Captain Erwin Rommel of the HMS Hindenburg clutched the wheel of the Airship. When out of the corner his eye he saw it... "Mein Gott!" Three fighter squadrons of M-E 262's we're tailing him. It was days like this when he should of listened to his father. And joined the army. -Exspept from "To Hell and Bach" written by S.M Turtledove
1:07:14 those Doom novels are hilarious because like halfway through the second out of four books they become basically religious propaganda for the Mormon church. Doomguy goes to bed reading the Book of Mormon and they quote it’s scripture Luke one liners when killing demons. After demons take over earth the last holdouts of humanity are locked up in the grand Mormon temple in Salt Lake City. I am making none of this up.
My favorite story in the book is probably "Aristotle and the Gun", where this guy gets a time machine and is like, "Wow, Aristotle tried science but was really bad at it, which held back scientific advancement, so I'll go back in time and teach Aristotle modern science so the present will be awesome." So he goes back in time and tries, but he so overwhelms Aristotle with proof of how wrong Aristotle was that Aristotle just decides, "Wow, this guy shows me I completely suck at science. I'm just going to give up and write more books about music" So when the time traveler goes back to the present, he sees that the new world is really scientifically primitive, because even though Aristotle got a lot of science wrong, the fact he tried encouraged other people later on in history to try too, and eventually learn stuff.
Imo I feel one issue with some of these stories is that they seem to posit that how things went IRL was the best possible outcome. Like, why would radical Republicans lead to martial law all the way into the 1940s? "Complete disenfranchisement for southern whites" feels like something that Confederates would make up to attack Republicans, why would they do something that drastic? Why does the US not existing in the other story make everything a hellhole with so much technological stagnation?
The alternate history scenario exists in its own world where it is to be assumed correct in that universe. The story sets up why the south is under martial law.
Best part of a Talkernate History episode, is reading through the 8 pages of browser tabs you've had to open afterwards. That's the true power of the tangent
Huge long post here, for the discussion around the 22:00 mark, about mental health/psychopathy and all of that. The terms "psychopath"/"sociopath" are pretty nebulous. They're used in everyday speech of course, and I believe they're used at times within the legal world/during actual trials, but there's not really an agreed-upon definition within psychology and especially nowadays the terms are generally avoided by clinical psychologists. In any case, they're sort of catch-all terms to describe the presence of a number of other traits, like a proclivity towards violence and severe antisocial personality disorder, which is usually marked by an individual who feels a limited amount of empathy towards other people. In severe cases, especially when combined with other disorders, like schizophrenia or paranoid personality disorder, people might not even believe/are capable of understanding that other humans have their own thoughts, feelings, or lives of their own. Might think that other people are automatons, in a sense. So, anyway, a psychopath certainly would have a severe mental illness, by definition. Though as you guys get into, the entire idea behind the insanity plea is that a person's mental illness has made it that they didn't realize what they were doing or are unable to understand that they did something wrong. And generally, with antisocial personality disorder, particularly severe cases of it, that understanding of what is right and wrong is still present. A number of people with the disorder try to counteract it by focusing in on that. They're basically like "I can't empathize with this person, I cannot understand the emotions they're experiencing, and I can't feel anything if I lie to them or hurt them physically or emotionally, but I understand logically that what I'm doing is wrong and I can understand that even if I struggle with empathizing with them, there is something going on for them." So, yeah, something like that likely wouldn't be successful with an insanity plea. And even then, in the US, insanity defenses are very rarely attempted, and they succeed in something ridiculous, like 1% of the time they are attempted. Though, it also does bring up other issues and questions. There has been debate over how much something like antisocial personality disorder is genetically or environmentally driven (and that's the origin of the two terms "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", based on whether hereditable traits or the environment was the cause), but nowadays its considered to be largely genetic in base, with actual differences in brain structure and functioning. Which then raises the question as to how to hold people responsible, when they had no choice in what disorders they were born with. It's why, personally, I'm not an advocate for the death penalty, though also not an advocate for something like a 20-30 year max on prison sentences. Life imprisonment is, in my opinion, the best thing to do with people like Breivik. Hell, in the US, with the costs of the various appeal processes, it's a lot cheaper than pursuing the death penalty too.
tbh I think it's a lot harder to find an argument _for_ the death penalty that isn't just built on tradition and emotion. I don't like the state having that power, and for it to have any appropriate due process, the costs will far outweigh just socially isolating the person in question. All I ever really get from the other side is emotional arguments.
Leads to another question since not everyone with anti social personality disorder is going to be a serial killer or terrorist. Things are rarely so simple in psychology.
