Oh, and Cecil just casually asks his niece if she has a crush on any girls or boys at school without putting any special emphasis on either gender. Former intern Maureen said she wasn't interested in boys, which may imply she likes girls but may also imply she's asexual and/or aromantic, which are also included in the LGBT+ community. Basically, this show is just really inclusive and has representation -- actual, realistic representation, not just the "well, we gotta throw some gays and poc in there somewhere" kind -- for everybody. (There's also disabled characters, trans/nonbinary characters, people of color, and such.) Despite the ridiculous nature of the events in the story, this show has the most realistic depictions of human interactions of any work of fiction I've ever seen, and I love that about it.
Not only that, but in the novel, when Diane asks her son about any crushes, she asks if he is interested in any boys or girls, and when he replies with a boy, her reaction is completely natural and she doesn't treat the idea as anything other that "oh, my son is growing up so fast, already in love, so proud" type of thing.
I felt that in the novel Josh was a little bit nervous about admitting he liked a guy, but Diane was really accepting and he got over the initial anxiety pretty quickly.
I really like how most of the characters don't have a definitive physical description, so it's up to the listener's imagination. Anyone can see them self in a night vale character, not for their skin but for their personality
I also love how they don't really put any emphasis on Janet (the niece) being disabled and in a wheelchair other than (correct me if I'm wrong) the second anniversary and the Middle School Crushes episode and even then its only casually mentioned
I think when you live in a location where clouds throw animal carcasses at you, and days are cancelled and nobody understands how the sun works, you have bigger issues than worrying about who is romantically interested in who, or not.
There's not a reference to Cecil and/or Carlos' sexuality because there shouldn't have to be. If Cecil and Carlos were a straight couple, they wouldn't need to address their heterosexuality.
Sebastian August it isn't normally about that and even if he was straight and had feelings for someone he would have made references to that. It doesn't matter what should be it is what it is.
sycamore man well it's irrelevant now because Cecil /did/ recently acknowledge his sexuality: in Cal. He said he never mentioned the fact that he "would never have a girlfriend" because he felt Cal "would have minded." This is a clear reference to Cecil's homosexuality.
@@rosegoldphilip Wait... that sounds like the exact opposite. When you base your choices of mate around the feelings of other people, that's not an inherent orientation, that's you choosing to restrict your natural orientation in favor of a higher goal. Like a monogamous guy going "I won't have a girlfriend because my wife would mind." If Cecil would willingly have a girlfriend (were it not for Cal being troubled by it), wouldn't that imply that he's bi/pan? (I think pan is more likely.)
austian23532 Cecil is, but not represented like the stereotype. He's flamboyant, but not like "I wear pink dresses and high heels! Hey boys date me!" The dating part doesn't apply to Carlos. That's different, (and adorable.)
I know all the fanart depicts him in a suit, but I think his traditional reporter's unitard and galoshes and plastic poncho on poncho day. So yeah- not flamboyant. (its night vale we are talking about).
One character is a hand. Nothing else, just a hand. Another is a sentient rock, and another is a sentient haze of mist. Then there's the glow cloud (ALL HAIL). I mean... they're not humanoid, so it's kind of moot to assume they have male or female genders at all.
I personally think that, because Night Vale is such a strange place, they have a higher, more fluid perception of gender. I think that most residents don't really care. It just doesn't have as much weight in Night Vale as it does in the rest of the world. I think that Night Vale is so accepting of LGBT people because gender just doesn't really matter as much. The town is more aware of the idea of a fluid spectrum. That's just my opinion on it.
Jazzie Tazzie Sheriff Sam, Alisha the giant warrior, and the spokesperson for the vague yet menacing government agency (I think?) who was only mentioned once but still. There may be other nonbinary characters who haven't been explicitly pointed out.
I actually asked my friend who introduced me to WTNV about this and he just said, "I feel like the people of Night Vale have so many other things to worry about that they just don't give a shit about gender or sexuality."
one one of the most recent episodes Cecil does reveal that he was gay (i was on the full bandwagon of him being bi at that point, or pan even, considering all the non human characters we have running around) and he does it in the most nonchalant way possible that made me love it so much, he just says that he never mentioned it to him, thinking he would mind, unlike the people of nightvale, but this was in the midst of a bunch of reality warping stuff and carlos had been pretty much cleaned from history for a few moments.
My personal theory was always that Night Vale just sort of attracts whatever the outside world finds weird, and, considering that Cecil's been around since at least the 1800s (Best Of?) the fact that he was gay and comfortable with that would have made him just as much an anomaly as the Glow Cloud.
