That tracks. He can use every discipline at its highest potency, being level 10. He can quite literally do shit no kindred unliving in the world today can even fathom. Even the antediluvians pale in comparison
@@DrPinkieDie He doesn't even need disciplines from where he's at. His power is just "Plot Device" lmao. Unless he's literally going to bat against God himself (or whatever equivalent incarnation of incomprehensible divinity you want to slot in that place), he fucking wins.
@@glueboy Yeah, my thoughts exactly. God didn’t really give him a choice when it came to wandering the earth. It was either that or off with your head. Furthermore, the flood? If I’m thinking correctly, that was God basically telling Caine to stop trying to make his unlife comfortable, like “So you’ve built a pretty good thing here, huh? WELL GUESS WHAT SHITHEAD!” May also explain why he doesn’t do anything in the modern nights. God always slaps him back down if he tries to do anything major, so instead he just sleeps all the time.
Depending on my mood or various ideas. I would add in revelations where Caine's true origins are revealed. Where I would reveal that he was not the third person to ever exist or the first murderer. And Caine was not even his true name, but a title given to him when he fed on everyone in the first city and decided to turn them all into Vampires as his new people giving the Second Generation more in numbers. Where he was just a caveman from a very long time ago who sacrificed his brother to the Wyrm and got immortality out of it, only to realize that he is to forever be a puppet to Cosmic Horror Entities that even Gods are afraid of. That's one example I would go with sometimes. Sometimes I would tie in Mage where I would make him an Awakened Mage from a clan of Mages that escaped the doomed continent of Atlantis long before the rise of recorded history, in a Hyborian way. Sometimes I would go more Highlander with Caine's origins where he was the last of an ancient Non-Homo Sapien Pre-Vampiric race that cannibalized each other through diablerie, and his brother was his last victim, and from the consumption of his people, Caine metamorphosized into a more powerful spectral blood hungry entity that needed a host body and chose a dead body to inhabit and possess to spread the curse of cyclical cannibalism again where there can only be one when Gehenna finally arrives. Those are just some ideas I go with. I would try to go more ancient, eldritch, and Lovecraftian with Caine's origins and make his Abrahamic origins as one interpretation among many that is based on a tiny grain of truth that became multiple mythologies among many cultures as time went on. I would even make Caine the founder of many more clans, and only the 13 are the only clans that have survived in the modern era that are currently known. I would make Caine the founder of the Ministry of Set, where he is given the title of Set by his Egyptian Vampires when he left the first city for a time. I would try ways to unify all mythologies to make the World of Darkness not be so focused on the Abrahamic mythologies. I would even change the origins of Demons from Demon the Fallen. Where Angels and Demons are not high spirits created by the Abrahamic God. I would make them Mages that belonged to a clan where half of them submitted to the God Machine and became Angellic Monstrosities that lacked free will and became machines to the Lovecraftian entity; and Demons were once Mages who refused to surrender their free will, got banished to the Abyss by their fellow Mages, and became corrupted by the Wyrm to serve their new master to bring the destruction of the world.
Sounds like a fun way to lay down a cool mystery for the players. That and I get the want to separate more from the Christian angle. I love it cause I enjoy hyper religious stuff that twists it somehow but it isnt for everyone.
My feeling is that the Angels didn't understand humans in General by that token don't understand Caine even more. Caine, my feeling knew that his childer would never get a chance to have redemption. The only Gift that was accepted was Gabriel because his childer were included this gift. Caine doesn't like the vampires in general. Caine like the 2nd generation most and with the exception of individual kindred.