44:00 Walmart, Amazon and pretty much every other multinational company runs on centralized planning. It's highly competitive and efficient. 1:00:40 Smallpox was contracted to humans from domesticated Livestock. Therefore, the native americans from that story probably contracted smallpox from their domesticated animals too, and therefore were immune as well.
I ponder if the steel prices have drop significantly, that the A team over here have uploaded a new talkernate episode relatively to a month compared the usual schedule of a decade
Perhaps, I work in manufacturing and at the latest meeting there were discussions about the market tightening because of recession and inflation fears. So when manufacturing slows down, commodity prices i.e. steel decline as a result and many facilities work fewer hours or produce less units.
@@michaelthayer5351 very interesting, but I hope that this information is not confidential. Because it sounds like the high ups information if I may say; I would not want you to get into any trouble per say, however thank you for the insight.
@@romanreyes3215 I'm fairly certain it isn't, besides anyone with an ounce of common sense should realize that if inflation runs red-hot at 8-10% for more than a quarter its bound to lead to demand destruction, and hence market tightening as more money is allocated to staples leaving less for discretionary.
Of those, probably TNO. But it isn't likely to happen soon for a couple reasons. For one, the game's canon keeps changing. I made a bunch of notes half a year ago, and now a lot of the things I wanted to touch on aren't even in the game anymore. Spooky bag-on-head man, for instance. I'd have to go back in and devote some time to learn what's different. Plus, Matt is a bit cold on doing video game episodes. Its definitely on the list of possibilities, but there's 3 or 4 other subjects higher in the pecking order.
@@TalkernateHistory also there's the possibility of your episode becoming out dated with updates. Kaiserreich has completely changed China since the episode you did on it.
@@TalkernateHistory yeah that’s completely understandable. Granted I think it’s calmed down because those Lord changes only happened because half the mod team left. But even then they are still changing some stuff so probably should wait a year or two.
Every Talkernate history episode is a treasure to savor. Neither of them are full time content creators so every episode we get is them stealing time just for us~
The talk about New Order: Last Days of Europe not getting an episode really made me wish for another Max-only episode like Deep Blue Fleet. Maybe a little bit shorter than regular ones and about media Matt really isn't interested in like video games.
Speaking of RPG-source books, they also make a great possibility for alternate history. Mostly not a traditional Alternate History, as they usually involve magic and stuff like that, but they are often a pretty good read for some lighthearted fun. Looking at you, Cyberpunk 2020 rulebooks
I think an episode or series about forgotten or lesser known U.S. military conflicts and wars would be interesting. You could do some on the Barbary Wars or the Mexican Border War in the 1910’s.
@@TalkernateHistory Do you guys have a segment where you decide what world you would want to stay in most? My guesses are Nudist world, or the one where 90% of men are wiped out and the remainder are stuck in breeding camps.
@@bobbinsthethird We don't directly address that in the episode, unfortunately. It's a tricky question because Sliders doesn't really have any utopias, there's always big downsides to every seemingly nice world. Like on breeder world, you don't have any freedom and half the world is dead. And on Nudist world, there's snow on the ground in that scene, which implies you're supposed to be nude even in winter weather, which sounds terrible. The world where no one can lie is an interesting idea. I'd be curious to see if a society like that could even work. Probably not, but it would be interesting to find out.
Max you have killed it this year. We truly don't deserve this. PS. 1:05:25 I love how you guys hate stupid fantasy reasoning for stuff. The simpler explanation is 9 times out of 10 the correct definition.
The -yan is Armenian. Most Armenian surnames end in a -yan, like as you said Mikoyan, Pashinyan or Kardash(y)ian. It's a fairly simple way of telling someone's ancestry and is known throughout the former Soviet space as many Armenians left Armenia proper in a diaspora. Which is why Armenia has more citizens abroad than in the mother country, being mainly concentrated in America, Russia and France.
Good episode, although I firmly disagree with the conclusion you draw from "Must and Shall". The idea that a proper Reconstruction under the Radical Republicans would be some kind of authoritarian dystopia is akin to Lost Cause 'historiography'. I really hope that's not what Turtledove was going for himself. In fact, if you want to see what a regime of civil disenfranchisement and oppressive policing would do to the South, you only need to look at OTL. The fact that you're using real-life images from riots in the 1960s to depict this alternate scenario is just one indication of that. Honestly, the failure of Reconstruction to stave off the re-entrenchment of white supremacy in the South may be the most infamous case of winning a war but losing the peace. Even the most Radical Republican scenario, if it had created a long-lasting enmity towards Southern whites, would not have led to some kind of reverse Jim Crow. That's a good example of projection on the part of the oppressor class; what if they'll do to us what we did to them? You see it a lot in these sorts of histories.