I'm personally a fan of NBC's Hannibal where a good portion of the main characters ended up acting on or acknowledging a same-sex attraction without the show capitalizing on the fact. It made the relationships more natural. It was also refreshing to see a show including LGBT+ characters without including the overused dramatic plots centering around the clash of being LGBT+ in a time where it's still not terribly accepted.
actually, I read an article about this where they interviewed Cecil Baldwin! Originally, they didn't plan on Cecil being gay. They basically gave him the script and told him to say it however he liked. Cecil Baldwin saw the script, and merely thought "this sounds gay. let's say it in a way that makes him gay" because that was his interpretation of it. He could have easily said it in a way that sounded platonic I'm sure; Cecil Baldwin is a very talented actor. I'm not sure if this (www.popmythology.com/cecil-baldwin-interview/) is the article, but he does answer similar questions in it. (in the first article I read, he did talk about his own sexuality and how he struggled to find work as an actor in advertisements, because people look for a "friendly" voice these days, and not a more "manly" voice like his, which would have been better suited to something in the 50s, when patriarchal values and qualities were praised more than they are now. Hopefully, that finds anyone who wants to find the article.)
I can also recommend The Magnus Archives. It’s a spooky podcast with top quality representation and it’s incredible!! Please go listen to it. If you like Welcome to Night Vale you’ll probably like TMA as well.
I really don't think that the people in Nightvale feel like they have a right to judge because so much abnormal shit happens on a daily basis. Why should being gay be any different? There's also the sheriff's secret police. We have no idea what could cause them to possibly arrest someone. Not to mention Nightvale would lose it's favourite radio host if anything did happen.
For a good LGBT+ characters on aired American TV, Steven Universe is good. There is a character who is literally a walking gay couple (except in Russia) another character has feelings for Stevens mom, all of the gems/aliens are agender/genderless.
@@deadchannel9105 however, im not sure how they handle ruby and sapphires wedding. since ruby who would have the mustache wears a wedding dress and sapphire wears a tux
Another show (web series in this case) that has gay/nonbinary characters that are just incidentally gay/nonbinary and never really make a big deal out of it is the Carmilla series from Kinda TV
For good LGBT+ representation in media, I suggest the anime Yuri on Ice. It casually portrays a healthy gay relationship between the two main characters, and nobody in the series makes any remarks at all about how it's gay or how it's interracial. Not only that, but the creators made the decision to label it as a sports anime, not shounen, which I feel is very important. It shows that gay/lesbian relationships in media don't have to be fetishized to be represented in the media, and helps to normalize these relationships.
(theres a TL;DR at the end, sorry for writing so much!! ;; ) +Carrie Churchward i understand what you're saying. i mean, i really do like YOI a lot and the fact that victor and yuuri are the main focus but their relationship isnt an issue. its more that their building of their relationship is what drives the story forward so yuuris skating CAN be the main focus of the story. but i do legitimately understand what you mean when you say they feel a bit rushed. at first everything felt like it was coming out of basically nowhere. though certain plot developments can help fill the holes, i cant quite help but think that there's something missing. not only that, but i cant quite put my finger on it. +Starry Sky and heres some more thoughts on victor and yuuri, hopefully they come across! i think victor and yuuri are still a bit different from cecil and carlos. cecil and carlos are much much more concrete than victor & yuuri, imo. Cecil talks about his relationship with carlos with confidence yet never mentioning being gay or how their relationship is socialized being two men romantically involved. There's very little confirm/deny with victor and yuuri. and victor's brazen personality traits arent really new. Ive seen many male characters in anime that are really just for fanservice do pretty much what victor does. but that's definitely not to discredit him and his feelings. whereas cecil says "boyfriend" yuuri blushes and stutters, occasionally shaking his head or something similarly vague. with the context of victor, not even he really confirms or denys. without context of similar anime characters, he is of course, involved in yuuri's life as more than just a friend. however, i always see posts about these two where someone is analyzing the context of the show, and translating it back into canonicity of the pair's relationship. i feel like there's always something that has to be analyzed and translated in order to understand what victor and yuri are really saying to each other. and in moments that are more concrete, they're either not fully shown (the kiss), theres a strangely casual air about it (honestly, who's so casual about a marriage proposal? not only that, but it was conditional), or theres just words unspoken or can have double meaning (when yuuri gave victor the ring, in one light it's obvious what's going on but while in another, i can't exactly tell what yuuri's thinking...) Some of this might possibly be because of yuuri's personality, but then i think about why victor isn't more concrete in what he says or thinks as well. the way cecil calls carlos his boyfriend and the way he encourages carlos to try opening up more and being proactive in their relationship. Anyway!! I really do 100% believe victor and yuuri are in a romantic relationship, especially because the director even said that she wanted to portray romance between men and not label it as BL. tbh this can all boil down to writing and the fact that this is a western perspective on a japanese show. but nonetheless, these two relationships are still, or at the very least Feel, different to me in that sense. (sorry for the long reply, i can ramble forever ;-; ) *tl;dr:* cecil & carlos: concrete, strong, 100000% in a relationship, undisputed, no doubt about it. victor & yuuri: generally concrete but still having somewhat of a nebulous feeling because of writing and context? but yes they do both have the same vibe in terms of "not mentioning gay" nor their relationship being a problem in terms of them being two men, and i really like that!
