Climbing Quad Anchor break test with 6mm accessory cord
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2020
- We built a full quad anchor out of 6mm accessory cord that is only 6kn strong... and we're getting 32kn.
Chart of results is at the end of the video
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I think it's about time some climbing/slackline/ rescue equipment companies start getting into a "my shit is stronger" war and sponsor this channel...Come on everybody wins in that symbiotic relationship
Agreed!
If each viewer gave $20 for this film we could fund the channel for 1 year and give Ryan a modest salary. As a community, we can do more than the gear companies if we all come together to collectively sponsor Ryans' efforts with a cash donation and gear donations! Give what you can. Every $1 helps.
It's too risky for the companies. Not to mention that just because a peice of equipment has a higher MBS doesn't necessarily mean it's better or safer.
sheer static strength does not equal safety or effectiveness in the real world
Damn, quad anchors are legit! Cool to see how their redundancy functions!
When the EDK creeps, all the load ends up on the parallel non-knotted strand. A knot with less creep, like a pre-stressed double fisherman might make the whole assembly stronger before the initial failure.
Came here to say just this. Of course the quad was already very strong, but replacing that EDK with something that creeps less WOULD increase the breaking strength.
I`ve never donated to a TH-cam channel before, but yours has definitely helped me stay safe in the outdoors. I not only come here for great break tests, but also to see different methods of building anchors. Keep up the amazing work! PS: Do you sell "Instant Decaf coffee?!" ...I know...why would someone drink decaf hahaha
❤
Great work guys, fantastic to see these products being put to the test!
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL! Never stop, please. This is the content we all deserve
Thanks for doing this. It is great to see where this stuff breaks.
I’ve been watching a lot of your older and more recent videos lately. And they’re making me feel a lot more comfortable in the gear and anchors
Keep up the awesome work! i literally use (almost) this exact anchor while i climb and i love your guys's work and dedication :)
As a sailor, it's hardly a surprise that ropes break at the knots. Knots constrict the ropes and weakens it. Climbers use some weird knots too that I would never, ever use on a boat. Climbing is of course a completely different thing, but the forces from a 10 ton boat tugging on the moorings in a storm are pretty intense.
Nobody is surprised that it breaks at the knots. The test is to determine the actual forces required to break them and how well the redundancy works. Knots are different because they require far more from their use besides of what force their deal with.
Using double fisherman's instead if edk on quad might actually make it stronger, the edk was slipping which loaded the other loop more.
Also testing edk with extra overhang as stopper would be interesting, to see what the knot strength is.
The EDK is literally only used to join two ropes for a 2 rope rappel and even then it should be backed up with another flat overhand and at least 8" of tail to accommodate the knot rolling over multiple times like it did in the video. The flat overhand knot has been tested and proven to be 30% weaker than a double fisherman's when tying two ropes together.
@@derekatwood6236 yes, an EDK/flat overhand is not a suitable knot when the two strands pull away from each other, since it will roll off the end of the rope. On a two rope rappel the EDK (should) sit on top of the karabiner and so the strands pull in the same direction. see here for some break tests: th-cam.com/video/GQn9m8ehffw/w-d-xo.html
Some people want to be able to untie their cordalette loop for some anchor setups, and double fisherman's (while definitely the standard for strength) can be quite difficult to untie after being loaded heavily. One alternative which is stronger than the flat overhand and doesn't roll but still allow easier untying than a double fishermans is the offset barrel knot (also called the double overhand) as discussed here: th-cam.com/video/GQn9m8ehffw/w-d-xo.html
Sweet content fellas and thanks for taking the time to assemble and share it. So love watching others break Their Gear! Ha.
Helps build my confidence in anchor setups
These old videos are fun to comeback and watch
Really nice insights from this one!! Thank you so much ✌️
Truly the best channel!
Thanks for doing this testing!
awesome. always wondered about the break strength of a quad. crazy strong.
That's an awesome test. Well done.
Cool and informative as always!
Thanks !
please do a quad made from dyneema slings as well!
Would be cool to see from dynema rope as well! www.rei.com/product/118268/bluewater-5mm-titan-dyneema-cord-20-ft
clayton... pm me on fb
I'd love to see it! I'm a big fan of using dyneema slings over accessory cord simply to save space/weight, but I'd love to see the strength difference (of course, you'll likely die before you exert this much force on either material)
@@HowNOT2 Yes Dyneema, please do a mini quad anchor
www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/the-mini-quad-anchor
so good! thanks for doing these guys!
