Why F1's Halo Graphic is WRONG
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ธ.ค. 2023
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Formula One has been lying to you. Well, more of a white lie, BUT their halo graphic does give completely wrong information - it’s nothing like what the drivers are actually doing.
And if you copy this if you use that in your own gaming, karting or racing, it’s going to be costing you a tonne of lap time.
So, these graphics have been around for a good few years now, and to be honest I think they’re mostly great.
You’ve got the turn numbers, the throttle and brake position, the speed, gears and RPM - all cool information for us viewers to look at - AND it helps us to understand the drivers better.
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Favorite F1 graphic is the AWS ‘distance to the wall’. Says they’re a couple cm from the wall when the driver clearly just hit it
because it was "couple cm from the wall" in point where the sensor is. they dont have whole wall sensored bro
And the measurement in cm near the name can be used out of context ;) IYKWIM
@@erykdebny7117why have it then? I don’t need wrong information. I can see it for myself
It shows a near miss, otherwise known as a hit.
The best one is the battery% one where they dont have the data because its secret, and they'll show Driver A is deploying his energy when you can literally see him harvesting. Its great
I am hoping that sometime in the future we will get an actual brake trail reading and not just an on-off reading.
I suppoae in F1 it all happens so quickly. Also the drivers are at the limit of adhesion as the go around a corner, at every point of the corner. That takes a lot of practice, skill, and even bravery and trust.
We won't, as it's confidential sadly
It used to in the early 2000s
That would be nice, but sadly brakes dont work like that, in an f1 one car there is no thing as max braking distance, it is measured in bar, and every driver has there max pressure set differently, so it would be kinda confusing when like some drivers are only hitting "10%" brake pressure and some are getting to "50%" The percent is relative and has no value. But the graphs could totally show the trailing of the brake pressure. I hope one day they can somehow get it to work
@@waititsnilson1298iirc telemetry data from the cars is freely available to anyone, especially since otherwise the teams would be in a constant cyber war trying to intercept each other's wireless data. That's how the broadcasters and on screen telemetry data they always show comparing people in corners is available.
I read on a forum that they show the braking like that because it's one of the few things that teams are still keeping secret from everyone. If they show the actual percentage of brake pressure it may disclose different engineering techniques/secrets, but the pedal cam was shown for a while though.
I always thought they were doing this because a lot of the approaches to turns made no sense in relation to the braking graph. I think it's fine as is
They can't show 0 to 100% range, because it makes no sense. They can show a number, pressure. But we don't know if that's 5 or 50%. Also, what would 100% actually mean? 100% at 300 km/h without locking is different from 100% at 100 km/h without locking.
I figured the same and was surprised to not hear him mention this. One thing I do find odd in the real world is if you plug a sensor into the ODB2 port of your car, it gives an accurate percentage read out for how much of the accelerator is being applied, but only displays on/off (binary) for brakes. Always found this odd
@@alpha007org 100% wd mean u've fully depressed the pedal. so that means the brakes are at their max, doesn't matter if the wheels are locking or anything.
@@alpha007org What do you mean? 100% brake pressure is 100% brake pressure regardless the speed or whether you've locked up. Your point is completely irrelevant and wrong.
I was taught to imagine the steering wheel and brakes/throttle are connected, as you turn the wheel you lift the brake / trail braking, and the same out of the corner, as you wind off the lock you can press on the throttle. Was one of the best bits of info I ever got, simple advice but it helped me a lot - ok its a starting point, but it was easy to build on and exploit how that influenced balance through a corner.
Helps a lot to find and push limits, I use it myself in my professional career in forza motorsports
The string theory! Really helpful
I've never heard it described this way before, but I like it. I'll remember to use this when explaining to new people.
I was taught similar but the instructor said, when you can see ahead of the exit, then you should already be close to max throttle
When learning tracks I do the same till I know every bump on corners
Scott's made a pretty decent career out of explaining what trail braking is over and over
Suellio almeida explains it much better with youtube shorts
That’s pretty much how every driver coach makes their career! 💪
@@danielhcdeath-eater258 Both Scott and Suellio are amateur race drivers which is why they're teaching and not driving.
