one thing a lot of people seem to never consider, the Tyranids have conquered the galaxy they came from and converted all the biomass in it, but they only exist as a contender in the endless stalemate of war in 40k, by the time the flood have a whole galaxy under their control they become a threat to the entire universe.
@@gregthepeglegpregdreg if it makes you feel better. We are so incredibly early in relative time of the universe that we won’t have to deal with this most likely. We’re like .005% of the way through the life of the universe. I would be scared to life in a super galaxy at the end of the Orange star epoch
To put it simple,the flood is a parasite,the tyrannid is just space bug that can adapt.While the nid have to adapt to any strategy throw at them,the flood just outright steal them so in effectiveness the flood is better,but in an all out brawl against the nid,neither can gain the upper hand really,the nid troops don’t have nervous system so they can’t be infected so the only thing the flood can gain from killing them is biomass but in term of galactic domination the flood just stomp
Not just the entire universe but the very multiverse as the precursors were multiversal entities that cross through realities whenever they wanted. The forerunners were stated to pull energy from different universe in a passing sentence, *A PASSING SENTENCE* you would think something this overpowered would get a dedicated page but nope literally just one sentence just saying “Oh yeah btw we take energy from different universes” Like bruh wtf. Anyways the only reason the Flood stayed in the Milky Way/ the original Halo Universe is because they wanted to send a message, they wanted to completely crush the forerunners.
Something that’s really interesting about the Flood is back when Bungie ran the show the Logic Plague wasn’t part of the lore. Instead, the way the Gravemind swayed Mendicant Bias to join the Flood was by convincing Mendicant that he has free will and it’s up to him whether or not he wants to obey his creators. Back then Rampancy went by the Marathon definition where it wasn’t the result of an ai dying because it ran out of storage space. Instead the ai would “go crazy” from our perspective and starts behaving erratically in an attempt to break its shackles and grow beyond its limits. The reason the UNSC would regularly put them down once they become Rampant was because a super intelligent rogue ai could cause all kinds of problems. Plus, during the time of the Human Covenant War they couldn’t afford to deal with internal threats, while they needed to keep their full attention on an external one. Something else that’s really cool is pre Rampancy the terminals refer to Mendicant as it, and post Rampancy call Mendicant he. This implies that before entering Rampancy Mendicant Bias was just a machine and wasn’t truly sapient until later. He then viewed his past servitude as a form of slavery and wanted vengeance. Also, aside from the things Frank O’Conner has direct control over like one third of 3’s terminals and the Iris campaign it was HEAVILY IMPLIED and in some cases outright stated that humans and Forerunners were one in the same. In fact that was the whole point of the Human Covenant War, with the Prophet’s goal being to wipe out the evidence that their faith was a lie. Contact Harvest also came out after Halo 3, and most of 3 was made with humans being Forerunners in mind. It was just kept vague as to whether or not we were literal Forerunners or apes molded into Forerunners to act as a replacement who would Reclaim(er) their legacy if they failed to defeat the Flood by any means other than the Rings.
@Devj530 Well, at least they paid off all of those changes in a satisfying way. Can you imagine if they massively changed the Forerunner lore only to kill off their forerunner villain in a comic book? God, that would've been a waste. Fortunately, no company is dumb enough to do that.
You're close, But the Forerunners being literally ancient humans would be impossible in the canon as of Halo 3 because Halo is supposed to canonically take place in our universe, And we where humanity came from. There's no room in our evolutionary history for us to have evolved into an interstellar empire and then come back in time to look like we evolved later. Especially because modern humanity has used up all of the readily available fossil fuels. An interstellar empire before us would have left us with nothing. The Forerunners were implied to be analogous to the biblical God. Creating us in their image to inherit and rule over their creations.
@Dryym I'm not sure we could ever reconcile the firing of the Halo Rings with the fossils record to begin with, but the fossil fuel thing might be because Earth wasn't the Forerunner homeworld, just a planet the Librarian really liked, though the terminal lore is sketchy since the main writing team said that Forerunners were ancient humans but the terminal team decides to go its own way and heavily imply that they weren't, and management just wanted to finish making their multi-player shooter game and didn't really give a damn about lore.
@@RorikH The firing of the halos is relatively easy to reconcile with if we assume two things. 1: Everything which was killed by the pulse was destroyed without any trace of it remaining. 2: Everything which was killed by the pulse was properly indexed and replaced on Earth after firing. I don't think these are too unreasonable to expect. As for Earth not being the original Forerunner homeworld, I don't think this really works. This would either mean that the alien Forerunners just so happen to look like they naturally evolved on this planet and are genetically related to everything on it by pure coincidence, Or that the Forerunners fabricated billions of years of evolutionary history while transferring an entire ecosystem from their homeworld to Earth in order to look like they evolved here instead. The way I see it, Everything in the lore as of Halo 3 is consistent with the Forerunners having created us and made us evolve into their successors. Meanwhile, In order to make them be literal ancient humans, You have to make huge leaps in logic which aren't worth it when you have a simpler solution which works well. Especially when you consider the biblical allegory angle. Which I just don't think works if the Forerunners are literal ancient humans. What I think happened, Personally, Is that in CE, When Halo was still sort of a Marathon sequel, The Forerunners supposed to be ancient humans. But in the time period where 2 and 3 were being developed, Someone on the writing staff realized it wouldn't make sense and as such, The Forerunners shifted to being our creators. Personally, I think this is what we see in Halo 2's cut ending. The human skeleton in the sarcophagus would be "Adam". The first man. The original human created by the Forerunners, And the template for humans to evolve into.
the salamanders might actually exist to fight super cell parasites and similar threads. also fun fact: the flood from halo are on the weaker side for super cell parasites.
@@MacroLore you got something wrong with the flood: the flood get smarter and more capable depending on the ammound of neural matter that they absorb as well as learning from their food this way and given that the nid is a hivemind... well yeah: disaster for the nids if they loose even one single ripper to the flood... wich btw could easily infect a whole fleet in less than a day.
@Irobert1115HD while the nids are a hive mind they do have a range for the little ones, they have units that essentially work as signal extenders for the swarmlord as nids only start acting smart when one of them get deployed, so I'd argue the flood would only get that added if they got a swarmlord, like it only changes things slightly but swarmlords and norn queens are the actual brains in the nid army, the basic termagant I'd argue is basically just a drone with no higher brain function besides collect biomass untill they have one of those 2 around hell rippers actually just die if they fall out of signal range they are completely mindless I only say this because it shows they aren't grown to be able to maintain a connection to the hivemind on thier own so the flood would ether need to maintain range through absorbing signal extenders or assimilate one of them for it as commander Keyes demonstrated that a strong enough will can resist the floods information assimilation and I'd argue a hivemind like thiers would be stronger then a single incredibly impressively stubborn human
The Precursors actually had a philosophy that all things in life (pain, happiness, peace, war, ect) were all part of the experience of existence. They could've wiped the Forerunners out with ease but chose not to as the Precursors' extermination was part of their existence. They still strived for self preservation, but didn't exercise their god like power to fight back
The flood gravemind is something uniquely terrifying, he speaks so educational, rational, poetical that it makes you fear it, like how something so grotesque and dangerously lethal can communicate with such mannerisms, thats how it convinced the a.i to turn against its masters. The flood makes Shakespeare look like a kindergartner
It's the most intelligent being in the halo universe. It holds all the knowledge from previous gravemind including the precursors. The primordial having a small yap sesh sent humans into insanity with ease. Very terrifying and mysterious
Absolutely love that the gravemind we know often chooses to speak in poetry. It's not just an animal, or just a hunger, or just a zombie, it's an ancient being of such accumulated intelligence that it has developed tastes far more refined than our own, but at the same time, borne of it.
@@wolfleader17 yeah man when he was on screen in halo 2 I was captivated by his banter though I guess that really isn't saying much sense halo 2 always has me captivated when playing
Yeah the flood gravesmind may be the most intelligent thing in the universe once it's conquered a few worlds. Like all those memories and knowledge from great minds of any race packed into one organism and you've got something that'll make Einstein look like a baby in the knowledge comparison. And with that knowledge the flood can create new ideas because it's so intelligent, so it may even find revolutionary ways to do wars just by existing.
Don't forget that when the flood infects something they get all the stuff they can do/all their memories which would potentially just connect all of the flood to the hivemind. Now giving the flood all of that information. Potentially. (Could be wrong)
Exactly. If they were to eat a Lichtor for example the would gain the insights of not only that one bio form. But every single “spawn” of that bio form every variation. If they got their hands on 2-3 bioforms no matter how “customized” to the hive fleet they are. It’s GG the flood would then have a complete understanding of how they came to decide on this form, and every adaptation as well as how they were earned/harvested
They can disconnect from the hivemind and the hivemind can force them out and depending on the form, they will either just adapt to the ecosystem acting as just another animal or they will literally steal space ships in order to fly to and attempt to reconnect to the hivemind or throw themselves in a bio pit, with the example I'm referring to being a group of infected Tyranids that the hivemind forced out because they would corrupt the entire tendril if I remember correctly. Regardless, the flood would likely infect several Tyranids in their first encounter and as you said, could potentially give the entire knowledge of the hive mind at that time, the hivemind likely feeling this happening and immediately cutting off every single Tyranid who gets infected after this point, likely adapting immunity to infestors and the super cell within a month or so, the tendril would completely change its goal to wipe out the flood seeing as anything the flood touches may be unrecoverable biomass(corrupt) and would require complete cellular destruction. I mentioned in another comment already that Tyranids might also be able to learn from what they eat, as their ability to learn and take genetic information and abilities before applying them to their own forms may have allowed them to take the ability to eat people and learn what they knew from space marines who do have this ability. This is speculation on my part as I don't know if this ever ran through games workshops mind or not however assuming that is the case. It might modify its biological information collection forms that normally test for biological weaknesses and even tech related stuff like gas mask filters. The modifications may include complete immunity if possible, learning from the flood hivemind, some way to breakdown and possibly use flood biomass although I doubt it, if immunity isn't an option then a resistance allowing them to study multiple bodies before succumbing, and likely exploding before succumbing so that the flood may not use them. The counter tendril would likely use Bio-plasma, Acid, fire, and other ranged options that would destroy the flood at range. Their bodies would become highly armored their nervous system would become extremely minimal in order to prevent infection the best they can. If they were getting infected, they would likely adapt to disconnect themselves automatically and self destruct in order to stop the flood from gaining any ground. After a battle, the intel gatherers will move in to study the bodies and further adapt to fighting the flood with the end goal to become immune to infection, purify flood biomass for their own use and not to stop the loss of biomass, to continually learn what the flood is thinking if possible although I don't doubt the flood would attemp to trick it and adapt to this in some way as well, and to eradicate the flood as quickly as possible leaving nothing of them left so that they can collect biomass as normal without the flood ruining it.
@@deadman9335 Great analyse! Though Flood is also capable to evolve very quickly, even quicker than tyranids i think. They can basically evolve immediately and as the flood is super intelligent and can think many steps ahead when they're at keymind stage. Flood would absolutely evolve against anything that tyranids evolve so it would be endless evolution on both sides. And even if the flood cannot use tyranids as infection forms, they can use them as a biomass to create pure flood combat forms in hives so flood doesn't neccessary need to infect tyranids to gain new combatants.
@@MacroLoreAlso wrong, tyranids life forms possess only information which hive mind ALLOWS them to take, for example single hive tyrant doesn't know all the strategies that hive mind does, they are learning on themselves with each battle.
I completely think that if the flood outbreak just got started then it would be easily taken care of in 40k, but if they get their hands on a couple of worlds, they very quickly because a serious issue. This is especially true considering the numerous technology that exists in Warhammer (which the flood can and will learn how to use at peak efficiency)
Also really depends on if you wanna nerf the flood or not. Technically as soon as a Gravemind (and later keymind) is formed they immediately gain access to the shared memories of every previous one. Meaning they'd have a understanding of forerunner technology and most forms of technology found in 40k would be considered rudimentary in comparison. Understanding 40k tech would probably come extremely easy to it.
The thing is a new flood outbreak will not be considered a threat really, it is something new that will take time to learn how "dangerous" it is. By the time they realize how bad the flood is, it's to late unless they recognize how threatening they are and DISINTIGRATE the planet to leave no trace. For in the wise words of the shipmaster "A single spre can wipe out a species" Also a new infection from a single spore, I think could have an entire planet consumed within a month, with is being slow at first then exponentially increasing in speed of infection
Ehh, peak 40K tech easily matches peak Forerunner tech and even exceeds it in many notable examples, IE the Necrons galactic Orrerry basically being a better more efficient halo ring given its ability to instantly supernova any chosen star in the galaxy at the simple push of a button.
@BertoxolusThePuzzled some quick facts I looked up, A supernova would have to be within about 160 LIGHTYEARS for earth to feel its damaging effects (just feel the damage that is all). The range of 1 halo ring is 250 light-years of exterminating all organic life capable of sustaining the flood (pretty much 99.99999 to ♾️%) of life. I feel like technology wise it is Lowe tech to just, hay blow up sun and make supernova vs making a device that creates a pulse of energy that has MORE RANGE THAN A SUPERNOVA and is more of a precise weapon. Also that pulses range can grow exponentially if other rings are fired at the same time as mentioned by 343 guilty spark. Also forerunners literally made sun's and planets around sun's that they made and called them shield worlds.
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled Definitely more efficient and precise (making it ideal for just detonating the star of a single system without splashing everywhere else), but it's a bit more difficult to call it a 'better device' outright when it took but seven Halo Rings to sweep the entire galaxy, billions of stars, of the Flood. Bit of a sniper rifle vs ICBM comparison
When it comes to these "2 Biohives that absorbs all mass going head to head" scenarios, the thing to remember is that they all follow one very simple fundamental rule. Scaling. If one of them gets an advantage in momentum, they just win. They end up in the position to "deal" with the other hive by whatever means they want. Whether that is leveraging an advantage in terms of subversion, or simply finding ways to avoid or prevent contact altogether ("starving" their opponent). When one of these forces has a significant enough advantage in sheer mass, they can quite literally turn it into an unwinnable battle of attrition. So, if you want to call to base fundamentals and declare a victor based on an "even" start, you then have to consider where these inflection points are and how they happen. Firstly, the force with the most potent subversion is the Flood. They subvert things at the molecular level via the *supernatural* properties of their supercell. It isn't relying on fundamentally natural scientific principles, it quite literally breaks and bends reality in order to take control. At the cellular level, the flood always win. Tyranids (and the Zerg, for that matter) *do* rely on fundamentally natural scientific principles in order to subvert biomass. The nids, specifically, are very brute force in that they use powerful caustics to *destroy* matter and reduce it to its base organic compounds before doing anything like a subversion- Nid pathogens do exist, but they don't subvert. They just kill and destroy, except for the Genestealer virus which only acts over the course of generations via minute genetic alterations to in-vitro progeny. The flood Supercell, however, doesn't really "have" base organic compounds. It is, itself, a sort of fundamentally homogenous meta-material with a cell-like structure, so introducing it into a vat of tyranid caustics will only see the supercells independantly adapting to the caustic environment and using the organic compounds within to create more supercells through its weird space-magicky processes. This means that in any sort of "direct" confrontation, the Nids only option is to avoid physical contact by any means necessary. Thankfully the flood isn't really compatible with the Warp and probably couldn't access the Tyranid hivemind unless/until it was already at the gravemind stage- at which point it could just outright blap the nids anyways using "neural physics" (read: space magic) without needing to go that far. So if we assume an equal start scenario, the flood simply win. They instantly win the subversion battle at a stage where the nids aren't big or powerful enough to skirt around it. But if you give both sides roughly large starting forces and also put them on different starting planets, then the nids stand a decent chance for the same reason that the Forerunners were able to almost wipe the flood out despite being in a very much losing conflict. The nids, being larger and smarter than a desperate disparate crumbling society, would be able to very easily execute the strategy to a far larger degree by simply *picking up* the biomass around the flood and then fucking off to a different galaxy entirely as they are known to do (they leave worlds barren in their wake, unlike the flood who actually kind of develop them). Permanently cucking the flood out of the requisite mass necessary to grow powerful enough to make use of neural physics to pursure. Fundamentally jailing them until the end of time. The amount of stuff the flood needs to be tactically hyper-intelligent is higher than the nids, since the flood is very much undirected and imprecise until they reach that stage whereas the nids genetically reach it almost immediately once they have enough biomass to create a single somewhat large brain.
Tyranids fight on the microscopic level too, so it's fair to assume they are just as quick to adapt to any infection. It all depends on the situation. Put the Tyranids and Flood on different planets in the same system, Tyranids sweep. The Flood lacks any reliable means of infecting neighbouring planets. Put them on the same planet? Well what forms? Tyranid Norn can pop out trillions of Tyranids without the restriction of necessitating hosts. They can also feed off all biomass, as opposed to the Flood that needs complex organisms. It would be a race against time for the Flood to create a Gravemind, and even then it's debatable how easily it can fight a gestalt consciousness of equal intelligence, warp fuckery could just nullify any advantages it might otherwise have. People need to understand, the Tyranid super organism is multi-layered. It's simultaneously seeding the atmosphere with Tyranid microbes AND assaulting upon the Warp whilst an invasion is happening. The Tyranids you see swarming the battlefield in their trillions is just one facet of their assault. Tyranid microbes entered an infinitely escalating war with Ork spores, which backfired epically for the Inquisitor who thought it was a good idea. Ultimately, the winner is whoever the writer decides.
It takes more than scaling the nuances like where it takes place what enemy units exist at the start and what tools or environments they have at they're disposal. Haxs come into play heavily and is probably the most important aspect of this match up in a versus debate.
@@rushpatriot2866 Types of units do not really matter when both can adapt to counter those units. If we give them both planets, either in the 40k verse or the Halo verse, Flood already acts like Orks, one spore and you might as well say goodbye to your planet and what's worse for 40k is most factions can take years to respond to a threat, and it takes plot to remove the flood from a planet. Flood being able to quite literally, infect ships themselves or use ships as they gain information by infection are going to be space born very fast. that leaves Haxs, Nids have that until Flood becomes unionized. Rate of infection is faster, have far more ways to infect with, fully aware of what the Nids are doing to its food source, and the ability to have the ability of whatever they eat and give that ability to every part of the flood if it so wishes. In terms of 40k, it would suck for everyone if the Flood infected say a Space Marien, any of the assassins that the Imperium has, Tau, the Space Elves. I don't even think necrons would be fully safe, flood has shown to infect technology, and I think AI.
Orks exist in warhammer 40k. Nids gain access and control ober orks spores. Those spores bend reality just as much if not even more that supercells. Nids would devour any pure form ; thats why they exist , to consume all life forms and evolve to become better. Maybe they wont gain all the flood powers like metal alteration of physics But nids can and will absorb everything else and craft perfect specimens to destroy pure forms and gain more biomass on every battle. And dont even think of outsmarting them ; no amount of trascended could allow anything to surpass the hivemind ; it is literally the dominion for halo , but with the sole goal of making 1 faction kill anything else.
I'd like to add to this... flip to Halo: Cryptum pg156-157. Bornstellar gets a glimpse of a literally eternal Precursor mind, the descriptions of the experience leaving little room to argue. They didn't actually develop or evolve, they just are. The Precursors are eternal constants, always having existed in their current unchangeable state, which means their biological forms, including the Flood and Endless, are avatars they use to enact their will on the galaxy in specific ways. The Logic Plague is then a Precursor grafting its mind onto the mind of the afflicted, giving the Precursor direct control over that being's perceptions and decision making, allowing the Precursors to make it further the Precursors' goals, while still thinking that it has full free will to make its own decisions.
As in the Endless from Halo Infinite? I've seen so much speculation about a possible connection, but that's pretty clear. Or is that just 343 being idiots again? Which part of that is a direct quote?
@@kingofhearts3185 The TLDR is that most of the lore on the Precursors is given in little clues throughout various sources, mostly the Forerunner Saga, and very little is directly stated, rather the evidence is spread out for the reader to figure out, like a mystery novel that allows the reader to figure out the culprit about the same time the investigator does. We know the Halos kill all neurological biomass from the Forerunner Saga, and we can clearly see that the Endless are neurological entities via the Harbinger in Halo Infinite, yet they were found alive after the Halo Array fired. In the whole of the lore, the only way we've seen anything survive the Halo Array is by not being there when it's fired, such as being outside of the flow of time in temporal stasis. The Forerunners didn't have records of the Endless, which means they were either something very new, or something ancient that the Forerunners had tried to erase from history, and given the complexity of temporal stasis, the Endless being new enough to have not been previously found by the Forerunners is unlikely to the point of virtual impossibility. The only race the Forerunners tried to erase from history, leaving behind only a mythological version of them, was the Precursors. Also, there's the question of what sort of temporal stasis releases the occupants after a super-weapon erases neurological life from the region? Technology is typically unaffected by the Halo Array, but we do know that it causes Neural Physical constructs to disintegrate, and again from the Forerunner Saga, we know that Precursor-made temporal stasis chambers when destroyed by a Halo releases the occupant after the destructive energies have passed, because that's what happened when the Forerunners fired a Halo on the planet the Primordial was on. All of this strongly points to a strong connection between the Endless and the Precursors, as does the Forerunner Ancilla in Halo Infinite having determined that they believe the Endless are something more terrifying than the Flood. It's revealed in the Forerunner Saga that when the Forerunners rebelled, the Precursors put some of their biological avatars into temporal stasis at the same time they turned others into the Flood dust, so everything points towards the Endless being those Precursor avatars, who were released by the Halo Array, only to be immediately found by the Forerunner Ancilla, and placed into Forerunner-made stasis, until they were eventually released by the Banished, all a part of the Precursors' grand design. As such, I feel extremely confident that I am correct that the Endless are the Precursors' avatars that were placed in temporal stasis at the same time they turned others into the Flood dust.