I felt the same way. It was so weird how they were acting like OTL's reconstruction was the Best Possible Timeline™ and that any alternate history that tries to more fully remove the remnants of the Confederacy from the south is doomed to backslide into authoritarianism. I doubt that that was their intention but it was still odd.
Thank you, that entire story felt incredibly suspect and I’m glad I’m not the only talkernate history fan to see it. Alternate history can sometimes be a refuge for lost cause apologia and this one seems like it hit all the usual beats. Also the idea that IRL reconstruction was the “good” outcome is very old fashioned.
I know you guys have already covered "Wild Wild West" but have you ever considered any other pieces of alternate history that take place in the American frontier? Like maybe what if the West was never tamed or what would the West be like at the South won the civil war?
That could be interesting. Something that comes to mind is, "what if there was no Mexican war" and the Southwest is a series of independent countries that seceded from Mexico. Or it's still run by Mexico, and it's a terribly-run anarchic wild place. That could make an interesting Western alternate history story.
For the record I fully agree with Max on the death penalty. You look at some people and oh no they aren't going to be reformed and they are fully aware of there actions. There's a particular case in England from the 60s, the Moors Murder case, that is my go to these people are awful and really should have died. There isn't a good argument for why Myra Hindley wasn't executed, beyond the fact the death penalty was abolished weeks before her trial. Oh well just an aside, my college thesis paper was on her. On a funnier note I feel called out because I owned all the Star Wars tech history books. I mean hell I owned the Star War history book from 400000 BBY to 40 ABY.
I don't think certain people can be reformed. Obviously. The question is whether the state killing someone who is already detained and completely at its mercy is a power it should be able to have. Death row existing for a few exceptional people is a threat to anyone who is accused of a serious crime. Recent supreme court decisions in the US have also made it harder to appeal a death sentence, with the process that resulted in ~30% (presenting evidence not originally presented at time of trial in an appeal that the defendant's defense was inadequate) of all stays of execution being banned. As for the argument of the cost of keeping prisoners alive: it is literally less than the cost of appeals + execution. A long process that exists so the state isn't fast-tracking killing people with limited due process. Other than some emotional gut reaction what argument is there _to_ have a process for the state to kill people?
@@CraftsmanOfAwsomenes Its a complicated question as you are right the financial cost is a problem and there's the old issue of potentially killing innocent people. I personally think it should be considered for only a very small percentage of people, the ones with multiple murders and where there is no doubt of guilt. The before mentioned Moors Murders was so infamous because one of the murders was recorded. Anything less then absolute confidence should probably not receive the death penalty.
@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez Thank you for replying and considering my position. Usually when I have this discussion it's with family members who think anyone accused should immediately get the firing squad, so hearing your opinion was really refreshing.
@@CraftsmanOfAwsomenes No problem, I go back and forth quite a bit on the issue but usually return to this point. My thesis paper in college was on the history of female serial killers so I remember quite a few awful people. But I'd also add that even if one is in favor, its best to not take pleasure in the act and make it as painless as possible. Quick and be done with it, yeah it might be amusing to note that someone like HH Holmes got a botched hanging, but in the moment its best to get it right.
Never thought I’d see the day where Norfolk southern was shown in a talkernate history video. Also side note it’s funny that in this communist USA there’s still independently owned railroads but in real life the gov nationalized the passenger rail operations back in the 70’s (aka Amtrak) and some of the major freight railroads too (aka conrail)
that picture of Nicolas Cage is from Little Tokyo in Los Angeles, he's like a regular there above ground tombs are pretty common in island countries, there's a lot of them in the philippines
If you guys need any more recommendations, Sea Lion Press has some wonderful (and cheap!) works available, including some short story compilations. I don't mean to shill for them, I just think some of their books are really good.
@@TalkernateHistory My main recommendations would be their Look to the West series (which is way too ambitious), Grapeshot and Guillotines (short stories about revolution), and the new "Chasing Shadows" (it's aboutt Smedley Butler!).
Idk if you will see or read this comment Talkernate History, but I was thinking of creating an anthology of alternate history short stories like Mike Resnick did in the late 80s, early 90s. I wanted to know if you had any advice on how to organize the anthology. Things to avoid doing that you didn't like in the books you've reviewed (No scifi allowed in my collectio) or publishers who would likely be imterested in publishing the book when it's completed. The theme is alternate assassinations. This can mean people surviving attempts on their life, people dying instead of surviving, or someone else entirely being killed instead of the main character/figure. Anyways, I want to thank you if you read this far in my comment and I love your vids!
