For anyone wanting to buy the part he is talking about, this is it. PowerBond Race Performance Harmonic Balancer PB1117SS. The price is no longer $200. The current price is $256.99.
Had a wobbly balancer on my 98 convertible. Took it to a corvette specialist to have it repaired. He recommended I pin it. Because you said I should, I did. Thank you. BTW the car only had 38k miles. So as you say this is a time issue not a mileage issue.
My neighbor and I just replaced his 2007 harmonic balancer without removing steering rack or any other stuff yeap it was tricky but nothing to remove but harmonic balancer bolt and the piece itself
Hi Lyle, As always your advice was right on. I took my C5 in for oil change and talk to my shop about pinning my balancer, just to be proactive, turns out it was going bad. Thanks to this video, I would have never known what to look for. It cost me about a $900, but I feel it was well worth it. Thanks Again!!
Just bought a C5 yellow convertible, I love it, doing the entire front pulley, water pump, harmonic balancer because i have spring break to do it before it gets hot here in Arizona, woohoo!!!
A couple ways I found some good mechanics: the local news paper does an annual “readers choice awards” where people vote for local businesses in various categories (bit of a popularity contest). Also I went into a couple auto parts suppliers and spoke with owners/managers to find out who services their fleet vehicles. Since they supply parts to dozens of garages they know the better ones from the not so good ones.
Thx, just bought a 3rd hand C6 with 82k miles.... definitely going to check into this.... the problem will be finding someone who will do it and get the parts.... btw, Orange County, CA
I own a C5 with 12k and a C6 Grand Sport with 14k on the odometers, noticed a slight wobble on both, took my C6 to GMC dealer tech said it was fine, that he has not seen one that does not wobble a bit. He changed out fluids and said no need to touch it, its good. I trust the mechanic and have known him for many years.
Wow.!! Thanks Lyle. I've learned so much just watching this and other 2 videos of yours...just wish I could have someone as yourself with me when purchasing my first corvette...C5 or C6..? Thanks again Mr. Lyle....very glad to have learned so much. God bless America and the V8. :)
This is good advice, I track my C6 Z51 regularly and had the entertainment of having the balancer bolt come out, didn't do a lot of damage, and is a big job to do on a Z51 because of all the cooler lines, but necessary for sure. Nothing like coming up on a corner at 140 plus and finding out the power steering belt has come off! GM's idea of how to repair this is to put locktite on the face of the bolt, ridiculous! (Cubicle Engineers)
Put a 4'' Magnet in the oil pan. All the fine metal will be held on the magnet not run back into the engine. The fine metal is the main reason for engine ware.
Lyle, thanks for another informative video. I was wondering if you might have a comprehensive parts list you guys use for this job, including the "while you are in there" parts like the water pump, belts, idlers, tensioners and anything else you would recommend. Y'all obviously have a long track record of successful work, so whatever parts you guys are using must be pretty bulletproof.
They did what he called a "front end job" on my 2000 C5. Replaced the harmonic balancer with the Summit part, pinned in place, replaced both belts, tensioners, idlers and the crank snout seal.
And that's exactly what I will do, My HB was changed 2500 miles ago, and now exactly the same thing happened to me, the engine was running but the belts stod still, the bolt has come loose, so I intend to do exactly as you recommend, Summit Racing HB and pin it. Super Lyle, i watch all your videos.
My 2011 Grand Sport with 27k miles has a slight wobble to the crank pulley/balancer. What a bummer. At least it still appears aligned and hasn’t walked forward or backward yet (although I reached down with my phone and took a close up pic and it looks like there a little residue of aluminum particles is inside the pulley!). I live in NJ and have a tiny garage so can’t do this myself, I’m actually thinking of driving to Sarasota to have C&S do the right job the right way if Covid ever makes that trip feasible!
You certainly can. The LS engine is internally balanced, so removing x number or grams of steel in the drilling and replacing it with a steel pin doesn't upset balance in any way. Of course, if you really want two pins, the same idea applies. Lyle :)
So i have a 2001 LS! 5.7 block, with a LSA supercharger in my FJ40 ran great for 1yr, (now to do this build i needed a different balancer and the balancer does have a key slot in it this confused me)... and ive noticed the balancer coming loose, never seen this before so i got an ARP bolt popped it in and it was holding for a few weeks and yesterday the darn balancer just fell off!!! so i reach down to feel the crank shaft to see if the woodruff key was broken, sheered or whatever and i noticed there was no woodruff key slot... so now im pulling my hair out trying to figure out where the slot was and how is this possible... then i found your video!!! so my engine is a C5 and has no key NO WONDER! i ordered a new balancer and this time im going to PIN it thx brotha! I'm going to be calling your shot to ask you what i should get instead of the balancer im using, i may want to switch to the one from summit!
My car only has the basic 345 horsepower and I haven’t heard about the spinning problem before. I did have the harmonic balancer replaced once as wobble started looking scary. Not that it’s ever run without any wobble at all but that seems to be normal.
That makes no sense. Those are two separate issues. The separation of the balancer is due to the rubber going bad. The aftermarket balancer fixes that problem. The spinning of the balancer on the crank is due to there not being a keyway so the entire thing can spin... You do both. It isn't an either or thing...
Had no idea, now I understand what pinning the harmonic balancer is. Question, I bought my 2011 vet last year, how can I tell if my balancer is pinned or not?
