DEBATE: Is the Doctrine of Purgatory True? (Horn vs. White)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- In this debate hosted on February 17, 2024, Trent Horn and James White debate the question: Is the Doctrine of Purgatory True?
To Support This Channel: / counseloftrent
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:08 - Horn Opening
00:18:05 - White Opening
00:33:12 - Horn First Rebuttal
00:40:23 - White First Rebuttal
00:47:37 - Horn Second Rebuttal
00:51:46 - White Second Rebuttal
00:56:23 - Cross Examination
01:37:40 - Audience Q+A
01:59:30 - Horn Closing
02:04:19 - White Closing - บันเทิง
This isn’t a fair fight. Trent has over a millennia of doctrinal teaching and instruction handed down from the apostles themselves!
Why is this so funny lol
And he has to deal with all contradictions.
The Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33 AD
1Timothy 3:15!
She will never be destroyed, Gamaliel, Acts 5:38-39!33AD
Council of Trent 2024AD!!!
Holy Spirit at work!!!
You’re assuming that the apostles and the church is right. Both horn and white can be wrong
“I’ve been looking forward to this.” ~ Count Dooku
Twice the Protestantism, double the fall
Trent - “My powers have doubled since the last time we met, James.”
Is it possible to exegete scripture correctly?
*Trent:* Not for a Protestant.
The catholic church is a pathway to many abilities some would consider to be... unnatural.
The catholic church is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be supernatural.
Debating James White must feel like purgatory 💔
Being in a Lutheran church
Yes, doing good works covers your own sins as the Bible says which White does not believe
Peak comedy
Purgatory is actually just listening to James White unnecessarily speak in Greek and reference the 90s over and over and over...
maybe even a level lower? 🤣
Trent 3 - White 0
According to you
acording to protestants who commented on the lutheran channel were the debates were held.... be honest bro... white did not argue anything...
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 ......therefore your sin remains!!!! John 9:41!!!
For starters!!!
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 The only people who think James white won are TULIP prots.
@@laforjadelcreyente.You mean the videos with the closed comment sections lmao
I’m Protestant. Somebody needs to check on White, this was a really bad performance. I’m not the biggest fan of White, but the brother needs to actually attend to the topic instead of an almost ad hominem attack against Catholicism. The debate is about purgatory, not the Catholic belief of it. And then acts like Horn was the aggressor. Wow, I’m sorry but this is not a proper or reasonable method of debate.
Go ahead and check on him yourself!! What kind of words can you say for him to listen to? Why does he have to listen to you?
What authority do you or anyone have for that matter?
Protestants do not have any authority whatsoever
Blind leading the blind!!!
@@perazdera2827 do you know what doctrine is? It’s teaching that is handed on. To know Christ is to know what he taught and by extension the Apostles and early Church fathers along with the Church.
Lack of understanding scripture and the doctrines is a lack of understanding Christ
@@perazdera2827 Better to seek God than try to think you understand Scripture when you don't. You can quote anything you want but it's you who lacks discernment. Remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck in others.
@@perazdera2827Good luck. You are easily self-deceived.
@@perazdera2827 Jesus didn’t begin a Church?
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
The Church is the body of believers AND there is a physical structure of the Church with priests, bishops and deacons.
Trent does a really good job representing the Catholic Faith.
James does a good job of slandering Catholics while answering no questions.
Yup!
Purgatory is a,ridiculous nonsensical doctrine. The fact that you guys think anyone can defend it well is,delusional l.
getting some closet klansman vibes from James. NGL.
Yeah, Trent got this one hands down
As a protestant, I consider White to be a catholic. :)
Watched it live. Could not believe how poorly White argued his position. Basically was “these unofficial Catholic sources say XYZ about Purgatory, and that’s ridiculous! Therefore, Purgatory is false.”
It was essentially an argument from incredulity, and Trent was right to point out that “my opponent should be using official teachings, not some individual’s speculative theology.”
I feel that for several years he has been grasping at the wind trying to disprove the Catholic Church. God please take down his pride and bring him to the truth.
@@dandersen464
Idk how accurate this is so take it with a grain of salt.
But from what I understand James’ whites father was a baptist pastor who had allegations of abuse; either sexual or that he was stealing (I’ve heard both from different sources, again take it with a grain of salt)
And his sister left their church when she was an adult and became a catholic and she basically said whatever allegations against their father were true.
This obviously would have caused a great deal of shame for White; but he has levied those negative feelings against the Catholic Church as a scapegoat.
individual’s speculative theology, literally, that's the entire basis of the five solaes and the framework of protestanstism, "evangelicalsim", reconstructionsim, bible societies, and all other made in-U.S fundamentalist cereal box "christianities".
Hmm, interesting. It is sad when things like that happen. I honestly don’t know if I would have been rooted enough in my faith as a young person to go through that and still pursue Christianity.
@@zacharynelson5731That’s what I heard, too, and I watched an interview with a woman who I assumed was his sister, and she mentioned her brother was a prominent Protestant speaker. Her name is Patty Bonds.
During James White’s “opening statement” me and my fiancé were commentating and were saying how that was just a bitter, poorly constructed rebuttal. Glad Trent pointed this out in his first rebuttal. Also ironic how White said Trent was being unpleasant, considering James is usually very arrogant and unpleasant to listen to.
I agree with all your points about James White. He’s a bitter calvinist.
Trent’s arguments all boiled down to basically ‘God needs more time’ and ‘somehow your death + something = perfection’
It’s basically James White’s exact position just with a special non-Biblical made-up name.
@@G1stGBless I think the Trinity is also made-up strictly speaking. Does not make it untrue.
@@G1stGBless Incorrect.
Everything White accuses others of is what he himself is guilty of.
@@G1stGBlessTrent never said not catholics believe God need more time. This is absolute falsehood. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
It is funny that the catholic quotes the Bible more times than the protestant 😅
Well, it is a Catholic book after all
NT Scripture was written by Catholics and for Catholics. It stands to reason only a Catholic would understand it.
@@curtisjordan9210 Just don't translate it to English, right? (kidding)
@@ihiohoh2708English bibles existed before Tyndale
@@ihiohoh2708i well the king James was miss translated
Trent: "I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory."
James: "Here's what Ludwig Ott wrote about purgatory, and he's wrong if you assume Calvinism."
“I will not debate speculative theology about the duration of purgatory”
“St Robert believed purgatory could last for decades”
Hahahaha
@zacharynelson5731 you and James White are confuse with regards to an individual vs. the church, or you are too lazy to research how doctrines came to be.
Trent: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory”
Trent: provides mostly his own (or Akin’s) theological opinion about purgatory.
Trent’s supporters: Trent is teaching sound theology that has always been the belief of “the church”.
Some future apologists: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about Purgatory (Trent’s opinions….Akin’s opinions)
That future apologists supporters: This apologist is teaching sound theology that has always been believed by “the church”.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303What he is defending is only what has been dogmatically defined.
Every night I pray for both Trent Horn and James White, by name. I thank God for Mr Horn and ask God to bless him with continued success in his apologetics. I ask God every night to enlighten Mr White and to bring him into the Church.
James white already by the scripture. read the bible for yourself not your religion
@@ninamaelabiste5557I read the Bible every day. I am convinced that the teaching authority of the Church is in scripture. Likewise, I am convinced that the doctrine of purgatory is true.