Great video, lots to learn from seeing these different failure modes. I would be interested to see what the breaking strength would have been of the single loop closed with the European Death Knot with one of the tails tied in a blocker so that the knot cannot walk it's self off the end of the tails. This is how i have been taught to implement that knot by the sierra club courses. It would both be interesting to see how the knot reacts as well as provide a comparison point to the double fisherman's version to see the difference in knot factor between the two.
Thanks for the great content.
I’d be really interested in a comparative test of different knots…
"I'm not sure where this one's from - maybe Wild Country"
Cries in previous generation Petzl Spirits
Perrfect. Thank you, guys. 😊
Awesome test man. I'd be curious to see the results of the different types of anchors using 6mm cord, quad vs cordelette w/ big ass knot vs equalette. And then also see how much stronger a 7mm cord would be.
Thx guys!
Nice. I use a quad but I use a 3 wrap fisherman's to join them (3 wraps on each rope). Flat overhands slip and you should always tie 2 of them as a result, especially for joining 2 main ropes (Bob Gaines book talks about this IIRC). One to slip the other to block.
Super interesting video, that broke way higher than I expected. One test i'd love to see done is the same, but tying the join (EDK or double fisherman's) in the centre rather than the legs that go to the bolts. In your tests it seems the loop that runs alongside the knot is always first to go, suggesting the knot slip causes higher load on the other strand. Tying it with the knot in the centre and clipping the other 3 strands i'd suggest may be even stronger. Thanks guys, awesome content as ever.
You''re likely right but it'd be compromising redundancy. If a bolt fails during a fall, the single unclipped strand gets shock-loaded and I wouldn't want that strand to be the one with a knot in it.
Thanks!
Great video! Thank you.
Great video. Thanks
At 12:25 as soon as the knot started to set and stretch a little bit, most of the force was transferred to the other line on that side, guaranteeing that that one would see the most force out of the 4 sets of loops. I think maybe setting a knot that slipped less, and also making the loop that the knot is in tighter than the knotted loop would even out the force so both strands are helping the whole time.
Dyneema slings would be awesome to test. Especially one that is girth hitched like it would be around your harness..First just loop slings, then a daisy chain, etc.
Very good, see all senario wanted to see, thanks
Awesome! Thanks!
Nice! If you get around to testing this with a hardline cord from edelrid that breaks at 22kn at baseline, that'd be sweet!
Yes ! Thank you.... : )
Great video! You could try a Two strand quad or equalette! Also with dyneema or cord
Awesome videos you are making😊 i could love to see you test more anchor setup. I normaly use a equalized dynema with a overhand knot masterpoint. How does that compair with cordlett anchor?
keep up the good work👍
Idk if many ppl know this however when you equal the forces on anchors that are not right next to each other you multiply the force on the actors, this only really matters when your anchor setup has more than 90degrees of angle
Great stuff thanks!!
This made me wayyyy more comfy with 6mm cord but I’m still sticking with my 7mm, just for those few extra KN (like my back will actually need them).
Have you guys thought about filming with a thermal/FLIR camera? I think there would be great imagery and valuable data to be had. Keep up the great work!
I'd love to see how the climbing rope clove-hitched into a carabiner on a quad anchor behaves under extreme forces! (say the belayer on top of a pitch gets dragged down by a giant rock, what fails second after their back gives up the ghost?)
Love the climbing related content!
Thanks for your sharing 👍
I was wondering when you set up a highline with a backup (obviously) and have 2 different webbings. Would you put the stronger webbing as a main or backup? Of yourse you want to minimise the chance of fail but also maximise the strength of a backup to not die. (Also the weaker webbing I have is Leviathan from Slackhouse which is really nice to walk because of how soft and dull the material is.)
I often tell my students that overhand knot is as good as double fisherman's knot when it comes to joining 2 ropes for abseiling off a multi pitches climb. But I don't have any numbers to proof my point. Would be really informative show the strength both of them holds. thanks
The zeppelin bend in another good one. Almost no slip and easier to untie after loaded.
I read some people use an Alpine butterfly.
I'd like to see some pull tests on all the different bends. As well as how easy they are to untie after, say, 5kn.
Great test . How about dual anchor loops , old school self equalizing multiple anchors ( double bowlines and bowline on bight , ) ?
I love the quad! I use a blue water titan cord so I feel like it’s super good enough! I was wondering if the quad could be tied by using a limiting knot as the knot that joins the ends? No EDK or fisherman, just tie the ends within the limiting knot. If that even makes sense!?