@@ldplays9431 and you are even more amateur hence why you are only gaming not teaching nor driving
@@gherbo1609 Yeah I´m not teaching because amateurs aren't supposed to teach. Suellio been teaching for years yet just recently sat in a real race car for the first time how does that make sense?
Mario Andretti also famously once said, ‘If you feel like you’re in control, you’re not going fast enough.’
I learned about braking forces when I did a driving experience at Silverstone in a Lotus Europa. Going into Stow too fast I managed to cross the corner almost backwards, my instructor’s face was ashen. At the end of the day he took me round the circuit at racing speed hoping to get his own back, trouble was I loved it. 😂
The title of this video should have been “the trail braking technique”
Absolutely but reality is, they need the damn clickbait to increase views sadly.
They’re not lying per se. It’s my understanding an agreement was made to show the brakes on off to keep private just how the car balance was being handled by each driver and team, where a weakness or strength may be, or engineering design secret etc.
So they agreed to all lie. Still a lie.
Yeah but there is a point to the lie and it is a solid reason and for the general public watching they can see when breaking and when accelerating in simple terms is generally fine.
This whole video breaks down exactly why you'd not be showing this live for everyone to see so other teams can read all that data.
@@jameshoffa7085I wouldnt say thats lying. It's just a simplification of the process with more definitions of the term "braking".
@@jameshoffa7085 cry about it
@@adamchambers1393 The other teams already have the data about each other. Frankly, at that level of motorsports all drivers know how to use the brake pedal and don't need to know what the other guy is doing. It's just that the brake pressure data is not visualized in full detail in public TV feeds.
just went karting a couple hours ago. not at all on the same level but practising the braking while cornering was one of my favourite parts
This is THE most difficult thing to learn in high performance driving. It's the part of driving that requires feel. Everything else is pretty much mechanical. The reason track driving is so addictive for me is because this part of it is so damn complicated to get right. And conditions are always changing.
I always assumed that this was done this way so the drivers could keep their braking traits private from everyone else. So much laptime is found or lost on the brakes. So you wouldnt want anyone copying your ways.
Title is wrong. You never explain why, just how
Informative video, though very clickbaity in nature "The graphic is completely wrong" as opposed to "There is this one minor technical detail that you likely never noticed because you were just looking at the speed".
Been waiting for you to break down the art of brake and throttle through different turns. Kind of makes me respect the growth that Logan Sergeant had through the year, competing against the best of the best. REALLY makes me appreciate the guys like Max, Lewis, Fernando… because all these drivers can navigate the complex equation, but those at the top do it faster, cleaner, and just all around better lol. It’s insane. I bet their ankles and their calf muscles are knotted after a race.
Unfortunatly this is an issue since they introduced that throttle/brake graphics back in 2004/2005 or when this was.
Would be cool to see the differcences
Fascinating! Thanks for such an informative peek into managing a race car. I've often read the term 'trail braking' in car magazines, but didn't understand its purpose until now.
Thank you! This has been driving me nuts for years now, and nobody talks about it for some reason. I assume that the teams don't want the full brake traces made public, but plenty of other series have the correct graphic...
I remember on a broadcast they were talking about it being due to brake by wire, how much of the braking is by the brakes vs energy recovery, and they didn't want to reveal how energy recovery mapping is set or something to that effect. But that didn't really make sense for hiding the indicator because for the indicator/broadcast we don't care how the slowing down is achieved, just how much is being demanded by the driver. The teams could just map the applied pressure range on the pedal to a 0-10 score while hiding everything that's going on in the background to not reveal anything.
Getting an youtube ad during a chanel sponsor ad is something I've never experienced before.