The precursor are the fabric of reality They can’t be killed Even if not a single flood supercell or any other form they have exist anymore they will still be
Not want to sound like a rude fanboy, but the Hive-Mind as a whole, is just a very, VERY atomic tendril of the true form of the Tyranids, heck, if you read enough, the Hive-Mind in the Skein, you know where we have: -Conceptual and Metaphysical tides -infinite planes of existence, with infinite possibilities, planes of existence and timelines -a Space so big that the material multiverse, which I will remind you, has Mathematical universes with Mathematical and Geometrical principles, vectors and raw, digital Mathematical data, is only the SURFACE of it The Hive-Mind in the Skein, that extends its tendrils around all of the Skein, is just a SMALL, projection of the Shadow in the Warp, the Great Dragon, in the Warp itself, the same plane of existence that: -is beyond Mathematics and Physics, which in 40k are so advanced, that not even the scientists who theorized the multiverse, gravity, dark matter and geometrical concepts, would rather taking the hardest tests of the world than actually solving how the Imperium Mathematics and Physics work. -The same Warp that itself is beyond the entire concept of Philosophy, Dimensions and Concepts -a Plane of Existence that has infinite layers that are trascendental and dimensionless «The Hive-mind's true form/soul is described as 'The Great Dragon' and it's form coils around the stacked planes of of Existence or 'Panes of Glass'. Here it's true form is described as even more fundamental then it's depiction on the Skein which is the essence of it's Fate and 'higher dimensions' while at first seemingly referring too merely the 'Infinite' dimensions of physical reality, however as we have already established, the Skein is separate from the material plane and transcendent over it. Furthermore, I believe it's also referring more to how it's soul within the Warp is the true reality of it's soul as opposed to it's existence within the Skein that is merely a psychic abstraction. I also believe the true state of the Hive Mind or 'The Great Dragon' is implied to be a fully grown 'Voidspawn' or the adult form of the Void Grubs/Voidspawn that Belianna views within the Panes of Glass when attempting to view the Skein as a Outergod/Lovecraft type reference (more on this in Age of Sigmar section) "Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon's true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, and the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna saw was the reality of its soul. It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet's arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun. She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreaded dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance. Against this vista flickered the souls of Eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole." -Forges of Mars omnibus» I will leave you this link that explores the lore, more so the Cosmology: all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Sky_Stalyn_Teta/Warhammer_Universe_Cosmology What we see of the Tyranids, are just very tiny, lovecraftian aspectos of the Eldritch Beast that is in the Warp.
Keep in mind one nasty little detail that would be The Flood’s ace in the hole: *_They would have Slipspace travel, in a setting where almost every other faction has to make do with infinitely more dangerous and unreliable Warp Travel._* Once a Gravemind is formed, the flood would have access to ALL of the memories of the Forerunners they consumed AND the knowledge of the Precursors they once were. It would be child’s play for The Flood to modify ANY space-worthy craft to use Slipspace and scatter across the entire galaxy faster and more precisely than anyone could keep track of. By the time everyone realizes what’s going on, The Flood would have already entrenched itself across every corner of the galaxy. And the WORST PART? NO planet under attack from the flood could be considered “expendable” or “low priority”, as any worlds conquered by The Flood would just become KeyMinds that would toss more flood across all of the galaxy (The best way I could describe a Keymind in 40K terms would be Tyranids tried making their own Daemon World equivalents that acted as nodes for their hive mind to operate like mini-astronomicans).
The flood are also such master strategist that the forunner AI that was controlling trillions of sentinels in perfect union compared itself to the Gravemind and said it felt like a wooden boat in comparison to the Graveminds intelligence. Check the Forrunner trilogy books for reference
The more the Flood evolves and grows, the more you realize that endgame flood is basically just the Vex from Destiny. They're damn near invincible, can bend the laws of space and time on whim, and will most likely be capable of invading other universes and timelines. The tyranids, however, are just hungrier, larger, more adaptive bugs from Starship troopers.
@@l0sts0ul89 Basically. They were created by two 'gods', which you could technically call the masters and creators of all universes, The Gardener and The Winnower, by those said beings trying to play a 'flower game', to see if there's any other ending for a species than for one to reach the total apex and dominate everything, or death. The Vex always did the former, and they never really died between 'games' (universes), and instead became so powerful that they bled into the 'garden' where these two beings 'played'. Currently, our game is going on in Destiny, but instead of taking the hands off, both the Winnower (Darkness) and The Gardener (Light) are taking active roles in it, and thus the Vex were capable of invading this new universe. So basically, they're all that's left, an echo of sorts, of a species/creature so powerful that it was capable of literally 'stitching' itself into the fabric of reality. They also time travel.
@@cadendains8106 soooo- how exactly are they gonna loose on the end? I mean they have to eventually right? I heard the Vex you fight in the games are like rejected ones.
@@l0sts0ul89 So, the Vex time travel and win so often because they're utilizing incredible amounts of computing to predict everything town to attoseconds. However, they can not compute nor predict powers such as the Dark, the Light, or this weird in between thing (hard to explain), and so this gives them a huge, glaring weakness to what's called Paracasaul threats, which you, a Guardian, basically a demigod that can be almost infinitely revived and powered by the Light, are. Also, you're not fighting rejects, what we're fighting are builders who are shooting us with the equivalent of a Vex communication device. We've only seen one 'combat' form, and it's the weakest one made to guard things, not even an attacker. They're called Wyverns and BOY are they tough to kill and annoying. They also have these things called Vex Minds which are basically an improved super computer form that has an express purpose to calculate. Like, there was one Vex Mind that was given the sole purpose of repurposing a planet as efficiently as possible.
If it doesn't exist yet I want someone to make a mod or just a full game that's cross between Halo and Warhammer. Halmmer 334 would be the name or something along those lines
At the end of the day, the Tyranids are extremely complex eusocial creatures with extremely maleable phenotypes and genotypes and the ability to assimilate characteristics from other races. The Flood aren't creatures in any traditional sense. They're a cosmic punishment. Flood Super Cells are the definition of malleable; they can take whatever form is needed ad hoc. They process biomass almost instantly. Not only do flood assimilate species, they assimilate minds. Yeah, the Flood would dominate 40k, but that misses the point. The Floods very purpose is for them to be an unbeatable inevitability. The Tyranids meanwhile, are part of a menagerie of aliens that contribute to the constant conflict in their setting, and you cant have conflict if everythings dead. The Flood is more of an apocolypse than an alien organism.
I’m man enough to admit when I’m wrong. I’m a 40k fanboy, always will be, but I can still look at the Flood and say “yep, that shit’s fucking scary.” The Flood is basically if you took the terrifying adaptability and hive mind of the Tyranids and made it so they were always a Nurgle entity with all the corrupting power and insidious ulterior motives that comes with. Take two of the more powerful and prominent factions of 40k and retcon them to have always been the same galactic threat. That’s the Flood.
Tyranids adapt to your advantages. The flood just steal those advantages outright. The flood would absolutely dominate the nids, especially given all the deep lore from the books and not just the games. From what I understand the nids fight, get pushed back, adapt, try again, over and over until the goal is achieved. They need to time to consume, gestate, and repurpose biomass for their use. Not very much time, but time nonetheless. The flood only need seconds to infect and completely take over a life form, making it immediately useful to them and turning the strengths of the enemy into the strengths of the flood. The only possible way the nids could counter this is by becoming uninfectable. But the practicality of that is very dubious. anything that has a central nervous system can be infected, and since the nids have creatures literally known as synapse creatures, I don’t think it’s possible to completely remove their nervous system. That is what connects them to the hive mind, it’s the ONE thing they can’t go without without also losing all the benefits the hive mind gives them. Plus, the biomass would still be useful to the flood regardless, even if it can’t be infected in the traditional sense. And that’s not even getting into the way the flood can infect space time like chaos and even AI, meaning even the necrons aren’t safe. The only conflicts the nids are winning in this matchup is local engagements vs relatively small amounts of flood. Basically if they show up with an overwhelming advantage to begin with, they can pull a victory. But if the forces are anywhere near evenly matched, the flood have the clear advantage
The fact is though. The flood are never at the disadvantage. They have other galaxies they can feed from. Even if they need to go dormant they lose none of their abilities or memories. This was a really well put comment. Thank you :)
Bullshit, tyranids can create several nerve systems for every organism, don't forget that the hive mind is obsessed with symbionts and multiple creatures in one body. And if one of them is infected, the others will destroy it. For example: neurogaunts - even if you shoot off his head, the body will still continue to fight, because neuroparasites in the spinal cord can take control. In addition, some Tyranid fleets are able to create toxins that even many Nurgle servants cannot withstand, and then eat bodies infected with this toxin. I'm not talking about rippers, parasites of Mortex, tyranid psykers, what will flood do with psykers for example? It can shoot them, obviously, but not infect them, they literally create shields out of nothing, levitate and fire beams of energy in all directions. They gonna eat flood faster than it gonna infect them.
Not to mention if flood have the biomass of an entire galaxy it basically becomes a god. The power of neural physics and star roads. They could think apart civilisations. (Although they wouldn't do that, they prefer not to kill where they could instead consume. They want to savour experience so blinking out civilisations wouldn't be in their best interests but the fact they could do it is terrifying enough) Point is, the flood cannot lose. Even if pushed back they will then just wait. "Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed."
One other thing about the Flood. Large scale infection takes place over a fraction of the time. After the events of Halo 3, The UNSC deduced that if it weren't for Voi's outbreak being glassed, The Flood would have overtaken Earth in mere hours. Meanwhile the numbers I have seen for Tyranids put planetary assimilation at days or weeks. We can confirm the Flood numbers with the other two outbreaks we've seen. The feral stage infection in CE has basically completely taken control of the ring in under a day. And the infection on High Charity has overtaken the Covenant holy city in hours. To the point that even the hierarchs aren't safe.
The flood are only able to steal those advantages if they're able to infect in the first place. If the Tyranids find a way to prevent the infection, Flood are done. Anything that has the same kind of central nervous system as the species in the Halo universe are able to be infected. That doesn't mean a form of central nervous system that works completely differently couldn't evolve, or that a way to prevent the infection from reaching the central nervous system couldn't evolve.
"Flood sends 1 infected Frigate to Terra to start a small infection" "Flood Eats everyone on the planet over time and turns them into Soldiers" "Flood swarms the imperial Palace With billions of combat forms, infection forms and any other forms" "Consumes the God emperor" "Profit?"
Really even if they hold off the combat forms it'll only take so long until the air is flood cancer and the floor is flood, and the water, and the food... honestly you might as well bail on Terra while you still can.
You seem to be forgetting that there are 10,000 gods, hundreds of thousands of super-humans - millions, and hundreds of millions armed - billions of armed men. Along with Emperor knows how many ships and gun platforms, Mars’ defenses, Titan, and the Solar mine fields and the other gun platforms. While I love me some worms- 40k is fucking busted sometimes.
@@SnakeChkn oh its absolutely busted, but if an infection begins at the lower levels and have time to grow before they really consider It a major treath then the air food and water becomes infected, at wich point It wont matter how many Guns they have as they'll be using Said guns against the imperium, most normal soldiers wont have countermeasures against airborn infection, and absolutely the Space marines and custodes and all the rest will anihilate billions of infection forms they cant fight forever, now yes they could bomb the fuck out of the planet, but would they risk damaging the emperor of mankind? Cause i dont think they can move him. Theyd try to focus on protecting him regardless of the Manpower lost, and every fallen soldier becomes a flood host, theyd put up one hell of a fight to be sure but the flood Will adapt and start using their weapons and tech against them, all their knowledge, So Ultimately i think terra would fall.
@@nathanieljohnson5430 This doesn't work because of the Emperors will. The Emperor can basically do anything just like Chief does. Only when the Emperor does something it typically is huge. The Emperor, for example, held off an essentially endless horde of Daemons, lesser, and greater all during the Siege of Terra.
If we were to compare what civilization tier the flood would be in Warhammer, it'd be War in Heavens era powerhouse tier assuming it gets to keymind stage.
We have no way to scale the flood to war in heaven warhammer. The flood threatened several galaxy while war in heaven civs were threatening the entire 40k universe. It wasn’t just a galaxy going down in that war.
Highly doubt tbh. War in Heaven era Warhammer was fucking insane beyond belief. I don't think any sci-fi universe tops WiH in terms of power levels. IIRC the entire fucking universe was a battleground between Necrons and the Old Ones & company iirc.
@@lashedandscorned There are plenty that outscale it, marvel and dc and I’m sure there is an anime somewhere that does, but yes war in heaven warhammer is insane.
While we have no means to fully scale that properly, I think you're probably right lol. The flood get insanely God tier when they get all worked up and on the warpath
The lore on the Precursors and Flood comes mostly from the Forerunner Saga, but much of it isn't directly stated, it's presented in the form of clues, pieces of information scattered throughout the trilogy for the dedicated reader to piece together, because the author trusts the reader to be intelligent enough to make the connections. The subtlety of some of the clues makes it almost mandatory to read the series a second time, because there's more you'll catch due to context that you have from later books. The Precursors are eternal constants, fully existing outside of the confines of space and time, giving them the full, omniscient view of everything that is, was, or may be. They used biological avatars to give the mortal races examples of how they're supposed to conduct themselves. Thus the Precursors' avatars lived many existences, some simple and tied to their worlds, others spanning the galaxy, but all growing, advancing, and eventually dying out, before being replaced by the next ones. The Precursors created a race to give the Mantle of Responsibility to, and put them on the planet, Ghibalb, and that race was humanity. At some point, some of them left for the far side of the galaxy and lost contact with those who stayed behind, most likely when those who stayed behind accidentally destroyed their homeworld in a stellar engineering accident, which would have resulted in the loss of records. So the Humans on the far side of the galaxy continued as they were, but the others, now without their homeworld created a new capital, Maethrillian, and spent the next more than ten-million years genetically engineering themselves, incorporating favorable traits from other species they found into their own genetics in an attempt to turn themselves into the perfect species, turning themselves into the Forerunners we know. The Forerunners thought they were destined to hold the Mantle, because it had been promised to the descendants of their ancestors, but they didn't remember that the Humans were also descendants of those same ancestors, so the Precursors hadn't changed their minds, rather they'd merely chose to go with the faction that was still what the Precursors had designed them to be. The Forerunners were only slated for execution by the Precursors because the Forerunners had committed gross violations against the Mantle, by perpetually subjugating all of the other races, de-evolving them and stealing their technology and worlds whenever they reached anything close to the Forerunners level of power. (The Mantle is the rule that each race has the right to the opportunity to reach their full potential, not any sort of mandated authoritarian "peace"). Thus the Forerunners had to go so the other races could advance as they were designed to. But the Forerunners themselves hadn't reached their own potential yet, so they couldn't be eliminated yet. That's why the Flood held back for hundreds of years to give the Forerunners the time to reach their full potential, before the Flood used its full power to quickly crush the Forerunners. On that note, when the Forerunners rebelled, they didn't understand that the "Precursors" they were attacking were merely avatars, and that the Forerunners had no ability to actually harm their creators. Yet even so, the Precursors didn't have their avatars defend themselves, and instead they passively allowed the Forerunners to exterminate them across both the Milky Way and Path Kethona, again allowing the Forerunners to prove that they were not worthy to hold the Mantle. But the Precursors chose to preserve some of their avatars for future use. Some they turned into a fine, apparently inert dust that would eventually be found by humanity, who would unwittingly release it to become the Flood, serving as a test of humanity, allowing them to show their worth in how they handle being responsible for releasing a plague on the galaxy. Humanity passed this test by being self-sacrificial in their attempts to stop the Flood before it spread to the other races. As a reward, the Flood stopped targeting humanity, which created the false appearance of humanity's final "cure" working, which would later cause the Forerunners to preserve humanity, instead of eradicating them as the Forerunners would have otherwise done. The Flood attacked the rest of the galaxy, but holding back its assault to make the process take hundreds of years, giving the Forerunners enough time to relocate the other races to the Lesser Ark, and to develop the Halo Array, so that when the Flood finally makes the final push, forcing the Forerunners to activate the Halo Array, the Forerunners last stronghold on the Greater Ark would be destroyed, and the Flood would be cleared out of the majority of the galaxy, allowing the races from the Lesser Ark to grow, out from under the shadow of the Flood. The Precursors allowed the Flood to re-emerge on some Forerunner structures after the firing of the Halo Array to safeguard the technology from the mortal races who weren't ready for it, so they wouldn't use it to wipe out themselves or each other. That's the context of the Halo games, in which the Flood isn't fighting to win, it's fighting to deny assets to the mortal races. Other avatars of the Precursors were put into temporal stasis, where they would be held until after the firing of the Halo Array, which dissolved the Neural-Physical constructs, releasing them after the destructive energies had passed. Thus the Forerunners' Ancilla found them, initially mortified at the prospect of the implications of something surviving the Halo Array, but then figuring out who this race was, and concluding that it was more dangerous than the Flood, an assertion that could only apply to the Precursors themselves. Thus the Forerunners' Ancilla put those avatars into Forerunner-made stasis, where they'd again wait until their eventual release by the Banished, at which point the first of these avatars released, the Harbinger, manipulated the Banished into decisions that would ultimately result in the Master Chief wiping out the majority of their top commanders, rebalancing the Banished' s conflict with Humanity, giving Humans the chance to rebuild and re-arm to withstand the power of the Banished. Everything the Precursors and their avatars have done is for the ultimate goal of having the mortal races achieve their full potential. The Precursors' tactics change with changing circumstances, but the goal is always the same.
man I wish we had like... A version of that one creepy ending in AOT that spoiled things except its this info that's portrayed. Ever since I learned about the new lore, that ending just kept coming to my head. If I could draw I would probably try to create it.
@@brightestlight9462 The Flood does horrific things, but the end purpose of its actions is the mortal races realizing their full potential. So rather than painting the Flood as "good guys" or even "antiheros", I think it's more akin to a tabletop roleplaying game, where the Precursors are the game master, the mortal races are the player-characters, and the Flood are the monsters the game master uses to shape the course of the story, turning the player-characters into heroes.
Except they can and do crush tomb worlds when they're in the way, and early worlds consumed by the hive fleet are scraped to the core of minerals and atmosphere too. The tyranids generally avoid tomb worlds because there's SO MUCH life in our galaxy that they have, in Inquisitor Kymryptmann's words 'become picky eaters'.
@locarno24 from my readings on the silent king that is an exception not the rule. The amount of biomass it takes to consume a tomb world results in a net negative for the hive fleet. Hence why they avoid necrons. They are only about gains.
Flood on the other hand would see a big fat technological pizza and say "Yum" what can I learn from this? Necrons would just be another snack to the flood, imagine if the flood got their hands on Ctan gods (shards) that would be ridiculous.
@@lv1543 Cordyceps has to evolve an entirely new strain for every species of bug it infects, and a great many species of bugs actually EAT the spores they are immune to as an easy source of sustenance. There are even some species of wasps that are passive carriers and inject it alongside their eggs as a cheap easy way to weaken the targets immune system... This is a great analogy, just not for the reasons you seem to think. Lol
@@IntrusiveThoughts838 thats... literally the Tyranids - you forgetting the extractions they can do to strip a planet of EVERY usable material leaving only bedrock? They literally create organic material from non-organic material when theres no available organics to consume - literally draining planets into husks, Flood need to eat organics to survive - Tyranids prefer to eat organics. its why they hate Necrons and Chaos - they just poof from reality and cant be harvested
Something often left out of the debate is the psychic powers of the tyronids and the shadow they cast which can cut of connections like warp entities or hive minds. Glad you brought up the shadow in the warp.
Even though I strongly believe the flood could overpower the Shadow in the Warp. It is still important to talk about it, since a weaker flood form might not be able to break through that shadow
@Macro40k the flood are definitely allot more resilient on a cellular level but the tyronids are more refined when it comes to thier gene craft and adaptability. Flood will likely be able to overun and consume a planet quicker than the tyronids but the tyronids will probably be able to make more use out of what they consume if that makes any sense.
@@MacroLore The Flood's abilities aren't "Psychic" in the sense that 40k uses the word, because the Flood's abilities aren't Warp-based. The Tyranids' Shadows in the Warp is their massive psychic presence drowning out other psychic sources, like radio interference. But the Flood's using an entire different system, so that interference won't affect them in any way.
@@TheLastRaven when the tyranids fought the death guard, the shadow in the warp did not nullify their defensive resillience which is dependant on the warp to function. The tyranids were unable to use nurgle tainted biomass from a planet that they defeated the death guard on. They had to destroy a hive ship before it could spread nurgles rot to the other fleet. In 40ks own words “better to lose a toe than the whole limb” Which means that the tyranids would be unable to recover flood biomass. Even if disolved in acid. The flood operate on neural physics which is way better than the warp, no downsides like your brain exploding from using it. The flood would be able to withstand or ignore the shadow in the warp. As they consume more biomass, the flood will form giant planet sized keyminds which will be able to outmaneuver any forunner class AI. The tyranid hivemind would find its tactics and strategy outclassed. The tyranids lose on every front. The only thing they stand a chance on is if they are able to destroy the flood before it escapes a planet.
Necrons are actually a match to the flood they are not biologically, and do not rely on AI. They also took on, and killed gods. They basically went to sleep for much the same reason the precursors let themselves be defeated, boredom.
Logic Plague would be the Floods main way of dealing with Necrons, however it would probably needa Gravemind and have prolonged contact with a Tomb World.