Because the theme is so broad, I think it would be best to have a very wide range of story settings. The classic choices for alternate assassinations would be Lincoln, JFK, and other American presidents, and that's fine. But it shouldn't be solely America-centric. Feature alternate assassinations from around the world, and feature well known and lesser known events. Like: Thatcher getting blown up in that hotel, or Juvenal Habyarimana not getting his plane shot down. Also alternate assassinations from the pre-modern era, Julius Caesar would be a classic example of this sort of thing. An important thing that I think contributed to the success of the Resnick volumes, unrelated to their content, is their cover art. I'd definitely commission an artist to create some eye catching, maybe a bit absurd, art. Something like Lincoln in the booth at Ford's theater, turning and pointing a gun at John Wilkes Booth. Something that instantly conveys to the viewer that this is about alternate worlds.
As a black person, I find Must and Shalls premise interesting. I'm for that future especially since the Jim Crow south was so brutal towards black people.
What if U.K. Parliament decided the Union Navy's stop and seizure of RMS Trent could not be ignored, and not only gave the CSA diplomatic recognition, but declared war on the USA?
Nick Cage's character would absolutely have been charged with manslaughter in that case! He willingly entered a dangerous situation when he had the opportunity to leave, like his wife wanted him too, but he just had to approach those guys. He escalated the situation which caused a fight to happen, so it was his fault. The part about different standards is movie logic, but the idea that someone committing a crime because they got into a fight when they chose not to just leave when they could have is totally sound. th-cam.com/video/jcqSb7W-c2w/w-d-xo.html
Have you guys checked out 'The Atlantropa Articles' by Cody Franklin (the guy who runs AlternateHistoryHub)? It had a sort-of similar premise to 'How I Lost the Second World War...' but is set many years after "the war."
The best joke in Talkernate History... history was the deadpan delivery of "Before Giuliani had all the homeless people rounded up and shot."
Now I can go to the M&M store without being accosted by the roving gangs of hoodlums from death wish.
The dry comment about the M&M store being fucking worthless had me rolling.
AND THANK GOD HE DID
We must really be living in an alternate reality if the boys drop an hour long episode only a month after the last one, what timeline is this !?
The *best* timeline
@@TalkernateHistory true that
@@TalkernateHistory has one of you actually seen La La Land and if so when are we hearing your thoughts on it. Maybe a La La Land fan alternate story
Please GOD let this channel be sponsored by throat disks one day.
Alternatively let Throat Discs be bought by Talkernate History Inc. one day.
Captain Erwin Rommel of the HMS
Hindenburg clutched the wheel of the Airship.
When out of the corner his eye he saw it...
"Mein Gott!"
Three fighter squadrons of M-E 262's we're tailing him.
It was days like this when he should of listened to his father.
And joined the army.
-Exspept from "To Hell and Bach" written by S.M Turtledove
1:07:14 those Doom novels are hilarious because like halfway through the second out of four books they become basically religious propaganda for the Mormon church.
Doomguy goes to bed reading the Book of Mormon and they quote it’s scripture Luke one liners when killing demons.
After demons take over earth the last holdouts of humanity are locked up in the grand Mormon temple in Salt Lake City.
I am making none of this up.
I had heard that the dev or one of the devs on them was a Mormon but I didn't think Mormon left behind would be spawned by the series
I respect the audacity honestly.
Wasn’t doomguy canonically Mormon?
@@scott_hunts was he?
@@scott_huntsPretty sure he's Catholic
My favorite story in the book is probably "Aristotle and the Gun", where this guy gets a time machine and is like, "Wow, Aristotle tried science but was really bad at it, which held back scientific advancement, so I'll go back in time and teach Aristotle modern science so the present will be awesome." So he goes back in time and tries, but he so overwhelms Aristotle with proof of how wrong Aristotle was that Aristotle just decides, "Wow, this guy shows me I completely suck at science. I'm just going to give up and write more books about music" So when the time traveler goes back to the present, he sees that the new world is really scientifically primitive, because even though Aristotle got a lot of science wrong, the fact he tried encouraged other people later on in history to try too, and eventually learn stuff.
Fun fact: The image at 26:15 is an actual photo of Matt and Max.
No way.
X to doubt
This is one of my favorite channels of all time. Always happy to see you upload a new vid
Wow I didn't know you were a fan! That's so cool! Wonder what the venn diagram of alternate history tangent fans and mocking 6 hour video essays is.
Damn this is a crossover I'd never think of.
My job application gets accepted AND there's a new podcast episode on the same day?
It's definitely a great day today
It’s great to see that one of the pivotal moments in the history of this show is the Teapot Dome Scandal episode.