This is one of the first things taught at motorcycle safety training. The front tire can’t give 100% braking and 100% turning at the same time. Side note; trail braking into a corner on a bike actually greatly changes the steering trail (caster angle) and makes the steering input even lighter to steer tighter.
Just turn off ABS on the F1 game and you‘ll see that you HAVE to trail brake in order to not lock the tires
Another piece of golden content, thanks Scott
Any chance you could analyze the different braking curves needed to get the most from RWD vs FWD vehicles?
This is wild... I started my in-real-life racing in Formula 1 Sidecars (very fast, roadcourse, 3 wheels) coming from a background in motorcycle racing with no automotive racing experience at all, not even a car trackday. I was taught due to the nature of the F1 sidecar chassis geometry that I could either be on the throttle or on the brakes. I needed to learn how to blend both together seamlessly for both braking and acceleration. If I was off both and coasting the chassis would be very unstable. My first season in the cockpit as a driver (first 3 seasons were spent as a passenger) I had several close calls where I did not have the chassis balanced correctly because I was coasting instead of blending the throttle and brakes. By the start of my second season I'd got into the habit of blending the throttle and brakes and my primary focus was on how fast and smooth I could make the blend happen without breaking traction into, around, and out of corners. My third season I'd learned how to vary the throttle and brake input to rotate the chassis at will into, around, and out of the corners. With all that said... I am fairly new to sim-racing and your video has just made it click for me why I seem to get a lot of players into and out of technical / hard corners and chicanes. Very cool video!
Big +1 that I wish the "brake" overlay was showing the real data.
That being said, in your explanation of why braking is that important you incorrectly said that too much braking causes oversteer. Rather, too much braking causes understeer. Too little braking also causes understeer :D
There is a range between "too much" and "too little" where braking can cause either oversteer in some corners, or "minimal possible understeer" in other corners. The main point of your video is correct: braking is a very important tool in maximizing car performance, and it's a shame that we don't get that information from F1.
When I was a BMW technician,I won a track day at Brands Hatch through a BMW competition. On the day we had five laps in a Sunbeam Lotus, and then five laps in a Formula Ford. In the Sunbeam Lotus my instructor was none other than a young “Tim Harvey” he did five laps and then I had a go. I knew then that I would never have been a racing driver. I enjoyed my laps in the Lotus Sunbeam,but my laps in the single seater formula Ford were a nightmare.
To see these guys at work,Cornering,Braking,etc. There is no way that I would have wanted to get into motor racing. All credit to these guys.World Champions,club racers.Any guy who races cars,or Bikes, deserve credit for their courage,and skill. No matter what series, from club level to F1.
Great video mate 👍 a motorcycle road racer once told me “go slow into the corner to exit it fast, if you go in too fast then you ain’t coming out of it!”
You just explained how they’re lying to us but not why
What is the reason they don’t show how much break pressure is actually used
what i always missed in my uni lectures was a guitar solo when I'm trying to listen
Always thought about this ever since i saw the braking graphic for the first time, i never knew the reason why the brake pressure isn't shown at all
Hi
Another great video. Please do a video comparing the styles of Lewis and Max.
I would also like to see one on Leclerc. Why is he so quick?
I can live with that but the graphic that needs addressing is the stupid car corner box markers
Really good explanation of what goes on under braking, but WHY doesn’t the graphic show that? Why does graphic only signal on/off?
Heya, just wanted to add my two cents to this as someone who worked on the telemetry data and graphics for Formula 1. The binary nature the brake graphic is a specific design choice as the telemetry comes through in Nm (newton metres) in the telemetry. Since there is technically an infinite amount of pressure (obviously not practically) that can be put onto the brake pedal it is difficult to gauge what "100%" would be. This is especially true across all 20 cars as each driver has different brake pressure set ups and resistance in the pedal depending on their preference. It was deemed then for simplicity that the braking graphic should be binary with a small dead zone to activate.
You can see the different design choices if you watch MotoGP where they have chosen to put it as a scale from 0 to 100.