@mikesarno7973 the Catholic Church made the bible in 382AD. She predates the bible by 350 years!!! It is her daughter!!!
@ninamaelabiste5557 where in the bible did Jesus order to read any books???
@@davido3026I agree that the Holy Spirit, working through the Church, chose the writings that we today recognize as the Bible.
I've struggled previously with a defense for purgatory, perhaps because I did not comprehend fully myself. This is the clearest description and defense of purgatory that I've seen. Great job Trent!
He does a great job. Also look up Dr brand pitre on purgatory. He puts it brilliantly
Everyone sins even after becoming Christian.
This problem needs addressing at the end of the day.
Catholics came up with the concept of purgatory to have the final cleansing of imperfection of a person.
Since, protestants rejects this idea, they have to come up with the concept with the doctrine of imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is simple, for protestants : Jesus Christ, you took upon yourself my sins on the cross and therefore we must exchange my sins with your righteousness by default.
This might be a clear presentation but it is a faulty one. He uses a brand new and unique theory of the interpretation of the Corinthian passage that is clearly not correct, neither Protestants nor Catholic scholars interpret that passage that way today or have so in the past. We would have never known that fact if not for the cross examination. I have watched Trent debate numerous times and he does this over and over. As a debater, Trent is one of the best I have seen, very smooth and convincing but he hides unique and one of a kind interpretations all the time.
The power of the confessional is for the priests authority over the laity. Catholics have a insufferable sense of guilt throughout their journey. Luther was so obsessive about his sins,he was without any insurance regarding his sins were forgiven.
Grace is taken for granted and thats the problem. Staying under the authority of their priests and anti christ popes is not the way jesus wanted it.
I have yet to hear an anti Catholic voice that was not filled with either anger, frustration or sarcasm. I was like this when I was a Protestant.
Yeah, idk. I'm not a catholic but I don't hate you guys. I hear james' bitter attitude, but I also hear that from plenty of catholics. I think that's a human problem, not a denominational one. Eyes on self, not on God.
He who has ears let him hear
@briggy4359 Catholicism is not a denomination!!!
It is the essence of Christianity , here it is, a clue for you: Acts 2:5-13
Catholic means universal!!!!
I mean I’ve yet to hear a catholic voice actually address atheism without frustration too
@davido3026 perfect example of that anger, frustration, and sarcasm.
I was always just accepting purgatory with docility, but this really helped me get it. Thank you Trent.
Obviously in some sense we accept God..created black holes with docility. We won't demand evidence how it came to exist , evidence from God. But this is different. I reject purgatory. As I reject the rapture. Because there in my ignorance I cannot see evidence for both. But recently I've heard of "bi location" which I guess God allows souls from purgatory to manifest or God manifests them on earth in the human world. So yeah but they could come from hell or heaven. So I still reject purgatory. But if it's truth that Christ preached or his word preaches then I'll accept purgatory. Of course I want to know does this place exist regardless wether I personally view it or never view it? Yes it does as does God. But I certainly do yearn to accept it I just can't do so with docility. However Mr.wjife would definitely fail not "convincing me" only Providing evidence so I can pour time into believing it as to praying for God to show me it's true.
Is the Bible not the word of God? Is Jesus Chris is a liar?
You are not a Christian if you believe in Catholic rituals and historical beliefs over the word of God.
Luke 23:33-43 (LSB): The Crucifixion
33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.
34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” AND THEY CAST LOTS, DIVIDING UP HIS GARMENTS AMONG THEMSELVES.
35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were scoffing at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,
37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!”
38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
39 And one of the criminals hanging there was blaspheming Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for what we have done; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
I actually was very confused. I am a former Catholic. Always heard Purgatory the way White explained it, and was confused by Trents take. Also Matthew 5 has nothing about purgatory.
@chanano1689 as a recovering Catholic, I can confirm the Bible does not mention Purgatory or Catholics anywhere. Those were terms made by man, hundreds of years after Christ's death!
@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618I agree. I think the Scriptures that were used by Trent where extremely weak, and no where else in Scripture will we use the same mode of interpretation. I think they are just coping at this moment.
James white was awfully unprepared. Talking smack about Pope Francis, Catholic teaching “changing”, and mentioning other theologians opinions. Instead to address the topic using scripture or even admitting some of Trent Horns points might be true. He relies on “cmon folks , you know how Rome operates, you know they invented this” “I have the proper interpretation of the scriptures” “I am better than any past popes, church fathers, or any other theologian” ……yeah White you lost the debate the moment you started it. Good Job Trent for doing his homework and bring a strong and clear case for Purgatory. Even if there still are Protestants out there who won’t change their mind, at least now they can see where The Church is coming from to declare purgatory to be true with Biblical support.
He was even worse in the Sola Scriptura debate. Both his opening statements have been bad Faith attacks. If you watch the end of the last one, he refused to acknowledge Catholics as a Christian Denomination. I'd argue he was unprepared due to arrogance and bad Faith
@@Garry_CombineWhite might be exhausted. Even if he lost this debate, that doesn't mean purgatory is true.
@@kevinevans8892 I'm not arguing the doctrine, just the debate practices. I also called Trent out on several comments for being too pushy and interrupting.
@@kevinevans8892 I also don't need Rome to tell me it's true, C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion of purgatory with the Protestant Bible. If he can get that without 2 Maccabees, then it's a logical conclusion from Scripture. I have no reason to doubt him or the Church Fathers on the matter since we're going there.
Unprepared? There’s nothing to prepare for. Purgatory is no where in the Bible and in fact James White was actually being nice in not just coming out and destroying Trent with actual Biblical passages.
Sam shamoun said that if Trent wins this debate, he’s a rock star! He’s never seen anyone dismantle james white like trent did on the sola scrip debate! I have to agree with sam, excellent performance!
He didn't dismantle any one
Can you provide an unbiased account of the debate.
@@gideondavid30 Ok main take aways: Trent got white to admit, sola scriptura wasnt the rule for the church and wasnt possible until after the 4th century when scripture was complete. He refused to give a date for when the church started using it. Later in the q&a, hes asked: when did the traditions of the catholic church start as an authority for the church. He said “2nd century desert fathers!” What an admission! So in Dr. whites own view, catholic traditions are older than sola scriptura but at least 300 years!
Again, he couldnt provide a date so that 300 years is as generous as he is being towards his own beliefs! White wanted trent to name some other infallible rule. He immediately said the canon and James had zero defense.
James White is a bible scholar that refuses to credit any of the men that assembled the canon as if was an easy task. He refused to give dates, he got stumped on the canon, and tried to bait trent into defending the papacy over half a dozen times!
@gideondavid30 it's your turn, sweetie. Whenever you're ready. Take your time
@@waseemhermiz7565 LOL
@@timboslice980
1. O.K. I need a time stamp for when James White admitted that sola scriptura wasn't the rule of faith for the early church. Please provide context to the admission as well.
I am fairly certain that Jame's position is that scripture was in oral form first. That doesn't disprove sola scriptura though. This goes to the question of infallibility and what the early church relied on.
2. traditions of the Catholic Church. I need a time stamp. Provide it for me with context. James White's position on tradition is whether it can be proven to be traced to the 1st century or not.
3. How is the canon "some other infallible rule"? The formal of the canon has nothing to do with the debate between sola scriptura and sola ecclesia you do realize this right?