If your balancer is an original style unit, the chances of it being pinned are near zero. If it is an aftermarket upgraded unit, you would have to get a camera down in front of the balancer and take some pics. Looking for a 1/4" little circle where the crank and balancer meet. Lyle
Hey Lyle !! Thanks for such a nice video, really clear information right to the point, i got a quick question i have a ls3 corvette , but im thinking on cam it so ill be around 450 hp , with bolts on and tune , should i pin the pulley? Im no thinking on going forced induction and im not going to the track, just street use, ill be ok if just replace the pulley or its a must to do this pin thing ? Thanks !!
The pin is a great safety item, regardless of the power you are making--it takes a few minutes, but totally worth the peace of mind in my opinion. Lyle
Lyle you talk about "Summit " harmonic balancer in video, your preferred so it won't walk, around $200 so which is your preferred, I have 2005 convert with 68,000 mi this will be my 3rd replacement in 5 years need better option then OEM, besides OEM out of production at moment and has been sitting on lift for 17 weeks at dealer
Lyle, how about a lesson for dummies! How to inspect the harmonic balancer? With how to for any first time C5/C6 buyers. I ask because I do see a lot for sale and wonder if the damage has been done? If ya know what I mean! Oh yes tell the inspector/buyer to wear a shirt that WILL get dirty.
The harmonic balancer spins nice and straight on the crank when inspecting it, that is, it should be spinning nice and straight. th-cam.com/video/dpgh6hwQcm4/w-d-xo.html This video shows the balancer starting to wobble. Once the balancer is wobbling, it's probably time get a new one
It is a good idea to pin it because it takes minutes and you are already there. IF you plan on pushing the car hard, it makes even more sense to do it. Lyle
Another good video Lyle, I have a few questions, the adaptor has two holes, do you put two pins in, what size are the pins they look like 5/16 or 8mm dia, do you ream the holes for a tight fit, when installing the bolt after the pins are in place, is there a washer covering the pins to prevent them working out, why is the drill depth set so deep compared to the length of the pins?
Ok: Answer 1: No idea why two holes--one pin is plenty. Answer 2: I'll have to check the size of the pins--I think 1/4" X 1". Answer 3: Reaming is not necessary. Answer 4: No washers, as the flange of the bolt covers the area completely. Answer 5: Drill depth is set to account for 1" (+ a little) depth for pin and 3/4" depth of the adapter. Lyle
@@csvette I agree it's overkill (although maybe not a terrible idea if using a super-charger), other than that balancing is the only other reason I can think of for putting another key in at 180°.
Pinning this does nothing to prevent the failing Harmonic balancer (HB) from walking or failing, so that's pointless and nonsense to say otherwise. And if you really want to avoid a spun HB, pin it. But, that issue is so damn rare that it is much more likely to have been a customer that had their HB replaced and the shopped fucked up in the install (such as reusing the bolt or not following the torque spec) than the balancer randomly deciding it no longer wanted to be press fit. However, always press-fit if you're supercharging.
Right! Pinning it only keeps the balancer from rotating on the crank snout. I don't say that it saves the balancer from failing, and spinning on the crank is rare on street-driven vehicles...it is more common on cars that are tracked/raced. Point is, if you are already replacing the balancer with a better aftermarket unit, why would you not take the 20 additional minutes to fully secure the balancer to the crank? Lyle
Do you have a part number for the pin kit that will work with the summit HB ?. I found multiple and want to make sure it’s the correct one. Thanks for your time and videos
When using the pin kit with the Summit C2501 (which already has a keyway cut into it) for the LS3, should you drill a 'new' notch in the balancer or try to hit the existing one? Seems counterproductive to RTV the existing keyway and drill a new one somewhere else on the ID.
We always drill a stand-alone holef ro our pins. The keyway in the balancer is ignored, as getting a uniform hole for the pin out of that space is troubelsom, even with the template. Lyle
Old school balancers with timing marks could only be put on one way, can a balancer like this be put on at any degree point? And how do you remove it and replace it with another after it has been pinned?
Kirk, the LS engines are internally balanced, so the position of the harmonic dampener is not specific. We pin them simply to avoid rotation on the crank snout, especially at high rpms. Lyle
Will the Harmonic balancer from Summit totally fix the issue? or is there still a chance of it walking/coming out? Also, which in specific is that balancer from Summit, thank you!
Hello Lyle . Question You mentioned that your Mecanic has become very comfortable at replacing these balancers how much hours should GM or a very respected garage charge on the estimate Thank you
David, we charge 5 -6 hours depending on model year. This includes replacing all tensioners, idlers and belts, along with pinning the new balancer to the crank. Lyle
Does anybody know the part number for the balancer from summit ? Mine is starting to wobble a bit and I want to take care of everything before it gets worse ! Also all recommended parts would be awesome thank you!
It isn't "necessary" unless you are spending a lot of time on the track at 8/10ths of the car's ability--it is a very good idea for general safety and peace of mind long-term, regardless of which balancer you choose. Lyle
Great video ! I’m going to look at a atomic orange c6 2009 with only 29k miles for 30 grand tomorrow , first question is do you think it’s a good deal if the car is in good shape or should I talk them down on the price ? 2nd question is how can I check the harmonic balancer to make sure it’s in hood shape ? Thx 🙏🏾
No way to tell if it is a good deal, as there are som many variables involved in every car. You can see the balancer spinning from the passenger's side of the engine bay--if it is wobbling, make replacement part of the deal. Lyle
It only keeps the balancer from spinning on the crankshaft. The creep is caused by the rubber between the outer ring and the hub deteriorating causing the bond between them to fail.