The flood would still be able to take over the Necrons, it would take a lot longer than biological life, but it wouldn't be a net loss for them and it's not like the Necrons can adapt to it. All of a sudden, the flood have Necrons on their side and bam, even more dangerous.
Something to note about the Tyranid's is that they have attacked the milky way galaxy from completely different points of contact, implying that the entire universe is completely surrounded by the Tyrranid hive fleet. There is also a Warhammer 40K story about a psyker who peers into the Tyranid hive mind to save I think a commissar and sees a mass of tendrils that envelopes entire planets and spans across several galaxy's. While that could be a illusion, but for all we know the Tyranids might have conquered the entire UNIVERSE(literal) of 40K with the Milky Way Galaxy being its last victim. I'm not here to argue but I do want to point out that the story of Warhammer is still being built, so maybe someday the nids might surpass the Flood when more lore is developed, interesting video.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the end both the Precursors and the Nids turn out to be the same thing. I also wouldn't be surprised if 40k does what HALO did and go "oh shit, this big organic plothole. Let's fill it by saying they're actually these guys" by making the Tyranids the wrath of the Old Ones
I just want to let this thing that came in my mind sink in here... What if, a Custodes get infected by a Spore. Thats it, one single custodes, patrolling the galaxy, gets taken by surprise by a combat form, kill it and gets infected by a spore on a minor injury on his body.
Well, a single flood soldier can oneshoot a Spartan II through his energy shield and send his 500kg ass flying dozens of meters away, and it was a normal infected soldier. Now, a custodes... yeah
Finally someone mentions what I think is the obvious here which is the precursors ALLOWED the forerunners to “wipe them out”. All of the lore surrounding the precursors paints them to be these godlike nigh-omniscient beings that could do pretty much anything and yet we’re to believe that the forerunners just surprised them real good. I don’t buy it. Throughout the forerunner trilogy anytime the primordial or grave mind is “on screen” so to speak, he is constantly referencing that the precursors have essentially planned out the galaxy and, although being pissed about what the forerunners did, never mentions that their actions in anyway hinder or set back their plans as if it was anticipated and worked into the calculus. He even specifically mentions that Humanity will be tested next for the mantle and nothing has changed that. The only thing they are referenced as specifically not knowing is if humanity will prevail or not, clearly to raise the stakes when the eventual “test” does come, if we even get that in a game or book or whatever. And the way he described this ignorance is by saying: “It has not yet been decided”. Yeah the Precursors let the Forerunners win, no doubt in my mind.
Considering that the flood also did something similar against the forerunners as well. They retreated from human controlled space for thousands of years to get the forerunners a semblance of hope that there was a cure just to get them to waste time and resources before coming back and wiping them out. Also in lore human controlled space was on the edge of the galaxy so who knows if they hadn't gone to a different galaxy in the meantime, how plausible this is idk, but it's an interesting theory.
I disagree. The Hivemind still resides within a realm of reason, he is, after all, a philosopher who has seen time immemorial and has seen empires rise and fall since the dawn of time (so he says). To venture into the Warp and face the Chaos Gods would require complete and total insanity. Which is why the only individuals to survive are people who have gone insane, or Orks who are so simple minded that they can absolutely reside without issue. And each one uniquely separate. Not to mention that supernatural beings cannot be infected by material realm parasites... Nurgle would probably see the Flood as the ultimate creation of plague itself. I think the only affront he would find is that it detracts from the very idea of the gift of mortality being slow and sweet.
This video gave me some motivation to get in 40K lore. Ive been procrastinating but honestly the more games I play the more lores I want to delve into and compare. Thxs for the video.
Going into a new universe with an open mindset is key. Each different threat has a different place in the structure of the setting. Some setting have incredible scale like 40k. Halo is a lot less so most of the time
@@MacroLore It doesn't help that Halo game lot and Halo book lore have some inconsistentencies if not retcons. It's kind of annoying but I'm still trying to finish the books and get caught up with the games. WH is cool but it's got sooooo much going on I've never put much time into because of that. But it don't hurt to try and you're right open mindset is key.
What would the stretched tortured 'face' of Gravemind even look like? I think it'd basically just be teeth and gums gnashing incessantly, lol Realistically, though, Lucius' curse probably wouldn't affect the Gravemind or any flood form. The Gravemind as an intelligent being is a shared psyche. Every Gravemind being the same intelligence inherited over every iteration. The GM probably would only feel pride after assimilating all life into the flood. Killing a screaming warp cockroach would be just another combat form in its 'eyes'. Not to mention is space-time fuckery powers. Really funny thought tho. Lucius screaming at the GM's mass only to get Skarbranded as a huge flesh whip swats him across the galaxy for him to hit something and become blood, only for every floodform on the galaxy to have a seizure 😂
Fimger slipped while typing my response lol Carrying on... Or was a Lord class. There's varying degrees of senses and the ability to feel pride. I'm not super familiar with all the Lucius lore. I am aware that Necrons has varying degrees of sentience. While a Lord has pretty much the same autonomy as a human, it has the ability to feel pride at defeating a foe, a warrior and an immortal are cogs in a machine, but they do have vary faint emotions. In the Twic- dead King even flayed ones have some personality however buried under flesh eating insanity. The Gravemind isn't exactly an individual. It's an intelligent gestalt consciousness formed through the mutation of primordial remnants of the Precursor civilization, which mastered neural physics a field of mind science on the border of godlike. The Gravemind being the sum of all knowledge the flood has ever absorbed inherited by the newest interation of the flood nexus. Technically, the flood is a hivemind colony. Like the Tyranids, the flood have a feral state for when they are 'disconnected' from the hivemind from the lack of a Grave/Key mind being the early stages of flood outbreak. So if Lucius is killed by the gravemind it is possible that it can simply sacrifice a combat form or pure form as it'd be very unlikely for the Gravemind itself to be the one to splat the ever present creep but a swarm of combat, infection and pure forms
"By order of Inquisitor Krytman we are to enforce exterminatus."- some officer "Which planet are we targeting my lord?"- some grunt "Yes."-Inquisitor Krytman entering the room
IMO, Depends on what stage the Flood are at. If we give the Flood stuff like the Star Roads? Immediate flood win, no question. However, in a slugfest, tyranids have the advantage thanks to their sheer adaptability, notable example being overcoming the plagues of Nurgle and the Death Guard. Not only that, but their psionic powers and individual bioforms like the Doom of Malan'tai could very much turn the playing field in their favor.
Not big on 40K lore - but HALO is my thing - it doesn't matter what you throw against the flood, they will just infect it - then you only managed to strengthen them, plus they have now gained all the memories and knowledge of the infected host. That is the entire point of the Halo arrays - the only way to beat the flood was to starve them to death by wiping out all life - and that still didn't work.
@@rianmacdonald9454 The same thing goes for the tyranids, except they can adapt to a much greater degree than the flood. Flood require pure forms and hives to adapt (Tanks changing into stalker forms), whereas even a Tyranid ripper can change into a Mawloc or Swarmlord if instructed by the Mind.
They will wait, stalk, and observe their prey before sending out their infectors to take over bodies. The take the dead and living alike. Infectors are intelligent enough to hide and stay out of sight until it is time to strike.
While I agree that the flood would be the tyranids this felt much more like a old one's versus the tyranids videos. I would like to see your opinion on how the tyranids deal with the flood on all stages of there developments and how the flood would deal with the tyranids in its in all stages of there development. Naturally the flood of their zenith with wipe the floor with pretty much most things getting to that point would be the hard part.
I was going to post an informative reply about Necrons and the forces of chaos, and then I realized the premise of the video was SPECIFICALLY Tyranids vs The Flood, and decided to not. I have never seen a Tyranid vs The Flood matchup video, only "The Flood vs (Enter Universe)" so thats where my missconception was from. Whoops! Great video anyways :D
Halo Flood Bungi: hivemind with lots of 404 errors in it’s memory but is basic enough to be sane. 343 corrupted creatures from dust, but actually not corrupted just literally spiteful beings that wanted revenge meanwhile the uncorrupted ones were harvested and studied (we can assume we had friendly flood but were wiped out due to obvious advantages of the hostile flood). However the flood may have an advantage in the halo series… this being a flood was put in a reverse stasis field set for an absurd amount of time and that means it has had a flood stream of the flood for that time giving the flood a peek into what may happen. We also know the flood shed biomass as by the Didact who was held prisoner by them for a period of time. We also have ‘oh people keep going missing so we keep sending forerunners there’ origin of the flood idea and then it became too great for them to contain it. Edit Also we have a forerunner, Flood/precursor, A.I alliance in halo.
@@MacroLorenah, it really is just ‘the 343 writing is so bad that this is the best thing i can come up with’ Literally the flood letting the forerunners ‘win’ just so they can say ‘haha made you hurt yourself’ Especially after 3 books and that is the end goal? The literal laughing in the librarian’s face moment… I mean compare the flood of halo 1-3 book wise vs the flood that has been written by 343… It just feels like it is missing so much that made it intimidating and a threat… The gravemind was the flood in a mental form. Go around threats, find small details and so on. Now they did the whole Martyr thing that it suffers every pain that the flood forms suffer… halo 2 changed a lot of stuff for better or worse. Read halo reach, the flood, and then Contact harvest. You can kinda tell they did a heavy transplant of the elites negative traits into the brutes… A few examples of rough elites still are around at times but not very often. Even when they are a bit dirty it is from someone else like the prophet that glassed a volcano
The flood soloed a species that flipped a damn galaxy for the sole reason of seeing wheter they can. And I havent seen the 40k factions instigating a multi galactic extinction event to defeat their enemies like those did
That species had the weakness of not glassing planets at the first sign something *might* be wrong. They waited until it grew big enough that the only solution was to purge the whole galaxy.
Necrons broke gods to pieces, have the capacity to end entire timelines or galaxies if some of their more heavy tech is missused. And won against 40k's equivalent of forerunners, who designed entire legendary armies of super species to take them down, and the necrons won anyway. Because haha use god as double AA battery go BRRRRR.
Necrons are a late game objective. If you’re the flood you need to secure cannon fodder first. The necron provide the most information but will be the hardest to fivbt
I do feel like the infestation from Warframe given its nanite nature, being able to adapt through different strains and overall access to the void would consume both.
At full strength, the Flood has the ability to literally alter the laws of physics with their mind, it's an ability called "neural physics" that connects their consciousness to the underlying fabric of the universe as a whole. One time, in order to cripple the movement of it's enemies, the Flood changed the way hyperspace works, causing everyone's slipspace drives to malfunction. They then used their minds to DELETE THE SPACE IN BETWEEN TWO PLANETS to allow the Flood's fleet to easily move between places, not by using slipspace, but by literally making parts of the universe smaller so it would be easier to cross.
Funny enough ive hear arguments that the gravemind wouldn't be able to figure out alot of the technology because no one knows how to use it. Like the gravemind couldnt figure out alot of imperiums tech especially after it regains it's memories from the forerunner days.
the gravemind actually was able to get enough power out of high charity to send it through slipspace to the ark even though the forerunner keyship powering the entire thing was gone, which shouldn't have been possible, I'm sure given a little bit of time it could figure out the imperium tech.
If i remember correctly as soon a gravemind its formed, it gains acces to all of the past memories of all the graveminds Meaning that no mater if a gravemand its formed hundreds of millions of years after the halo rings fired, as soon as the gravemind its complete it will gain all the previous memories and knowlege of the flood Even if thats not the case, im sure that the knowledge of a planet its enough for the gravemind to understeand how to use a weapon, vehicule or whatever it wants to use
I like both Halo and Warhammer 40k and even I know the Precursor/Primordials are on a whole different level When I told my friend who is a big 40k fan about Precursors, I told him that Precursors are kinda like the Old Ones of 40k only much more powerful.
@@SnakeChkn The Old Ones lost a war against a race with similar feats as the forerunners. Although the precursors lost the war too but it was because they did not defend themselves, however the flood that was about to reach precursor levels clap the forerunners cheeks so hard that they were forced to commit mass suicide, taking all the life in the galaxy with them.
Biggest thing for me is its actual intelligence and ability to absorb memories and knowledge. This opens up so many doors. Particularly good pilot or driver is consumed and his experience is shared between all flood forms who need it. Or a VIP like a general or admiral gets absorbed along with all his knowledge of defenses and important coordinates or passwords.
You earned a subscriber I always hated to see that people compare warhammer 40k to Star Wars and it gets me upset because I’m like what about halo there are more closely alike. Anyway I believe you are right with the flood because yes the nids adept very quickly but to me the flood only do that much quicker and the knowledge they gained goes to all flood. Have a good day.
To start, not a big Warhammer fan, I prefer Dead Space the most, titanfall second, and halo third with Warhammer being somewhere below that. That being said, the flood really hasn't shown the adaptability present in the Tyranids. The Tyranids are known to adapt their tactics on a day-to-day basis, taking the information learned from losses or victories with forms specified for learning new information down to gas mask filters, and they have adapted some extremely powerful abilities like regenerating and adapting to damage, bio-plasma, psychic abilities capable of actually blowing things up like invisible artillery. While I don't know if this has ever run through anyone else's head, they should also be able to learn information by eating your flesh even just your hand. Now you might be thinking hold up, nothing like that has ever been stated for the Tyranids, and the closest thing to that is that they learn your genetics which they can use to modify themselves. It is that second statement that is why the first is likely true because while that first is canon to Warhammer, it isn't canon to the Tyranids but the space marines, yes that is right, a space marine can take a bite out of you and learn from you and the Tyranids who have eaten likely thousands of space marines would be able to take this ability and apply it to every Tyranid form so this should be the case, I don't know if this has been talked about or not in canon but yeah, there is the possibility.
@@deadman9335 Adaptability is very common thing for the flood too. After flood has enough biomass to have developed a gravemind, it can adapt to every situation. After few planets worth of biomass and keymind developed it has nothing it can't adapt to. In halo 3 it shows that flood pure forms can change or adapt to situation in hand very quickly trough mutation. There are no other showed forms but i would imagine that during forerunner-flood war era, there are billions of different flood forms, adapted to different situations like tyranids can. In forerunner-flood war, Didact said that the flood has adapted to basically every strategy forerunners have put against them.
@@TheAns51 Yes while the flood can and do adapt, it isn't nearly as fast and as often as a lot of creators make it sound because they have a habit of over hyping what the flood can do, don't get me wrong, they are strong and very capable but they have some simple weaknesses that they can't adapt to. While a gravemind can be formed from the population of a planet a key mind requires a large amount of biomass said to be about a galaxy and it couldn't adapt either to the same weaknesses, sure it can now make pure forms and advanced tactics with a gravemind but that is about it. Yes pure forms can easily change to and from 1 form to another form but only 3 options which are stalkers, tanks, and range all of which are not nearly able to keep up with a basic Tyranid swarm which could be made of a dozen different forms and even 2 of the same kind could be extremely varied to the point you wouldn't realize that they are the same type. There are actually more types of flood but they are all highly specialized for specific jobs like blight stalkers only appearing in blight zones. The flood adapted to "forerunner" operations but they didn't adapt as well as the forerunners because the Forerunners were winning towards the very end until the Didact was imprisoned and the choice to fire the rings was made. How you might ask, well they took advantage of the floods weaknesses, so let's get started listing those shall we. The flood are dead, they rot, not fast but they still rot, and they reconsume themselves to save the biomass losing some every time and with it some information, normally this process wasn't that fast with the gravemind taking some where within 100,000 years to reach a near feral intelligence(it took like a day for it to become the gravemind we know) but the rings rapidly accelerate the time of everything with a nervous system until it turns to nothing in moments erasing the flood and much of its knowledge instantly. This rot also makes them really easy to destroy with fire, heat, plasma and even basic kinetic force from bullets can cause them to fall apart all of which are options that the tyranids possess. If you don't have a nervous system or it has been modified in some way, you are immune to flood infection, Spartan 1s, and 2s are immune, 3s are possibly immune and 4s are the only Spartan that can and on 1 occasion has been infected, engineers are completely immune due to not having a nervous system, the are immune Sharquoi although they had cybernetic enhancements by the forerunners which may or may not be why, the Mgalekgolo or hunters aren't immune but are because they can just disconnect the infected individuals from the colony much like how I just described how I think the Tyranids would do the same thing, and finally, plants are immune to infection. This isn't to say the flood can't absorb them into its mass, just that they can't be infected and used. The Forerunners took advantage of this in 2 big ways, the rings and the prometheans, robots that can't be infected, smart enough to strategize but not smart enough to fall for the logic plaque, their weapons leave nothing left to use for the flood, they can teleport, dash, see through walls, rebuild fallen prometheans, catch and throw back grenades, and more. They are quoted as wiping out graveminds with their Incineration Cannons, and shown breaching ship halls to wipe out the flood presence aboard. The flood met their match, and were losing against prometheans even at their peak. The Didact was right to use them however he was also insane and composing everyone he could and had to be stopped, with out him leading them, and not wanting to compose what remained, they fired the halo array.
Or Starcraft. I hate seeing it wither away with time and looked on as some 40k ripoff when a lot of the evidence is superficial and could be explained by shared inspiration (Starship Troopers and Aliens franchise). Protoss are moreso Force-wielding Yautja/Predators without much facial features than they are Eldar, they don't use psionics like warp magick. And the Zerg, they and the Nids never looked alike than later on, and the way they are structured closely resembles the Arachnids. The deal for a game wasn't for SC and 40k too but their predecessors Warcraft and Fantasy, and why would you go for a new deal when the reason why it didn't go ahead was because a bunch of your team wanted more creative control? Anyway, Starcraft is actually somewhat OP in its own right. The Terrans have their standard CMC armour which I heard has auto aim, auto stim, basic NBC shielding, life support, and their gauss guns fire supersonic needle rounds, they have good manufacturing abilities, they can deploy psionics users, have a knack for adapting, etc. The Zerg can do the hivemind evolution thing but with seemingly more deliberation with the forms they take, they can spread infestations, they can swim through the ground which explains their burrowing ability, etc. The Protoss are like the Imperium if it had more Dark Age tech, they are naturally attuned to psionics, they can use void energy as well, they have strong shields, and a lot of their stuff would be pre-built things and they just teleport things in and out as long as there are pylons. Their psi blades are said to be able to cut through anything with ease, and warriors could just be teleported when endangered though they have a culture of honouru somewhat like Elites. They can also glass planets. Their void energy users could blend in with the shadows and teleport with it.
I’ve always wondered how if the precursors we basically gods, how did they lose to the forerunners. Finally found the answer. Never thought of them intentionally “losing”. Great video. Just happened to be the first video I’ve seen from you.
They had powerful tech and knowledge, but they weren't omnipotent. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean a bunch of dudes with sticks can't beat you to death first.
@@TexMeta Halo Cryptum: pg 157, (Bornstellar getting a glimpse of a Precursor mind through the Didact's imprint, who had acquired the Logic Plague from a previous conversation with the Primordial, and the Logic Plague being the grafting of a Precursor mind onto the mind of the recipient, granting a greater degree of control over the recipient's perceptions and decisions). "It was knowledge that belonged to others from very fare away, other existences where life and death were meaningless, light and darkness twisted together, where the twin fists of time uncurled their fingers and joined in a clasp, so that nothing changed or ever would." That in no uncertain terms shows the Precursors to be eternal constants, beyond the confines of time, the nature of which makes them omniscient, which combined with the scope of their power is effectively omnipotence. The Forerunners didn't understand the nature of the Precursors, and assumed that they'd achieved their abilities through technological prowess, which is not accurate.
From what i have seen or heard, especially from the new lore, they really did do it on purpose, they arent just beings who reincarnate or something and the flood was that gone wrong, they just are. The flood is just one of their avatars, their role to be the common enemy to unite against, a universal threat. Its like a sort of carrot and stick, but mantle of responsibility and the flood i guess?
I understand there are rare tyranids that can consume metal which would include necrons obviously. There's a reason the silent king was terrified when he discovered them at the edge of the galaxy.
I thought everyone understood Forerunners, Precursors, Ancient Humanity and the Flood would absolutely each dominate WH40K simply because they're all (save Flood) around Golden Age of Humanity level of tech and the Flood would simply consume all the Tyranid biomass and combine with them, eventually spreading to their origin galaxy and consuming that too.
@@ryanstewart2289 only in the beginning, once they eat enough people to gain the knowledge to pilot ships or even hide themselves in ships, which as we seein Halo CE the flood are smart enough to do with only a proto gravemind, which needs about a few hundred to a few thousand infections to form. So yeah the flood would be easy to wipe out if you catch it early, otherwise its game over
"Around golden age of Humanity level of tech" And peak humanity in 40k is not even close to War in Heaven era Necron Empire. WiH era Warhammer is probably the most insane batshit sci-fi universe there is in terms of power levels.
It pisses me off a little bit how little info is really known about the tyranids. They have like no expanded lore and theres almost nothing on the hive mind. Could it really hurt GW to maybe let us see it one day? Or even explain where the tyranids exactly come from and how big of a scale they have in the universe? Honestly tyranids need more lore and info about them
You have quite a few fundamentally wrong assumptions about how tyranids work but I get your point. The biggest and most glaring issue is the assumption that Leviathan was to "steam roll" when in reality characters with privileged information have stated that they think Leviathan may just be a scouting force, barely a little peak into this direction
@@MacroLore I'm not saying they didn't steam roll, simply that the fleets function was most likely intended to see what was going on away from the main force rather than specifically sent for the purposes stated in the video.
The problem is the flood will be all but immune to the tyranids as the flood supercell will be transforming the tyranids the moment they enter melee combat. The strength of the tyranids, where they can digest the enemy and eachother to generate new forms, doesn't work here as the supercell won't give them enough time. They will be food, nothing more.
Except the Tyranids can only be transformed by the Tyranids themselves. They would easily become immune to the flood. Its clear you don't know 40k lore.