4. You're mistaken. James White does give credit to those who formed the canon, what he doesn't agree with is the notion of church infallibility. Of course the pope is going to be brought up because the entire Roman Catholic faith is built upon that office. All the unique Catholic doctrines found no where in scripture are ushered in through Papal infallibility.
The debate was set when James White gave his introduction and didn't give an actual argument against purgatory.
@@MrPeach1
I meant against purgatory. Sorry about that.
@@vtaylor21 i deleted my comment since you edited the op and my comment doesnt make sense now
As an outside observer, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that we are actually in purgatory now.
@@CMA418 married eh?
@@MrPeach1 😂😂
One thing about most of these debates with informed interlocutors. I wish that the question would be asked "why do you think your opponent isn't seeing what you are seeing?" He has the same data as you. Also in the same vein. "You could be wrong what could be preventing you from seeing that?" It just seems like an interesting thought experiment.
That would be a great question.
Good questions, but somewhat hard to answer. I would guess Trent might identify presuppositions about sanctification and justification that James holds that Trent would argue are flawed, and James would say the same about Trent, perhaps adding that he doesn't believe that Trent honestly reached his presuppositions on his own but because "Rome told him he has to accept them."
No protestant is guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore the amount of data they have amounts to piles of vain information.
Conversely, the Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD!!!
@@John_Fisherthe Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD
@@davido3026 no proof of this
Trent is a nightmare match up for James White when it comes to debates. 3-0.
What was the third debate?
@@Garry_Combinetheir first debate was about if a Christian can lost their salvation. Their 2nd debate was about Sola Scriptura (Bible alone) and this video is their third debate about Purgatory.
I KNEW I MISSED ON@@stevenirizarry9427
@@stevenirizarry9427 I KNEW I MISSED ONE!
I wear the brown scapular and was surprised when White brought that up in his closing statement.
The thing White said about the brown scapular and his assumption on the reasons why Catholic wearing are to me, almost identical to the way an atheist judge Christianity on things he completely misunderstood.
Turns out, he is well informed with knowledge but completely lack the understanding of the essence. Seems like that exactly the case with our protestant friends.
He always throws in smug comments on random devotions in his closings to make Catholicism look woo woo
This is an astute observation. Protestants devolve to arguments that are atheistic and that completely undermine all of Christianity.
Trent was visibly annoyed by that. (I was at the debate).
What is the purpose of wearing that?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 The scapulars (all, not just the brown) are small versions of a specific religious orders habit. The brown scapular is the small version of the Carmelite habit. The Carmelite order and spirituality were very popular during the middle ages so I believe this is the reason it is so popular. Not to mention its generally just seen as a great devotion to Mary. The origin of the Scapular is said to have been given to St. Simon Stock by the Virgin Mary, however I don't think this is true and seems to be mostly fabricated. Regardless the Sabbatine privilege is not true *in and of itself*. Wearing the scapular and saying the rosary every day won't save you. But it will definitely help us get closer to God, which brings us closer to Heaven.
@@Xymage thanks for taking time to explain that. Appreciate it
Oh James starting your debate by making fun of Pope Francis, or other Catholics just to win the audience is a big L.
he can’t help himself
Trent even went out of his way to specify that he was arguing the basics of purgation that even some Protestants believe but James can't help but pull the "Catholic bad" card.
I noticed this pattern when I was becoming a catholic.
If you filter out the ad hominem and genetic fallacies from Protestant arguments; what usually remains has very little actual substance
@zacharynelson5731 That is how and why they appeal and recourse to emotional argument and not solid reasoning instedad! They have no valid basis!
Actually it's a big LL (double loser)
So the other day, a Protestant preacher was talking about premarital sex. He was trying to tell the crowd not to worry or feel guilty if that was a sin they committed because they were forgiven if they asked Jesus to forgive them. But then he also went on to explain the emotional consequences of having premarital sex without commitment and the pain that comes after a breakup and the issues you have to deal with in future relationships due to your past sins. He was giving an argument for purgatory. Of course, you can be forgiven in Christ, but sin has temporal consequences.
That’s a really great way to look at it!
Oops. Accidentally Catholic
Not to feel guilty? You are supposed to feel guilty and thus ask God for forgiveness because of those temporal consequences and the offence to God.
@@johnnotrealname8168 We should definitely feel guilt to some degree, but we can be washed of that guilt because of Jesus; namely, through the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession
@@scrapdog2113 No, we are never washed of the guilt. You are not, and should not, be washed of the guilt of murder just because you confess it.
I'm genuinely surprised at how bad James White is at debating. It's like he doesn't do any preparation at all and only has a surface level understanding of the topic.
He defends the indefensible
That’s how he made his career and it worked for him so why change now?
This is his MO. He is incapable of engaging with anyone's actual arguments instead of whatever he thinks they are arguing.
Trent, great job! I was there both nights, with my Catholic convert friend and my Church of Christ preacher friend (I know, it sounds like the start of joke 😄). We all agreed you were the clear "winner" in this Purgatory debate. You got James White *thisclose* to admitting a postmortem purification; in fact, I'd say that he did admit it.
He was only a winner in your eyes, because you guys are still blinded, and still in your sin, because you have not been regenerated and born again you’re still blind, and a slave to sin🤷♀️😞
@@carolwilliams383 🤡
@@carolwilliams383That's a great way of not actually showing why we're wrong
Evangelical here, White's opening statement was lazy, poor and inaccurate. Incredibly disappointed by him.
"You will know them by their fruits."
You are right, a balanced high quality debate would be more helpful. God bless you!
A good friend of mine, evangelical for 26 years, recently became catholic after getting her masters in theology at a Baptist college. She was deeply disappointed in the shallow and contradictory theology she encountered there. She started her degree as a Protestant and graduated a catholic.
@@amysill3815 Maybe just maybe that was yet another of those liberal theological colleges that fails to deliver on the claims they make from the outset?
As a former Irish RC (now evangelical) I feel sorry for your friend having crossed over to that side. You can have all of the religion you want in that camp but little of the real Christ and fulfilment that I found elsewhere.
And for that, I am eternally grateful to my heavenly Father for my spiritual eyes having been opened.
@amysill3815 John Henry Newman, an anglican minister, vitriolic enemy of the Catholic church studied the catholic "falsehood" , converted to it, became a priest and cardinal an ended up a canonized Saint in 2019 by the church he had formerly hated with all his heart!!!!!
Thank you Trent for showing the Catholic truth.
Thank you White for strengthening the Catholic faith.
That is the benefit of these debates for us christians, they strengthen our true catholic faith
Amen
True ❤
Nothing shakes the believers in mystery Babylon !
Protestants out here doing us favors :)
@jsharp9735 The Catholic church, the Rock, has never moved since 33AD!! She never will!
I find it Ironic that a calvinists keeps quoting," this is doctrine developed over time." Calvin was in the 1500's. 2000 years after the Crucifixion of Christ.
Your numbers are all over the place
It's not that hard to understand the protestant position. Let's stop parroting around false narratives about fellow believers in Christ. The reformers purpose was to bring the Church back to the original teachings of the gospel. Remember Luther was excommunicated by the catholic church. Luther's goal was not to create a "new church".
@@SKgyebaekdouble imputation is the core of the reformation and it was never heard of until luther.
@9 keep up. It's only 2
@aek Maybe that's how he started. But that's not how he finished he went way off. Eventually he did.