I should have pinned mine after a cam upgrade, but didn't. Is there room to pin the crank with everything back together? If not, is there an easier way than removing everything again? PS I used the Summit balancer you recommended and it's a great piece. Thanks
It isn't difficult to do--you can use the pin as a guide to get it lined up during the re-install or drill a new hole for the pin. Once you have the new balancer pinned, it is very rare to have to pull it, as the crank seal behind it should be replaced when doing the balancer, and they rarely fail. Lyle
Performance shops usually do. We are not a "speed shop", but for the extra 10 minutes involved during the balancer installation we believe it is very inexpensive insurance. :) Lyle
Brent here in Alberta. Do you have a maintenance manual C6. Good ideas- like rear main seal replacement plate rather than just replace seal. Would be nice to have a complete car nice to knows. Thanks
I don't have those ideas all compiled in one file, if that is what you mean. That might not be a bad idea for the future, but at this time I put out the helpful factoids about Corvette care as time and opportunity allow. Thank you the the good idea! Lyle :)
So if I pop my hood and the engine is running and none of the belts are spinning, I rev my motor right? That will loosen them up right? I kid! I kid! :)
Hi, can you let me know why you would replace the harmonic balancer with a new (high performance?) unit especially if the original is still in good condition aftering pinning it? Also, if replacing the HB should I consider an underdrive or overdrive unit. What are the differences and when is it beneficial for each? Thanks!
We pin every balancer we do -- stock or high performance -- because it is an excellent preventative measure that costs less than a decent bottle of red. Once a stock unit begins to wobble, it is only a matter of time before it fails (or worse, eats into your timing cover and oil pan). The high performance units do not have the same design flaw that stock-style ones do, but pinning them is still a best-practice. Over and underdrive pulleys are for racing--extended runs at 5K or above. IF you drive on the street only and just have fun ripping off a few hard pulls from time to time, stick with the stock size unit. Lyle :)
@@csvette like you said Lyle you are their why not do the pins. One you pin it its done. More than likely you'll never have to do it again. Just my opinion.
No no no! We drop the front cradle a few inches to get the steering rack out of the way, which gives you access (and space) to drill what you need to drill from under the car. Definitely need a lift, tho--not one to do on your back! Lyle
GM strikes again. Saved 22 cents on a woodruff key. Made monthly budget. Executives got their bonuses. Wall Street cheered. I thought my '96 was bad. They really do build beautiful garbage. I see them parked in yards everywhere. Permanently.
used to be a huge gm fan because of their styling. still am of their older cars. bought an ecoboost mustang because gm has been disappointing lately. and the s550 mustangs look so dang good to me. never ever thought I'd own a mustang. wanna get a c5 or c6 vette. maybe.
I would only recommend doing that if you already had a non-OEM improved version of the balancer on the car. Otherwise, you would be doing the job twice when the OEM balancer failed in the future. Lyle
Harmonic balancer should be pinned. So how exactly do you do that? tear apart the engine, remove crankshaft, take crankshaft to a machine shop, then put it all back together again? Probably expensive as hell, and then you have to lose piece of mind wondering if some mistakes were made putting it all back together. If it aint broke, dont fix it! a new balancer is so tightly press fitted, and if you follow the GM repair manual instructions you should probably be just fine. I am about to do mine soon. Just gathering special tools and new bolt, doing my research. Also figuring plans a, b, and c for any road blocks.
Do you need to pin the summit harmonic balancer? And how about a video of the harmonic balancer death wobble so we can see what it looks like on the car.... or is this something you just cant miss couse it's so obvious.
Have a question. I replaced the HB with a Summitracing replacement. Now the specs for mine calls for torqueing with the old bolt to 240 LBS, then remove, install the new bolt torque to 37 LBS then torque 140 degrees if you have a J-36660-A tool. It then goes on to say if you don’t have the tool, tighten the new damper bolt to 75 lb. Now my damper has a keyway. This is my question. Do i have to torque the bolt 145 degrees if I pin my crank? It appears because the damper has a keyway you don’t need to tighten it the additional 140 degrees, but if there is no pin or keyway then the additional 140 degrees would be required to keep it from slipping. Your thoughts.
I would still do the full procedure as proscribed--it can't hurt a thing, so execute the follow-through. Lyle (Sorry for the delay in responding--missed this comment earlier) Lyle
Hi Doug! Pinning the balancer won't stop it from deteriorating and wobbling in the future. It stops the balancer from rotating on the snout of the crank. If yours isn't wobbling, just check it once a month to make sure it doesn't start wobbling. When the time comes to replace it, THEN pin it. Lyle :)
Excellent piece. Expensive. Really only worthwhile if you have a supercharger or spend a good amount of time on a track. For daily driver cars, OEM-type units are perfectly fine. Lyle
@@rrf6747 I recommend the Power Bond PB1117SS from Summit racing---a very good compromise between stock units an the ATI. It has no rubber bonding strip to fail and costs over a hundred bucks less than the ATI. Lyle
@@csvette dont care about the cost just want one that will last and not fail my opinion on parts like this is they should last the lifetime of the engine or car
@@csvette Lyle, the summit site says that this damper has a keyway cut in it, do you guys try to fill that, or just install with it open and not worry about it? I don't understand why they don't offer this damper without a keyway when it's going on an LS crank, are they assuming everyone is going to use an aftermarket crank?
