0:40 Matt, you might be forgetting that Grosjean had a lap 1 collision in almost every race prior to that. The stewards had essentially had enough of it by Spa, especially when it almost led to Alonso getting decapitated by a front wing going over his cockpit.
I was thinking the same. It's why he ended up with a year out of F1, at least IMHO. His constant carelessness and apparent lack of situational awareness got under many drivers' and teams' skins to the point where his team had no option but to make him sit out a year (did he go back to GP2? It's such a long time ago I have forgotten). There was that other bit of idiocy in Spa when he took out both Hamilton and Button in one go! Tbh, it was his continued lack of situational awareness which ended up nearly killing him in Bahrain, because he was the one who turned into Kvyat, not the other way around. It's a bloody miracle that he - and others - survived his tenure in F1. I'm sure he's a lovely guy, but I found him hard to take to because of his attitude towards the other drivers. Obviously I wasn't anything other than horrified by his accident and I desperately wished for him to be okay, but even then after seeing the replay, I could only shake my head and not be too surprised. The biggest shock was what happened to the car!
@@y_fam_goeglyd it’s funny how you have no clue, admit that you have no clue, but still invent weird theories Grosjean went back to GP2 before that Spa incident, and it was simply because he wasn’t deserving his seat in F1
I think separating the penalties points for the infringement grade, would make much more sense. Let's say impeding drivers on track or speeding in the pitlane gets you grade one penalty points. If you have x grade one points or above, you will receive a 3-grid penalty. For harsher incidents like crashes, you will receive grade two penalty points, where you will get a race ban for x grade two points. This can even be expanded so grade one points would result in 5- or 10-grid penalties, whenever the points exceed the first penalty
@@hexostatus4658 Yes, if there is a party clearly at fault or if this party is predominantly at fault. The amount of points given may differ based on the situation and the cause
@@yourDecisi0n yea, like crashes from driver error deserve a leeway from penalty points, like in Saudi arabia Qualifying this year, and no points for incidents that are no fault of the driver’s own.
Speeding in the pitlane is arguably more dangerous than causing a turn 1 crash. When was the last time a driver was seriously injured from a car on car collision and then think about what can happen when an F2 type car drives into your shins at nearly 100 kph.
@@DaveWraptastic I don't think that's the case though, the pitlane is still part of an active race track, therefore should be handled as such. Also, if you "speed" through the pitlane it's only at the entry. Anyways, you could give more points for a greater infringements of course and some potential dangerous 'minor' infringements could get you points in grade two
For me, procedural stuff (like practice starts in the wrong spot) or gaining an advantage (track limits & pit entry white lines) should be time penalties only, increasing up to a DSQ for >30 seconds worth in a single race. Keep the penalty points for safety issues such as speeding in the pit lane, not respecting yellow flags and forcing drivers off the track/causing collisions, or braking at unexpected times. That way you cut out the risk of a ban for silly things and you can then point to safety as a catch all argument. Maybe allow points to be given out if there's evidence of bringing the sport into disrepute (e.g. Perez blocking LeClerc in Q1 explicitly to help Max, or another Singapore 2008). But they'd be exceptional circumstances so very rare.
They should just make a consistent set of penalty points which will be applied automatically. Then there can be no bias, no indecision as everything will go by their rules of handing out penalty points. E.g. If these are the only way you can get penalty points: 1 penalty point for speeding in pit lane (less than 10km/h over) 2 penalty points for excessively speeding in the pit lane (10km/h +) 1 penalty point for blocking a driver on a hot lap. 1 penalty point for excessive and/or dangerous weaving. 2 penalty points for purposely slowing cars down behind in a SC, VSC or pit lane window for you or your team to gain an advantage. 1 penalty point for 3 track limit time penalties during a race (if you breach track limits 9 times) 3 penalty points for causing a bad collision (entirely your fault, quite bad and dangerous) 2 penalty points for causing a mediocre collision (you are at fault but was not strictly dangerous) 1 penalty point for every 2 black and white flags shown. Any penalties during the race like speeding under safety car or unsafe release won’t incur penalty points as the driver has already been punished during the race and this punishment is sufficient. Then every time one of these criteria is filled a penalty point or points will be handed out. Just have to make sure these criteria are very specific and there are no loop holes and certain terms are defined like causing a dangerous crash (it would be unfair to give someone the same number of penalty points for a light tap due to a misjudgement under braking that causes another driver to hit the wall at a low speed, compared to moving under braking) (intent)
The problem with an automated system is that there are aggravating/mitigating circumstances; for instance, when getting out of the way of a flying lap could endanger the driver, speeding up in pit lane to avoid a collision or a major collision caused by external factor like punctures caused by sharp kerbs (mix of driver error and mechanical failure). Unfortunately, it's not black and white and it will never be.
@@anameyoucantremember I think it should be kinda like how it is done in rugby, the penalty is applied automatically and then you look for mitigation. The emphasis will be on providing a valid reason why the penalty should NOT be imposed rather than arguing why it should. It's a small switch on emphasis but it makes it harder to provide a sort of shoulder shrug excuse which is currently used for providing penalties. If you have to provide a specific reason mitigation can be applied, it becomes a fair bit more difficult to turn a blind eye.
I think some things deserving penalties should be treated differently. Speeding in a pitlane, should only be penalised in the race. Same for impeding. But Dangerous driving, such as crashing and it being majorly one drivers fault, definitely deserves points Edit: I think speeding in the pitlane was a bad example. Maybe crossing the white line would be a better one
I see your line of thinking, but I think speeding in the pit lane should always be penalized no matter in what session the incident happened. There's always staff working there, so I would argue that cars going unnecessarily fast there is more of a safety concern than a sporting fairness concern.
