Should Trans Women Be Allowed In Womens Sports? | Mia Mulder
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Sports is complicated, and trans women are controversial. So let's talk about fairness.
Sources Used
The Rise and Fall of the Bathroom Bill: State Legislation Affecting Trans & Gender Non-Binary People
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Salivary concentrations of cortisol and testosterone and prediction of performance in a professional triathlon competition
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Why do endocrine profiles in elite athletes differ between sports? | Clinical Diabetes and Endocrinology | Full Text
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South Africa athletics chief admits lying about Semenya tests | Reuters
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Swedish boys hog state sports funding
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Swedish female athletes face discrimination | Women | Al Jazeera
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Female hyperandrogenism and elite sport
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Opinion | So You Want to 'Save Women's Sports'? - The New York Times
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Testosterone Levels in Athletes Data Point Educator materials
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We celebrated Michael Phelps's genetic differences. Why punish Caster Semenya for hers? - The Washington Post
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Women and Men in Sport Performance: The Gender Gap has not Evolved since 1983.
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Ten ethical flaws in the Caster Semenya decision on intersex in sport
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The New Policy on Hyperandrogenism in Elite Female Athletes is not about “Sex Testing”
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Shades of Gray: Sex, Gender, and Fairness in Sport | Barbell Medicine
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Equal but not the same: equestrian sport’s unisex approach hides inequity
theconversation.com/equal-but...
Are the rules for trans athletes fair? | The Economist
• Are the rules for tran...
Why it might be time to eradicate sex segregation in sports
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Only Mia would segue from "what even is sports" directly to "the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire"
How can you talk about one without the other?
I wrote a scientific paper about the dehuminization of refugees and after my introduction I started with: „In ancient Rome there was a type of person called the Homo Sacer“
It was at this point that I realised I was writing a leftist paper.
@@michimatsch5862 you should have just cited agamben… if you didn’t, that’s not very honest
@@michimatsch5862 To be fair, pretty much any scientific paper is leftist, because reality has a well known leftist bias.
@@Soemrjruur I did. A lot of my work was based on him. I just didn't wanna bother anyone with people they may not know.
Also cited Mbembe for obvious reasons.
I analyzed whether various projects by the German government can end the state of Homo Sacer and "living death" for the refugees.
Every time this debate pops up I always see an article about a trans student who won the Texas girls wrestling competition 2 years in a row. People will point to it and say the athlete in question had an unfair advantage due to "biological sex". Thing is, that student was a trans boy forced to compete in the girls division by the UIL regulations. Even in cases of trans men succeeding in sports, it is used as a weapon against trans women. The athlete in question, it should be noted, has been quoted saying he'd rather potentially lose in the boys competition than win in the girls.
It is not doping to use a medication as directed by your doctor, as the boy was with his prescribed testosterone. UIL cannot prevent you from competing based on prescribed medications. That being said, you're clearly just a transphobic troll. I only responded in case someone who was less of a dungbeetle had a similar thought.
Ah shit you talked about him!
University Interscholastic League. It's the governing body for competitive extracurriculars in Texas
@@bobbsurname3140 what girl?
Why are you air quoting biological sex?
“What even is sports?” Then “THE FALL OF THE EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE” convinced me to subscribe.
Is it about the nika riots?
Im waiting for the vid to load. 😅
Not enough people know about the good old Eastern empire, shamefully called Byzantium by 18th Century historians.
the breadtube/K-pop tube crossover we’ve been waiting for
@@pahwraith fsfffcbvgvvgggácx
Why do so many people overreact to trans people? All they gotta do is mind their business if it bothers them so much. Transgender women just want to be treated like women.
The big thing I always noticed growing up as fitness loving young girl who tended to beat a lot of the competition throughout school and above; when you're against other women, it's just a sport, but the second you go against men, it became a man vs woman situation. You were no longer competing to win, you were competing to prove the worhtiness of women everywhere. It was such a bullshit extra level of stress. If you lost, the loss came with "well a woman was never going to beat a man", even if your loss had nothing to do with that.
I feel like it's often framed very much the same for trans gender people, but perhaps the other way around; a loss is a loss, but a win suddenly becomes "well they won because they're trans" and not because of their own merit, training and skill. There's such a weird us vs them mentality around sex, gender and sports/competition.
@@sparingharbor2600 i don't fully see how this is much by way of input. we already know sports is divided, that's what the entire video is about, and what we see when we observe amost any sport out there beyond a slim few. yes sports is divided, yes that's why people make it us vs them above the usual competitive nature. it's even worse for trans folk because they're literally only allowed to come in last place or there's fingers pointed.
@@sparingharbor2600 I love "person who didn't watch the video" comments. :)
@@sparingharbor2600 k
@Rock zen because it applied to multiple ones. If you'd like I'd happily list the school sports I experienced this, but I was under the impression the people reading wouldn't needed exact, literal details of every single fact.
Also I love ham, so not really sure how that's and insult. Spam too, unsurprisingly :)
Woman competes against Man. "It becomes a man vs a woman situation"...yup hit the nail on the head there
The women's division in chess exists for the original reason you mentioned. Because chess is historically dominated by men for sexist reasons and that has lead to many more men than women still in chess today. I explained this to my daughter recently very much the same way you explained it. If you have 1000 men and 100 women all playing chess and there is no advantage, the odds are the best chess player who is actually playing will be a man. So they have a women's division to encourage more women to play. But some of the top women choose not to play in that category. And when they get to parity in numbers, there will be no reason for separate divisions anymore because obviously there is no inherent advantage.
While this is largely right, eliminating the inherent advantage probably won't lead to the phasing out of women's chess. Those organizing successful programmes to start girls playing chess are generally quite happy to push the line that girls do better in the all-girls environment. There seems to be pressure for further segregation even as the performance difference has shrunk radically in the last half century.
Strangely, women's bridge is more likely to go away at all but the top levels. But bridge has long had the difference that most players at the club level are women and the tournament-level difference that the rewards for gender-restricted (or age-restricted) competitions are lower than for open competition.
Chess also had divisions based on skill. And when we find it fancy, on age.
It's up to the organizers if they want a single category or not.
Either way, men don't belong to the female category the same way a 20 years old doesn't belong in the sub-16 category.
@@tarnw3301 Skill level and age categories aren't going anywhere because they correspond to real differences (at least usually). Gender differences, giving women specific titles and championships, may not last once parity is reached.
@@Sam_on_TH-cam sex differences also are real.
But like with sports, chess is pretty much a family affair. A chess player normally has a support system, which might include a sister, a mother, a daughter, and if there's a female category, you bet it will be used the same way that a Novice category is used or the sub-14 category is used even though the Expert is open for everyone.
Of course, it all depends on the organizers, and how much prizes they can afford to give.
@@tarnw3301 Sex differences are real, what I meant is that they don't confer an inherent advantage in chess. The apparant advantage comes from the disparity in popularity of the game based on gender.
I think we should just get rid of all categories and rules in sports, I want to see every sport dominated by 7'0, GMO, drugged up space marines.
Or kangaroos and cheatas in running. Let's get ride of the only human rules since society thinks trans MtF is allowed
YESSSS!! Throw them a ball and let’s see some blood! The worlds collapsing let’s go out like Tony Montana!
Id watch this sport. Closest I get is AFL and Chess boxing.
You can organize such a category without cancelling everyone else.
@@07Flash11MRC it's not a cancellation, it's a merger
The "this athletic woman who has a personal, unique body type and also some of her body parts are more toned than others due to rigorous, olympic-level training IS NOT UP TO MY BEAUTY STANDARDS, therefore she must be trans" argument is gotta be my favourite.
the ability to identify potential predators is important
@@hepta5040 why yes I do hunt my own meat, how could you tell
That's not a thing that anyone says though. We oppose MEN in women's sports, not ugly women. I don't whether you're lying or stupid, but if you can point to someone actually saying it (or anything like it) then we can work that out.
@@XKenny77 "That's not a thing anyone says though" Go to ANY comment section in any video/photo of a black female athlete and you'll see exactly that.
@@LucasSantos-ss6ou That proves nothing at all about what gender critical people say, think and do. "Masculine" women are not anyone's idea of the problem.
I say we ban sports instead. Problem solved.
or remove all rules and see just how fast a 7 foot space marine can run
Except that Russian MMA fighting where they let anyone, including 400 lb women and grandpas fight. It's all equal opportunity there. Bring back the colosseum for everyone!
i have a trans friend who played in a hockey League. they didn't have any rules against trans women competing but she still felt weird about it and ended up quitting organised sport altogether. really sad and i have to wonder how common that is.
@@xythiera7255 Yes you can. Women do it all the time, and they win pretty often. Also, trans women don't really have the exact same body as a man's
@@SevenPr1me Trans woman are still male, yeah. But they are also woman. Female and woman are terms that mean different things. To be honest, you can't really appropriate womanhood. And like, I feel like it's weird to say that Trans woman just put on makeup and a dress and do woman things that they are just suddenly a woman. They where always women. Literally any Trans woman will tell you that they understand this, but wear dresses and makeup because a. they like it and/or b. If they go by she/her, but still look like a man, it can get them hurt. Socially transitioning is almost always for safety.