I thought it was interesting when James White said, "that's a cheap shot and you know it and everybody in the room knows it!" It's interesting because James does the same thing quite often, just watch any of his debates and you'll find this tactic being employed, I kinda feel like it would be hard to find a debate from anyone where this doesn't happen, it's in my opinion just a fun, lighthearted way of poking at your opponent. Maybe James White didn't like it because he read Mark Twain say, "There's more truth in jest!!" Great debate Trent I thought you're opening statement was awesome, thanks and God bless you
Trent was correct when he pointed out that White didn’t make an opening statement.
A test for this is that if you edited the video and switched the order would it be coherent?
In whites case no it wouldn’t.
Also, what’s funny is I believe in both a debate with Bart Ehrman many years ago and another debate with a Muslim apologist
Both Ehrman and the Muslim did the same thing; where they went second but gave a rebuttal instead of an opening statement.
And White called them out on it both times.
He did a cheap shot in e or the other debate, when he said Trent Horn was arguing against Christ's position (He really meant his own position.)
Clearly Trent Horn won this debate. 👏🎉👏🎉
Yes, he won even before it started!!!!
Agreed. James White was just poor. The fact that he has a PhD… I expected more of a good debate.
@@abiecader
Your degrees and PhD. do not count before God!
Peter a simple fisherman, was chosen by God as the first pope!!! Peter ordained Apostles, baptized pagans and dictated doctrine infallibly!!! God confirmed his decision!! No PhD needed!!!
@@davido3026 With respect. Your response has taken me by surprise? By the way, I agree with you 100%.
I am Catholic, I will defend the faith.
I made some comments, and was challenged by one or two protestants and atheist ask me to substantiate why I say what I said. As I said, if the doctrine of the Church is being challenged and I am asked to defend it, I will do so, which I did by offering a rebuttal.
Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee.
@@abiecader PhD lmao, he's got one from Columbia Evangelical Seminary, an unaccredited online school. He's not a real Doctor of Theology (or Doctor of anything for that matter).
Watched this earlier on a different channel. Got to say, I was shocked at how badly prepared White seemed to be.
He was probably so overconfident that he barely prepared at all
He's unwell, that's his excuse
James White is not unprepared( double negative), he just cannot find a good argument against the topic. Plus James White's parrot-ish style, speaking without knowing what he talks about very apparent here. In this debate I see white as a fireworks display, while Trent a firing range.
@@echomike8591 I have a perfect argument. Purgatory is impossible if the resurrection of the Saints is true. If all past and present believers are to take part in the resurrection of the Saints " Which happens to everyone who belongs to Christ" , then in no fashion can purgatory be true. It's a logistical impossibility. What really nails the coffin lid shut on purgatory is what happens to those alive in Christ on that day. They are changed in a blink of an eye and gathered to the Lord with the rest of their brothers and sisters. Wait!? Were they not also supposed to go through a purgatory? Kinda strange that no one is serving any type of sentence in that situation isn't it? And it being taught that all purgatory sentences are different sure as heck makes this impossible. Just a thought I have never heard anyone bring up.
@bairfreedom modern day catholics acknowledge Purgatory can happen in a blink of an eye and is event rather than a place.
So no it doesn't work plus there is lot of scripture not talked about here that points to purgatory
I ask this seriously; Is James OK? He seems really frazzled and irritated. I thought Trent was very charitable, but James seemed ready to fight and his arguments were all over the place. I usually like listening to James White in these debates, but this felt like he was very off.
I think he decided long ago that he does not want purgatory to be true, so therefore he will not accept any argument for its reality.
Therefore he was very unprepared for when he came into this debate.
I picked up the same that James is frazzled. Also check his ears turning red… Trent however is very composed. Holds good argument.
We also have to accept if a Protestant accept that there is purgatory obliterates sola scriptura argument.
You apparently watched the wrong debate 😂... Trent was the one who was irritated and nasty. Trent even admitted this... Next time, lay off the booze before tou comment
@@CalebPreach4245 I've seen you in another comment accuse people of being drunk because they disagree with you. Do you have a problem?
@@brittoncain5090 she is displaying classic projection
So many Protestants (like me when I was one) are adamant that the Bible says nothing about purgatory. Trent does an amazing job in his first couple minutes laying out why that's not the case. Maybe the strongest point, which many didn't catch, is that the word "gehenna" was an actual Jewish image of something almost identical to purgatory. Your Bible probably just says "hell" to translate that word, and maybe it refers to a permanent state at times, but the word used was Gehenna.
The book Trent cites is by Simcha Raphael, Jewish Views of the Afterlife, I believe. I spoke with Raphael, a very kind man, and he laid out this very issue for me 2 years ago. He said in Jesus' time, the view of the afterlife was that most went to Gehenna to be purged for a time before going to Gan Eden (heaven). He did say that some saw this as a destruction into ashes or as eternal torment, and, oddly, many of the sources used all three views together, like almost everybody gets out, but some are tormented forever, but as the others leave, the dust and ashes from those who were there permanently were on their sandles. Soon after Christ, the Jewish belief on Gehenna solidified into it being a maximum 12-month process of cleansing, so not even the most evil was there permanently or annihilated. This is why Jews consider it wrong to mourn your parents for more than 11 months, because you'd be dishonoring them by assuming they had the maximum amount of evil to be cleansed. All that to say, if the Bible says Gehenna, rather than just apply your modern understanding of the word, tainted by centuries of various theological opinion, it's important to consider what the word meant to Jesus' audience. They would have heard something much more like purgatory than hell, or maybe a place/state that had potential to be either. So saying "it's not in the Bible" is not true.
Now if you are catholic if you are not orthodox and roman.cathiloc than you are considered to be a heretic based on history. Orthodox real catholic church
42:36
“Purgatory” by Fr Schouppe does contain the doctrinal teachings on purgatory at the beginning of the book; but the vast majority of the book falls under what Trent was talking about at the beginning of the debate about “speculations” on purgatory; given that what Fr Schouppe uses as sources are stories from the saints which fall under private revelation.
James reinterpreted Catholic teaching to mean what he believes it to mean, then criticises his interpretation. Just like Protestants do with the Bible.
Yeah, like his sister said about her brother after her conversion: "He fights a church that does not exist".
Give me an example.
@@aadschram5877There are fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Anyone who doesn't understand the differences is just ignorant. White's sister doesn't know what she is talking about.
@@gideondavid30 Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary and statues. Protestants claiming Catholics worship the Pope.
There are plenty more strawman arguments like this which the Catholic church does not actually teach but pretended by Prots through misinterpreting Catholic positions based on their own confusion.
Turn to jesus there is no purgatory .
Trent I loved your firm attitude with Mr. White. Great job! You represented Jesus and His Church extremely well.
More like represented the Catholic tradition I don't think Jesus was much of a fan of men's Traditions remember those Pharisees?
@@corydittman4639 Cory, no Christian today is free of following tradition. We are all handed down the tradition we know. Every denomination is a "tradition" of interpretation and authoritative teaching. Protestantism did not solve this problem. The question is is the tradition a Sacred one passed down to us by Jesus.
Here's a question - where is the commandment in the Bible that says that if you disagree with the Church you can start a new one? When the Bible clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
@@PatrickSteil Acts 17:11. Have you read that? How will you test anything if your treachings come from catholic church?
@@maryanna682 - Exactly! Acts 17: 11.
@@PatrickSteil There is no CHURCH as you are trying to use the word. Christ wrote to CHURCHES. Paul and Peter visited Churches.