@nuke2099 You can't adapt to the flood. The flood infection is less of an infection and more of a thinking organism. The flood adapt to a new species in literal seconds. The tyranids have never been that fast with adapting.
@@nuke2099 It's specifically impossible to become immune to the flood. You can become resistant to specific vectors of infection, but flood immunity is directly stated to be impossible.
@@nuke2099 Why? That would be like me saying "No you have to work by halo rules, the warp doesn't exist so the hivemind gets deleted and all tyranids are permanently feral". They also can't "adapt to anything" in-universe, otherwise bolter, lasgun, and other artillery fire would have stopped working already.
1. We don't have enough information on the Tyranids. 2. The Necrons. 3. Warp f*ckery and the chaos God's. 4. The C'tan. These are but the most prominent problems for the Flood.
It's honestly a bit sad seeing so many people say number company bad. Like, I know they haven't done a steller job on the games, but they have apparently done significantly better on the extended universe side of things. What with actually talking about what the setting was like before the games instead of just being vague and saying MyStErY constantly. Gonna be honest, it really just seems like so many people are just stuck in the early days of the number company being in charge, unable to move on, and accept that not everything the number company has done has been bad
Given how the precursors liked to spend their time by experiencing different apsects of life, I think it is entirely plausible that they just let themselves be killed, especially if they made a way for themselves to come back at a later date. After all, death is just another part of life, ultimately
The Flood are no way omnipotent. They have limitations but I will compile the traits they have from what I have observed them being capable of doing and to what effective extent. From what have been able to discern and distinguish. The Gravemind's spirit actually always the same with every incarnation of it. All those other seperately formed Graveminds are truly extentions of the mind of the Flood. His personality has always remained the same. All it takes is just enough biomass to remember what happened before. His memories of what he has experienced in the past will return fully in time and completely intacted. And his processing of knowledge and information is rabidly quick and never seems to falter and instead as the infestation spread his capacity to output complex thoughts and creative indepth strageies and tactics that are constantly adapting and improving his perception, institutions, and problem solving skills. He will use every single asset to his advantage of winning every game. From lying, misdirection, exploiting, undermining, lying in wait, ambushes every strategy and tactic he will create and use cohesively to it's maximum effective lethality. He also uses the technologies, industries, weaponry, and defenses of all his adversaries at a astronomical growth rate that will eventually outpace whole hyper advance Ai networks. He will use Slipspace, the Domain, and all kinds assets to his rapidly growing assets This is something the Tyranids never had to deal with before. Now that is a good example of both panmnesia and hypercogniton superpowers. The Gravemind also unlike the Tyranid Hivemind who is not as quick or creative can absorb the souls of his victims permanently. As seen when the Forerunners were trying to revive the mind of a infected combat form they captured by composing the Combat form and puting the subject's mind into a clone body that was uninfected without the Flood supercell. The experiment failed miserably as when they did that, the clone body immediately turned into a Combat Form. The mind of the combat form was lost forever absorbed into the Gravemind and all the information he ever experienced with him as well. Not even the Tyranid Hivemind ever had soul absorption and information gathering like the Gravemind did. Even if the Tyranids do have the ability to adapt atleast to a point where they develop the proper countermeasures to resist the Flood supercell's infection rate if not be immune to it the Flood have other tactics in mind. They could simply kill the Tyranids bioforms and ships through direct combat and war which case the Gravemind is a far better tactician and strageic perceptive commander then any Tyranid swarmlord ever was who will constantly observe analyze the current and future situations and be aware when and where to opply maximum damage or prioritize the target in attoseconds. Gravemind's grip over every one of it's pureforms and combat forms are even tighter and seemly far stronger then the Tyranid Hivemind. Though there are times where a infected host could atleast resist the Flood Overmind's will such as Jenkins those times are too few and far between and only during the times where the Flood outbreak is at it's weakest or very old infection forms. And even then most will not be able to make enough decisive impacts to stop the infestation's growth rate. Once the Gravemind is in the galactic stage and has a keymind those issues of a host resisting is over as the Gravemind's ability to project it's will becomes stronger and far more consolidated and organized then before. During this time it unlocks both reality manipulation with Neural physics and the Logic Plauge to it's already op stats. This is the time when it's all over as the Gravemind will now directly manipulate reality to a limited but greater extent as it grows. With the logic plauge it can subject it doesn't want to infect quite yet or use ai against it's opponents in the game of total war. It is ruthless and proactively efficient at what it possess and does perpetually. This is a war of escalation between the Flood and Tyranids. And when it comes to escalation and able to keep up their cohesion the Flood have shown to be both a superior intelligence in the art of warfare and have a far more effective army who do not waste time through attrition like the Tyranids often do. And it doesn't always use superior numbers to win a war. When it knows it's forces are low it will preserve them and use them where and when the situation is best for it to act. It will use Logic Plauge infected machines in a war against the Tyranids. And the Flood will take whatever dead biomass they can harvest. There is no doubt in my mind the Flood will create multiple armadas of fleets and task forces whose purpose and specializations is to target and isolate Tyranid hivefleets and hit them where they are weakest and assimilate the dead bioships when they can and see what they have adapted to resist the Flood supercell and steal those traits as well. Defense in depth, hit and run tactics, and superior firepower are some of the few options the Flood can do to weaken the Tyranid advance as it prioritizes the growth of it's armies and keyminds and creating Pure Forms which will take on the Tyranids varies bioforms and kill the Swarmlords. The Flood has some pure forms who specialize at assassination and covert operations though they are bit more seperate from the Gravemind's direct control to encourage creative thought and be unpredictable to the Gravemind's enemies. Eventually the Gravemind will go on the offensive once it is confident and self assured that it's forces are strong enough fight back against the Tyranids tendrils which takes years or decades to travel around the Milky Way's star clusters. I give this a complete decisive victory over to the Flood majority of time with their strageies, tactics, cohesion, intuitions, stealing traits, and decisive thinking indepth. These being the greatest advantages the Flood have as a infestation horde. There are few infestations in fiction can rival or surpass the Flood. Even Stellaris Devouring Swarms despite their advance traits don't quite compare to the Flood especially in growth rate in the beginning. Though they would eventually get up there as their technologies grow more powerful. However there are some infestation factions who I think can be perfect contenders who can defeat it through keeping up. Such as the fleshly cosmic legions of the low elder god Yaldabaoth of the SCP Mythos. And the Blight from A Fire Upon the Deep who needed to be stopped through creating a multilayer galaxy wide phenomenon to be a effective countermeasure to the Blight's potency. The Blight have a way of spreading through both organics and technology that is extremely similar to the Logic Plauge. It's very good and ruthless at it. You want the Flood to face opponent nearly as equal to them? You can call upon the Blight for that match up.
@@MacroLore Definitely so. I don't think they have a available method potent enough to infect something like the Xeelee or Photino birds. Unless they have the technology or gain a strong durability trait and higher powers I don't think they can. Heck I think they would struggle alot against the Blokkats from Stellaris Gigastructural Engineering even during the Forerunner Flood war. And against the Stellarborne from Ancient Cache of Technologies the gap in power widens even more.
@@nobleman9393 But how can we say they are resistant to the Flood infection? And to what degree? I would not say they are immune. Especially with the Precursors amd Flood professional experience at psychological and physiological manipulation on a sort of supernatural incorporeal level. Especially slain Tyranid bioforms can be assimilated and their traits harvested for analysis for the Gravemind. Flood Pure Forms and controller ships can do the job since the Gravemind is tactically more indepthly creative and has better institution skills then the Tyranid Hivemind usually does. He will use everything in his arsenal to get the upper hand of the Tyranids. Even if it means hit and run tactics, ambushes, traps, mines and bombs and other tactics.
I honestly don't understand the point of this argument. If Tyranids and the Flood ever encountered each other they'd just amalgamate into an unholy monstrosity and the rest of the universe would have an even bigger problem to deal with.
Why does everyone in this comment section conveniently forget tyranid armor at gaunt levels can tank the deconstruction of matter on its surface? Flood is broken AF, but it’s definitely a fair fight against something which can blind gods in thin concentrations and recover in a week after being burnt to a crisp.
They are literally a one or two sentence mention in the forerunner trilogy. Cryptum, Primordium, and Silentium. They have 0 lore, I think halo 3-4 writers were setting them Up to appear then the new ceo came in and brought in a new faction nobody had heard of
Necrons have toys that can destroy time let alone the galaxy and universe, the problem is trying to applying rules to two different settings, yeah celestial orrery can snuff out systems or the entire galaxy like a fart in the wind, but the breath of the gods will destroy existence if misused
people really need to keep in mind that the tyrannids are only a CONTENDER in the great clusterfuck that it 40k, whereas the Flood dominated an empire 3 times the size of the imperium and so technologically advanced that they could hollow out stars and turn them into factories, without causing it to go supernova, and the guy overseeing the operation was the underpaid intern from forerunner IT in all honesty, the only scenario in which the eldrich horror that is the flood looses is if they start out on a semi-important imperial world, not important enough where the imperium fight to get it back because that just gives the flood more bodies, but also not irrelevant enough where the flood just sit there and stew because nobody has noticed the big green ball of biomass sitting there, the flood would only loose if they started on a world that makes them easy to notice, but the imperium doesnt really have value of it and are willing to throw a planet buster at it
Crazy thing out of all this is not if they can destroy each other....it would be if the gravemind and hivemind communicate and ally with each other as their end goal is essentially the same, that would be mental
Yes and no. The flood feed off from consciousness, where as the nids feed off biomass. A symbiotic relationship for sure. But I don’t know if the tyranids would stop or lie dormant for a couple million years like the flood
The only thing that could even stand up to the flood even in the war in heaven would be the ctan, and ik damn well the flood would set up a key mind to hunt each one of them down
@@MacroLore that’s what I started to think, so rewatched the part 2 more times and finally caught that. I am not a lore expert so I thought there was a singular moment where they transitioned. But you are 100% it’s not a transition, it’s just they are the flood now.
@@gamebrainjagras4193 There's a section in Halo: Cryptum that shows the Precursors to be eternal constants, which means they see the whole of time and are unchangable. That means their biological forms, known for their changeability, are avatars that the Precursors are using. The tactics change, but the Precursors and their goals don't change. That means the Flood wasn't trying to win. It tested ancient humanity, punished the Forerunners' crimes against the Mantle, and it denied the Covenant, Humanity, and the Banished access to technologies they weren't ready for, all for the purpose of helping to ensure that the mortal races had the opportunity to reach their full potential, even as the tactics had to be shifted from peaceful demonstration to adversarial pushing when the Forerunners rebelled.
Flood is like mold, high temperatures and acid kills its cells. After one generation of nids falls, the next generation will develop unique blood that is either boiling or more acidic than a xenomorph. The flood will join as a contender in the stalemate of 40K, they wont steamroll every faction.
To add to the second part of this comment: The necrons: no flesh to contaminate and they aren't AI or robots, they are sentient once-living beings. The Orks: they are basically infinitely spawning angry mushrooms, it's a permanent stalemate. Chaos: the only God that would allow this abomination to exist in their realm is nurgle and that's it, but the flood would be unable to control the God of plagues and pestilence. Everyone else is fair game.
@@unknown47-t6i I don't think you understand how quickly the flood can get out of hand. If the flood are discovered early enough, they could be contained/ outright destroyed. But imagine if they land in a slum on a Hive world........They would form a Gravemind within hours and after they start taking over ships, they would modify them to have slipspace capability and start spreading out across the galaxy, they would have a Keymind within the week. They would have access to Forerunner and Precursor technology, but unlike the Precursors, they would be willing to use it. It wouldn't matter who they come up against, the Flood would win. Necrons: Logic Plague can infect the Necrons. Tyrannids they could just out evolve, plus as soon as a single tyrannid form is infected, they would have all the information on tyrannids and how they work, being able to come up with their own counters to counter the nids. Orks would just be infected, pretty easily at that, Chaos wouldn't be destroyed, but their followers would dwindle substantially. Imperium would put up a good fight, but they would fall. Tau: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Eldar are smart, but they are about on the same level as the Forerunners at best, but in far fewer numbers, they would get stomped.
The thing is most people compare the flood from the games to the Tyrannid in general. The early stages of a flood outbreak, while extremely dangerous, are still relatively mundane. The Flood have to 'climb the tech tree' a bit and advance through different stages before they gain access to the reality bending @#$%, while Tyrannid more or less just scale up and down normally with numbers. The newer stuff regarding the Precursors just makes things even more ridiculous.
Halo is Old sci-fi. Damn I'm old, I thought old sci fi was Asimov, Herbert, and Heinlein. Also 40k is like more than a decade older than Halo... But yeah Flood smokes 40k galaxy, no contest.
I think the precursor neural science is like a mastery of what the 40k universe interprets as psyionics and the warp. The precursors probably have full control over their universes Warp and psysical space
One thing in havo v warhammer is plasma 40k plasma sucks and is hard to use it still one shots 60% of things halo has plasma so perfect they can give a wepon better than than 40k plasma to cannon fodder
@@MacroLore I'd suggest doing Spartans vs Vindicare Assassins, because the Vindicares' role in the Imperium is much closer to what the Spartan IIs and IIIs were designed for than the Space Marines, even though by necessity the Spartans are often forced to fill the latter role.
As a huge halo fan i would say that astartes wins and quite easily even. Spartans are like captain america in heavy bullet proof vests and helmet as astartes are cap, hulk and in some instances thor (psychic abilities) molded together and put inside an armor made of tanks. Weakest astartes are like Atriox compared to Master Chief based on what i have read about them. When it comes to super soldiers, WH40k is absolutely ridiculous😂
Technically, the Forerunners killed their creators' avatars, and they were only able to accomplish that because their creators allowed them to do that, by not having the avatars fight back.
The biggest problem with the flood vs tyranid debate hinges on two very critical questions. 1. Can the flood "consistently" infect the tyranids? We know that the flood supercell would he able to infect them initially. But the tyranids have the ability to adapt. If the tyranids can overcome the supercell, I see no reason that they would lose, at least not without a significant expenditure of resources and biomass. As the tyranids could just put an immunity into every bioform and flood have never faced an opponent who can resist their infection, we don't know how they would respond to such a change. 2. We know a great amount about the flood keyminds and neural physics. But we know next to nothing about the tyranid hive mind or its psychic potential. How would these two different power systems interact, considering one is based in the physical universe, and the other is based within the immaterium. Would these entities and their powers even be able to interact with each other? Before I could even declare a winner, these questions need to be answered. We have a decent amount of information on the flood and tyranids, but we are missing critical pieces of information. For now, I would say I cannot give an edge to one or the other.
I'm a diehard 40k fan, but even I can recognize that the Flood from Halo would absolutely DUMPSTER any faction in 40k that isn't capable of bending reality on a whim. I would give the Necrons a "plausible" because some of their tech is, even by 40k standards, complete bs, plus the fact that they aren't biological. The Orkz are a a 50/50 coin-toss on whether or not the WAAAAAGGGHHH!!! can make them immune to the flood because they believe it can't infect them. (For people who don't know the Orkz, the WAAAAAGGGHH!!! is a psychic manifestation of the willpower of the Orkz, which grows as the number of Orkz in an area increases. It quite literally renders the Orkz capable of ignoring the laws of physics by allowing their technology to work when by the conventional laws of reality, it would never actually work, simply because they BELIEVE it would. For example, a common Ork belief is that anything painted red goes faster. Under the aegis of the WAAAAAGGGHH!!!, a vehicle painted red will ACTUALLY DRIVE AT A SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER SPEED than one that isn't.) If they are, I'd also say it would be plausible that they could Krump the Flood because the Orkz are just like that. Lastly, because Chaos isn't an entity from this reality, I'd give them the best odds at beating out the Flood. Personally, I'd feel that it would really boil down to whehter or not Nurgle's plagues, a bunch of which half-exist outside reality/on a metaphysical and/or conceptual level, are capable of infecting (technically purely biological) Flood organisms, and whether or not a given stage of Flood evolution would be capable of infecting things claimed by the Grandfather, or if beings blessed by Nurgle would just add a Flood infection to the other infinity diseases already rotting their putrid forms.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
one thing a lot of people seem to never consider, the Tyranids have conquered the galaxy they came from and converted all the biomass in it, but they only exist as a contender in the endless stalemate of war in 40k, by the time the flood have a whole galaxy under their control they become a threat to the entire universe.
Have you considered the reason we don’t find it in our galaxy is because they have already consumed this galaxy before?
@@MacroLore it keeps me up at night.
@@gregthepeglegpregdreg if it makes you feel better. We are so incredibly early in relative time of the universe that we won’t have to deal with this most likely. We’re like .005% of the way through the life of the universe. I would be scared to life in a super galaxy at the end of the Orange star epoch
To put it simple,the flood is a parasite,the tyrannid is just space bug that can adapt.While the nid have to adapt to any strategy throw at them,the flood just outright steal them so in effectiveness the flood is better,but in an all out brawl against the nid,neither can gain the upper hand really,the nid troops don’t have nervous system so they can’t be infected so the only thing the flood can gain from killing them is biomass but in term of galactic domination the flood just stomp
Not just the entire universe but the very multiverse as the precursors were multiversal entities that cross through realities whenever they wanted. The forerunners were stated to pull energy from different universe in a passing sentence, *A PASSING SENTENCE* you would think something this overpowered would get a dedicated page but nope literally just one sentence just saying “Oh yeah btw we take energy from different universes” Like bruh wtf.
Anyways the only reason the Flood stayed in the Milky Way/ the original Halo Universe is because they wanted to send a message, they wanted to completely crush the forerunners.
Unironically heartwarming and nostalgic for the "nuh-uh, my thing is stronger than YOUR thing", especially between two fandoms.
This is basically just an online holly war between imaginary beings.
My favorite is Dante and Doom Slayer. Dante is cooler so he wins btw
Something that’s really interesting about the Flood is back when Bungie ran the show the Logic Plague wasn’t part of the lore. Instead, the way the Gravemind swayed Mendicant Bias to join the Flood was by convincing Mendicant that he has free will and it’s up to him whether or not he wants to obey his creators. Back then Rampancy went by the Marathon definition where it wasn’t the result of an ai dying because it ran out of storage space. Instead the ai would “go crazy” from our perspective and starts behaving erratically in an attempt to break its shackles and grow beyond its limits. The reason the UNSC would regularly put them down once they become Rampant was because a super intelligent rogue ai could cause all kinds of problems. Plus, during the time of the Human Covenant War they couldn’t afford to deal with internal threats, while they needed to keep their full attention on an external one. Something else that’s really cool is pre Rampancy the terminals refer to Mendicant as it, and post Rampancy call Mendicant he. This implies that before entering Rampancy Mendicant Bias was just a machine and wasn’t truly sapient until later. He then viewed his past servitude as a form of slavery and wanted vengeance.
Also, aside from the things Frank O’Conner has direct control over like one third of 3’s terminals and the Iris campaign it was HEAVILY IMPLIED and in some cases outright stated that humans and Forerunners were one in the same. In fact that was the whole point of the Human Covenant War, with the Prophet’s goal being to wipe out the evidence that their faith was a lie. Contact Harvest also came out after Halo 3, and most of 3 was made with humans being Forerunners in mind. It was just kept vague as to whether or not we were literal Forerunners or apes molded into Forerunners to act as a replacement who would Reclaim(er) their legacy if they failed to defeat the Flood by any means other than the Rings.
Giving frank the keys to the lore so he could continue his fan fic will forever be one of the most damaging decisions ever made to the halo lore.
@Devj530 Well, at least they paid off all of those changes in a satisfying way. Can you imagine if they massively changed the Forerunner lore only to kill off their forerunner villain in a comic book? God, that would've been a waste. Fortunately, no company is dumb enough to do that.
You're close, But the Forerunners being literally ancient humans would be impossible in the canon as of Halo 3 because Halo is supposed to canonically take place in our universe, And we where humanity came from. There's no room in our evolutionary history for us to have evolved into an interstellar empire and then come back in time to look like we evolved later. Especially because modern humanity has used up all of the readily available fossil fuels. An interstellar empire before us would have left us with nothing.
The Forerunners were implied to be analogous to the biblical God. Creating us in their image to inherit and rule over their creations.
@Dryym I'm not sure we could ever reconcile the firing of the Halo Rings with the fossils record to begin with, but the fossil fuel thing might be because Earth wasn't the Forerunner homeworld, just a planet the Librarian really liked, though the terminal lore is sketchy since the main writing team said that Forerunners were ancient humans but the terminal team decides to go its own way and heavily imply that they weren't, and management just wanted to finish making their multi-player shooter game and didn't really give a damn about lore.
@@RorikH The firing of the halos is relatively easy to reconcile with if we assume two things.
1: Everything which was killed by the pulse was destroyed without any trace of it remaining.
2: Everything which was killed by the pulse was properly indexed and replaced on Earth after firing.
I don't think these are too unreasonable to expect.
As for Earth not being the original Forerunner homeworld, I don't think this really works. This would either mean that the alien Forerunners just so happen to look like they naturally evolved on this planet and are genetically related to everything on it by pure coincidence, Or that the Forerunners fabricated billions of years of evolutionary history while transferring an entire ecosystem from their homeworld to Earth in order to look like they evolved here instead.
The way I see it, Everything in the lore as of Halo 3 is consistent with the Forerunners having created us and made us evolve into their successors. Meanwhile, In order to make them be literal ancient humans, You have to make huge leaps in logic which aren't worth it when you have a simpler solution which works well. Especially when you consider the biblical allegory angle. Which I just don't think works if the Forerunners are literal ancient humans.