@@SevenPr1me Not to also mention that if Trans people do professional sports they have to physically transition, and have their hormones under or over certain levels. Their bodies physically change. So technically, if you physically transition, yeah.
@@SevenPr1me And there are cis woman, who also don't have that ability? There is a difference between male and female and man and woman. Female is biology. Woman is the social construct. If you ask a transwoman, they'll say "a woman is someone who identifies as a woman". They won't give you a description of "a woman is a girly girl who wears dresses and makeup and likes pink". A female is a biological description (that by some definitions may not apply to biological females) and a woman is a social indication/description. Every woman, cis or trans, is different, and have different ways of identifying their womanhood. There is nothing detrimental about a cis woman fitting into a stereotype (liking pink, wearing dresses, blah blah), why is it suddenly detrimental to womanhood when transwoman do it?
@UCVNcWNkspMUSsUeTXnFxKUg Bro a boat isn't a social construct what are you on??? Here, think of it as money and currency. Money is literally a piece of paper. Physically, it is a piece of paper. But socially, we give money value. We, as a society have dictated how much things "cost". I could literally just give a service of mine for free, or I can charge money for it, and that money is usually dependant of my personal values and societal indicators of the price range I can give it, especially if my service is not within the mainstream market.
Also, not saying that Trans woman are mental. But if Trans people and third genders have existed for literally decades, don't you think that their is some pattern to it? That we SHOULD look into it and not dismiss it as "people be crazy". That emotions are just as much of a part of biology. Who says transeness isn't an untapped medical phenomenon that we could look into. Not to mention that the literal treatment for gender dysphoria, a condition that most trans people have, is transitioning, socially and/or medically.
This was really interesting. I think my favourite sport, equestrian showjumping, is a really interesting case study into the gender and class aspects of sport. The majority of equestrians (at least in my country) are women and it’s been decades since women were allowed into the sport, but the vast majority of the highest ranked riders in the world are men. Not because of any biological differences - since the sport is far more about technique than pure physical ability - but because of social factors. Pursuing a career in showjumping is so time-consuming that it’s virtually impossible to combine with raising children. Many equestrians therefore end up having to choose between the two, unless they happen to be married someone with no career ambitions of their own, who’s happy to stay home with the kids while their partner is away competing. For complex reasons I trust we’re all familiar with, it’s usually the women who are expected and taught to prioritise having children.
Furthermore, the dependency on sponsorship money (horses are terrifyingly expensive) means that the most visible, ie the highest ranked and most successful equestrians - and the minority who already happen to be filthy rich - are the ones who tend to get access to the best horses, making it even more difficult to make a comeback at the top level after taking time off to have kids. It would be the easiest thing in the world to take the statistics at face value and say that men are clearly better at showjumping than women, when the actual reasons are far more complicated than that.
Kinda useless for this conversation. Nobody is saying transwomen will dominate equestrians sports.
Equestrian sports are hardly even a human sport, you're training an animal first and foremost. It's like dog fighting or horse racing
@@amazin7006 You have completely missed the point of my comment. I was expanding on Mia's argument that things like gender roles or class, which have nothing to do with sports on paper, can actually have a huge impact on who can become a successful athlete. Mia spent a good portion of the video talking about how this isn't limited to just trans people. As for your second point: I take it you've never actually ridden a horse, so why don't you go take a few riding lessons, maybe try to jump a fence or two, and then come back and tell me if you still think it's not a "human" sport. I dare you.
@@idab9958 What matters most for an athlete is their genetic aptitude, everything else is secondary. Mia constantly lies and downplays the role of puberty and testosterone when it comes to athleticism because it's convenient for her unscientific argument.
"maybe try to jump a fence or two"
You're not jumping over a fence, the horse is. All you did was train it.
@@amazin7006 This is totally relavant. They're bringing it up because it's an example of a sport that isn't divided into seperate divisions based on gender of the participants. Also, equestrian sports are sports. They have to train the horses AND they're preforming along with the horse. The horse doesn't do it alone. Riding horses is punishing on your body, if you disagree with that I'm quite sure you've never done it.
i wish all horse abusers a very stampede
Sport isn't about ""fair competition"" it's about devoting your body to Apollo.
He will bestow victory if your efforts pleaseth him.
INCREDIBLY BASED
MARS ME ADIUVAT!
Integrating this into my worldview from now on
wrong
So my major is Anthropological Sciences and in one of my classes on human evolution we're discussing how estrogen-induced primary puberty results in a pelvic orientation that reduces the biomechanical efficiency of bipedalism by, among other effects, reducing the efficiency of the hamstring muscle group. I wonder if that accounts for the difference in running performance among trans women; testosterone-induced primary puberty would have resulted in a more efficient pelvic orientation which is largely set in place by age 18 (although not completely so until age 25). Wish we had more research on this to look at!
it's never just one thing... there is a sense of arrogance that we humans have thinking we can just tweak a design that's been developing for god knows how many years and expect almost an immediate and drastic change of course that almost never meets the expectation, but hey you have to start somewhere at the end of the day....In overall I think the biggest dissonance is in women's MMA I think there is a strong case for this sport and testosterone is definitely one of the major elements and how it effects the body in the womb ect.
My major is Kinesiology (with a focus on physiology) and I am minoring in biology to supplement my major. Adding onto your points about bone structure, I’m studying how myonuclei (muscle fiber nuclei) are affected by training and how even with detraining (or changes in hormonal balances - shifting towards the topic of trans inclusion in sports) myonuclei can still remain which gives the advantage of improved muscle protein production/adaptations. Myonuclei can also be affected by puberty/hormonal balances with lasting effects being present potentially after hormonal changes.
I firmly believe that the binary sports system (male/female) we have is outdated and needs to change. I also absolutely want trans inclusivity in sports. I believe that a less binary system could benefit all competitors (especially those underrepresented by the male-dominated sports media/industry - women/trans people).
The stance I have accepted is that the debate surrounding trans inclusivity in sports shows how more areas of research need to be dedicated to sex-difference research (sex does not mean gender of course). Overall I think that more research needs to be done before either “side” (trans inclusive/exclusive) can make a responsible ruling on the topic. Also greater sex difference research is important for medical reasons as most research is male dominated still meaning that if women/trans people/intersex people seek medical attention or answers we are applying evidence that, while mostly generalizable (general non-gonadal anatomy is relatively similar), the nuance involving sex-based differences is lacking.
@@Kate-fc5ht that's incredible interesting, thank you for sharing!
Yeah, we pretty much established that a couple decades ago. It's the same reason women suffer a higher rate of disabling injuries as paratroopers.
@@Kate-fc5ht Your major is in kinesiology and you don't think humans are a binary sex.
What other sexes are there, Kate? You know full well why sports are segregated . You're just content letting males like Lia Thomas compete in women's sports.
I absolutely FEEL the idea that cis women having fewer numbers of eligible competitors stunts their progress in sports. When I was a competitive martial artist, I was perceived as female and thus stuck in the women's competitive category, and by the time I hit black belt there would be competitions where I had nobody in my rank to compete against. The obvious solution should have been to stick me in with the men's competition of my rank, but instead I was forced to compete against women 3 to sometimes 4 ranks beneath mine in order to fill out a roster.
One year was so scant that the entire women's division was forced to compete with each other despite rank and this poor 14-year-old yellow belt was forced to go against me at 19yo, 2nd dan.
When I complained, I was told, "You would get hurt in the men's division (bullshit, because most of my sparring partners were men, and the judges knew that), and we trust you not to hurt the less experienced girls."
I ended up forfeiting the match because how fucking demoralizing to be a kid that's trying compete in a new skill in front of a crowd only to have the roster bracket you against someone closer to rank with your teacher than you.
Was it even a full contact tournament?
@@hairymcnipples Folk ages 12 and up were allowed to sign up for full contact I remember and I had signed up for that division, but with low sign up rates it wasn't uncommon for full contact to not be allowed for certain matches at judge's discretion. After I forfeit (& several heated conversations with all of the local dojang head masters) later tournaments allowed me to be in the men's division so long as I signed a waiver but full contact was never allowed.
Yeah, the highest ranked student (and 2nd highest instructor) at the tkd school I go to is a woman and always has to spar much lower ranked students than herself at tournaments. We ALL know that her skills are topnotch and there are maybe three students (all male) who have a chance of winning against her, but the board requires a "woman's bracket." When sparring in house we all line up for a chance to spar and learn from her. Sigh...
My father saw something different when he was learning martial arts. The wife and daughter of the guy running the dojo were both good fighters(daughter was a black belt I believe) and the daughter had multiple trophies from competitions. However, neither would fight a male student at their level. They only fought lower grade students(usually 2 or 3 levels lower than them) and even then they only won on technique. They couldn't hit with their full strength nor take a hit without getting injured.