Imo I feel one issue with some of these stories is that they seem to posit that how things went IRL was the best possible outcome. Like, why would radical Republicans lead to martial law all the way into the 1940s? "Complete disenfranchisement for southern whites" feels like something that Confederates would make up to attack Republicans, why would they do something that drastic? Why does the US not existing in the other story make everything a hellhole with so much technological stagnation?
Also don't like how the hosts phrase things with a weird certainty in regard to this stories "it would have been worse" etc.
The alternate history scenario exists in its own world where it is to be assumed correct in that universe. The story sets up why the south is under martial law.
For the first time, I've read the source material before a Talkernate History episode, so I'm locked and loaded for a damn good time!
Haha, yes! I wish we could have talked about Aristotle and the Gun and Southpaw, but I'm very happy with how it came out all things considered
@@TalkernateHistory That's quite okay, Southpaw is one of my favorites in the book but its a solid collection where its hard to go wrong.
Best part of a Talkernate History episode, is reading through the 8 pages of browser tabs you've had to open afterwards. That's the true power of the tangent
Appreciated the heads-up on the book, enjoyed the stories. Truly, the possibilities are… endless.
We'll plan to do it that way from now on. No more dropping episodes completely out of the blue.
You missed one of the best jokes in "How I Lost the Second World War..." The POV character is this timeline's version of Eisenhower.
Huge long post here, for the discussion around the 22:00 mark, about mental health/psychopathy and all of that. The terms "psychopath"/"sociopath" are pretty nebulous. They're used in everyday speech of course, and I believe they're used at times within the legal world/during actual trials, but there's not really an agreed-upon definition within psychology and especially nowadays the terms are generally avoided by clinical psychologists. In any case, they're sort of catch-all terms to describe the presence of a number of other traits, like a proclivity towards violence and severe antisocial personality disorder, which is usually marked by an individual who feels a limited amount of empathy towards other people. In severe cases, especially when combined with other disorders, like schizophrenia or paranoid personality disorder, people might not even believe/are capable of understanding that other humans have their own thoughts, feelings, or lives of their own. Might think that other people are automatons, in a sense.
So, anyway, a psychopath certainly would have a severe mental illness, by definition. Though as you guys get into, the entire idea behind the insanity plea is that a person's mental illness has made it that they didn't realize what they were doing or are unable to understand that they did something wrong. And generally, with antisocial personality disorder, particularly severe cases of it, that understanding of what is right and wrong is still present. A number of people with the disorder try to counteract it by focusing in on that. They're basically like "I can't empathize with this person, I cannot understand the emotions they're experiencing, and I can't feel anything if I lie to them or hurt them physically or emotionally, but I understand logically that what I'm doing is wrong and I can understand that even if I struggle with empathizing with them, there is something going on for them." So, yeah, something like that likely wouldn't be successful with an insanity plea. And even then, in the US, insanity defenses are very rarely attempted, and they succeed in something ridiculous, like 1% of the time they are attempted.
Though, it also does bring up other issues and questions. There has been debate over how much something like antisocial personality disorder is genetically or environmentally driven (and that's the origin of the two terms "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", based on whether hereditable traits or the environment was the cause), but nowadays its considered to be largely genetic in base, with actual differences in brain structure and functioning. Which then raises the question as to how to hold people responsible, when they had no choice in what disorders they were born with. It's why, personally, I'm not an advocate for the death penalty, though also not an advocate for something like a 20-30 year max on prison sentences. Life imprisonment is, in my opinion, the best thing to do with people like Breivik. Hell, in the US, with the costs of the various appeal processes, it's a lot cheaper than pursuing the death penalty too.
tbh I think it's a lot harder to find an argument _for_ the death penalty that isn't just built on tradition and emotion. I don't like the state having that power, and for it to have any appropriate due process, the costs will far outweigh just socially isolating the person in question.
All I ever really get from the other side is emotional arguments.
Leads to another question since not everyone with anti social personality disorder is going to be a serial killer or terrorist. Things are rarely so simple in psychology.
What a good year for Talkernate History. Keep it up fellas!
44:00 Walmart, Amazon and pretty much every other multinational company runs on centralized planning. It's highly competitive and efficient.
1:00:40 Smallpox was contracted to humans from domesticated Livestock. Therefore, the native americans from that story probably contracted smallpox from their domesticated animals too, and therefore were immune as well.
I was on a plane for 4-5 hours so I downloaded alot of your videos to watch
thanks for the content
I ponder if the steel prices have drop significantly, that the A team over here have uploaded a new talkernate episode relatively to a month compared the usual schedule of a decade
Perhaps, I work in manufacturing and at the latest meeting there were discussions about the market tightening because of recession and inflation fears. So when manufacturing slows down, commodity prices i.e. steel decline as a result and many facilities work fewer hours or produce less units.