Santiago Neat! That's a really cool way of looking at it, and I see where you're coming from. I agree that the relationship was a bit rushed, and it's DEFINITELY not as concrete as the one between Cecil and Carlos. Still, in my opinion, it was still handled pretty well, and worth mentioning. Plus, with all the fear over queerbaiting, I kinda understand why they wanted to go to such lengths to make the relationship indisputable as quickly as possible, so as not to risk losing viewers who thought it was just queerbait.
Starry Sky Yes! and there are only a few episodes out as Carrie states, and i think will only have 12 in total? might be wrong. but yeah i do genuinely like how theyre being handled. It makes me excited to see if there will be more stuff like this to come in the anime industry! And with more content comes more variety and polished work :) !
pretty sure the best way to do lgbt representation is to just have to characters be gay or trans or whatever and not make it the major selling point of your show
This is how certain groups of people in fiction should be depicted if you want them to come off as normal. So many people want more homosexual characters in fiction to make it come off as more normal in society, but then those characters are always like LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT HOW GAY AND DIFFERENT AND SPECIAL I AM! And to me, that seems counter productive. You want your gay character to be seen as a normal person, you treat them like a normal person.
Jesper and Wylan from Six of Crows are a wonderful representation for the same reasons. They never mention being gay or homosexuality at all, just that they love each other,
This is far from a useless theory. I believe It’s important to acknowledge and depict the very serious struggles the LGBT community faces through media, because they are very real issues that deserve to be represented and understood. However I feel the Night Vale is an exception. Night vale is not the real world, it’s a surreal world where homophobia doesn’t exist and thus gay relationships don’t face any backlash. It’s rare and a lovely to imagine a world like that. And that’s why I love that Cecil and Carlos aren’t a tragic gay couple, they simply are two people in love.
I think the depiction of Cecile and Carlos as being gay as so normal that there is no need to discuss homosexuality is a choice of the creators because it reflects their personal views. Welcome to Nightvale also has a sharp eye for fine irony. So in Nightvale something being normal that should be normal in our world is one of the things the story of Nightvale does, Finally, they want their podcast to be successful and Cecile and Carlos were a favorite from the start, so it would have been stupid not to go along with the popular opinion of "i ship them" and "that is so adorable". And they are! ❤
I've always loved to call me by your name and how it never has any mention of being gay or finding yourself, but has a gay relationship as the main focus as if it were any other relationship. the new movie is wonderful as well as the book and the story is so beautiful
It looks like those who worship at their bloodstones or towards the Mighty Glow Cloud (aaaaaaall haaaaaail) don't chum the waters like with some other religions which have their hooks in our own social standards, and hangups from it to get over.
While i find it to be an interesting case, i think its also important to mention that some people, especially in the american southwest, can not forget that they are gay in the same way that straight people can. Being gay affects how people will percieve you whether thats business, friendships, familial relationships, housing, etc. and i dont know how helpful it is in todays political climate to avoid these things as an issue and portray it as neutrally affecting their lives as it is being straight. I also believe that a lot of gay media is made sloppily and without care because were starving for it and i just want better and more representation.
I think we don’t really have tu care about it because there is flying cats and angels, it is possible that homophobia, sexism and racism doesn’t exist and so he is not special, his couple is not special and because he say he is with a guy, his listeners just guessed that he was gay so he didn’t have to say it. Imagine he was with a girl, he wouldn’t have to say that he is straight. And we don’t know if he is bi too.
(Estimating where the podcast was at when this was posted from the date, assuming they might not have gotten to the bit I'm referring to) I love that in one of the arcs, they indicate Just How Wrong things are by having the bit in Episode 108 "Then he asked, “You got a girlfriend or what, little brother?” In my life with Cal, I’d never told him I would never have a girlfriend. In Night Vale, no one cared either way, but I felt like Cal would have. In this other reality, I was single. So I only said, “No.”" Outside of, you know, the version of Cecil speaking that line being single when Cecil was already married to Carlos, the presence of Cal as basically the first homophobe Cecil had interacted with, the only person he'd ever met who would care about that was intresting. It really does demonstrate the sort of place night vale is. It's also really the only place that remotely discusses cecils orientation, since op mentioned that in the video.