My 2005 vette i just lost power steering and charging... Checked under hood with it off and all seem good.. Then i found crank pully bolt finger loose, so im assuming it spun.... Was told on a forum that i need crank now ... But i still gotta tear it apart in my driveway.. Im assuming crank is alot harded and i just need to pin new balancer to crank.... Have you seen any that have spun and need a crank ? Mine is visually still on all the way, at least it looks like it is.
Those cranks are very hard, and if it only happened for a minute or two, you should be okay. Just clean up the crank really well and replace the balancer.
@@csvette Got the rack out today... Not to bad of a job ... My question is when my pin kit arrives is there room to get bit/drill up in there to do it... seems tight without removing fan assembly
Has anyone ever considered pinning through the edge of the main bolt to keep it from backing out? The bolt backing out is the common problem, so why not lock it in place once it's torqued to the proper specs.
If you rev out the engine regularly--ie track time--pinning the balancer to the crank is still a good idea. The ATI will never come apart like the OEM item does, but it can still rotate on the crank snout. IT takes about 20 minutes to do while replacing the balancer, and makes a great deal of sense. Lyle
![ถามตรงๆ กับ อาจตุพร ทำไม ประเทศไทย ใครเป็นนายก ก็โดนด่า พอออกเเล้วคนคิดถึง!!?? l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3YFLMXxBGAs/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s hard to fathom how GM could design a new more powerful Gen 3/4 small block and screw up something as basic as a harmonic balancer.
Just like they can't figure out how to drill a round hole on the LS7 valve guides, or how to make an alloy wheel that won't crack.
That’s Our GM. Clueless MF’rs
You mean the same folks that put the OptiSpark in the C4 underneath the water pump?
Engineers of any type are stupid-zero common sense!
For anyone wanting to buy the part he is talking about, this is it. PowerBond Race Performance Harmonic Balancer PB1117SS. The price is no longer $200. The current price is $256.99.
Had a wobbly balancer on my 98 convertible. Took it to a corvette specialist to have it repaired. He recommended I pin it. Because you said I should, I did. Thank you. BTW the car only had 38k miles. So as you say this is a time issue not a mileage issue.
Thank you for sharing your findings.
My neighbor and I just replaced his 2007 harmonic balancer without removing steering rack or any other stuff yeap it was tricky but nothing to remove but harmonic balancer bolt and the piece itself
Hi Lyle, As always your advice was right on. I took my C5 in for oil change and talk to my shop about pinning my balancer, just to be proactive, turns out it was going bad. Thanks to this video, I would have never known what to look for. It cost me about a $900, but I feel it was well worth it. Thanks Again!!
Just bought a C5 yellow convertible, I love it, doing the entire front pulley, water pump, harmonic balancer because i have spring break to do it before it gets hot here in Arizona, woohoo!!!
Thanks, Lyle man I wish you wasn’t 13 hours away from me. I live in Tennessee and I cannot find anybody. I trust to work on my vehicles.
A couple ways I found some good mechanics: the local news paper does an annual “readers choice awards” where people vote for local businesses in various categories (bit of a popularity contest). Also I went into a couple auto parts suppliers and spoke with owners/managers to find out who services their fleet vehicles. Since they supply parts to dozens of garages they know the better ones from the not so good ones.
@@tyrel7185 Grate advise THANK YOU so MUCH....
As always great information to have. I just purchased my first corvette. 2008 model and i am glad to hear about things like this.
I appreciate all your assistance.
Thx, just bought a 3rd hand C6 with 82k miles.... definitely going to check into this.... the problem will be finding someone who will do it and get the parts.... btw, Orange County, CA
Thank u Lyle! Keep learning more and more with every video cant wait til i get a C5!
Once again thank you, very important to know 👍
I just subscribed to your channel. I have owned an 84 years ago, fixing to buy my next vette. Keep cranking out the content. Thanks for all the info.
Great tip and glad you educated us on this.
Thanks for making these videos! Very helpful for US Vette owners. Noob C4 here.
I own a C5 with 12k and a C6 Grand Sport with 14k on the odometers, noticed a slight wobble on both, took my C6 to GMC dealer tech said it was fine, that he has not seen one that does not wobble a bit. He changed out fluids and said no need to touch it, its good. I trust the mechanic and have known him for many years.
Wow, great information
You guys are amazing.
Wow.!! Thanks Lyle. I've learned so much just watching this and other 2 videos of yours...just wish I could have someone as yourself with me when purchasing my first corvette...C5 or C6..? Thanks again Mr. Lyle....very glad to have learned so much. God bless America and the V8. :)
It will be nice if there is video for that... Thanks for amazing info
Very helpful video
This is good advice, I track my C6 Z51 regularly and had the entertainment of having the balancer bolt come out, didn't do a lot of damage, and is a big job to do on a Z51 because of all the cooler lines, but necessary for sure.
Nothing like coming up on a corner at 140 plus and finding out the power steering belt has come off!