@@TocasTheTalkingTaco Yes but you can penalize them in that specific weekend. For example for speeding in pitlane during FP or Quali you can give +2p on Sunday start
@@andresucu That's true, but I don't believe it would deincentivize repeated incidents. We have already seen how much better these cars can follow each other, if, let's say, a Red Bull speeds in the pit lane and gets pole position, he would start P3. With the pace of that car, a win from P3 seems highly likely. It would be harder for them to win, but there wouldn't be any deterrent for attempting that at the next Grand Prix.
The big problem is that they aren’t consistent with the penalty points. Like you said, Stroll should have had at least one point for forcing a car of track. The 12 point race ban isn’t a problem, as you will not get a race ban for crossing the white line, you get a race ban for crossing the white line and up to eleven other infringements you’ve done during the last year. If you can’t follow the rules enough to not get 12 points maybe you need to have a break and think about it.
the way the stewards are making it increasingly difficult to get penalty points the more you've already collected is absolutely insane. If someone has already committed 9+ offences worthy of penalty points, they've already shown blatant disregard for the rules and (in my opinion) should be penalized more instead of less for further offences (maybe not with penalty points for lesser offences, but maybe with more severe time penalties)
Honestly, I have no idea why such headlines would be an embarrassment. Even in the random scenario you gave in the video with track limits or quali and it being Verstappen or not someone in the back - it's GOOD. Twitter explodes, media storms in? All FIA needs to do is just drop one answer - these are the rules. Boom, no embarrassment, everyone sees them as having balls, amazing PR in my opinion. Literally all they need to do to make this system not flawed - actually implement the ban. THE END.
Imagine if last season had seen Hammy banned for a race because of penalty points, the Mercedes Defense Force (who were already convinced the entire world is against him and him alone) would immediately claim bias and racism.
@@MrSniperfox29 again, so what? I'm actually a Lewis fan and all what would happen in this case is just ppl like me would be ashamed with absolute idiocity of the team. But in all fairness, it damages them, not FIA. So overall I stand by the idea that the rule is fine and it would be even healthh for the sport to see it reach the point of banning someone. And sure, there will be pushbacks but FIA needs to be ready to just simply stand their ground. And then 3 days later there will be enough other talking points and the pressuee will be off, that's all
@@nettlecider You don't know much about F1 toxic fans. I remember last season when Hammy was disqualified from qualifying, and his fan base literally claimed he was being victimised and "it was only slightly against the rules"
@@MrSniperfox29 sadly that's true, but it can be observed everywhere. All I'm saying is that rule makers should realise just how above all of this crap they should be and just ignore any stupid outrages. Besides, we now have Max and Charles fanbases at each others throats and to be fair nothing has even really happened between them .D
@@nettlecider Actually Ferrari and Red Bull fans are generally getting on fine, the only real toxic element as it stands is Mercedes fans for last season and there downfall this season.
I disagree with the assessment that Grosjean's 2012 race ban was a knee-jerk reaction to one incident -the Spa crash. Grosjean had been involved in one incident after another for a while and he generally had accrued a reputation of being a sloppy and at time dangerous driver. Due to a lack of a penalty points system, or any kind of system at all it seemed like the Stewards (and whoever else was involved) had had enough and gave him a race ban. On the face of it getting a race ban for one incident is an overreaction, but with context and the fact that no other methods to curb/punish such behaviour I find it an entirely justifiable punishment. It should be noted that after the race ban his on-track behaviour improved and he went on to have successful career in F1. The incident directly led to the introduction of the penalty points system soon after, and as we've found over the years it is... not ideal, mostly because it seems stewards seem to be handing out penalty points for every infraction now, which was never supposed to be the case. The system should be there to punish and keep track of dangerous behaviour, not to punish simple transgressions which are already punished by the regs.
Why is there the impression that a driver getting a race ban is an embarrassment to the sport. Many football leagues have a rule where is you get consecutive yellow cards in 2 games you are banned from the third gane. No one says it’s embarrassing to football when this happens, everyone knows this is the rule.
The simpla fact that these questions been asked showes to me, that something isn‘t quite right with these penalty points. In germany you can also get points on your licence by breaking the trafic-laws. there is also a limit of points where you loose your licence for a certain time. Imagine the police beeing „ah I see, you are close to loosing, this time we will only give you a warning“….
Wasn't Lando like 1 or 2 points away from a ban last year or the year before? And almost all of his points were bullshit. Other drivers do the same thing throughout the year and get nothing. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that if Lando got 1 more incident he would be banned for a race at some point last year because his points from the year before were carrying over
Not only could this video age well. If they ban a driver for a silly infringement, you can claim that they felt pressured to act because of this video.
I think that just like race points, penalty points could be handed out in halves too for certain infringements... Anything that could just be kept in a race and stands as a single incident, like speeding or overlooking a blue flag could be worth half a point, and if they don't make the same or another infringement that deserves another half point, that half point gets deleted after the race, and they just suffer the in-race penalty... But if they both speed in the pits and block someone in the same race, earning them two half point infringements in the same race, they get added together for a full point that will stand for the full season.
Sorry but you are looking at this from the wrong angle. The FIA isn't making one of their star drivers sit out a race weekend. The driver themselves isn't bothering to adhere to the rules each and every driver and in the case of Imola that's 76 drivers if you include the grids for F2 and F3 that also raced there. Maybe they should ban Hamilton or Verstappen for a weekend and shock the rest of the grid into behaving when they realise the rules will actually be enforced.
There are some penalties that are given time penalties, such as speeding in the pit lane. Then there are the ones which don't end up with time penalties, like exceeding track limits or causing a crash. These are given penalty points. From what I've seen, they don't double dip on penalties. It's one or the other.
I think the penalty points system is correct, but the FIA doesn't understand it (or doesn't want to). A 2-penalty-points offence is a 1/6 of a ban, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, or if you feel "it's not that harsh". If they think it's too harsh, then change the proportions (either how many points an offence deserves, how many points should translate to a race ban, or how long they should last), but everyone should follow the same set of rules.