@@Maverick-7508 What is the point of this story? Were they good fighters or did they only have trophies from beating up on lower ranks? Did they have unearned success because they were women or because they were the literal wife and child of the guy that ran the dojo? What were the association’s rules for types of competition they were required to participate in by rank? (Mine required full contact participation at least twice a year to earn blue belt and 6 times a year by the time you tested for black belt. However, many associations don’t require competition at all to advance in rank which obviously leads to those students being geared towards testing katas/forms and board breaks with very little focus on sparring. That’s important information to consider because if your dad’s school was from an association that was not competition geared since that means everyone in that school was probably a poor competitive performer because the experience was just never there -despite gender-.) Lastly, how does this anecdote contribute to support or denial of the point that woman’s sports are stunted by lack of competition?
I’m asking because based on how your dad would answer the above questions to steel-man this argument this contributes nothing to the point of women’s sports but it is a display of how student’s are unaware that they are in competition with dojo/dojangs that are held to different competitive standards and students that highly value competition in those associations that don’t will underperform in that setting. Presently, it sounds like your dad came across a case of nepotism on behalf of the dojo owner (which has nothing to do with gender) and somewhere in between then and now someone telling the story decided to be sexist about it.
You touch on this, but I think the issue with some of these rules is that policy that makes sense for super-duper elite athletes doesn't necessarily make sense for ordinary people. At the highest levels of sport, microscopic differences determine success, and getting even a tiny boost from an inborn characteristic can be decisive and lead to enormous monetary and reputational advantage, but at the "ordinary person" level (basically anything less competitive than high-level college sports) there's a much greater degree of variance, and vastly lesser rewards for success. To use a crude example, a 5'9" transwoman on a highschool basketball team (who might have been 5'4" had she been cis) will be substantially less disruptive to the competitive balance of said league, than a 7'0" transwoman on a WNBA roster (who might have been 6'8" had she been cis), and any potential competitive disruption in the former case will hurt the other athletes far far less in the former case than the latter. If a line must be drawn (and I think it must be), we should draw it where it hurts the fewest people possible.
To my mind, this points to one set of rules for hyper elite athletics (maybe something like the IOC framework, and potentially with an additional category for trans people who don't want to meet those limits) and another for 99.999% of athletes who do it for fitness, enjoyment and personal growth (basically, compete as you identify). You're right that it's virtually impossible to draw a line that doesn't harm anybody (i.e. Semenya), so there needs to be a question as to where we draw a line to hurt as few people as possible.
The only thing that doesn't makes sense to me about this reasoning is that it doesn't happen to cis women who share the same characteristics (because of their genetic heritage, ethnicity, etc.).
It's only about trans women, and still every particularly tall or broad-shouldered cis woman who has ever competed in Olympics has never been cast out because of this.
I can dig your reasoning, sure, but the fact that it's only about trans women (as it seems to be for everyone else's) makes it fishy at least.
@@alkalinefeline2504 I get you. I think it might help to start from a basic set of precepts, here are mine:
1. Athletic greatness is created by some combination of physical characteristics, and hard work.
2. We care about athletic greatness because it reflects some aesthetic and valuable idea of human potential.
3. "Maleness" however defined, appears to confer a substantial, and statistically obvious physical advantage in most, or at least many, sporting events. This is independent of weight or height, or long arms or shoulders. You simply cannot put a professional 135 lb. female boxer against a professional 135 lb. male boxer, or a 5'10 male sprinter against a 5'10" female one.
4. Truly elite athletes (Olympians and the like) are vanishingly rare. Something like one in a million.
5. As a result of 1, 3, and 4 If men and women competed in the same sports against one another, women would have relatively very very few opportunities, but this violates the premise of 2, why we like sports, because it means that half of human beings begin at a substantial disadvantage that would prove decisive at the highest levels. That's not human greatness or potential, and limits our scope of athletic inspiration.
6. As a result of 5, we create women's sports, an intentional form of discrimination to protect a class of people. This requires a line based on what constitutes "maleness".
7. 6 means that women's sports requires isolating "maleness" and removing it from the competitive pool, but maleness isn't a pure binary, it's a gray area.
Because of the need for 6, but the reality of 7, a line must exist, and that line will hurt some people. The people that exist within the grey area will be hurt, and those people will be trans, or people like Semenya that don't fit. It stinks.
Could we devise some other system, like the "levels" one that Mia brings up? Maybe, but I feel like that explicitly places women's sports as the lesser, and I don't like that. Britney Griner is just as special as Shaq, FloJo is just as impressive as Bolt. I don't want FloJo to have the AA record and Bolt to have the AAA record.
@@alkalinefeline2504 Way way way TL,DR; I think women's sports is valuable, but requires drawing a line on maleness, and that line is going to be a painful one. I think we should think about how to make it less painful as much as we can, but I don't think there's a perfect solution.
I think another factor to consider is that many trans people in the past (70s to 90s) typically began transitioning as grown adults. Anywhere between early 20s to late 30s. So, they went through cis puberty.
Whereas trans people from our generation (millenials and slightly after, so 00s up to 2010) started transitioning basically hormonally and surgically at age 18. Still completed cis puberty.... but they interceptes that 2nd wave of adult puberty that we hit in our mid-20s.b
And most recently, trans teens start puberty blockers - meaning they hit "pause" on cis puberty. And when they're 18, they can still reevaluate decide to move forward as trans or cis.
Basically what I'm getting at is your "if she had been cis" comparisons.
Those comparisons only matter because trans folk have had *no choice* in the past but to *endure* cis puberty.
Puberty blockers effectively undermines this factor.
If a trans teen hits pause on cis puberty, then continues to transition at 18.... they essentially **never went through cis puberty.** So we don't have to wonder what their bodily framework would have been if "they had been cis."
Therefore, as trans care becomes more accessible, this "trans people in sports" dilemna will continue to be come less and less relevant.
Trans people from
@@jjava.bean5 Obviously we'd have to keep track of the actual data on that (whether cis puberty is the delineating factor), but on the face of it, that seems totally reasonable, and if it bears out that would be *amazing*. Even in your scenario, though, we would still need a line. If someone transitions in their 20's, are they out? Do we still use testosterone levels to say who had an advantage? I just don't see how you don't end up with a line.
I'm surprised marksmanship and archery aren't mentioned when comparing womens and men's sports. In the olympics, the women's division is actually almost at exactly the same level as the men's, and maybe even a little better.
@@sparingharbor2600 It's kinda pointless to argue with these people because they clearly want to ignore everything that doesn't fit their ideology and/or haven't played and watched sports in their lifes. There's a reason biological males are better at most sports and saying there isn't and letting men compete with women is a very efficient way to take away womens rights, it's disgusting.
Women have all the advantage in dog sledding, horse jumping, dressage, and eventing. They compete against men in sports where having LESS weight is a tremendous advantage. Nobody complains or makes excuses when women win. It should be the same when girls/women compete against trans athletes.
The way Caster is restricted from participation in her sports category and is shunned as being not "correct" biologically and forced to take anti-androgens in order to compete, compared with how Michael is treated in the sporting world and the public eye, just screams misogyny to me. The effects of being a genetic outlier in sports as a man is celebrated, while as a woman it is vilified, viewed with heavy scrutiny, and results in incredible discrimination.
You are hilarious. Misogyny is such a bad faith argument. Caster is intersex and Phelps is a biological male. So Caster is competing in a category they don't technically belong in whereas Phelps is competing in a category he does belong in. It only matters when a person wins. I'm sure there are intersex men competing in men's sports but they won't be statistically likely to win. You sound like a misandrist and a misogynist at the same time denying that there are sex differences that matter to women on competition. Misogyny! That's the funniest thing I've heard. It's Misogynistic now to protect women's sports... SMH.
@@Bradley_Lute Getting lectured on good faith from someone pointedly they/theming the intersex lady and using an anti-trans dogwhistle to describe the dyadic guy, what a morning...
Yes I'm aware Michael's large innate biological advantage isn't related to his sex. (As far as we know; don't know if he's been genetically tested). That isn't the point. It's still a genetic unfair advantage over those he competes with. Caster is competing in the category concordant with her sex in every social sense, and is regarded with suspicion for the same reason (with unpleasant overtones of "how can a mere woman be so fast?").
I think a lot of what you've said suggests that you haven't watched the video, as it ignores a lot of the points built up there such as the reason for the sex segregation in sports, as well as the way female athletes are expected to conform to specific beauty standards to be seen as legitimate. The latter of which is misogyny, and I think it's certainly a large part of what led to Caster being ordered to get a sex test.
Though if you want to say "this is actually discrimination against intersex people" then yes, that too, I agree and it isn't acceptable.
Another point covered in the video is about those who say they're "protecting women's sports" and you've fallen right into the stereotype of single-mindedly focusing on a topic with discriminatory intent rather than genuinely wanting to address the issues such as reduced pay for female athletes and lack of funding in schools. Solving those is protecting women's sports, kicking out people who perform too well in their natural state is not.