GM's idea of how to repair this is to put locktite on the face of the bolt, ridiculous! (Cubicle Engineers)
I love your videos and all the information that you give us is awesome thanks!!!
I just subscribed
Looking forward to more tech videos.
Put a 4'' Magnet in the oil pan. All the fine metal will be held on the magnet not run back into the engine. The fine metal is the main reason for engine ware.
Lyle, thanks for another informative video. I was wondering if you might have a comprehensive parts list you guys use for this job, including the "while you are in there" parts like the water pump, belts, idlers, tensioners and anything else you would recommend. Y'all obviously have a long track record of successful work, so whatever parts you guys are using must be pretty bulletproof.
This is a good question. I hope he chimes in.
They did what he called a "front end job" on my 2000 C5. Replaced the harmonic balancer with the Summit part, pinned in place, replaced both belts, tensioners, idlers and the crank snout seal.
Great info as usual!
Coral Gables 🌴🇺🇸 A video on PIN REMOVAL would be helpful also Kyle. Oh , sorry , Lyle ! 🏄
And that's exactly what I will do, My HB was changed 2500 miles ago, and now exactly the same thing happened to me, the engine was running but the belts stod still, the bolt has come loose, so I intend to do exactly as you recommend, Summit Racing HB and pin it. Super Lyle, i watch all your videos.
Did you have to replace the engine?
@@williamalm273 No i was lucky, just shange the HB and pin it.
@@janjohansson3855 copy that thank you for the tip!
very informative video. thanks
Hi Lyle.............more good stuff, thanks! /murray/van bc
My 2011 Grand Sport with 27k miles has a slight wobble to the crank pulley/balancer. What a bummer. At least it still appears aligned and hasn’t walked forward or backward yet (although I reached down with my phone and took a close up pic and it looks like there a little residue of aluminum particles is inside the pulley!).
I live in NJ and have a tiny garage so can’t do this myself, I’m actually thinking of driving to Sarasota to have C&S do the right job the right way if Covid ever makes that trip feasible!
Good to know!
Great tip and I think I need this. :-/
Hi Lyle. I have a 2013 base model bone stock. Do I need to watch my h balancer too. Thanks for all your great help
Oh cmon yt algorithm! why couldn't you pop this up last week!
Given the "Guide" has two holes....why not drill and pin it twice 180 Degrees apart to maintain balance?
You certainly can. The LS engine is internally balanced, so removing x number or grams of steel in the drilling and replacing it with a steel pin doesn't upset balance in any way. Of course, if you really want two pins, the same idea applies. Lyle :)
So i have a 2001 LS! 5.7 block, with a LSA supercharger in my FJ40 ran great for 1yr, (now to do this build i needed a different balancer and the balancer does have a key slot in it this confused me)... and ive noticed the balancer coming loose, never seen this before so i got an ARP bolt popped it in and it was holding for a few weeks and yesterday the darn balancer just fell off!!! so i reach down to feel the crank shaft to see if the woodruff key was broken, sheered or whatever and i noticed there was no woodruff key slot... so now im pulling my hair out trying to figure out where the slot was and how is this possible... then i found your video!!! so my engine is a C5 and has no key NO WONDER! i ordered a new balancer and this time im going to PIN it thx brotha! I'm going to be calling your shot to ask you what i should get instead of the balancer im using, i may want to switch to the one from summit!
I have them on the shelf if you need one. :) Lyle
I used the OEM balancer after wobbling. Lasted one hour… My only mods on the C6 add a mere 100 HP. I guess we will pin next time LoL
Hi Lyle...I just recently purchased a 1200 mile 2012 ZR1. Does the LS9 engine have the same balancer and issue?
My car only has the basic 345 horsepower and I haven’t heard about the spinning problem before. I did have the harmonic balancer replaced once as wobble started looking scary. Not that it’s ever run without any wobble at all but that seems to be normal.
I like the idea of the aftermarket Balancer that wont separate. Better than the pin idea IMO.
That makes no sense. Those are two separate issues. The separation of the balancer is due to the rubber going bad. The aftermarket balancer fixes that problem. The spinning of the balancer on the crank is due to there not being a keyway so the entire thing can spin...
You do both. It isn't an either or thing...
Had no idea, now I understand what pinning the harmonic balancer is. Question, I bought my 2011 vet last year, how can I tell if my balancer is pinned or not?
If your balancer is an original style unit, the chances of it being pinned are near zero. If it is an aftermarket upgraded unit, you would have to get a camera down in front of the balancer and take some pics. Looking for a 1/4" little circle where the crank and balancer meet. Lyle
Hey Lyle !! Thanks for such a nice video, really clear information right to the point, i got a quick question i have a ls3 corvette , but im thinking on cam it so ill be around 450 hp , with bolts on and tune , should i pin the pulley? Im no thinking on going forced induction and im not going to the track, just street use, ill be ok if just replace the pulley or its a must to do this pin thing ? Thanks !!
The pin is a great safety item, regardless of the power you are making--it takes a few minutes, but totally worth the peace of mind in my opinion. Lyle
Would the harmonic balancer replacement and pinning be recommended for a 2015 Camaro SS with a 6.2 L
Lyle you talk about "Summit " harmonic balancer in video, your preferred so it won't walk, around $200 so which is your preferred, I have 2005 convert with 68,000 mi this will be my 3rd replacement in 5 years need better option then OEM, besides OEM out of production at moment and has been sitting on lift for 17 weeks at dealer
Would you still recommend pinning it after replacing it with an aftermarket hb?
