After giving up body building and moving to indoor bouldering (so much more fun) I'm shocked at how quickly my chest , but mainly my shoulder strength has decreased! I'm now making sure to add these types of exercises back in at the end of a climbing session!
I wouldn't recommend skipping antagonist training when you are "on season" since most people don't have such a thing. They just go to the gym every week and think it's enough to do some push ups once a year . As Eric Hörst says, "if you are a serious climber, then antagonist training is your most important workout - do it twice per week"
Lattice has a focus on the more serious climbers and also proven experience and track record. So whom should I listen to? You or them? No insult here, just pure logic. On the other hand you are totally correct IMHO with your statement that most (hobby) climbers just have no on/off seasons as such.
@@AdHesiveErmine Depends. I used to do it at the end of a climbing session, to do it at all. Trashed me even more that day, too much volume anyway. Nowadays I have dedicated strength days, which feels much better. But you have to do it, whatever works for you. There are older Lattice videos, where they discuss training planning (about 2019?), to get in enough rest, and order sessions by intensity etc.
@@chaosengine4597 Why agree with the point being made (that most have no "on/off seasons") if you are just going to come out of the gates being all argumentative (or should I say, being antagonistic? ;) ). Appealing to authority without using your own noggin makes you a sheep. Some of the other information in this video is highly questionable too, e.g. only resting for 2-3 minutes after doing 6-8 reps of shoulder press to failure. That's not quite enough recovery time.
@@2funk2bpunk ok, let me explain: Gehirnautobahn with his comment is trying to invalidate the information provided in the video without taking into account the context of the video and without explaining what their professional experience or evidence is. They state some valid point (that's what I acknowledge) but it's not highly relevant in this case. As for your comment: You state that "2-3 minutes" is not enough whereas this is the typical resting time between repetitions (not between sessions) that professional trainers would tell you more often than not. If you have some background information that provides evidence for your argument, I'm willing to read it and to reflect on my position.
If you do Overhead Presses pay attention to your Hip and Core. - heavier weights make it easy to slip into a bad posture without noticing. For me its works to focus on keeping my hip rotated backwards (like if your hip was a bucket of water you want to pour out to your backside), butt and core engaged and the lower back straight (so no hollow back). Pushing gets much easier and controlled, you avoid kipping and as a bonus you get free body tension training as well :D
With the overhead press, I'd go even further with the form and do it standing. Be sure to keep your core engaged--most people will find that what actually fails first on the overhead press as they add weight isn't their arms: it's their core! The other thing I might add to this is serratus punches (with a cable machine, if you have one). You want to push up and out diagonally to work the serratus muscles. These aren't primary movers in most movements, but they're significantly active stabilizers in almost everything the shoulder does, including your pull movements.
I do standing barbell shoulder press and weighted dips as antagonist training. I feel like training of the shoulders gets really forgotten in training for climbing. Its just so important to have strong shoulders for injury prevention.
Thanks Lara. Yes, finger and forearm extensor work is important but not something we cover in this video. Dumbbell wrist extensor curls or isometrics is a great one to start with!
Hello there! I like the video but I have some questions What about the rotator cuff? Working on shoulder external rotation since lats and pecs involves a lot of shoulder internal rotation Also, wouldn’t be better to do the dumbbell press stand up? That way you engage more your core Last but not least, I think the movement required in the prone T is similar in some positions during climbing, however, exercises like T’s or band pull apart can work on rhomboid muscle and middle traps, which can help with the typical climber forward posture? Thank you very much for your time!
Hi Jan, great points and all off these are good option/exercises for climbers. Rotator cuff work is really important! Standing dumbbell press or even military press is great and where possible we'll advise compound movements that involve more core activation and coordination. Mid-back work is of course also important. We would advise this work also and they builds up a bigger picture in climbing S&C. We don't advise against these but for the sake of introducing the subject of antagonist training we what to keep it simple in this video. The point of the 'Fundamentals Series' is to introduce the subject and provide a max of 3 basic exercises that provide great value to most climbers, even if these have pro's and con's. You clearly know your S&C! So maybe we'll do deep dive into shoulder S&C in the future :)
Thanks Joseph. We have some video already that may help. Check out "Golfer's Elbow From Climbing - Solutions, Causes and Assessment" & "How to Deal with Elbow Injuries (for climbers)"
Question! If I boulder 3-4 times a week at medium intensity, how could I incorporate antagonist training? On my off days? Or after a gym session? Any help is appreciated!
I remember in some videos they mention such trainings could be incorporated as end of a session (before you're completely dead & pumped out). It also seems logical to me.
