A guy could, in this case, since it’s a hobby bike and not a competition machine, take a small, cleanup cut in the cylinders, then sleeve them for A7 pistons. A7s came with early and late bores of 62 and 66 mm vs. the 70 of the A10. This would restore the strength of the barrels at the expense of cubic capacity. $0.02😉
A guy would need to look at rod length and pin height to be sure, since the A7 stroke is shorter for both bores. With a shop like yours, work-arounds can be found, is my guess.
From what I can gather, the early engines had an 82 mm stroke. The A10 is 84. It may be possible to use the stock A10 crank and rods by shimming or decking the block by 40 thousandths, depending on the pin height.
Great repair. I like the use of dye penetrant. But the method you are using is the colour contrast red liquid penetrant method which requires white light at a minimum of 500lux for inspection. UV light is used for fluorescent penetrant...the green stuff. Only saying because I'm tig welder and NDT weld inspector. Post machining / honing dye pen inspection is a good idea. All the best.
Thanks for watching and commenting. The penetrant I use is red for visible light testing, and the pink stuff I used there was for UV, it's old though, I had it when I was in my twenties 🤔
Ade, looking at standard cylinder liners for the BSA A10 barrels from Westwood are part no. L2148 - 69.99mm x 73.08mm x 149.23mm and part no. L5470 - 70.0mm x 73.5mm x 177.8mm. I measured the OD of the spigots on my barrels as 78mm. Westwood makes a liner part no. WCL 13DFL - 69.0mm X 79.0mm X 228.6mm. Using that liner would it be possible to machine it to 73 or 73.5mm and leaving the 79mm OD x the length A10 spigot to form a new spigot. Then bore the barrel to suit the liner, machining off the damage spigot flush with the flange or slightly counterbored. Finally, installing the liner from the bottom, cosmetically restoring the spigot. Whether this would work mechanically, I am not sure?
Hi Ade, I have had some barrels repaired in a similar manner, we drilled the end of the cracks and then welded up using some special cast iron repair rods , not sure what composition exactly. We grooved the outside of the spigot and only welded outside, the bores were then taken out to +40. I didnt hear anything about additional cracking but a lot of heat was put in before welding up. I wouldn't trust the fix in a Rocket spec engine but we will see how it gets on. Pictures on request! Excellent video - thank you.
A very interesting watch mate, I can imagine the frustration when more cracks started appearing. A lot of things are worth a shot with these old bikes, given your care and consideration I think this is one of them!
Thanks for watching Will, good job we do what we do us purveyors of olde shite and detritus or none of this wonderful engineering, motorcycle, and automotive history would have survived.
Hi Ade, I'm like you, not the best at TIG. So when i get something to do that's past my skill level at TIG, I prep it as much as possible and pop over to the welding shop. One of the guys there does it in the evening before heading home and it works out quite cheap and i know that it's going to work well. Re A7 thick flange barrels. They are like hen's teeth. BSA made some for their A7ss racers in the USA in 1964. Part Number 671310. They were never available to anybody else. Been looking for 20 years. 😒 Keep the vids coming there good and it's nice to see A7 and A10 engineering work done.
The US racing rules in the 50's and 60's allowed 500 cc overhead valve singles and twins and 750 cc sidevalve engines. This was to favor the Harley-Davidson "KR" V-twin engines which, by virtue of their torque characteristics, were very good in the US-style "flat track" (dirt track) races at the time. Thus, there was lots of "hot stuff" for the 500 cc British twins at the time which was considered superfluous in other markets. Too bad, because there was some good gear going.
Great video Ade. We learn a lot from your adventures into the trickier end of restoration. I wonder if BSA increased to wall thickness of the cylinders when they introduced the thick flange barrel? I believe that the thin ones cracked regularly, ofen above the flange.
I'll try and find a thick flange barrel to measure, it would have made sense to, maybe thick flange barrels would then be what the liners are aimed at, great thought, many thanks 👍🏼
Ade, great video. I don't think it's bad at all because you stop drilled it and normalised the stresses before brazing. As you say, not the highest stressed part of the barrel and out of the ring land. Worth a go I think and very interesting to watch. If your new barrel needs a fin welding back on, I can recommend a video that shows you how not to do it! Best wishes, Dean.