Your interpretation of the parable of Caine and Abel is flawed. Caine's sacrifice was not rejected because it wasn't meat, it was rejected because it wasn't his best and most loved. He took that jealousy he felt for his brother and interpreted God's request for the best and most loved of his crop to mean his best and most loved of anything. And what, after all, could Caine possibly love more than his brother? His truest sin was to take his own jealousy and resentment and turn it, in his mind, into God's sin. God asked him to do this, it must be the right thing to do, for why else would God have asked? Of course, he knew what he did, because he denies it, stating that he is not his brother's keeper when challenged, and ultimately releasing sin into the world as covered in Demon: the Fallen. Caine is the first betrayer, and he begets betrayal. Ultimately, every kindred is the childe of their greatest grandsire, destined to betray and, like in the second city, taste betrayal at the hands of their fellow kindred and childer. Removing this from the story and making it God's sin removes this theme from the game. Incidentally, if you pronounce that guy's name as HOOTCHlee-ahPOOCHlee, it's pretty well close enough.
Theres some truth to that lol. I still stand by that part of what went into the murder was the fact God was very particular about more blood related sacrifices. It was commented on a lot in the Fragments book. Though also in rereading it what you're explaining is true. I def could have explained it better. Also very much appreciate that pronunciation help lol
That and the other vampires commenting on the text in the same story. It makes sense they would be preoccupied with the whole blood aspect lol. Though I'm also projecting more of my own personal World of Darkness in this video. I'm a fan of subverting religion (especially Christianity) to be darker as someone who was raised very religious and isnt anymore. So I like the idea of God being this darker, and more bloodthirsty deity. Especially cause Old Testament god was a lot more down for murder. I do appreciate hearing different perspectives on my own interpretation though. Since it means I can just strengthen the WoD I deliver in these videos and for the players at my Chronicle I'm making. And just means I should read into some of the source books deeper to see if my interpretations hold up under scrutiny for these videos. As much as I believe there isnt an official WoD I don't wanna straight up lie on my channel. Yeah lol, long way of saying I'm keeping my own interpretation true in my own games but agree that it doesnt hold up entirely to the official sources.
@@glueboy Not to psychoanalyze, but do you think you might suffer from the same bias against Christianity that Cainites might suffer against a punished them for their sins? Im presuming you feel wronged by Christianity, and I am not saying that there's no reason to, but suppose you're ascribing the fallibility of religious people to some sinister nature in God? Whatever you feel about a church, an ideology or a faith, it's worth it to try to understand it from the practicioner's perspective, even if you think they're wrong. Especially if you think they're wrong. If only for the sake of your story, when you don't offer your players an alternative explanation or motive from your own preferred bias, you remove their agency. At that point, you might as well just do creative writing because you're not letting them roleplay, you're just forcing them to act out characters in your story. Or you could play Candela Obscura xD
@@kdolo1887 Nah bro, thinking a bit too much into it lol. I just think that the idea would be cool and while its a bit loose of a comparison, inspired more from Gnosticism. I'm also a 40k fan, so ascribing religious shit to be darker is kinda the main deal there. I don't feel wronged by something I don't believe in I just think the style is cool. WoD does this in a fun way by keeping the general stories intact but they're just human interpretations of supernatural creatures or events. As someone who views religious texts as a great method to study the communities who wrote them I adore this. Also weird to try and ascribe my personal takeaway from a read on Caine as me taking away player agency lol. I get the throughline but it just isnt the case here man. Just because something might be the case lore wise in my game doesnt mean thats what the players or npcs have to believe? My 1 major rule as a GM of any game I run is to ensure player fun. So if shit deviates from their actions and the whole table wants to do something or even fully believes in something I didnt intend or plan for? I shift so they can continue having fun. I don't expect people to know this just from my videos or some comments but as someone who is deeply introspective on my own beliefs, habits, and my personal practices you're way off mark here.
Bro's got the Isstvan 3 shirt 😂 Edit: I'm not making fun of him, I love 30k, I just think that it's hilarious that something as obscure as 30k has a shirt.
I adore WoD in the same way I enjoy 40k. They're both a massive and expansive setting with way too much lore. As well depending on the writing can either be genuinely depressing, goofy with all the crossovers, or absolutely metal as fuck.
