hornsent before his soul was transposed into a vessel for the ritual at enir-ilim.
obviously, we know godfrey founded the crucible knights, an erdtree-sanctioned sect of crucible warriors who fight oddly similarly to bird warriors. stormveil and serosh also show us that godfrey held reverence for storms and lions. and the lord’s bestowal talisman indicates that “the lord of the erdtree casts a long shadow over the lands,” despite there being no other traces of godfrey in the shadow realm. his identification as THE lord of the erdtree makes it likely he was the one marika used in ritual. which is especially weird considering messmer knows what the tarnished are, which pretty definitively places his crusade as occurring after godfrey’s exile but before the twins’ birth. so, the question we should ask is, why did marika only purge the hornsent immediately after removing godfrey, her best enemy-eradicator? and why the ridiculous level of secrecy when her past genocides were committed in broad daylight?
godfrey being hornsent makes so much make sense imo. he’s associated with all the same things the hornsent revere. the hornsent felt betrayed bc marika took one of their own as a lord, then turned on them. the purge only happened after his exile because he couldn’t be trusted to purge his own people. and his imminent return to become lord again made marika act with an unusual level of secrecy. it also explains why the crucible knights were EVER allowed- it was part of marika’s making nice with the hornsent and their culture through godfrey. this is all just my two cents but i’m trying to get more people to consider it and maybe find some evidence for/against it that i missed.
Really digging your channel since I found it you do nice breakdowns of theories about the world building. If I could give a bit of hopefully constructive criticism, I remember a few parts where you essentially repeated yourself back to back, and it made me double take and rewind cuz I thought my video skipped. I believed it was in this one and the abyssal woods video. Still it was only a couple of times in long videos and it didn't detract from my enjoyment of them so not really a big issue. Keep up the great work man!
I thought those strands at the Divine gate where the Elden ring I didn’t think those were the braid talisman
The bull goat guy is overlooked. Hes like the new havel. We was like some horned blessed warrior
maybe the Storm Lord killed by Godfrey was one of the Hornsent's gods, and Marika sent him away after as part of her cover-up
That could be why Godfrey seemingly doesn’t care (at least not as much as he should) about his Exile, I believe Godfrey is from the same village as Marika the Shamen people I think they had Shamens who were In charge and then Warrior like berserkers like the people who wield the beast claws, such a wasted opportunity not to give us Godfrey’s WWE moveset as a kinda Hand-to-Hand / Beast Claw hybrid weapon btw
I’m pretty sure the reason he got exiled is probably because he loves his omen sons, he probably protested their persecution.
You and Quelaag are my favorite channels for ER lore. Hella down to earth
Also my favorite new stuff from the dlc is definitely the solitude knights set, the sword of night, and Ansbach’s bow. That guy was packing some heat
I feel like Miyazaki and Martin were alluding to the Vietnam War with the southeast Asian themed hornsent and the napalm-like fire of Messmer
my boy brought out the mensis cage for this one - very cool
Man, you alone keep good lore vids alive, such a great vid yet again
I like that you're not trying to sound too mystical about it, you're just sharing the lore and your view points just like talking a to a friend, I mad dig that shit G🔥
My fav weapon so far is lowkey Milady, did the whole DLC with that thing since I found it, such a good moveset and a great addition to the weapom classes - I do believe Light Greatswords are here to stay, so too with Great Katanas, backhand blades and thrusting shields
I’m glad I found your channel a few months back. Your videos never fails to impress!
"the only ingredient she has left is hate"
Love your style, feels cozy and like the cool old uncle. Thank you!
My favourite new spell is the new incantation which is basically like a sonic boom from Street Fighter. It actually has great tracking and hit potential because it is so wide. I accidentally found the seal that powers up these kinds of spells
22:50 I think there is a line from the grandma where she mentions a curse upon Marika and her children, which could have been what caused Morgott and Mogh to be Omens. Also an item description, I forgot which one, states that Marika's Children took the form of those that opressed her (paraphrased from memory) so the Jarring likely took place before Marika's rise to divinity while the Crusade and subsequent genocide of the Hornsent likely took place later more in response to her Children being cursed.