Church is the body of Christ. RCC is not part of it.
1:23
James: "The term 'unpleasant' doesn't-isn't relevant"
Trent: "okay, well, In Heb 12 it says 'for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant...'"
James: '"If you want to use that term... I would never preach a sermon using that term.."
Trent: "I'm sorry you won't preach what the Bible says."
🤣 A cheeky side of Trent rarely seen. White didn't like the taste of a classic Protestant polemic.
1:23:19
Opening remark recap:
1) Trent: CCC definition, Bible citations, deductive argumentation, parallels with Malachi 3, non Catholic scholars , cites Calvin himself, early church fathers all in a PowerPoint presentation
2) James: references he doesn't believe the Pope believes this, the dogma was clearer during the reformation, ~ 10mins on indulgences, rebuts the 1cor citation , a claim is made Catholics in their belief in purgatory cannot have peace.
Reminder: The debate is on if the doctrine of purgatory is true
So what's the problem?
@@gideondavid30are you serious?
@@gideondavid30 no problem. Trent formulated an extensive positive argument for and James was mostly saying he disagreed and pointed to other things without addressing Trent's arguments. You could be atheist and at least acknowledge Trent was more prepared and James's arguments left you wanting . That's all
@@gideondavid30What’s the problem? Trent pointed out the problem at the beginning of his rebuttal. Instead of giving an opening statement to support his view, James just gave a very poor rebuttal.
Already listened through last week, Trent won!
The pope will keep you company in purgatory, enjoy
White saying that theologians today use different words of phrasings to describe a particular doctrine than how a theologian 50, 100, or 1000 years ago, therefore the doctrine is “changing” and therefore false is a bad argument and pretty ironic.
Because I doubt he would accept a Muslim apologist arguing that because the English used in a 1611 translation of the Bible is different than English in common usage today 400 years later is different, it means that the text of the Bible has been “changed” and is therefore false.
💯
As a protestant, there a lot of catholic doctrines that I can't quite accept but, judging by the comment section and by Trent's opening I think I can look forward to one of them getting knocked of the list today.
Did it get knocked down?
No my friend the thief in the cross. Jesus told him today you will be with me in paradise.
@@maciejpieczula631 I'm not sure. I've gone from previously scoffing at the idea to thinking that it could definitely be a thing.
I don't think I'll ever believe in indulgences or even a temporal aspect but I've definitely broadened my perspective.
@@josepharballo601 For one thing, "today" might not be literal: some translations of Acts 2:31 seem to indicate that Jesus spent the three days in hell and it would defeat the purpose of such sacrifice for Him to also be in heaven with the thief on that specific day.
For another, assuming what Trent said is correct about purgatory being simply a purification process between death and heaven (and necessarily a physical place), the process could take literally no time at all.
@@theskyisteal8346 "Jesus spent the three days in hell "
Keep in mind, any part of the day was considered a "day." Peter is clear regarding Jesus and where he went.
*18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,* 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3)
Strongs Greek 3857 for reference
paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise
Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos)
Usage: Paradise.
3.*that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f.* But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise.
Holy cow. I never dreamt it would be this big a smackdown. Trent, you absolutely dominated.
To be fair last June 2023 I had a “near death experience”.I have seen my soul infront of me in shape of blazing fire. When I was in that state, all I felt was regret and questioned myself “what I have done to myself” but at the same
time I dont find any reason why I need to go back to this present world. In terms of purgatory, I was in this place that seems like I was lying on a glass and under it was fire. It wasnt painful at all but I am suffering because there was a light, like a tunnel’ infront of me and I know thats where I am supposed to be going but I couldnt go. I am suffering because of my desire to be there but I couldnt. Then I heard the voice of a female voice that I recognized to be Mary and she told me to PRAY! PRAY! PRAY! I was comforted.
Wow amazing testimony
Wow! What a gift you were given to have a second chance to make things right.
Thank you for sharing this. Look into ‘Illumination of Conscience”, aka The Warning. I think it might happen soon. But you are blessed to already have a preview. Let us all PRAY PRAY PRAY as Mama Mary says.
That's crazy talk.
You had a dream, that's all.
Stop making stuff up.
You need to get out more.
Socialize, exercise and eat healthy.
Sleep enough hours and most importantly seek mental health therapy.
Great job, Trent! After my heart attack (and as a practicing, devout, cradle Catholic), I decided to learn much more deeply about my faith. You have REALLY helped me in my depth of knowledge and this closer to God!
If James White can't be bothered to create slides presenting his own argument in a cogent manner, how much time and consideration do you really think he gave to his argument rather than being an anti-Catholic reactionary?
He's been doing this for years. He knows the arguments.
@@gideondavid30Then there's no excuse for not being prepared. If he's been doing it for years he would have everything he needs and instead looks like an unprepared high school student with no material.
@david30 it's not about "doing this for years"; because so has Trent Horn lol. And it's not about knowing his arguments, it's about presenting it with visualization for his audience. He just didn't show consideration like @p.doetsch6209 said.
How often do high level debates include slides?
Just because Trent did something that you prefer doesn’t mean White was lazy.
Slides are not common in formal debate.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303The slides are symbolic. His entire presentation was lacking in coherency and substance. The slides were the least of it but demonstrate his lack of understanding for theological and technological preparedness.
White can consistently interrupt Horn and Horn allows him to finish, but when Trent does that White won’t let horn finish and has to make a dig a horn lol. Trent you won!
James is a great entertainer thats why some people think he got the upper hand in this debate but he did not give any evidence for his beliefs. Thank you James for turning people into the True Church, The Catholic Church
So true. Thank you James White because of your attitude towards our Catholic Faith draw a lot of people to dig deep to find out the truth that Our Lord Jesus founded the Holy Catholic church. May The Holy Spirit softens your heart that you will truly love God and love people. Less arrogant and more friendly to respect our Catholic faith.
Trent, you killed it. Excellent composure, excellent citing of primary sources, and excellent calling out/illuminating James' constant refusal to answer the most basic questions and adherence to the format. You're a seasoned debater and it really shows. Not trying to insult James, but he came off insecure and constantly tried to appeal to emotion waving books around instead of using primary sources to substantiate his claims.
45 minutes in and James White is completely outmatched, he’s rude and disrespectful, he is indeed offering scoffing as arguments but then has the gall to act like Horns criticism of his behavior is a shot across the bow and Horn is turning the debate to an uncivil tone.
No Mr White it is you and your snide tone throughout the entire discussion.
I am a Protestant that’s starting to lean towards Catholicism White is certainly helping me with my decision.
Were you even watching the video? Trent's snide response about White's opening statement said a great deal about his attitude being ungracious. It simply wasn't warranted on any level. I saw no disrespect from White but plenty from Horn and some quite weak debating methodology. A later response from Horn was full of deflections and lacking any scriptural weight including an irrelevant comment about Luther and the church they were in and its belief about baptism etc.
Purgatory was one of the easiest Church doctrines to accept because it lines up with the sense of justice we're given and particularly from a more OSAS evangelical environment, it makes sense of many passages. Like how can your sins be covered by doing good works if you're already saved, and how will you be punished for sin if you're already saved?