I think it’s possible but it would have to be a major incident on top of a series of prior penalties. Thank goodness that hasn’t happened yet and until it does there will be no bans.
I mean, when the ban comes, it won't be cuz of the last infringement, but because of all the violations summed up, so I think the hypothetical bad press would be the one to blame in that scenario. Also, the pilot should be immediately notified -- or at least be warned of the investigation -- about the penalties so as to avoid repeated violations in the same race. This could be gamed, but what there is now seems wrong
Rules is rules. Regardless of the driver, if they exceed the penalty points limit, then I’m fine with a race ban. If it’s in writing and there is consistency, I’m fine with it.
If the goal is to punish repeat offenders they should increase penalty point for repeat offenses. First time impeding another driver, formal warning 0 points, 2nd-4th time, 1 point, 5th -7th time 2 point etc.This should cut down on points being handed out left and right for minor enfringments and leaves room to increase the points for mayor enfringments, such as causing a multiple car pile up (Hungry, last year for instance)
The first time I got pulled over by the police I got a ticket. My two friends got pulled over multiple times, included going at very high speeds in a school zone ( a major infraction in the US ), and weaving as if impaired at which time one friend was given an impairment test. Neither got tickets even though they were driving much more dangerously than me! My mom said that just because they got off the hook, doesn't mean I am going to. Unfortunately, the rules in any competitive game are hard to apply with precise equity. Just look at football and basketball where the players constantly are attempting to game the rules for an advantage.
I feel that if they want to really make this system stick they need to clearly outline what actions call for penalty points and how many. That way receiving penalty points and a ban won’t be as much a surprise to the driver and a team more just a cause and effect sort of thing.
i feel that what the fia can do is that a driver gets 12 penalty points his race points he gets halfed on the next race or if not scored ny in the next race then the punishment can be chosen likewise
What I feel IS flawed is the logic in this video. You seem to suggest that that FIA may/would/should not give a driver a ban if their 12th infringement was something really insignificant, as if a driver would only be penalized based on their last offense, but no, they get a ban because they have already committed 11 infringements before! Drivers need to know that at some point there will be consequences, otherwise they're going to ignore the regulations. You could argue that they can already get away with a lot.
I understand why the FIA don't want to ban a driver, especially a top tier one. But it will cause drivers to be less cautious, knowing very well there are no consequences. And then, at some point, the FIA will just have to start being less lenient and actually taking this seriously.
I think just the most serious incidents are treated too softly in terms of penalty points. I've never seen F1 driver given more than three for one incident. In F2 Mazepin got four but I can see it being combination of two separate infringements in one (one point for failing to go around the mark for missing the apex at turns 2/3 at Sochi, then three for causing the crash)
Surely it would make more sense that someone with a lot of penalty points should be treated more harshly as it shows that driver constantly breaks the rules? Especially if it an offence they have committed numerous times before. So for example if you speed in the pit lane once you get one point, if you do it again you get two, so three in total. Admittedly I think speeding in the pit lane is something that could be punished within a race, so maybe not the best example, but you get the gist. If driver's know that the more points they have the more they will get away with then I would guess it makes them more comfortable with pushing the boundaries, which is surely the opposite affect the points system is supposed to have.
I doubt they’ll ban anyone. They might if something is remarkably egregious, and they need to make an example of someone. However, like you noted, the FIA moves the goal posts all the time, so who knows what such an event would look like. It’s a bit scary to think about.
In Austria when you drive doubble as much as allowed you loose your license immediatle and maybe your number plate aswell. And if you where drunk at the same time you have to earn your license again from scratch. After a psychological test if you are actually capable of driving safely.
Come on Matt, you know the headline wouldn't be so clear and informative. It would say something like: "Max Verstappen banned from next race after beating Ferrari"
You could make the argument that the goal never was to ban drivers but give them a scare. They know if they are pushing the point limit they have to be a little less naughty.
Maybe they should add something like "reach 12 points with a 4 points or more penalty" so that a driver isn't banned for speeding or exceeding track limits. Maybe then they would dare going by the rules. But otherwise, yes, the system is broken. Stroll never having been banned is a "miracle"
i dunno matt. those race bans sound like a red card in football. if messi or ronaldo receives a red card they have to sit out the next game. there wouldnt be no one coming in and saving their ass
The thing with the points is they expire a year from when they were given. For example Max currently has 7 points, the first of which will expire at the Italian GP, Monza which is in September. If he gets to 12 points before then, he has earned a race ban, but I don't think the points are just cleared right after. Ie if he commits further infractions before the those points expire he may likely continue to be punished. It has never happened so we don't know how they would proceed.
If nothing else, they should at least increase the amount of penalty points you're alowed before a ban simply because there are more races to collect them now than ever before.
If there are penalty points, and you reach 12 and that means a race ban, they should do it, regardless of what the last violation is. I also think, if they are going to have this system, they need to be strict on it. There are too many times where it seems like they just don't apply the rules. The rules should be the rules.
Honestly, just change the penalty, make it like when you get 6 points you get a 5 places grid drop or something like that, so you can actually get punishments out without the need to go nuclear with a race ban
You could say that the fact that no one has got a race ban yet means that the points system is actually working. Maybe F1 drivers drive with a bit less risk now because they might end up missing a race.
I can see this easily solved by implementing a point deduction system for the championship, rather than a race ban, which is against the interest of the F1 itself.
This is an example of a good rule applied really wrong if applied at all. Penalty points system would be a good rule if FIA was consistent in applying it.
I don’t understand why there would be embarrassment on the FIA’s part if a “star driver” got banned for a race. Look at football, star players get sent off all the time, the media might shame the player, but they aren’t gonna complain that the FA is ruining the sport by not letting the greats play for 3 matches
It’s same system as public roads driving. It should structurally work. It doesn’t because those enforcing it a. know all the drivers b. are incentivized to let the drivers race. Those two reasons are why really no penalty system works perfectly
Mercedes last year used an engine on only 3 races, "overclocked" the sh@t out of it and only got a 5 place grid penalty because it was the second extra engine
They were watching and now they will be giving points out left and right. Toward the end of the season we see a race start with 14 drivers. The other 6 got 12 points and a 1 race ban. LOL
Imagine spending thousands of dollars to go to an F1 race just to see that your favorite driver got a one race ban after speeding in the pits or impeding another car in qualifying a few times...