@@michaelthayer5351 very interesting, but I hope that this information is not confidential. Because it sounds like the high ups information if I may say; I would not want you to get into any trouble per say, however thank you for the insight.
@@romanreyes3215 I'm fairly certain it isn't, besides anyone with an ounce of common sense should realize that if inflation runs red-hot at 8-10% for more than a quarter its bound to lead to demand destruction, and hence market tightening as more money is allocated to staples leaving less for discretionary.
I love the Kola on the Throat Discs packaging. He's cute.
🐨!! HELL YEAH!! KOALA GANG RISE UPP!!🐨🐨
Happy to hear you guys again
I have a question, which of these scenarios would you rather make a podcast on TNO, Years of Rice and Salt, 1984, or Code Geass?
Of those, probably TNO. But it isn't likely to happen soon for a couple reasons. For one, the game's canon keeps changing. I made a bunch of notes half a year ago, and now a lot of the things I wanted to touch on aren't even in the game anymore. Spooky bag-on-head man, for instance. I'd have to go back in and devote some time to learn what's different. Plus, Matt is a bit cold on doing video game episodes. Its definitely on the list of possibilities, but there's 3 or 4 other subjects higher in the pecking order.
@@TalkernateHistory also there's the possibility of your episode becoming out dated with updates. Kaiserreich has completely changed China since the episode you did on it.
@@TalkernateHistory yeah that’s completely understandable. Granted I think it’s calmed down because those Lord changes only happened because half the mod team left. But even then they are still changing some stuff so probably should wait a year or two.
Every Talkernate history episode is a treasure to savor. Neither of them are full time content creators so every episode we get is them stealing time just for us~
Dosoiz was the King of Sci-Fi anthologies in the late 20th century, he edited the Year's Best Science Fiction for decades :)
The talk about New Order: Last Days of Europe not getting an episode really made me wish for another Max-only episode like Deep Blue Fleet.
Maybe a little bit shorter than regular ones and about media Matt really isn't interested in like video games.
They should have sent the rough riders to Africa to fight Lettow Vorbeck.
Another awesome episode! I think one my favorite stories from the book was Ink from the New Moon.
I must have done great things in a past life to have gotten a new episode this soon!
Speaking of RPG-source books, they also make a great possibility for alternate history. Mostly not a traditional Alternate History, as they usually involve magic and stuff like that, but they are often a pretty good read for some lighthearted fun. Looking at you, Cyberpunk 2020 rulebooks
So glad you made this!
My favorite underrated TH-cam channel, thanks for the new vid guys!
Favorite channel of all time… it’s like Christmas came early this summer :3
Don’t even know what this is yet but I’m here for it
19:51 Didn’t expect Ace Combat to show up.
Always a good day when Talkernate history uploads
56:34 The part of Ohio where I’m from, which is odd to consider in another universe I would have been from Connecticut
We're 2 for 2 when it comes to interstate territorial disputes. Soon all will be Ohio.
Horrific
As a citizen of Ohio, the idea of expanding Ohio is terrifying.
Aaaannnnnd we’re back!
I think an episode or series about forgotten or lesser known U.S. military conflicts and wars would be interesting. You could do some on the Barbary Wars or the Mexican Border War in the 1910’s.
I watched Sliders because of ya guys a year back, its quite a good show!
It is a good show. On a related note, I think you're going to like the next episode we do.
@@TalkernateHistory Do you guys have a segment where you decide what world you would want to stay in most?
My guesses are Nudist world, or the one where 90% of men are wiped out and the remainder are stuck in breeding camps.
@@bobbinsthethird We don't directly address that in the episode, unfortunately. It's a tricky question because Sliders doesn't really have any utopias, there's always big downsides to every seemingly nice world. Like on breeder world, you don't have any freedom and half the world is dead. And on Nudist world, there's snow on the ground in that scene, which implies you're supposed to be nude even in winter weather, which sounds terrible.
The world where no one can lie is an interesting idea. I'd be curious to see if a society like that could even work. Probably not, but it would be interesting to find out.
Max you have killed it this year. We truly don't deserve this.
PS. 1:05:25 I love how you guys hate stupid fantasy reasoning for stuff. The simpler explanation is 9 times out of 10 the correct definition.
Holy shit I also went to birch wathen Lenox for high school haha threw me for a loop hearing you guys say that
The boys are back!
THEY HAVE RETURNED...and I'm finding out 11 days later.
Yayyyyyyyyyyy NEW TALKERNATE HISTORY!!!