Otherwise good video, I enjoyed the explanation of the how the finesse of braking affects the car at different points of a corner!
i appreciate the on-screen HUDs as that area can be free from ads while the teams continue to try and fill every square millimeter of the screen space of an F1 broadcast feed with advertisements.
The binary brake graphic has annoyed me for ages. As pointed out by Scott, it's not representative of what's happening.
But I'm doubly frustrated because brake pressure has definitely been measured electronically; these are brake-by-wire cars (and the teams would have been recording this before BBW too). And it just makes me think there's been an agreement or compromise made where the teams have been allowed to keep the finer braking telemetry private.
This indeed. Throttle modulation is somewhat visible, i too have been bothered by it as well.
I knew something had to be wrong. You always hear about the importance of trail braking, but then you see those graphics and think, damn, why those guys don't do it?
A perfect explanation of how drivers use weight shifting to turn! I knew that you never use maximum braking to turn and that you use max acceleration to put all the weight on the rear wheels, but I did not realize that you also use a little bit of braking to help you around the corner. It seems that, rather than braking and throttle lights, what you need is a G-meter.
Been noticing that for a while now, and it turned out exactly how you said. Thanks for the insight!
When I was younger and just starting to drive I watched a lot of nascar and Mark Martin would talk about these principles of driving. I guess this is a version of “slow is fast”
Would it be ok to actually use the accelerator to perform the same balance in the corner on a FWD?
I’m curious about feedback from the car during the straight line period as downforce decays. How does the driver feel the edge? How do they know they are just before a lockup. After turn in the can feel the car’s rotation and understeer or oversteer are pretty obvious and we see them sawing the wheel to correct. I just haven’t grok’d how they feel the limit being approached in straight line braking.
Best explanation I've ever had on the subject of braking. Thank you.
Tbh I have been thinking this ever since that graphics came around. Sure in the beginning I thought it was correct but then I realized the drivers can't use the brakes as an on/off switch like either 0 or 100 percent braking as it shows. It made no sense.
I really do hate it when people state something is a lie, when it isn't, A lie is a deliberate act to deceive, they are not lying, they are simply not giving the whole information, the viewer only needs to know if the brake is on or off , they don't need to know how much, acceleration happens over a longer time so it's easier to show it's graduation. But why not click bate it to give another explanation of how trail braking works.
i've learned so much from this channel. my crashes are with much lower speeds now :)
F1 broadcasts had more accurate brake and throttle graphics back then, at least in the mid-2000's I believe.
Even if it wasn't perfectly accurate, you could have an idea of Schumacher's fancy footwork throughout the corners, for an example.
So where does the displayed data come from then, if its not actual braking data? What about the rest, throttle, speed, gear?
I noticed this early on when the graphics changed. I'm struggling to remember if the braking graph displayed something more accurate previously. Perhaps that was the case, because it felt much more obvious braking wouldn't be on/off, even with the cars going through such massive changes thanks to a shakeup in regulations. Starting watching F1 late 2012. So have witnessed not only TV graphic changes, but different channels and commentators broadcasting within the US.
You're the only guy I know who could make a full-length video with ad rolls about something that can be explained in ten seconds
Can you do a video on f1h20? Im very interested to see what you think about boats that go full throttle into hairpins
thank you for another usefull tip when we go karting or sim racing, I hope one day we will meet @Winfield
That was what I was trying to tell my lecturer and classmate.
My lecturer said that his car steering got very sensitive( he explained it by saying that his steering inputs started to get more sensitive and it was twitchy) at some point when going 120kph in the neighboring country.
They were attributing to lift.
Even though lift would do the opposite.
Also like 120? The 20kph difference in how fast they drive here isn't going to cause enough of a difference in lift anyway.
Essentially they've never driven on a long enough straight and flat road to feel when the car weight becomes balanced and there's more grip in the front than while accelerating, especially in a fwd.
They also said some weird things about Japanese cars being less stable than continentals.