'The embarassing press F1 would get because one of it's top drivers misses out due to getting 12 penalty points' Thats like saying FIFA/UEFA/The FA should do all it can to stop top players in the top leagues of the world from getting banned after getting 5 bookings despite it being, Y'know, the rules...
Lance Stroll get just 2 points for crashing in Australia qualifying. Sometimes driver get two penalty points for ignoring yellow flag (not as dangerous as Stroll was on Melbourne). For me that crash worth much more penalty points.
Anything shy of causing an accident should be handled with time penalties during the race. 40 kph over pit lane speed, 10 second stop and go. Multiple times across the pit lane line, every driver should be held to the same standard. Kicking a driver out of a race for line violations is just stupid unless the driver just makes his own lines for the race.
@@Slimmeyy ... Stop and Go penalty is immediate and final. A penalty point is a slap on the wrist later which turns into no penalty at all if the driver doesn't get banned before the penalty point falls off.
@@WTH1812 I'm not saying that should be the only punishment, I'm saying that it's severe enough to warrant a penalty point (or 2) on top of the in-race punishment.
(Joke/humor) There was a driver banned for dangerous driving and off track conduct: Mazespin 7 points on track incidents + loss of team for off track conduct + 9999 penalty points for Ukraine.
Thats not the problem with the system tho? But with ones who are giving out the points? Idk how can you call the system flawed when its just used wrong by the ones who implemented it.
This is all extremely speculative. I dont think at all how many points a driver has influences how many more they'll get, but I do think the points aren't consistent across the severity of offences. In saying that though, looking at the points incurred in 2021, it does seem consistent. There is some difference in what drivers got for double waved yellows and I see a few drivers incurred 3 for not pitting when they were supposed to, that is too many for that. There's a lot on the board for minor collisions as well. Drivers make mistakes. Things like that should be reduced to 1 point and 2 or more reserved for more sever mistakes or deliberate actions. Things do need looking at, but not because of what you are speculating here and to the extent to which you speculate it, but because it's not consistent.
Could FIA be inconsistent in applying their own rules? Surely that would never happen in a multibillion dollar sport run by absolutely unbiased professionals!
I don't get why it would be so horrible if a driver got banned for a single race, it would effectively be a dnf/dns and drivers get that all the time, I mean it's not nice but it's also your own fault.
Just more proof that the sport is completely controlled by Hollywood. As much as I love the racing. It's a show. Where we now see that they even get to pick the champion.
Or they could grow a pair and enforce their rules consistently and not care about the press. If there is a rule you should enforce, otherwise what is the point of having that rule. But we all know they cant grow a pair and enforce anything for consistency.
I hate when you can bend the rules. If the rules are in place, enforce them, everybody knows them. If they are banned, it's their own fault. If the rules doesn't make any sense, remove them. It honestly cannot be that difficult.
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0:40 Matt, you might be forgetting that Grosjean had a lap 1 collision in almost every race prior to that. The stewards had essentially had enough of it by Spa, especially when it almost led to Alonso getting decapitated by a front wing going over his cockpit.
I was thinking the same. It's why he ended up with a year out of F1, at least IMHO. His constant carelessness and apparent lack of situational awareness got under many drivers' and teams' skins to the point where his team had no option but to make him sit out a year (did he go back to GP2? It's such a long time ago I have forgotten). There was that other bit of idiocy in Spa when he took out both Hamilton and Button in one go!
Tbh, it was his continued lack of situational awareness which ended up nearly killing him in Bahrain, because he was the one who turned into Kvyat, not the other way around. It's a bloody miracle that he - and others - survived his tenure in F1. I'm sure he's a lovely guy, but I found him hard to take to because of his attitude towards the other drivers. Obviously I wasn't anything other than horrified by his accident and I desperately wished for him to be okay, but even then after seeing the replay, I could only shake my head and not be too surprised. The biggest shock was what happened to the car!
@@y_fam_goeglyd He definitely deserves to be confined to the FIA Bus.
@@y_fam_goeglyd it’s funny how you have no clue, admit that you have no clue, but still invent weird theories
Grosjean went back to GP2 before that Spa incident, and it was simply because he wasn’t deserving his seat in F1
what you said is untrue.
Ive felt for quite some time that the quality of this channel is degrading, it also feels more biased than before
I think separating the penalties points for the infringement grade, would make much more sense. Let's say impeding drivers on track or speeding in the pitlane gets you grade one penalty points. If you have x grade one points or above, you will receive a 3-grid penalty. For harsher incidents like crashes, you will receive grade two penalty points, where you will get a race ban for x grade two points. This can even be expanded so grade one points would result in 5- or 10-grid penalties, whenever the points exceed the first penalty
That grade two penalty you mentioned should only be applied to intentional crashes like 2012 Spa incident mentioned in the video.
@@hexostatus4658 Yes, if there is a party clearly at fault or if this party is predominantly at fault. The amount of points given may differ based on the situation and the cause
@@yourDecisi0n yea, like crashes from driver error deserve a leeway from penalty points, like in Saudi arabia Qualifying this year, and no points for incidents that are no fault of the driver’s own.
Speeding in the pitlane is arguably more dangerous than causing a turn 1 crash. When was the last time a driver was seriously injured from a car on car collision and then think about what can happen when an F2 type car drives into your shins at nearly 100 kph.