Yeah. I think we know very well who drew first blood.
10:06 frenzied burst also comes out in the form of a spiral
When I think of how Marika sealed Messimer behind to eternally burn and damn the hornsent, I keep relaying her to Zeus. Zeus made sure hid brother Hades remained in the underworld to reign. Zeus has the "You belong to me or you're my enemy" behavior and Marika closely resembles a lot of that Pagan/Polytheisitic religion. I know the devs get a lot of inspiration from religions of all creeds and it always seems that Marika is a Zeus at times. Idk, just had that thought during MY outro
Thanks man for putting out there more possibilities than just "Marika killed the hornsent because they put her people into jars". I also feel like there is more to the story. And I love a good nuanced story.
I just found your channel a few hours ago from that previous video of yours on the hornset... and voila, new upload!
The giant animals in specimen storehouse are probably from Rauh, so older than the hornsent civilization
Just watched the albinauric video and was thinking damn I wish there was a newer one out now. Here I am a satisfied subscriber 😂
Nice touch on the intro my good sir
The fly mold description mentions it can be used as “pot innards.” I think this and the implication that the people caring for those afflicted never got sick points to it being deliberate ailment to create the filler ingredients for “pot sainthood.”
Everytime I see you upload I always gotta light one up lol love your vids
It's really interesting how the fire giants' lore ties in with the dlc.
We're a given a surface-level statement about "the Fell God that haunts the sagas of hornsent" in the furnace visage desc at the beginning, kinda just to tell us that the hornsent probably weren't on good terms with the fire giants. And then, actually going to flame peak, we see not only enormous spears impaling the giants, but in the forge we see that the stone is melted into a sort of spiral or whirlwind shape, just like the furnace of the furnace golems.
So kind of random, but I think we can piece together some details around Marika's betrayal.
Assuming that the spears are Messmer's, it tells us that the war on the Fire Giants likely happened before the shadow realm was sealed away along with Messmer himself (this basically fits with the timeline, since we know both Godfrey and the Erdtree were already around/in the making around the time of the betrayal, going by the Secret Rite Scroll and Minor Erdtree incant, respectively). And, if we're to believe that the giantsforge flame is the same soul-burning flame that the furnaces now use, going by the whirlwind-like carvings and the fact it burns Melina away, then this tells us that Marika was likely doing the hornsent a favor by sealing away the forge's flame. And what do you know, she also personally defeated the Fell God that "haunts" their history.
So just putting this all together, we can assume that Marika and the Hornsent were really strong allies at this time. But then, when she reacted to the treatment of the Shamans in Bonny Village, this is probably what is described as the betrayal, especially with how the furnace golems now use the soul-burning whirlwind of flame against the hornsent, and are even decorated like the Fell God they were afraid of (also this mockery wouldn't make since if the Fell God was still an enemy of Marika's she hadn't defeated at the time, more evidence that the giants war happened before the betrayal and massacre of the hornsent). But yeah just little bits of context to add to the dlc story trailer, cool to see how we have to re-think parts of the timeline now
Edit: oh and apparently the "mother of crucibles" (as in the very first manifestation of the crucible?) sprouted on giants. So thats wierd, idk if it could be tied to anything
ymir video awaited
Hell yeah more honored content for the madman militia. I'm great too thanks. Playing more elden today
I think that putting newmen into jars came before marikas rise here's my evidence:
Marika is confirmed to be from the shaman
The ghost next to the tooth whip says being cut up tortured and infected and stuck together in jars is "the reason you shamans were accorded life" so hornsent believe that shamans live only to be tortured and turned into "saints" and the hornsent caterpillar mask prevents the potentates from questioning if it's wrong to do.