The -yan is Armenian. Most Armenian surnames end in a -yan, like as you said Mikoyan, Pashinyan or Kardash(y)ian. It's a fairly simple way of telling someone's ancestry and is known throughout the former Soviet space as many Armenians left Armenia proper in a diaspora. Which is why Armenia has more citizens abroad than in the mother country, being mainly concentrated in America, Russia and France.
Good episode, although I firmly disagree with the conclusion you draw from "Must and Shall". The idea that a proper Reconstruction under the Radical Republicans would be some kind of authoritarian dystopia is akin to Lost Cause 'historiography'. I really hope that's not what Turtledove was going for himself. In fact, if you want to see what a regime of civil disenfranchisement and oppressive policing would do to the South, you only need to look at OTL. The fact that you're using real-life images from riots in the 1960s to depict this alternate scenario is just one indication of that. Honestly, the failure of Reconstruction to stave off the re-entrenchment of white supremacy in the South may be the most infamous case of winning a war but losing the peace. Even the most Radical Republican scenario, if it had created a long-lasting enmity towards Southern whites, would not have led to some kind of reverse Jim Crow. That's a good example of projection on the part of the oppressor class; what if they'll do to us what we did to them? You see it a lot in these sorts of histories.
Calm down dude, your seeing a problem in an alternate history scenario.(That doesn't have racist undertones)
I felt the same way. It was so weird how they were acting like OTL's reconstruction was the Best Possible Timeline™ and that any alternate history that tries to more fully remove the remnants of the Confederacy from the south is doomed to backslide into authoritarianism. I doubt that that was their intention but it was still odd.
Thank you, that entire story felt incredibly suspect and I’m glad I’m not the only talkernate history fan to see it. Alternate history can sometimes be a refuge for lost cause apologia and this one seems like it hit all the usual beats. Also the idea that IRL reconstruction was the “good” outcome is very old fashioned.
Really thought we wouldn’t notice Ram Ranch at 30:43
10:28 Hey,look. It's Jack Johnson.
I thought that too lol
btw the car at 39:21 is the 1979 Aston Martin Bulldog. i saw it recently at Goodwood festival of speed. it just looks amazing.
I know you guys have already covered "Wild Wild West" but have you ever considered any other pieces of alternate history that take place in the American frontier? Like maybe what if the West was never tamed or what would the West be like at the South won the civil war?
That could be interesting. Something that comes to mind is, "what if there was no Mexican war" and the Southwest is a series of independent countries that seceded from Mexico. Or it's still run by Mexico, and it's a terribly-run anarchic wild place. That could make an interesting Western alternate history story.
For the record I fully agree with Max on the death penalty. You look at some people and oh no they aren't going to be reformed and they are fully aware of there actions. There's a particular case in England from the 60s, the Moors Murder case, that is my go to these people are awful and really should have died. There isn't a good argument for why Myra Hindley wasn't executed, beyond the fact the death penalty was abolished weeks before her trial. Oh well just an aside, my college thesis paper was on her. On a funnier note I feel called out because I owned all the Star Wars tech history books. I mean hell I owned the Star War history book from 400000 BBY to 40 ABY.
I don't think certain people can be reformed. Obviously. The question is whether the state killing someone who is already detained and completely at its mercy is a power it should be able to have. Death row existing for a few exceptional people is a threat to anyone who is accused of a serious crime. Recent supreme court decisions in the US have also made it harder to appeal a death sentence, with the process that resulted in ~30% (presenting evidence not originally presented at time of trial in an appeal that the defendant's defense was inadequate) of all stays of execution being banned.
As for the argument of the cost of keeping prisoners alive: it is literally less than the cost of appeals + execution. A long process that exists so the state isn't fast-tracking killing people with limited due process.
Other than some emotional gut reaction what argument is there _to_ have a process for the state to kill people?
@@CraftsmanOfAwsomenes Its a complicated question as you are right the financial cost is a problem and there's the old issue of potentially killing innocent people. I personally think it should be considered for only a very small percentage of people, the ones with multiple murders and where there is no doubt of guilt. The before mentioned Moors Murders was so infamous because one of the murders was recorded. Anything less then absolute confidence should probably not receive the death penalty.
@@LadyTylerBioRodriguez Thank you for replying and considering my position. Usually when I have this discussion it's with family members who think anyone accused should immediately get the firing squad, so hearing your opinion was really refreshing.
@@CraftsmanOfAwsomenes No problem, I go back and forth quite a bit on the issue but usually return to this point. My thesis paper in college was on the history of female serial killers so I remember quite a few awful people. But I'd also add that even if one is in favor, its best to not take pleasure in the act and make it as painless as possible. Quick and be done with it, yeah it might be amusing to note that someone like HH Holmes got a botched hanging, but in the moment its best to get it right.