If you are bouldering that much, I would probably make one of the bouldering workouts a little bit lighter so you have some energy to do antagonists. Another option would be to do few sets of shoulder press or pushups before climbing on 2 days.
It depends how many reps/sets you are doing for push-ups. If you are new to bench press start with low reps keeping many good quality reps in reserve each set, so that you can focus on form without fatigue. When you feel confident the reps you choose to perform depends, but anywhere between 5-12 is fine.
So I've seen a lot about this topic which is fine but the problem I see is that both the lats and the pecs are powerful internal rotators of the shoulder. If you have tight lats and chest, doing push up are just going enhance the problem. What about training shoulder position, thoracic extension, and external rotation of the humerus? I know if I'm feeling tweaks, these are my go-to rehab concepts!
Hi Seth, yes totally agree. Tight chest and hunched shoulders should be addressed if its an issue with a climber. And it can be quite common. All the exercises you mention are great additions to training. Doing these in addition to pressing exercises is a good way to develop well-rounded strength and injury prevention.
I guess you mean the "Arnold press"? If so, I think the standard shoulder press largely targets (shoulder wise) only the front delts, whereas with the Arnold press you will also use your side and rear delts to some extent.
@@rorycrean3043 After thinking about it, I usually start with the dumbbells sideways (palms facing in towards my head) and then rotate to palms facing forward as I reach the top. Does that change anything? I guess it's like a half arnold press.
@@CJski Not sure to be honest, but instinctively I would have thought you'd work your side and rear delts to larger extent than in a standard shoulder press but to a lesser extent than in an Arnold press.
@@CJski If that technique is stable and feels good for you, its great. Whether you are rotating arms or not doesnt really matter. Just work on making the technique stable, reproducible and use full range of motion. Peoples shoulder anatomy and flexibility changes the position that feels comfortable for them. Palms facing the ears, forward or at 45 degrees is fine, whather feels good. The exact angle of your arms doesnt really change the exercise or the muscle activation to a significant degree, so dont worry about it.
whenever I do shoulder press I hear a click in my shoulder joints. This usually happens when I do full range of motion and the click happens when the dumbell is at it's lowest. is this normal?
Sounds like a rotator cuff issue. Clicking isn’t necessarily bad but it can be I’ve found it can be indicative of a lack of strength somewhere. I’ve noticed that using light weights and focusing on using good form (keeping the correct parts of the shoulder engaged) will usually let you do the exercise in a way that doesn’t click. Look into rotator cuff exercises. Do them with light enough weight that your shoulders don’t click. After some time slowly increase the weight/resistance. Don’t worry about lifting a super light weight, you’re trying to learn to activate you’re muscles in the correct way, and if you have an injury load your tendons/ligaments just enough to help them recover.
There's no evidence to say having weak antagonists/an 'imbalance' of muscles leads to injury in an agonist muscle, all things being equal. Don't know why even lattice seems to believe in this myth. It doesn't even make sense from a physiological standpoint. Also the pec major is the second most involved muscle in the pull up. That said training these muscles is beyond important because we use them a ton in climbing.
We don't think a lack of antagonist strength is going to lead to injury but we do think strength in general is protective and important for performance, antagonists included. Plenty of research to support that. I think we are on the same page 😉
Excellent vidéo!
Thank you for the amazing free content.
You are making a great gift to the climbing community
After giving up body building and moving to indoor bouldering (so much more fun) I'm shocked at how quickly my chest , but mainly my shoulder strength has decreased! I'm now making sure to add these types of exercises back in at the end of a climbing session!
I wouldn't recommend skipping antagonist training when you are "on season" since most people don't have such a thing. They just go to the gym every week and think it's enough to do some push ups once a year . As Eric Hörst says, "if you are a serious climber, then antagonist training is your most important workout - do it twice per week"
Do you recommend doing after a climbing session or another day?
Lattice has a focus on the more serious climbers and also proven experience and track record. So whom should I listen to? You or them? No insult here, just pure logic. On the other hand you are totally correct IMHO with your statement that most (hobby) climbers just have no on/off seasons as such.
@@AdHesiveErmine Depends. I used to do it at the end of a climbing session, to do it at all. Trashed me even more that day, too much volume anyway. Nowadays I have dedicated strength days, which feels much better. But you have to do it, whatever works for you.
There are older Lattice videos, where they discuss training planning (about 2019?), to get in enough rest, and order sessions by intensity etc.