Extremely well done in my opinion. I have no experience of tig brazing let alone tig brazing cast iron, before you even get to the vagaries caused by that crack position. It is a pleasure to watch you work. Although I don't work on motorcycles (as you know well, my brother does) I learn a huge amount from you about general technique. I think this film you have put up today is going to become reference material for anyone doing similar. As you also know, Dean could not tig the fins on the bantam cylinder, he ended up mig welding them. Tig kept cracking on cooling, starting immediately on the post gas phase. Much like you saw. I have got a reel of mig brazing wire (bronze of some sort I think). Do you think mig would have worked better on your application - leaving aside the access issues? I would value your opinion on that and I know Dean would too. Great video as always. I am very grateful to see you posting again. You are in Staffs aren't you? I am in Derbyshire currently, visiting my daughter!
Thanks for your thoughts Carl, I didn't even know mig brazing wire was available, but never looked tbh, I'll look into that one. I'm on the Derbyshire border actually but it depends which end of the county you are? Burton on Trent, if you're close call in 😉
@@AGEngineering You are more than welcome for the comments. I am no expert, but I have tried a little bit of mig brazing and my gut feeling is the heat input is not as intense as with tig. I may well be completely wrong on that score. Thank you very much for your kind invitation, I will get your details from Dean and drop you a text message to arrange something if that is OK with you?
Hello Ade. Why do we prat around with these old bikes? Although there might be a problem with distortion I think that I would have gas bronzed it to get a more even heating around the crack. But as long as it works alternative methods are purely academic.
I tend to agree, with a better set up, oxy acetylene and good pre heat with slow cooling might be better but I've never had great success with thin cast iron, been okay with motor mounts, manifold lug etc.
I had a an A65 engine blow to pieces in the early 1980's. The gudgeon pin tore the skirt off the bottom of one barrel. The engineer I took it to said don't worry I'll remove them both, the re-sleeve will be ok on its own. But that was a shorter stroking engine than the A10, so who knows perhaps you could dispense with that lower section of both cylinders, and forget about doing any welding.
Thanks for sharing your story. That would have been my preferred way of fixing, but it would leave less than 1/8" wall thickness on the remaining barrel, so even that is risky.
5 - 4 mm wall thickness? That’s loads! Have you seen the thickness in the same area on a 745 commando when it’s on a 60 thou rebore? It’s around a bit over 1 mm. That’s why the 850s used a different casting for the cylinders with that area filled in and long through cap head bolts from counter bores in the cylinder to head joint, I’ve had cylinders separate many years ago on my old 750 commando when thrashing my mate on his GS750 Suzuki, that was many years ago, I sold that commando as I couldn’t get the camshaft to last more than a few thousand miles, switched over 35 years ago to a Jota which I still own, my old commando has been around the block and was rescued by a mate from a hedge in someone’s back garden! I’m building an A10 at the moment, it’s going to be a big off road monster, for events like Red Marley hill climb, I’m sick of all these Triumph twins being used off road 😂, I’ve junked the cast iron hubs, wheels etc as they weighed with tyres approx 18 kgs each, so I am using old Honda scramble wheels with a twin leader drum on the front and a drum braked scrambler Honda rear wheel. With a set of Paioli forks. I’m doing a similar job to you on the oil pump but have decided I shall make a new pump using some of the oil routing that Norton use on their twins, an end feed to the crank I’m also going to use twin rollers on the crank in a similar way to the post combat commando engine, a pair of NJ306E M1 superblends, there’s not a huge amount of material in the cases so I shall make some bosses to house the bigger mains and weld them to the cases. I’m fortunate in having my own engineering company, next time you’re near Monmouth Ade, message me and I’ll put the kettle in! Your A10 work has really inspired me to get this bike finished, but this engine of mine needs some serious attention! Keep up with the great content Ade
I love these interesting accounts of others experiences. It would be interesting trying proper mains both sides, would you be into the oil pump mounting boss though? Glad to have inspired, I need some of that again along with time at present. I've been changing jobs a bit, 3 different places in the last 3 years, so I've had to concentrate on those. I think I've found my ideal place now to take me to retirement, it's only 10 minutes from home and it's a bit old fashioned with some reasonable machine tools I'm sorting out a bit plus getting tooling together. My day job is multi skilled maintenance, the last couple of jobs have been more electrical, so glad to have a good mix with this one. I'll certainly you up on a visit if I'm in the area. All the best, Ade.
