Very educational! I'm trans myself, and this is very well informed/detailed; I always wondered about how gender diverse people may have lived centuries ago in medieval Europe. Nuance is important with complex topics like human identity; a lot of people in the comments seem to be allergic to it. And, yeah; I'm a Tolkien fan, and I'll never see the Eye Of Sauron the same way again...
I love your nuanced take on this. Yes it's difficult to find transpeople in history partly because trans just like gay and straight or modern constructions. People historically don't fit well within modern categories. But there is a great deal of evidence as you showed that gender is fluid and ideals change. People have been playing with gender since the stone age.
The one point I would make is survivorship bias and drawing conclusions from incomplete data. Our understanding of history is colored by the information that survived, and it's possible or even probable that evidence of transgender individuals has been destroyed, suppressed, or never written down in the first place out of fear or shame.
A German physician wrote a book called The Third Gender in the 1920s. That is the oldest concept of what we nowadays consider to be transgender. The term itself is from 1908.
That’s a difficult topic for a video (or a book). Just to give an example why it’s difficult: He might have liked a special dish we have no idea about. Or he liked to listen to particular music, but never told anyone. The picture of his personal interests will always be incomplete. But you (as a viewer) want the feeling you know him on a personal level after watching the video. Which you will not. So all I can promise is to try to make a video, which allows you to know him a little better than before.
This is a load of twaddle. You don't believe it happened because you cannot find it written down anywhere? At a time when the vast majority of things were NOT written down? And books were much more rare? And it was six or seven centuries ago? There is also the distinct possibility that no one thought this personal detail was particularly worthy of attention.
I say repeatedly that I can’t prove it. And you actually made my point here: there is so little written and books were very rare. People, who might be transgender in our times, had no access to information to understand what happened with them. One time I literally say plausible, but not provable. I present several cases of people transitioning in the Middle Ages and embracing their new gender identity. In two out of 4 cases it wasn’t their idea. In one of the other cases it was a work of fiction. And Marina states a different reason for her wish to transition than wanting to live as a man. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to ignore that Joan of Arc literally stated her gender identity several times, cause she wore armor. Turn it around and imagine she said she would be a man, but people ignore this, cause she wore a dress several times. There was no consciousness for the possibility of a transgender identity you can find in the sources. There were cases of people wanting to live with a different gender, but they had no understanding why.
@HistoryDocumentary150 so, how do any of these cases then qualify to support a case either for or against transgenderism in the middle ages? Or are your examples being chosen by some outside factor? I really don't understand your argument I guess. As for "not being able to understand," well, they had the same brain you do. They weren't stupid. They probably wouldn't have explained it in the same language you do, but to say they had no understanding is ludicrous. Even hunter/gatherer societies (the plains peoples of the americas come to mind) have "slots" for folks who are "different". As long as you do your work and don't drag the society down a lot can be ignored.
St Joan of Arc dressed as s man as a protection and because she felt that she would be taken more seriously byauthorities. Were thei gays in the Middle Ages yes.Also, in Shakespeare,s day, men often took the woman,s role at times im plays.
I accept them as they aren't bothering me, my family, or my friends. If it's 2 consensual adults, why are we ostracizing them or bashing them?? You never know what caused this person to become trans.
@@jamellfoster6029 I believe the creator of the world has more phantasy, ideas and creativity than any human. So don't presume that he doesn't love them just the way they are - HE made them.
@insulanerin7601 I know God loves them. He doesn't agree per se with their lifestyle. God made us what He wanted us to be. But I know He still loves them as they are His People as well. I have transgender friends and I accept them for who they are. My 17 year old son on the other hand is (unfortunately) transphobic & homophobic. This is sad as he's missing out on knowing & befriending nice people.
In spite of the progressive sounding disclaimer, this video seems like it might be biased against trans persons. The analysis of historical examples takes the most conservative approach possible.
I don't think that terms like conservative or progressive are fitting descriptions. We have to understand people out of their time. These people had no idea that there would be the concept of transgender in the future. They had no ressources to learn about these questions. I can only try describe their situation as good as I can learn about it in the primary sources. And I think it is necessary to talk about all possibilities. I say that Marina might have been a monk to live as a man. But that is not why I can see in the sources. Here in a comment, where I can just write my opinion and are not bound to sources, let me say it like this: I feel terrible sorry for those people. They suffered immensly and had no idea why or what they could do about it. I imagine it must be so much worse, if you are completely in the dark and don't have the ressources we have to learn and understand about it.
Joan of Arc never said she was a man. Others vilified her for wearing men's clothing. Nothing to do with "transgender".
Very educational! I'm trans myself, and this is very well informed/detailed; I always wondered about how gender diverse people may have lived centuries ago in medieval Europe. Nuance is important with complex topics like human identity; a lot of people in the comments seem to be allergic to it. And, yeah; I'm a Tolkien fan, and I'll never see the Eye Of Sauron the same way again...