Yes, I would. Lyle :)
This sounds great, but how do I remove that pin in the future?
Just super glue it back together all fixed lol
Does the steering rack need to be removed to replace HB on c6? If so, any tips on best way to do this? Thank you!
What is the part number for the summit racing balancer that won’t walk?
Thank you for an awesome video. Do LS7’s suffer from this?
Yep. Same balancer
@@csvette , thank you for your reply.
Lyle, how about a lesson for dummies! How to inspect the harmonic balancer? With how to for any first time C5/C6 buyers. I ask because I do see a lot for sale and wonder if the damage has been done? If ya know what I mean! Oh yes tell the inspector/buyer to wear a shirt that WILL get dirty.
The harmonic balancer spins nice and straight on the crank when inspecting it, that is, it should be spinning nice and straight. th-cam.com/video/dpgh6hwQcm4/w-d-xo.html
This video shows the balancer starting to wobble. Once the balancer is wobbling, it's probably time get a new one
Do you need to pin it even if you get a new high performance balancer?
It is a good idea to pin it because it takes minutes and you are already there. IF you plan on pushing the car hard, it makes even more sense to do it. Lyle
Another good video Lyle, I have a few questions, the adaptor has two holes, do you put two pins in, what size are the pins they look like 5/16 or 8mm dia, do you ream the holes for a tight fit, when installing the bolt after the pins are in place, is there a washer covering the pins to prevent them working out, why is the drill depth set so deep compared to the length of the pins?
Ok: Answer 1: No idea why two holes--one pin is plenty. Answer 2: I'll have to check the size of the pins--I think 1/4" X 1". Answer 3: Reaming is not necessary. Answer 4: No washers, as the flange of the bolt covers the area completely. Answer 5: Drill depth is set to account for 1" (+ a little) depth for pin and 3/4" depth of the adapter. Lyle
Thanks for the quick reply, as a tool maker I was just inquisitive, thanks again,
@@csvette The second at 180 degrees might be for better balance?
@@ssoffshore5111 Perhaps...It would seem to be overkill unless one was making really big power or high RPM's. Lyle
@@csvette I agree it's overkill (although maybe not a terrible idea if using a super-charger), other than that balancing is the only other reason I can think of for putting another key in at 180°.
Pinning this does nothing to prevent the failing Harmonic balancer (HB) from walking or failing, so that's pointless and nonsense to say otherwise. And if you really want to avoid a spun HB, pin it. But, that issue is so damn rare that it is much more likely to have been a customer that had their HB replaced and the shopped fucked up in the install (such as reusing the bolt or not following the torque spec) than the balancer randomly deciding it no longer wanted to be press fit.
However, always press-fit if you're supercharging.
Right! Pinning it only keeps the balancer from rotating on the crank snout. I don't say that it saves the balancer from failing, and spinning on the crank is rare on street-driven vehicles...it is more common on cars that are tracked/raced. Point is, if you are already replacing the balancer with a better aftermarket unit, why would you not take the 20 additional minutes to fully secure the balancer to the crank? Lyle
Do you have a part number for the pin kit that will work with the summit HB ?. I found multiple and want to make sure it’s the correct one. Thanks for your time and videos
ICT Billet 551917 - ICT Billet LS Crankshaft Pin Drill Fixture Kits Lyle
@@csvette thanks man. You guys are the greatest
@@treyterbay any time! :)
When using the pin kit with the Summit C2501 (which already has a keyway cut into it) for the LS3, should you drill a 'new' notch in the balancer or try to hit the existing one? Seems counterproductive to RTV the existing keyway and drill a new one somewhere else on the ID.
We always drill a stand-alone holef ro our pins. The keyway in the balancer is ignored, as getting a uniform hole for the pin out of that space is troubelsom, even with the template. Lyle
Old school balancers with timing marks could only be put on one way, can a balancer like this be put on at any degree point? And how do you remove it and replace it with another after it has been pinned?
Kirk, the LS engines are internally balanced, so the position of the harmonic dampener is not specific. We pin them simply to avoid rotation on the crank snout, especially at high rpms. Lyle
Is 2013 427 good engine i like that anniversary edtion us good corvette buy
Will the Harmonic balancer from Summit totally fix the issue? or is there still a chance of it walking/coming out? Also, which in specific is that balancer from Summit, thank you!
Hello Lyle . Question You mentioned that your Mecanic has become very comfortable at replacing these balancers how much hours should GM or a very respected garage charge on the estimate Thank you
David, we charge 5 -6 hours depending on model year. This includes replacing all tensioners, idlers and belts, along with pinning the new balancer to the crank. Lyle
Does anybody know the part number for the balancer from summit ? Mine is starting to wobble a bit and I want to take care of everything before it gets worse ! Also all recommended parts would be awesome thank you!
Power Bond PB1117SS for the balancer--use Gates brand parts for the tensioners,idlers and belts. :) Lyle
I've got to get mine done 2000 c5. Hope $700
Pin kit is necessary With summit Racing dumper as well ?
It isn't "necessary" unless you are spending a lot of time on the track at 8/10ths of the car's ability--it is a very good idea for general safety and peace of mind long-term, regardless of which balancer you choose. Lyle
So will this end the wobble and never need to be replaced again?