@@scoreunder males shouldn’t compete with females.
@@miraann3997 Just watch the video that you are commenting under. Please!
@@scoreunder Michael Phelps is well within the male range of excellence. He's around 0.4 seconds ahead.
Lia Thomas is 14 seconds.
You want to eliminate women's sports for mediocre males while telling us *you care so much about guys like Nassar.*
this was perhaps the worst ideological wordsallad in a long time.
So the only reason Mike Powell jumps 8,95m and Galina Chistyakova jumps 7,52 is becuse women overall hasnt been practicing/competing long jump as long as men has. It has absolutley nothing to do with biological differences.
Its clear she dosent care much about sports, have no interest in it, she only care about trans rights and nothing else and dosent give a damm about the conseqences for womens sports. Nor does she care about womens rights, or any other groups rights, only trans rights.
One reason I can see for separating by "women" and "men" in sports, is to prevent the sport from falling into becoming dominated by one group or the other. If you're a girl, and see more male than female athletes doing a certain sport, chances are lower that you'll become interested in pursuing that sport yourself, than if you were a boy (statistically speaking, of course), and vice versa. And if the distribution of people doing a certain sport begins to shift in one direction, the distribution among prominent athletes will, ignoring other factors, tend to shift accordingly, which amplifies the issue further, i.e. we have a positive feedback loop.
And obviously, there's nothing inherent about gender about this problem, but as it stands, who we look up to, who we identify with and want to emulate, tends to be very strongly influenced by gender. But of course, by that logic it would also make sense to separate by other characteristics that strongly inform a persons identity, which might not actually be such a bad idea, if done right (which of course is a big if, given the history of the women's division of sports being treated as a side show).
In that regard, it's not really much of a question where trans people should be allowed to compete. It's not like a child forming their interests has much of an eye for chromosomes and whatever else transphobes tend to get hung up about. And even in terms of presentation, it's not like athletes are generally super normative in their appearance anyway.
we use to separate black people from white people in US American sports history. The transition to allowing more talented black people was slow but today, see, it's all even
Wow it's almost like you didn't watch the video.
@@ama-gii wasn't that because of racism? So they had 2 different sections not because of biology reasons but because of discrimination. In the transgender case people don't want to discriminate them, but keep it as fair as possible for the women.
So if black people would have an overall advantage in sport it would have made sense to have a black and white section. So you cannot compare black&white with transgender.
“By the logic it would also make sense to separate by other characteristics that strongly inform a persons identity”. And that’s where your mistaken. The division in sport is not contingent on identity, it’s contingent on the material biological reality of sex differences which majorly determine the capacity for athletic performance.
@@hatchibyebye except...it isn't. That's the point. The difference is almost entirely not physical.
Love what you did with the audio editing from 6mins to 6:30 - Subtle touches like that really do go far. Thanks for doing what you do 🫶
Genuine question, did you actually look into the US women's soccer suit? The claim that gender discrimination took place, in the way you describe, didn't happen.
The Women's team was offered the same pay structure as the Men's team, yet they decided to take a different deal. A deal that guaranteed pay, rather than the Pay for Play deal the men took. Because the women wanted the benefits of an essentially salaried structure. And the men had something like a commissioned structure. The USWST lost out on the opportunity for maximum gain (per game). In which case the man would have made more IF they win the Cup in the men's league.
Also, if a guy was on the bench the entire game, he wouldn't be paid. Vise versa every woman on that bench was guaranteed compensation and more.
What's the timestamp of that part of the video? I don't remember it
Nvm, found it. 42:05. I think she likely doesn't know the full story of that particular case, but the screenshot was included for its relevant headline. If that headline is a misrepresentation of the story, that is unfortunate though it doesn't invalidate the point she's making (as long as other similar scenarios exist, which I am certain there are).
Thanks for clarifying about that particular story. Misrepresentation and distortion is bad no matter who is doing it.
@@evanmagill9114 42:00, she didn't go very far in actually communicating the example she provided. Kinda felt like she was trying to use it as context rather than evidence.
@@millykendrill5301 Honestly, this can more easily be boiled down to the simple fact that the prize pool is different. Can we agree that if the women and men's teams (of the world specifically) generated the same amount of revenue, and had the same pay structure. That they would make the same amount? Nobody can argue that mens sports produce more money because overall viewership is higher for men's sports, versus it's female counterpart. And that difference in viewership can be explained a few ways.
But in this example its mostly that given there are 16 men's teams in the world, and 12 women's teams. It would make sense that the prize pool is different because there is objectively more to watch. More teams more games.
Also, the reason why there are more men's football teams than women's football teams in the world, is because men we're able to participate decades sooner. Rather than just thirty years ago for women. Take that as you will but it's just that.
@@millykendrill5301 Hey look, you wont be getting any fight from me regarding Christianity or its everlasting harm. I've been an atheist before I knew the word atheist.
But I believe fairness comes down to what's expected. And I believe what's expected, when it come down to biological differences in physical competition. Is that the most exciting, athletic, or intense the sport or activity is. The more people will want to watch that sport or activity.
I think that its fair that your average male basketball player gets paid more than your average female basketball player.
I only think that's fair NOW because (I cant see anyone arguing against this genuinely), men's basketball is much more intense and exciting to watch.
So it should be expected for male players to be paid more on average.
The way to change that expectation, is by bringing the same level of excitement, and there for viewership.
I gave basketball as an example of "fair" discrimination because currently, the WNBA and NBA both have their rims set at the height of ten feet.
With that, and the difference in height. Male players average 6'5, Female players average ~6', I don't think equality is necessarily benefiting the female players here. Simply lowering the rim in the WNBA would allow higher activity and ironically raising the ceiling for competition. And this has been suggested many times before that it would raise viewership allowing for "equal" pay.
I don't think denigrating or purposefully casting a shadow over man will bring more of the limelight to women.
Reparation's shouldn't come through discrimination, rather it come through incentivization.
@@Baasudei I somewhat see what you're getting at.
The only explanation I might have for the difference in structure and viable income is the lack of support for Women's soccer.
Currently the USWST outperformed the men in basically every aspect. And yet they still earn millions less than the men for winning the league.
Despite that, I find the women's lawsuit to be a rather firstworld problem given some countries don't even allow, or even have a women's soccer team. And for the Women's team to have the same opportunities, the rest of the world has to catch-up with America's albeit imperfect, but more than most inclusivity for women in sports.
An analogy akin to this situation is like McDonald's to a new up-and-coming food chain.
McDs being Mens football, and Women football being the other. We already know McDs is well established, it's in every state, city town, and country basically.
But that new up and comer is still looking to widen it's reach. Allowing it to pay and offer greater opportunities for it's workers (in this analogy let's assume McDs actually payed it's workers well too).
In the US, if the new chain becomes the most sought after fast food joint in the country. It still won't be as well established as McDonald's is. So for the new restaurant to ask for the same structure and pay even, when the world hasn't decided to invest interest the same as the US. It becomes unreasonable.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in the video is how bone structure plays a role in "art sports" like figure skating, taekwondo etc.
Bone structure is definitely something someone who went through male puberty would retain some of. In figure skating, adult women find it borderline impossible to do a quad jump in a sport where doing quads is now necessary to be competitive. Only prepubescent girls and men can do it because the hip:shoulder ratio is very important for getting all four rotations in. I really am only interested in figure skating when it comes to sports with art elements, but art sports in particular are affected by the biological differences between cismen and ciswomen because some forms and movements will be more difficult for women and some will be more difficult for men (but generally women, because the sports are primarily controlled, developed and mandated by men).
My theory is that a trans woman would be able to do quad jumps IF they transitioned somewhere significantly past their male puberty started in a sport where currently only female teenagers can compete competitively due to the sport being designed around men.
You're basically asking for a completely stunted male to do female feats.
She didn’t mention the larger capacity for oxygen intake either which is a great advantage in many sports like swimming and running to name a couple.
@@redtankgirl5 the taking in of oxygen doesnt really apply cause the amount of oxygen intake into the blood after transition, is the same as cis women. homolygy does change with hormones. trans women after 4 months of hrt will have the same homology, and that is what actually gets effected when it comes to oxygen intake. dopers will take drugs that help to increase their oxygen intake which raises the homology. the homolgy levels after hrt are no higher than cis women, so this argument has no weight to it
Unless they actually decide to raise the competition minimum age, I don't really see the issue considering those teenagers are already competing. Like trans women being better than the subset of women that aren't as good as others seem weird to care about vs. being better than all female athletes in a sport. Also, quads aren't only affected by bone structure, fat distribution plays a key role as well and accounts for most of the mass difference, considering trans women will gain a more female fat pattern as well I think the advantage would be much more mild than you are suggesting.
@@redtankgirl5 she didn't mention mens have more muscle, especialy pectoral muscle, and it change everything for almost all sports.