Our car at the time was Japanese, a Q50, while Infiniti is kinda an American brand, we all know the cars are just rebadged and retooled Nissans that they don't sell outside Japan. It never had that issue. Heck, it was way more stable than our Citroen now. There are many things that change how a car behaves.
Dunning-Kruger effect it seems.
My fave videos are where you explain technical skills in driving. I apply them to my sim driving and see immediate gains. Even for things I already "knew" your explanations make them much clearer.
Grip between road cars and gt3 cars are different, i am having trouble translating the sense of speed to judge the grip of the car. I think my setup is correct, well measured out according to the research (fanatec dd gt sport, v3 pedal, ps4, gt sport). Or my brain is just not accepting the fact of in-game mechanics yet such as tire temp and how grip feels on the wheel input.
In general, grip is not really translating well to my brain yet, could someone guide where I am missing or I should look at?
6:51 I've also thought that the closer you get to slowing to a stop, the less brake pressure you need, like an exponential, if that makes sense
What about using throttle and break at the same time? I use it alot in gokarts
So your trail braking to allow the car to keep the set position through the turn.
This is the hard part of driving karts at rental places...
...all the brake behavior pattern and tire grip varies by kart. So if you dont know the kart, it takes actual time with each kart to learn the balance...plus the maintenance guys arent worried about that stuff.
Getting it right though is incredibly satisfying.
Loved the video, but that isn’t *why * they’re lying to us… it’s just showing that they are,
I’d imagine it’s a bandwidth thing? Or a rendering thing, idk
the other thing wrong with the telemetry on tv; it's always off by a couple miliseconds
I've noticed that, but why? Why do they remove 'analog' braking info?
This basically tells you, if your pedal goes to the floor, or nothing at all, you have a problem 😂😂😂
Great explanation, very similar to a motorcycle, with weight transfer under braking and the finesse of the brakes
It's criminal that F1 doesn't allow all the drivers to see each others braking technique in minute detail.
FYI the Jackery link doesn't work.
My track coach told me, "go slow to learn to go fast", do one of two things, "accelerate or break, if you do something else, get off my track"
Nice explanation of trail braking, skill they teach you at every good driving academy/racing school
What annoys me the most is when they simply can't be bothered syncing the audio with the video and the gear shifts don't line up.
I never even noticed it was on/off in the graphics
To summarise 8:30 into 0:30: "The graphic shows a binary on/off for the braking, instead of the graded braking drivers actually do"
Barely lying. It just shows viewers when the driver is braking. We don't need to know the Nm applied to the braking pedal, the translation into kilograms and for how long. We're happy with seeing that basic telemetry.
I've been questioning those pedal inputs since day 1.
I enjoy watching this channel. But if I may make a suggestion; the rest of your production is high quality, but the clips from your Sim (iRacing?) is very choppy and low quality. Not only this video, but many other videos when you use Sim Clips.
I appreciate not everyone has a powerful computer, but it would be better to run at a lower resolution and maintain at least 40-50fps to be smooth in processing, and even ACC can run very smoothly at 1440p or 4K with medium settings on most "average" gaming computers.
Thank you for making your content.
so is formula 1 tv brake meter using just an on or off measurement?
It's the same with simulators when we see other drivers cameras. Or when we see the replays. In the sim, brake pressure is never shown, only on-off. You can only see your own brake pedal, not anyone else's.
I guess there's a reason they all want to hide that information from us.
Sim trail braking depending on game is a huge difference, and soooo key versus real world.
Unfortunate they display brake as on or off rather than a scale
That being said, to complete the discussion of balancing the car through a corner, it should also be pointed out that when you are no longer braking but beginning to accelerate, you are now using the throttle to maintain the balance of the car through the latter portion of the corner in the reverse process of how the brake was used.
And just like some people treat the brake as a binary control with bad results, some people seem to treat the throttle the same way with also bad, and sometimes worse results.
Wish I'd seen this before my karting and track day attempts. Thanks.