What about that one jock dude from Paranormin? (If that's how you spell it.) They only told us he was gay at the very and of the movie and he wasn't stereotypical at all. He simply said he was going out to to something with his boyfriend when the blonde child who I forgotten he name of asked him out. I think they did a great job with his character too, t let you get to know him first before you could simply judge him on his sexuality.
Oh wait no I was wrong in remembering it, the girl was flirting wit him and he said "That's nice Cathy, you're gonna love my boyfriend, he's a total chick flick nut!"
Cecil is just a man in love with a person who happens to be a man. There is no need to talk about his sexuality because he just is, just as the existence of the Glow Cloud (ALL HAIL) is never really questioned, and Megan Wallaby being a young girl who is an adult man’s hand is never questioned either. It’s a love story like any other and doesn’t need questioning! I agree that it’s refreshing that his queerness is not mentioned, but in a show such as nightvale it’s the least strange and certainly least important aspect of his character- in fact, I’d argue that his love for Carlos is the most normal and mundane thing about him . I’d love to see a video speculating about his appearance though, which is commonly assumed among fans to include a third eye and even tentacles even though that’s never mentioned in canon, which is a very strange and cool Mandela effect! I’d love to see speculation on Kevin and what happens in Triptych, or on what being the Voice of Nightvale actually means (I’m convinced Cecil is some form of eldritch being myself) and what happens in the episode where he seems to die on tape??! There are so many cool aspects of Cecil’s character to explore that the fact that no one in canon talks about him being gay seems barely relevant.
Must be an American thing. I live in Canada and I've never cared either way if someone was gay or not. Nobody bats an eye when I tell them I'm bi. What IS annoying is people trying to make you adhere to their ever-changing daily preferences. Sorry, don't have time to keep up with that. Too exhausting.
I find the phraze "thats not the main thing about their character" a little problematic. Are any other character traits talked about in such a way? It just feels like it's saying it's an element of their character that you're supposed to ignore and pretend their straight when you don't have to hear about their gayness. Cecil sexuality is presented in almost every episode and does form his character quite a bit. Though not in the stereotypical way. It's not announced on a rainbow float "his gayness" when ever he shows up. A show like the real o'neals is all about the characters sexuality but what it's actually portraying is a subculture. Characters aren't just gay when it's brought up in the story and then they turn straight when they have non gay plots developing.
Oh, and Cecil just casually asks his niece if she has a crush on any girls or boys at school without putting any special emphasis on either gender. Former intern Maureen said she wasn't interested in boys, which may imply she likes girls but may also imply she's asexual and/or aromantic, which are also included in the LGBT+ community. Basically, this show is just really inclusive and has representation -- actual, realistic representation, not just the "well, we gotta throw some gays and poc in there somewhere" kind -- for everybody. (There's also disabled characters, trans/nonbinary characters, people of color, and such.) Despite the ridiculous nature of the events in the story, this show has the most realistic depictions of human interactions of any work of fiction I've ever seen, and I love that about it.
Not only that, but in the novel, when Diane asks her son about any crushes, she asks if he is interested in any boys or girls, and when he replies with a boy, her reaction is completely natural and she doesn't treat the idea as anything other that "oh, my son is growing up so fast, already in love, so proud" type of thing.
I felt that in the novel Josh was a little bit nervous about admitting he liked a guy, but Diane was really accepting and he got over the initial anxiety pretty quickly.
I really like how most of the characters don't have a definitive physical description, so it's up to the listener's imagination. Anyone can see them self in a night vale character, not for their skin but for their personality
I also love how they don't really put any emphasis on Janet (the niece) being disabled and in a wheelchair other than (correct me if I'm wrong) the second anniversary and the Middle School Crushes episode and even then its only casually mentioned
Mareen dates the girl from dark owl records
I think when you live in a location where clouds throw animal carcasses at you, and days are cancelled and nobody understands how the sun works, you have bigger issues than worrying about who is romantically interested in who, or not.
ALL HAIL
@@B.E.N_THE GLOW CLOUD
There's not a reference to Cecil and/or Carlos' sexuality because there shouldn't have to be. If Cecil and Carlos were a straight couple, they wouldn't need to address their heterosexuality.