What type of steel carabiners were used here ? A link would be good thanks
without reading through all comments, I just wanna say that I dont understand why anyone would join their cordelette for an anchor using the so called EDK. EDK became EDK because of misuse. it is for joining two rope strands to abseil full length on half/twin ropes.
joining the two ends of a cordelette would be better using a figure eight bend.
anyway, I love your videos and tests, keep up the good work.
would love to see if you only use 2 strands as that is how we use it. 2 for the belayer and 2 for the climber. and then see if on a multipitch the direction of force in a fall, as in when leading from an anchor makes much difference.
Niiiice! Thanks for braking!
I love to watch ur Videos, Guys....is it possible to get some high Quality Microfones? The sound is aweful. But the Content is great
If you try dyneema- can you try and get the force vs distance curve? This will give total energy dissipation, which is likely to be the most different aspect vs nylon (and most important aspect when coupled with a dynamic rope).
7:20... that is why you clip 2 strands, not 3.
Great content! I'd like to see sliding X with limiter knots loaded after one piece fails. Will NOT doubled-up sling be enough with limiter knots around?
i guess that is what a dyneema quad is.... an x with limiter knots. It did perform well. that video coming soon
CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CHAPEAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BEST WISHES.
Just FYI the right side of the anchor saw closer to 16800 kn when it broke.
You can use this calculation (32500x0.5/cos(30x0.5)
32500 can be replaced by load at centre point
30 is the angle of the anchor (roughly)
A wider angle will break alot earlier
I got to learn how to do that quad anchor thing
First test outside with the braking at the knot may depend a lot of the way the quad is done, it is hard to get both rope strand perfectly even, one will always take more load. Double fisherman knot seams a lot better but it surprised me how much load they were able to put on the knot they did. I use to clip 3 strands of the quad normally to anchor my rope and I was wondering if clipping one carabiner on 2 strand and the other one on the 2 other strands was better, looks like this video show a little improvement for the second option, it is also getting better results in the catastrophe case one of bolt fail. In reality both version are way stronger than needed, specially with the use of a cordelette, but I like to feel more secure even if it is useless. I would like to get the exact same testing with different model of slings
would love to see a cordlette made of 5 or 6 mm dyneema cord. This is increasingly popular as its higher strength and thinner / lighter than standard cord.
May be interesting. I have some Bluewater Titan cord on the way-5.5mm cord with dyneema core. May have to make a quad and see how it goes
TEST SUGGESTION
On the indoor test where three strands clipped, it would be interesting to see what happens if only one belay anchor was clipped. This would simulate a fail of second anchor. It would offer a scenario where there is potential for everything to load into the one strand side, rather than the three strand side. Any thoughts?
That EDK basically removes any strength from those strands since its rolls so bad, hence that side failed. EDK strikes again!
I forgot my rope at home, and see all these great rocks around me that are just asking for it! I did bring 80 feet of type 2 webbing... gets me to thinking... Let's do a climb-with-your-slackline-webbing video. Now that I have health insurance, I can do anything.
If you add an additional loop to the quad does it make it stronger?
Kinda curious about breaking str and stretch of core vs sheath. And when rope fails, where does the failure start. That is just in lab conditions, all things that could change numbers, like knots and corners. I know when combined the core and sheath affect each other, so just curious about separate properties.
that poor rope I would love to have some of the shit you break b4 you break it would be nice stuff for me but glad you do what you do so we feel safer THANKS RYAN AND BOBBY
I find single loops of 6mm cord in a fisherman’s all the time as anchor pieces and rap stations
Can you test the slack inov' evo kit with valdotain break ?
I'd really be curious to know the breaking point difference between an alpine butterfly vs a directional 8
Is there a difference between fast tightened and slow tightened knots? what if you hold a knot tight for too long?
How are the soft shackles so much stronger?
Any chance you’ve done this with titan or some other super strength cord?
Top Video 👍 so should you use a 6mm cord instead of a dynema Sling for an anchor belaying? (Multipitch) 🤔
spoiler alert. dyneema quads were stronger :)
Just an observation: When you tested the double fisherman's, it appeared that you used the same piece of rope from the previous test. This piece of rope had already been stressed. I don't know if this influenced your results?
Even so these cords via quad are bulletproof.
that final failure is a reason to separate your strands 2 and 2, instead of 3 and 1
Is the slacksnap chart still available somewhere?
I can't find it
If u want the FOB or EDK to not roll, take one tail and do a single overhand around the other strand.
Still wondering why you clip 3 strands on your quad. That removes one of the key advantages of the quad, and you saw that failure. If you had clipped two lines in the masterpoint, it would have had to break both of those lines and you'd have seen higher than 15 kN on the "redundant" test.