@@DaveWraptastic I don't think that's the case though, the pitlane is still part of an active race track, therefore should be handled as such. Also, if you "speed" through the pitlane it's only at the entry. Anyways, you could give more points for a greater infringements of course and some potential dangerous 'minor' infringements could get you points in grade two
For me, procedural stuff (like practice starts in the wrong spot) or gaining an advantage (track limits & pit entry white lines) should be time penalties only, increasing up to a DSQ for >30 seconds worth in a single race.
Keep the penalty points for safety issues such as speeding in the pit lane, not respecting yellow flags and forcing drivers off the track/causing collisions, or braking at unexpected times.
That way you cut out the risk of a ban for silly things and you can then point to safety as a catch all argument.
Maybe allow points to be given out if there's evidence of bringing the sport into disrepute (e.g. Perez blocking LeClerc in Q1 explicitly to help Max, or another Singapore 2008). But they'd be exceptional circumstances so very rare.
They should just make a consistent set of penalty points which will be applied automatically. Then there can be no bias, no indecision as everything will go by their rules of handing out penalty points. E.g. If these are the only way you can get penalty points:
1 penalty point for speeding in pit lane (less than 10km/h over)
2 penalty points for excessively speeding in the pit lane (10km/h +)
1 penalty point for blocking a driver on a hot lap.
1 penalty point for excessive and/or dangerous weaving.
2 penalty points for purposely slowing cars down behind in a SC, VSC or pit lane window for you or your team to gain an advantage.
1 penalty point for 3 track limit time penalties during a race (if you breach track limits 9 times)
3 penalty points for causing a bad collision (entirely your fault, quite bad and dangerous)
2 penalty points for causing a mediocre collision (you are at fault but was not strictly dangerous)
1 penalty point for every 2 black and white flags shown.
Any penalties during the race like speeding under safety car or unsafe release won’t incur penalty points as the driver has already been punished during the race and this punishment is sufficient.
Then every time one of these criteria is filled a penalty point or points will be handed out. Just have to make sure these criteria are very specific and there are no loop holes and certain terms are defined like causing a dangerous crash (it would be unfair to give someone the same number of penalty points for a light tap due to a misjudgement under braking that causes another driver to hit the wall at a low speed, compared to moving under braking) (intent)
The problem with an automated system is that there are aggravating/mitigating circumstances; for instance, when getting out of the way of a flying lap could endanger the driver, speeding up in pit lane to avoid a collision or a major collision caused by external factor like punctures caused by sharp kerbs (mix of driver error and mechanical failure). Unfortunately, it's not black and white and it will never be.
@@anameyoucantremember I think it should be kinda like how it is done in rugby, the penalty is applied automatically and then you look for mitigation. The emphasis will be on providing a valid reason why the penalty should NOT be imposed rather than arguing why it should. It's a small switch on emphasis but it makes it harder to provide a sort of shoulder shrug excuse which is currently used for providing penalties. If you have to provide a specific reason mitigation can be applied, it becomes a fair bit more difficult to turn a blind eye.
I think some things deserving penalties should be treated differently. Speeding in a pitlane, should only be penalised in the race. Same for impeding. But Dangerous driving, such as crashing and it being majorly one drivers fault, definitely deserves points
Edit: I think speeding in the pitlane was a bad example. Maybe crossing the white line would be a better one
IMO speeding in the pitlane is dangerous driving.
I see your line of thinking, but I think speeding in the pit lane should always be penalized no matter in what session the incident happened. There's always staff working there, so I would argue that cars going unnecessarily fast there is more of a safety concern than a sporting fairness concern.
Speeding in an area with hundreds of walking flesh bags is definitely deserving of penalty points.
@@TocasTheTalkingTaco Yes but you can penalize them in that specific weekend. For example for speeding in pitlane during FP or Quali you can give +2p on Sunday start
@@andresucu That's true, but I don't believe it would deincentivize repeated incidents. We have already seen how much better these cars can follow each other, if, let's say, a Red Bull speeds in the pit lane and gets pole position, he would start P3. With the pace of that car, a win from P3 seems highly likely. It would be harder for them to win, but there wouldn't be any deterrent for attempting that at the next Grand Prix.
The big problem is that they aren’t consistent with the penalty points. Like you said, Stroll should have had at least one point for forcing a car of track.
The 12 point race ban isn’t a problem, as you will not get a race ban for crossing the white line, you get a race ban for crossing the white line and up to eleven other infringements you’ve done during the last year.
If you can’t follow the rules enough to not get 12 points maybe you need to have a break and think about it.
*FIA:* We're going to enforce this.
*ALSO FIA:* I see nothing, I hear nothing
Unless of course it's a midfield or rear field team then it's game on.
the way the stewards are making it increasingly difficult to get penalty points the more you've already collected is absolutely insane. If someone has already committed 9+ offences worthy of penalty points, they've already shown blatant disregard for the rules and (in my opinion) should be penalized more instead of less for further offences (maybe not with penalty points for lesser offences, but maybe with more severe time penalties)
The man Mahaveer was really doing things we’ve never seen before or since✊
Honestly, I have no idea why such headlines would be an embarrassment. Even in the random scenario you gave in the video with track limits or quali and it being Verstappen or not someone in the back - it's GOOD. Twitter explodes, media storms in? All FIA needs to do is just drop one answer - these are the rules. Boom, no embarrassment, everyone sees them as having balls, amazing PR in my opinion. Literally all they need to do to make this system not flawed - actually implement the ban. THE END.
Imagine if last season had seen Hammy banned for a race because of penalty points, the Mercedes Defense Force (who were already convinced the entire world is against him and him alone) would immediately claim bias and racism.
