The interesting thing. I have been building Racing Go Kart engines at the top level for over 30 years and honing is a very important step in building fast engines. We find we have better ring seal with a scattered cross hatch rather then uniform. It seems to create better surface area. I would love to hear from honing experts.
Is that a 2 stroke? Because 2 strokes do not have the same requirements as 4 strokes do. In fact they don't need cross hatch at all since they have little need for oil control. What they need is oil reservoir areas instead of channels. EX: when I worked at Homelite they fine diamond honed the chrome bores for size and shape but use a grit blast for the finish. That gave tiny pits to hold the oil.
I REMEMBER BUYING A MINI BIKE BACK IN THE EARLY SEVENTIES THAT HAD A 3 HORSEPOWER CLINTON ENGINE. IN THE BEGINNING IT WASN'T FAST AT ALL. AND ONE DAY THE HORSEPOWER CAME UP LITERALLY DOUBLING. IT BECAME A ROCKET AND TRIED TO PULL YOU OFF THE SEAT. I WOULD BLOW AWAY ALL THOSE 2.5/3/5 HORSEPOWER TECUMSEH'S. I REALIZED YEARS LATER GETTING INTO CAR ENGINES AND SEEING REBUILDS WHAT HAPPENED WITH MY MINI BIKE. THE CROSSHATCH ACTS LIKE A FILE WHERE THE RINGS WEAR FLAT AGAINST THE CYLINDER WALLS MAKING A POSITIVE SEAL..
@@wannabecarguy THAT MAKES SENSE. IT SEEMS SINCE THE RING IS SMALLER. THE SMALLER HATCH ANGLE CUTS THE RING LESS UNTIL THE RINGS SEAT THEMSELVES. WHERE THE BIGGER HATCH ANGLE HAS MORE OF A CUT WHICH IS BETTER FOR THICKER RINGS.
I work at a facility where we turn axles for locomotives in a lathes and some of the axles we work on, we have to use a surface measuring tool like the one you have in this video to measure the RA of the surface of the axle. That portion of the axle rides in a brass bushing and the surface finish has to be right or it can prematurely wear out the brass bushings. Its cool to see these tools being used in the automotive industry
I have had stone type floating glazebreakers, a micrometer feed Snap-on rigid hone, ball hones and operated a Cylinder King. I always tried to get that crosshatch angle like the Sunnen book said. Well...I observed a WWII era machinist. He got out of the USN after WWII and went to work at White Electric, Gainesville Florida. I knew Pierce in the 70s 80s,90s. He used NO CROSSHATCH at all. His rebores seated quickly no issues ever. Kinda blew my mind. Here is my theory: Crosshatch is important to demonstrate that you have removed all the boring marks. Rings do NOT like bored cylinders with their folded and torn edges....
I’m sure a racer as successful as Greg Anderson will be showing the way he USED to do it. I bet he’s found an even better way and is staying ahead of competition.
This is a science, with proven facts! My 2 cents worth is why doesn't a company like rottler engineer a hone that pauses at the top and bottom, or other words stop the rotation till the stroke reverses?
Just had my Jugs done and he showed me the hone and the grade of the cross hatch . 290 grit and 30 degree . i have 1500 miles and everything is fine . think im little lean grey fluff light pink on the porcelain. thinking of jetting a little more rich it is a EVO 1340 they say a white fluff is the best .
Id like to see this with a comparison of a torque plate honed cylinder and 1 non torque plate honed cylinder under torque. Thanks for the video legends
I want to know what the factorys are doing? My last 3 new trucks have used zero oil. My 5.3 out in drive has 110000 and been 1600 since last oil change and promise if I go check oil its still on full mark. I want my builds to be same way.
The factory finish is based on using the factory rings. There is a relationship between the ring face material and the cylinder surface finish. We explain that in detail in this video: th-cam.com/video/Z5pZriur-cs/w-d-xo.html
Very interesting. What is the reason that we feel that we want hatch and depth to be the same from top to bottom? Might be advantageous to have different parameters at different locations in the bore, to control where the oil sits and moves for example.
I would expect in the future first create a very smooth uniform surface then burn in the valleys with a micro EDM in a precise manner and depth. No hone required.