Vividly remember the ruckus the transphobes made when Laurel Hubbard was nominated as the representative for New Zealand, and the radio silence when she ended up not even placing in the top three
It’s not transphobic to point out that she still took an Olympic spot off a biological woman that worked harder than Hubbard did. And if there is no advantage, is it just a coincidence that Hubbard had retired for 8 years, and was 43 years old at the time of entering. Calling people transphobia for disagreeing does not do you any favours; just completely diminishes the meaning of the term
@@1ellisd1 I have never called anyone transphobia
@@1ellisd1 You could make the argument for anyone qualifying for the olympics because of course there are people left out. Strangely there is nowhere near as much fuzz against olympians like Elizabeth Swaney (look her up) than there is against trans olympians (and intersex olympians like Caster Semenya). Do you see how that might be transphobic ?
@@1ellisd1 athletes are not always in their position because they worked the hardest. Never in the history of the entire world has anyone gone to the Olympics because they worked the hardest. We establish in the video that there are many socioeconomic factors that play into professional athleticism. Tom Brady is 44, age has nothing to do with skill. Being retired does not mean no attention to physical health.
@@1ellisd1 this only holds if you think cis women are worth more a therefore uniquely more deserving.
All olympians take a spot away from someone else 🤷... so yeah that is transphobic if you see no advantage and its just the transient property of being trans that makes someone lesser....
This was another great video. I really like the cuts in this one, everything looks over all a lot smoother!
Why they don't do a trans sport so we can all be equal I know things are complicated but this not fair for woman's
I love how you both addressed the popular talking points and reframed the subject to explore other perspectives and solutions.
Also your voice is very calming, which helps me pay better attention.
I had a discussion on this topic with a friend about a year back and after a lot of back and forth, we thought a good solution to allow trans or gender-non-conforming people to compete in sports would be to organize it on something other than the arbitrary basis of gender. We thought a system that groups competitors based on height and weight or something might work better. It might even level the playing field for what types of bodies tend to get excluded from sports. Plus I've been in some sports in high school where a number of disordered eating habits were being normalized among the higher performing athletes. I would imagine this would only intensify for people who make their living on their athleticism. So there might be an added benefit to shifting the system with which we organize sports because instead of encouraging athletes to obsess about becoming the "biggest" or the "leanest", it would instead shift the focus onto less dangerous pursuits like finding a better technique.
edit: obviously not a perfect solution. I mean it's a tricky problem. I just thought that if we're going to organize sports for the sake of a somewhat "fair" playing field, it might as well be on objective physical size instead of the nebulous concepts of gender and sex that are actually way more complicated than a binary, even on the scientific side of things.
While I’m not gonna argue with this suggestion, I think it would probably be far better than the gender segregated system currently at play, I don’t think it’s an ideal suggestion and will create a lot of additional toxic aspects to sports, such as athletes monitoring their bodies far more intensely to get categorized into a class most beneficial to them or intentionally losing or gaining weight in the span of a short period of time for the same purpose. Maybe not, maybe things will get better or stay the same but it’s something to take into consideration before implementing a system like this.
The best part is it already exists! There are weight groups in Boxing and other martial arts. The leg length can be used for athletics, the height in basketball and volleyball. And in most cases, it's probably very difficult to switch the category.
bingo, this is the solution
Women are not a smaller fatter man for fucks sake
Yes! This is exactly where I came to too
Bcos atm even a lot of athletes have unfair advantages due to their biological divergence
Lile michael phelps' feet and pretty much any other athlete that broke records (yes there are exceptions but its the exception to the "rule")
It would make way more sense to group sports but some other metric than gender (alone?)
it would be interesting to see the success rate of trans men competing in men's division
0% even if they are on testosterone.
Very educational video: had to crack my 45 year old chemistry book to understand some of your answers to questions I had never even thought of but that's okay, it's why I have lugged books all over the country most of my life as portable computers have only been a thing relatively recently. Enjoyed the historical context as well.
Mia absolutely nails this nuanced and complex subject.
I say this as someone with a keen interest in sports physiology, watches womens cycling & football and could probably write 16 pages (front & back) about the other more pressing issues before you get to Trans Women.
Thank you so much!
its not complex at all, lia does have biological adavntages bcs she went through puberty as man with a male body, trained as a man with a male body in athletics, and only recently decided to identify as a woman but still has that male body and many of the advantages.
@@fabiofernandes9122 does not understand or follow sportsing, I can go into detail if a more serious, good faith poster would like me too.
@@yousufkazmi7842 no detail needed but would love some good, accessible sources of info to be able to share with others :)
@@V1sual3y3z I've not come across one and sadly your target audience might not care either,
a TL:DR might look like general biology (essentially top sports people are born not trained) and current hormone levels are more important then pubity (in some cases, but not others), so it returns to it depends, some traints cis female usually have are better for some sports, same for cis males, but then you have other cirteria like number of people doing a sport, as in the more people do a sport, for more years the better that group become - too many variables to say it's just one thing, sports fitness, training, coaching is billion doller industry for a reason !
Also never underestimate the defelection, "I/My Team/ My Fav athlete" lost because everyone else cheated
was genuinely a bit sad when the tangent on greece under the ottoman empire was cut short :(
Bra video, intressant att höra en ordentlig analys för en gångs skull
Hi! Saw you on The Serfs and came to give some engagement! Can't wait for more videos from you.
In Australia there was a big row about a trans women who wanted to complete in our version of football. Even though the women's football league is like 50percent LGBTQ already, she wasn't allowed to play.
I mean cis women who are lesbian, gay or bi still have the biology of a cis woman. Sports isn’t about gender expression, it’s about sex, your biology. And unfortunately, trans women will never have the same biology as cis women. We should still validate their chosen gender identity of course, but it is just a biological fact that trans women have an advantage in certain sports over cis women due to their biology. It’s a shame that so many people use this to be transphobic.
Yeah because AFL is a dangerous AF sport and a 6ft3 100kg person would fucking kill the real women. You're talking about someone who is 2cm shorter than Nat Fyfe and 20kg heavier....like come on!!
She plays handball. Go look at some photos of Hannah playing against the women and tell me it's fair.
Do you are think you are fooling people by saying that there are "lgbtq" participants, people know that they are not trans
I've not seen to many videos on this topic, but this is by far the best and the most nuanced one to date that I've seen. Kudos!
Great job Mia! I enjoyed. I vary in my opinions slightly with solution options, but felt you did a great job covering all the issues! Thank you!
So glad I just discovered this channel. These videos are so informative and entertaining. Thank you for making these
trans dude superiority confirmed
I am surprised by how sexist this comment section is.
reality is sexist omg
Love this take on the topic. It kinda comes at it from a different angle, and it's very interesting and compelling
Thank you for making a video on this! It's been coming up a lot in the news and I think this video really helped me understand it better
"Sometimes life just isn't fair," I repeat to myself quietly as I ponder Mia's radiant beauty...
My word, she is so pretty.
Loved the Roman era outfit on her. I am a big fan of ancient Roman clothing. I wish it were socially acceptable for me to wear a tunic out and about.
@John Doe man, she really is pretty.
@John Doe if the poster was gay, would that be a bad thing in your eyes?
@John Doe if the person who posted the comment is gay, do you think that is bad
What an amazing and well thought out video!
I added this to my watch later around the time it came out, but I was just too tired of constant transphobia that I just couldn't watch it, but today I finally had the energy for it.
Once again, an amazing video
A hour long cope video.
The “head-start” joke was 10/10. Loving the video, wish I had watched it 3 months ago when I started uni.
This is excellent! Is there a written transcript available so I can peruse Mia's points more carefully?
This should tell you how advantaged men are in sports
All “male” sports are already all gender inclusive. There are zero restrictions on gender for “male” sports. They aren’t male sports, they are simply “the best in the category.” That happens to be men near 100 percent of the time, giving the illusion of a gender restriction
Including being best at being women lol
Two things I feel from your amazingly well-done thorough deconstruction of this topic is, first, that I had a cis girl friend who was super athletic. Cause I was 6'5", now 6'3" after coming out and hurt as well as vaginoplasty, but anyhow she said you like playing with me, and friends basketball, so come out and try out. And did, wasn't out then socially, but, I played for about two years and during that time there was a guy, well call him Mark. And, mark was probably the star athlete, played soccer and football and basketball, and always as the two-three if not top athlete, yet, when we'd practice, and we'd intermural practice, cause I went to a small private school, she'd often I'd say 90% of the time win against Mike if they went one on one. And she wasn't masculine, a tomboy sure, but when she'd put on a dress and glam it up, all would look at her, and wow she's gorgeous. And mike was "cut", muscular, and the star athlete, and yet, cause I was friends with him, he even said yah my girlfriend was just an amazing athlete he could barely beat. So a woman can kick men's asses, but second, I hated when people would want me to play sports cause I was tall when I didn't like sports, and still don't, so if I play sports cause I'm tall is that not "fair." Ugh, just go read "Harrison Bergeron" by Kurt Vonnegut. I don't get why when in high school it was played cause you were tall but then in athletic post-high school or college it's seen as unfair, so which is it, fair or unfair to be tall? Personally, I get sick of being tall and always having to bend down then people having to carry a bench or boxes to reach up (just kidding).
i wanna preface this by saying i oppose the current attempts to oppress trans people vehemently. and not to rely on anecdotal evidence but if you grew up afab you know there’s a point in growing up where it might be from just play wrestling with a guy or something of that nature and u realize males are just much stronger on average. even small short guys you think you could over power. it makes no sense for sports to be gender segregated but they should be sex segregated. ik there’s starts and things that make it complicated but just to say “well it wasn’t fair anyways” is so messed up. not that she says that but i’ve been hearing people say that. if trans women can participate in any sport like some people advocate for then your basically saying there’s no space for females in sports at all. and that’s so wrong.