Whaaaat? Nah man its fine. We just shifted all the fire teams around and all the main higher ups in command are staying on the ship! Nothing shifty about that at all.
@glueboy plot point or no that would've been so cool to figure out on my own. I would've been mind blown, but now I just know and you took that from me.
Yes they are. Both in current and older editions of the game actually. Since the metaplot has multiple timelines technically. In the older editions where characters that appear in the games are then in other books (Mainly Beckett in the book 'Beckett's Jyhad Diary'). Who then reference the events of VtM Bloodlines. Though these then immediately transition into the end of the world scenarios. Which do then give a lot more credence to Caine being in LA during the events of Bloodlines actually. Since Caine is aware of the events of the story. And he is familiar with both Beckett and Jack. This hasnt even been retconned. The core book for V5 has lore sheets of characters from Bloodlines. Like Jeanette/Therese. To be even more overt. The live play series LA by Night does fully reference and base its story off the aftermath of the events of the game. And that series is canon. From a business standpoint it would be a pretty bad move to not have these popular games not contribute to the metaplot in any way. Especially when the sourcebooks have been treating them as such for this entire time. Pretty sure even the game before it was canon to the VtM Dark Ages setting as well. Though I'm less familiar with that setting than I am with the modern nights admittedly.
While you were talking about the different theories, I was pondering that doesn't Bloodlines essentially validate one of those theories. Masterful gambit at the end there. Boo modesty, there is only being right.
*This Gangrel sees. This Gangrel likes. This Gangrel subs* 🐺🤘 The fact that you referred to Beckett as the coolest isn't lost on me either. This was a fun video. I'm surprised you haven't gone all 'Malk' on us trying to interpret the varied lores and histories on our favourite "Dark Father." Thanks for this. The amount of work you had to put into this is appreciated.
Happy to see VtM stuff, I've always wanted to join one of those big discord RP servers based on the setting but it overwhelmed me. Any chance you're gonna branch out into other world of darkness systems? I'd kill for someone to talk about Mage
Mage is 100% on the list. I adore Mage the only real issue is I have to track down a bunch of books. Pdfs arent as easy to find so more than likely I'd have to buy them. Mainly cause the wiki is great at citing the books, but the info they give isnt enough detail for me to understand everything.
@@glueboy you should totally cover Changeling. It is so much fun (even if the system sucks). Like the powers in Changeling are so fun, and the system is super queer
I plan to cover every game at some point. Though fey stuff has never fully been my cup of tea so its probably later. The first more obscure one I plan to delve into is Demon the Fallen
TH-cam didn't give me a notification for this video >:( I'm afraid that this is the algorithm's punishment for having the AUDACITY to branch out and cover more than one subject Whatever, the TH-cam algorithm is dumb and your VtM videos are always dope. Also, the sheer gigachad energy at the end of the video was just *chef's kiss* perfection
I plan to! I love the other settings in wod. Only issue is the stuff that isnt VtM or Werewolf is a bit harder to get my hands on lol. I wanna cover Mage but cant drop the cash on the 20th core book rn.
Straight up don't know who would win that... Antediluvian power scaling would be on some 40k shit. Like the most recent awaking of Zapathasura during the Week of Nightmares makes me think the 3rd generation would be on Primarch level. It took multiple spirit nukes and full on sunlight satellite lasers (and a good number of them too) to even kill him. So then amplify that to Caine's level and it might be even against Big E lol
@@publiopaolacci495 To be clear, the multiple nukes didnt kill Zapathasura. Even though they were spiritual and wreaked some havoc in the underworld. It killed the members of his clan and weakened a barrier in place so they could angle all the sunlight lasers at him. It took a LOT. Which sounds about right for most primarchs. Even the daemon primarchs can be killed by non primarchs. It just takes a fuckton of firepower.