Sebastian August it isn't normally about that and even if he was straight and had feelings for someone he would have made references to that. It doesn't matter what should be it is what it is.
sycamore man well it's irrelevant now because Cecil /did/ recently acknowledge his sexuality: in Cal. He said he never mentioned the fact that he "would never have a girlfriend" because he felt Cal "would have minded." This is a clear reference to Cecil's homosexuality.
@@rosegoldphilip Wait... that sounds like the exact opposite. When you base your choices of mate around the feelings of other people, that's not an inherent orientation, that's you choosing to restrict your natural orientation in favor of a higher goal. Like a monogamous guy going "I won't have a girlfriend because my wife would mind." If Cecil would willingly have a girlfriend (were it not for Cal being troubled by it), wouldn't that imply that he's bi/pan? (I think pan is more likely.)
So what you’re saying is... Cecil being gay is normal in Night Vale, just as normal as a 5-headed dragon... NEAT.
neat!
"AND-aND I SAY T-THATS , NEAT!"
1:16 what dog park? There has never been a dog park In Night Vale
yup, totally no dog park there
a dog park? i was never aware of a dog park!
I had no idea there was a 'dog park' in Night Vale! No clue whatsoever.
What's a dog park? Dog parks aren't real
The first episode
"Cecil's not flamboyant" ...are...are we talking about the same Cecil palmer?
austian23532 Cecil is, but not represented like the stereotype. He's flamboyant, but not like "I wear pink dresses and high heels! Hey boys date me!" The dating part doesn't apply to Carlos. That's different, (and adorable.)
i'm sorry you win this comment section for that
Except Cecil will wear literally anything
I know all the fanart depicts him in a suit, but I think his traditional reporter's unitard and galoshes and plastic poncho on poncho day. So yeah- not flamboyant. (its night vale we are talking about).
yeah, bc i'm thinking of cecil "furry pants" palmer.
One character is a hand. Nothing else, just a hand. Another is a sentient rock, and another is a sentient haze of mist. Then there's the glow cloud (ALL HAIL). I mean... they're not humanoid, so it's kind of moot to assume they have male or female genders at all.
All hail the glow cloud
ALL HAIL THE GLOW CLOUD
All hail the glow cloud
I personally think that, because Night Vale is such a strange place, they have a higher, more fluid perception of gender. I think that most residents don't really care. It just doesn't have as much weight in Night Vale as it does in the rest of the world. I think that Night Vale is so accepting of LGBT people because gender just doesn't really matter as much. The town is more aware of the idea of a fluid spectrum. That's just my opinion on it.
The angels there can’t hear gender
There have also been at least three canonically nonbinary characters, and they don't make a big deal about them either, and I love this so much.
Adrien Vanlandingham ....
What characters?
Jazzie Tazzie Sheriff Sam, Alisha the giant warrior, and the spokesperson for the vague yet menacing government agency (I think?) who was only mentioned once but still. There may be other nonbinary characters who haven't been explicitly pointed out.
Oh shit, I never thought of that.
also, you can't forget about Megan, the young girl born into the body of a detached male hand then surgically attached to a former russian sailor
Sheriff Sam uses they/them
I actually asked my friend who introduced me to WTNV about this and he just said, "I feel like the people of Night Vale have so many other things to worry about that they just don't give a shit about gender or sexuality."
Well, Night Vale is not that weird... at least ghosts can't adopt children. Because that would be a real slippery slope.
AND NOW THEY ARE MARRIED
Well grown man's dettached hand fell in love with a computer. So man loving a man is pretty much least weird relationship in Night Vale
The city Council would like to remind you that the dog park does not exist
Dog Park? What is it? Do u eat it? Or maybe they dont even exist...
one one of the most recent episodes Cecil does reveal that he was gay (i was on the full bandwagon of him being bi at that point, or pan even, considering all the non human characters we have running around) and he does it in the most nonchalant way possible that made me love it so much, he just says that he never mentioned it to him, thinking he would mind, unlike the people of nightvale, but this was in the midst of a bunch of reality warping stuff and carlos had been pretty much cleaned from history for a few moments.
I think that Night vale is just more accepting so they don't label ppl as gay and straight, they just don't care so much.
fellow fander??? fellow fander AND wtnv fan??? :0
My personal theory was always that Night Vale just sort of attracts whatever the outside world finds weird, and, considering that Cecil's been around since at least the 1800s (Best Of?) the fact that he was gay and comfortable with that would have made him just as much an anomaly as the Glow Cloud.
I'm personally a fan of NBC's Hannibal where a good portion of the main characters ended up acting on or acknowledging a same-sex attraction without the show capitalizing on the fact. It made the relationships more natural. It was also refreshing to see a show including LGBT+ characters without including the overused dramatic plots centering around the clash of being LGBT+ in a time where it's still not terribly accepted.