The Algorithm has blessed me with your content. Absolutely love this piece, and look forward to binging your content through the next few days.
As someone with PCOS, im curious if I would pass sex testing to be on the womens team
yes, because you are a woman
My understanding of PCOS is that you are congenitally female regardless of your genotype.
Thank you for this video - it was very educational and helpful and gave me a lot to think about.
Today we're gonna talk about trans woman in sports:
1. The big bang
This was a really good video!! I love the nuance!! So many great points!!
We should do with sports what e-sports have done with speedruns: any%, all bosses, glitchless, etc
I don't see how that would go, could you give me an example?
@@penguin776 Trans women compete against each other lol
damn a 53 minute video just to say no
But she said yes
Seriously fascinating video. I learnt a lot. Definitely subbing :)
I'm not even a minute into this video and I'm already obsessed with Mia in a sporty t-shirt.
I find this very interesting because I know that Olympic target shooting is gender segregated for some reason. Also, target shooting competition does have similar skill classes to that discribed at 46:33.
funnt thing is nobody talks about the opposite -> Trans men competing at male events.
Two big reasons, one, they don’t tend to win, two, a lot of them are banned off the bat for technically unrelated-to-sex reasons for taking the super-sports-illegal testosterone. I did sports before my injury and we had some mentally challenged people put in the team as a part of some civic program, causing our team to technically exceed the legal limit, and to be frank, it never rocked any boats because they never really influenced the outcome of anything. If we had an extra large team thanks to that program and those extra guys started winning events and giving us an advantage thanks to what would normally be a break in the rules there would have been problems.
I have seen this topic flare up now and then and mainly been confused. Thanks for clearing things up
Fantastic video!
The sports issue hits me oddly because if I had continued competing in gymnastics (I had to quit because epilepsy, yay), I would have ended up being completely excluded from the sport I trained in. I'm AFAB, but I started training in gymnastics when I was four years old and in the girls' events. Floor, beam, vault, unparallel bars.
It's a constant source of depression that even if I wasn't epileptic and forced to quit because it was too dangerous, I would have been kicked out of the events I trained in if I had come out as a trans man at the time.
Gymnastics is so gendered that it isn't even the same sport; all of the events are different except floor (and even that has very different presentation). It doesn't matter if any woman, even a cis woman, is amazing at pommel horse; she's not allowed to compete in that event.
As a kid I was pretty upset that I couldn’t do the pommel horse, rings, etc. I had very strong arms and hated the balance beam, so I was jealous of the boys. The thing that made me quit was the leotards that you had to wear to be on the high school team - way too revealing for my comfort and would have required a lot of hair removal in certain areas. I really wish it weren’t so gendered from a young age :(
@@soul5049 Beam was my favorite event, but I liked practicing on the pommel horse. The coaches didn't mind me using it while waiting for my mom or my uncle to pick me up. But I couldn't compete on it, which sucked.
The leotards didn't bother me personally, but I completely understand why they would. Tons of trans masc people and cis women alike are uncomfortable competing in them. My thing was how cheerleader-ish the women's floor routines are. No other event is treated that way. Either do it for everyone, or don't at all.
@@soul5049 OMG this is so recognisable. I was in a gymnastics group (nothing high level, it was just for me staying agile and flexible, though I was good at it) that at one point either had a low new member count or there was something with a lot of children being ill or something, I don't really know.
The trainers decided to mix the group up so the boys would do the girls exercises and the exercises the boys normally did and vice versa.
Interestingly, the boys were all quickly put off by this, while the girls were hyped.
I was the only one who in her head felt like "YEEEEES!!! FINALLY, FINALLY I CAN BE ON THE BALANCE BEAM!"
Having returned to recreational gymnastics in 2018, unfortunately, that little voice in my head of "You don't belong on that thing" is still there and I really had to bring myself over to even walk towards one, even with encouragement from some of the women in the recreational group.
One day, due to my presence there was a little debate about "boys exercises" and "girls exercises" and the girls decided to try some of the boys and vice-versa.
Even more interesting, most girls were capable of pulling off some of the boy exercises much better than the boys were able to do the same with the girls exercises.
Stunning and brave!!!!
and why sports are divided by gender in the first place?
If there were no gender categories you wouldn't see women in sports at the top level. At the Olympics there would be no women in athletics, swimming, weightlifting, boxing, badminton, tennis and most other sports.
Hey mia, do you have a copy of “open categories in sport” that you could send me? Can’t find a free one online. Thanks.
I think it should depend on the sport.
It is clear that there is an advantage, there's a reason you don't hear this same hype over trans men in men's sports... its because they don't win, because they have the disadvantage.
Personally I have no horse in this race, but I do think a persons rights should not come at the cost of another's.
HRT reduces Performance by 10-15%, pretty much equal to a cis Woman in contrast to a Man.
If there are allowed in the Sport and dont dominate, thats it. No further Question needed.
@@Sunaki1000 I’m not convinced that’s true as such a broad statement! And if it were why is the opposite not true?
Also if that were true then puberty blockers wouldn’t be a thing, there are certain things you can’t undo. Also 10-15% of what bone density, muscle mass, what?
@@paddy1144 Performance, it reduces your Times by that.
Well Pupertyblockers are for more then just Musclemass.
The Bones are affected by HRT, but also just so much, and it may varry from person to Person.
Bodyhair, Facestructure...
Look up some before after, its basicly Shapeshifting.
The Data are all here you just have to look them up.
I give you a good Example how Pwople sould treat Trans Athlets. In the Pokemon Videogame Competetive Play, every new Pokemon gets added into the Over Used Tier and gets banned, or drops into lower Tiers depending on Usage. If 10 Trans Athlets and 90 Cis Athlets Perform and the top 10 is 7 Trans, and three Cis, then bann the Trans and make a new Tier just for them.
Super simple, exclusively based on Data alone, not Speculation, or Potencial.
And Athlets are not performing exclusively in important Tornaments, if the Trans overperform in Training alone, thats allready enough Time to avoid unfair Placements.
@@Sunaki1000 what? You didn’t give me an example, you just state some broad sweeping statement. Performance times.. seriously this is ludicrous.
Your telling me a male runner will get slower because of taking oestrogen and will end up on a level playing field? They should already be in their own category.
@@paddy1144 A female Runner whit a male Body.
And yes, it would be strongly reduced.
I dont think there has been nearly enough study in depth on the issue or variety. I have absolutely no issue with someone who started hormone blockers before puberty who is trans from doing sports but im not sure those who transitioned after puberty.
2 of my trans women friends had this very arguement and most of the arguements have to do with male vs female puberty. They asked me and i said it needs to be studied and verified that there is absolutely no adavantage and my friend replied thats transphobic and this is a problem i noticed in the community. I noticed this about the trans community is that they are very afraid of just getting studies out there about trans women in sports because of the possible backlash it may have.
there was one women in the UK brave enough to do a single study which a study published in 2021 by a professor in Loughborough university said its complicated and NEEDS further study because there is still too little info to make a decision. The professor doing this is a leader in researching this field. They did say in that study that men to women who are non-athletic are significantly stronger than cis females and leaner which also may impact women's sports in a way but we do not know that because the trans community is kind of hindering the studies with calling it transphobic. the biggest problem of this is the lack of information and I think its doing way more harm to the trans community than good.
If someone wants to transition I am all for accepting them for who they are but sports is a competitive thing and if there are any uncertainties we should air them out and get rid of them as fast as possible because then if the results show yeah there is no difference than many people may feel more comfortable with trans women competing. personally with the inclusion of trans people in sports i think we need to rethink how sports are done in case there are inherent advantages that trans people do get. right now we do not actually know anything on this issue.
I think for now let them compete but they should make sure a ton of studies are done on transgender athletes to air out this issue. it was an interesting discussion but someone with higher than normal testosterone levels and a hermaphrodite are completely different from someone who made voluntary choice to become another gender and this needs to be studied and we need more info before letting all trans people be banned from womens sports. that being said the trans community has to stop hindering the scientific community getting to the crux of the question so everyone can be satisfied when the real answer comes out.