Ayup Ade, I'm just imagining the noises that were coming from the repair, bet you were waiting for the twang! Looks like internal casting stresses eventually pinged open, maybe like you say when it has been over bored, it looked very springy.
May I suggest heating the cylinder in an over first then using an oxy-acetylene torch, brass braze the crack with flux covered brass rod. This always works well for me.
Is it not possible to machine the split area down to the flange and machine a bespoke stepped sleeve and shrink it in to bring it back to nominal size?
A guy could, in this case, since it’s a hobby bike and not a competition machine, take a small, cleanup cut in the cylinders, then sleeve them for A7 pistons. A7s came with early and late bores of 62 and 66 mm vs. the 70 of the A10. This would restore the strength of the barrels at the expense of cubic capacity. $0.02😉
Really interesting thought, nice one, top of the pinned class👍🏼. Thanks for watching and commenting, Ade
A guy would need to look at rod length and pin height to be sure, since the A7 stroke is shorter for both bores. With a shop like yours, work-arounds can be found, is my guess.
From what I can gather, the early engines had an 82 mm stroke. The A10 is 84. It may be possible to use the stock A10 crank and rods by shimming or decking the block by 40 thousandths, depending on the pin height.
I always appreciate your deliberate and methodical approach to any repairs.
Many thanks for watching and commenting
Great repair. I like the use of dye penetrant. But the method you are using is the colour contrast red liquid penetrant method which requires white light at a minimum of 500lux for inspection. UV light is used for fluorescent penetrant...the green stuff. Only saying because I'm tig welder and NDT weld inspector. Post machining / honing dye pen inspection is a good idea. All the best.
Thanks for watching and commenting. The penetrant I use is red for visible light testing, and the pink stuff I used there was for UV, it's old though, I had it when I was in my twenties 🤔
Ade, looking at standard cylinder liners for the BSA A10 barrels from Westwood are part no. L2148 - 69.99mm x 73.08mm x 149.23mm and part no. L5470 - 70.0mm x 73.5mm x 177.8mm. I measured the OD of the spigots on my barrels as 78mm. Westwood makes a liner part no. WCL 13DFL - 69.0mm X 79.0mm X 228.6mm. Using that liner would it be possible to machine it to 73 or 73.5mm and leaving the 79mm OD x the length A10 spigot to form a new spigot. Then bore the barrel to suit the liner, machining off the damage spigot flush with the flange or slightly counterbored. Finally, installing the liner from the bottom, cosmetically restoring the spigot. Whether this would work mechanically, I am not sure?
Thanks for this great info, I shall take a look into it, best wishes, Ade
WCL 13DFL is on the list of Spun Cast iron liners, as L2148 and L5470 are not i suppose they are Spun ductile cast iron so 3 times stronger.
Hi Ade, I have had some barrels repaired in a similar manner, we drilled the end of the cracks and then welded up using some special cast iron repair rods , not sure what composition exactly. We grooved the outside of the spigot and only welded outside, the bores were then taken out to +40. I didnt hear anything about additional cracking but a lot of heat was put in before welding up. I wouldn't trust the fix in a Rocket spec engine but we will see how it gets on. Pictures on request! Excellent video - thank you.
Great information thanks, love to see some pictures cheers, adegwilliam@gmail.com many thanks for watching and commenting, Ade
A very interesting watch mate, I can imagine the frustration when more cracks started appearing. A lot of things are worth a shot with these old bikes, given your care and consideration I think this is one of them!
Thanks for watching Will, good job we do what we do us purveyors of olde shite and detritus or none of this wonderful engineering, motorcycle, and automotive history would have survived.