Personally I think Caine beats big E depending on whether or not he has blood. Cause he has like 10 or higher fortitude and is probably faster than big E with Celerity 10+. Like everyone sleeps on Caine cause he would probs be squishier than big E, but I would argue he would be able to put maneuver big E. The only problem would be Psychic attacks, which I am not entirely sure if there is a power to prevent that. Edit: I forgor, he would also have like 10 willpower, which would probably block at least some Psychic stuff, so imo Caine has a shot.
@@Robinsky-o2n Only issue with a Caine sweep is just Emp's weaponry and psychic abilities. Since he's got the whole flaming sword and can most definitely do some strong fire. Which is a major Kindred weakness. That and I feel like Emps could make some form of artificial sun effect if he wanted to. Man likes his bright gold stuff. I'm still in the camp that its an even fight, but the fact that these two could even be in a debate says a lot lol.
Caine is driving for Uber these days.
Caine out here adapting better to the modern nights than most of the Camarilla
Either that or he's just driving around in a Tesla Checker Yellow Cab.
Based Bloodlines fan theory reference.
More like Lyft 😂
IIRC when asked for stats for Cain White Wolf just respond with: You Lose.
Based lol
That tracks. He can use every discipline at its highest potency, being level 10. He can quite literally do shit no kindred unliving in the world today can even fathom. Even the antediluvians pale in comparison
@@DrPinkieDie He doesn't even need disciplines from where he's at. His power is just "Plot Device" lmao. Unless he's literally going to bat against God himself (or whatever equivalent incarnation of incomprehensible divinity you want to slot in that place), he fucking wins.
In Bloodlines, he was testing the entirety of Kin off of the actions of its youngest member
The reason he denied the angels is because their “forgiveness” involved him dying no matter what. He didn’t want to die, so obviously he said no
Honestly fair lol
@@glueboy Yeah, my thoughts exactly. God didn’t really give him a choice when it came to wandering the earth. It was either that or off with your head.
Furthermore, the flood? If I’m thinking correctly, that was God basically telling Caine to stop trying to make his unlife comfortable, like “So you’ve built a pretty good thing here, huh? WELL GUESS WHAT SHITHEAD!”
May also explain why he doesn’t do anything in the modern nights. God always slaps him back down if he tries to do anything major, so instead he just sleeps all the time.
Depending on my mood or various ideas. I would add in revelations where Caine's true origins are revealed. Where I would reveal that he was not the third person to ever exist or the first murderer. And Caine was not even his true name, but a title given to him when he fed on everyone in the first city and decided to turn them all into Vampires as his new people giving the Second Generation more in numbers. Where he was just a caveman from a very long time ago who sacrificed his brother to the Wyrm and got immortality out of it, only to realize that he is to forever be a puppet to Cosmic Horror Entities that even Gods are afraid of. That's one example I would go with sometimes. Sometimes I would tie in Mage where I would make him an Awakened Mage from a clan of Mages that escaped the doomed continent of Atlantis long before the rise of recorded history, in a Hyborian way. Sometimes I would go more Highlander with Caine's origins where he was the last of an ancient Non-Homo Sapien Pre-Vampiric race that cannibalized each other through diablerie, and his brother was his last victim, and from the consumption of his people, Caine metamorphosized into a more powerful spectral blood hungry entity that needed a host body and chose a dead body to inhabit and possess to spread the curse of cyclical cannibalism again where there can only be one when Gehenna finally arrives. Those are just some ideas I go with. I would try to go more ancient, eldritch, and Lovecraftian with Caine's origins and make his Abrahamic origins as one interpretation among many that is based on a tiny grain of truth that became multiple mythologies among many cultures as time went on. I would even make Caine the founder of many more clans, and only the 13 are the only clans that have survived in the modern era that are currently known. I would make Caine the founder of the Ministry of Set, where he is given the title of Set by his Egyptian Vampires when he left the first city for a time. I would try ways to unify all mythologies to make the World of Darkness not be so focused on the Abrahamic mythologies. I would even change the origins of Demons from Demon the Fallen. Where Angels and Demons are not high spirits created by the Abrahamic God. I would make them Mages that belonged to a clan where half of them submitted to the God Machine and became Angellic Monstrosities that lacked free will and became machines to the Lovecraftian entity; and Demons were once Mages who refused to surrender their free will, got banished to the Abyss by their fellow Mages, and became corrupted by the Wyrm to serve their new master to bring the destruction of the world.