Great question, the cross hatch actually allows the oil to move up and down the cylinder. Think of it as the pathway for the oil to flow, which provides the lubrication and sealing.
@@aldo6192 actually his answer was very relevant, and directly addressed your hypothetical question. The oil has to move up and down the bore in a controlled manner, and would not happen as efficiently with a bunch of disconnected micro craters that you'd get by shot peeing it. Maybe learn some reading comprehension before you get all self righteous and attempt to throw a tantrum when a 35+ year engine ring design team member tries to explain something to you. His bad for assuming you had a basic understanding of how things work and modern cylinder honing practices. He tried to be nice and encouraged you to think. P.s. if shot peening worked oems would not be spending the time and money they have on ring design and more precise cylinder finish. And lastly, the video actually does a very good job of explaining why things are done the way they are. Wtf is wrong with you people today sheesh. And seriously, if you have all the answers please enlighten us all, drop your years of hard won experience at world class cylinder finishes on us all.
Hi guys, Would the RVK and PVK be the same on all ring thickness or would it be different with a thick ring compared to a thin ring? Next how important would the cross hatch angle be for a 2 cycle engine that the ring does not rotate on the piston. Would we wont around 35deg. or less?
Great questions. The cross hatch angle and surface finish does not change regardless of ring thickness. The type of ring face material can vary the surface finish requirements and the cylinder length will effect the cross hatch angle. We explain these changes in detail in this video: th-cam.com/video/Z5pZriur-cs/w-d-xo.html
@@harleylif1929 2 strokes do not have the same requirements as 4 strokes do. In fact they don't need cross hatch at all since they have little need for oil control. What they need is oil reservoir areas instead of channels. EX: when I worked at Homelite they fine diamond honed the chrome bores for size and shape but use a grit blast for the finish. That gave tiny pits to hold the oil.
So I just finish watching you Regional Conference honing video and wish Id been there. I have a few questions? Would the driven break in oil be good for stock rebuilds? I always used cheep brand non detergent for break in. BTW I sure like watching and learning from You and Don!
Neat, but considering that many guys out there are still having trouble figuring out what ring end-gap to choose, or doing a good job of ring filing in general - this doesn't seem like a tool for anyone other than a honing professional teaching himself to run his equipment consistently - or perhaps a TOP flight racing team searching for that last drop of power. In fact, I did nascar engine development back in the late 2000s. We tested dozens and dozens of different honing techniques in search for that last couple hp. And that's the magnitude of we're talking about here - a couple hp. There's a reason a dude can build a darn good running engine using a dingleberry hone lubed with WD40 in his garage... Not to say there's no good reason for high tech stuff like this - but don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Agreed, a regular dingleball hone works fine with ductile moly rings, but it doesn’t work well with modern steel rings. The goal of this equipment is to enable a professional machine shop to create the correct surface finish for today’s steel ring sets. The old honing process is just not sufficient for these rings.
Funny thing about an average engine vs a world class engine, the world class engine has utilized every tip, every trick to maximize efficiency for it's intended use. 2 hp here, 1 HP there. Before you know it you have an engine that is using less fuel, making more power, running cooler, and lasting longer. If that isn't the proverbial "Forrest" you speak of them what is? I understand what you mean, but for the guy that's scratched and saved for 10 years to build his dream car, this information is very pertinent sir, buy the best you can afford right up front, not just slap some bs together in the garage and wonder why it only lasted 15,000 miles. Anything that is good for efficiency is good for more power, and almost always is good for reliability.
@@b.c4066 So - for that guy that's scratched and saved for 10 years to build a great car: Should he buy this system? Should he also buy a Sunnen power hone and learn to DIY his own block? Or, should he take the block to a good engine machine shop that already knows how to do it - and has perhaps used this hone analyzation tool to improve their skills? Again, I argue this tool is best suited for professional machine shops.
Lake Speed Jr., should the rvk #'s be lower or higher than the rk #'s on surface finish as measured by the profilometer? When i hone, the rk #'s are always higher than the rvk #'s Am i doing something wrong.