Hi Ade, I'm like you, not the best at TIG. So when i get something to do that's past my skill level at TIG, I prep it as much as possible and pop over to the welding shop. One of the guys there does it in the evening before heading home and it works out quite cheap and i know that it's going to work well. Re A7 thick flange barrels. They are like hen's teeth. BSA made some for their A7ss racers in the USA in 1964. Part Number 671310. They were never available to anybody else. Been looking for 20 years. 😒 Keep the vids coming there good and it's nice to see A7 and A10 engineering work done.
Many thanks for your great comments and watching the channel, best wishes, Ade
The US racing rules in the 50's and 60's allowed 500 cc overhead valve singles and twins and 750 cc sidevalve engines. This was to favor the Harley-Davidson "KR" V-twin engines which, by virtue of their torque characteristics, were very good in the US-style "flat track" (dirt track) races at the time. Thus, there was lots of "hot stuff" for the 500 cc British twins at the time which was considered superfluous in other markets. Too bad, because there was some good gear going.
Had a simpler crack on my A10 barrels. Had it spray welded which so far seems very successful.
Great video Ade. We learn a lot from your adventures into the trickier end of restoration. I wonder if BSA increased to wall thickness of the cylinders when they introduced the thick flange barrel? I believe that the thin ones cracked regularly, ofen above the flange.
I'll try and find a thick flange barrel to measure, it would have made sense to, maybe thick flange barrels would then be what the liners are aimed at, great thought, many thanks 👍🏼
Ade, great video. I don't think it's bad at all because you stop drilled it and normalised the stresses before brazing. As you say, not the highest stressed part of the barrel and out of the ring land. Worth a go I think and very interesting to watch. If your new barrel needs a fin welding back on, I can recommend a video that shows you how not to do it!
Best wishes, Dean.
I never thought when you migged the fins that I have got mig brazing wire. Could be worth a bit of experimentation?
@@carlwilson1772 could be! It....could .....Work!!!
Extremely well done in my opinion. I have no experience of tig brazing let alone tig brazing cast iron, before you even get to the vagaries caused by that crack position.
It is a pleasure to watch you work. Although I don't work on motorcycles (as you know well, my brother does) I learn a huge amount from you about general technique. I think this film you have put up today is going to become reference material for anyone doing similar. As you also know, Dean could not tig the fins on the bantam cylinder, he ended up mig welding them. Tig kept cracking on cooling, starting immediately on the post gas phase. Much like you saw. I have got a reel of mig brazing wire (bronze of some sort I think). Do you think mig would have worked better on your application - leaving aside the access issues? I would value your opinion on that and I know Dean would too. Great video as always. I am very grateful to see you posting again. You are in Staffs aren't you? I am in Derbyshire currently, visiting my daughter!
Thanks for your thoughts Carl, I didn't even know mig brazing wire was available, but never looked tbh, I'll look into that one. I'm on the Derbyshire border actually but it depends which end of the county you are? Burton on Trent, if you're close call in 😉
@@AGEngineering You are more than welcome for the comments. I am no expert, but I have tried a little bit of mig brazing and my gut feeling is the heat input is not as intense as with tig. I may well be completely wrong on that score. Thank you very much for your kind invitation, I will get your details from Dean and drop you a text message to arrange something if that is OK with you?
Hello Ade. Why do we prat around with these old bikes? Although there might be a problem with distortion I think that I would have gas bronzed it to get a more even heating around the crack. But as long as it works alternative methods are purely academic.
I tend to agree, with a better set up, oxy acetylene and good pre heat with slow cooling might be better but I've never had great success with thin cast iron, been okay with motor mounts, manifold lug etc.
I had a an A65 engine blow to pieces in the early 1980's. The gudgeon pin tore the skirt off the bottom of one barrel. The engineer I took it to said don't worry I'll remove them both, the re-sleeve will be ok on its own. But that was a shorter stroking engine than the A10, so who knows perhaps you could dispense with that lower section of both cylinders, and forget about doing any welding.