Sounds like a fun way to lay down a cool mystery for the players. That and I get the want to separate more from the Christian angle. I love it cause I enjoy hyper religious stuff that twists it somehow but it isnt for everyone.
Paragraph breaks dude, please start using them xD
My feeling is that the Angels didn't understand humans in General by that token don't understand Caine even more. Caine, my feeling knew that his childer would never get a chance to have redemption. The only Gift that was accepted was Gabriel because his childer were included this gift.
Caine doesn't like the vampires in general. Caine like the 2nd generation most and with the exception of individual kindred.
Your shirt...
Poor Rylanor... (Okay, now to watch the video..)
Your interpretation of the parable of Caine and Abel is flawed. Caine's sacrifice was not rejected because it wasn't meat, it was rejected because it wasn't his best and most loved. He took that jealousy he felt for his brother and interpreted God's request for the best and most loved of his crop to mean his best and most loved of anything. And what, after all, could Caine possibly love more than his brother? His truest sin was to take his own jealousy and resentment and turn it, in his mind, into God's sin. God asked him to do this, it must be the right thing to do, for why else would God have asked? Of course, he knew what he did, because he denies it, stating that he is not his brother's keeper when challenged, and ultimately releasing sin into the world as covered in Demon: the Fallen.
Caine is the first betrayer, and he begets betrayal. Ultimately, every kindred is the childe of their greatest grandsire, destined to betray and, like in the second city, taste betrayal at the hands of their fellow kindred and childer. Removing this from the story and making it God's sin removes this theme from the game.
Incidentally, if you pronounce that guy's name as HOOTCHlee-ahPOOCHlee, it's pretty well close enough.
Theres some truth to that lol. I still stand by that part of what went into the murder was the fact God was very particular about more blood related sacrifices. It was commented on a lot in the Fragments book. Though also in rereading it what you're explaining is true. I def could have explained it better.
Also very much appreciate that pronunciation help lol
@@glueboy Well, consider The perspective in The Erciyes Fragments. I have no doubt Caine sees it that way, but he's an unreliable narrator at best.
That and the other vampires commenting on the text in the same story. It makes sense they would be preoccupied with the whole blood aspect lol. Though I'm also projecting more of my own personal World of Darkness in this video. I'm a fan of subverting religion (especially Christianity) to be darker as someone who was raised very religious and isnt anymore. So I like the idea of God being this darker, and more bloodthirsty deity. Especially cause Old Testament god was a lot more down for murder.
I do appreciate hearing different perspectives on my own interpretation though. Since it means I can just strengthen the WoD I deliver in these videos and for the players at my Chronicle I'm making. And just means I should read into some of the source books deeper to see if my interpretations hold up under scrutiny for these videos. As much as I believe there isnt an official WoD I don't wanna straight up lie on my channel. Yeah lol, long way of saying I'm keeping my own interpretation true in my own games but agree that it doesnt hold up entirely to the official sources.
@@glueboy Not to psychoanalyze, but do you think you might suffer from the same bias against Christianity that Cainites might suffer against a punished them for their sins? Im presuming you feel wronged by Christianity, and I am not saying that there's no reason to, but suppose you're ascribing the fallibility of religious people to some sinister nature in God?