The Rvk should be higher than the Rk. If the Rk is higher than the Rvk, the honing process and abrasives should be changed. We did another video with Greg Anderson that shows our recommended process. th-cam.com/video/Jehtgk5cd3A/w-d-xo.html
I just wish we all had access to better 'off the shelf' tools rather than crappy Chinesium deglazers and dingle balls.. the poor man's two-step home hone. Never as good as a proper honing machine but nothing 8hrs and very sore arms can't get 😜
Never knew Total Seal made commercials
This video feels like a late night infomercial.
It's a 24/7 infomercial
Back when I was a engine Machinist I would hone blocks with conventional stones and then use a Sunnen PHT Plateau Honing brush to finish out the job!
Those brushes work!
Common folk are tired of using smartphones for everything, I'm glad someone out there is making the right tool for the job
Thanks!
Smokey Yunick was most concerned about crosshatch pattern.
It certainly matters!
The interesting thing. I have been building Racing Go Kart engines at the top level for over 30 years and honing is a very important step in building fast engines. We find we have better ring seal with a scattered cross hatch rather then uniform. It seems to create better surface area. I would love to hear from honing experts.
Here's the link to the video we did with Greg Anderson on this topic. th-cam.com/video/IUJDrHR1qsc/w-d-xo.html
Is that a 2 stroke? Because 2 strokes do not have the same requirements as 4 strokes do. In fact they don't need cross hatch at all since they have little need for oil control. What they need is oil reservoir areas instead of channels. EX: when I worked at Homelite they fine diamond honed the chrome bores for size and shape but use a grit blast for the finish. That gave tiny pits to hold the oil.
I REMEMBER BUYING A MINI BIKE BACK IN THE EARLY SEVENTIES THAT HAD A 3 HORSEPOWER CLINTON ENGINE. IN THE BEGINNING IT WASN'T FAST AT ALL. AND ONE DAY THE HORSEPOWER CAME UP LITERALLY DOUBLING. IT BECAME A ROCKET AND TRIED TO PULL YOU OFF THE SEAT. I WOULD BLOW AWAY ALL THOSE 2.5/3/5 HORSEPOWER TECUMSEH'S. I REALIZED YEARS LATER GETTING INTO CAR ENGINES AND SEEING REBUILDS WHAT HAPPENED WITH MY MINI BIKE. THE CROSSHATCH ACTS LIKE A FILE WHERE THE RINGS WEAR FLAT AGAINST THE CYLINDER WALLS MAKING A POSITIVE SEAL..
I was taught that thinner rings are better for high rpms and mitigating ring flutter. But also require small hatch angle. But that is an awesome tool.
@@wannabecarguy THAT MAKES SENSE. IT SEEMS SINCE THE RING IS SMALLER. THE SMALLER HATCH ANGLE CUTS THE RING LESS UNTIL THE RINGS SEAT THEMSELVES. WHERE THE BIGGER HATCH ANGLE HAS MORE OF A CUT WHICH IS BETTER FOR THICKER RINGS.
I work at a facility where we turn axles for locomotives in a lathes and some of the axles we work on, we have to use a surface measuring tool like the one you have in this video to measure the RA of the surface of the axle. That portion of the axle rides in a brass bushing and the surface finish has to be right or it can prematurely wear out the brass bushings. Its cool to see these tools being used in the automotive industry
Very nice. Really helps beginning machinist & veterans to see their work & keep detailed records to learn from.
You bet!
I have had stone type floating glazebreakers, a micrometer feed Snap-on rigid hone, ball hones and operated a Cylinder King. I always tried to get that crosshatch angle like the Sunnen book said. Well...I observed a WWII era machinist. He got out of the USN after WWII and went to work at White Electric, Gainesville Florida. I knew Pierce in the 70s 80s,90s. He used NO CROSSHATCH at all. His rebores seated quickly no issues ever. Kinda blew my mind. Here is my theory: Crosshatch is important to demonstrate that you have removed all the boring marks. Rings do NOT like bored cylinders with their folded and torn edges....
We got the advertisement for the finish. How about how to achieve the best finish. Stones and lube used during honing.
Amen!