I did really like the video and found it very interesting.
honestly, just implement a scientific limit
record all the highest values of each trait in biological athletes, and ensure trans athletes dont exceed any, this maximises the chance a trans victory is skill rather than inherent advantage
This was a very informative video, thanks for sharing ❤ I’ve been discussing this subject with my boyfriend for a couple of years now, just as an intellectual issue, mind you. Neither of us is fan of sports and we’re definitely not sharing our ignorant opinions in public. I just mentioned it because you summarized both of our points perfectly in a very good and nuanced conclusion that neither of us was capable of reach 😂
Mia is 2 metres tall?! Wouldnt that make her 6 foot 7 and among the tallest women in the world?
no thats 6'5 still pretty tall
@@shay4261 it would make Mia 6.5 feet but not 6'5".
american units are weird. 0.5 feet is not 5 inches in other words.
I'm only 174 cm tall.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video. As a 46 year old, former (way former) collegiate athlete, cis woman, I was so happy to see this-concise and informative. I appreciate all the work you put into this.
Thank you so much for providing sources in the description.
Which he doesn't actually read.
@@blacktigerpaw1 who are you talking about?
Here another question: should trans men be allowed in mens sports? If they do really have "disadvantages" compared to cis men, does that mean we should take cis men out from these events?
Well how about this. Allowing transgender women in women's sports today would still exclude many trans women that don't do hormone therapy so inevitably this will lead to more out cry about not being inclusive enough. So once transgendered women that meet certain hormone levels can participate the next step would have to be allowing all transgender women to participate, because progressivism. The only real solution would be start transwomen competitions.
slipperry slope fallacy
@@-aexc- Not really a slippery slope when it is already happening in high school athletics.
@@cantarguewithstupid policy that makes sense for super-duper elite athletes doesn't necessarily make sense for ordinary people. At the highest levels of sport, microscopic differences determine success, and getting even a tiny boost from an inborn characteristic can be decisive and lead to enormous monetary and reputational advantage, but at the "ordinary person" level (basically anything less competitive than high-level college sports) there's a much greater degree of variance, and vastly lesser rewards for success. To use a crude example, a 5'9" transwoman on a highschool basketball team (who might have been 5'4" had she been cis) will be substantially less disruptive to the competitive balance of said league, than a 7'0" transwoman on a WNBA roster (who might have been 6'8" had she been cis), and any potential competitive disruption in the former case will hurt the other athletes far far less in the former case than the latter
@@John-nt3dk I wouldn't agree with that. High school athletics has been separated in to men's and women's for a reason, otherwise if it doesn't matter then don't separate. These students are competing for scholarships or other
reasons. This is all the more reason to not allow trans people to compete in biologically differentiated sports. There is a reason that transwomen are required to meet certain criteria to compete because it is not a gender differentiation it is a sex differentiation. Also , along the lines that you have said any genetic advantage helps a person compete only argues against transwomen compete in women's sports because they are more likely to have distinct natural biological advantages that women don't have. Therefore a different league for trans individuals needs to be made.
@Jiwon Chang I fell like you and slippery slope maya don't understand what you are saying. It is not a slippery slope argument because there is evidence to support this direction as a highly probably event. Just because you are using logic and deduction does not make likely future events invalid. Now your strawman claim. What I stated is not an over exaggeration of future events based on what we have seen happen and what is happening. The example is based on many facts that we have already seen happen. Transwomen are now competing against women from high school to the olympics. Also transwomen are able to compete at some levels without needing any testosterone levels checked or hormones injected or what ever. There is a big movement saying that transwomen are the exact same as women. So with that here is a push to say that women have penises and testicles. Well if women can also have penises and testicles then why the hell are they being "discriminated" agains because of testosterone levels in the first place???? using facts to draw conclusions is not a logical fallacy in and of itself.
congrats on 100k!
Thank you so much for this actually. I've always felt ill-equipped to handle any dialogue around this topic, and I've been waiting for an informed trans creator to speak about it, and you've offered just the nuanced perspective I'd expect of you. I'm definitely sharing this one around!
Always a good day when Mia posts a video
Things started going downhill after caitlin Jenner got the woman of the year award!!!! What a slap in the face to all women that was! Just recently caitlin admitted he wasn't a woman but she accepted the award!
Ive felt this way for a while on this topic. Nice to feel less alone. Never had someone agree with me.
Clicked instantly! I love you Mia 💘💘💘
This video did a really good job of building up its argument
I was effortlessly led from "Well this seems like a relatively simple problem with a bit of nuance" to "Oh My God Sports Are A Lie"
No. If you feel energetic just take a run on the hills and then drop down the local caff.
What i took away from this video:
trans men are stronger than all of us
Still can't beat the top 20% of men and are reduced to giving birth, lol
@@blacktigerpaw1 I was making a joke and I heard trans men on testosterone usually can't give birth.
It's very normal for trans men to do things that prevent them from getting pregnant (like surgeries and such)
@@blacktigerpaw1 is having a child your life goal that you're failing at? Obviously, it sucks that trans men can't have children if they wanted to do that how cis men normally do, but there's always adoption and such. It's not a crippling problem or a problem trans men are unaware of.
@@usermcskull4713 Why are they getting pregnant if their female anatomy gives them dysphoria?
@@littlemonztergaming8665 Transwomen grace the covers of Fortune 500.
Transmen are famous for giving birth.
Weird how that works.
I do like how this video points on the huge variations in cis people, and how much overlap there can be between cis men and women.
Yes. I mean by trying to exclude Trans women, those "gender critical" people actually insult cis women by essentially telling them that they could not possibly as good as some men. If they are, they must be cheating or must be men, right, right?
@@barbarareichart267 It's true that an average cis-male is probably not as capable as a cis-female athlete but this is not the case with athletics.
An athletic cis-male will dominate over any athletic cis-female.
@@salvadorHombre In most cases that is true. I however was talking about the cases mentioned in the video, where "gender critical" people automatically assumed that cis gender women must have been men or transgender to have won the competition.
So even if women are doing well, they seem to think this cannot possibly be.
Also, it really depends on the sport. Women tend to be more flexible than men for example.
That isn't a strong argument though. Anyone denying there are huge differences in size and strength between men and women as a group, isn't paying attention to biology. The fact is trans men and women as a group lie somewhere intermediate to cis men and women. That is, trans people, regardless of male or female, are higher in size, speed and strength than cis women and lower in those same indicators than cis men. That is the fact. So a trans woman or trans man competing against a cis woman will have statistical advantages. Maybe not individual ones.
The argument of bigger differences within a group than between groups is not a nuanced argument at all. The amount of area of overlap between the two distributions is quite small compared to the non-overlap. So any given trait will be amplified in the two distinct groups.
@@Bradley_Lute "That is the fact" you say, without naming any sources.
thank you so much for citing your sources in the description! I'm writing a paper on gender segregation in sports and this video served as a perfect resource :)
can you send it if i give you my instagram?
Don't forget the peer reviewed study that found even olympic level female athletes had the same grip strength as the 50th percentile man.
Nfl/nba/nhl/mlb have no restrictions againtmst women playing in the league....cmon ladies step it up
Okay, you've got me. I hit the bell. I've never seen one of your videos or any content from you before- but your dry sense of humor @ 3:00, combined with well-versed explanations throughout the video.. yup. Based.
Explained everything but except for how its fair that average male athletes can become female champions.
I've had this argument with people before, where they think going through male puberty is some sort of unfair advantage in sports, and I just flip the argument to force them to acknowledge that trans girls shouldn't be denied gender confirming hormone therapy and forced to go through male puberty.
Those two opinions aren’t mutually exclusive. It is possible for someone to think that trans women have an unfair advantage in some sports AND ALSO think that their gender identity should be respected.
First of all those two points are completely different, secondly why would you be proud to flip the argument to something unrelated? Sounds like you're just being a dick.
kids can't make life altering permanent decisions by themselves and that's how it should be because a lot of times the gender dysphoria confusion goes away with puberty as your hormones start to change and it shows you how good being a man or being a woman is that doesn't mean men should be given an opportunity to compete against women.
The class argument is pretty lame. Yes, many people are prevented from joining because they cannot affoard the time to aggressively practice, but that’s an accessibility problem, not a performance one. If an impoverished person trained as much as a rich person, they would be performing at an equal level on average. The same cannot he said about sex. You can give the hormone level argument, which is valid, but that makes the class element entirely moot
Could this matter be settled by adding weight classes to sports? Trans women have as much of an advantage as cis women who are born with sturdier bodies, more testosterone, larger shoulders, etc. Wouldn't the solution be to just add weight classes to different sports as we see in boxing for instance?
I think skill classes would work as well. Add some sort of baselines and then run trials or something for all athletes, then distribute accordingly.
The weight fluctuations fighters go throug is very unhealthy and I don't think that's something we should be encouraging, especially to kids in a society full of eating disorders.
I love this video I gotta show it to my dad to help explain the trans sports things.