Whatever you feel about a church, an ideology or a faith, it's worth it to try to understand it from the practicioner's perspective, even if you think they're wrong. Especially if you think they're wrong. If only for the sake of your story, when you don't offer your players an alternative explanation or motive from your own preferred bias, you remove their agency. At that point, you might as well just do creative writing because you're not letting them roleplay, you're just forcing them to act out characters in your story. Or you could play Candela Obscura xD
@@kdolo1887 Nah bro, thinking a bit too much into it lol. I just think that the idea would be cool and while its a bit loose of a comparison, inspired more from Gnosticism. I'm also a 40k fan, so ascribing religious shit to be darker is kinda the main deal there. I don't feel wronged by something I don't believe in I just think the style is cool. WoD does this in a fun way by keeping the general stories intact but they're just human interpretations of supernatural creatures or events. As someone who views religious texts as a great method to study the communities who wrote them I adore this.
Also weird to try and ascribe my personal takeaway from a read on Caine as me taking away player agency lol. I get the throughline but it just isnt the case here man. Just because something might be the case lore wise in my game doesnt mean thats what the players or npcs have to believe? My 1 major rule as a GM of any game I run is to ensure player fun. So if shit deviates from their actions and the whole table wants to do something or even fully believes in something I didnt intend or plan for? I shift so they can continue having fun. I don't expect people to know this just from my videos or some comments but as someone who is deeply introspective on my own beliefs, habits, and my personal practices you're way off mark here.
Accurate representation of what Cain and WOD represents. 👌🏼
Bro's got the Isstvan 3 shirt 😂
Edit: I'm not making fun of him, I love 30k, I just think that it's hilarious that something as obscure as 30k has a shirt.
I love playing as the Tzi, cause the Antediluvian can just take you over for any reason. Lol Malks are also fun.
It’s Morbin time
Morbius is definitely a Gangrel
Loved the video. You give an honest and wholesome energy. I will subscribe to you. :>
Interesting to see a WH40k shirt on a guy talking about WoD.
I adore WoD in the same way I enjoy 40k. They're both a massive and expansive setting with way too much lore. As well depending on the writing can either be genuinely depressing, goofy with all the crossovers, or absolutely metal as fuck.
Love the shirt. However; something tells me I should steer clear of Isstvan.
Whaaaat? Nah man its fine. We just shifted all the fire teams around and all the main higher ups in command are staying on the ship! Nothing shifty about that at all.
@@glueboy Well, I did hear that place is the Bomb. What's the worst that could happen?
Vampy daddy
Dude! I'm playing through bloodlines. F you for spoiling that >:(
Damn, at least theres a lot more major twists in the story? The Caine thing is much more implied with larger vtm lore than an actual plot point.
@glueboy plot point or no that would've been so cool to figure out on my own. I would've been mind blown, but now I just know and you took that from me.
Enlil is evil and enki is Good
But the VTM video games are not canon.
Yes they are. Both in current and older editions of the game actually. Since the metaplot has multiple timelines technically. In the older editions where characters that appear in the games are then in other books (Mainly Beckett in the book 'Beckett's Jyhad Diary'). Who then reference the events of VtM Bloodlines. Though these then immediately transition into the end of the world scenarios. Which do then give a lot more credence to Caine being in LA during the events of Bloodlines actually. Since Caine is aware of the events of the story. And he is familiar with both Beckett and Jack.
This hasnt even been retconned. The core book for V5 has lore sheets of characters from Bloodlines. Like Jeanette/Therese. To be even more overt. The live play series LA by Night does fully reference and base its story off the aftermath of the events of the game. And that series is canon. From a business standpoint it would be a pretty bad move to not have these popular games not contribute to the metaplot in any way. Especially when the sourcebooks have been treating them as such for this entire time. Pretty sure even the game before it was canon to the VtM Dark Ages setting as well. Though I'm less familiar with that setting than I am with the modern nights admittedly.
Since most people know the whole VTm thing from the games, i don't really think we care about your opinion.
@@whitejack9032 Go read some books
@@sirdark1381 How about no?
@@whitejack9032 You’re cooked bro and so am I.
*drags carcass to truck after a 12 hour shift and sees Glueboy has posted another Vampire lore video*
“It’s gonna be a good day”
While you were talking about the different theories, I was pondering that doesn't Bloodlines essentially validate one of those theories.