@@MrSniperfox29 again, so what? I'm actually a Lewis fan and all what would happen in this case is just ppl like me would be ashamed with absolute idiocity of the team. But in all fairness, it damages them, not FIA. So overall I stand by the idea that the rule is fine and it would be even healthh for the sport to see it reach the point of banning someone. And sure, there will be pushbacks but FIA needs to be ready to just simply stand their ground. And then 3 days later there will be enough other talking points and the pressuee will be off, that's all
@@nettlecider You don't know much about F1 toxic fans. I remember last season when Hammy was disqualified from qualifying, and his fan base literally claimed he was being victimised and "it was only slightly against the rules"
@@MrSniperfox29 sadly that's true, but it can be observed everywhere. All I'm saying is that rule makers should realise just how above all of this crap they should be and just ignore any stupid outrages. Besides, we now have Max and Charles fanbases at each others throats and to be fair nothing has even really happened between them .D
@@nettlecider Actually Ferrari and Red Bull fans are generally getting on fine, the only real toxic element as it stands is Mercedes fans for last season and there downfall this season.
I disagree with the assessment that Grosjean's 2012 race ban was a knee-jerk reaction to one incident -the Spa crash.
Grosjean had been involved in one incident after another for a while and he generally had accrued a reputation of being a sloppy and at time dangerous driver.
Due to a lack of a penalty points system, or any kind of system at all it seemed like the Stewards (and whoever else was involved) had had enough and gave him a race ban. On the face of it getting a race ban for one incident is an overreaction, but with context and the fact that no other methods to curb/punish such behaviour I find it an entirely justifiable punishment.
It should be noted that after the race ban his on-track behaviour improved and he went on to have successful career in F1.
The incident directly led to the introduction of the penalty points system soon after, and as we've found over the years it is... not ideal, mostly because it seems stewards seem to be handing out penalty points for every infraction now, which was never supposed to be the case. The system should be there to punish and keep track of dangerous behaviour, not to punish simple transgressions which are already punished by the regs.
Yeah, Grosjean had like 7-8 1st lap incident in that season prior to Spa incident. Since that ban he had reduced his 1st lap incident
@@aimannazmi7198 pls name the 7-8
Why is there the impression that a driver getting a race ban is an embarrassment to the sport. Many football leagues have a rule where is you get consecutive yellow cards in 2 games you are banned from the third gane. No one says it’s embarrassing to football when this happens, everyone knows this is the rule.
No one knows, it's something Matt has invented 🤷♂️.
The penalty points system is fine as it is it's the issues you brought up here is the stewards being too lenient
The Cordeel thing was insane, I was watching it and lost track of his infringements during that race.
The simpla fact that these questions been asked showes to me, that something isn‘t quite right with these penalty points.
In germany you can also get points on your licence by breaking the trafic-laws. there is also a limit of points where you loose your licence for a certain time.
Imagine the police beeing „ah I see, you are close to loosing, this time we will only give you a warning“….
Wasn't Lando like 1 or 2 points away from a ban last year or the year before? And almost all of his points were bullshit. Other drivers do the same thing throughout the year and get nothing. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that if Lando got 1 more incident he would be banned for a race at some point last year because his points from the year before were carrying over
Yeah. The points expire a year from when they were given, the slate is not automatically wiped clean at the start of the season.
Good point --- never paid that much attention to penalty points
Tbh, this system should be a year to year thing, resetting to zero after each race year, and cut down to 5 or 6
With the inconsistency of the FIA, i'm not even surprised anymore...
It's my Graduation on May 5
Congratulations, what level of school?
Nice one mate!
Nice 👌
@@Fritz___ Grade 7 , I live in the Philippines 🇵🇭 , Montessori de Sagrada Familia. Thank you!
@@thelittleowl1 Thank you !
Not only could this video age well. If they ban a driver for a silly infringement, you can claim that they felt pressured to act because of this video.
I think that just like race points, penalty points could be handed out in halves too for certain infringements...
Anything that could just be kept in a race and stands as a single incident, like speeding or overlooking a blue flag could be worth half a point, and if they don't make the same or another infringement that deserves another half point, that half point gets deleted after the race, and they just suffer the in-race penalty... But if they both speed in the pits and block someone in the same race, earning them two half point infringements in the same race, they get added together for a full point that will stand for the full season.
Sorry but you are looking at this from the wrong angle. The FIA isn't making one of their star drivers sit out a race weekend. The driver themselves isn't bothering to adhere to the rules each and every driver and in the case of Imola that's 76 drivers if you include the grids for F2 and F3 that also raced there. Maybe they should ban Hamilton or Verstappen for a weekend and shock the rest of the grid into behaving when they realise the rules will actually be enforced.
I wouldn't see a ban as an embarrassment. It would actually be nice to see some rule enforcement with backbone
There are some penalties that are given time penalties, such as speeding in the pit lane. Then there are the ones which don't end up with time penalties, like exceeding track limits or causing a crash. These are given penalty points. From what I've seen, they don't double dip on penalties. It's one or the other.
I think the penalty points system is correct, but the FIA doesn't understand it (or doesn't want to). A 2-penalty-points offence is a 1/6 of a ban, it doesn't matter if you like it or not, or if you feel "it's not that harsh". If they think it's too harsh, then change the proportions (either how many points an offence deserves, how many points should translate to a race ban, or how long they should last), but everyone should follow the same set of rules.
I think it’s possible but it would have to be a major incident on top of a series of prior penalties. Thank goodness that hasn’t happened yet and until it does there will be no bans.
I mean, when the ban comes, it won't be cuz of the last infringement, but because of all the violations summed up, so I think the hypothetical bad press would be the one to blame in that scenario. Also, the pilot should be immediately notified -- or at least be warned of the investigation -- about the penalties so as to avoid repeated violations in the same race. This could be gamed, but what there is now seems wrong
Rules is rules. Regardless of the driver, if they exceed the penalty points limit, then I’m fine with a race ban. If it’s in writing and there is consistency, I’m fine with it.