I noticed this too and im annoyed by it every time it comes on screen. It could be a great addition if done correctly
Now I know how it's lying to me, but I still don't know why...
Brundle and Crofty they presented us with a pack of lies about the rules of the safety car procedure also somehow predicted 1 racing lap when it was supposed to finish behind the safety car
Surprised it wasnt mentioned why the graphics are lying.
My guess? It would give competitive information to other teams about the approach and handling of the corners, so they keep the braking graphic vague and inaccurate.
Dear Scott,
You are talking about lifting the brakes as an F1 example in regards to downforce decreasing.
This cannot be the same for none-F1 cars right?
Do you also lift the brakes as much in an Mazda Miata (MX5) with less weight, HP and RWD? And I am no Formula 1 driver, but how does the brake biast (or at least the percentage of breaking front:rear) impact this graph?
I am not native English, so sorry if I don’t use the correct terminology and I don’t need to know it to the exact details, but just roughly so I know my logic understanding can comprehend the way you explained it to all of us.
Great content! Thank you for explaining everything and this could be considered a Follow-Up question haha 😁.
Much love for the work!
Freek (Dutch name, Frederick is fine too)
Wow I never noticed this. I knew the graphic was not well time-synced based on the engine sound but this is fascinating
It's amazing the difference in lap time that can be achieved by learning good braking techniques and getting a feel for car balance going into a corner.
Some drivers I would suspect of using the brakes as an on/off switch.
2:56 Probably best not to tell outright lies in your ad spots. Jackery capacity is 3024 watt-hours, the 2x 200W included solar panels PEAK at 400 watts, which means that it would take 3024/400 = 7.5 hours under near-impossibly-ideal conditions to charge from the solar panels, assuming 100% round-trip charging efficiency. That's practically an entire day, not "just a few hours".
if i drive on a german highway, especially in the rain i need to do this in my road car already (a 2017 miata)
in a bend i slowly lift off the throttle and slowly brake, if i didnt do that coming in at 140mph i think id be in the barrier
is it just me or do modern car assist make people worse drivers? or that you should learn about things like the cars weight balance in driving school?
Thanks for explaining this...jesus i am going to have to change the way i drive in SIM (fairly new to sim). I always dive bomb into turns brake hard into the Apex, then quickly let off the brakes to accelerate. Works ok, and i do well, but i destroy my tires too soon. thanks for the great video, im going to work on doing this.
Can we get a nice pedal cam from you with real time brake inputs while we see where the car is turning in real life
"All the way from 100% down to 0% and everything in between" That should be your quote Scott.
I believe that F1 cars also respond slightly different. Many drivers have talked about stabbing the brake and coming off quickly for higher speed corners if I'm not wrong.
those advice really help me understand a bit more my driving in GT7
I always thought they just didn't show brake pressure for confidentiality reasons
This has always annoyed me, the telemetery graphics in WRC are definitely superior, they not only show brake pressure but also battery usage giving a much more full picture
if cars had 4 wheel steering with similar angle front and back, they would have same load on front and rear tire and max cornering speed would happen while just maintaining constant speed?
Also instead of lifting the rear interior wheel, you could technically lift both interior wheels and corner like a motorcycle at an extreme lean angle? 😮
I guess it would only make a big difference in really tight corners where the front wheels do have a significant steering angle and do corner around a significantly larger radius. but I'm still curious to see if it could allow to push the limits of cornering ? of course in F1 cornering speed comes from downforce but with car being aligned with it's instant speed I guess aero would work better too..
And I'm sitting here, trying to apply this to karting and only recently learned that while physics are the same (duh) the approach you need to have for a kart is completely different due to the kart not having a differential.
All of this is much understood and felt through so many of your body parts if you are on a motorcycle around a track or even your favorite twisty road at speed.
Great video. But It’s not lying, they have been open about it for years that it is not brake pressure and just on or off.
I love the reference to OVERDRIVE with being able to make a coffee with The Jackery