Masterful gambit at the end there. Boo modesty, there is only being right.
*This Gangrel sees. This Gangrel likes. This Gangrel subs* 🐺🤘
The fact that you referred to Beckett as the coolest isn't lost on me either.
This was a fun video. I'm surprised you haven't gone all 'Malk' on us trying to interpret the varied lores and histories on our favourite "Dark Father." Thanks for this. The amount of work you had to put into this is appreciated.
Happy to see VtM stuff, I've always wanted to join one of those big discord RP servers based on the setting but it overwhelmed me. Any chance you're gonna branch out into other world of darkness systems? I'd kill for someone to talk about Mage
Mage is 100% on the list. I adore Mage the only real issue is I have to track down a bunch of books. Pdfs arent as easy to find so more than likely I'd have to buy them. Mainly cause the wiki is great at citing the books, but the info they give isnt enough detail for me to understand everything.
@@glueboy you should totally cover Changeling. It is so much fun (even if the system sucks). Like the powers in Changeling are so fun, and the system is super queer
I plan to cover every game at some point. Though fey stuff has never fully been my cup of tea so its probably later. The first more obscure one I plan to delve into is Demon the Fallen
depending on the books I might be able to help you, is there a preferred way to contact?@@glueboy
TH-cam didn't give me a notification for this video >:(
I'm afraid that this is the algorithm's punishment for having the AUDACITY to branch out and cover more than one subject
Whatever, the TH-cam algorithm is dumb and your VtM videos are always dope.
Also, the sheer gigachad energy at the end of the video was just *chef's kiss* perfection
Portraying Caine as an obvious evil bad guy? Nah
As a depressed immortal? Nah
Some Taxi driver? Nah
As Slayer from Guilty Gear? _YES_
Fuck my ending, thats the true canon identity.
the statblock is YES XD I love your jokes
Yeah vtm can you do more wod
I plan to! I love the other settings in wod. Only issue is the stuff that isnt VtM or Werewolf is a bit harder to get my hands on lol. I wanna cover Mage but cant drop the cash on the 20th core book rn.
CAINE THE CAB DRIVED BEEEP BEEEEP
Caine Vs. Big E
Straight up don't know who would win that... Antediluvian power scaling would be on some 40k shit. Like the most recent awaking of Zapathasura during the Week of Nightmares makes me think the 3rd generation would be on Primarch level. It took multiple spirit nukes and full on sunlight satellite lasers (and a good number of them too) to even kill him. So then amplify that to Caine's level and it might be even against Big E lol
@@glueboydoes it take a nuke to kill a primarch? Damn
@@publiopaolacci495 To be clear, the multiple nukes didnt kill Zapathasura. Even though they were spiritual and wreaked some havoc in the underworld. It killed the members of his clan and weakened a barrier in place so they could angle all the sunlight lasers at him. It took a LOT. Which sounds about right for most primarchs. Even the daemon primarchs can be killed by non primarchs. It just takes a fuckton of firepower.
Personally I think Caine beats big E depending on whether or not he has blood. Cause he has like 10 or higher fortitude and is probably faster than big E with Celerity 10+. Like everyone sleeps on Caine cause he would probs be squishier than big E, but I would argue he would be able to put maneuver big E. The only problem would be Psychic attacks, which I am not entirely sure if there is a power to prevent that.
Edit: I forgor, he would also have like 10 willpower, which would probably block at least some Psychic stuff, so imo Caine has a shot.
@@Robinsky-o2n Only issue with a Caine sweep is just Emp's weaponry and psychic abilities. Since he's got the whole flaming sword and can most definitely do some strong fire. Which is a major Kindred weakness. That and I feel like Emps could make some form of artificial sun effect if he wanted to. Man likes his bright gold stuff. I'm still in the camp that its an even fight, but the fact that these two could even be in a debate says a lot lol.