If the goal is to punish repeat offenders they should increase penalty point for repeat offenses. First time impeding another driver, formal warning 0 points, 2nd-4th time, 1 point, 5th -7th time 2 point etc.This should cut down on points being handed out left and right for minor enfringments and leaves room to increase the points for mayor enfringments, such as causing a multiple car pile up (Hungry, last year for instance)
The first time I got pulled over by the police I got a ticket. My two friends got pulled over multiple times, included going at very high speeds in a school zone ( a major infraction in the US ), and weaving as if impaired at which time one friend was given an impairment test. Neither got tickets even though they were driving much more dangerously than me! My mom said that just because they got off the hook, doesn't mean I am going to. Unfortunately, the rules in any competitive game are hard to apply with precise equity. Just look at football and basketball where the players constantly are attempting to game the rules for an advantage.
I feel that if they want to really make this system stick they need to clearly outline what actions call for penalty points and how many. That way receiving penalty points and a ban won’t be as much a surprise to the driver and a team more just a cause and effect sort of thing.
Deterrents only work when people actually believe your going to pull the trigger.
i feel that what the fia can do is that a driver gets 12 penalty points his race points he gets halfed on the next race or if not scored ny in the next race then the punishment can be chosen likewise
What I feel IS flawed is the logic in this video. You seem to suggest that that FIA may/would/should not give a driver a ban if their 12th infringement was something really insignificant, as if a driver would only be penalized based on their last offense, but no, they get a ban because they have already committed 11 infringements before! Drivers need to know that at some point there will be consequences, otherwise they're going to ignore the regulations. You could argue that they can already get away with a lot.
That the logic presented in this video is flawed IS the hypothesis and point of the video.
Yup it's outrage bait.
They forgot about it like the DRS in Imola.
I understand why the FIA don't want to ban a driver, especially a top tier one. But it will cause drivers to be less cautious, knowing very well there are no consequences. And then, at some point, the FIA will just have to start being less lenient and actually taking this seriously.
2:26 If I did that on the road I would lose my license on the spot and be fined probably close to 1000 euros
Alonso said it during that interview some time ago. Drivers with certain nationalities are treated differently, and it's unfair.
I think just the most serious incidents are treated too softly in terms of penalty points. I've never seen F1 driver given more than three for one incident. In F2 Mazepin got four but I can see it being combination of two separate infringements in one (one point for failing to go around the mark for missing the apex at turns 2/3 at Sochi, then three for causing the crash)
Penalty Points : Exist*
Mahaveer Raghunathan : *My time has come*
Surely it would make more sense that someone with a lot of penalty points should be treated more harshly as it shows that driver constantly breaks the rules? Especially if it an offence they have committed numerous times before. So for example if you speed in the pit lane once you get one point, if you do it again you get two, so three in total. Admittedly I think speeding in the pit lane is something that could be punished within a race, so maybe not the best example, but you get the gist. If driver's know that the more points they have the more they will get away with then I would guess it makes them more comfortable with pushing the boundaries, which is surely the opposite affect the points system is supposed to have.
I doubt they’ll ban anyone. They might if something is remarkably egregious, and they need to make an example of someone. However, like you noted, the FIA moves the goal posts all the time, so who knows what such an event would look like. It’s a bit scary to think about.
In Austria when you drive doubble as much as allowed you loose your license immediatle and maybe your number plate aswell.
And if you where drunk at the same time you have to earn your license again from scratch. After a psychological test if you are actually capable of driving safely.
I think time penalties should be based on car performance e.g. average qualifying of race pace.
Can't help it, but I just love how Matt pronounce "weekend"
Come on Matt, you know the headline wouldn't be so clear and informative. It would say something like:
"Max Verstappen banned from next race after beating Ferrari"
You could make the argument that the goal never was to ban drivers but give them a scare. They know if they are pushing the point limit they have to be a little less naughty.
Maybe they should add something like "reach 12 points with a 4 points or more penalty" so that a driver isn't banned for speeding or exceeding track limits. Maybe then they would dare going by the rules.
But otherwise, yes, the system is broken. Stroll never having been banned is a "miracle"
i dunno matt. those race bans sound like a red card in football. if messi or ronaldo receives a red card they have to sit out the next game. there wouldnt be no one coming in and saving their ass
Exactly. Matt for some strange reason is obsessed with this idea that they wouldn't enforce a ban for 12 points. Bizarre.
That's not the system problem, that's the Directors problem for not applying the system properly........
Not the race director that applies them
@@tgm9991 whoever is, that's their fault
So does that mean that drivers could go very aggressive to earn a win, get 9, 10 or 11 points then when they do it again, they get away with it?
The thing with the points is they expire a year from when they were given.
For example Max currently has 7 points, the first of which will expire at the Italian GP, Monza which is in September. If he gets to 12 points before then, he has earned a race ban, but I don't think the points are just cleared right after.
Ie if he commits further infractions before the those points expire he may likely continue to be punished. It has never happened so we don't know how they would proceed.
If nothing else, they should at least increase the amount of penalty points you're alowed before a ban simply because there are more races to collect them now than ever before.
If there are penalty points, and you reach 12 and that means a race ban, they should do it, regardless of what the last violation is. I also think, if they are going to have this system, they need to be strict on it. There are too many times where it seems like they just don't apply the rules. The rules should be the rules.
Honestly, just change the penalty, make it like when you get 6 points you get a 5 places grid drop or something like that, so you can actually get punishments out without the need to go nuclear with a race ban
So Lord Mahaveer literally exposed a loophole in regulations, what a legend.
Loving those VAR pics🥵
You could say that the fact that no one has got a race ban yet means that the points system is actually working. Maybe F1 drivers drive with a bit less risk now because they might end up missing a race.
I can see this easily solved by implementing a point deduction system for the championship, rather than a race ban, which is against the interest of the F1 itself.
1:34
Unfortunately, yes
This is an example of a good rule applied really wrong if applied at all. Penalty points system would be a good rule if FIA was consistent in applying it.
It's the same with the reprimand thing
99.2 in a 60!?! In the UK would be a ban and prison time in the real world, imagine that 😂
I don’t understand why there would be embarrassment on the FIA’s part if a “star driver” got banned for a race.