I'm late to the party but hell yeah, I agree with you!
actually, I read an article about this where they interviewed Cecil Baldwin! Originally, they didn't plan on Cecil being gay. They basically gave him the script and told him to say it however he liked. Cecil Baldwin saw the script, and merely thought "this sounds gay. let's say it in a way that makes him gay" because that was his interpretation of it. He could have easily said it in a way that sounded platonic I'm sure; Cecil Baldwin is a very talented actor. I'm not sure if this (www.popmythology.com/cecil-baldwin-interview/) is the article, but he does answer similar questions in it. (in the first article I read, he did talk about his own sexuality and how he struggled to find work as an actor in advertisements, because people look for a "friendly" voice these days, and not a more "manly" voice like his, which would have been better suited to something in the 50s, when patriarchal values and qualities were praised more than they are now. Hopefully, that finds anyone who wants to find the article.)
This is an underrated, important comment. Thank you.
I can also recommend The Magnus Archives. It’s a spooky podcast with top quality representation and it’s incredible!! Please go listen to it. If you like Welcome to Night Vale you’ll probably like TMA as well.
I really don't think that the people in Nightvale feel like they have a right to judge because so much abnormal shit happens on a daily basis. Why should being gay be any different? There's also the sheriff's secret police. We have no idea what could cause them to possibly arrest someone. Not to mention Nightvale would lose it's favourite radio host if anything did happen.
All the different ways to say "Cecil" (feel free to add to this list):
Ceh-sil
Ceh-seal
Cee-sul
For a good LGBT+ characters on aired American TV, Steven Universe is good. There is a character who is literally a walking gay couple (except in Russia) another character has feelings for Stevens mom, all of the gems/aliens are agender/genderless.
Eva-Is-Sans-Ational how does Russia cover it?
tutterbear98 Literally they add a mustache and deep man voice
tutterbear98 Russia is gone in SU. its just not there.
Bubbles thy take the more masculine character whose apart of the relationship and add a moustache and deeper voice
@@deadchannel9105 however, im not sure how they handle ruby and sapphires wedding. since ruby who would have the mustache wears a wedding dress and sapphire wears a tux
Another show (web series in this case) that has gay/nonbinary characters that are just incidentally gay/nonbinary and never really make a big deal out of it is the Carmilla series from Kinda TV
We still need more rights for ghost relationship.
For good LGBT+ representation in media, I suggest the anime Yuri on Ice. It casually portrays a healthy gay relationship between the two main characters, and nobody in the series makes any remarks at all about how it's gay or how it's interracial. Not only that, but the creators made the decision to label it as a sports anime, not shounen, which I feel is very important. It shows that gay/lesbian relationships in media don't have to be fetishized to be represented in the media, and helps to normalize these relationships.
What do you mean? I'm not the best at seeing things beyond face-value, so I'd love to hear why you feel that way! :)
(theres a TL;DR at the end, sorry for writing so much!! ;; )
+Carrie Churchward i understand what you're saying. i mean, i really do like YOI a lot and the fact that victor and yuuri are the main focus but their relationship isnt an issue. its more that their building of their relationship is what drives the story forward so yuuris skating CAN be the main focus of the story. but i do legitimately understand what you mean when you say they feel a bit rushed. at first everything felt like it was coming out of basically nowhere. though certain plot developments can help fill the holes, i cant quite help but think that there's something missing. not only that, but i cant quite put my finger on it.
+Starry Sky and heres some more thoughts on victor and yuuri, hopefully they come across! i think victor and yuuri are still a bit different from cecil and carlos. cecil and carlos are much much more concrete than victor & yuuri, imo. Cecil talks about his relationship with carlos with confidence yet never mentioning being gay or how their relationship is socialized being two men romantically involved.
There's very little confirm/deny with victor and yuuri. and victor's brazen personality traits arent really new. Ive seen many male characters in anime that are really just for fanservice do pretty much what victor does. but that's definitely not to discredit him and his feelings. whereas cecil says "boyfriend" yuuri blushes and stutters, occasionally shaking his head or something similarly vague. with the context of victor, not even he really confirms or denys. without context of similar anime characters, he is of course, involved in yuuri's life as more than just a friend.
however, i always see posts about these two where someone is analyzing the context of the show, and translating it back into canonicity of the pair's relationship. i feel like there's always something that has to be analyzed and translated in order to understand what victor and yuri are really saying to each other. and in moments that are more concrete, they're either not fully shown (the kiss), theres a strangely casual air about it (honestly, who's so casual about a marriage proposal? not only that, but it was conditional), or theres just words unspoken or can have double meaning (when yuuri gave victor the ring, in one light it's obvious what's going on but while in another, i can't exactly tell what yuuri's thinking...) Some of this might possibly be because of yuuri's personality, but then i think about why victor isn't more concrete in what he says or thinks as well. the way cecil calls carlos his boyfriend and the way he encourages carlos to try opening up more and being proactive in their relationship.