The big question I have... "Accorded life" and an accord is a deal or contract, so did the hornsent show up and subjugate the shaman or did the shaman show up and agree to become saints and they started to stand up to the murder torture jar treatment?
And WHAT ARE THOSE GIANT COFFINS!?
I just put two and two together with the omenkiller build. That’s hard bro.
Finally, someone else who has connected the Ancestral Followers to the Hornsent. For some reason whenever I point out the connection people think I'm talking crazy.
YES YES BLEACH OST NEED A BLEACH SOULS LIKE GAME FR
This has to be the funniest Elden ring lore video I’ve watched 🤣🤣🤣🤣
holy shit the statue at 31:41 i think is literally the hornsent god that marika seduced , i never saw the statue in game but its erie. The hood the larger figure is wearing looks exactly like what marika pulls the rune from before approaching the gate of divinity
Thank horned madman, your monotone approach to the lore is exactly how i explain this stuff to my gf
I think the commercial shows the literal birth of the erdtree/elden beast which is why we hear the elden beast theme, I believe she grabs the gold threads from the mother of fingers (which is why it was unable to commune with the “greater will” which is really just the elden ring) and used it to combine the influence of the crucible and the elden ring while leaving the rune of death out of the new erdtree (which was later not enough so she sealed it), maybe the gold absorbed all of the fleshy crucibles life matter and birthed the Elden beast and hurled it to the lands between, this explains why marika kinda just appears in the time line when the erdtree does, because she just showed up one day with a massive gold tree to the outside world and the crucible was just gone with no explanation
You might be on to something here.
@@tokatulu I’m currently stuck with a chicken and the egg situation in lore hunting currently, either the formless mother was found after all the blood and red was purged, or what I’m starting to lean more towards is the idea that she was the original form of the crucible a literal amassing blood pool, or more simply, a crucible of blood, I like this idea a lot because I imagine the bloodfiends worshiping a pool that blesses their people with horns and eventually they channel the spiral which is an aspect of the elden ring into the shape of the formless mother/crucible which made the gates of divinity. Personally still looking but from what I can tell so far, it’s the later.
@@tokatulu the story of the game is actually the exact same symbolism as dark souls, light is time, dark is time unknown, blood is life and chaos, gold is purity that purges all darkness equally. so now you have my lens with you to research in your own gameplay
I’m pretty sure they stated that the creating of the Saint jars was first. The creating of saint jars is to ritualistic and calm for it to be an active hatred after queen marika betrayal
Great catch on the white hair. I did notice that those connected to cursed spirits like Omen and Royal revenants will show the spirits as a discoloured gold and black whereas the spiral spirit magic like from the Grandam will be almost white and black in colour, I think you're correct in suggesting it is connected to the spirits.
I feel as though the timeline fits a little better if merika's people were persecuted first.
Firstly it would explain why she is so heavily bigoted against anything related to The crucible. Even The crucible knights who helped her armies were eventually frowned upon.
On top of that her treatment of the wars against the hornsent were barbaric even for her standards (even using many things that she saw herself as blasphemous) and it would make sense if she would have revenge to fuel that.
Another thing is that Leda describes the hornsent people as being problematic themselves "they weren't saints just on the losing side of a war". I believe that the character hornsent wore that caterpillar mask not because he was a potentate, but because of what it represented, just like how omen hunters wore mask to mock their enemies.
Hmm, you're the first I heard to posit that marika "betrayed" the hornsent first, which then caused them to start jarring her people. I personally don't agree with this since a lot of the evidence and descriptions support jarring people (mainly hornsent criminals) is a traditional thing they have been doing forever. It makes more sense that the hornsent drew first blood prompting Maria's retaliation; otherwise she would have already had the god powers and wouldn't have allowed her fellow shamans to be jarred to extinction.
Also the Ancestral followers don't actually have horns they grow, they are wearing animal horns.
“…or discord mod.” Ha! 😂😂😂 That was definitely a laugh-out-loud moment 😅
That caught me off guard. I love this style of lore videos.