Great video ! I’m going to look at a atomic orange c6 2009 with only 29k miles for 30 grand tomorrow , first question is do you think it’s a good deal if the car is in good shape or should I talk them down on the price ? 2nd question is how can I check the harmonic balancer to make sure it’s in hood shape ? Thx 🙏🏾
No way to tell if it is a good deal, as there are som many variables involved in every car. You can see the balancer spinning from the passenger's side of the engine bay--if it is wobbling, make replacement part of the deal. Lyle
Does the pinning stop the forward and rearward creep or just the wear on the shaft to prevent spinning?
It only keeps the balancer from spinning on the crankshaft. The creep is caused by the rubber between the outer ring and the hub deteriorating causing the bond between them to fail.
I should have pinned mine after a cam upgrade, but didn't. Is there room to pin the crank with everything back together? If not, is there an easier way than removing everything again? PS I used the Summit balancer you recommended and it's a great piece. Thanks
By dropping the front cradle a bit, you can absolutely pin the balancer in place. Lyle
@@csvette awesome, thanks
@@YellowVette04 do I need to wait for your video how to do that ????,😉
@@link9alink9a71 I plan on doing it, but who knows when I'll get around to it lol
@@YellowVette04 Iam waiting 😗
Any reason your not recommending the Fluiddampner HB. ....??
I have no experience with it, so I can't say anything about it one way or the other. Lyle
If you pin the hb and have to take it off later on, how hard is it to line up everything and put it back on as it was previously?
It isn't difficult to do--you can use the pin as a guide to get it lined up during the re-install or drill a new hole for the pin. Once you have the new balancer pinned, it is very rare to have to pull it, as the crank seal behind it should be replaced when doing the balancer, and they rarely fail. Lyle
@@csvette thanks for the response!
Question: Does every repair shop use this pin kit? 🤔
Performance shops usually do. We are not a "speed shop", but for the extra 10 minutes involved during the balancer installation we believe it is very inexpensive insurance. :) Lyle
Brent here in Alberta. Do you have a maintenance manual C6. Good ideas- like rear main seal replacement plate rather than just replace seal. Would be nice to have a complete car nice to knows. Thanks
I don't have those ideas all compiled in one file, if that is what you mean. That might not be a bad idea for the future, but at this time I put out the helpful factoids about Corvette care as time and opportunity allow. Thank you the the good idea! Lyle :)
So if I pop my hood and the engine is running and none of the belts are spinning, I rev my motor right? That will loosen them up right? I kid! I kid! :)
Hi, can you let me know why you would replace the harmonic balancer with a new (high performance?) unit especially if the original is still in good condition aftering pinning it? Also, if replacing the HB should I consider an underdrive or overdrive unit. What are the differences and when is it beneficial for each? Thanks!
We pin every balancer we do -- stock or high performance -- because it is an excellent preventative measure that costs less than a decent bottle of red. Once a stock unit begins to wobble, it is only a matter of time before it fails (or worse, eats into your timing cover and oil pan). The high performance units do not have the same design flaw that stock-style ones do, but pinning them is still a best-practice. Over and underdrive pulleys are for racing--extended runs at 5K or above. IF you drive on the street only and just have fun ripping off a few hard pulls from time to time, stick with the stock size unit. Lyle :)
@@csvette Awesome and thank you!!
@@csvette like you said Lyle you are their why not do the pins. One you pin it its done. More than likely you'll never have to do it again. Just my opinion.
you give good information I wish you would supply more of the parts because people like me want to help you because you have helped us.
Omg!!! So u gotta pull the motor to be able to drill it???
No no no! We drop the front cradle a few inches to get the steering rack out of the way, which gives you access (and space) to drill what you need to drill from under the car. Definitely need a lift, tho--not one to do on your back! Lyle
I don't see the kit online anymore.
I can provide the kit as shown--GATES has been spotty on availability, but has been getting better. Call me to order. Lyle 800-886-5064
Hey Lyle.. I'm considering buying a 2008 Corvette with 41000 miles..how long before the harmonic balancer starts to wiggle..driving the car easily?
Gary, there's no way to tell. It's a case by case basis, and visual inspection is the only way to accurately determine current condition. Lyle
Would it be a good idea to do this with a built up 5.3 NA LS engine even if it`s not in a Corvette?
I would pin any balancer that didn't have factory keyway lock. Lyle
GM strikes again. Saved 22 cents on a woodruff key. Made monthly budget. Executives got their bonuses. Wall Street cheered. I thought my '96 was bad. They really do build beautiful garbage. I see them parked in yards everywhere. Permanently.
used to be a huge gm fan because of their styling. still am of their older cars. bought an ecoboost mustang because gm has been disappointing lately. and the s550 mustangs look so dang good to me. never ever thought I'd own a mustang. wanna get a c5 or c6 vette. maybe.
Can’t I just pin my current good balancer and be done with it?
I would only recommend doing that if you already had a non-OEM improved version of the balancer on the car. Otherwise, you would be doing the job twice when the OEM balancer failed in the future. Lyle
Harmonic balancer should be pinned. So how exactly do you do that? tear apart the engine, remove crankshaft, take crankshaft to a machine shop, then put it all back together again? Probably expensive as hell, and then you have to lose piece of mind wondering if some mistakes were made putting it all back together. If it aint broke, dont fix it! a new balancer is so tightly press fitted, and if you follow the GM repair manual instructions you should probably be just fine. I am about to do mine soon. Just gathering special tools and new bolt, doing my research. Also figuring plans a, b, and c for any road blocks.