@@chaosengine4597 Why agree with the point being made (that most have no "on/off seasons") if you are just going to come out of the gates being all argumentative (or should I say, being antagonistic? ;) ). Appealing to authority without using your own noggin makes you a sheep. Some of the other information in this video is highly questionable too, e.g. only resting for 2-3 minutes after doing 6-8 reps of shoulder press to failure. That's not quite enough recovery time.
@@2funk2bpunk ok, let me explain: Gehirnautobahn with his comment is trying to invalidate the information provided in the video without taking into account the context of the video and without explaining what their professional experience or evidence is. They state some valid point (that's what I acknowledge) but it's not highly relevant in this case.
As for your comment: You state that "2-3 minutes" is not enough whereas this is the typical resting time between repetitions (not between sessions) that professional trainers would tell you more often than not. If you have some background information that provides evidence for your argument, I'm willing to read it and to reflect on my position.
If you do Overhead Presses pay attention to your Hip and Core. - heavier weights make it easy to slip into a bad posture without noticing.
For me its works to focus on keeping my hip rotated backwards (like if your hip was a bucket of water you want to pour out to your backside), butt and core engaged and the lower back straight (so no hollow back).
Pushing gets much easier and controlled, you avoid kipping and as a bonus you get free body tension training as well :D
A really good variation of the shoulder press using just body weight is the pike press.
With the overhead press, I'd go even further with the form and do it standing. Be sure to keep your core engaged--most people will find that what actually fails first on the overhead press as they add weight isn't their arms: it's their core!
The other thing I might add to this is serratus punches (with a cable machine, if you have one). You want to push up and out diagonally to work the serratus muscles. These aren't primary movers in most movements, but they're significantly active stabilizers in almost everything the shoulder does, including your pull movements.
I've incorporated serratus anterior exercises as per climbing phsyio and have noticed worthwhile gains over the first 5 weeks.
Thanks Maddy thanks Josh thank for those accurate info and examples. Please continue to provide us this kind of interesting helps. 🌟😀
I do standing barbell shoulder press and weighted dips as antagonist training. I feel like training of the shoulders gets really forgotten in training for climbing. Its just so important to have strong shoulders for injury prevention.
Thanks Maddy and Josh! What about the antogonists in the forearm?
Thanks Lara. Yes, finger and forearm extensor work is important but not something we cover in this video. Dumbbell wrist extensor curls or isometrics is a great one to start with!
Incline pressups are a much easier way to increase the intensity, rather than jumping to free weights
its not even a plateau of skill...im just a beginner but im definitely worried about injuries. hopefully this helps!
Good explanation. Thanks guys!!!! 👏👏👏
Super helpful
Hello there!
I like the video but I have some questions
What about the rotator cuff? Working on shoulder external rotation since lats and pecs involves a lot of shoulder internal rotation
Also, wouldn’t be better to do the dumbbell press stand up? That way you engage more your core
Last but not least, I think the movement required in the prone T is similar in some positions during climbing, however, exercises like T’s or band pull apart can work on rhomboid muscle and middle traps, which can help with the typical climber forward posture?
Thank you very much for your time!
Hi Jan, great points and all off these are good option/exercises for climbers. Rotator cuff work is really important! Standing dumbbell press or even military press is great and where possible we'll advise compound movements that involve more core activation and coordination. Mid-back work is of course also important. We would advise this work also and they builds up a bigger picture in climbing S&C. We don't advise against these but for the sake of introducing the subject of antagonist training we what to keep it simple in this video. The point of the 'Fundamentals Series' is to introduce the subject and provide a max of 3 basic exercises that provide great value to most climbers, even if these have pro's and con's. You clearly know your S&C! So maybe we'll do deep dive into shoulder S&C in the future :)
I'll be waiting for those videos and keep learning about this beautiful sport!
love your work! :)
Another great video in this series - thanks Lattice. Is there a typo at 8.35? Anything on golfers/tennis elbow would be awesome in future 👍
Thanks Joseph. We have some video already that may help. Check out "Golfer's Elbow From Climbing - Solutions, Causes and Assessment" & "How to Deal with Elbow Injuries (for climbers)"
Question!
If I boulder 3-4 times a week at medium intensity, how could I incorporate antagonist training? On my off days? Or after a gym session? Any help is appreciated!
Personally I’d do after a gym session so you can have a full day of rest
I remember in some videos they mention such trainings could be incorporated as end of a session (before you're completely dead & pumped out). It also seems logical to me.
@@fufumccuddlypoops5502 cool, thanks for the reply!
@@chaosengine4597 thanks!
If you are bouldering that much, I would probably make one of the bouldering workouts a little bit lighter so you have some energy to do antagonists. Another option would be to do few sets of shoulder press or pushups before climbing on 2 days.