Look at football, star players get sent off all the time, the media might shame the player, but they aren’t gonna complain that the FA is ruining the sport by not letting the greats play for 3 matches
It’s same system as public roads driving. It should structurally work. It doesn’t because those enforcing it a. know all the drivers b. are incentivized to let the drivers race.
Those two reasons are why really no penalty system works perfectly
Mercedes last year used an engine on only 3 races, "overclocked" the sh@t out of it and only got a 5 place grid penalty because it was the second extra engine
I dont really see how ban would be bad press after FIA says, he broke all these rules
I think it would make for interesting title fight if a contender was banned for bad behaviour on track.
Lord Mahaveer really thought that penalty points were equivalent to race points, didn't he?
We've been through this so many times Matt, it's LORD Mahaveer.
Lord mahaveer proving his dominance and experience yet again being the only one to get 12 points and still being able to race
Still waiting for the day that happens.. its a good idea just needs tweaking far as penalty points go.
They were watching and now they will be giving points out left and right. Toward the end of the season we see a race start with 14 drivers. The other 6 got 12 points and a 1 race ban. LOL
"The inevitable embarrassing press if one of their star drivers was required to sit out"
So why did they go easy on Latifi?
I like how Lord Mahaveer got mention
That is true why f1 penalty is something wrong
Imagine spending thousands of dollars to go to an F1 race just to see that your favorite driver got a one race ban after speeding in the pits or impeding another car in qualifying a few times...
Who’s here after Singapore 2023?
'The embarassing press F1 would get because one of it's top drivers misses out due to getting 12 penalty points'
Thats like saying FIFA/UEFA/The FA should do all it can to stop top players in the top leagues of the world from getting banned after getting 5 bookings despite it being, Y'know, the rules...
Lance Stroll get just 2 points for crashing in Australia qualifying. Sometimes driver get two penalty points for ignoring yellow flag (not as dangerous as Stroll was on Melbourne).
For me that crash worth much more penalty points.
Daddy's money keeps you safe . Unless your Russia 🇷🇺 of course 😉
Thought y’all were going to offer an alternative. Would have been a lot more interesting
Anything shy of causing an accident should be handled with time penalties during the race. 40 kph over pit lane speed, 10 second stop and go. Multiple times across the pit lane line, every driver should be held to the same standard. Kicking a driver out of a race for line violations is just stupid unless the driver just makes his own lines for the race.
I'd say going almost double the pit speed limit is deserving of a penalty point.
@@Slimmeyy ... Stop and Go penalty is immediate and final. A penalty point is a slap on the wrist later which turns into no penalty at all if the driver doesn't get banned before the penalty point falls off.
@@WTH1812 I'm not saying that should be the only punishment, I'm saying that it's severe enough to warrant a penalty point (or 2) on top of the in-race punishment.
(Joke/humor) There was a driver banned for dangerous driving and off track conduct: Mazespin
7 points on track incidents + loss of team for off track conduct + 9999 penalty points for Ukraine.
Yes because the Ukraine was Mazepins fault, he personally invaded them.
@@MrSniperfox29 It's a joke.
His father dumped fertilizer on the Ukraine people.
The heinous crime of being someone's friends' son.
@@johnstudent6968 No, people like you believe that he actually did something.
I also think that the sprint point system needs an upgrade with it being
8pts = 1st
6pts = 2nd
4pts = 3rd
3pts = 4th
2pts = 5th
1pt = 6th
They did though? All drivers down to P8 get points for a sprint race like under the 2003-2009 system.
@@Wolfywolf7 So?
They put up the system only to stop Mahaveer,but he is our lord,aint no power stopping him! :D
Thats not the problem with the system tho? But with ones who are giving out the points? Idk how can you call the system flawed when its just used wrong by the ones who implemented it.
amaury cordeel defo got a penalty for speeding in the pit lane matt. it was given after the race.
Do drivers still get points for crossing the pit lane entry white line? If so, imagine that leading to a race ban. Would be so hilarious.
I don´t expect to see a top driver to be banned. Maybe they one day ban someone who drives like Mazepin and has crashes almost every race.
This is all extremely speculative. I dont think at all how many points a driver has influences how many more they'll get, but I do think the points aren't consistent across the severity of offences.
In saying that though, looking at the points incurred in 2021, it does seem consistent. There is some difference in what drivers got for double waved yellows and I see a few drivers incurred 3 for not pitting when they were supposed to, that is too many for that.
There's a lot on the board for minor collisions as well. Drivers make mistakes. Things like that should be reduced to 1 point and 2 or more reserved for more sever mistakes or deliberate actions.
Things do need looking at, but not because of what you are speculating here and to the extent to which you speculate it, but because it's not consistent.
Could FIA be inconsistent in applying their own rules? Surely that would never happen in a multibillion dollar sport run by absolutely unbiased professionals!
I don't get why it would be so horrible if a driver got banned for a single race, it would effectively be a dnf/dns and drivers get that all the time, I mean it's not nice but it's also your own fault.
Exactly. It's a perfect case of confirmation bias and needing to find facts to fit a theory he's become so entrenched in.
The sooner a nincompoop gets to 12 penalty points, the sooner a deserving prospective driver will get a shot at driving an F1 car.
Just more proof that the sport is completely controlled by Hollywood.
As much as I love the racing. It's a show.
Where we now see that they even get to pick the champion.
This is why Lord Mahaveer Raghunathan is the GOAT. He’s undefeated.
They should exercise the ban
Or they could grow a pair and enforce their rules consistently and not care about the press. If there is a rule you should enforce, otherwise what is the point of having that rule. But we all know they cant grow a pair and enforce anything for consistency.
I hate when you can bend the rules. If the rules are in place, enforce them, everybody knows them. If they are banned, it's their own fault. If the rules doesn't make any sense, remove them. It honestly cannot be that difficult.
The FIA: I cAnT SeE iM LeGaLy bLiNd
So the system itself isn't flawed, they just are using it in flawed way.