Here’s the video that shows the exact process! th-cam.com/video/IUJDrHR1qsc/w-d-xo.html
Here’s the video that shows the exact process! th-cam.com/video/IUJDrHR1qsc/w-d-xo.html
I’m sure a racer as successful as Greg Anderson will be showing the way he USED to do it.
I bet he’s found an even better way and is staying ahead of competition.
@@stephenhowe4683 That's actually the process they use to hone the pro stock blocks.
This is a science, with proven facts! My 2 cents worth is why doesn't a company like rottler engineer a hone that pauses at the top and bottom, or other words stop the rotation till the stroke reverses?
The Rottler can reverse direction if programmed to.
as excited as I'd be at my age to discover new tech. lol
Thanks for watching!
excellent video
Thank you very much!
I tried this , but the flux capasitor got cross-mojination . I forgot about the 1.21 gigawatts , and now the foo-foo valves won't balance ..... UGH !
LOL
Just had my Jugs done and he showed me the hone and the grade of the cross hatch . 290 grit and 30 degree . i have 1500 miles and everything is fine . think im little lean grey fluff light pink on the porcelain. thinking of jetting a little more rich it is a EVO 1340 they say a white fluff is the best .
Id like to see this with a comparison of a torque plate honed cylinder and 1 non torque plate honed cylinder under torque. Thanks for the video legends
I want to know what the factorys are doing? My last 3 new trucks have used zero oil. My 5.3 out in drive has 110000 and been 1600 since last oil change and promise if I go check oil its still on full mark. I want my builds to be same way.
The factory finish is based on using the factory rings. There is a relationship between the ring face material and the cylinder surface finish. We explain that in detail in this video: th-cam.com/video/Z5pZriur-cs/w-d-xo.html
Cool technology!
Thanks!
Amazing technology for sure
Very interesting. What is the reason that we feel that we want hatch and depth to be the same from top to bottom? Might be advantageous to have different parameters at different locations in the bore, to control where the oil sits and moves for example.
There are some advantages to having the depth and cross hatch angle change from top to bottom, but that is harder to do.
I like graphs!!!😊
I would expect in the future first create a very smooth uniform surface then burn in the valleys with a micro EDM in a precise manner and depth. No hone required.
would be interesting to see what a shot-peened surface would be like compared to a cross-hatched surface on the performance of an engine?
Great question, the cross hatch actually allows the oil to move up and down the cylinder. Think of it as the pathway for the oil to flow, which provides the lubrication and sealing.
@@aldo6192 actually his answer was very relevant, and directly addressed your hypothetical question. The oil has to move up and down the bore in a controlled manner, and would not happen as efficiently with a bunch of disconnected micro craters that you'd get by shot peeing it. Maybe learn some reading comprehension before you get all self righteous and attempt to throw a tantrum when a 35+ year engine ring design team member tries to explain something to you. His bad for assuming you had a basic understanding of how things work and modern cylinder honing practices. He tried to be nice and encouraged you to think. P.s. if shot peening worked oems would not be spending the time and money they have on ring design and more precise cylinder finish. And lastly, the video actually does a very good job of explaining why things are done the way they are. Wtf is wrong with you people today sheesh. And seriously, if you have all the answers please enlighten us all, drop your years of hard won experience at world class cylinder finishes on us all.
I reckon if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it, lol.
LOL
Hi guys, Would the RVK and PVK be the same on all ring thickness or would it be different with a thick ring compared to a thin ring? Next how important would the cross hatch angle be for a 2 cycle engine that the ring does not rotate on the piston. Would we wont around 35deg. or less?
Great questions. The cross hatch angle and surface finish does not change regardless of ring thickness. The type of ring face material can vary the surface finish requirements and the cylinder length will effect the cross hatch angle. We explain these changes in detail in this video: th-cam.com/video/Z5pZriur-cs/w-d-xo.html
@@TotalSeal Thank you so much. You two have answered a lot of questions I have had and thought about.
@@harleylif1929 2 strokes do not have the same requirements as 4 strokes do. In fact they don't need cross hatch at all since they have little need for oil control. What they need is oil reservoir areas instead of channels. EX: when I worked at Homelite they fine diamond honed the chrome bores for size and shape but use a grit blast for the finish. That gave tiny pits to hold the oil.