I’ll go for yoga cause it’s the opposite type of movement
Nice!
thanks for the content. awesoe exercises. should i include all 3 exercises one after the other in one trainigsession?
Can you keep a good form in all of them? Maybe different time of the day.
Should i do these workout the same day as climbing? Or should i have a day with workout and the next day with climbing?
You can climb and do S&C in the same session, just make climbing the priority and do that first.
When progressing from pushups to bench press, should you maintain the same sets and reps?
It depends how many reps/sets you are doing for push-ups. If you are new to bench press start with low reps keeping many good quality reps in reserve each set, so that you can focus on form without fatigue. When you feel confident the reps you choose to perform depends, but anywhere between 5-12 is fine.
What would be the best exercises to work the antagonists to push ups? I've done push ups for a long time and now I have some pain in my shoulder.
Inverted rows might be good
anyone can explain to me what is off season or base season? i climb 3 times a week all year around...😅
So I've seen a lot about this topic which is fine but the problem I see is that both the lats and the pecs are powerful internal rotators of the shoulder. If you have tight lats and chest, doing push up are just going enhance the problem. What about training shoulder position, thoracic extension, and external rotation of the humerus? I know if I'm feeling tweaks, these are my go-to rehab concepts!
Hi Seth, yes totally agree. Tight chest and hunched shoulders should be addressed if its an issue with a climber. And it can be quite common. All the exercises you mention are great additions to training. Doing these in addition to pressing exercises is a good way to develop well-rounded strength and injury prevention.
Is there a difference between the dumbbell shoulder press as shown versus rotating the dumbbell as it gets to the top?
I guess you mean the "Arnold press"? If so, I think the standard shoulder press largely targets (shoulder wise) only the front delts, whereas with the Arnold press you will also use your side and rear delts to some extent.
@@rorycrean3043 After thinking about it, I usually start with the dumbbells sideways (palms facing in towards my head) and then rotate to palms facing forward as I reach the top. Does that change anything? I guess it's like a half arnold press.
@@CJski Not sure to be honest, but instinctively I would have thought you'd work your side and rear delts to larger extent than in a standard shoulder press but to a lesser extent than in an Arnold press.
@@CJski If that technique is stable and feels good for you, its great. Whether you are rotating arms or not doesnt really matter. Just work on making the technique stable, reproducible and use full range of motion.
Peoples shoulder anatomy and flexibility changes the position that feels comfortable for them. Palms facing the ears, forward or at 45 degrees is fine, whather feels good. The exact angle of your arms doesnt really change the exercise or the muscle activation to a significant degree, so dont worry about it.
Can i swap pronet to chest flys in the gym?
Yes for sure.
whenever I do shoulder press I hear a click in my shoulder joints. This usually happens when I do full range of motion and the click happens when the dumbell is at it's lowest. is this normal?
Sounds like a rotator cuff issue. Clicking isn’t necessarily bad but it can be I’ve found it can be indicative of a lack of strength somewhere. I’ve noticed that using light weights and focusing on using good form (keeping the correct parts of the shoulder engaged) will usually let you do the exercise in a way that doesn’t click. Look into rotator cuff exercises. Do them with light enough weight that your shoulders don’t click.
After some time slowly increase the weight/resistance. Don’t worry about lifting a super light weight, you’re trying to learn to activate you’re muscles in the correct way, and if you have an injury load your tendons/ligaments just enough to help them recover.
@@joepetroske2945 thank you
👍
Actually, the real reason to train your antagonist muscles is to put your protagonist muscles back in their place when they get a bit too cocky.
It’s weird it’s not called a protagonist muscle. Agonist muscle is a weird work
Nothing will fuck your elbows more than doing this, super setting push and pull is not always wise. Particularly for pullups and OHP
Matty is a beautiful form of a woman. I love that accent. Keep up the good work
Love the videos! You are missing out > P r o m o s m !!
Man, the guy's technique on db shoulder press is horrible. 🤦
There's no evidence to say having weak antagonists/an 'imbalance' of muscles leads to injury in an agonist muscle, all things being equal. Don't know why even lattice seems to believe in this myth. It doesn't even make sense from a physiological standpoint.
Also the pec major is the second most involved muscle in the pull up.
That said training these muscles is beyond important because we use them a ton in climbing.
We don't think a lack of antagonist strength is going to lead to injury but we do think strength in general is protective and important for performance, antagonists included. Plenty of research to support that. I think we are on the same page 😉
Where are you from? I always thaiugt i understand english, but your speech was very dificult listen. No ofens🙂