Maybe Romans 8:1, but my English isn't that great
@@user-bo3lc8fu5e But what if you are no longer in Christ? Even ignoring the unforgiving servant pr the fact that you can be a part of the true vine and still be cut off, there are people who were in Christ who then fell away. Paul also uses language that leads to this conclusion where faith is like a race you must run to the end lest having been in Christ you falter at the end
@@TheThreatenedSwanAgane, sorry for my English. But I think John 6:39 answers that?
@@user-bo3lc8fu5e And? We believe in that. Some _are_ predestined, and the faithlessness of man does not negate the faithfulness of Christ. He won't lose anyone through his own actions. People disqualify themselves through their own sin. You do realize John talks about mortal sin, right? That is sin that makes you lose salvation. You find the same language throughout the old testament where the point is despite the destiny of Israel as a whole, people could stray, but it was not God abandoning them it was the other way around
@@TheThreatenedSwanSo ultimately, God is not powerful enough to save me from my sin. It's ultimately up to my strength and my power to save myself. So I am equal to God then in power. Right?
Thank you for uploading this with FIXED audio. That last one was so hard to hear.
James White should receive more credit for bringing so many people to the Catholic faith!
😂😂.. yes, please…
Including is own sister
@@tonymedeiros5353 True.
this was very telling, james white argued everything but the actual statement being argued over
James white never actually rebutted anything trent said, never proposed an argument all he did was dodge topics and hand wave
I don't think White prepared for this debate at all. As a Protestant, I would have loved to hear a real debate on this subject.
Oh, yeah, sure. Trent will always be ready.
You did hear a real debate. White undermined the essential doctrine of purgatory from the get go. Either you didn’t understand the argument or purgatory. White made him admit he was interpreting the Corinthian passage in a unique way (neither Protestant or Catholic scholars interpret the passage that way) in order to get biblical proof for his stance. The other passages cited by Horn didn’t support purgatory,.
@@coloradodutch7480 , "the other passages cited by Horn didn't support purgatory."
Really?!
@TJMcCarty 👆
Being a smooth-talker OR being a hostile, arrogant attacker-debater
proves what ?
Catechism is a poor, inaccurate
replacement for Scripture.
There’s no good reason at all for
GOD’s Living to be replaced. None.
Faulty source (catechism) leads to faulty belief (purgatory) of a faulty religion (catholicism).
This debate isn’t a Sports competition. The only “winner” is anyone who “gets” GOD’s truth. The only “loser” is anyone who is lost without truth.
Holy Spirit, spirit of truth & wisdom
is needed to discern. Seek Truth.
Truth = Christ. Seek Christ.
⚔️ Truth v Deception =
Spiritual War⚔️
“Watch out no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name
claiming ‘I am the Christ’
and will deceive many.”
Or we can just keep on Protesting. Since that's the whole idea of being a Protestant.
I love that White was the one that chose to debate purgatory (Trent wanted to debate Sola Scriptura) and yet White didn’t even prepare an opening statement.
Trent you rock! James likes to throw out little off topic side jabs at the Catholic faith... one liners delivered with malice. No evidence of charity in his version of Christ
There is no version of chridt there is just christ. There are significant problems found in Roman Catholicism so they are going to be pointed out
This is actually hilarious. Trent has spent the whole debate discussing Purgatory and James White has spent the whole debate talking about everything but Purgatory.
Did you expect him to give evidence of something he doesn’t believe exist by using non-existent thing as evidence?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 no, i expected him to talk about purgatory. He spoke about everything except that
@@mattduin7144 like….the reasons he believes purgatory doesn’t exist…?
I’m just confused how someone can make a positive argument about something they don’t believe in.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 the debate topic is "is purgatory true". He didnt even talk about purgatory
😂 💯💯💯
Man I hate it when my opponents have developed positions and not the ones I think they have!
Seems like White just says many words, speaking in circles, adding Greek for no reason. 👀 Horn, however, was clear and direct in his delivery and got right to the point.
No reason?? Obviously you're not interested in accuracy.
@joycegreer9391 apparently, you didn't watch the video. I'm not even a catholic, but horn was more scriptural than white.
@@jennacalicchio4312 That's not even possible...lol.
James Whites main strategy is to simply sound convincingly. Make it SOUND like his own position is so orthodox and Trent is just following some weird old traditions of men. But
When looking at scripture, history and the argumentative strength itself without the rhetoric and Blabla, it’s clear that Trent doesn’t just win, he pulls the rug out from
under James Whites feet . He’s got no foundation to stand on other than his Protestant man made traditions
Except that Trent admitted his interpretation was unique and one of a kind. James explained the passage to Trent several times and Trent just glibly talked over it.
Even Protestants have to believe in some sort of instantaneous purgatory when they die because they are not sinless. So what's the big deal?
You make a solid point.
If they accept they are wrong on this it opens the door to many other things being wrong
I’m a recent convert to Catholicism from a reformed Baptist background, and as soon as I heard a Catholic explain purgatory I was like “Oh, well I’ve always believed that.” And it immediately stopped being a hinderance to my conversion.
@@Ineedtruth1 "My Mercy does not want this but My Justice demands it." What our Lord said to Saint Faustina regarding Purgatory.
@@Darth_Vader258 I actually almost mentioned St Faustina in my comment. She’s my confirmation Saint and her diary is incredible.
I am currently not a believer in purgatory but love Trent horns debates. Looking forward to learning
You know I would rather believe that there is a purgatory. Here's why, I have family members that had a drug addiction problem and ended up dying from drug abuse. They had been baptized and had a strong belief in God, but they just couldn't shake the addiction.
One who is an addict will do just about anything to get drugs but not go to church or turn to God for help because of their shame. So I find comfort in believing they made it to purgatory and that they are being cleansed before entering heaven, rather than to believe they were damned.
I would hope that any protestant that has dealt with this type of loss or even losing a loved one to suicide would also hope the same for their loved ones and not just think that they went to hell. That would be a pain I would not be able to easily move forward from.
Praying for our hearts to willfully be evangelized by the traditions of the church and the word of God with one faith and one teaching. In Christ our Lord. Amen
What parent is this that would let their child do evil and when confronted by their parent, the Child would say, "you can't punish me, because Christ died for my sins" So, they let him go unpunished? Or what judge, would let the criminal go unpunished, because the criminal said to the judge, "you cant punish me, because, Christ paid the price for my sins? Indeed, Christ did pay the price for their sins, nonetheless, there is still temporal punishment due to the sinner, though he may be saved.
Why was King David punished for his sins of having Uriah murdered and Adultery with Bathsheba? Wasn't Christ's sacrifice enough? Why does Paul say, God is not mocked, you reap what you sow to the Christians? .
King David lived many years before Christ’s sacrifice
I watched both debates live. I think you did a wonderful job at both, especially the one about Sola Scriptura.
It's not that White's presentation was bad - which it was - but it was more that his entire approach to the debate was utterly wrongheaded, in that he tried too hard to speak like a pastor. That is, I think he counted on his rhetorical skills to save him in this debate, which they clearly did not.
Also concerning were the many times I feel "the real James White" burst out. Comments like, "fangs out," and, "that was a cheap shot and you know it and everyone in the audience knows it too," as though JW has never done any such thing.
I couldn't help but notice, too, all the rude and immature little expressions on JW's face whenever Trent was speaking. Take note, and ask yourself if that's the behavior of someone "who understands who The Blessed Man is"?
I saw some of the debate on the channel of the church this was hosted in, but I could not find it later.
I'm glad this video exists in case the original was taken off or privatized on TH-cam.