Also, using a EDK on your quad instead of double fisherman's?
Flat overhand is the way to go if you ask me... That way you can more quickly and easily untie it and have the full length of cord to use for other scenarios ( sling a boulder, etc...) Double fisherman's gets welded shut and you're stuck with the length that it's tied at.
I'm with you on the other point... Not sure why they clipped 3 strands on the quad.
@@mcfjk3 I`ve been using double fishermans for some 5-6 years now, and rarily does it welds shut from standard stuff. And EVEN if it does, you dedicated that cord to that quad,
but i think whatever you are using, you are never going to create such force to break it, in a rock climbing scenario.
I thought the same. Makes no sense to rig that way.
Why does no one else use Figure 8's to bend?
@@johnboling Figure-8 rolls under low load when used on a cord like this. Flat overhand/EDK does not (as easily)....
Hey, i would be interested in the maximum load these loop aliens can take.
Of course they're not for highlining or climbing but i always wondered what these little things can handle and since you have a test rig... :D
I work in a climbing gym. Got a mix of old dog bones that have been hanging on the wall for abt 15 years. Some used, some never saw any weight. If you would like to break test them, how do I send it to you.
Would love to see a test of the beefy petzl (or another brand) dogbones and the skinny skinny dyneema dogbones!
You mentioned it before. I'd like to see doubled up sliding x dyneema
pm me on facebook and i'll give you a sneak peak... got to guess the KN first :)
facebook.com/ryan.jenks.35
@@HowNOT2
Sent you a pm!
My initial guess is 92kn
But I after a much of thought I think it's going to be over 100
For Kn I’m guessing in the high 20s I’m worried about the knots.
So I guess it's a bad idea to make a few quickdraws with static cord? I often wonder why? Any reply appreciated cheers?
crazy how that flat overhand nearly rolled right off the end, what they say is true. Curious about flat figure 8's rolling.
So freakin cool, dam it...
12:31 Are you zero-ing with the dyno under load?
I'd like to see a quad (double fishermans loop) with just one aluminum locker on 2 strands as a master point.
Great test. This one was aching to be tested.
if under load, i turn off peak and turn peak back on. when i hit zero it was not under load
Do ATC's or GriGri's / other belay devices break first?
Would love to see a quad made from dyneema sling
Also, wouldn't the slippage of the overhand be beneficial in some respects that it stops it from breaking?
coming soooooon
Wait why did you put the carabiners through 3 of the 4 ropes instead of half. Wouldn’t that be better so that if it did break you would now still be on two strands instead of one? Or is three better because then you are on three before a break instead of just two, making the redundancy useless?
shouldn't the carabiners be oriented outwards from one another?
Could you break a wrap 3 pull 2 webbing anchor
Have you guys tested a Metolius anchor chain?
"so i don't want to get too closer to this..." \*gets closer\*
i can't help it like a bug to light
you were right a flat overhand is an EDK
Am I missing something? The knot appears to be intact after the first break. Did the first break (5:45) really occur on the knot, or did it break where the cord contacts the carabiner?
Great video as always, it's nice to see that I can trust my quad anchor!
Ahhh, the first break occurred at the limiter knot, not the euro death knot. That makes sense! I thought I was going crazy
After re-re-watching... Again... I do not believe the first break occurred at either the euro death, or limiter knot. I do believe the first break occurred at the carabiner.
I think the stretch yield at the EDK shifted load to the other loop on that side, so it broke first.
Well... taking the time to close your loop with fishermans is apparently worth time, I guess.
Timothé Verrette seemed the most learned thing from this video to me, I don’t get why he said that it wouldn’t have mattered if they would have used the fisherman’s on the quad test because it failed at the limiter knot. Every where I have read the fishermen’s is recommended for joining two ropes, I thought this video suggests the same. I would be more interested to see how tying the fishermen’s(and other) knot effects the break, different tail lengths(how short is too short), if the tail is used again for stopper, if the knot is properly dressed. People often seem to use the appropriate knot but the results are not always the same. Would be nice to see more examples of how well you tie the knot effects things.
@@iangottmusic the only time you'd want to use the EDK is rappelling, and even then, only when you're worried about the rope snagging in cracks or branches (the knot tends to ride over snags more easily).
I've never seen anyone use one on a quad anchor before.
@@simonsimon9880 There are many sources that say to use a double EDK instead of a single. It has the same advantages of riding over snags, without the disadvantage of unrolling and dumping you to your death. (And yes, it does unroll, as seen here, and even more so when wet, or in slippery rope, or when tied loosely.)