Anyway!! I really do 100% believe victor and yuuri are in a romantic relationship, especially because the director even said that she wanted to portray romance between men and not label it as BL. tbh this can all boil down to writing and the fact that this is a western perspective on a japanese show. but nonetheless, these two relationships are still, or at the very least Feel, different to me in that sense. (sorry for the long reply, i can ramble forever ;-; )
*tl;dr:*
cecil & carlos: concrete, strong, 100000% in a relationship, undisputed, no doubt about it.
victor & yuuri: generally concrete but still having somewhat of a nebulous feeling because of writing and context?
but yes they do both have the same vibe in terms of "not mentioning gay" nor their relationship being a problem in terms of them being two men, and i really like that!
***** oh, i succeeded? :D
Cool! And no problem, I tried my best ^^
Santiago Neat! That's a really cool way of looking at it, and I see where you're coming from. I agree that the relationship was a bit rushed, and it's DEFINITELY not as concrete as the one between Cecil and Carlos. Still, in my opinion, it was still handled pretty well, and worth mentioning. Plus, with all the fear over queerbaiting, I kinda understand why they wanted to go to such lengths to make the relationship indisputable as quickly as possible, so as not to risk losing viewers who thought it was just queerbait.
Starry Sky Yes! and there are only a few episodes out as Carrie states, and i think will only have 12 in total? might be wrong. but yeah i do genuinely like how theyre being handled. It makes me excited to see if there will be more stuff like this to come in the anime industry! And with more content comes more variety and polished work :) !
I love that Sheriff Sam is simply They and no mention is made either way of their assigned gender at birth
I love Night Vale. I love Cecil. I love Carlos. I love Cecil and Carlos. And I love anyone that loves Night Vale.
As do I
It’s Called House of Hades, The Hero’s of Olympus. Nico di Angelo
pretty sure the best way to do lgbt representation is to just have to characters be gay or trans or whatever and not make it the major selling point of your show
This is how certain groups of people in fiction should be depicted if you want them to come off as normal. So many people want more homosexual characters in fiction to make it come off as more normal in society, but then those characters are always like LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT HOW GAY AND DIFFERENT AND SPECIAL I AM! And to me, that seems counter productive. You want your gay character to be seen as a normal person, you treat them like a normal person.
You didn't mention Kevin from The Bluffs, Cecil's doppelganger.
Jesper and Wylan from Six of Crows are a wonderful representation for the same reasons. They never mention being gay or homosexuality at all, just that they love each other,
Night Vale is the greatest story ever. Your theory sounds good :)
Put a top hat on and look up "villanous"
I've never heard of this dog park you speak of
You did a great job! As a longtime Night Vale fan you summed up our town very well!
This is far from a useless theory. I believe It’s important to acknowledge and depict the very serious struggles the LGBT community faces through media, because they are very real issues that deserve to be represented and understood. However I feel the Night Vale is an exception. Night vale is not the real world, it’s a surreal world where homophobia doesn’t exist and thus gay relationships don’t face any backlash. It’s rare and a lovely to imagine a world like that. And that’s why I love that Cecil and Carlos aren’t a tragic gay couple, they simply are two people in love.
I think the depiction of Cecile and Carlos as being gay as so normal that there is no need to discuss homosexuality is a choice of the creators because it reflects their personal views. Welcome to Nightvale also has a sharp eye for fine irony. So in Nightvale something being normal that should be normal in our world is one of the things the story of Nightvale does, Finally, they want their podcast to be successful and Cecile and Carlos were a favorite from the start, so it would have been stupid not to go along with the popular opinion of "i ship them" and "that is so adorable". And they are! ❤
They absolutely are adorable. I knew they'd have something as soon as I heard "and I fell in love instantly" in the very first episode
Ill say Homestuck does a great representation of homosexuality. It's not even really a thing! they say. It's done expertly :)
I’m from the future; they’re married and the former living interns are lesbians
I've always loved to call me by your name and how it never has any mention of being gay or finding yourself, but has a gay relationship as the main focus as if it were any other relationship. the new movie is wonderful as well as the book and the story is so beautiful
wow your channel is highly underrated man
I hope it grows soon!
I freaking LOVE night vale and this just made me love it even more!
You look Like the Evil alternate Version of Bird keeper Toby. good Video.