Mark, pinning the balancer using the kit I mention in the video requires about 40 minutes and zero additional disassembly of anything. Lyle
Does this happen on an LS 3 engine, I have a 2008 🙏
Yes, it occurs on all LS engines through 2013. Lyle
Where to buy the pin kit and bal
What to do when battery is dead c6 automatic
how many hours of labor to do the job?
Do you need to pin the summit harmonic balancer? And how about a video of the harmonic balancer death wobble so we can see what it looks like on the car.... or is this something you just cant miss couse it's so obvious.
Bingo. You can clearly see the unit from the RH side of the car, and the wobble (if present) is obvious. Lyle
Do you still pin the after market harmonic balancer also when replaced. If my time comes for this it wont be OEM
Have a question. I replaced the HB with a Summitracing replacement. Now the specs for mine calls for torqueing with the old bolt to 240 LBS, then remove, install the new bolt torque to 37 LBS then torque 140 degrees if you have a J-36660-A tool. It then goes on to say if you don’t have the tool, tighten the new damper bolt to 75 lb. Now my damper has a keyway. This is my question. Do i have to torque the bolt 145 degrees if I pin my crank? It appears because the damper has a keyway you don’t need to tighten it the additional 140 degrees, but if there is no pin or keyway then the additional 140 degrees would be required to keep it from slipping. Your thoughts.
I would still do the full procedure as proscribed--it can't hurt a thing, so execute the follow-through. Lyle (Sorry for the delay in responding--missed this comment earlier) Lyle
One word.....use the ARP bolt !!!!
Need the pin even with the performace harmonic balancer, right?
It is good insurance for any LS engine, but necessary for anything that will see track duty. Lyle
Was thinking about buying a 2013 but now rethinking it . Maybe the new Nissan Z is a more reliable choice .
Only 200 dollar balancer i can find on summit is a bracket racer.
If I install the summit racing performance balancer do I have to pin it too or is it just for the stock ls1 balancer?
You don't have to pin either of them, we do it as a precaution against rotation on the crank snout. Lyle
someone may have already asked this, but... if my OEM harmonic balancer is not wobbling, can I just pin it rather than buying a new one?
Hi Doug! Pinning the balancer won't stop it from deteriorating and wobbling in the future. It stops the balancer from rotating on the snout of the crank. If yours isn't wobbling, just check it once a month to make sure it doesn't start wobbling. When the time comes to replace it, THEN pin it. Lyle :)
Do you recommend pinning the stock harmonic balancer ?
I don't recommend doing aything with the stock balancer other than replacing it...flawed design and ticking time bomb, that it is... Lyle
What are your thoughts on the ATI balancer?
Excellent piece. Expensive. Really only worthwhile if you have a supercharger or spend a good amount of time on a track. For daily driver cars, OEM-type units are perfectly fine. Lyle
@@csvette yeah but why buy a part that's prone to failure?
@@rrf6747 I recommend the Power Bond PB1117SS from Summit racing---a very good compromise between stock units an the ATI. It has no rubber bonding strip to fail and costs over a hundred bucks less than the ATI. Lyle
@@csvette dont care about the cost just want one that will last and not fail my opinion on parts like this is they should last the lifetime of the engine or car
@@csvette Lyle, the summit site says that this damper has a keyway cut in it, do you guys try to fill that, or just install with it open and not worry about it? I don't understand why they don't offer this damper without a keyway when it's going on an LS crank, are they assuming everyone is going to use an aftermarket crank?
My 2005 vette i just lost power steering and charging... Checked under hood with it off and all seem good.. Then i found crank pully bolt finger loose, so im assuming it spun.... Was told on a forum that i need crank now ... But i still gotta tear it apart in my driveway.. Im assuming crank is alot harded and i just need to pin new balancer to crank.... Have you seen any that have spun and need a crank ? Mine is visually still on all the way, at least it looks like it is.
Those cranks are very hard, and if it only happened for a minute or two, you should be okay. Just clean up the crank really well and replace the balancer.
@@csvette Got the rack out today... Not to bad of a job ... My question is when my pin kit arrives is there room to get bit/drill up in there to do it... seems tight without removing fan assembly
@@TheC5corvette Remove fan assembly to get more room--not difficult. Lyle
Why GM? No woodruff key!
Has anyone ever considered pinning through the edge of the main bolt to keep it from backing out? The bolt backing out is the common problem, so why not lock it in place once it's torqued to the proper specs.
Would it be a good idea to buy a 2003 C5 with 9800 miles?
All depends on the car itself--probably in great shape, but needs to be verified on a lift by someone who knows what they are looking at. Lyle
Hey would I need to do this if I use the ATI harmonic balancer ?
If you rev out the engine regularly--ie track time--pinning the balancer to the crank is still a good idea. The ATI will never come apart like the OEM item does, but it can still rotate on the crank snout. IT takes about 20 minutes to do while replacing the balancer, and makes a great deal of sense. Lyle
@@csvette thank you
What’s the labor cost to replace these
4 to 5 hours depending on what else you are doing. Lyle