Hey honored bozo just letting you know I get excited when I see you’ve uploaded and truly appreciate your content brother, the vibes in your corner of the internet are like a death metal album that’s down to chit to chat and I fuck with that
I love this guy. He delivers the lore in such a personable, hilarious way, like he's just brainstorming it with a friend, instead of delivering it in that boring-ass, essay-style format. Lore hunters need to stop trying to sound like professors. Just gimme.
The white hairs could also mean they have lived for a loooong time. Basically they are very old. It could also be related to the white hairs that are emerging from the caterpillar mask of the potentates. The hairs of caterpillars are painfully allergenic, imagine wearing a mask made of urticant caterpillars...
L 31:03 dude you had me dying here. You downplayed the hell out of the jar theory 😂. Much respect though, this is how I would try and explain Elden ring to a friend of mine so love the delivery!
We can always count on the honored madman for fantastic lore
I will say, this dlc makes the sudden influx of Albinarics in Moghs realm feels a lot more creepy tbh. Miquellaaaa
Trying to push you up in the algorithm brother. Keep grindin
You get the like for the bleach music, well done video as always
Dude. Your commentary on the monks. I love you. You are my brother from another mother hahaha
"The only ingredient she has left is hate" gave me a hearty laugh lol
love your videos man!
The main reason you think the making of saint jars is after queen marika is because the man who literally tortured people wants to kill innocent people and not just the guilty people queen marika also does that
I think around the medieval era the self-flagellation that happened during the Black death and the monks or just general devout who practiced it did it with the intent of showing God that they have suffered and under the belief that what they are currently facing on a mass scale is due to a lack of virtue/faith imposed by divinity.
This could have started out as the cursed blades thinking that whatever higher divinity is out there that they worship did not think that they have suffered enough to be granted the glory that was being a lion dancer. However if you want to really take a look at it, you can also see it as their views shifting to where they now view what Mesmer's forces are doing only really being allowed to continue by said divinity because of a lack of virtue in those that their society has said that are marked out as divine due to their horns (which would also segway neatly into why they would probably want to imprison some of them. Because you don't want people who are saying that your people deserve annihilation in the face of it because you aren't praying hard enough, it kinda kills morale)
Again this is all just a theory
With the Blessed Dew Blue Talisman, I like using the Horned Bairn's projectiles as an kinda extra light source, and a way as detecting hidden enemies.
The hornsent definitely have added something substantial to elden rings timeline. I feel this was a group sprouted from the ancestral spirits but "took divinity in their own hands" so to speak. The pots for sainthood, the fanatical worship of spiral horns, the ancient ruins might've first rose around the fall of the eternal cities, numens were scattered and the hornsent prospered. Midra might've been a part of the rebuilding numen, who gave into the frenzied flame, inquisition takes control of the problem and the numen became fully enslaved, "shamans" for sainthood.
I wonder if Marika conquered the fire giants before the hornsent, would be fitting if she gained their fire and used it against the ones who feared it most
This seems likely to me as well. The intricacies arent clear but i agree to the concept
That seems to be the case as Messmer's crusade is implied to have happened long after Radagon became King Consort. Howevef I believe Marika to have conquered the Fire Giant in fear that Messmer's power might go wild some day
most likely since messmers crusade seemingly happened relatively recently, for example he's referenced as a big bro figure for radahn so think about what that implies timeline wise
The wicker man guys have fire giant corpses on them already, and dragons. Kinda seems to imply this happened after the wars against the giants and ancient dragons already happened.
anyone else think the fallen hawk dudes look like hornsent that had their horns excised omen-style? they would be able to use ghostflame due to their innate sense for spirits, and them being slaves could imply Marika forced them to explore the eternal cities
I don’t think the beast men worshipped the Erdtree at all, I think they were crucible all the way through, or at least they worshipped their version of the Elden Ring directly. But great work dude, you’re connecting things I never would’ve thought about, like the ancestors being the spirits of Hornsent
Good video honored madman. Make sure you remember us when you become honored saneman
History of horns eh? Goes back about a couple decade now, i still remember puberty 😂
You always dropping whenever I’m rollin up I think the turtle pope was right
It occured to me that Morgott and Mohg were born before Messmer's crusade. The crusade happened at some point between the departure of the Tarnished and some point shortly after the rise of Radagon to Elden Lord, so Omen have likely always been a thing.