Never thought I’d see the day where Norfolk southern was shown in a talkernate history video. Also side note it’s funny that in this communist USA there’s still independently owned railroads but in real life the gov nationalized the passenger rail operations back in the 70’s (aka Amtrak) and some of the major freight railroads too (aka conrail)
By the way the thing about Jamacia in queens, it has no relation to the island I think it was just some translation error that kept going on overtime
55:00 what movie is the flamethrower cavalry from
That's "1990: The Bronx Warriors"
that picture of Nicolas Cage is from Little Tokyo in Los Angeles, he's like a regular there
above ground tombs are pretty common in island countries, there's a lot of them in the philippines
47:12 maybe Jesse Jackson
If you guys need any more recommendations, Sea Lion Press has some wonderful (and cheap!) works available, including some short story compilations. I don't mean to shill for them, I just think some of their books are really good.
Funnily enough, I was thinking about getting their "Alternate Australias" book the other day.
@@TalkernateHistory My main recommendations would be their Look to the West series (which is way too ambitious), Grapeshot and Guillotines (short stories about revolution), and the new "Chasing Shadows" (it's aboutt Smedley Butler!).
@@brame5800 Festung Europa is pretty good too, albeit really dry.
@@antoniojm1873 That one was good as well! Though I wonder if it hasn't been outdone by Thousand Week Reich since then.
@@brame5800 Now thats a good question.
Idk if you will see or read this comment Talkernate History, but I was thinking of creating an anthology of alternate history short stories like Mike Resnick did in the late 80s, early 90s. I wanted to know if you had any advice on how to organize the anthology. Things to avoid doing that you didn't like in the books you've reviewed (No scifi allowed in my collectio) or publishers who would likely be imterested in publishing the book when it's completed. The theme is alternate assassinations. This can mean people surviving attempts on their life, people dying instead of surviving, or someone else entirely being killed instead of the main character/figure. Anyways, I want to thank you if you read this far in my comment and I love your vids!
You can always self publish on Amazon.
Because the theme is so broad, I think it would be best to have a very wide range of story settings. The classic choices for alternate assassinations would be Lincoln, JFK, and other American presidents, and that's fine. But it shouldn't be solely America-centric. Feature alternate assassinations from around the world, and feature well known and lesser known events. Like: Thatcher getting blown up in that hotel, or Juvenal Habyarimana not getting his plane shot down. Also alternate assassinations from the pre-modern era, Julius Caesar would be a classic example of this sort of thing.
An important thing that I think contributed to the success of the Resnick volumes, unrelated to their content, is their cover art. I'd definitely commission an artist to create some eye catching, maybe a bit absurd, art. Something like Lincoln in the booth at Ford's theater, turning and pointing a gun at John Wilkes Booth. Something that instantly conveys to the viewer that this is about alternate worlds.
If I've learned anything from all those compilations, having an amazing book cover is key.
How haven’t I seen this tell now?
As a black person, I find Must and Shalls premise interesting. I'm for that future especially since the Jim Crow south was so brutal towards black people.
An Episode on Quantum Leap would be great
>never going to do a TNO episode
If only I could subscribe twice
He was joking
Have y'all done lest darkness fall yet?
Still wondering if you'll cover the world worldwar series?
Fucken love you guys
What if U.K. Parliament decided the Union Navy's stop and seizure of RMS Trent could not be ignored, and not only gave the CSA diplomatic recognition, but declared war on the USA?
why no tno last days of Europe mod video?
When are you going to talk about “Joe Stele”?
But what if....
I am starting to think that harry maybe george martins long lost sibling
I think the President Jackson is supposed to Jesse Jackson
Low key, I kinda want those fake alternate history suggestions to be made into actual stories...
I was really rooting for scoop Jackson’s military coup, then you had to say it failed and America becomes communisrc
Salve
Nick Cage's character would absolutely have been charged with manslaughter in that case! He willingly entered a dangerous situation when he had the opportunity to leave, like his wife wanted him too, but he just had to approach those guys. He escalated the situation which caused a fight to happen, so it was his fault. The part about different standards is movie logic, but the idea that someone committing a crime because they got into a fight when they chose not to just leave when they could have is totally sound.
th-cam.com/video/jcqSb7W-c2w/w-d-xo.html
0/10, these episodes don't last 5 hours.
Have you guys checked out 'The Atlantropa Articles' by Cody Franklin (the guy who runs AlternateHistoryHub)? It had a sort-of similar premise to 'How I Lost the Second World War...' but is set many years after "the war."
Do you guys have social media?
Your guy's hatred for scifi in alternate history is funny to watch