P.s love that dress where do I get it
As a Chinese, I can tell you this is also a very heated topic. Saying it's exclusive to UK and US is non sense. Other parts of the English worlds is also have a lot of debates.
As a South African, the Caster Semenya thing made me so mad. If we're so dedicated to "fairness", why aren't we testing Michael Phelps for seal/dolphin genes and upping his lactic acid production?
Can you not see the difference between your what you are arguing?? Caster is intersex. There is an obvious difference in physicality between intersex and non-intersex people. As a group they would lie between males and females in the distribution of physical traits. Michael Phelps on the other hand is a biological male competing with biological males. His physical advantage is purely the result of superior genetics to all other males. In fact, we see clustering of certain physical and mental traits in all sports.
And notice we don't tend to see trans men compete with cis men. Because they are at an obvious physical disadvantage. No amount of word salad will make it so trans and intersex women as a group will be on par with cis women.
@@Bradley_Lute both Phelps and caster have "superior genetics". You are just arbitrarily deciding which genetic traits are acceptable and which are not
@@user-zl7sv6go3pCaster is neither male or female. Phelps is a male. These are literally the only traits we are controlling for in sport. And the only reason we are doing that for is the obvious advantages certain groups have over others. Trans and intersex people of both genders lie intermediate to the physically intermediate between the two sexes. If you are a trans woman who is physically superior to all cis women, then you have to assume it's because you are trans. Because you were born male.
@@Bradley_Lute what about tall people?
@@Bradley_Lute dude didn't even watch the video and just went straight to the comments
there should be trans sports. end of discussion. we dont mix men and women, we shouldnt mix cis and trans.
Right, sure. As the Governor of Utah noted, there are 75,000 kids playing high school sports in Utah, 4 are trans, and 1 playing in women's sports.
@@erikheymann9390 WOMEN and MEN (adults) not boys and girls (NOT adults) why the fuck would anyone care what public school does? Your kids at a public school, stop acting like you care about their upbringing, you clearly dont
@@erikheymann9390 furthermore, being trans is an ADULT DECISION, unless you can show me some biology in a kid that guarantees they'll be trans, it's a decision an adult makes, not a minor, school sports should go by SEX not GENDER
@@erikheymann9390 we don't identify each other by sniffing each other's assholes like animals. Identity is a societal concept, not a biological one. Your self identity is the same. You have every right to it, but you can't treat it like your biological sex, that's a biological thing you cannot change no matter the amount of surgery.
@@archeryan8404 Why don't you ask me if I even have any kids in public school before you say something totally asinine like that. I don't. The Governor of Utah was specifically concerned about Utah's high school athletic association, which includes public AND private schools. But do I take it you'd be in favor of allowing trans kids to play the sport of their gender identity?
You also missed the point about the Utah numbers - the number of trans athletes at any level is miniscule. Given that about 200,000 people participate in NCAA sports, you'd expect just from population numbers that there would be somewhere between 1000-2000 trans athletes. But that's not what is actually seen - the number is far less. So you're essentially relegating them to not doing sports at all, and definitely not team sports like soccer.
sports aren't supposed to be fair . point blank period
It is most fair for the division to be made between sex rather then gender. I know that doesn't solve all issues. Hopefully as society gets better more transgender people have access to puberty blockers and then hormones into adulthood which I think will change this issue again.
"It has become popular among Republican lawmakers and some thinkers (I spit out my coffee before you could finish with) around Europe" Excellent video.
Short answer: No
Long Answer: NO!
But why ?
@@orenz.272 Biological difference.
@@GoneFishingAway Which are ?
@@orenz.272 Isn't it obvious? Strength and Muscles. It's no secret that males are physically and naturally stronger than females, and this is due testosterone, which naturally in higher levels in males. Even if both sexes worked out the same routine, the male would still beat the female.
@@GoneFishingAway The studies done on Transwomen reveal that they preform no better than cis-women, except for a 12% more stamina on average. If you watched the video all your points would be refuted. Give it a chance, and drop the blind hate and listen to actual science and experiments.
The proposal of Jane English sounds a bit like what happens in football, with teams at the top and bottom of the standings being promoted or relegated. It would be fluid at the margins but I don't see why it wouldn't work.
It's only with every Mia Mulder video that I try and "like" it twice if not thrice!!!
Justin Roczniak: "First we must ask, what is sports?"
hey, so I fully agree on much of this, however Males do have significantly higher levels of testosterone, as well as being more sensitive to it, but this simply contributes to that 38% difference between men and women weightlifters. I would like to say that the reason Trans Men in those data charts performed better than Cis men because the body reacts differently to exogenous testosterone than it does endogenous testosterone, and testosterone differences are one of the big reasons for differences in muscle growth and size between men and women. I also know that transitioning male to female doesn't strip that much muscle off the body if done while maintaining a consistent and healthy exercise routine, so that could also be part of the apparent advantage trans women have over Cis women in certain sports, but like to said that doesn't make much of a difference in most sports, not to mention the sociocultural inequalities between the sexes in sports.
also testosterone readings may be a complete misnomer for the actual level of testosterone available for the body to use just because people have varying levels of sex hormone binding globulin.
@@Bolts_Films i dont agree or disagree but i just wanted to say this sounds intelligent
"I also know that transitioning male to female doesn't strip that much muscle off the body if done while maintaining a consistent and healthy exercise routine"
That's not true. Those data charts are from soldiers who HAVE to keep a healthy exercise routine, and there's no difference between trans and cis women in the strength exercises.
@@62koalalover please take a statistics class lol. Believe whatever you’re going to but the testosterone cut off limit currently established and enforced by WADA is 10nmol/l, which is roughly 280 NG/DL, (the standard unit for measuring blood levels) now the reference range for healthy males is between 200 and 1000, it varies depending on where you are, and the reference range for healthy females is 10-50, again varying depending on location. Do you really think it’s 100% fair that one select segment of the population competing gets to compete with up to 7 times the testosterone of the Cis women they’re competing against? Testosterone is a PED, that’s why it’s banned. I’m not against trans people competing whatsoever, Im all for it, the current guidelines are just not based on up to date science. There are cos women with naturally higher test levels than the limit, and as we’ve seen they’re also being banned from competition, which is fucked up. I don’t have a solution to this problem, but if one is going to come and work across the board it will have to be based on the data.
@@Bolts_Films Trans women on hrt have the same levels of testosterone as cis women, and they perform the same in stength based exercises in the data you mentioned. Also if there are cis women being excluded by the testosterone requirements then why do you think that level is unreasonably high for trans women?
29:00 as a former Swimmer I can say that this is just not true. Michael Phelps had an ideal body for swimming, but there's tons with a similar body. There's nothing special about his body that gave him an advantage. He competed against numerous swimmer with an equal if not better body.
It unfortunately shows, that you have limited knowledge of this topic.
As a current swimmer you're an idiot. "Body" doesn't mean physique here.
Ok, I couldn’t sleep so now I finished watching the essay. So, now you get two comments for the algorithm.
I found this really interesting. I’m glad I stumbled across it and I look forward to watching more.
Thank you for the video. The Robert's study of Air Force PT scores is problematic due to the fact that it wasn't built to be a study of transgender performance. It took preexisting data and divided it into 3 bins. One bin of tests that took place in the first year after the start of hormone therapy, one bin of tests that took place between one to two years of hormone therapy, and a third bin that took place between two and two and a half years after the initiation of hormone therapy. The start of transition was not timing with the tests.
The Harper study showed that transgender women did no better in running against women then what they had done against men. If you were an elite athlete before, you will still be an elite athlete. On the other hand, if you weren't an elite athlete before transition then you won't turn into one.
just casually ignoring Lia Thomas
@@Arionid did you actually watch the video? Lia Thomas won one race.
@@christinaocasio yes, she was in the lower tiers while swimming in mens divisions yet soon as she transitions, she is one of the best swimmers in her unfairly chosen category, not only winning that one race but absolutely demolishing the records previously set by biological women
rank 500 in mens division then suddenly rank 5th in the womens, clearly there are no biological differences at play here
yes youre right lets just pretend wider shoulders and narrower hips werent proven to be more aerodynamic by the laws of physics
By lower tiers, you mean a top swimmer on one of the best swim teams in the nation. Being the 9th best swimmer in the 1000 yard freestyle and 29th in the 1,650 yard freestyle the last year she competed in the men's division. But go ahead and call 9th lower tier.
@@christinaocasio "During the last season Thomas competed as a member of the Penn men’s team, which was 2018-19, she ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. As her career at Penn wrapped, she moved to fifth, first and eighth in those respective events on the women’s deck"
easy to cherry pick the one good stat and ignore the rest that dont even reach top 20
her rank changed because the goalpost shifted, started competing against a demographic she is more likely to outperform
thereby becoming an "elite athlete" overnight
following the trend, if the top 1 male swimmer joined the womens division he would win every single time by default, almost like theres a biological difference between elite female and elite male athletes, and therefore lower tier athletes as well