Subscribed as soon as I heard the bong
Hahaha, dude, your jokes are so fucking good. From the Inquisitors’ Reddit mod to the Grandam’s last ingredient, you’re a fucking comedian.
Hopefully there is another dlc. This is the only dlc for elden ring so far and there are many unanswered questions.
I’m pretty sure the statues are supposed be to various of horned species that existed in these land that were study and displayed in the library during their crusade.🐱
Yeah i agree, it just seemed more like trophies than specimens but i do get that they were probably dissecting them n shit. They were even making jars of their own at the shadow keep
@@TheHonoredMadman I think they are trying to "heal" the chamans in the jars in Shadow Keep, not making them
Hornsent are pretty cool. I’ll drop a sub
"Merica betrayed the hornsent"- honored madman
Could the Fire Element have been stolen from the Hornsent at some point? If you look at the Divine Beast Lions it seems like they are missing a lion dancer based on how they walk. It also seems like the first phase of no element is like soot being sprayed out, like it should be fire.
What i think happened is that the Gate of divinity is just a giant Jar made of the holiest horn sent and the threads are the strands of crucible gold left in the hornsent. The idea being that if they got enough holy crucible energy together then Marika could then finally ascend to sainthood. The betrayal I think happens after the golden order was created as Marika had no need for the hornsent or Godfrey as he was close to the crucible and they the war for supremacy was over. Seeing they had no need for such a strong army Marika was able to then turn around on the hornsent then completely remove their influence from the lands between to get revenge.
Clicked for the Elden Ring content
Subbed for the bing rip 😂
In the primordial epoch before time began, two formidable entities held sway: the Base Serpent and the Ancient Dragons. From the greater Will emerged the majestic Ancient Dragons, while the Base Serpent gave rise to wild beasts.
In time, the ancestors of Godfrey appeared. The tutelary deities descended alongside Metyr and the numen. Those who followed these deities became known as the Hornsent. The numen chose to worship the Base Serpent, with the Gloam-eyed Queen ruling beside it.
Silence from the greater Will drove the Dragon God, Bayle Mad, into conflict with her elder lord, Placidusax. Bayle fled to the Jagged Peak, while Placidusax sought communion with the greater Will. Their offspring, the Sax Ancient Dragons, retreated into the timeless storm, abandoning beasts and humans alike.
Humans began venerating the tutelary deities, leading to the birth of the Hornsent. They sought to create a Saint capable of communing with the greater Will. Midra, the Saint they fashioned, saw runes within the forge flames. Gaining freedom, Midra met Nanaya, and together they bore Marika, known as the Reebus-a soul dual in one form.
When Marika's father proclaimed the tenets of the Frenzied Flame from the forge's flames, the Hornsent slew him with golden barbs. Fleeing to the Finger Ruins, Marika encountered her Two Fingers, who imparted the incantations of the greater Will.
Marika returned to the Hornsent, offering to teach them to build the Gate of Divinity. Elevated as their Empyrean, she rivaled the Gloam-eyed Queen and her snake-skinned progeny. Marika bore two children, Messmer and Melina.
During this era of tranquility after the Dragon Lords' departure, the Crucible Knights and Godfrey sought Marika and her Two Fingers. They begot Morgott and Mohg, blessed by the Crucible. Rumors suggested they might be Radagon and Marika's progeny.
Marika and Maliketh slew the Base Serpent and the Gloam-eyed Queen, cursing Messmer and Melina with the serpent's flame. Marika imbued Maliketh with the Rune of Death and used the remaining runes to activate the Gate of Divinity. She took Godfrey as her King Consort and banished the Numen beneath the earth for their service to the Base Serpent and the Gloam-eyed Queen.