It looks like those who worship at their bloodstones or towards the Mighty Glow Cloud (aaaaaaall haaaaaail) don't chum the waters like with some other religions which have their hooks in our own social standards, and hangups from it to get over.
While i find it to be an interesting case, i think its also important to mention that some people, especially in the american southwest, can not forget that they are gay in the same way that straight people can. Being gay affects how people will percieve you whether thats business, friendships, familial relationships, housing, etc. and i dont know how helpful it is in todays political climate to avoid these things as an issue and portray it as neutrally affecting their lives as it is being straight. I also believe that a lot of gay media is made sloppily and without care because were starving for it and i just want better and more representation.
I think we don’t really have tu care about it because there is flying cats and angels, it is possible that homophobia, sexism and racism doesn’t exist and so he is not special, his couple is not special and because he say he is with a guy, his listeners just guessed that he was gay so he didn’t have to say it. Imagine he was with a girl, he wouldn’t have to say that he is straight.
And we don’t know if he is bi too.
(Estimating where the podcast was at when this was posted from the date, assuming they might not have gotten to the bit I'm referring to)
I love that in one of the arcs, they indicate Just How Wrong things are by having the bit in Episode 108
"Then he asked, “You got a girlfriend or what, little brother?”
In my life with Cal, I’d never told him I would never have a girlfriend. In Night Vale, no one cared either way, but I felt like Cal would have. In this other reality, I was single. So I only said, “No.”"
Outside of, you know, the version of Cecil speaking that line being single when Cecil was already married to Carlos, the presence of Cal as basically the first homophobe Cecil had interacted with, the only person he'd ever met who would care about that was intresting. It really does demonstrate the sort of place night vale is.
It's also really the only place that remotely discusses cecils orientation, since op mentioned that in the video.
The Penumbra Podcast, despite it's irl controversy, is like this too. Characters just are what they are and it's never even addressed. It just is.
"Hormosexuality."
all hail the glow cloud
ALL HAIL
ALL HAIL
omg this is the name explain guy!!!!
What about that one jock dude from Paranormin? (If that's how you spell it.) They only told us he was gay at the very and of the movie and he wasn't stereotypical at all. He simply said he was going out to to something with his boyfriend when the blonde child who I forgotten he name of asked him out. I think they did a great job with his character too, t let you get to know him first before you could simply judge him on his sexuality.
Oh wait no I was wrong in remembering it, the girl was flirting wit him and he said "That's nice Cathy, you're gonna love my boyfriend, he's a total chick flick nut!"
Cecil is just a man in love with a person who happens to be a man. There is no need to talk about his sexuality because he just is, just as the existence of the Glow Cloud (ALL HAIL) is never really questioned, and Megan Wallaby being a young girl who is an adult man’s hand is never questioned either. It’s a love story like any other and doesn’t need questioning! I agree that it’s refreshing that his queerness is not mentioned, but in a show such as nightvale it’s the least strange and certainly least important aspect of his character- in fact, I’d argue that his love for Carlos is the most normal and mundane thing about him . I’d love to see a video speculating about his appearance though, which is commonly assumed among fans to include a third eye and even tentacles even though that’s never mentioned in canon, which is a very strange and cool Mandela effect! I’d love to see speculation on Kevin and what happens in Triptych, or on what being the Voice of Nightvale actually means (I’m convinced Cecil is some form of eldritch being myself) and what happens in the episode where he seems to die on tape??! There are so many cool aspects of Cecil’s character to explore that the fact that no one in canon talks about him being gay seems barely relevant.
Great theory :) have subbed! I love Night Vale too.
That was an awesome theory
Welcome to tEXAS
You make it sound like sedona arizona
This is an anime, but Yuri!!! on Ice's main couple is gay and no one bats an eye at it.
Hi
Must be an American thing. I live in Canada and I've never cared either way if someone was gay or not. Nobody bats an eye when I tell them I'm bi. What IS annoying is people trying to make you adhere to their ever-changing daily preferences. Sorry, don't have time to keep up with that. Too exhausting.
I find the phraze "thats not the main thing about their character" a little problematic. Are any other character traits talked about in such a way? It just feels like it's saying it's an element of their character that you're supposed to ignore and pretend their straight when you don't have to hear about their gayness.
Cecil sexuality is presented in almost every episode and does form his character quite a bit. Though not in the stereotypical way. It's not announced on a rainbow float "his gayness" when ever he shows up.
A show like the real o'neals is all about the characters sexuality but what it's actually portraying is a subculture.
Characters aren't just gay when it's brought up in the story and then they turn straight when they have non gay plots developing.
100th comment!