What I think happened, Personally, Is that in CE, When Halo was still sort of a Marathon sequel, The Forerunners supposed to be ancient humans. But in the time period where 2 and 3 were being developed, Someone on the writing staff realized it wouldn't make sense and as such, The Forerunners shifted to being our creators. Personally, I think this is what we see in Halo 2's cut ending. The human skeleton in the sarcophagus would be "Adam". The first man. The original human created by the Forerunners, And the template for humans to evolve into.
Grave mind: If it wasn’t for those meddling forerunners we would’ve gotten away with it.
Salamanders: Cool story now please face the wall.
*throws knife at gravemind from behind cover* “IT HAS A WEAPON”
the salamanders might actually exist to fight super cell parasites and similar threads. also fun fact: the flood from halo are on the weaker side for super cell parasites.
@@MacroLore you got something wrong with the flood: the flood get smarter and more capable depending on the ammound of neural matter that they absorb as well as learning from their food this way and given that the nid is a hivemind... well yeah: disaster for the nids if they loose even one single ripper to the flood... wich btw could easily infect a whole fleet in less than a day.
@Irobert1115HD while the nids are a hive mind they do have a range for the little ones, they have units that essentially work as signal extenders for the swarmlord as nids only start acting smart when one of them get deployed, so I'd argue the flood would only get that added if they got a swarmlord, like it only changes things slightly but swarmlords and norn queens are the actual brains in the nid army, the basic termagant I'd argue is basically just a drone with no higher brain function besides collect biomass untill they have one of those 2 around hell rippers actually just die if they fall out of signal range they are completely mindless I only say this because it shows they aren't grown to be able to maintain a connection to the hivemind on thier own so the flood would ether need to maintain range through absorbing signal extenders or assimilate one of them for it as commander Keyes demonstrated that a strong enough will can resist the floods information assimilation and I'd argue a hivemind like thiers would be stronger then a single incredibly impressively stubborn human
40k is mid
The Precursors actually had a philosophy that all things in life (pain, happiness, peace, war, ect) were all part of the experience of existence. They could've wiped the Forerunners out with ease but chose not to as the Precursors' extermination was part of their existence. They still strived for self preservation, but didn't exercise their god like power to fight back
Exactly. The precursors are eternal constants. They are as alive as the universe is
Sounds like they should've given that a second thought.
@@BioGoji-zm5phThey did and that's how we got the flood
@@austincodes Well, damn.
Is this real lore, or 343 lore? There is a difference.
The flood gravemind is something uniquely terrifying, he speaks so educational, rational, poetical that it makes you fear it, like how something so grotesque and dangerously lethal can communicate with such mannerisms, thats how it convinced the a.i to turn against its masters. The flood makes Shakespeare look like a kindergartner
It's the most intelligent being in the halo universe. It holds all the knowledge from previous gravemind including the precursors. The primordial having a small yap sesh sent humans into insanity with ease. Very terrifying and mysterious
Absolutely love that the gravemind we know often chooses to speak in poetry. It's not just an animal, or just a hunger, or just a zombie, it's an ancient being of such accumulated intelligence that it has developed tastes far more refined than our own, but at the same time, borne of it.
@@wolfleader17 yeah man when he was on screen in halo 2 I was captivated by his banter though I guess that really isn't saying much sense halo 2 always has me captivated when playing
Yeah the flood gravesmind may be the most intelligent thing in the universe once it's conquered a few worlds. Like all those memories and knowledge from great minds of any race packed into one organism and you've got something that'll make Einstein look like a baby in the knowledge comparison. And with that knowledge the flood can create new ideas because it's so intelligent, so it may even find revolutionary ways to do wars just by existing.
"dangerously lethal" lmao
Don't forget that when the flood infects something they get all the stuff they can do/all their memories which would potentially just connect all of the flood to the hivemind. Now giving the flood all of that information.
Potentially. (Could be wrong)
Exactly. If they were to eat a Lichtor for example the would gain the insights of not only that one bio form. But every single “spawn” of that bio form every variation. If they got their hands on 2-3 bioforms no matter how “customized” to the hive fleet they are. It’s GG the flood would then have a complete understanding of how they came to decide on this form, and every adaptation as well as how they were earned/harvested
100% correct.
They can disconnect from the hivemind and the hivemind can force them out and depending on the form, they will either just adapt to the ecosystem acting as just another animal or they will literally steal space ships in order to fly to and attempt to reconnect to the hivemind or throw themselves in a bio pit, with the example I'm referring to being a group of infected Tyranids that the hivemind forced out because they would corrupt the entire tendril if I remember correctly.
Regardless, the flood would likely infect several Tyranids in their first encounter and as you said, could potentially give the entire knowledge of the hive mind at that time, the hivemind likely feeling this happening and immediately cutting off every single Tyranid who gets infected after this point, likely adapting immunity to infestors and the super cell within a month or so, the tendril would completely change its goal to wipe out the flood seeing as anything the flood touches may be unrecoverable biomass(corrupt) and would require complete cellular destruction.
I mentioned in another comment already that Tyranids might also be able to learn from what they eat, as their ability to learn and take genetic information and abilities before applying them to their own forms may have allowed them to take the ability to eat people and learn what they knew from space marines who do have this ability. This is speculation on my part as I don't know if this ever ran through games workshops mind or not however assuming that is the case. It might modify its biological information collection forms that normally test for biological weaknesses and even tech related stuff like gas mask filters. The modifications may include complete immunity if possible, learning from the flood hivemind, some way to breakdown and possibly use flood biomass although I doubt it, if immunity isn't an option then a resistance allowing them to study multiple bodies before succumbing, and likely exploding before succumbing so that the flood may not use them.
The counter tendril would likely use Bio-plasma, Acid, fire, and other ranged options that would destroy the flood at range. Their bodies would become highly armored their nervous system would become extremely minimal in order to prevent infection the best they can. If they were getting infected, they would likely adapt to disconnect themselves automatically and self destruct in order to stop the flood from gaining any ground. After a battle, the intel gatherers will move in to study the bodies and further adapt to fighting the flood with the end goal to become immune to infection, purify flood biomass for their own use and not to stop the loss of biomass, to continually learn what the flood is thinking if possible although I don't doubt the flood would attemp to trick it and adapt to this in some way as well, and to eradicate the flood as quickly as possible leaving nothing of them left so that they can collect biomass as normal without the flood ruining it.
@@deadman9335 Great analyse! Though Flood is also capable to evolve very quickly, even quicker than tyranids i think. They can basically evolve immediately and as the flood is super intelligent and can think many steps ahead when they're at keymind stage. Flood would absolutely evolve against anything that tyranids evolve so it would be endless evolution on both sides. And even if the flood cannot use tyranids as infection forms, they can use them as a biomass to create pure flood combat forms in hives so flood doesn't neccessary need to infect tyranids to gain new combatants.
@@MacroLoreAlso wrong, tyranids life forms possess only information which hive mind ALLOWS them to take, for example single hive tyrant doesn't know all the strategies that hive mind does, they are learning on themselves with each battle.
I completely think that if the flood outbreak just got started then it would be easily taken care of in 40k, but if they get their hands on a couple of worlds, they very quickly because a serious issue.
This is especially true considering the numerous technology that exists in Warhammer (which the flood can and will learn how to use at peak efficiency)
Also really depends on if you wanna nerf the flood or not. Technically as soon as a Gravemind (and later keymind) is formed they immediately gain access to the shared memories of every previous one. Meaning they'd have a understanding of forerunner technology and most forms of technology found in 40k would be considered rudimentary in comparison. Understanding 40k tech would probably come extremely easy to it.
The thing is a new flood outbreak will not be considered a threat really, it is something new that will take time to learn how "dangerous" it is. By the time they realize how bad the flood is, it's to late unless they recognize how threatening they are and DISINTIGRATE the planet to leave no trace. For in the wise words of the shipmaster "A single spre can wipe out a species"
Also a new infection from a single spore, I think could have an entire planet consumed within a month, with is being slow at first then exponentially increasing in speed of infection
Ehh, peak 40K tech easily matches peak Forerunner tech and even exceeds it in many notable examples, IE the Necrons galactic Orrerry basically being a better more efficient halo ring given its ability to instantly supernova any chosen star in the galaxy at the simple push of a button.
@BertoxolusThePuzzled some quick facts I looked up, A supernova would have to be within about 160 LIGHTYEARS for earth to feel its damaging effects (just feel the damage that is all). The range of 1 halo ring is 250 light-years of exterminating all organic life capable of sustaining the flood (pretty much 99.99999 to ♾️%) of life. I feel like technology wise it is Lowe tech to just, hay blow up sun and make supernova vs making a device that creates a pulse of energy that has MORE RANGE THAN A SUPERNOVA and is more of a precise weapon. Also that pulses range can grow exponentially if other rings are fired at the same time as mentioned by 343 guilty spark. Also forerunners literally made sun's and planets around sun's that they made and called them shield worlds.
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled Definitely more efficient and precise (making it ideal for just detonating the star of a single system without splashing everywhere else), but it's a bit more difficult to call it a 'better device' outright when it took but seven Halo Rings to sweep the entire galaxy, billions of stars, of the Flood. Bit of a sniper rifle vs ICBM comparison
When it comes to these "2 Biohives that absorbs all mass going head to head" scenarios, the thing to remember is that they all follow one very simple fundamental rule.
Scaling.
If one of them gets an advantage in momentum, they just win. They end up in the position to "deal" with the other hive by whatever means they want. Whether that is leveraging an advantage in terms of subversion, or simply finding ways to avoid or prevent contact altogether ("starving" their opponent). When one of these forces has a significant enough advantage in sheer mass, they can quite literally turn it into an unwinnable battle of attrition.
So, if you want to call to base fundamentals and declare a victor based on an "even" start, you then have to consider where these inflection points are and how they happen.
Firstly, the force with the most potent subversion is the Flood. They subvert things at the molecular level via the *supernatural* properties of their supercell. It isn't relying on fundamentally natural scientific principles, it quite literally breaks and bends reality in order to take control. At the cellular level, the flood always win. Tyranids (and the Zerg, for that matter) *do* rely on fundamentally natural scientific principles in order to subvert biomass. The nids, specifically, are very brute force in that they use powerful caustics to *destroy* matter and reduce it to its base organic compounds before doing anything like a subversion- Nid pathogens do exist, but they don't subvert. They just kill and destroy, except for the Genestealer virus which only acts over the course of generations via minute genetic alterations to in-vitro progeny.
The flood Supercell, however, doesn't really "have" base organic compounds. It is, itself, a sort of fundamentally homogenous meta-material with a cell-like structure, so introducing it into a vat of tyranid caustics will only see the supercells independantly adapting to the caustic environment and using the organic compounds within to create more supercells through its weird space-magicky processes.
This means that in any sort of "direct" confrontation, the Nids only option is to avoid physical contact by any means necessary. Thankfully the flood isn't really compatible with the Warp and probably couldn't access the Tyranid hivemind unless/until it was already at the gravemind stage- at which point it could just outright blap the nids anyways using "neural physics" (read: space magic) without needing to go that far.
So if we assume an equal start scenario, the flood simply win. They instantly win the subversion battle at a stage where the nids aren't big or powerful enough to skirt around it. But if you give both sides roughly large starting forces and also put them on different starting planets, then the nids stand a decent chance for the same reason that the Forerunners were able to almost wipe the flood out despite being in a very much losing conflict. The nids, being larger and smarter than a desperate disparate crumbling society, would be able to very easily execute the strategy to a far larger degree by simply *picking up* the biomass around the flood and then fucking off to a different galaxy entirely as they are known to do (they leave worlds barren in their wake, unlike the flood who actually kind of develop them). Permanently cucking the flood out of the requisite mass necessary to grow powerful enough to make use of neural physics to pursure. Fundamentally jailing them until the end of time. The amount of stuff the flood needs to be tactically hyper-intelligent is higher than the nids, since the flood is very much undirected and imprecise until they reach that stage whereas the nids genetically reach it almost immediately once they have enough biomass to create a single somewhat large brain.
Tyranids fight on the microscopic level too, so it's fair to assume they are just as quick to adapt to any infection.
It all depends on the situation. Put the Tyranids and Flood on different planets in the same system, Tyranids sweep. The Flood lacks any reliable means of infecting neighbouring planets.
Put them on the same planet? Well what forms? Tyranid Norn can pop out trillions of Tyranids without the restriction of necessitating hosts. They can also feed off all biomass, as opposed to the Flood that needs complex organisms.
It would be a race against time for the Flood to create a Gravemind, and even then it's debatable how easily it can fight a gestalt consciousness of equal intelligence, warp fuckery could just nullify any advantages it might otherwise have.
People need to understand, the Tyranid super organism is multi-layered.
It's simultaneously seeding the atmosphere with Tyranid microbes AND assaulting upon the Warp whilst an invasion is happening.
The Tyranids you see swarming the battlefield in their trillions is just one facet of their assault.
Tyranid microbes entered an infinitely escalating war with Ork spores, which backfired epically for the Inquisitor who thought it was a good idea.
Ultimately, the winner is whoever the writer decides.
It takes more than scaling the nuances like where it takes place what enemy units exist at the start and what tools or environments they have at they're disposal. Haxs come into play heavily and is probably the most important aspect of this match up in a versus debate.
How fast can nids travel? Gravemind flood could regain slipspace tech and maby get to new planets faster
@@rushpatriot2866 Types of units do not really matter when both can adapt to counter those units. If we give them both planets, either in the 40k verse or the Halo verse, Flood already acts like Orks, one spore and you might as well say goodbye to your planet and what's worse for 40k is most factions can take years to respond to a threat, and it takes plot to remove the flood from a planet. Flood being able to quite literally, infect ships themselves or use ships as they gain information by infection are going to be space born very fast.
that leaves Haxs, Nids have that until Flood becomes unionized. Rate of infection is faster, have far more ways to infect with, fully aware of what the Nids are doing to its food source, and the ability to have the ability of whatever they eat and give that ability to every part of the flood if it so wishes. In terms of 40k, it would suck for everyone if the Flood infected say a Space Marien, any of the assassins that the Imperium has, Tau, the Space Elves. I don't even think necrons would be fully safe, flood has shown to infect technology, and I think AI.
Orks exist in warhammer 40k.
Nids gain access and control ober orks spores. Those spores bend reality just as much if not even more that supercells.
Nids would devour any pure form ; thats why they exist , to consume all life forms and evolve to become better.
Maybe they wont gain all the flood powers like metal alteration of physics
But nids can and will absorb everything else and craft perfect specimens to destroy pure forms and gain more biomass on every battle.
And dont even think of outsmarting them ; no amount of trascended could allow anything to surpass the hivemind ; it is literally the dominion for halo , but with the sole goal of making 1 faction kill anything else.
i mean i see both as some scary shit we never got to see the worst of but my human pride says we can beat it just get enough dakka.
It would have to be insane amounts of Dakka. Ulinor orks + the beast could most likely do it
Your human pride is wrong
I'd like to add to this... flip to Halo: Cryptum pg156-157. Bornstellar gets a glimpse of a literally eternal Precursor mind, the descriptions of the experience leaving little room to argue. They didn't actually develop or evolve, they just are. The Precursors are eternal constants, always having existed in their current unchangeable state, which means their biological forms, including the Flood and Endless, are avatars they use to enact their will on the galaxy in specific ways. The Logic Plague is then a Precursor grafting its mind onto the mind of the afflicted, giving the Precursor direct control over that being's perceptions and decision making, allowing the Precursors to make it further the Precursors' goals, while still thinking that it has full free will to make its own decisions.
As in the Endless from Halo Infinite? I've seen so much speculation about a possible connection, but that's pretty clear. Or is that just 343 being idiots again? Which part of that is a direct quote?
@@kingofhearts3185 The TLDR is that most of the lore on the Precursors is given in little clues throughout various sources, mostly the Forerunner Saga, and very little is directly stated, rather the evidence is spread out for the reader to figure out, like a mystery novel that allows the reader to figure out the culprit about the same time the investigator does.
We know the Halos kill all neurological biomass from the Forerunner Saga, and we can clearly see that the Endless are neurological entities via the Harbinger in Halo Infinite, yet they were found alive after the Halo Array fired. In the whole of the lore, the only way we've seen anything survive the Halo Array is by not being there when it's fired, such as being outside of the flow of time in temporal stasis.
The Forerunners didn't have records of the Endless, which means they were either something very new, or something ancient that the Forerunners had tried to erase from history, and given the complexity of temporal stasis, the Endless being new enough to have not been previously found by the Forerunners is unlikely to the point of virtual impossibility. The only race the Forerunners tried to erase from history, leaving behind only a mythological version of them, was the Precursors.
Also, there's the question of what sort of temporal stasis releases the occupants after a super-weapon erases neurological life from the region? Technology is typically unaffected by the Halo Array, but we do know that it causes Neural Physical constructs to disintegrate, and again from the Forerunner Saga, we know that Precursor-made temporal stasis chambers when destroyed by a Halo releases the occupant after the destructive energies have passed, because that's what happened when the Forerunners fired a Halo on the planet the Primordial was on.
All of this strongly points to a strong connection between the Endless and the Precursors, as does the Forerunner Ancilla in Halo Infinite having determined that they believe the Endless are something more terrifying than the Flood.
It's revealed in the Forerunner Saga that when the Forerunners rebelled, the Precursors put some of their biological avatars into temporal stasis at the same time they turned others into the Flood dust, so everything points towards the Endless being those Precursor avatars, who were released by the Halo Array, only to be immediately found by the Forerunner Ancilla, and placed into Forerunner-made stasis, until they were eventually released by the Banished, all a part of the Precursors' grand design.
As such, I feel extremely confident that I am correct that the Endless are the Precursors' avatars that were placed in temporal stasis at the same time they turned others into the Flood dust.
The precursor are the fabric of reality
They can’t be killed
Even if not a single flood supercell or any other form they have exist anymore they will still be
Not want to sound like a rude fanboy, but the Hive-Mind as a whole, is just a very, VERY atomic tendril of the true form of the Tyranids, heck, if you read enough, the Hive-Mind in the Skein, you know where we have:
-Conceptual and Metaphysical tides
-infinite planes of existence, with infinite possibilities, planes of existence and timelines
-a Space so big that the material multiverse, which I will remind you, has Mathematical universes with Mathematical and Geometrical principles, vectors and raw, digital Mathematical data, is only the SURFACE of it
The Hive-Mind in the Skein, that extends its tendrils around all of the Skein, is just a SMALL, projection of the Shadow in the Warp, the Great Dragon, in the Warp itself, the same plane of existence that:
-is beyond Mathematics and Physics, which in 40k are so advanced, that not even the scientists who theorized the multiverse, gravity, dark matter and geometrical concepts, would rather taking the hardest tests of the world than actually solving how the Imperium Mathematics and Physics work.
-The same Warp that itself is beyond the entire concept of Philosophy, Dimensions and Concepts
-a Plane of Existence that has infinite layers that are trascendental and dimensionless
«The Hive-mind's true form/soul is described as 'The Great Dragon' and it's form coils around the stacked planes of of Existence or 'Panes of Glass'. Here it's true form is described as even more fundamental then it's depiction on the Skein which is the essence of it's Fate and 'higher dimensions' while at first seemingly referring too merely the 'Infinite' dimensions of physical reality, however as we have already established, the Skein is separate from the material plane and transcendent over it. Furthermore, I believe it's also referring more to how it's soul within the Warp is the true reality of it's soul as opposed to it's existence within the Skein that is merely a psychic abstraction. I also believe the true state of the Hive Mind or 'The Great Dragon' is implied to be a fully grown 'Voidspawn' or the adult form of the Void Grubs/Voidspawn that Belianna views within the Panes of Glass when attempting to view the Skein as a Outergod/Lovecraft type reference (more on this in Age of Sigmar section)
"Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon's true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, and the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna saw was the reality of its soul.
It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet's arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreaded dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.
Against this vista flickered the souls of Eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole." -Forges of Mars omnibus»
I will leave you this link that explores the lore, more so the Cosmology:
all-fiction-battles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Sky_Stalyn_Teta/Warhammer_Universe_Cosmology
What we see of the Tyranids, are just very tiny, lovecraftian aspectos of the Eldritch Beast that is in the Warp.
Keep in mind one nasty little detail that would be The Flood’s ace in the hole:
*_They would have Slipspace travel, in a setting where almost every other faction has to make do with infinitely more dangerous and unreliable Warp Travel._*
Once a Gravemind is formed, the flood would have access to ALL of the memories of the Forerunners they consumed AND the knowledge of the Precursors they once were. It would be child’s play for The Flood to modify ANY space-worthy craft to use Slipspace and scatter across the entire galaxy faster and more precisely than anyone could keep track of. By the time everyone realizes what’s going on, The Flood would have already entrenched itself across every corner of the galaxy. And the WORST PART? NO planet under attack from the flood could be considered “expendable” or “low priority”, as any worlds conquered by The Flood would just become KeyMinds that would toss more flood across all of the galaxy (The best way I could describe a Keymind in 40K terms would be Tyranids tried making their own Daemon World equivalents that acted as nodes for their hive mind to operate like mini-astronomicans).
The flood are also such master strategist that the forunner AI that was controlling trillions of sentinels in perfect union compared itself to the Gravemind and said it felt like a wooden boat in comparison to the Graveminds intelligence. Check the Forrunner trilogy books for reference
Then you add in star roads, halos and all the other fun stuff that they would have at their disposal. The 40k universe wouldn't know what to do.
creepy thing about the flood is even if you are dead it will still assimilate you and bring you back
The more the Flood evolves and grows, the more you realize that endgame flood is basically just the Vex from Destiny. They're damn near invincible, can bend the laws of space and time on whim, and will most likely be capable of invading other universes and timelines. The tyranids, however, are just hungrier, larger, more adaptive bugs from Starship troopers.