Marika forged the Erdtree, casting aside the Scadutree with Melina, rendering her formless and burned to prevent the Gloam-eyed Queen's return. Maliketh remained the sole wielder of the Rune of Death.
Marika and Godfrey conquered the intervening realms. Radagon and Messmer allied with the Carian descendants of the Numen, who worshipped the moon rather than the Base Serpent.
Radagon wed Renalla, while Relanna fell for Messmer. Marika mothered Melina, revealing her plan. Godfrey was sent away with the Tarnished.
Radagon and Renalla bore three children: Ranni, Rykard, and Radahn. Radagon returned as Marika's Elder Lord, together having Melania and Miquella. Miquella aspired to make Radahn his consort over Godwyn, who challenged the stars as the last enemy of the Golden Order. Miquella, known as Saint Trina, sought to seduce Radahn. Melania journeyed to the Shadowlands, learning from the Blue Fairy and sealing the rot within the Church of the Bud. Ranni bonded with her mother and the Snow Witch, discovering her lunar connection. Rykard became Lord of Mt. Gelmir and Leyndell's Justiciar, uncovering Marika's past and the Base Serpent beneath the Volcano Manor.
Rykard bonded with Messmer over their shared curse, along with their partners Tanith and Relanna. Rykard revealed Marika's history to Messmer, who set out to burn all evidence of the Hornsent and her past, unleashing the rot that Melania had sealed. Morgott and Mohg were imprisoned beneath Leyndell, with Messmer's forces sealed in the Scadu Realm.
Melania returned, mastering her decay and becoming Miquella's Blade upon his return to his Miquella persona. Rykard allied with Ranni and Miquella, stealing the Rune of Death to slay Godwyn's soul and Ranni's body, surprising Miquella.
In her grief, Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Rykard's betrayal was exposed, and he was banished to Mt. Gelmir after seizing a Great Rune. Marika buried Godwyn at the Erdtree's roots and sent Maliketh to Farum Azula for sanctuary. Each demigod claimed their rune, except Ranni, whose rune remained with her body. Morgott pursued the Black Knives with a rune and repelled Radahn's claim to the throne, while Mohg gained one from his formless mother. Godrick attacked Leyndell with Rykard, but they were repelled by Melania.
Godrick fled to Stormveil Castle and began the grafting process. Rykard fed himself to the Base Serpent to revive it, becoming the Lord of Blasphemy. Morgott became the king of Leyndell, secretly ruling through his Night's Cavalry. Messmer burned the Shaded Lands, unleashing the rot.
Miquella sought to cure the deathroot infecting the Erdtree and to cure Melania's returned rot. He tried to revive Godwyn and create an Erdtree to sustain everyone, but these efforts failed. Recruiting the first-generation Albanurics created by the Carians, he was drained of blood and aged, sending Melania to kill Radahn. Radahn returned to Caelid to continue fighting the astral beings. Melania and Radahn clashed under Miquella's gaze. Miquella returned to Leyndell and released Mohg, who pierced Marika's womb. In his escape, he was charmed into taking Miquella with him. Melania was carried to the Haligtree. Radahn was left to rot but remained undefeated, holding the stars in stasis.
Radagon fused with Marika to heal her, creating the thorns to prevent any of the demigods from becoming Elden Lord. Melina's spirit sought out the Tarnished to lead them to become the Elden Lord and defeat all the other would-be lords.
Damn dude take a breath! Lol no that's actually a pretty good idea of a timeline, some typos I think you meant that Marika births godwyn not Melina twice lol. And as it gets closer to the present day of the game I disagree on a lot more. Like what is the evidence for the spear in marikas side being from mohg?
Heya, this was an awesome video! Just wanna share some thoughts too.