Thanks for sharing your story. That would have been my preferred way of fixing, but it would leave less than 1/8" wall thickness on the remaining barrel, so even that is risky.
don good job
5 - 4 mm wall thickness? That’s loads! Have you seen the thickness in the same area on a 745 commando when it’s on a 60 thou rebore? It’s around a bit over 1 mm. That’s why the 850s used a different casting for the cylinders with that area filled in and long through cap head bolts from counter bores in the cylinder to head joint, I’ve had cylinders separate many years ago on my old 750 commando when thrashing my mate on his GS750 Suzuki, that was many years ago, I sold that commando as I couldn’t get the camshaft to last more than a few thousand miles, switched over 35 years ago to a Jota which I still own, my old commando has been around the block and was rescued by a mate from a hedge in someone’s back garden!
I’m building an A10 at the moment, it’s going to be a big off road monster, for events like Red Marley hill climb, I’m sick of all these Triumph twins being used off road 😂, I’ve junked the cast iron hubs, wheels etc as they weighed with tyres approx 18 kgs each, so I am using old Honda scramble wheels with a twin leader drum on the front and a drum braked scrambler Honda rear wheel. With a set of Paioli forks. I’m doing a similar job to you on the oil pump but have decided I shall make a new pump using some of the oil routing that Norton use on their twins, an end feed to the crank I’m also going to use twin rollers on the crank in a similar way to the post combat commando engine, a pair of NJ306E M1 superblends, there’s not a huge amount of material in the cases so I shall make some bosses to house the bigger mains and weld them to the cases. I’m fortunate in having my own engineering company, next time you’re near Monmouth Ade, message me and I’ll put the kettle in! Your A10 work has really inspired me to get this bike finished, but this engine of mine needs some serious attention! Keep up with the great content Ade
I love these interesting accounts of others experiences. It would be interesting trying proper mains both sides, would you be into the oil pump mounting boss though? Glad to have inspired, I need some of that again along with time at present. I've been changing jobs a bit, 3 different places in the last 3 years, so I've had to concentrate on those. I think I've found my ideal place now to take me to retirement, it's only 10 minutes from home and it's a bit old fashioned with some reasonable machine tools I'm sorting out a bit plus getting tooling together. My day job is multi skilled maintenance, the last couple of jobs have been more electrical, so glad to have a good mix with this one. I'll certainly you up on a visit if I'm in the area. All the best, Ade.
Ayup Ade, I'm just imagining the noises that were coming from the repair, bet you were waiting for the twang! Looks like internal casting stresses eventually pinged open, maybe like you say when it has been over bored, it looked very springy.
It was very sprung out, hopefully the heating from welding will have set the piece back in place with the braze holding it
Good try Ade. Looks blooming difficult TBH.
It was, difficult material, difficult area to access, thanks for following Luke, all the best.
May I suggest heating the cylinder in an over first then using an oxy-acetylene torch, brass braze the crack with flux covered brass rod. This always works well for me.
I'd love oxy-acetylene 😉
Is it not possible to machine the split area down to the flange and machine a bespoke stepped sleeve and shrink it in to bring it back to nominal size?
I'd also be tempted to use Unity Flux and oxy acetylene
10 out of 10 for just having a go really nothing to lose by trying a man after my own heart l hate to put anything in the bin
you attempted the near impossible Ade with not a bad outcome.
I'd lost nothing by trying was my thoughts, cheers for commenting 👍🏼
I've not seen a barrel defect like that, would that have occurred when the engine was running?
I have no idea but it is more common when they have been rebored an the wall is thin it seems
This happens when a seized piston is hammered down the bore by an idiot, dont ask me how i know.
is that silcon bronze you are tigging?
Thanks for watching, explanation in the video 👍🏼
I don't know if you watch this guy but quite interesting and useful: th-cam.com/video/eJfo06M-NW8/w-d-xo.html
Ade what tig settings are you using?
DC, foot pedal control set to max 99 amps, short pre and post flow, normal polarity.
You'd be a fool to use this, risking the crank rods cases etc too risky.
You mirror the thoughts of many I'm sure, thanks for taking the time to comment, best wishes, Ade