@@billshiff2060 Was that with a with Nikasil? My engines have sleeves.
@@harleylif1929 no it was chrome then but the surface should not be different for Nikasil.
So I just finish watching you Regional Conference honing video and wish Id been there. I have a few questions? Would the driven break in oil be good for stock rebuilds? I always used cheep brand non detergent for break in. BTW I sure like watching and learning from You and Don!
Thanks for watching! Yes, the Driven break-in oil is good for stock rebuilds.
Driven oils also have High Zinc content , important for cam break in especially with flat tappets. At lest in the oils I got from them.
Neat, but considering that many guys out there are still having trouble figuring out what ring end-gap to choose, or doing a good job of ring filing in general - this doesn't seem like a tool for anyone other than a honing professional teaching himself to run his equipment consistently - or perhaps a TOP flight racing team searching for that last drop of power.
In fact, I did nascar engine development back in the late 2000s. We tested dozens and dozens of different honing techniques in search for that last couple hp. And that's the magnitude of we're talking about here - a couple hp.
There's a reason a dude can build a darn good running engine using a dingleberry hone lubed with WD40 in his garage...
Not to say there's no good reason for high tech stuff like this - but don't lose sight of the forest for the trees.
Agreed, a regular dingleball hone works fine with ductile moly rings, but it doesn’t work well with modern steel rings.
The goal of this equipment is to enable a professional machine shop to create the correct surface finish for today’s steel ring sets. The old honing process is just not sufficient for these rings.
Funny thing about an average engine vs a world class engine, the world class engine has utilized every tip, every trick to maximize efficiency for it's intended use. 2 hp here, 1 HP there. Before you know it you have an engine that is using less fuel, making more power, running cooler, and lasting longer. If that isn't the proverbial "Forrest" you speak of them what is? I understand what you mean, but for the guy that's scratched and saved for 10 years to build his dream car, this information is very pertinent sir, buy the best you can afford right up front, not just slap some bs together in the garage and wonder why it only lasted 15,000 miles. Anything that is good for efficiency is good for more power, and almost always is good for reliability.
We couldn't agree more!@@b.c4066
@@b.c4066 So - for that guy that's scratched and saved for 10 years to build a great car:
Should he buy this system? Should he also buy a Sunnen power hone and learn to DIY his own block?
Or, should he take the block to a good engine machine shop that already knows how to do it - and has perhaps used this hone analyzation tool to improve their skills?
Again, I argue this tool is best suited for professional machine shops.
is there anywhere on the net where we can ask some questions? im sure you have tons of experience honing.
Contact Rottler for honing questions
More information is generally a good thing.
Did you have to make it seem So much like a cheap infomercial?
Sorry about that. Our enthusiasm got carried away...
Stylus = record player = 8 different tracks. Is the sound going to be awesome or mediocre?
LOL
Lake Speed Jr., should the rvk #'s be lower or higher than the rk #'s on surface finish as measured by the profilometer? When i hone, the rk #'s are always higher than the rvk #'s Am i doing something wrong.
The Rvk should be higher than the Rk. If the Rk is higher than the Rvk, the honing process and abrasives should be changed. We did another video with Greg Anderson that shows our recommended process.
th-cam.com/video/Jehtgk5cd3A/w-d-xo.html
They also invent micrphones so you dont have to SHOUT!!!
Billy Mays would approve of this commercial!
How much $?
The complete package is $5,800
I started watching but the police call me. My mother was robbed and they took her to the hospital- oh well
Whoopdee doo
Start sending tweaker out for doughnuts when you shoot your videos.
Then I could actually watch and listen to your videos!
Who are you yelling at?
I just wish we all had access to better 'off the shelf' tools rather than crappy Chinesium deglazers and dingle balls.. the poor man's two-step home hone. Never as good as a proper honing machine but nothing 8hrs and very sore arms can't get 😜
LOL
how about hatch view camera use as part cracking scan like ben showed the cracked valve lock in EFI University, dose him try it yet?
It could do the same thing. Great thought!