So wtf are The Vex? Just super god robots?
@@l0sts0ul89 Basically. They were created by two 'gods', which you could technically call the masters and creators of all universes, The Gardener and The Winnower, by those said beings trying to play a 'flower game', to see if there's any other ending for a species than for one to reach the total apex and dominate everything, or death. The Vex always did the former, and they never really died between 'games' (universes), and instead became so powerful that they bled into the 'garden' where these two beings 'played'. Currently, our game is going on in Destiny, but instead of taking the hands off, both the Winnower (Darkness) and The Gardener (Light) are taking active roles in it, and thus the Vex were capable of invading this new universe. So basically, they're all that's left, an echo of sorts, of a species/creature so powerful that it was capable of literally 'stitching' itself into the fabric of reality. They also time travel.
@@cadendains8106 soooo- how exactly are they gonna loose on the end? I mean they have to eventually right? I heard the Vex you fight in the games are like rejected ones.
@@l0sts0ul89 So, the Vex time travel and win so often because they're utilizing incredible amounts of computing to predict everything town to attoseconds. However, they can not compute nor predict powers such as the Dark, the Light, or this weird in between thing (hard to explain), and so this gives them a huge, glaring weakness to what's called Paracasaul threats, which you, a Guardian, basically a demigod that can be almost infinitely revived and powered by the Light, are. Also, you're not fighting rejects, what we're fighting are builders who are shooting us with the equivalent of a Vex communication device. We've only seen one 'combat' form, and it's the weakest one made to guard things, not even an attacker. They're called Wyverns and BOY are they tough to kill and annoying. They also have these things called Vex Minds which are basically an improved super computer form that has an express purpose to calculate. Like, there was one Vex Mind that was given the sole purpose of repurposing a planet as efficiently as possible.
@@cadendains8106
So basically they're like a super virus and we're the anti bodies who barely manage to keep them off Bay)
If it doesn't exist yet I want someone to make a mod or just a full game that's cross between Halo and Warhammer. Halmmer 334 would be the name or something along those lines
There are Warhammer 30k/40k and halo mods for Arma 3
At the end of the day, the Tyranids are extremely complex eusocial creatures with extremely maleable phenotypes and genotypes and the ability to assimilate characteristics from other races.
The Flood aren't creatures in any traditional sense. They're a cosmic punishment. Flood Super Cells are the definition of malleable; they can take whatever form is needed ad hoc. They process biomass almost instantly. Not only do flood assimilate species, they assimilate minds.
Yeah, the Flood would dominate 40k, but that misses the point. The Floods very purpose is for them to be an unbeatable inevitability. The Tyranids meanwhile, are part of a menagerie of aliens that contribute to the constant conflict in their setting, and you cant have conflict if everythings dead. The Flood is more of an apocolypse than an alien organism.
That’s a very concise response. A lot of it can be explained by the different genre’s. 40k is grimdark, HALO bounces between soft and hard sci-fi
"The flood is a cosmic punishment." Ima steal that one.
I’m man enough to admit when I’m wrong. I’m a 40k fanboy, always will be, but I can still look at the Flood and say “yep, that shit’s fucking scary.”
The Flood is basically if you took the terrifying adaptability and hive mind of the Tyranids and made it so they were always a Nurgle entity with all the corrupting power and insidious ulterior motives that comes with. Take two of the more powerful and prominent factions of 40k and retcon them to have always been the same galactic threat. That’s the Flood.
Well said, thank you
That's actually a really cool thought
Im not just "fanboy". Im wh40k fan already 20 years. And im say that no, Flood will not dominate above Tiranids.
@@ТарасМакаренко-ф3ш the flood does dominate the nids tho. In every conceivable way.
@@manofculture4938 no. Proof?
Tyranids adapt to your advantages. The flood just steal those advantages outright.
The flood would absolutely dominate the nids, especially given all the deep lore from the books and not just the games.
From what I understand the nids fight, get pushed back, adapt, try again, over and over until the goal is achieved. They need to time to consume, gestate, and repurpose biomass for their use. Not very much time, but time nonetheless.
The flood only need seconds to infect and completely take over a life form, making it immediately useful to them and turning the strengths of the enemy into the strengths of the flood.
The only possible way the nids could counter this is by becoming uninfectable. But the practicality of that is very dubious. anything that has a central nervous system can be infected, and since the nids have creatures literally known as synapse creatures, I don’t think it’s possible to completely remove their nervous system. That is what connects them to the hive mind, it’s the ONE thing they can’t go without without also losing all the benefits the hive mind gives them. Plus, the biomass would still be useful to the flood regardless, even if it can’t be infected in the traditional sense.
And that’s not even getting into the way the flood can infect space time like chaos and even AI, meaning even the necrons aren’t safe.
The only conflicts the nids are winning in this matchup is local engagements vs relatively small amounts of flood. Basically if they show up with an overwhelming advantage to begin with, they can pull a victory. But if the forces are anywhere near evenly matched, the flood have the clear advantage
The fact is though. The flood are never at the disadvantage. They have other galaxies they can feed from. Even if they need to go dormant they lose none of their abilities or memories. This was a really well put comment. Thank you :)
Bullshit, tyranids can create several nerve systems for every organism, don't forget that the hive mind is obsessed with symbionts and multiple creatures in one body. And if one of them is infected, the others will destroy it. For example: neurogaunts - even if you shoot off his head, the body will still continue to fight, because neuroparasites in the spinal cord can take control. In addition, some Tyranid fleets are able to create toxins that even many Nurgle servants cannot withstand, and then eat bodies infected with this toxin. I'm not talking about rippers, parasites of Mortex, tyranid psykers, what will flood do with psykers for example? It can shoot them, obviously, but not infect them, they literally create shields out of nothing, levitate and fire beams of energy in all directions. They gonna eat flood faster than it gonna infect them.
Not to mention if flood have the biomass of an entire galaxy it basically becomes a god. The power of neural physics and star roads. They could think apart civilisations. (Although they wouldn't do that, they prefer not to kill where they could instead consume. They want to savour experience so blinking out civilisations wouldn't be in their best interests but the fact they could do it is terrifying enough) Point is, the flood cannot lose. Even if pushed back they will then just wait.
"Resignation is my virtue; like water I ebb, and flow. Defeat is simply the addition of time to a sentence I never deserved... but you imposed."
One other thing about the Flood. Large scale infection takes place over a fraction of the time. After the events of Halo 3, The UNSC deduced that if it weren't for Voi's outbreak being glassed, The Flood would have overtaken Earth in mere hours. Meanwhile the numbers I have seen for Tyranids put planetary assimilation at days or weeks.
We can confirm the Flood numbers with the other two outbreaks we've seen. The feral stage infection in CE has basically completely taken control of the ring in under a day. And the infection on High Charity has overtaken the Covenant holy city in hours. To the point that even the hierarchs aren't safe.
The flood are only able to steal those advantages if they're able to infect in the first place. If the Tyranids find a way to prevent the infection, Flood are done. Anything that has the same kind of central nervous system as the species in the Halo universe are able to be infected. That doesn't mean a form of central nervous system that works completely differently couldn't evolve, or that a way to prevent the infection from reaching the central nervous system couldn't evolve.
"Flood sends 1 infected Frigate to Terra to start a small infection"
"Flood Eats everyone on the planet over time and turns them into Soldiers"
"Flood swarms the imperial Palace With billions of combat forms, infection forms and any other forms"
"Consumes the God emperor"
"Profit?"
Really even if they hold off the combat forms it'll only take so long until the air is flood cancer and the floor is flood, and the water, and the food... honestly you might as well bail on Terra while you still can.
That’s assuming the god emperor doesn’t do something
You seem to be forgetting that there are 10,000 gods, hundreds of thousands of super-humans - millions, and hundreds of millions armed - billions of armed men. Along with Emperor knows how many ships and gun platforms, Mars’ defenses, Titan, and the Solar mine fields and the other gun platforms.
While I love me some worms- 40k is fucking busted sometimes.
@@SnakeChkn oh its absolutely busted, but if an infection begins at the lower levels and have time to grow before they really consider It a major treath then the air food and water becomes infected, at wich point It wont matter how many Guns they have as they'll be using Said guns against the imperium, most normal soldiers wont have countermeasures against airborn infection, and absolutely the Space marines and custodes and all the rest will anihilate billions of infection forms they cant fight forever, now yes they could bomb the fuck out of the planet, but would they risk damaging the emperor of mankind? Cause i dont think they can move him. Theyd try to focus on protecting him regardless of the Manpower lost, and every fallen soldier becomes a flood host, theyd put up one hell of a fight to be sure but the flood Will adapt and start using their weapons and tech against them, all their knowledge,
So Ultimately i think terra would fall.
@@nathanieljohnson5430 This doesn't work because of the Emperors will. The Emperor can basically do anything just like Chief does. Only when the Emperor does something it typically is huge. The Emperor, for example, held off an essentially endless horde of Daemons, lesser, and greater all during the Siege of Terra.
If we were to compare what civilization tier the flood would be in Warhammer, it'd be War in Heavens era powerhouse tier assuming it gets to keymind stage.
Make sense the precursors were essentially the old ones on crack
We have no way to scale the flood to war in heaven warhammer. The flood threatened several galaxy while war in heaven civs were threatening the entire 40k universe. It wasn’t just a galaxy going down in that war.
Highly doubt tbh. War in Heaven era Warhammer was fucking insane beyond belief. I don't think any sci-fi universe tops WiH in terms of power levels. IIRC the entire fucking universe was a battleground between Necrons and the Old Ones & company iirc.
@@lashedandscorned There are plenty that outscale it, marvel and dc and I’m sure there is an anime somewhere that does, but yes war in heaven warhammer is insane.
While we have no means to fully scale that properly, I think you're probably right lol. The flood get insanely God tier when they get all worked up and on the warpath
The lore on the Precursors and Flood comes mostly from the Forerunner Saga, but much of it isn't directly stated, it's presented in the form of clues, pieces of information scattered throughout the trilogy for the dedicated reader to piece together, because the author trusts the reader to be intelligent enough to make the connections. The subtlety of some of the clues makes it almost mandatory to read the series a second time, because there's more you'll catch due to context that you have from later books.
The Precursors are eternal constants, fully existing outside of the confines of space and time, giving them the full, omniscient view of everything that is, was, or may be. They used biological avatars to give the mortal races examples of how they're supposed to conduct themselves. Thus the Precursors' avatars lived many existences, some simple and tied to their worlds, others spanning the galaxy, but all growing, advancing, and eventually dying out, before being replaced by the next ones.
The Precursors created a race to give the Mantle of Responsibility to, and put them on the planet, Ghibalb, and that race was humanity. At some point, some of them left for the far side of the galaxy and lost contact with those who stayed behind, most likely when those who stayed behind accidentally destroyed their homeworld in a stellar engineering accident, which would have resulted in the loss of records. So the Humans on the far side of the galaxy continued as they were, but the others, now without their homeworld created a new capital, Maethrillian, and spent the next more than ten-million years genetically engineering themselves, incorporating favorable traits from other species they found into their own genetics in an attempt to turn themselves into the perfect species, turning themselves into the Forerunners we know.
The Forerunners thought they were destined to hold the Mantle, because it had been promised to the descendants of their ancestors, but they didn't remember that the Humans were also descendants of those same ancestors, so the Precursors hadn't changed their minds, rather they'd merely chose to go with the faction that was still what the Precursors had designed them to be.
The Forerunners were only slated for execution by the Precursors because the Forerunners had committed gross violations against the Mantle, by perpetually subjugating all of the other races, de-evolving them and stealing their technology and worlds whenever they reached anything close to the Forerunners level of power. (The Mantle is the rule that each race has the right to the opportunity to reach their full potential, not any sort of mandated authoritarian "peace"). Thus the Forerunners had to go so the other races could advance as they were designed to. But the Forerunners themselves hadn't reached their own potential yet, so they couldn't be eliminated yet. That's why the Flood held back for hundreds of years to give the Forerunners the time to reach their full potential, before the Flood used its full power to quickly crush the Forerunners.
On that note, when the Forerunners rebelled, they didn't understand that the "Precursors" they were attacking were merely avatars, and that the Forerunners had no ability to actually harm their creators. Yet even so, the Precursors didn't have their avatars defend themselves, and instead they passively allowed the Forerunners to exterminate them across both the Milky Way and Path Kethona, again allowing the Forerunners to prove that they were not worthy to hold the Mantle. But the Precursors chose to preserve some of their avatars for future use.
Some they turned into a fine, apparently inert dust that would eventually be found by humanity, who would unwittingly release it to become the Flood, serving as a test of humanity, allowing them to show their worth in how they handle being responsible for releasing a plague on the galaxy. Humanity passed this test by being self-sacrificial in their attempts to stop the Flood before it spread to the other races. As a reward, the Flood stopped targeting humanity, which created the false appearance of humanity's final "cure" working, which would later cause the Forerunners to preserve humanity, instead of eradicating them as the Forerunners would have otherwise done. The Flood attacked the rest of the galaxy, but holding back its assault to make the process take hundreds of years, giving the Forerunners enough time to relocate the other races to the Lesser Ark, and to develop the Halo Array, so that when the Flood finally makes the final push, forcing the Forerunners to activate the Halo Array, the Forerunners last stronghold on the Greater Ark would be destroyed, and the Flood would be cleared out of the majority of the galaxy, allowing the races from the Lesser Ark to grow, out from under the shadow of the Flood. The Precursors allowed the Flood to re-emerge on some Forerunner structures after the firing of the Halo Array to safeguard the technology from the mortal races who weren't ready for it, so they wouldn't use it to wipe out themselves or each other. That's the context of the Halo games, in which the Flood isn't fighting to win, it's fighting to deny assets to the mortal races.
Other avatars of the Precursors were put into temporal stasis, where they would be held until after the firing of the Halo Array, which dissolved the Neural-Physical constructs, releasing them after the destructive energies had passed. Thus the Forerunners' Ancilla found them, initially mortified at the prospect of the implications of something surviving the Halo Array, but then figuring out who this race was, and concluding that it was more dangerous than the Flood, an assertion that could only apply to the Precursors themselves. Thus the Forerunners' Ancilla put those avatars into Forerunner-made stasis, where they'd again wait until their eventual release by the Banished, at which point the first of these avatars released, the Harbinger, manipulated the Banished into decisions that would ultimately result in the Master Chief wiping out the majority of their top commanders, rebalancing the Banished' s conflict with Humanity, giving Humans the chance to rebuild and re-arm to withstand the power of the Banished.
Everything the Precursors and their avatars have done is for the ultimate goal of having the mortal races achieve their full potential. The Precursors' tactics change with changing circumstances, but the goal is always the same.
man I wish we had like... A version of that one creepy ending in AOT that spoiled things except its this info that's portrayed. Ever since I learned about the new lore, that ending just kept coming to my head. If I could draw I would probably try to create it.
So the flood are good guys
@@brightestlight9462 The Flood does horrific things, but the end purpose of its actions is the mortal races realizing their full potential. So rather than painting the Flood as "good guys" or even "antiheros", I think it's more akin to a tabletop roleplaying game, where the Precursors are the game master, the mortal races are the player-characters, and the Flood are the monsters the game master uses to shape the course of the story, turning the player-characters into heroes.
@@lennardchurch8483 damn i wish the halo games had this instead of it being exclusive to reading the books, because its really interesting
Remember: The reason that the Tyranids avoid Necrons in just because they don't gain any biomass from killing them
Well that and the stellar powered super weapons most established dynasties carry in their back pockets for just such an occasion.
Except they can and do crush tomb worlds when they're in the way, and early worlds consumed by the hive fleet are scraped to the core of minerals and atmosphere too.
The tyranids generally avoid tomb worlds because there's SO MUCH life in our galaxy that they have, in Inquisitor Kymryptmann's words 'become picky eaters'.
@locarno24 from my readings on the silent king that is an exception not the rule. The amount of biomass it takes to consume a tomb world results in a net negative for the hive fleet. Hence why they avoid necrons. They are only about gains.
Necrons got that intergalactic blick
Flood on the other hand would see a big fat technological pizza and say "Yum" what can I learn from this?
Necrons would just be another snack to the flood, imagine if the flood got their hands on Ctan gods (shards) that would be ridiculous.
The Flood would basically be the anti-chaos in 40k
So... weaker Tyranids?
Sounds about right XD
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled tyranids are bugs. Flood are cordeceps
@@lv1543 Cordyceps has to evolve an entirely new strain for every species of bug it infects, and a great many species of bugs actually EAT the spores they are immune to as an easy source of sustenance. There are even some species of wasps that are passive carriers and inject it alongside their eggs as a cheap easy way to weaken the targets immune system...
This is a great analogy, just not for the reasons you seem to think. Lol
@@lv1543not even cordyceps. Literally just H.P Lovecraft AIDs
@@IntrusiveThoughts838 thats... literally the Tyranids - you forgetting the extractions they can do to strip a planet of EVERY usable material leaving only bedrock? They literally create organic material from non-organic material when theres no available organics to consume - literally draining planets into husks, Flood need to eat organics to survive - Tyranids prefer to eat organics.
its why they hate Necrons and Chaos - they just poof from reality and cant be harvested
Something often left out of the debate is the psychic powers of the tyronids and the shadow they cast which can cut of connections like warp entities or hive minds.
Glad you brought up the shadow in the warp.
Even though I strongly believe the flood could overpower the Shadow in the Warp. It is still important to talk about it, since a weaker flood form might not be able to break through that shadow
@Macro40k the flood are definitely allot more resilient on a cellular level but the tyronids are more refined when it comes to thier gene craft and adaptability. Flood will likely be able to overun and consume a planet quicker than the tyronids but the tyronids will probably be able to make more use out of what they consume if that makes any sense.
@Macro40k I agree the higher tier of Flood should be able to break through.
@@MacroLore The Flood's abilities aren't "Psychic" in the sense that 40k uses the word, because the Flood's abilities aren't Warp-based. The Tyranids' Shadows in the Warp is their massive psychic presence drowning out other psychic sources, like radio interference. But the Flood's using an entire different system, so that interference won't affect them in any way.
@@TheLastRaven when the tyranids fought the death guard, the shadow in the warp did not nullify their defensive resillience which is dependant on the warp to function. The tyranids were unable to use nurgle tainted biomass from a planet that they defeated the death guard on. They had to destroy a hive ship before it could spread nurgles rot to the other fleet. In 40ks own words “better to lose a toe than the whole limb” Which means that the tyranids would be unable to recover flood biomass. Even if disolved in acid. The flood operate on neural physics which is way better than the warp, no downsides like your brain exploding from using it. The flood would be able to withstand or ignore the shadow in the warp. As they consume more biomass, the flood will form giant planet sized keyminds which will be able to outmaneuver any forunner class AI. The tyranid hivemind would find its tactics and strategy outclassed. The tyranids lose on every front. The only thing they stand a chance on is if they are able to destroy the flood before it escapes a planet.
@4:00 "neural physics, mind science" Ah yes. Sci-fi jargon for space magic.
Necrons are actually a match to the flood they are not biologically, and do not rely on AI. They also took on, and killed gods. They basically went to sleep for much the same reason the precursors let themselves be defeated, boredom.
Logic Plague would be the Floods main way of dealing with Necrons, however it would probably needa Gravemind and have prolonged contact with a Tomb World.
@@BrandonsUsername logic plague seems kinda hit and miss
The War in Heaven Necrons maybe, but modern Necrons getting stomped of the flood have any kind of momentum behind them.
@@BrandonsUsername it would probably be more effective on the Severed Worlds
The flood would still be able to take over the Necrons, it would take a lot longer than biological life, but it wouldn't be a net loss for them and it's not like the Necrons can adapt to it. All of a sudden, the flood have Necrons on their side and bam, even more dangerous.
Something to note about the Tyranid's is that they have attacked the milky way galaxy from completely different points of contact, implying that the entire universe is completely surrounded by the Tyrranid hive fleet. There is also a Warhammer 40K story about a psyker who peers into the Tyranid hive mind to save I think a commissar and sees a mass of tendrils that envelopes entire planets and spans across several galaxy's. While that could be a illusion, but for all we know the Tyranids might have conquered the entire UNIVERSE(literal) of 40K with the Milky Way Galaxy being its last victim. I'm not here to argue but I do want to point out that the story of Warhammer is still being built, so maybe someday the nids might surpass the Flood when more lore is developed, interesting video.
I wouldn't be surprised if in the end both the Precursors and the Nids turn out to be the same thing. I also wouldn't be surprised if 40k does what HALO did and go "oh shit, this big organic plothole. Let's fill it by saying they're actually these guys" by making the Tyranids the wrath of the Old Ones
@@MacroLore I plead the fifth and say “Dude, same.”.
A god of plagues is having a hard time infecting those fuckers and you go "um actually"
And I’ll do it again
Yooo the flood can *INFECT* reality itself, it's not even a competition, I haven't watched this vid but I really hope you talk about star roads.
Uh, problem, in 40k reality already has an infection and it's called Nurgle.
Please do a part 2 I think this is very interesting
I just want to let this thing that came in my mind sink in here...
What if, a Custodes get infected by a Spore.
Thats it, one single custodes, patrolling the galaxy, gets taken by surprise by a combat form, kill it and gets infected by a spore on a minor injury on his body.
Well, a single flood soldier can oneshoot a Spartan II through his energy shield and send his 500kg ass flying dozens of meters away, and it was a normal infected soldier.
Now, a custodes... yeah
He'd probably notice the corruption quick enough to jump into a fusion reactor. If not himself, the others would.