Amazing job Trent. Considering most Protestants scoff at how the doctrine of purgatory is unbiblical, you made it seem very hard to argue against!
Really? He is using a one of kind interpretation of Corinthians in order to justify purgatory, and the only reason we found out is because James, after explaining three times what the passage means, finally went through the passage in detail and found out what Trent did. Note, this was a unique interpretation from both a catholic and protestant perspective.
Dear@@coloradodutch7480, using 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as a reference to Purgatory is a common Biblical text in Catholic circles. It seems so clear.
The "unique interpretation" was talking about a book that spoke of the "works" that are tested by fire, as the converts made by the pastors described in the first part of the chapter. And it was just an interesting proposition.
You can tell who won the debate by seeing whose comment section is still open.
LOL. I just checked James White channel on this debate and go figure…..comments section disabled😂
The AoMin yt channel doesnt have open comments on most or any of its videos. Some TH-camrs dont, who just choose not to devote time and attention to that.
@@bridgetazaz fair enough!
James white disables the comments on all his videos.
@@robbieg.3462 which is telling.
The prodigal son was welcomed by his Father. But then the Father took care of the son, purifying and cleansing him before entering the banquet
It is fascinating that White would keep referring to development of doctrine in Catholicism aa changes in belief.
When all 30 thousand variations of protestantism could be described as doctrinal developments by their advocates and heretical changes by their fellow Protestants.
Including the heresy of James White.
What is your source for 30 thousand “Protestant” denominations?
That is as gross a misrepresentation of the truth as a Protestant saying a Catholic worships the pope.
Not accurate.
Ortland has been taken to the woodshed for his misrepresentation of St. John Chrysostom's stance on purgatory.
I never can understand why so many Protestant preachers spend so much time studying and denying the Catholic Faith. Why if Catholics are wrong then why do they care!!!!! And in history how many Protestants have returned to the Catholic Church after studying the Church teaches.
They care for the same reason Catholics study Protestant positions: to help people come into the what they believe is the fullness of truth and God’s plan for their life.
Especially if you’re a Protestant who thinks Catholicism has a false gospel and thus Catholics essentially need to convert for the first time
@@stormchaser9738 I am very studied Catholic and have never studied Protestant doctrine because I would rather spend my time learning more about my Faith to come to the fullness of truth then live that truth as an example to non-believers. Because as St Robert Bellarmine said and encourages us to say everyday. "I believe all the truths taught by the Catholic Church" An effective way to fight off the devil in times of temptation. I have never heard James White talk about what he believes just what is wrong with what the Catholic Church teaches. St John Henry Newman came to the Church by reading Catholic teachings to prove it was wrong and came to the realization that the Catholic Church was correct and is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ. Maybe in time James White and others will receive the same grace and return to the fold.
They care
Because Protestantism only holds if Catholicism is false
Problem
For protestors is they now have over 40k different denominations protesting each other
An absolute mess
All White kept on doing was explaining the Calvinist position on salvation and assuming it was true....so his conclusion was Purgatory was false. Ridiculous.
Sad to say, Purgatory exists.
It is the mercy of God extended to all of us. Amen.
You should have pressed James on the issue of forgiveness of sins: Why would Jesus bestow on the Apostles this unique power, if all sins were "automatically" forgiven just by one's intellectual act of faith? How do you get your sins forgiven, mr James?
Trent you a true hero to defend our faith, Love and God bless you❤❤❤❤
poor James doesn't want to have to change his life around to follow Christ. much easier to convince oneself of assured salvation
Salvation is clearly assured.
@@brianverslues302Sure kiddo, but I wouldn't bet my eternal soul on it.
Lol you don't seem to understand Trent's position if you joke about this
Even St. Paul didn’t think like that. He said to workout your salvation in fear and trembling and wasn’t assured of his salvation .
Yay! Been waiting for this!
Good job Trent. Trent brought many biblical texts to the table - many from the Old Testament
James did 2 things.
1. Ridiculed the Catholic faith - (ridiculing is a Protestant thing since they have nothing constructive to say and deny what the bible says)
2. Would engage only in discussing one bible text, everything else was rubbished
He is totally out of his depth when up against Trent. If he wasn't so damned proud, he would be humbled by it. Alas...
Great debate! Trent completely demolished White! Viva Cristo Rey!
Rome: "It's Biblical & early church fathers believed in the concept"
Prots: *removes books in the Bible supporting purgatory. "See, it's not in the Bible😂 #solascriptura and our modern doctrines are more right than the early church fathers who were taught by the apostles"
I'm so glad White got fully exposed for his sophistry during cross examination.
Actually it was Trent that got exposed using a unique interpretation of Corinthians in order to justify his position. Neither Protestants nor Catholics interpret it that way.
@@coloradodutch7480 ?
Great debate, thank you for posting this Trent
I think the best reason to believe in this doctrine is that the Jews did and still believe in praying for and to people who have passed on. And the fact that there is support for purgatory in Maccabees.
"You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews." *[John 4:22]* Our Lord did not break away from Judaism; he fulfilled its prophesies and completed it.
The line protestants often use to argue against purgatory is almost always reworded and misstated the same way they jumble around the straightforward message of The Epistle of James.
They often say as White did in this debate, that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But this is not what that passage says.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. *[2 Corinthians 5:8-9]*
The passage as reworded by White is not the same as it appears in the scriptures. He has changed the words around so that it fits with his beliefs.
Also, if being absent from the body means one was present with the Lord, why then does the very next passage state that we must labour whether absent or present in the body?
It wasn't until I started watching the How to Be Christian channel that I realized how often White and Durbin change scriptures like this.
I'm glad Trent called White out on this, but I wish he would have pressed him a bit more.
Are you under the impression that the scripture you provided means we labour when we are absent from the body?
Interesting.
It says, “wherefore we labour”….this seems to be present tense.
“That”….this seems to mean…so that, or so then
“Whether present or absent”….this seems to say whatever state we will be in…future tense…
“We may be accepted of Him”….again…in that future state.
How, exactly, are YOU interpreting this?
Better yet, has “the church” interpreted this? Or was your post your own private interpretation?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
You know...
You are correct about that specific passage.
It does not say what I thought it did. Or at least, I need to research [2 Corinthians 5:9] more.
With that said, it does not change the fact that [2 Corinthians 5:8] - the previous passage - does not say that there is no purgatory. It does not say what James says it does, and protestants usually use that faulty interpretation against the teaching of purgatory.
As an aside, [2 Corinthians 5:9] "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." is against faith alone.
@@franciscorafael2582 we can agree that no passage explicitly denies purgatory.
We are saved through Jesus, He did what we could not do.
Jesus❤️✝️ He took out place, "it is finished" He said.
At about 1 hr and 14, Trent Horn literally makes his case on the assumption that Paul was mistaken about the Day of the Lord. Peter, the supposedly first pope and founder of the catholic church, said at the end of 2 Peter that Paul teaches things that are hard to understand, to which the UNEDUCATED and UNRULY twist to their own error, as they do the other scriptures. Meaning, Peter considered everything Paul wrote to be legit. Thus, to claim Paul got something wrong is to claim Peter got it wrong about Paul. No matter your feelings toward James White, Trent lost with that statement. The statement completely undermines the foundation of the Catholic church he is trying to defend.