I love your nuanced take on this. Yes it's difficult to find transpeople in history partly because trans just like gay and straight or modern constructions. People historically don't fit well within modern categories. But there is a great deal of evidence as you showed that gender is fluid and ideals change. People have been playing with gender since the stone age.
The one point I would make is survivorship bias and drawing conclusions from incomplete data. Our understanding of history is colored by the information that survived, and it's possible or even probable that evidence of transgender individuals has been destroyed, suppressed, or never written down in the first place out of fear or shame.
yes, this is a really good point I agree with completely.
I wonder what Joan of Arc would have made of Taylor Swift? I'm sure she would have been a fan!
I thought that transgender is a modern concept, 😅
A German physician wrote a book called The Third Gender in the 1920s. That is the oldest concept of what we nowadays consider to be transgender. The term itself is from 1908.
@HistoryDocumentary150 A special request for you , can you make a video on personal intrest, habits , and how Richard was in his personal life.
That’s a difficult topic for a video (or a book). Just to give an example why it’s difficult: He might have liked a special dish we have no idea about. Or he liked to listen to particular music, but never told anyone. The picture of his personal interests will always be incomplete.
But you (as a viewer) want the feeling you know him on a personal level after watching the video. Which you will not. So all I can promise is to try to make a video, which allows you to know him a little better than before.
@@Lemmy-Historian Thank you so much 😍
This is a load of twaddle. You don't believe it happened because you cannot find it written down anywhere? At a time when the vast majority of things were NOT written down? And books were much more rare? And it was six or seven centuries ago? There is also the distinct possibility that no one thought this personal detail was particularly worthy of attention.
I say repeatedly that I can’t prove it. And you actually made my point here: there is so little written and books were very rare. People, who might be transgender in our times, had no access to information to understand what happened with them. One time I literally say plausible, but not provable.
I present several cases of people transitioning in the Middle Ages and embracing their new gender identity. In two out of 4 cases it wasn’t their idea. In one of the other cases it was a work of fiction. And Marina states a different reason for her wish to transition than wanting to live as a man. And I don’t think it’s reasonable to ignore that Joan of Arc literally stated her gender identity several times, cause she wore armor. Turn it around and imagine she said she would be a man, but people ignore this, cause she wore a dress several times.
There was no consciousness for the possibility of a transgender identity you can find in the sources. There were cases of people wanting to live with a different gender, but they had no understanding why.
@HistoryDocumentary150 so, how do any of these cases then qualify to support a case either for or against transgenderism in the middle ages? Or are your examples being chosen by some outside factor? I really don't understand your argument I guess. As for "not being able to understand," well, they had the same brain you do. They weren't stupid. They probably wouldn't have explained it in the same language you do, but to say they had no understanding is ludicrous. Even hunter/gatherer societies (the plains peoples of the americas come to mind) have "slots" for folks who are "different". As long as you do your work and don't drag the society down a lot can be ignored.
St Joan of Arc dressed as s man as a protection and because she felt that she would be taken more seriously byauthorities. Were thei gays in the Middle Ages yes.Also, in Shakespeare,s day, men often took the woman,s role at times im plays.
Wonderful to laugh about!
Just as wrong then as it is now
I accept them as they aren't bothering me, my family, or my friends. If it's 2 consensual adults, why are we ostracizing them or bashing them?? You never know what caused this person to become trans.
Being transgender is totally fine. Making an ideology of it and lying about history is not.
@@insulanerin7601 it's their life & their choice between them & God.
@@jamellfoster6029 I believe the creator of the world has more phantasy, ideas and creativity than any human. So don't presume that he doesn't love them just the way they are - HE made them.
@insulanerin7601 I know God loves them. He doesn't agree per se with their lifestyle. God made us what He wanted us to be. But I know He still loves them as they are His People as well. I have transgender friends and I accept them for who they are. My 17 year old son on the other hand is (unfortunately) transphobic & homophobic. This is sad as he's missing out on knowing & befriending nice people.
In spite of the progressive sounding disclaimer, this video seems like it might be biased against trans persons.
The analysis of historical examples takes the most conservative approach possible.
I'd say it takes the least conservative approach.... Medieval times werent really Gender neutral, it was very brutal and unaccepting
I don't think that terms like conservative or progressive are fitting descriptions. We have to understand people out of their time. These people had no idea that there would be the concept of transgender in the future. They had no ressources to learn about these questions. I can only try describe their situation as good as I can learn about it in the primary sources. And I think it is necessary to talk about all possibilities. I say that Marina might have been a monk to live as a man. But that is not why I can see in the sources.
Here in a comment, where I can just write my opinion and are not bound to sources, let me say it like this: I feel terrible sorry for those people. They suffered immensly and had no idea why or what they could do about it. I imagine it must be so much worse, if you are completely in the dark and don't have the ressources we have to learn and understand about it.
@@oliv73911so sad but true.
@HistoryDocumentary150 you did a great job.