Finally someone mentions what I think is the obvious here which is the precursors ALLOWED the forerunners to “wipe them out”. All of the lore surrounding the precursors paints them to be these godlike nigh-omniscient beings that could do pretty much anything and yet we’re to believe that the forerunners just surprised them real good. I don’t buy it. Throughout the forerunner trilogy anytime the primordial or grave mind is “on screen” so to speak, he is constantly referencing that the precursors have essentially planned out the galaxy and, although being pissed about what the forerunners did, never mentions that their actions in anyway hinder or set back their plans as if it was anticipated and worked into the calculus. He even specifically mentions that Humanity will be tested next for the mantle and nothing has changed that. The only thing they are referenced as specifically not knowing is if humanity will prevail or not, clearly to raise the stakes when the eventual “test” does come, if we even get that in a game or book or whatever. And the way he described this ignorance is by saying: “It has not yet been decided”. Yeah the Precursors let the Forerunners win, no doubt in my mind.
Considering that the flood also did something similar against the forerunners as well. They retreated from human controlled space for thousands of years to get the forerunners a semblance of hope that there was a cure just to get them to waste time and resources before coming back and wiping them out. Also in lore human controlled space was on the edge of the galaxy so who knows if they hadn't gone to a different galaxy in the meantime, how plausible this is idk, but it's an interesting theory.
I was literally saying just the other day that the Flood would solo 40k.
And that's being a fan of both, not even The Warp would be safe.
As a fan of both. It’s safe to say the flood contain all aspects of chaos and could easily replace it
@@MacroLore neural psychics is the real end game. Lol
Not to be a dick but i dont think they could solo 40k
@@thesnakeanimator5673 yeah necrons alone would slap em
I disagree. The Hivemind still resides within a realm of reason, he is, after all, a philosopher who has seen time immemorial and has seen empires rise and fall since the dawn of time (so he says). To venture into the Warp and face the Chaos Gods would require complete and total insanity.
Which is why the only individuals to survive are people who have gone insane, or Orks who are so simple minded that they can absolutely reside without issue.
And each one uniquely separate.
Not to mention that supernatural beings cannot be infected by material realm parasites...
Nurgle would probably see the Flood as the ultimate creation of plague itself. I think the only affront he would find is that it detracts from the very idea of the gift of mortality being slow and sweet.
This video gave me some motivation to get in 40K lore. Ive been procrastinating but honestly the more games I play the more lores I want to delve into and compare. Thxs for the video.
Going into a new universe with an open mindset is key. Each different threat has a different place in the structure of the setting. Some setting have incredible scale like 40k. Halo is a lot less so most of the time
@@MacroLore It doesn't help that Halo game lot and Halo book lore have some inconsistentencies if not retcons. It's kind of annoying but I'm still trying to finish the books and get caught up with the games. WH is cool but it's got sooooo much going on I've never put much time into because of that. But it don't hurt to try and you're right open mindset is key.
Gravemind kills a funny chaos space marine wearing faces on his armor
Then the gravemind becomes a funny chaos space marine wearing faces on his armor
What would the stretched tortured 'face' of Gravemind even look like? I think it'd basically just be teeth and gums gnashing incessantly, lol
Realistically, though, Lucius' curse probably wouldn't affect the Gravemind or any flood form. The Gravemind as an intelligent being is a shared psyche. Every Gravemind being the same intelligence inherited over every iteration. The GM probably would only feel pride after assimilating all life into the flood. Killing a screaming warp cockroach would be just another combat form in its 'eyes'. Not to mention is space-time fuckery powers. Really funny thought tho. Lucius screaming at the GM's mass only to get Skarbranded as a huge flesh whip swats him across the galaxy for him to hit something and become blood, only for every floodform on the galaxy to have a seizure 😂
@@LordranRavin worked on a necron
@Blundabus1337 What class of necron are we talking? A standard rank and file necron warrior or an immortal
Fimger slipped while typing my response lol
Carrying on... Or was a Lord class. There's varying degrees of senses and the ability to feel pride. I'm not super familiar with all the Lucius lore. I am aware that Necrons has varying degrees of sentience. While a Lord has pretty much the same autonomy as a human, it has the ability to feel pride at defeating a foe, a warrior and an immortal are cogs in a machine, but they do have vary faint emotions. In the Twic- dead King even flayed ones have some personality however buried under flesh eating insanity. The Gravemind isn't exactly an individual. It's an intelligent gestalt consciousness formed through the mutation of primordial remnants of the Precursor civilization, which mastered neural physics a field of mind science on the border of godlike. The Gravemind being the sum of all knowledge the flood has ever absorbed inherited by the newest interation of the flood nexus. Technically, the flood is a hivemind colony. Like the Tyranids, the flood have a feral state for when they are 'disconnected' from the hivemind from the lack of a Grave/Key mind being the early stages of flood outbreak. So if Lucius is killed by the gravemind it is possible that it can simply sacrifice a combat form or pure form as it'd be very unlikely for the Gravemind itself to be the one to splat the ever present creep but a swarm of combat, infection and pure forms
@@LordranRavin im not reading your walls of text until your learn paragraphing.
Sidenote imagine if they gave Kryptman ONE halo ring 😅
"By order of Inquisitor Krytman we are to enforce exterminatus."- some officer
"Which planet are we targeting my lord?"- some grunt
"Yes."-Inquisitor Krytman entering the room
IMO, Depends on what stage the Flood are at. If we give the Flood stuff like the Star Roads? Immediate flood win, no question. However, in a slugfest, tyranids have the advantage thanks to their sheer adaptability, notable example being overcoming the plagues of Nurgle and the Death Guard. Not only that, but their psionic powers and individual bioforms like the Doom of Malan'tai could very much turn the playing field in their favor.
Not big on 40K lore - but HALO is my thing - it doesn't matter what you throw against the flood, they will just infect it - then you only managed to strengthen them, plus they have now gained all the memories and knowledge of the infected host. That is the entire point of the Halo arrays - the only way to beat the flood was to starve them to death by wiping out all life - and that still didn't work.
@@rianmacdonald9454 The same thing goes for the tyranids, except they can adapt to a much greater degree than the flood. Flood require pure forms and hives to adapt (Tanks changing into stalker forms), whereas even a Tyranid ripper can change into a Mawloc or Swarmlord if instructed by the Mind.
Accurate. As soon as the Flood creates a Gravemind, the entirety of the 40K universe is doomed. If they’re wiped out before then, 40K is saved.
They will wait, stalk, and observe their prey before sending out their infectors to take over bodies. The take the dead and living alike. Infectors are intelligent enough to hide and stay out of sight until it is time to strike.
It really doesn't matter what stage the flood are in all it takes is for one tyranid to get infected after that the tyranids are beyond fucked
Your flood chaos vids sounds dope
Thank you! And thank you for making it that far into the video :)
Yeah I'd love to see that video too!
The nids *JUST* get biomass
The Flood get biomass AND knowledge
check the nids lore again LOL
False- tyrannids can consume the minds of victims, they can also learn things via genestealers. And other methods.
Fuckin clown has never heard of lictors before..
Literally fake news and cope
Bro go read more nid lore
How come I’m only JUST finding your channel
I'm fairly new to this. Thank you for the compliment :)
While I agree that the flood would be the tyranids this felt much more like a old one's versus the tyranids videos. I would like to see your opinion on how the tyranids deal with the flood on all stages of there developments and how the flood would deal with the tyranids in its in all stages of there development. Naturally the flood of their zenith with wipe the floor with pretty much most things getting to that point would be the hard part.
This whole debate is just Goku vs Super man all over again.
Vegeta wins because anger
Tyranids v Flood v Necromorphs v [insert other biomass absorbing force]
No matter who wins, everyone else loses.
I was going to post an informative reply about Necrons and the forces of chaos, and then I realized the premise of the video was SPECIFICALLY Tyranids vs The Flood, and decided to not. I have never seen a Tyranid vs The Flood matchup video, only "The Flood vs (Enter Universe)" so thats where my missconception was from. Whoops! Great video anyways :D
Halo Flood
Bungi: hivemind with lots of 404 errors in it’s memory but is basic enough to be sane.
343 corrupted creatures from dust, but actually not corrupted just literally spiteful beings that wanted revenge meanwhile the uncorrupted ones were harvested and studied (we can assume we had friendly flood but were wiped out due to obvious advantages of the hostile flood).
However the flood may have an advantage in the halo series… this being a flood was put in a reverse stasis field set for an absurd amount of time and that means it has had a flood stream of the flood for that time giving the flood a peek into what may happen.
We also know the flood shed biomass as by the Didact who was held prisoner by them for a period of time.
We also have ‘oh people keep going missing so we keep sending forerunners there’ origin of the flood idea and then it became too great for them to contain it.
Edit
Also we have a forerunner, Flood/precursor, A.I alliance in halo.
I think you’re applying 3rd dimensional thinking to a 4th or 5th dimensional being
@@MacroLorenah, it really is just ‘the 343 writing is so bad that this is the best thing i can come up with’
Literally the flood letting the forerunners ‘win’ just so they can say ‘haha made you hurt yourself’
Especially after 3 books and that is the end goal? The literal laughing in the librarian’s face moment…
I mean compare the flood of halo 1-3 book wise vs the flood that has been written by 343…
It just feels like it is missing so much that made it intimidating and a threat…
The gravemind was the flood in a mental form. Go around threats, find small details and so on.
Now they did the whole Martyr thing that it suffers every pain that the flood forms suffer… halo 2 changed a lot of stuff for better or worse. Read halo reach, the flood, and then Contact harvest.
You can kinda tell they did a heavy transplant of the elites negative traits into the brutes…
A few examples of rough elites still are around at times but not very often. Even when they are a bit dirty it is from someone else like the prophet that glassed a volcano
I'm dying at the thought of Mendicant Bias having to listen to Drake explain the true history of the universe for 30 years straight 😂😂
You could say mendicant was all a part of “gods plan”
The flood soloed a species that flipped a damn galaxy for the sole reason of seeing wheter they can. And I havent seen the 40k factions instigating a multi galactic extinction event to defeat their enemies like those did
That species had the weakness of not glassing planets at the first sign something *might* be wrong. They waited until it grew big enough that the only solution was to purge the whole galaxy.
Necrons broke gods to pieces, have the capacity to end entire timelines or galaxies if some of their more heavy tech is missused. And won against 40k's equivalent of forerunners, who designed entire legendary armies of super species to take them down, and the necrons won anyway. Because haha use god as double AA battery go BRRRRR.
@@KelebMoonDancer A necron Google search be like ,,Help, my Toaster tries to eat my soul and speaks in Cthulu."
Necrons would easily remove them from existance if they felt like it and as always chaos has the possibility to corrupt them, specifically nurgle
Necrons are a late game objective. If you’re the flood you need to secure cannon fodder first. The necron provide the most information but will be the hardest to fivbt
I do feel like the infestation from Warframe given its nanite nature, being able to adapt through different strains and overall access to the void would consume both.
At full strength, the Flood has the ability to literally alter the laws of physics with their mind, it's an ability called "neural physics" that connects their consciousness to the underlying fabric of the universe as a whole. One time, in order to cripple the movement of it's enemies, the Flood changed the way hyperspace works, causing everyone's slipspace drives to malfunction. They then used their minds to DELETE THE SPACE IN BETWEEN TWO PLANETS to allow the Flood's fleet to easily move between places, not by using slipspace, but by literally making parts of the universe smaller so it would be easier to cross.
@@devoutrelic1228THE F*CK?, that's broken.... no... BEYOND BROKEN
@@devoutrelic1228here I was thinking the forerunners were God like
The flood basically becomes a god
@@calebkaminski6951 the flood doesn't become a god, it is the distorted remains of multiple gods
I’m not so sure about that, the warframe infenstation doesn’t seem as powerful
The precursers didnt think stuf into being literaly, its just theyr tecnology that responded to mental comands .
Funny enough ive hear arguments that the gravemind wouldn't be able to figure out alot of the technology because no one knows how to use it. Like the gravemind couldnt figure out alot of imperiums tech especially after it regains it's memories from the forerunner days.
Keep in mind that it doesn’t need to understand the technology. Just how to use it, the neural physics will do the rest
(Eats one Tech Priest Dominus)
@@MacroLoresound like ork
the gravemind actually was able to get enough power out of high charity to send it through slipspace to the ark even though the forerunner keyship powering the entire thing was gone, which shouldn't have been possible, I'm sure given a little bit of time it could figure out the imperium tech.
If i remember correctly as soon a gravemind its formed, it gains acces to all of the past memories of all the graveminds
Meaning that no mater if a gravemand its formed hundreds of millions of years after the halo rings fired, as soon as the gravemind its complete it will gain all the previous memories and knowlege of the flood
Even if thats not the case, im sure that the knowledge of a planet its enough for the gravemind to understeand how to use a weapon, vehicule or whatever it wants to use
YOO I LOVE THE MECHANICUS MUSIC PLAYING, I LOVE THAT SOUNDTRACK SO MUCH-
I like both Halo and Warhammer 40k and even I know the Precursor/Primordials are on a whole different level
When I told my friend who is a big 40k fan about Precursors, I told him that Precursors are kinda like the Old Ones of 40k only much more powerful.
I’m gonna contest that claim. Precursors are horrific- but definitely only on par with The Old Ones
@@SnakeChkn The Old Ones lost a war against a race with similar feats as the forerunners.
Although the precursors lost the war too but it was because they did not defend themselves, however the flood that was about to reach precursor levels clap the forerunners cheeks so hard that they were forced to commit mass suicide, taking all the life in the galaxy with them.
Space Marine Flood Form would be absolutely insane
Wouldn’t the tyranids just eat the biomass of the flood and adapt to their infections like how they did when they encountered Nurgle?
The tyranids would get infected by any flood biomass.
I think the question isn’t who’s peak is bigger but if the flood can grow large enough fast enough to deal with the ‘nids before being destroyed
The Skibidi toilets will solo both the Flood and tyramids
I will die on this hill, fight me
🚽
Truly a force to be reckoned with
No ones debating you
No one's debating you, it's hard to win an Argument against a smart person, but it's impossible to win an Argument against a stupid person.
Skibidi toilets can solo the xeelee universe
Biggest thing for me is its actual intelligence and ability to absorb memories and knowledge. This opens up so many doors. Particularly good pilot or driver is consumed and his experience is shared between all flood forms who need it. Or a VIP like a general or admiral gets absorbed along with all his knowledge of defenses and important coordinates or passwords.
Imagine a Flood Infected Astartes. You think it would be a nightmare? Imagine a Flood Infected Warlord Titan..
@@BrandonsUsername imagine the flood getting some ancient magos with intricate knowledge of multiple worlds
You earned a subscriber I always hated to see that people compare warhammer 40k to Star Wars and it gets me upset because I’m like what about halo there are more closely alike. Anyway I believe you are right with the flood because yes the nids adept very quickly but to me the flood only do that much quicker and the knowledge they gained goes to all flood. Have a good day.
To start, not a big Warhammer fan, I prefer Dead Space the most, titanfall second, and halo third with Warhammer being somewhere below that. That being said, the flood really hasn't shown the adaptability present in the Tyranids. The Tyranids are known to adapt their tactics on a day-to-day basis, taking the information learned from losses or victories with forms specified for learning new information down to gas mask filters, and they have adapted some extremely powerful abilities like regenerating and adapting to damage, bio-plasma, psychic abilities capable of actually blowing things up like invisible artillery.
While I don't know if this has ever run through anyone else's head, they should also be able to learn information by eating your flesh even just your hand. Now you might be thinking hold up, nothing like that has ever been stated for the Tyranids, and the closest thing to that is that they learn your genetics which they can use to modify themselves. It is that second statement that is why the first is likely true because while that first is canon to Warhammer, it isn't canon to the Tyranids but the space marines, yes that is right, a space marine can take a bite out of you and learn from you and the Tyranids who have eaten likely thousands of space marines would be able to take this ability and apply it to every Tyranid form so this should be the case, I don't know if this has been talked about or not in canon but yeah, there is the possibility.
I feel like it would come down to which one of the two could actually consume and assimilate the other.
@@deadman9335 Adaptability is very common thing for the flood too. After flood has enough biomass to have developed a gravemind, it can adapt to every situation. After few planets worth of biomass and keymind developed it has nothing it can't adapt to. In halo 3 it shows that flood pure forms can change or adapt to situation in hand very quickly trough mutation. There are no other showed forms but i would imagine that during forerunner-flood war era, there are billions of different flood forms, adapted to different situations like tyranids can. In forerunner-flood war, Didact said that the flood has adapted to basically every strategy forerunners have put against them.
@@TheAns51 Yes while the flood can and do adapt, it isn't nearly as fast and as often as a lot of creators make it sound because they have a habit of over hyping what the flood can do, don't get me wrong, they are strong and very capable but they have some simple weaknesses that they can't adapt to. While a gravemind can be formed from the population of a planet a key mind requires a large amount of biomass said to be about a galaxy and it couldn't adapt either to the same weaknesses, sure it can now make pure forms and advanced tactics with a gravemind but that is about it. Yes pure forms can easily change to and from 1 form to another form but only 3 options which are stalkers, tanks, and range all of which are not nearly able to keep up with a basic Tyranid swarm which could be made of a dozen different forms and even 2 of the same kind could be extremely varied to the point you wouldn't realize that they are the same type. There are actually more types of flood but they are all highly specialized for specific jobs like blight stalkers only appearing in blight zones.
The flood adapted to "forerunner" operations but they didn't adapt as well as the forerunners because the Forerunners were winning towards the very end until the Didact was imprisoned and the choice to fire the rings was made. How you might ask, well they took advantage of the floods weaknesses, so let's get started listing those shall we. The flood are dead, they rot, not fast but they still rot, and they reconsume themselves to save the biomass losing some every time and with it some information, normally this process wasn't that fast with the gravemind taking some where within 100,000 years to reach a near feral intelligence(it took like a day for it to become the gravemind we know) but the rings rapidly accelerate the time of everything with a nervous system until it turns to nothing in moments erasing the flood and much of its knowledge instantly. This rot also makes them really easy to destroy with fire, heat, plasma and even basic kinetic force from bullets can cause them to fall apart all of which are options that the tyranids possess. If you don't have a nervous system or it has been modified in some way, you are immune to flood infection, Spartan 1s, and 2s are immune, 3s are possibly immune and 4s are the only Spartan that can and on 1 occasion has been infected, engineers are completely immune due to not having a nervous system, the are immune Sharquoi although they had cybernetic enhancements by the forerunners which may or may not be why, the Mgalekgolo or hunters aren't immune but are because they can just disconnect the infected individuals from the colony much like how I just described how I think the Tyranids would do the same thing, and finally, plants are immune to infection. This isn't to say the flood can't absorb them into its mass, just that they can't be infected and used. The Forerunners took advantage of this in 2 big ways, the rings and the prometheans, robots that can't be infected, smart enough to strategize but not smart enough to fall for the logic plaque, their weapons leave nothing left to use for the flood, they can teleport, dash, see through walls, rebuild fallen prometheans, catch and throw back grenades, and more. They are quoted as wiping out graveminds with their Incineration Cannons, and shown breaching ship halls to wipe out the flood presence aboard. The flood met their match, and were losing against prometheans even at their peak. The Didact was right to use them however he was also insane and composing everyone he could and had to be stopped, with out him leading them, and not wanting to compose what remained, they fired the halo array.
Or Starcraft. I hate seeing it wither away with time and looked on as some 40k ripoff when a lot of the evidence is superficial and could be explained by shared inspiration (Starship Troopers and Aliens franchise). Protoss are moreso Force-wielding Yautja/Predators without much facial features than they are Eldar, they don't use psionics like warp magick. And the Zerg, they and the Nids never looked alike than later on, and the way they are structured closely resembles the Arachnids. The deal for a game wasn't for SC and 40k too but their predecessors Warcraft and Fantasy, and why would you go for a new deal when the reason why it didn't go ahead was because a bunch of your team wanted more creative control?
Anyway, Starcraft is actually somewhat OP in its own right. The Terrans have their standard CMC armour which I heard has auto aim, auto stim, basic NBC shielding, life support, and their gauss guns fire supersonic needle rounds, they have good manufacturing abilities, they can deploy psionics users, have a knack for adapting, etc.
The Zerg can do the hivemind evolution thing but with seemingly more deliberation with the forms they take, they can spread infestations, they can swim through the ground which explains their burrowing ability, etc.
The Protoss are like the Imperium if it had more Dark Age tech, they are naturally attuned to psionics, they can use void energy as well, they have strong shields, and a lot of their stuff would be pre-built things and they just teleport things in and out as long as there are pylons. Their psi blades are said to be able to cut through anything with ease, and warriors could just be teleported when endangered though they have a culture of honouru somewhat like Elites. They can also glass planets. Their void energy users could blend in with the shadows and teleport with it.
Good video. I think only thing with putting the Flood into a 40k setting is it's hard to resolve how the warp would interact with it.
I 100% agree, the warp is the only wildcard
I’ve always wondered how if the precursors we basically gods, how did they lose to the forerunners. Finally found the answer. Never thought of them intentionally “losing”. Great video. Just happened to be the first video I’ve seen from you.
They had powerful tech and knowledge, but they weren't omnipotent. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean a bunch of dudes with sticks can't beat you to death first.
@@TexMeta Halo Cryptum: pg 157, (Bornstellar getting a glimpse of a Precursor mind through the Didact's imprint, who had acquired the Logic Plague from a previous conversation with the Primordial, and the Logic Plague being the grafting of a Precursor mind onto the mind of the recipient, granting a greater degree of control over the recipient's perceptions and decisions).
"It was knowledge that belonged to others from very fare away, other existences where life and death were meaningless, light and darkness twisted together, where the twin fists of time uncurled their fingers and joined in a clasp, so that nothing changed or ever would."