Had the joy of seeing this in person and meeting Trent. Suffice to say, he is extremely intellectual and introvertedly extroverted as well.😂 All jokes aside, Trent won in my book and it was a lot of fun.
At some point, we have to stop taking James White as a serious apologist. These debates were completely embarrassing for him. Juvenile, stale intellect.
His debates from many years ago against people like Bart Ehrman or Muslim apologists or members of the LDS church were pretty good from what I remember.
But you’re right. I mean this as charitably as possible but White is not a young man anymore and it seems like his mind is beginning to slip.
Where is that point?
Who is going to stop him?
He is his own authority!!!
r protestants!!!! Doctrine and apologetics do not depend on the age, hability or intelligence of the presenter!!!
"Serious apologist" is a contradiction.
@@zacharynelson5731 His debate with Ehrman was terrible he just kept ranting about postmodernism, bringing up the Quran and saying that low error rates in medieval copying by trained copyists mean that the copying of the oldest manuscripts must be likewise even though it was done by amateurs.
Thanks Trent, I always like watching your debates and discussions.
Trent also won the debate about Sola Scriptura.
As a french catholic !
Congratulation Trent !
Strongs arguments
outstanding debate. i think this is the first one i ever watched through. great job Trent. God bless.
If Catholicism is wrong, then Christ’s promise went unfulfilled and his prophecy failed. If Catholicism is wrong, Christianity is false and we have no business bothering with any of this.
If “Christianity” is wrong…..
Would make a ton more sense.
The message of GOD is not about religion. Comparing Catholicism to the promise of the messaiah is wrong. If you are considering Catholicism as the promise, then you completely ignore the other one, Judaism. If you cannot understand the way and concept of GOD then you will end up in a religious belief. And to go by your understanding, it seems like for you the promise of messaiah is only a religion called Catholicism. Then what about Judaism ? It all started in Judaism. What do you call such Jews from Judaism who have believed in the promise of the messaiah?
God did not create a religion. God just has one thing, that is His only way. Then men changed that. Men begin to create religion out of the GOD way. This was done due to men's desire for their own wants and needs. They could not accept GOD's true way and begin to create their own way & doctrines.
If you really want to get to know GOD, one must understand what Jesus said when He left this earth , He has sent the Helper. Most Christian has only the first part . I.e. the Helper is with them but not the second part. I.e. in them. Most Christian does not have the Holy Spirit in them but just with them. He is a stranger. So a Christian who does not know the Holy Spirit is nothing but the same as being a worldly person. Further, to understand GOD wisdom, we must enter the new way of Worshipping like the apostle Paul preached. We are to come to the new way of living in Spirit.
Then you will understand between GOD wisdom and men's knowledge.
Do what the apostle commanded in Romans 12:1-2. Otherwise we will only be a religious person rather than a godly man.
These two are different. A religious man is a slave to his religion. But a godly man has freedom of grace and is free to truly listen to the Helper.
Christianity is not Catholicism, Roman Catholicism has Roman origins, some of which are pagan, Christianity is actually the love of God which was manifest to the world through his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16
@@adammatemba1207nope most Protestants say that because they don't like second temple judiasm or like taking some verses literially they take metaphorically etc.
Bro Calvinists always do this thing where they deny that you believe what you say you believe. Instead they tell you what you believe and then act all smug when they knock down the strawman they set up.
Happened a few times in this debate and its exactly how they argue against my religion too. Crazy to see.
Well done and much love from an LDS brother 🙏
LDS?!
@@t.d6379
Vein injection
@@t.d6379Mormon
@SarahD-uy5pf I know exactly what LDS means, but we are not brothers. I had to check it wasn't an abbreviation for something else, surely it was!
We are not brothers in anyway shape or form you heretic.
LDS are not our brothers and sisters in christ
Was looking forward to this debate but it became pretty painful and almost unbearable to watch with how little James White actually knows about what the Catholic Church teaches, how doctrine develops and is understood within Christian history or even the difference between doctrine and Dogma. He used a lot of linguistic gymnastics to incorrectly twist what the Catholic Church believes into something unidentifiable just to fit his agenda without proving anything except his lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church. Sadly, he was defensive from the beginning while failing to clearly identify his position.There were so many holes in his debate. I thought Trent was very articulate, clear in his well-rounded points and basically has history on his side.
I know this is a sinful attitude because we all know how it would go, but I would love to watch Trent debate Mike Winger
I’m pretty sure Trent has been trying to get him to debate and Mike Winger won’t.
That's what I was thinking because I know Mike is aware of the videos that Trent makes in response to his videos. There was once a time that I would watch Mike for hours back when I was Protestant. It was Mike's attitude that first made me see the anti-catholicism in myself (that was based on nothing but ignorance) Now when I hear Mike speak about Catholicism I hear nothing but anger and sarcasm. He tries to come across as extremely confident in his position but I think it speaks volumes if he isn't willing to debate. This is where I have to give James some credit for at least trying.
After hearing Trent's opening statement I had no idea how this was going to last for two hours. But I made it through the whole thing and it was quite enjoyable.
Good debate, thanks. I like Hebrews 12:29 "God is a consuming Fire" and how the Seraphim are the "burning ones" to see how we are each called to become On-Fire Christians and therefore must go through this purgation this purification until we are glowing hot on-fire with His love and purity and holiness. Refiner's Fire, it is our one desire, to be holy, like Him. Amen.
58:36 "I thought you had said there was something else going on there." That moment really went over his head. There was, he just already made his point.
Great job Trent, you really beat James bad.
I haven't watched a ton of debates and may very well be wrong, but the read I have is this:
Trent went out of his way to present his argument and use strategies that didn't look like a canned Counsel of Trent episode being thrown at White (disciple making interpretation of 1 Corinthian, avoidance of the unforgivable sin, use of the phrase 'unpleasant discipline'). I imagine either because of this or in anticipation of this White just made it about, "Purgatory isn't true, because it is incoherent if you hold to Penal Substitutionary Atonement" only Trent didn't tee that up for him, so it didn't look like it lined up super well. Trent's weakest moment was when James cornered Trent on the 'neat' interpretation and wouldn't drop it. Trent got stuck defending someone else's argument, and in turn White got to try and discredit Akin as well.
As a Catholic, I think Trent defended purgatory well, and I think he held to the debate topic better. There were times that I felt like he was really trying to dialogue with White and say, "aren't we closer than you are making it seem." James seems far more interested in spotlighting the division, which makes sense because classical Protestantism needs a justifiable division for its existence.
I would say Trent 'won' the debate. The cost though was that people on the fence who aren't familiar with different theories of atonement might wonder if James was on to something about it detracting from Jesus' sacrifice because they don't realize that for James the cross was punishment. So, to James, purgatory is claiming Jesus didn't suffer enough (wasn't punished enough). I disagree with his theory of atonement, but I can sympathize with why he finds the idea of post-mortem punishment offensive and this is an olive branch he has no interest in reaching for.
@@sonsofpolaris6102 Thank you for the feedback. I agree that that is the correct interpretation, and that Trent countered the "it wasn't enough" argument by bringing that up. I'm happy to grant that. In my estimation "destroyed" is too strong of a word. To do so one would have to show the issues in Penal Substitution and that would be a debate in and of itself. I'm obviously armchair quarterbacking and I would have certainly done worse! And I don't think Trent did poorly. I just find that PSA is what makes purgatory largely incomprehensible to some of my protestant family.
Really appreciate this debate..