I do believe that the Hornsent struck first, bur I don’t think the whole society was responsible for the atrocity of the Shaman Village. I think Marika was blinded by hate and possibly manipulation from Metyr, but she did ultimately homogenize the entire civilization of the Hornsent into one enemy in her mind and ordered them all killed. I do think there is heavy militancy throughout the Hornsent’s culture too, much like the Golden Order. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were one or two older civilizations that also became fixated on their culture’s superiority to the wellbeing of other races. I don’t think it’s an inherent aspect of civilization either, just a reoccurrence from leadership using spirituality or even intellectualism to eradicate hypothetical opponents.
That being said, I do think the Bonny Village Potentates were just fucking fanatics. I also wouldn’t be surprised if a sense of indoctrinated superiority encouraged them to do what they did. I bet they weren’t punished or condoned in any significant way by their village either. It is worth noting that the Greater Potentate was so disgusted by his brethren’s actions that he educated on the art of jar making in all ways EXCEPT the sacred ritual of living jar making (as according to an interpretation from TV Tropes). Also, the Hornsent we interact with the most, if he sides with Leda, begs either Marika or Miquella for forgiveness (which I don’t think given what he was subjected to as well he is any way obligated to do, but it’s clear they’re aware of this prior atrocity).
Sorry, big fantasy politics ramble. One other thing I wanted to note is that I do think the Lion Guardians are relatives or descendants of the actual Dancing Lions, captured and turned into servants for the Order. Hell, they might be the original ones themselves. Their horn stumps are visible on their models in-game.
Last thing, I would be equally unsurprised if the ancestral followers were ancestors to the humans and the Hornsent or are a result of convergent evolution and spirituality regarding horns. Also think the Ancestral Spirits are related to the Divine Beasts in the sense of being blessed by the Crucible.
That’s all! Thank you so much for this video, I really do love the different interpretations and connections you make with all this lore. Gets me coming up with my own theories as well! Looking forward to the next one!
The bud church is much older than hornsent culture. If you look at the difference between the ruins in Rauh and Belurat, the hornsent have clean spirals in all their building materials. The ruins in Rauh have a much more organic vining structure that is more like a braid than a spiral. In conjunction with the hornsent archaeologists and greater potentates searching the area, it's most likely that the bud culture is related to Marika's culture of tree people / spirit worship. The hornsent investigated these old ruins, and probably discovered the lineages of the long lived, seldom born women who served there and coopted the spirit magic and into their practice. They enforced a lot of structure and order in order to keep their spiral nice and tidyy.
My theory is the person Marika killed was actually the Gloam Eyed Queen who would use a swaddling cloth to tend to her children (the Godskin) who would wear the skin of the gods (the ones the potentated would flagelate to put into jars to make saints). Once the hornsent learned this, they targeted Numen as new sacrifices for the jars.
Lmfao bro when you got to the painful horns
I just think the Horned, Divine Beast and Divine Bird warriors are really cool
Imprisoned, for ten thousand years. Banished from my own homeland... And now you dare enter my realm? You are not prepared YoU ArE NoT PrEpArEd!
Love that you went deeper into the hair topic, including white and black hair.
I've noticed that the little blue red blowy worm people also seem to have white hair. There are also a few helms and armor pieces that have white hair, such as some of the banished knights, the warrior's starting helm and Godfrey's helm. Does that mean that Godfrey was a horncent? Also there was impressively little Godfrey in the dlc, like not a peep about him.
Finally, outside of the saint's bridge and saint Trina, do we have any other example of a saint in game? I only mention it because I wonder what the horncent meant by turning people into saints with the jars. Are they simply talking about using them for building material?
PS: I agree with you that the jar practice we find in game all happened recently/post crusade.
Great video as always
I think she pulled a griffith at the gate of divinity and what shes holding up is actually the rune of the previous god
24:00 I saw it mentioned in another video (don't remember where, sadly) that Godrick and Godfrey also have white hair, that doesn't look like the normal white hair from being old. We know Godfrey has some connections to the crucible, so perhaps that's part of it?