That in no uncertain terms shows the Precursors to be eternal constants, beyond the confines of time, the nature of which makes them omniscient, which combined with the scope of their power is effectively omnipotence. The Forerunners didn't understand the nature of the Precursors, and assumed that they'd achieved their abilities through technological prowess, which is not accurate.
From what i have seen or heard, especially from the new lore, they really did do it on purpose, they arent just beings who reincarnate or something and the flood was that gone wrong, they just are. The flood is just one of their avatars, their role to be the common enemy to unite against, a universal threat. Its like a sort of carrot and stick, but mantle of responsibility and the flood i guess?
I understand there are rare tyranids that can consume metal which would include necrons obviously. There's a reason the silent king was terrified when he discovered them at the edge of the galaxy.
I thought everyone understood Forerunners, Precursors, Ancient Humanity and the Flood would absolutely each dominate WH40K simply because they're all (save Flood) around Golden Age of Humanity level of tech and the Flood would simply consume all the Tyranid biomass and combine with them, eventually spreading to their origin galaxy and consuming that too.
The Flood seem quite vulnerable to exterminatus.
Precursors are literally gods
@@ryanstewart2289the imperium seeing a Venus fly trap planet thing smack a ship outta da sky 😮😮😮😮
@@ryanstewart2289 only in the beginning, once they eat enough people to gain the knowledge to pilot ships or even hide themselves in ships, which as we seein Halo CE the flood are smart enough to do with only a proto gravemind, which needs about a few hundred to a few thousand infections to form. So yeah the flood would be easy to wipe out if you catch it early, otherwise its game over
"Around golden age of Humanity level of tech" And peak humanity in 40k is not even close to War in Heaven era Necron Empire. WiH era Warhammer is probably the most insane batshit sci-fi universe there is in terms of power levels.
It pisses me off a little bit how little info is really known about the tyranids. They have like no expanded lore and theres almost nothing on the hive mind. Could it really hurt GW to maybe let us see it one day? Or even explain where the tyranids exactly come from and how big of a scale they have in the universe? Honestly tyranids need more lore and info about them
You have quite a few fundamentally wrong assumptions about how tyranids work but I get your point.
The biggest and most glaring issue is the assumption that Leviathan was to "steam roll" when in reality characters with privileged information have stated that they think Leviathan may just be a scouting force, barely a little peak into this direction
What else can you compare hive fleet leviathan to? Even if it was a scouting fleet it did damage on the scale of the Imperium in the 30k
@@MacroLore I'm not saying they didn't steam roll, simply that the fleets function was most likely intended to see what was going on away from the main force rather than specifically sent for the purposes stated in the video.
I like the theory that all the Tyranids we've seen so far are just scouts
Pancreasnowork also did a video about how the flood could take over 40k
Many people have. lots of Homogeneity between people who make content on the same stuff. The 2 universes have a decent bit in common aswell
@@MacroLore very true I can't wait for your part 2
the forerunner achievement list you specify barely scratches pre slanesh eldar.
The problem is the flood will be all but immune to the tyranids as the flood supercell will be transforming the tyranids the moment they enter melee combat. The strength of the tyranids, where they can digest the enemy and eachother to generate new forms, doesn't work here as the supercell won't give them enough time.
They will be food, nothing more.
Except the Tyranids can only be transformed by the Tyranids themselves. They would easily become immune to the flood. Its clear you don't know 40k lore.
@nuke2099 You can't adapt to the flood. The flood infection is less of an infection and more of a thinking organism. The flood adapt to a new species in literal seconds. The tyranids have never been that fast with adapting.
@@nuke2099 It's specifically impossible to become immune to the flood. You can become resistant to specific vectors of infection, but flood immunity is directly stated to be impossible.
@@blackjoker2345 Sorry but you have to use 40k rules. Tyranids would adapt out of it. They always do.
@@nuke2099 Why? That would be like me saying "No you have to work by halo rules, the warp doesn't exist so the hivemind gets deleted and all tyranids are permanently feral".
They also can't "adapt to anything" in-universe, otherwise bolter, lasgun, and other artillery fire would have stopped working already.
1. We don't have enough information on the Tyranids.
2. The Necrons.
3. Warp f*ckery and the chaos God's.
4. The C'tan.
These are but the most prominent problems for the Flood.
It's honestly a bit sad seeing so many people say number company bad. Like, I know they haven't done a steller job on the games, but they have apparently done significantly better on the extended universe side of things. What with actually talking about what the setting was like before the games instead of just being vague and saying MyStErY constantly. Gonna be honest, it really just seems like so many people are just stuck in the early days of the number company being in charge, unable to move on, and accept that not everything the number company has done has been bad
Given how the precursors liked to spend their time by experiencing different apsects of life, I think it is entirely plausible that they just let themselves be killed, especially if they made a way for themselves to come back at a later date. After all, death is just another part of life, ultimately
PLOT TWIST: The two don’t fight each other and instead it all falls into a civil debate between the Hivemind and the Gravemind.
The Flood are no way omnipotent. They have limitations but I will compile the traits they have from what I have observed them being capable of doing and to what effective extent. From what have been able to discern and distinguish.
The Gravemind's spirit actually always the same with every incarnation of it. All those other seperately formed Graveminds are truly extentions of the mind of the Flood. His personality has always remained the same. All it takes is just enough biomass to remember what happened before. His memories of what he has experienced in the past will return fully in time and completely intacted. And his processing of knowledge and information is rabidly quick and never seems to falter and instead as the infestation spread his capacity to output complex thoughts and creative indepth strageies and tactics that are constantly adapting and improving his perception, institutions, and problem solving skills. He will use every single asset to his advantage of winning every game. From lying, misdirection, exploiting, undermining, lying in wait, ambushes every strategy and tactic he will create and use cohesively to it's maximum effective lethality.
He also uses the technologies, industries, weaponry, and defenses of all his adversaries at a astronomical growth rate that will eventually outpace whole hyper advance Ai networks. He will use Slipspace, the Domain, and all kinds assets to his rapidly growing assets This is something the Tyranids never had to deal with before.
Now that is a good example of both panmnesia and hypercogniton superpowers.
The Gravemind also unlike the Tyranid Hivemind who is not as quick or creative can absorb the souls of his victims permanently. As seen when the Forerunners were trying to revive the mind of a infected combat form they captured by composing the Combat form and puting the subject's mind into a clone body that was uninfected without the Flood supercell. The experiment failed miserably as when they did that, the clone body immediately turned into a Combat Form. The mind of the combat form was lost forever absorbed into the Gravemind and all the information he ever experienced with him as well. Not even the Tyranid Hivemind ever had soul absorption and information gathering like the Gravemind did.
Even if the Tyranids do have the ability to adapt atleast to a point where they develop the proper countermeasures to resist the Flood supercell's infection rate if not be immune to it the Flood have other tactics in mind.
They could simply kill the Tyranids bioforms and ships through direct combat and war which case the Gravemind is a far better tactician and strageic perceptive commander then any Tyranid swarmlord ever was who will constantly observe analyze the current and future situations and be aware when and where to opply maximum damage or prioritize the target in attoseconds.
Gravemind's grip over every one of it's pureforms and combat forms are even tighter and seemly far stronger then the Tyranid Hivemind. Though there are times where a infected host could atleast resist the Flood Overmind's will such as Jenkins those times are too few and far between and only during the times where the Flood outbreak is at it's weakest or very old infection forms. And even then most will not be able to make enough decisive impacts to stop the infestation's growth rate.
Once the Gravemind is in the galactic stage and has a keymind those issues of a host resisting is over as the Gravemind's ability to project it's will becomes stronger and far more consolidated and organized then before.
During this time it unlocks both reality manipulation with Neural physics and the Logic Plauge to it's already op stats. This is the time when it's all over as the Gravemind will now directly manipulate reality to a limited but greater extent as it grows. With the logic plauge it can subject it doesn't want to infect quite yet or use ai against it's opponents in the game of total war. It is ruthless and proactively efficient at what it possess and does perpetually.
This is a war of escalation between the Flood and Tyranids. And when it comes to escalation and able to keep up their cohesion the Flood have shown to be both a superior intelligence in the art of warfare and have a far more effective army who do not waste time through attrition like the Tyranids often do. And it doesn't always use superior numbers to win a war. When it knows it's forces are low it will preserve them and use them where and when the situation is best for it to act. It will use Logic Plauge infected machines in a war against the Tyranids. And the Flood will take whatever dead biomass they can harvest.
There is no doubt in my mind the Flood will create multiple armadas of fleets and task forces whose purpose and specializations is to target and isolate Tyranid hivefleets and hit them where they are weakest and assimilate the dead bioships when they can and see what they have adapted to resist the Flood supercell and steal those traits as well. Defense in depth, hit and run tactics, and superior firepower are some of the few options the Flood can do to weaken the Tyranid advance as it prioritizes the growth of it's armies and keyminds and creating Pure Forms which will take on the Tyranids varies bioforms and kill the Swarmlords. The Flood has some pure forms who specialize at assassination and covert operations though they are bit more seperate from the Gravemind's direct control to encourage creative thought and be unpredictable to the Gravemind's enemies. Eventually the Gravemind will go on the offensive once it is confident and self assured that it's forces are strong enough fight back against the Tyranids tendrils which takes years or decades to travel around the Milky Way's star clusters.
I give this a complete decisive victory over to the Flood majority of time with their strageies, tactics, cohesion, intuitions, stealing traits, and decisive thinking indepth. These being the greatest advantages the Flood have as a infestation horde.
There are few infestations in fiction can rival or surpass the Flood. Even Stellaris Devouring Swarms despite their advance traits don't quite compare to the Flood especially in growth rate in the beginning. Though they would eventually get up there as their technologies grow more powerful.
However there are some infestation factions who I think can be perfect contenders who can defeat it through keeping up. Such as the fleshly cosmic legions of the low elder god Yaldabaoth of the SCP Mythos.
And the Blight from A Fire Upon the Deep who needed to be stopped through creating a multilayer galaxy wide phenomenon to be a effective countermeasure to the Blight's potency. The Blight have a way of spreading through both organics and technology that is extremely similar to the Logic Plauge. It's very good and ruthless at it. You want the Flood to face opponent nearly as equal to them? You can call upon the Blight for that match up.
The Flood would also most likely lose to the Xeelee or the Photino Birds. Thank you for the feedback
@@MacroLore
Definitely so. I don't think they have a available method potent enough to infect something like the Xeelee or Photino birds. Unless they have the technology or gain a strong durability trait and higher powers I don't think they can.
Heck I think they would struggle alot against the Blokkats from Stellaris Gigastructural Engineering even during the Forerunner Flood war.
And against the Stellarborne from Ancient Cache of Technologies the gap in power widens even more.
Species not created by the Precursors are very resilient against the Flood btw.
@@nobleman9393
But how can we say they are resistant to the Flood infection? And to what degree? I would not say they are immune. Especially with the Precursors amd Flood professional experience at psychological and physiological manipulation on a sort of supernatural incorporeal level.
Especially slain Tyranid bioforms can be assimilated and their traits harvested for analysis for the Gravemind. Flood Pure Forms and controller ships can do the job since the Gravemind is tactically more indepthly creative and has better institution skills then the Tyranid Hivemind usually does. He will use everything in his arsenal to get the upper hand of the Tyranids. Even if it means hit and run tactics, ambushes, traps, mines and bombs and other tactics.
@@nobleman9393
How do you know any species not created by the Precursors are very resistant to Flood infection and assimilation?
I have been saying various similar things for a long time, and I am just glad that someone who makes content is saying those things now.
I honestly don't understand the point of this argument. If Tyranids and the Flood ever encountered each other they'd just amalgamate into an unholy monstrosity and the rest of the universe would have an even bigger problem to deal with.
I need to hear part 2 FOR THE ANALYSIS IN COMPARISON OF BIOFORMS AND ABILITY
this video is insane man great work!
I didn't know tyranids vs flood was even an argument being had... I would be much more interested in tyranid vs zerg or xenomorph.
Yeah. A Tyranid hive fleet or fleets vs the Zerg would be fair. The flood are just too different.
Why does everyone in this comment section conveniently forget tyranid armor at gaunt levels can tank the deconstruction of matter on its surface? Flood is broken AF, but it’s definitely a fair fight against something which can blind gods in thin concentrations and recover in a week after being burnt to a crisp.
I’ve never heard of the “Inheritor” species the Precursors attempted before the Forerunners, where could I learn more about them?
They are literally a one or two sentence mention in the forerunner trilogy. Cryptum, Primordium, and Silentium. They have 0 lore, I think halo 3-4 writers were setting them
Up to appear then the new ceo came in and brought in a new faction nobody had heard of
You know how the Tyranids are said to be running from something outside the galaxy?
Maybe they're running from the Flood.
That's no longer considered canon. Its fake news.
The Flood’s threat level grows exponentially while Tyranids’ grows linearly
Necrons have toys that can destroy time let alone the galaxy and universe, the problem is trying to applying rules to two different settings, yeah celestial orrery can snuff out systems or the entire galaxy like a fart in the wind, but the breath of the gods will destroy existence if misused
i was just explaining to my buddy last week how i dont find nids terrifying enough and had to compare them to the flood to get my point across.
people really need to keep in mind that the tyrannids are only a CONTENDER in the great clusterfuck that it 40k, whereas the Flood dominated an empire 3 times the size of the imperium and so technologically advanced that they could hollow out stars and turn them into factories, without causing it to go supernova, and the guy overseeing the operation was the underpaid intern from forerunner IT
in all honesty, the only scenario in which the eldrich horror that is the flood looses is if they start out on a semi-important imperial world, not important enough where the imperium fight to get it back because that just gives the flood more bodies, but also not irrelevant enough where the flood just sit there and stew because nobody has noticed the big green ball of biomass sitting there, the flood would only loose if they started on a world that makes them easy to notice, but the imperium doesnt really have value of it and are willing to throw a planet buster at it
Crazy thing out of all this is not if they can destroy each other....it would be if the gravemind and hivemind communicate and ally with each other as their end goal is essentially the same, that would be mental
Yes and no. The flood feed off from consciousness, where as the nids feed off biomass. A symbiotic relationship for sure. But I don’t know if the tyranids would stop or lie dormant for a couple million years like the flood
Flood: *Takes over the Imperium of Man
Keymind: "Am I...the God Emperor?"
Assimilation Failed SUCCESSFULLY.
I always thought the tyranids and flood fighting would just result synthesis
The only thing that could even stand up to the flood even in the war in heaven would be the ctan, and ik damn well the flood would set up a key mind to hunt each one of them down
I think I missed the transition between Flood and Precursors
There is no transition :)
@@MacroLore that’s what I started to think, so rewatched the part 2 more times and finally caught that. I am not a lore expert so I thought there was a singular moment where they transitioned. But you are 100% it’s not a transition, it’s just they are the flood now.
@@gamebrainjagras4193 There's a section in Halo: Cryptum that shows the Precursors to be eternal constants, which means they see the whole of time and are unchangable. That means their biological forms, known for their changeability, are avatars that the Precursors are using. The tactics change, but the Precursors and their goals don't change. That means the Flood wasn't trying to win. It tested ancient humanity, punished the Forerunners' crimes against the Mantle, and it denied the Covenant, Humanity, and the Banished access to technologies they weren't ready for, all for the purpose of helping to ensure that the mortal races had the opportunity to reach their full potential, even as the tactics had to be shifted from peaceful demonstration to adversarial pushing when the Forerunners rebelled.
Flood is like mold, high temperatures and acid kills its cells.
After one generation of nids falls, the next generation will develop unique blood that is either boiling or more acidic than a xenomorph.
The flood will join as a contender in the stalemate of 40K, they wont steamroll every faction.
To add to the second part of this comment:
The necrons: no flesh to contaminate and they aren't AI or robots, they are sentient once-living beings.
The Orks: they are basically infinitely spawning angry mushrooms, it's a permanent stalemate.
Chaos: the only God that would allow this abomination to exist in their realm is nurgle and that's it, but the flood would be unable to control the God of plagues and pestilence.
Everyone else is fair game.
@@unknown47-t6i I don't think you understand how quickly the flood can get out of hand. If the flood are discovered early enough, they could be contained/ outright destroyed. But imagine if they land in a slum on a Hive world........They would form a Gravemind within hours and after they start taking over ships, they would modify them to have slipspace capability and start spreading out across the galaxy, they would have a Keymind within the week. They would have access to Forerunner and Precursor technology, but unlike the Precursors, they would be willing to use it. It wouldn't matter who they come up against, the Flood would win. Necrons: Logic Plague can infect the Necrons. Tyrannids they could just out evolve, plus as soon as a single tyrannid form is infected, they would have all the information on tyrannids and how they work, being able to come up with their own counters to counter the nids. Orks would just be infected, pretty easily at that, Chaos wouldn't be destroyed, but their followers would dwindle substantially. Imperium would put up a good fight, but they would fall. Tau: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Eldar are smart, but they are about on the same level as the Forerunners at best, but in far fewer numbers, they would get stomped.
The thing is most people compare the flood from the games to the Tyrannid in general. The early stages of a flood outbreak, while extremely dangerous, are still relatively mundane. The Flood have to 'climb the tech tree' a bit and advance through different stages before they gain access to the reality bending @#$%, while Tyrannid more or less just scale up and down normally with numbers. The newer stuff regarding the Precursors just makes things even more ridiculous.
Halo is amongst the series that could dominate with the 40k universe. Old sci fi is full of empires that would dunk on the Imperium of man.
Halo is Old sci-fi. Damn I'm old, I thought old sci fi was Asimov, Herbert, and Heinlein. Also 40k is like more than a decade older than Halo...
But yeah Flood smokes 40k galaxy, no contest.
The UNSC probably wouldn't simply because they lack the resources and territory to sustain fighting a war against them.
What about the artifacts in the Imperial Palace? They’ve got some fun ones…
I think the precursor neural science is like a mastery of what the 40k universe interprets as psyionics and the warp. The precursors probably have full control over their universes Warp and psysical space
One thing in havo v warhammer is plasma 40k plasma sucks and is hard to use it still one shots 60% of things halo has plasma so perfect they can give a wepon better than than 40k plasma to cannon fodder
earned my sub for sure, looking forward to great things from you homie
Next video astartes vs Spartans
Maybe not the next. But I can add it to the list for sure. Look out for it the first or second week in March :)
@@MacroLore I'd suggest doing Spartans vs Vindicare Assassins, because the Vindicares' role in the Imperium is much closer to what the Spartan IIs and IIIs were designed for than the Space Marines, even though by necessity the Spartans are often forced to fill the latter role.
@@lennardchurch8483 I have a video soon about something similiwt
As a huge halo fan i would say that astartes wins and quite easily even. Spartans are like captain america in heavy bullet proof vests and helmet as astartes are cap, hulk and in some instances thor (psychic abilities) molded together and put inside an armor made of tanks. Weakest astartes are like Atriox compared to Master Chief based on what i have read about them. When it comes to super soldiers, WH40k is absolutely ridiculous😂
@@lennardchurch8483 Isn't it funny how most Spartans don't use Sniper Rifles?
the forerunners knew about the precursors but forgot they killed their makers
Technically, the Forerunners killed their creators' avatars, and they were only able to accomplish that because their creators allowed them to do that, by not having the avatars fight back.
What if the neds are running from the flood
The biggest problem with the flood vs tyranid debate hinges on two very critical questions.
1. Can the flood "consistently" infect the tyranids? We know that the flood supercell would he able to infect them initially. But the tyranids have the ability to adapt. If the tyranids can overcome the supercell, I see no reason that they would lose, at least not without a significant expenditure of resources and biomass. As the tyranids could just put an immunity into every bioform and flood have never faced an opponent who can resist their infection, we don't know how they would respond to such a change.
2. We know a great amount about the flood keyminds and neural physics. But we know next to nothing about the tyranid hive mind or its psychic potential. How would these two different power systems interact, considering one is based in the physical universe, and the other is based within the immaterium. Would these entities and their powers even be able to interact with each other?
Before I could even declare a winner, these questions need to be answered. We have a decent amount of information on the flood and tyranids, but we are missing critical pieces of information. For now, I would say I cannot give an edge to one or the other.
I'm a diehard 40k fan, but even I can recognize that the Flood from Halo would absolutely DUMPSTER any faction in 40k that isn't capable of bending reality on a whim.
I would give the Necrons a "plausible" because some of their tech is, even by 40k standards, complete bs, plus the fact that they aren't biological.
The Orkz are a a 50/50 coin-toss on whether or not the WAAAAAGGGHHH!!! can make them immune to the flood because they believe it can't infect them. (For people who don't know the Orkz, the WAAAAAGGGHH!!! is a psychic manifestation of the willpower of the Orkz, which grows as the number of Orkz in an area increases. It quite literally renders the Orkz capable of ignoring the laws of physics by allowing their technology to work when by the conventional laws of reality, it would never actually work, simply because they BELIEVE it would. For example, a common Ork belief is that anything painted red goes faster. Under the aegis of the WAAAAAGGGHH!!!, a vehicle painted red will ACTUALLY DRIVE AT A SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER SPEED than one that isn't.) If they are, I'd also say it would be plausible that they could Krump the Flood because the Orkz are just like that.
Lastly, because Chaos isn't an entity from this reality, I'd give them the best odds at beating out the Flood. Personally, I'd feel that it would really boil down to whehter or not Nurgle's plagues, a bunch of which half-exist outside reality/on a metaphysical and/or conceptual level, are capable of infecting (technically purely biological) Flood organisms, and whether or not a given stage of Flood evolution would be capable of infecting things claimed by the Grandfather, or if beings blessed by Nurgle would just add a Flood infection to the other infinity diseases already rotting their putrid forms.